You're listening to the PianoPod, where we talk to the brightest minds in the industry
about how they are bringing the piano into the 21st century.
Last time we spoke to Ben Laudy of ToneBass.com about the origins of this great new resource
for high-level piano education.
And now, the conclusion.
How do you recommend as a piano teacher to use ToneBass for students?
That's a very good question.
And it's something we're always working on and improving because the platform was not
originally intended immediately for some obvious practical use for students.
Its original intention was more for the kind of capable amateur.
These are the atomized amateurs who live all among us, but we don't know them yet.
Maybe they end up being our adult students.
I had many in New York.
But they're the ones who really often didn't get a taste of this education, or it's been
decades since they got to be in those environments.
So that was the original target, and that helped shape the original framing of the platform.
But as we started building it, it became clear that there's many different audiences that
would be attracted to this product.
And so we sort of internally refer to them as personas.
And so there's beginner personas, casual and serious amateurs, there's conservatory students.
Really I see that as a kind of high school, college age, sort of potentially pre-professional
track or at least very serious about practicing.
And then there's professionals of different stripes, including teachers.
And teachers are often performers too, and performers are often teachers too.
So it was hard to distinguish those.
But there is a community of pedagogues, as we know, and you are among them.
And New York has a very strong community with the Congress, with the open forums that you
guys have created, courses, MTNA.
And these teachers are also often not directly connected, especially if they're in Topeka,
Kansas, to what's going on in Colburn or Curtis.
So we realized there is an intrigue there.
And frankly, I have to say, we learn a lot from them too.
We're in communication with teachers all the time who are interested in Tomebase.
They want to...
Could we always have a teacher discount, by the way?
I should just advertise that.
I don't know exactly what it's at right now, but I think it's...
That's great.
I don't want to cite the wrong figure, but in the past it's been 30%.
If you're a teacher and you want to subscribe to Tomebase, email our support team if you
don't find the teacher discount online and we'll get it to you.
But we're in dialogue with them all the time.
In fact, many are actually giving us feedback and telling us their experiences and sharing
them.
So I don't see it as just like teachers are our audience and we're creating a product
for them.
I see it hopefully as a kind of continual collaboration and community building where
we can learn from them too.
Because guess who doesn't know how to teach kids?
Concert pianists.
Guess who doesn't know how to teach kids?
Juilliard and Curtis professors.
They have no idea.
They're the worst at it.
I mean, maybe there's an exception.
Okay.
I didn't say that.
Maybe they say that.
It's the hardest thing.
And it's often the most thankless thing because you wouldn't get these great virtuosi who
who many of these professors I think would be the first to admit that they get the spoils
of what many nameless teachers around the world have produced.
And yes, there's a lot of bad teaching out there.
It's true.
And that's partially because these there's not enough structures of training in pedagogy
and sharing of knowledge.
They're there.
They're not always utilized successfully.
And there's just a lot of teachers who are sort of stray from this and do their best.
But piano teaching is damn hard.
And teach being around kids is just as hard, whatever you're teaching them.
So put those two together, especially with I don't need to tell you guys this, especially
with like short attention spans.
And it's one of the most remarkable achievements if you can take a child and turn them into
a great musician who actually wants to do it and doesn't hate doing it.
On top of it all, even if you train them well, they might hate their lives.
It's so hard.
And so those who have done that should be getting like presidential medals of honor
or something and they're not.
And work over candy.
Three of us are so great with children.
I'm still waiting for my presidential medal.
I know.
I mean, I commend you.
I've done it.
I don't think I did it as well as I could have.
I could have dedicated myself more to it.
I would have had to dedicate my life to it because it deserves that.
It's not a freelance thing.
And so I really appreciate you guys.
And so, okay, so back to the question.
What can what can tone bass do for teachers?
We are developing more and more structured materials that I think actually fill in a
lot of gaps that typical piano lessons might not cover.
So when I had lessons and I had some good teachers as a kid, I had some ones that were
probably watching TV at the same time that they were like, you know, teaching me hot
cross buns.
But in any case, there was this sense that like you need to learn this next piece.
You need to learn this next piece.
And oh, yeah, something about theory and something about just general musicianship maybe.
But you need to learn this next piece and you need to program it into your fingers.
And then you need to regurgitate it on stage.
Okay, well, I'm not saying this is everybody.
I do think it's common.
And I understand why it's common because there's an expectation from parents that they're
little kid has to play a recital at the end of each season.
And so then teachers are pressured into this kind of like repertoire driven track.
Right.
I'm assuming you guys have been there.
I felt that pressure, too.
And parents can be demanding sometimes they put their pain for lessons.
They put them in there for a reason.
Yeah, they want to see results.
Why are you sitting there clapping all day or teaching them solfège or helping their
ears out or getting them to improvise things?
What is that all about?
Right.
And I think that matters and I think every great musician who's ever made it to a high
level had some element, whether it was nurtured in them or whether they were just born with
it of what I would call general musicianship that isn't specific to the piano that you
develop in your ear and your mind and your heart and your soul, whether it's rhythmic,
pitch, phrase, a sense of line and expression, a sense of collaboration, whether you're playing
with others or yourself the way different parts combine.
For me, that's the most important thing.
And then piano is just one tool we can use to express that core musicianship.
I don't think that's taught enough, even if teachers know it.
And I don't want to say like, oh, I know it and we're doing it.
It's just as hard for us.
But we do have the advantage of not having to respond to the demands of teach this child
a piece so that they can impress their grandparents and their friends.
So I hope one of the tools I think we can help teachers with is have these wonderful
– we just released 24 ear training labs on Bach subjects taught by a Juilliard music
theory professor, Benjamin Grow.
And it's wonderful.
But at one at the same time, you're learning all of these fugue subjects, just how they
sound and you're reverse engineering them and you're sort of dissecting their anatomy
and putting it in your voice and putting it in your fingers.
And suddenly it's both sight reading and ear training and music history and culture
all at the same time.
And it's not just for pianists.
It's about being a better musician.
Okay, well then you watch those.
You could show a kid some of those and now they're singing Bach subjects in solfège
or in scale degrees.
Now they want to learn – then you show them the rest of the piece.
Now they want to learn a few.
All right, so I think that can help teachers.
We have Penelope Roscoe has a whole series of Pillars of Piano Technique.
She has a giant book published by Peters called The Complete Pianist.
So we have a kind of I'd say a bridged video version of that.
And there's labs that go with it.
So you can actually practice with her.
And she teaches just fundamental touches.
And she's somebody who sort of like doesn't belong to any particular school.
It's not – she's not Taliban.
She's not – not that she hasn't been informed by them, but she doesn't like belong to any
particular lineage or tradition, which I think is an advantage.
She sort of reworked a lot of these same ideas herself.
And she teaches them very clearly and in a British accent.
So it must be true.
Oh yeah.
So that's great.
And then there's improvisation materials.
Noam Savan I have to shout out to.
He used to be a –
I saw it.
At Juilliard.
And now he actually has his own – he invented his own degree.
I think it's the only one of its kind in Stuttgart at the music school there.
If you want to get a master's in piano improvisation, historic improvisation, go study with Noam
Savan in Stuttgart.
He taught these classes that were insanely popular at Juilliard and Curtis.
I remember all my friends taking them.
I was an idiot and didn't for some reason.
And they're coming out after semester and they're improvising like Baroque tocatas.
And so we have a six-part series called Intro to Improvisation.
Why would that be useful to teachers?
Well, you can't learn improvisation from six lessons, but you can learn – first of
all, you can be inspired to want to.
And you actually learn a lot.
And we have deluxe workbooks and all kinds of interactive tools and resources during
the video.
And then you get to watch Noam do it.
And so you're seeing somebody who's like one of the best historical improvisers in
the world.
And then from the overhead cam, from the side cam, from the teaching cam.
And he's showing you, breaking down his process when he actually approaches something that
you might have thought unteachable.
If you see somebody improvise, you're like, either you know that language or you don't.
But he actually is able to sort of introduce you to the process that one could take oneself
from like me, a kind of bad non-improviser.
I play music from a score, classically trained.
But watching Noam's videos enough has inspired me to start attempting this.
And we actually have a few different historical improvisation series of these kinds.
So I think these are actually some of the most useful resources for teachers, because
it's not directly about learning your next piece.
It's about becoming a better musician at the keyboard.
And so I would promote ToneBase for teachers, especially because of that, not to mention
it's nice to share long form videos of Garrick Olson and Simone de'Nercy and another great
artist John O'Connor teaching Beethoven and Chopin and Bach.
Whether it's the piece you're learning or not, watch this great artist do this and you're
going to be fascinated and you're going to want to play more.
So there's an inspiration element too.
And also just as teachers, teachers want to learn from other teachers.
That's who teaches them.
They don't get...
Sure, of course.
There's no teacher of teachers who's not a teacher themselves.
It's a contradiction.
So teachers have to learn from each other.
They're both always in the process of teaching and learning at the same time.
It's one in the same process.
So just the library of videos of repertoire and technique from all the great artists we've
worked with, those are invaluable, I think, to teachers just to watch.
But in terms of just direct structured resources, we're still building them.
So I wouldn't say tone-based is like, you could just send your students there and be
like, all right, my work here is done.
And it shouldn't be that because we don't want to replace teachers.
We're not in the business of that.
Thank you.
I was going to ask you that.
Don't steal...
Well, we've had comments on...
We've got some Facebook comments.
I think they just miss...
I don't blame people for seeing it this way.
They just see the product as some kind of video surrogate for the irreducible experience
of in-person teaching.
We're not trying...
Not only are we not trying to take that away, we're trying to promote that because, first
of all, a lot of teachers are having to do grunt work, teaching technique and things
that actually tone-based might be able to take care of.
Hey, go watch some of this so that in your lessons, I can work with just you and me personally.
The student and the teacher on your specific problems because tone-based can't do that.
So there's a lot of general knowledge about playing the piano that I think teachers spend
a lot of time on at the expense of the really specific personalized needs of their student.
So actually tone-based can fill that kind of general knowledge void and then teachers
can be left to focus on the student in front of them.
So I hope it's a resource for teachers too to allow their lessons to be more enjoyable.
You can watch lessons with students.
You can send them home.
They can come back and be like, you can discuss what they watched.
They could practice along with these things.
And the people using tone-based, they're not going to quit their lessons.
More likely, they're going to sign up for lessons.
Now they need to take the next step.
So I hope that...
It seems to me like it's true that teachers see this as promoting what they do and is
valuing what they do and contributing to it.
Thank you for clarifying that.
That's very helpful and thank you.
So my last question would be, I want to know the future of tone-based.
There's so much possibility here, as you mentioned.
So I specifically want to know who are you thinking to interview?
And right now, currently you have piano and guitar, but are you going to increase more
instruments?
Maybe a famous duo or trio, quartet.
There's so much potentials.
And which pianists are the tone-based wishlist?
Well, name your favorite pianist and they're on my wishlist.
And I have them in a spreadsheet somewhere.
I'm stalking them.
I know weird statistics, like number of Google hits of different pianists.
It's creepy.
I'll tell you who...
I was lucky enough to work with Manny.
By the way, he's Manny the moment you meet him.
He's kind of like Seymour.
It's immediate friends.
And so everyone can look forward to those releases in July.
He basically learned a lot of late Chopin that he'd never played during the pandemic.
Did you know that Manny Axe never played the Chopin Bach role?
Wouldn't you have assumed that was part of his repertoire?
He just added it.
And so we have him talking about it among many other Chopin works.
And then he performed the two Opus 55 Nocturnes for us.
So he's no longer on the wishlist.
He's real.
We're working with Anne-Marie McDermott in August.
A wonderful artist.
She'll be just finishing up at Bravo Veil and then headed to LA and teaching the Bach
A minor English Suite.
So that's going to be awesome.
I will say that I don't know when it happens, and I want to say when and not if, but I'm
in touch with Marie Joelle Perez, who's one of the just great phenomenal pianists of the
last generation.
Chopin, her Schubert Opus 90 impromptus are the best I've ever heard.
So go listen to Perez playing those.
I've been in touch with her.
She has this festival in Portugal.
She is developing a lot of her own media.
I don't know if she's going to work with Tomei's immediately, but it feels like it's on the
horizon.
And she's pals with people who are seemingly just out of reach like Martha Argrich.
And so I've made these kind of connections.
Also Ricardo Castro, who won Leeds in 93, has been a wonderful contact for me and has
been very supportive.
He was a Tomei user, and we had these user interviews to try to improve the product.
And I'm sitting there talking to Ricardo Castro, and I didn't know who he was at first.
He's like, oh, yes.
I was in a duo with Maria Joelle Perez, and I just visited Martha yesterday.
She's friends with my...
She loves my son and this.
And I'm like, okay, well, maybe one day not only Ricardo, but Martha Argrich is top on
the list.
Look, I want to get Zimmermann.
He's off limits practically.
I want to get Sokolov.
He's off limits.
Kissen is going to cost a fortune.
So they're there.
And I think in terms of just next great pianists, we're close to them.
Now there's a lot that are at that caliber, but more accessible.
And I do think you're going to be seeing more and more of them in the next year.
I could go through names, but honestly, I don't want to sort of tease any of these out
because there's not immediate prospects, but there's a lot on the horizon.
I'm in touch with managers.
I'm in touch with some of these pianists directly, and it's a timing thing.
They're busy people.
But a lot of them, they seem to all know about tone-based now, and they've seen the great
artists we have, and there's more and more of an interest from them.
And we're starting to get emails from conservatory professors at CIM and other places saying,
can I teach for you?
So we're starting to get calls from Curtis, like, can we collaborate?
So there's a growing interest in what we're doing.
I think that's really great.
I hope that keeps up.
For business, so there's all kinds of pedantic business things going on internally that we're
trying to make the best decisions for how to sustain the company, stick to our mission,
not betray the mission in favor of some get-rich-quick scheme.
That wouldn't work anyway for our product, but we are a startup.
You know what startups do?
They usually create some bad product, and they fail after a couple of days.
And it's just not the kind of enterprise that you usually see this kind of classical music
education thriving in.
So it's a challenge to figure out how do we grow at this kind of rapid pace while also
staying true to our commitments as teachers, educators, artists, and so on.
In terms of expanding and growing, I'd say tone-based is next step.
Of course, since the beginning, after piano was meant to be, okay, let's finish the other
instruments, it's been a timing thing because now we're thinking maybe strategy-wise, we
want to broaden the instruments we have.
I don't see classical piano and jazz piano as being separate platforms.
I see them as part of one history of the piano.
And we already have had some great jazz artists on live streams, and I want more and more
of that content.
So that might be where we invest our energies.
There's some thought of maybe strings as a whole being next, or violin and then cello,
or maybe high strings and low strings.
The issue there is, well, guess what the two major amateur instruments around the world
are piano and guitar.
Yes, there's Suzuki violin and cello lessons, but as you get to the other orchestra instruments,
you see fewer and fewer just ordinary people who might subscribe.
So this becomes a business challenge.
Maybe the next platform for orchestra instruments is about excerpts, and we try to sell it to
conservatories and we get all the great principles to teach those excerpts.
That's just an idea that's floating around.
And maybe we go beyond music.
I mean, one of the founders, you can't be a startup founder and not have ambitions.
So part of their ambitions is to not only expand beyond classical genres, but to expand
beyond music and potentially teach you cooking or chess or arts and crafts of different kinds.
Now these tone-based versions of these things exist.
So once we get there, then it's going to be a lot of competition and maybe partnerships,
or who knows what it will be like.
But this kind of space of a creative online education, high level, was already happening,
and then COVID happened, and now it's about to just thrive.
I mean, masterclass was already there, now they're doing Outlier, and Rasmussen is starting
Outlier if you haven't seen it.
So you can go take calculus and psychology courses and get credit.
So we're not accredited yet, but maybe we move to a model where we're actually able
to contribute to online education.
And that opens a whole sequel episode that we'll have to do together where we talk about
the complexities of brick and mortar educational institutions versus online education, because
there's a lot of potential problems there.
There's a lot of potential achievements there.
And so I think that's the new frontier.
And COVID rapidly accelerated our journey there, and I think the 2020s are going to
just see a flourishing of this kind of thing.
And I'm just happy that ToneBase might be able to contribute in some small way to that.
Wonderful.
What is your advice for young and upcoming musicians in this current technology-based
and musical environment?
I probably don't need to be the one to tell them because they're already doing it, but
you have to know technology.
You have to not just use it, but I would say learn how to produce with it.
I could have done that more, honestly.
I mean, you might look at me and say, oh, look at this tech musician guy.
I still feel like a dinosaur around what the 23-year-olds and the 18-year-olds know and
are doing.
So I don't think I need to impart that advice, but besides consuming your technologies and
your media, learn how it's made and start making it yourself.
So get Garage Band or Ableton or whatever, if you're a teenager, and get a MIDI keyboard
and start making your own jams.
Hook up your piano to it and learn classical music, learn how to improvise and create new
kinds of music with it.
Create music we've never heard, compose stuff, be creative.
And then I used to say this.
I used to say, say yes to every opportunity.
That's always a fun thing to say.
I would refine that a bit.
I still believe in that up to a certain age, and then you have to start saying no.
But of course, you need to be picky.
So don't say yes to everything.
But don't think that because you're comfortable in one narrow sphere and you're good at that
one thing, that that's going to take you where you think it's going to take you because it
never will.
It's going to be something unpredictable out of your control that will define your life.
And the more experiences you have, the more skills you pick up, the more things you try,
the more people you meet in music and in life, the more that's going to set you up for happiness
and success in the future.
So that would be my advice to kids is not just practice.
You should practice, but if you don't like practicing, tell your teacher and have an
honest conversation about why you don't and stop this passive aggression where it's awkward
because I don't like doing it and then you make me because piano lessons should be the
most amazing thing that every kid has.
It should be a gift and a treasure.
So if that's not working out for you exactly how you like, probe that a bit, explore a
bit and try some things out and also cut your teachers some slack because they're trying
hard and they've got a tough job.
So yeah, those are just a little coda to my advice for kids.
Maybe for those students that doesn't want to practice, they can come to watch some tone
based videos and listen to some piano podcast.
That's why I wanted to practice ultimately, even though I never liked practicing and I
never did it very well.
It was because not anybody forced me to.
That never worked very well.
It just made me mad and upset and it made my technique like, I have to do this.
It was because of discovering the music.
Really the music did it.
Listen to it.
Compare recordings.
Listen to these dusty old men and women of yesteryear who've just imparted to us some
of the great recordings in music history of any genre and try to follow in the score.
Scores are free.
I'm SLP.
Go right now.
Find a piece you're playing or find a better piece or maybe a more interesting difficult
piece by the same composer.
Go on YouTube at the same time, find a rare recording by Corteau or Horowitz and follow
in the score while you're listening.
I didn't get to have any of that access in 1999 or 2002 or whenever when I was, I had
to order a VHS of Horowitz playing and wait for three weeks before maybe I can watch a
grainy copy of it and I'd had to go buy scores at the store and it's just, it's all right
there.
Don't miss this opportunity.
All right.
Let's move on to rapid fire.
I feel like we've had a very long in-depth productive conversation.
Time to be totally silly.
So let me ask you, Ben, what is your favorite comfort food?
Biscuits and gravy.
Oh, nice.
You're from Texas, right?
With sausage gravy, I should add, but I'm from Texas and it's the most caloric thing
you can possibly eat.
I've studied the IHOP menu.
Okay, sorry.
Lightning round.
Let's go.
All right.
Number two, cats or dogs?
Cats.
Okay.
What is your word or words to live by?
Open authority, but also think about what you're questioning and think about how you
might be an authority yourself and not know it.
All right.
That'll keep us busy.
What is the most important quality you look for in people?
Kind of openness and not just open-mindedness, but I like people who like people and who
give people the benefit of the doubt.
Wonderful.
And what is the worst quality in people that you want to stay away from?
I've tried to be a Christian and befriend all my enemies, so I don't know if I have
an answer for that.
But don't be boring.
I don't think anybody's boring.
It doesn't matter if you have a monotone voice and maybe you're not charismatic.
Those are some of the funniest, most interesting people.
There's no excuse for being boring.
I don't care what your genes are.
There's something interesting about your life that you can share with us.
So if you're being boring, I just ask you to practice harder.
Okay, wonderful.
Thank you.
Name three people who inspire you, living or dead.
Well, my mom.
It's her birthday tomorrow.
Just speaking of gracious people.
Happy birthday.
And I guess I should be very basic about this.
My father, I wouldn't be a pianist without him.
Not that he is one.
He's a chemist, but it was his Chopin first nocturne that he was attempting as a child.
Yeah, I told Seymour this.
That was partially why I was fascinated by the piano and got into it.
And just as a human being, I admire him endlessly.
Oh, third.
Okay.
Well, I should say that my partner, Sasha, I could say the same things about her.
And I look up to her as well.
She's a fantastic pianist.
Sasha Cosman.
And she keeps me whole.
Okay.
Which historical figure or composer do you want to learn, take lessons from, if she or
he were alive?
Of course Bach.
But I would say that if I could modify the question to give a more interesting answer,
I want Bach to be my sort of musicianship composition teacher.
Maybe he can tell me how to tune and stuff.
And then I want Gould on my other shoulder.
Oh my gosh.
And Glenn Gould can sort of, first of all, he'll be talking with Bach.
And I think they'll actually be friends, not enemies like a lot of people say.
And Gould will just be there to sort of show me things that I don't think he would ever
teach.
He wasn't a teacher.
But if he were alive, first of all, he would be younger.
If he was alive, he would be younger than Seymour Bernstein, Jerome Lowenthal, Leon
Fleischer, Gary Grafman.
He was born in 1932.
He passed away at the age of 50.
If Gould were here, he would have already started tone-based of some kind.
He was really into media.
And it wouldn't be because he taught you lesson, but we would film him and Bach together in
the same room, just being in their presence and sharing in their magic.
And so I don't even remember your question, but those are the ones that I would want to
hang out with.
Name one piece in your current playlist.
Well, my girlfriend is Russian-American, so I've been listening to a lot of Russian, like
old sort of Soviet film soundtracks.
And so there's some wonderful music.
There's a film that you have to go see, or you have to, I don't know how you'd see it.
It's called The Ordinary Miracle.
And there's just a wonderful soundtrack to that.
And I have it stuck in my head all the time.
It's in some playlists because I hear it in the car.
But guess what's really good?
Soviet film music.
Because guess why?
Those composers were really well-trained and they were compensated for their work.
And it's incredible.
If you like Looney Tunes and Bugs Bunny, you know how good orchestral music can be with
film.
It's everywhere in Russian film.
I mean, just the soundtracks by themselves are worthy of stage performance.
But I'm actually thinking more sort of pop, sorts of Russian soundtracks.
But anyway, that's kind of random.
Well, we come to the very last question.
You get only one song or piece to listen to for the rest of your life.
What is it?
I mean, I just out of duty and obligation and consistency, I have to say the 1981 Goldberg
Variations recording by Graham Gould.
I just knew it.
I mean, it was the only thing I listened to.
I'm not exaggerating.
It was the only thing I listened to for two years.
I went to Planet Fitness and just bounced along to the canons.
And it made me want to learn the piece.
And after that, I actually didn't listen to anything for a while.
So I would probably just take that with me to the desert island or wherever.
Well, so you just answer one of the questions that we were going to ask.
Okay, no, no, you can still ask.
Yeah, no, no.
I mean, it's perfect.
And I can understand you.
I even did an MRI or something with the Gould's edition of Goldberg.
So well, very, very last one.
Music is blank.
What is your music?
Music is the interior of humanity.
Out loud, made external.
Thank you so much.
Dream that.
That is so beautiful.
I'll leave you with that.
How about that?
A little bit of profundity.
Ben, thank you so much.
So I think that concludes this episode and this season of the Piano Pod.
Thank you so much, Ben Lottie, for joining our show today and sharing your wisdom, expertise
and humor.
And as always, thank you so much to the audience for tuning in.
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Or you can also email us at the pianopodnyc at gmail.com.
All right, everybody, we hope to see you next fall for season two of the Piano Pod.
Until then, take care.
Bye bye.
Thank you so much, Ben.
Thank you, Ben.
Hi, everyone.
Clara, Yukimi, Eric.
It was a lot of fun.
I hope to be back some other season, maybe.
For sure.
Definitely.
There's a little ride coming to an end.