1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:11,020 You're listening to the PianoPod, where we talk to the brightest minds in the industry 2 00:00:11,020 --> 00:00:16,760 about how they're bringing the piano into the 21st century. 3 00:00:16,760 --> 00:00:20,040 Hello and welcome back to another episode of the PianoPod. 4 00:00:20,040 --> 00:00:21,040 I am Eric Hunter. 5 00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:22,040 I'm Clara Zhang. 6 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:26,600 I'm Yuki Mi Song. 7 00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:30,560 Our guest today is Madeleine Bruiser, pianist and author of the highly acclaimed book, The 8 00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:34,200 Art of Practicing, A Guide to Making Music from the Heart. 9 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:37,640 Madeleine is also the founder of the Art of Practicing Institute, which is dedicated to 10 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:42,480 helping musicians improve their playing by releasing physical and mental tension, often 11 00:00:42,480 --> 00:00:47,520 helping them to deal with performance anxiety or even recover from physical injuries. 12 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:51,160 She has helped thousands of musicians around the globe, and we are very lucky to have her 13 00:00:51,160 --> 00:00:52,160 here today. 14 00:00:52,160 --> 00:00:55,160 Everyone, please welcome Madeleine Bruiser. 15 00:00:55,160 --> 00:00:57,160 Welcome. 16 00:00:57,160 --> 00:01:00,360 Thank you so much. 17 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:02,680 Thank you very much. 18 00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:08,680 So I wanted to start with a little personal anecdote about my experience last summer with 19 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:13,360 Madeleine's Art of Practicing Institute, because it was very influential on me. 20 00:01:13,360 --> 00:01:18,200 And I'm going to try not to go on too long because we want to let Madeleine talk. 21 00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:24,960 But it was one week I was able to attend because it was online because of the pandemic. 22 00:01:24,960 --> 00:01:29,960 And it was completely transformative for me. 23 00:01:29,960 --> 00:01:37,880 I had kind of been dwindling down my performing experience the last few years, focusing more 24 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:42,480 on composition and just kind of feeling like I wanted to get out of it. 25 00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:50,720 And that week at the Art of Practicing Institute just really turned things around for me. 26 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:56,800 And on the very last day, the last thing we did was everybody went around and said how 27 00:01:56,800 --> 00:01:59,160 they felt about things, what they got out of the experience. 28 00:01:59,160 --> 00:02:03,560 And it was supposed to be really quick, like 30, 60 seconds, because there are a lot of 29 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:04,560 people. 30 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:09,040 And I just had this very tearful, just, oh, this is fine. 31 00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:13,400 I found myself again going on for minutes and minutes. 32 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:16,400 And I wanted to thank you for that first, Madeleine. 33 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:23,320 And I hope this interview will inspire people to check out your materials and have similar 34 00:02:23,320 --> 00:02:25,880 revelations. 35 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:32,720 Let's talk a little bit about the Art of Practicing and the Art of Practicing Institute. 36 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:36,240 Can you tell our listeners exactly what it is, what is this all about? 37 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:37,840 What do you do? 38 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:44,480 You know, basically what I do is help people connect to themselves so that they can connect 39 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:47,760 to the music and to their audience. 40 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:57,880 And this whole approach that I call the Art of Practicing is in segments, but they all 41 00:02:57,880 --> 00:02:58,960 blend together. 42 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:05,880 So first of all, it's about how to use your body and being much more aware of the body 43 00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:09,960 and how it works and what it feels like. 44 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:13,720 So there's a whole lot of information about that. 45 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:16,920 And a lot of it is surprising to people. 46 00:03:16,920 --> 00:03:20,920 Some of it is surprising to everybody, actually. 47 00:03:20,920 --> 00:03:28,200 And I think that's because it developed through many years of meditation practice in which 48 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:35,660 I learned to sit still and notice what's going on inside of me instead of being kind of unconscious 49 00:03:35,660 --> 00:03:39,840 and reacting to all this energy without even relating to it. 50 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:44,760 So what kind of things do you find that everybody is surprised to learn about physically? 51 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:51,440 I think the most universal thing that is surprising to every pianist, and it also applies in the 52 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:59,000 work I do with other instruments sometimes, is basically how to sit effectively at the 53 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:05,120 piano so that your energy is really available to you. 54 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:14,760 And I think what is not commonly understood at all is that the relationship to the ground 55 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:15,760 is central. 56 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:24,200 In other words, just as with an athlete, let's say a baseball pitcher pitches the ball, they 57 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:26,820 don't like lean forward and pitch the ball. 58 00:04:26,820 --> 00:04:27,820 They get rooted in the ground. 59 00:04:27,820 --> 00:04:31,760 They kind of bend their knees a little bit, and they have that power that comes from the 60 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:39,880 ground, and then they have power in their arm to deliver the pitch. 61 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:45,040 And I often demonstrate this to people in workshops by having the whole audience deliver 62 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:50,600 a punch into the air in an upright position and then compromise their posture, deliver 63 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:55,680 the punch, and everybody notices that their power is compromised. 64 00:04:55,680 --> 00:05:02,880 What's really great about this at the piano is that there's tremendous physical pleasure 65 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:08,080 from the feeling of the play of forces within the body. 66 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:09,600 The feet are solid. 67 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:12,840 The sitting bones are solid on the bench. 68 00:05:12,840 --> 00:05:21,880 And then when you spring from the keys, for instance, in the loud chord, you have a third 69 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:25,320 contact point, which is the bottom of the keys. 70 00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:32,720 And so as you play and different movements are happening, there is a lot of energy going 71 00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:37,940 through the body that's very powerful and feels really great, and it gives you a lot 72 00:05:37,940 --> 00:05:41,720 of momentum in delivering the performance, basically. 73 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:48,560 Whereas if you're kind of like this, which I used to do myself, moving around a lot in 74 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:54,920 reaction to how the music is affecting you instead of just being there for it to enter 75 00:05:54,920 --> 00:06:02,880 into you and to go through, if you do this, you can't really feel even the arm weight 76 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:11,440 very clearly and can't feel the energy that comes back into your arm from the bottom of 77 00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:13,040 the keys when you do this. 78 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:18,600 So you're putting energy out all the time and you're not getting anything back in. 79 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:24,000 This is really transformative for every pianist I've worked with. 80 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:27,560 And as I said, with other instruments, it always applies to. 81 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:34,160 Now, these days, people are working with the Alexander technique quite a bit, which definitely 82 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:38,200 is very helpful and along the same lines. 83 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:45,380 But I do think that what I'm doing at the piano is unique because it's very, very clear 84 00:06:45,380 --> 00:06:51,640 and defined exactly what the relationship is between the seat, the sitting bones and 85 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:52,640 this. 86 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:59,560 So that they're all interplaying and you really feel like something is playing in your body. 87 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:03,920 And the whole point of the approach is that music lives in the body. 88 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:08,500 So we have to be aware of the body and really connected to it. 89 00:07:08,500 --> 00:07:16,480 So how you sit at the piano has a huge impact on what's going on inside of the body and 90 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:19,920 what your options are for movement and for self-expression. 91 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:27,920 OK, so we're really talking about the efficient use of energy, basically, right? 92 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:28,920 Right. 93 00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:30,640 It's basic biomechanics. 94 00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:35,760 And I think that there's just I think the issue is, which was certainly the issue with 95 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:44,120 me until I was 37 and discovered this physical approach, is that music is so powerful in 96 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:45,120 itself. 97 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:46,620 It's so emotional for us. 98 00:07:46,620 --> 00:07:47,620 We love it so much. 99 00:07:47,620 --> 00:07:52,720 And so we get swept away with this very intense feeling. 100 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:58,600 We just, you know, react like this, which is completely understandable as if you were 101 00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:00,240 dancing to the music. 102 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:02,720 But we're not dancing when we're playing. 103 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:08,760 What's happening is the music is dancing within our body and we make room for it in there 104 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:13,760 and can really tune into that dance that's happening on the inside. 105 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:19,280 And all that energy is free to play out and really carry to the listeners. 106 00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:26,080 I never thought of this before, but it's almost like we have to balance the subjective experience 107 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:31,240 of our emotions as we feel the music, right, with the kind of objectivity of the body. 108 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:32,240 You know? 109 00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:36,440 Well, actually, I think the body is the most subjective experience we have. 110 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:39,680 It's intensely personal. 111 00:08:39,680 --> 00:08:44,960 And we actually cut ourselves off from what it has to tell us and what it can do, what 112 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:51,400 it can do for us, what it can give us when we don't use it according to fundamental biomechanical 113 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:52,400 principles. 114 00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:57,840 I mean, it's designed to be used in a certain way, and athletes are generally taught that. 115 00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:05,460 Musicians generally are not so much because we consider ourselves artists and we are artists. 116 00:09:05,460 --> 00:09:11,320 And so we feel like, well, an artist is a completely different kind of person from an 117 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:12,320 athlete. 118 00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:17,960 But when you're playing an instrument, whatever the instrument is, you are an athlete. 119 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:20,600 Doesn't mean you're not an artist, obviously. 120 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:25,360 The athletics is in the service of the art and of the human being who is making the music 121 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:28,000 and who's listening to the music. 122 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:33,720 So I think it's my experience is that what's going on in the body is intensely subjective 123 00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:40,920 and that our biggest problem in our life in general is not having the space or time or 124 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:45,280 encouragement or guidance to tune into what's happening inside of us. 125 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:47,720 So then we're not conscious of how we feel. 126 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:52,000 So then we get mad at so and so when it's not their fault or all these things happen 127 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:55,440 or we don't do justice to the music. 128 00:09:55,440 --> 00:09:59,820 And the other thing about music in terms of the body, there's two other things. 129 00:09:59,820 --> 00:10:02,840 One is the sound has to live in the body. 130 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:07,560 So you have this play of physical forces from the movement. 131 00:10:07,560 --> 00:10:12,960 And then there's all this sound which is supposed to move us. 132 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:18,520 If we're not moved by the music, literally, physically inside, viscerally, we can't move 133 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:20,460 our audience. 134 00:10:20,460 --> 00:10:26,720 Everything depends on us having a deeply personal connection to the sound on the visceral level 135 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:30,320 and really being able to tune into that. 136 00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:35,680 Most often what happens is students are told, well, the phrase goes up and it comes down. 137 00:10:35,680 --> 00:10:36,680 So play it like that. 138 00:10:36,680 --> 00:10:38,520 And they're operating from their head. 139 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:43,800 It doesn't mean that the phrase doesn't go up and down, but it means that within that 140 00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:52,160 general up and down, there are continuous flow of specifics of this harmony, that harmony, 141 00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:55,880 how they're juxtaposed, what that does to you as a person inside. 142 00:10:55,880 --> 00:11:03,120 And this kind of artist makes people go wild basically. 143 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:07,840 Because then that body energy goes directly into their body. 144 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:10,680 That's what happens in a performance. 145 00:11:10,680 --> 00:11:14,240 So how do we cultivate the mental state for that? 146 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:19,240 And what are some obstacles that we might encounter along the way? 147 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:26,600 So what is now very widely talked about is mindfulness. 148 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:30,600 I actually wasn't trained that way as a meditator to talk about mindfulness a lot. 149 00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:33,440 It was more about awareness. 150 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:38,880 But mindfulness is an excellent word because people understand it now. 151 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:41,120 It's part of the vernacular. 152 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:47,320 And it really amounts to practicing connecting to yourself, hopefully on a daily basis, so 153 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:50,600 that your life works better basically. 154 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:54,440 You don't trip over things and say the wrong thing and all of that. 155 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:56,840 But you have space in your mind. 156 00:11:56,840 --> 00:11:59,880 So the general problem we have is that the mind is very crowded. 157 00:11:59,880 --> 00:12:00,880 It's very busy. 158 00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:04,640 It's thinking about yesterday and tomorrow and next week. 159 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:06,280 And it's feeling all this pressure. 160 00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:10,320 It has to do things and it has to do them by a certain time. 161 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:15,040 And it's got a lot of worry, like, well, what if that person really didn't like me because 162 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:16,120 of what I said? 163 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:17,240 Should I apologize? 164 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:18,240 Maybe I should. 165 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:19,240 Maybe I shouldn't. 166 00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:20,240 And it goes on and on forever. 167 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:23,440 So this is the busyness of the mind. 168 00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:28,840 Mindfulness is a practice that allows you to tune into your natural ability to be mindful. 169 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:34,080 In other words, to be aware of what's happening right now. 170 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:41,040 So the practice of, for example, noticing your breathing and then when you notice that 171 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:43,440 you're thinking, you come back to your breathing. 172 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:50,040 It's a very basic fundamental practice, but it trains literally the brain to return to 173 00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:51,040 the present moment. 174 00:12:51,040 --> 00:13:00,400 It's interesting that it also, when the brain opens, when the mind opens and relaxes, the 175 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:02,080 body starts to relax. 176 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:04,960 The perceptions open, the heart opens. 177 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:08,440 It's like you take a little vacation. 178 00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:15,400 May I jump in because I really like the word mindfulness because it's a really it word 179 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:16,400 right now. 180 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:23,720 You know, every yoga class you take or meditation class you take, there's this mindfulness is 181 00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:25,800 the word that you hear a lot. 182 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:35,840 Is it a connection between your body and what you do and your senses? 183 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:39,520 Mindfulness is the practice of letting the mind settle down and relax. 184 00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:46,800 And then naturally, the natural acuteness of your sense perceptions just opens up. 185 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:49,960 Always there, it's always ready to be there for you. 186 00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:55,800 But when the mind settles down, you can suddenly see and smell and taste and touch, actually 187 00:13:55,800 --> 00:14:01,880 feel things and respond in a more natural and beneficial way. 188 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:07,160 So that includes how you touch the piano and your connection to the sounds that you're 189 00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:11,200 playing, that you're hearing coming out of the piano. 190 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:17,480 Being aware or mindful of that actual note, those actual sounds, instead of being in your 191 00:14:17,480 --> 00:14:21,400 head and sort of singing in your head, there's a really there's a world of difference between 192 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:25,760 hearing the music in your head while you're playing and actually being able to hear it 193 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:29,000 as it's coming toward you out of the instrument. 194 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:32,200 Oh, yeah, wonderful description. 195 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:33,200 Yeah. 196 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:39,720 And that sounds more really organic, true to yourself instead of just reading a note 197 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:46,080 and like becoming sometimes you feel like you're part of just a machine, you know, just 198 00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:48,360 reading a note and play certain ways. 199 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:54,840 But that might if you have used that mindfulness of playing, performing and practicing, I feel 200 00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:56,760 like it's more organic approach. 201 00:14:56,760 --> 00:14:59,920 Yes, the whole thing is very organic. 202 00:14:59,920 --> 00:15:01,640 I'm glad you chose that word. 203 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:02,640 That's excellent. 204 00:15:02,640 --> 00:15:03,640 Thank you. 205 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:05,480 Can you explain? 206 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:11,440 I feel like people might be able to understand how mindful awareness can bring you back to 207 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:15,680 the present moment when you're like worried about something that you have to do tomorrow 208 00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:18,720 or some little mistake that you made yesterday. 209 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:21,880 I'm talking about kind of minor anxieties. 210 00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:28,800 What about something like long term trauma or like severe performance anxiety or something 211 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:32,080 that happened to you long ago in the past that's stuck with you? 212 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:34,800 How does mindfulness help with something like that? 213 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:36,200 I'm really glad you asked that. 214 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:44,080 I think that there's a line between meditation practice or mindfulness practice and real 215 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:45,800 healing work. 216 00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:50,880 I mean, I do feel from my experience, definitely that mindfulness is a healing practice. 217 00:15:50,880 --> 00:15:59,640 But if you want to go really deep with a very serious issue, psychotherapy can be essential. 218 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:02,880 There's a practice called the healing code. 219 00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:07,220 We teach at our programs and I teach my students a practice called focusing with a capital 220 00:16:07,220 --> 00:16:12,080 F where you close your eyes and tune into what's going on inside the body. 221 00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:19,120 That can be very revelatory where you get in touch with things on a kind of like a dream-like 222 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:27,480 level where imagery can arise and you realize your own wisdom is really in there. 223 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:32,200 But in terms of being traumatized, let's say the common example, the parents or the teacher 224 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:40,080 or both abused the young musician, the little kid. 225 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:44,480 Most likely that person's going to need some psychotherapy to really work through that 226 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:46,800 because it goes too deep. 227 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:48,160 It damages too much. 228 00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:50,840 It's too big of a wound. 229 00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:55,880 What I have heard, which I really believe is that when trauma happens, it happens in 230 00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:58,720 the presence of a person who hurts you. 231 00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:05,320 And having the presence of another person who heals you is necessary because that person 232 00:17:05,320 --> 00:17:07,920 is giving you the opposite message. 233 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:14,120 And you need space to feel your feelings instead of telling you that they don't matter. 234 00:17:14,120 --> 00:17:15,240 That's really important. 235 00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:18,760 And I also feel that community is essential. 236 00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:23,320 For instance, with the Art of Practicing Institute programs and with the Masterclass series, 237 00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:27,320 we have time for discussion or a conversation. 238 00:17:27,320 --> 00:17:31,300 So when people can have a conversation and start talking about their fear of performance 239 00:17:31,300 --> 00:17:36,960 and what happened to them and what they're afraid of and all these things, this is really 240 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:42,520 support that can heal also because you're not alone anymore. 241 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:45,040 And I think musicians are beginning to talk about this more. 242 00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:47,600 They're not hiding it in the closet so much. 243 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:48,600 It's really, really important. 244 00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:49,600 Yeah. 245 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:50,600 Yeah, I agree. 246 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:54,280 And just speaking from my own experience, I'm glad you pointed that out and reminded 247 00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:59,720 me because we would have some long meditations in the morning, the beginning of every day, 248 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:02,880 which would be kind of intensely personal experience. 249 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:07,880 And then there would be multiple group sessions following that where we got to kind of decompress 250 00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:12,720 and sometimes figure out what it all meant, bounce ideas off of, you know, that's absolutely 251 00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:14,720 critical to the process. 252 00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:23,120 I was just going to share a little bit last year when I started with Madeline and I remember 253 00:18:23,120 --> 00:18:25,720 those sessions, you know, it was right before COVID. 254 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:27,680 We didn't even know how serious it was going to be. 255 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:31,960 You know, it was just everything, you know, when you this is so fitting because I think 256 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:33,680 we're going to release this in May. 257 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:37,640 It's mindfulness, awareness, minds, right? 258 00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:40,760 And this is still new for me. 259 00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:44,020 You know, I have I always said I was atheist. 260 00:18:44,020 --> 00:18:47,000 You know, I was not really spiritual and grew up in Asia. 261 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:49,360 I was, you know, I had a mother. 262 00:18:49,360 --> 00:18:54,000 So and I felt pretty confident with myself, you know, when I perform. 263 00:18:54,000 --> 00:19:01,360 But I also realized when I studied with Madeline, there's a little bit of me that I think it 264 00:19:01,360 --> 00:19:06,760 was during those group discussions that I finally realized I was being that way. 265 00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:10,720 So out there because I was trying to prove something. 266 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:18,240 And because, you know, I grew up in Asia, in China, and I didn't have a very traditional 267 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:19,640 training background. 268 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:24,920 And so I was always there to fight, you know, and so I somehow made it in New York. 269 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:31,520 And it's just, you know, I feel like everything is just when you Madeline, when you're talking 270 00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:38,400 about census with Kimi and I'm like, mind blowing, you know, like my mind is just because 271 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:44,460 when how I knew of Madeline's work from years ago when I was in grad school in Massachusetts, 272 00:19:44,460 --> 00:19:48,240 I remember I had this one time I didn't perform well or something. 273 00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:53,920 A teacher gave me her book at Madeline's book and I held on to this book for a very long 274 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:54,920 time. 275 00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:57,920 And last year, you know, everything was going well in New York. 276 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:02,240 And then two years ago, right before COVID, there was something traumatic happened in 277 00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:03,240 my life. 278 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:07,920 You know, it's just crazy personal things, but I don't even know how to deal with it. 279 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:11,920 And then all of a sudden, I decided to go to a meditation retreat. 280 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:17,000 And the day after I returned, Madeline kind of just showed up, you know, like, and it 281 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:18,760 was through PTC. 282 00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:21,600 And then I got the chance to study with Madeline. 283 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:24,720 It was just so inspiring. 284 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:32,240 And I remember when I performed the finally after the discussion that I realized I was 285 00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:33,760 able to just be myself. 286 00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:36,600 I didn't have to prove to anyone anymore. 287 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:38,800 I can perform when I want to. 288 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:43,920 I didn't have to have too many concerts, too little concerts. 289 00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:48,280 And then one thing about the body too, and I have more questions later on, but I will 290 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:50,220 just share this a little bit. 291 00:20:50,220 --> 00:20:55,920 As a person who has really experienced this, I'm also an amateur ballet dancer. 292 00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:59,800 And then I remember what Madeline described when I am on stage. 293 00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:00,800 I'm so hyper. 294 00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:01,800 I'm so excited. 295 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:04,960 It's almost the same thing as my ballet teacher tells me. 296 00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:07,600 Clara, you're too jumpy. 297 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:12,480 So yeah, so this is really amazing. 298 00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:16,640 I'm sure we'll have more to talk about, but thank you for letting me share that. 299 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:17,800 You're welcome. 300 00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:18,800 Thank you. 301 00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:24,840 So, Madeline, let me ask you, what are some problems that people or your students typically 302 00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:25,840 come to you with? 303 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:30,400 You know, what are some common issues that people want to work on with you? 304 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:33,960 Well, injury recovery is definitely one of them. 305 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:34,960 Sure. 306 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:38,840 And physical tension in general. 307 00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:42,320 And performance anxiety is definitely one of them. 308 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:47,040 And then there's the general feeling like, I just want to play better than that. 309 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:48,040 Yeah. 310 00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:52,680 You know, I'm at a point where I'm not settling for this. 311 00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:59,640 And that can take people a long time to get through, but it takes a certain maturity to 312 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:05,120 be able to say, all right, I'm not really where I want to be. 313 00:22:05,120 --> 00:22:08,440 I think I should try to go further. 314 00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:10,760 And they have some sense that I can help them do that. 315 00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:12,040 So it's those three things. 316 00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:18,160 And it always comes down to being disconnected from the body, the mind, the heart, the sounds, 317 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:24,600 the rhythmic flow, all these, you know, just not not having received the full guidance 318 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:27,720 that they needed. 319 00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:28,720 Those kinds of things. 320 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:29,720 Sure, sure. 321 00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:30,720 Totally. 322 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:36,440 I just want to take a minute and validate something because you just you just reminded 323 00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:44,360 me how difficult it is when you have this instinct that something, not even if something's 324 00:22:44,360 --> 00:22:48,400 wrong, but something could be better or something needs to be different. 325 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:52,320 Or, you know, it's just an intuition that you have at that point that you want to be 326 00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:56,040 someplace different than you are. 327 00:22:56,040 --> 00:23:02,180 And having made my own progress in certain ways, I just remember it's so difficult when 328 00:23:02,180 --> 00:23:06,800 all you have is that feeling and you don't know even what the end result is. 329 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:10,600 You might have some ideas about what it is, but once you get there, you find out, oh, 330 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:12,240 no, I really didn't know. 331 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:14,200 The only thing that was true is the instinct. 332 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:15,200 Right. 333 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:19,820 And I just want to take a minute to acknowledge the bravery of everybody that starts down 334 00:23:19,820 --> 00:23:21,820 that path. 335 00:23:21,820 --> 00:23:23,640 I couldn't appreciate that more. 336 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:24,640 Thank you very much. 337 00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:33,200 And I face that every day in my life because my art form is teaching and I'm always coming 338 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:38,960 up with new understanding of what it is that I actually teach. 339 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:44,400 Actually in the last several months, I've been through a kind of major upheaval because 340 00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:49,200 I've gotten more connected to myself and realized I don't want to live in New York anymore. 341 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:50,480 Oh, my goodness. 342 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:58,160 And we, my husband and I have looked at three possible moving places and it's been a wrenching 343 00:23:58,160 --> 00:23:59,960 process. 344 00:23:59,960 --> 00:24:05,640 And just a couple of three weeks ago, we made our decision after visiting Philadelphia, 345 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:09,160 we want to live in a suburb where it's green and pretty and quiet. 346 00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:12,280 I'm a little too old for that noise. 347 00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:15,400 Wow, Madeline, way to come on the show and drop a bomb. 348 00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:16,400 I know. 349 00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:20,840 We didn't know we were losing you, Philadelphia. 350 00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:23,920 And the internet, right? 351 00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:26,640 But thank you for appreciating me. 352 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:31,920 But it's been a process of really having to come to terms with who I am inside, what I 353 00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:36,840 really want and how to go about doing it. 354 00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:41,160 And it's one of the, I mean, it's one of the biggest challenges I've ever faced. 355 00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:46,380 And to do it at my age is also feeling like a major challenge and pick up stakes and go 356 00:24:46,380 --> 00:24:48,240 somewhere new. 357 00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:51,640 Although we have wonderful friends there, which is a major plus. 358 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:54,640 But the process has humbled me a lot. 359 00:24:54,640 --> 00:25:02,360 It's made me very aware of what kind of bravery it does take to go through any kind of transformative 360 00:25:02,360 --> 00:25:03,360 process. 361 00:25:03,360 --> 00:25:04,360 Yeah, totally. 362 00:25:04,360 --> 00:25:06,360 I'd be grateful for it. 363 00:25:06,360 --> 00:25:11,400 Because when you step into your transformation, you're right, you don't know where you're 364 00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:12,860 going to end up. 365 00:25:12,860 --> 00:25:17,120 I thought we were going to end up in Northampton, Massachusetts, where it was just going to 366 00:25:17,120 --> 00:25:18,600 be peaceful all the time. 367 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:21,080 And we sit in front of the fireplace and read. 368 00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:23,080 And I teach a few students. 369 00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:26,080 That sounds wonderful. 370 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:29,640 I realized that there's so much more to me than that. 371 00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:35,440 I would be walking away from my whole musical lineage, the feeling that the cultural lineage 372 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:37,920 that is in a major place like this. 373 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:38,920 Right. 374 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:43,760 And really, we tried Connecticut, it didn't feel like anything for us. 375 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:46,680 Because we thought it would be good, it would be close to New York. 376 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:49,720 And we just decided to go a little further away. 377 00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:52,440 And unbelievable. 378 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:54,920 Just everything clicked about it. 379 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:55,920 Everything. 380 00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:56,920 Wow. 381 00:25:56,920 --> 00:25:58,960 Suburbs, the city itself, the friends. 382 00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:01,520 It's just unbelievable. 383 00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:03,040 And it is a major cultural center. 384 00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:09,280 And so it's very brave, I recognize myself, to actually step forward into this unknown. 385 00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:13,600 I mean, who am I going to connect with in the music world? 386 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:17,160 I don't know these people. 387 00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:26,380 So we had a program in 2003 called Unleashing Natural Piano Technique. 388 00:26:26,380 --> 00:26:33,580 And it was five week series for pianists, four pianists, and they each had three workshop 389 00:26:33,580 --> 00:26:37,440 sessions and four private lessons within five weeks. 390 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:42,480 And one of these people came because her teacher asked her to do it because she needed to recover 391 00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:44,160 from an injury. 392 00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:50,040 I had to completely toss out her whole physical approach to the piano, start her out with 393 00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:55,360 you know, A, B, C's kind of just one finger at a time, then adding the arm movement. 394 00:26:55,360 --> 00:26:59,640 And halfway through after the second workshop, she came up to me in tears. 395 00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:01,640 She said, I don't know what to do. 396 00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:03,800 I can't play the old way anymore. 397 00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:05,600 And I haven't gotten to the new way. 398 00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:07,800 Give her a big hug. 399 00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:09,440 I said, that's how it is. 400 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:10,440 You're going to be all right. 401 00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:11,440 She got through it. 402 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:14,000 She recovered from her injury. 403 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:16,200 And she was very brave to do that. 404 00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:17,200 Yeah. 405 00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:19,840 Dropped out in the middle and said, this is too much for me. 406 00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:25,600 But she knew somehow that there was something going on that was right. 407 00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:28,000 And just like you're right, you have to trust your instinct. 408 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:34,720 There is again, in the body, we know the life in us knows what it needs to do. 409 00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:36,600 It knows the direction it needs to go in. 410 00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:37,600 Oh, wow. 411 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:38,600 I'm speechless. 412 00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:45,460 Well, I want to take a minute to thank you for what you do. 413 00:27:45,460 --> 00:27:52,420 Because when I was 21, I had a teacher named Mark Sullivan who worked with me for just 414 00:27:52,420 --> 00:27:54,800 one month over the summer in a summer program. 415 00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:56,160 He was from California. 416 00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:58,060 I wasn't out there yet. 417 00:27:58,060 --> 00:28:03,120 And at that point in my life, my technique needed a complete rebuild. 418 00:28:03,120 --> 00:28:06,120 And he took it upon himself to do that. 419 00:28:06,120 --> 00:28:10,760 It was such a generous gift with a student that you only have for one month but who desperately 420 00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:11,760 needed it. 421 00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:14,760 And I had so much that I wanted to say that couldn't come out. 422 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:17,760 And you take that chance on your students all the time. 423 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:22,640 And as a teacher, I just can't give you enough credit for that. 424 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:23,640 Thank you. 425 00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:25,120 I think it's my personality. 426 00:28:25,120 --> 00:28:31,360 I just have this need actually to be very direct and go straight to the heart of the 427 00:28:31,360 --> 00:28:34,560 person because I always believe in them. 428 00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:37,520 I believe in every person who shows up. 429 00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:39,760 And my job is to help them believe in themselves. 430 00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:47,880 So I have to go for that heart of that person and know they can do it and be very encouraging 431 00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:50,180 and gentle through the process. 432 00:28:50,180 --> 00:28:55,200 Even while I'm being very clear, no, not like that, like this. 433 00:28:55,200 --> 00:29:01,200 It just has to be very sharp and on the dot while being aware of what that human being 434 00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:02,600 is going through. 435 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:03,600 I'm not perfect. 436 00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:06,360 And nobody can be perfect with such a big task. 437 00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:09,440 I think there's no perfect teacher just like there's no perfect parent. 438 00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:17,840 You're feeling this desire to help this person and you can't know everything. 439 00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:21,160 And actually I learned so much from teaching. 440 00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:24,040 Practically every time I give a lesson, I'm learning something. 441 00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:27,480 Yes, that's what I love about teaching. 442 00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:28,480 Yeah. 443 00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:29,480 Yeah. 444 00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:30,480 It's very creative that way. 445 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:32,200 So we're stepping into the unknown also. 446 00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:34,920 I mean, you know, I'm still a performer. 447 00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:39,120 I gave up performing at 37, which is the biggest shock of my life. 448 00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:42,880 But I'm still a performer, which means I go for it. 449 00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:48,680 You know, I'm a communicator and I just, you know, that's what I need to do with myself. 450 00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:52,420 That, especially if somebody doesn't even believe in themself yet and you're trying 451 00:29:52,420 --> 00:29:59,800 to help them get there, that requires a tremendous amount of energy and emotional investment. 452 00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:04,240 Over the course of your career, have you ever suffered from burnout or just feeling drained 453 00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:08,280 from like this constant expenditure of energy that way? 454 00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:09,280 Oh, definitely. 455 00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:14,800 I mean, last year's summer program, you know, we did it online for the first time. 456 00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:19,280 I was just remembering yesterday what a joyous creative process it was for four months to 457 00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:20,280 happen. 458 00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:22,600 It was very collaborative. 459 00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:28,520 I had a lot of help, support from the other teachers, but it was a whole new ballgame 460 00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:31,880 and we had so much to learn about technology and everything. 461 00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:34,240 Program was very successful when it was over. 462 00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:38,120 I was thrilled with it and I was completely exhausted. 463 00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:40,400 But I had scheduled a break. 464 00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:43,160 I knew that was going to happen. 465 00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:46,080 So the month of August was, you know, I taught some people. 466 00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:50,520 I mean, there were people away, but I just didn't have any of the stuff to do. 467 00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:52,440 I wasn't planning the next program. 468 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:56,440 It was just, and I got a lot of rest. 469 00:30:56,440 --> 00:31:00,640 Just last week I took a week off, which was phenomenal. 470 00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:02,280 And I do that several times a year. 471 00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:09,040 And this is also from the meditation practice and community and teachings are always encouraging 472 00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:12,400 you to periodically take a whole retreat. 473 00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:17,840 You know, it's great to do it daily, but when you take a whole week for yourself and you 474 00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:24,760 don't answer email and you don't engage in work, there's nothing like it. 475 00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:28,120 I think that we don't realize that we need to be replenished. 476 00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:33,680 And I just read the other day that Americans are almost universally sleep deprived. 477 00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:36,120 And overworked. 478 00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:37,120 And overworked. 479 00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:38,120 Exactly. 480 00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:43,140 And we don't even realize what it's doing to us and that there is another way. 481 00:31:43,140 --> 00:31:46,880 So that's why I also gradually encourage people to get into meditation practice so that they 482 00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:51,920 can get more in touch with their need for rest and space and relaxation. 483 00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:55,320 That's actually going to be the key to higher accomplishment. 484 00:31:55,320 --> 00:32:00,680 And in fact, when I started meditating, I didn't feel like practicing the piano for 485 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:01,680 two months. 486 00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:02,680 So I didn't. 487 00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:09,680 When I came back with a completely different experience, I would stop for 30 or 60 seconds 488 00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:13,520 sit there on the bench, do nothing, and then see what I wanted to do next. 489 00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:17,160 And I would notice things much more like how my hands were working. 490 00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:21,440 I would notice the sounds more, all kinds of things I noticed. 491 00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:27,400 And the result was that three hours of practicing, I accomplished more than I had previously 492 00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:29,080 in privacy. 493 00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:34,880 So this is what I think people need to understand that just as the body works a certain way, 494 00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:36,500 the mind works a certain way. 495 00:32:36,500 --> 00:32:41,240 It is designed to have rest built into its life. 496 00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:45,520 So that your mindfulness practice, that's a little mini rest. 497 00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:49,360 Then you stop in the middle of practicing, you say, what do I want to do next? 498 00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:52,840 Instead of constantly driving yourself, that's a little mini rest. 499 00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:57,400 Then it's every once in a while, you take a bigger break and give yourself a kind of 500 00:32:57,400 --> 00:32:58,400 a break. 501 00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:06,680 This, the human being needs this so much. 502 00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:09,480 This concludes part one of our interview with Madeline Bruiser. 503 00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:14,240 Tune in next time for more on the art of practicing, including a technical demonstration at the 504 00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:36,680 piano.