1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:10,240 You're listening to the piano pod, where we talk to the brightest minds in the industry 2 00:00:10,240 --> 00:00:15,160 about how they are bringing the piano into the 21st century. 3 00:00:15,160 --> 00:00:19,240 Hi, Josh. Welcome to the show. 4 00:00:19,240 --> 00:00:22,240 Hi, thanks for having me. 5 00:00:22,240 --> 00:00:29,920 So Josh and I are actually old buddies. We go way back to our undergrad days at Eastwood's 6 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:42,480 School of Music and University of Rochester. We've had this running conversation just about 7 00:00:42,480 --> 00:00:48,840 as long on the state of classical music and music education. Incidentally, Josh is just 8 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:53,240 an unbelievable teacher and he's always been my model since I started out as somebody who 9 00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:58,880 is more experienced than me and just has a knack for it. So we talked a lot about that 10 00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:05,400 kind of stuff. And then back in March of this year, 2021, Rolling Stone magazine published 11 00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:11,960 this article. It's become rather infamous, I think, with the title, Juilliard Must Modernize 12 00:01:11,960 --> 00:01:17,960 or It Will Disappear. And this article circulated widely among classical musicians on social 13 00:01:17,960 --> 00:01:24,200 media. And Josh published what I thought was a really thoughtful and articulate response 14 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:29,480 on Facebook, which I then shared and my friends picked up. A lot of people thought it was 15 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:34,480 better than the original article, honestly. So we all read that and we thought we should 16 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:40,200 really bring Josh on the show to talk about these things. So we're going to get into that. 17 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:44,920 But first, so our audience gets to know you a little bit, Josh. I was wondering if you 18 00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:48,080 could talk a little bit about your musical background and how you came up because it's 19 00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:51,440 a little bit unusual for a classically trained musician. 20 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:59,960 Yes, I am a jack of all trades is a positive spin of that. And then I think a lot of times 21 00:01:59,960 --> 00:02:04,560 I'm just waiting for someone to discover that I'm a complete and utter fraud. So I'll have 22 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:11,080 that. Yeah, I grew up in New Orleans, Louisiana. I'm the only musician in my family, but my 23 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:17,360 family goes way back there. Actually, before the founding of the country, which is a pretty 24 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:24,120 cool thing. And so I grew up in a very musical place and my parents were musical enthusiasts. 25 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:29,320 We were always listening to music. My mom was a dancer when she was younger. And so 26 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:34,480 music was a big part of my life. And as long as I can remember, I was always listening 27 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:42,520 to it. Because my mom was a dancer, we had a piano in the house. And so I had an older 28 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:50,160 brother and he was taking lessons. And I was too young to take lessons. And so I was just 29 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:54,320 like listening to songs, kind of like a sponge. I was listening to songs on the radio. My 30 00:02:54,320 --> 00:03:00,120 parents had a big LP collection. I would just listen to songs and learn how to play them 31 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:08,360 by ear. And my musical interests were really have always been super, super diverse. I love 32 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:15,120 pop and music and rock and blues and jazz. But I also love classical and got really into 33 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:23,280 classical music around 10 or 11 years old, which is like really young, but also really 34 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:32,120 late for most classical musicians. So started taking classical lessons then and learned 35 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:39,080 pretty early on that I had to segregate or compartmentalize aspects of my musicianship. 36 00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:44,320 Never tell my classical teacher that for instance, I didn't learn how to read the entire first 37 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:49,880 year of my lessons. I knew what lines and spaces were. And so I would just count up 38 00:03:49,880 --> 00:03:53,320 the lines and spaces to figure out the first note and be like, okay, cool. And then just 39 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:58,320 start playing the piece because she would always play the pieces for me before introducing 40 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:02,360 them or I would listen to recordings from the library. 41 00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:03,920 So you're mostly playing by ear. 42 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:12,360 Yeah, I mean, pretty exclusively. But I eventually learned how to read and got really into it 43 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:21,240 and like so into it that I was a big idiot and left my junior year of high school, had 44 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:25,240 a chip on my shoulders, like I'm going to apply to colleges. And so somehow they made 45 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:30,880 a mistake and let me into some great schools. And so I went to Eastman as a baby. I was 46 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:38,400 16 years old when I went there and found out very quickly that I knew nothing about classical 47 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:47,480 music. And I spent that first year just being as scrappy as I possibly could. But loved 48 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:54,040 my experience there. Obviously, like immersing myself in that world for four years was deeply 49 00:04:54,040 --> 00:05:02,680 meaningful to me. And then, you know, took a little bit time off and gigged and eventually 50 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:06,600 went back to Eastman for my master's and kind of fell in love with teaching after doing 51 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:13,760 17 different things for a couple years. And I don't know, like the boring story is that 52 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:21,920 I met my wife at Eastman and we both got jobs here and kind of made Rochester her home. 53 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:29,280 And it sort of took me teaching at Nazareth College to learn how sort of silly it was 54 00:05:29,280 --> 00:05:33,120 that I had been compartmentalizing aspects of my musicianship for like a really long 55 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:39,520 time in my life. We were a small liberal arts school. We have a pretty big school of music. 56 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:43,880 We have about 300 students in our school of music. We're the second biggest school within 57 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:50,080 the college. And our primary enrolling programs are music therapy, music education, and music 58 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:57,840 business. So sort of where I fit in sort of my place in that college and an initiative 59 00:05:57,840 --> 00:06:04,960 that I very intentionally carved out for myself and was lucky to be supported doing that was, 60 00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:09,360 you know, we have obviously music education students who need to be able to, you know, 61 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:15,440 improvise a complements or do score reductions or I think about my wife all the time who's 62 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:20,600 like at two different schools and she maybe has her Suzuki cello book at one school and 63 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:24,920 her Suzuki piano or a violin book in another school. And so she's constantly transposing 64 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:31,600 the complements because, you know, she has to play them a different key. And then I got 65 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:36,480 handed this functional piano course for music therapists that like really didn't have a 66 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:40,240 curriculum or any required text. And like, we have this class that we want to do and 67 00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:44,920 we don't know what to do with it. And I was totally shocked that there were like zero 68 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:50,320 resources available to give my students. Like you could either find like, you can play pop 69 00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:55,520 piano too and you'd get these super freaking lame arrangements of like the melody jammed 70 00:06:55,520 --> 00:07:00,840 in your right hand pinky and like completely squared out rhythms that just sound awful. 71 00:07:00,840 --> 00:07:07,120 Like you don't have to be a musician to know how terrible those things sound. Or like someone's 72 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:14,520 dissertation on like 1910 stride piano, you know, styles. And so it's like, there's nothing 73 00:07:14,520 --> 00:07:21,440 in between that really empowers students with these skills or breaks down these elements 74 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:26,800 into sort of easily digestible and pedagogically sound approaches. So I started making handouts 75 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:33,080 for my students and those handouts got really long and ridiculous and eventually led to 76 00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:39,040 a book. So it's sort of become a passion of mine. But I don't know, I'm kind of always 77 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:43,440 been restless as a musician. This is a long story, so coming off. I've always been restless 78 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:50,240 as a musician. So I'm never happy like sort of doing one thing. I get, I have like a musical 79 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:56,040 ADD and I get bored. So I tend to say yes to projects that are different or interesting. 80 00:07:56,040 --> 00:08:02,080 And then if I can't find those projects, I tend to just make them. So that's kind of 81 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:07,880 what I've enjoyed doing throughout my career. And so that means like, like we started teaching 82 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:12,480 a version of that class that I built for our graduate students, you know, four or five 83 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:17,880 years ago and sort of had to retool that curriculum. And we're in the process of doing it for music 84 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:25,120 business students and incorporating like synth and MIDI input and, you know, scoring into 85 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:31,240 that curriculum too. So like, it's a very cool part of my job. But it's sort of, you 86 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:38,720 know, like, I think like a lot of 21st century musicians, like we're piecing together a variety 87 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:44,440 of different niches to sort of make a living and also keep ourselves vibrant and interested. 88 00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:49,520 Yeah. Okay. A lot to respond to there. Josh, first I want to ask you, can you talk a little 89 00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:54,440 bit more about the book and what's in it? Because talking about these two extremes, 90 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:58,560 right? The bad arrangements on the one hand and the dissertation on the other. What does 91 00:08:58,560 --> 00:09:01,120 functional piano mean to you and how do you teach it? 92 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:06,320 Yeah. So I mean, functional piano to me is a term that, you know, certainly I didn't 93 00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:11,280 coin, but I've sort of taken ownership with and that it's sort of the, it's the catch 94 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:17,840 all word I use for everything that kind of falls outside of the realm of what has become 95 00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:22,840 traditional classical training, right? So traditional classical training places emphasis 96 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:28,400 on very early on, on developing facility and developing reading skills, right? So your 97 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:35,400 ability to manipulate an instrument at a very high level and your ability to consume a lot 98 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:40,560 of written music. So those are, those are really important things and not that they're 99 00:09:40,560 --> 00:09:45,840 at all bad skills. I mean, I tell my students every week practically that like, I take it 100 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:50,080 for granted that I can manipulate my instrument well, like, like I've done the work and I 101 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:53,720 can do that. I take it for granted that I can read like that's, and that's something 102 00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:58,000 as a kid that I like, oh wait, all these people are so much better at this. It's, it's a skill 103 00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:02,120 like anything else, but I think we've kind of created this mystique around these other 104 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:09,420 skills like how do I learn a song from a recording or how do I transpose or how do I learn like 105 00:10:09,420 --> 00:10:15,280 what are the three main elements of blues piano stylings on, you know, on the piano 106 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:22,080 are like, how can I make my pop songs sound like the recordings? So a lot of these started 107 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:26,960 as like, I mean, I'll be honest, like a lot of it's reversed engineering, right? So this 108 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:33,000 is stuff that I've been doing my whole life and just kind of do organically. And then 109 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:37,600 I would have students, I was really lucky. My undergraduate students are enrolled, my 110 00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:42,080 music therapy students are enrolled in clinical placements on campus. So they're taking my 111 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:48,600 class, but then they're also going, you know, on campus to work with a group of five year 112 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:54,320 old kids with autism, or they're working with an adult student with aphasia, or they're 113 00:10:54,320 --> 00:11:01,120 working with a senior student with recovering from a stroke, right? So they're having to 114 00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:07,720 manipulate piano and guitar and their voice and use music to accomplish therapeutic goals. 115 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:11,560 So they're going to their sessions mean like, Hey, Massaco, sorry, everyone calls me Massaco 116 00:11:11,560 --> 00:11:15,360 and not Professor Massaco. I don't know how that happened, but it happened. So like, Hey, 117 00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:19,720 Massaco, I was doing this thing in a session and like, how do you ground the blues because 118 00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:23,800 my student needs a really steady beat, but like, you know, how do I also imbue it with 119 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:27,040 piano? So they would just ask me a lot of questions and I'm like, I don't know, let's 120 00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:33,160 figure it out. So that's really what functional pianism is to me because the things that my 121 00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:39,640 students have to be able to do and prioritize in very authentic and meaningful ways are 122 00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:45,440 very different skill set than what classical musicians, you know, prioritize. My students 123 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:49,920 have to be able to be really comfortable transposing, right? Like they'll have a student who comes 124 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:55,320 in just starts singing our client coming in, just start singing a song and a key and they 125 00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:59,760 have to figure out what key that's in and play an accompaniment to it, you know, or 126 00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:05,200 whatever, like horrendous ultimate guitar tab they get where like every second chord 127 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:09,520 is wrong. They have to know how to fix that on the spot. They don't have time to prep 128 00:12:09,520 --> 00:12:15,760 for it. They have to keep a catalog of, you know, dozens and eventually hundreds and thousands 129 00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:20,520 of songs in their heads and how do you maintain that and work on that skill? So those are 130 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:27,280 all, you know, really sort of different prioritization of skill sets. They don't have to be able 131 00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:33,840 to understand everything about classical technique or how to manipulate their instrument. You 132 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:38,520 know, I'm much more interested in function over form with those students because I don't 133 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:43,680 have them for very long. So yes, I would love them to play the instrument in the way that's 134 00:12:43,680 --> 00:12:51,280 healthiest and most comfortable and most efficient for them, but I can't prioritize that over 135 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:56,880 their ability to be able to look at a lead sheet for flying me to the moon and not completely 136 00:12:56,880 --> 00:13:02,760 freak out at what flat 13 means, you know, like there has to be that foundation for them 137 00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:07,640 to go on. So it's just sort of a different level of prioritization of skills. I know 138 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:12,120 that's a long answer, but it's one of those things that I think is a little confusing 139 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:17,000 at first. Sure, sure. Well, I think I could probably sum it up as functional piano is 140 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:23,380 essentially practical piano skills for what these musicians need to do. And there seems 141 00:13:23,380 --> 00:13:28,920 to be a disconnect that you're describing between the work that they do and what is 142 00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:34,000 traditionally taught in a classical curriculum. Now somebody might say, okay, well, these 143 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:39,160 people are training specifically to be music therapists. Is there the same disconnect for 144 00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:44,800 somebody that's going a more traditional route? And that's where we start to get into philosophical 145 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:53,120 issues, right? Which is kind of the reason we're here today. So let's get to the article 146 00:13:53,120 --> 00:14:02,240 because this is a very contentious article. I think there's a certain consensus among 147 00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:10,440 opinions that I read anyway, that it has its flaws, but basically the author made several 148 00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:15,800 stipulations. Number one being that orchestras are dying because they're not profitable and 149 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:22,840 they rely on donors to survive. Number two, if you graduate from Juilliard with a degree, 150 00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:29,960 you're not guaranteed a job. In fact, a New York Times report from 2004 tracked down the 151 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:34,840 class of Juilliard from 10 years earlier and found that only 25% of them had full-time 152 00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:43,560 or orchestral jobs. Also that classical schools should teach technology and business skills 153 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:49,080 and also that they should introduce different genres of music to their students, audiences 154 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:54,040 and donors alike, not just classical. So Josh, tell us what you think about all this. 155 00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:59,280 I have way too many opinions. That's what you're here for. Yeah, it's too early to have a couple 156 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:03,280 beers in me, but I'll have even more later this evening. I'm sure when I'm thinking about 157 00:15:03,280 --> 00:15:10,520 this. It won't hear everything. Yeah, you know, there's a lot to unpack, not just in 158 00:15:10,520 --> 00:15:16,680 that article, but that surround the assumptions made within that article. And maybe that's 159 00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:23,960 the thing that's sort of, to use a word triggered me to rant on Facebook about it. You know, 160 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:32,320 I think genre playing is such a dumb word. And, you know, anytime classical musicians 161 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:37,320 start to talk about like incorporating more styles or genres, I just, I have to like hide 162 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:44,720 the visible disdain that's in my face. Because, and I think it comes from a good place, but 163 00:15:44,720 --> 00:15:50,140 it always comes from a place of looking down upon music that does not fit a very narrow 164 00:15:50,140 --> 00:16:00,240 definition of what great music is, you know, and we can of course have this conversation. 165 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:07,640 I'm, you know, I have a 50% panel female panel right now. And, you know, we're all saying 166 00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:13,120 that the music of dead white Europeans is somehow better than what everyone else has 167 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:18,240 ever made in the history of music, and discounting the thousands of years of making music that 168 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:26,080 happened outside of that system, right? So I think anytime, you know, even as a musician 169 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:33,920 that has extraordinary reverence for like all types of music, I'm always careful about 170 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:41,600 how I phrase that discussion. And I think classical musicians really should do a better 171 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:48,080 job of doing that, that they just don't. And there's a lot of baggage there that that's 172 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:52,240 sort of just like, oh, you know, well, sure, I should listen to a pop song or like I'm 173 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:58,440 in a string quartet, I should arrange, you know, like some Apex Twin song, I'm like, 174 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:02,440 well, that the Apex Twin has been around for 30 years, right? Like, you're not going to 175 00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:09,380 reach a new audience with an Apex Twin song. So, you know, there's sort of this arrogance 176 00:17:09,380 --> 00:17:16,760 and ignorance that is equal parts in that conversation that I find, you know, problematic 177 00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:17,760 at best. 178 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:26,460 I agree. Yeah. Sorry to interrupt, but the superiority you mentioned, that's something 179 00:17:26,460 --> 00:17:36,120 that I face this every day. I'm a classical musician, but I teach children and they have 180 00:17:36,120 --> 00:17:43,520 this understanding of classical music being, you know, polished and education that's the 181 00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:49,860 that if you want to be educated, you have to go through this path of classical music, 182 00:17:49,860 --> 00:17:56,040 not knowing anything else. Although probably they have never heard a single symphony in 183 00:17:56,040 --> 00:18:02,680 their lifetime, but that's their mindset. So, so did the classical music market themselves 184 00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:07,440 very well in this country? Is that, is that why people have this kind of mindset? And 185 00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:14,720 I also have a problem with the fact that I'm a teacher. Okay. I'm a classical pianist too, 186 00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:22,560 but I make a living by teaching piano and I love it. But teaching piano sometimes is 187 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:29,600 considered to be something secondary. And, you know, hush, hush. When I first came to 188 00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:37,400 New York 10 years ago or, oh, sorry, 13 years ago. Oh my gosh. Oh, 15. Yeah. And then it 189 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:45,360 was like this. Oh, so you teach. Oh, you know, as a pianist, oh, you teach that kind of mentality. 190 00:18:45,360 --> 00:18:50,740 So, you know, the artists started to having to have this two different almost persona. 191 00:18:50,740 --> 00:18:57,560 One is the pianist, one is the piano teacher. So where does this superiority and inferiority 192 00:18:57,560 --> 00:19:05,760 come from? I'm just, you know, I mean, yeah, this is, these are such great points. You 193 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:10,280 know, I think, I think there's some real speak and there's a lot to impact there, but there's 194 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:14,800 some like sort of things that we have to get out of the way when we talk about classical 195 00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:23,000 music as, as a thing that functions in a modern musical economy. Right. So classical, like 196 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:29,600 the entirety of the classical musical industry accounts for about 2% of total revenue of 197 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:36,360 the music industry. So anytime we're having a conversation about why, why or why not a 198 00:19:36,360 --> 00:19:42,920 symphony is succeeding or failing or why or why not a Juilliard grad can get a job. I 199 00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:49,920 mean, we have to acknowledge that it's 2% of, I mean, we're a consumer economy, right? 200 00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:58,680 It's 2% of the industry. And we have to be real about that and recognize that a, that's 201 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:05,520 something we have to work against. Right. And that within this very narrow 2% slice 202 00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:10,320 of the industry, there's intense competition for a limited number of audience members and 203 00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:16,200 a limited number of funds. And, and that's just the reality of the industry. Like we 204 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:21,680 keep waiting for like some magic thing to happen where suddenly classical music becomes 205 00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:27,520 10% of the industry. And that's something we have let happen as a culture. We've let 206 00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:36,080 it happen as, as consumers, but we've also been very, very complicit in, in, I think 207 00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:43,960 accelerated as, as classical musicians. You know, it, it, it breaks my heart that, you 208 00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:49,480 know, a lot of musicians that I went to school with, and this is like, we can talk about 209 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:55,560 the non-musical benefits of being a well-earned musician. And like a big one of them is people 210 00:20:55,560 --> 00:21:01,120 skills, right? Like classical musicians go off in a practice room and they work for hours 211 00:21:01,120 --> 00:21:08,080 and hours and hours by themselves to produce a product. And then they present that product 212 00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:12,600 in a place where they're not allowed to be human beings. They're not allowed to have 213 00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:19,400 opinions or have conversations or talk or much less improvise or experiment or try new 214 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:26,080 things. Right. And then they present that in an extraordinary fourth wall stuffy environment 215 00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:29,900 and people politely clap and never in between movements. And then they leave and we wonder 216 00:21:29,900 --> 00:21:36,240 why like that's dying because I can go to a rock concert and I can feel a kick in my 217 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:42,320 chest. Right. I make this elemental connection with the people around me. We're all experiencing 218 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:47,960 part of the same thing. There's a light show, right? There's like a set list. Performers 219 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:53,920 are directly connecting. I just like the first concert I saw when the regulations lifted 220 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:59,920 was Brandy Carlile. Right. So I went to our local big, and if you guys haven't seen Brandy 221 00:21:59,920 --> 00:22:03,160 Carlile or listened to Brandy Carlile, you should listen to Brandy Carlile. Brandy Carlile 222 00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:07,600 is incredible singer and songwriter. She has a voice that, you know, as soon as she opens 223 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:13,520 her mouth, it just makes you stop doing anything you're doing and listen. And she makes music 224 00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:19,960 with the Hanselrath twins. So two identical twins who sing impeccable three part harmony 225 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:27,320 with her and play guitar and bass. And just, you know, being an audience with about 6,000 226 00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:33,800 people there and watching three musicians have 6,000 people in the palm of their hand. 227 00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:44,360 Sorry, I have to edit myself. The entire time, you know, seeing people have amazing personable 228 00:22:44,360 --> 00:22:51,080 reactions, right? Seeing people cry, seeing people cheer, seeing people laugh. That's 229 00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:59,560 what it means to be an audience member when you're in music, right? Like, and to experience 230 00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:05,280 a concert. And we've gotten so incredibly far away from that experience. I'll leave 231 00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:10,200 you with one quick story. My wife and I are big hikers and before all this, every year 232 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:17,720 we'd go to Europe and do a big cross track. And a few years ago, we were in Italy, but 233 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:21,720 we were passing through Verona and realized, oh, if we stop in Verona, we can go see an 234 00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:25,120 opera, right? So we think about opera here and we go to the Met and it's an incredibly 235 00:23:25,120 --> 00:23:29,960 stuffy affair and only the rich people go and we dress up and we hold our pinkies like 236 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:34,960 that and we leave right after the first intermission because we're bored and we want to go back 237 00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:44,320 to our, you know, apartment. So, right. Opera there starts in the Verona Amphitheater, which 238 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:48,680 is a, you know, ancient amphitheater where they used to do circus fights and you're sitting 239 00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:54,640 on stone granite steps. They start the opera at around nine o'clock, just as the sun is 240 00:23:54,640 --> 00:24:00,680 setting. Tickets are about 20 bucks and, you know, like baseball games, you have people 241 00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:04,520 selling like hot dogs. So those people are there, but they're selling glasses of wine 242 00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:10,160 and gelato and sandwiches and you're hanging out and people are talking. Anytime there's 243 00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:14,720 an aria, people are yelling and screaming and clapping. It's this huge spectacle where 244 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:19,720 they're like live horses walking on stage. At one point, we saw Aida at one point, there's 245 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:27,320 a choir of 16 harpists on stage. I mean, so it's this huge epic sports spectacle. Everyone 246 00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:32,120 knows the music. Everyone has a connection to it, but also people are having conversations 247 00:24:32,120 --> 00:24:36,720 with their family in the middle of it, right? Like during the wretches when it's a little 248 00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:44,320 quiet, but then like, okay, 20 extras are going to go backstage behind the theater and 249 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:49,120 light torches so that as the sun sets, the torches are the lights for the stage and everyone 250 00:24:49,120 --> 00:24:55,040 goes, wow. Oh, wow. How beautiful, right? Like they are chiefly aware of making a spectacle 251 00:24:55,040 --> 00:25:00,400 and entertaining a large group of people. And they're being honest about that and open 252 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:05,360 about that. And that, that was, I mean, we were up until 1 a.m. and then we went with 253 00:25:05,360 --> 00:25:09,920 a bunch of Italians down to like the local bar and got drunk, right? And like, where 254 00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:14,600 is that experience in the States? It doesn't exist and we don't have that connection. And 255 00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:18,240 I know it's part of its culture, right? Like we haven't maintained that culture. We're 256 00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:23,200 a new culture. We haven't carved that out for us. But that seems to me to be a very 257 00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:30,880 convenient excuse. I don't think classical musicians have frankly bothered to work hard 258 00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:35,920 enough to create those kinds of experience or really have seen value in doing so. You 259 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:41,840 know, like most classical musicians I went to school with want to go, you know, to an 260 00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:45,400 annex of Carnegie Hall and play a concert for people who don't clap between movements 261 00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:52,800 and put it on their resume. And like we wonder why it's honestly like the question I would 262 00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:57,040 pose, not the class, why is class going to be dying? It's like, why is, how have we been 263 00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:03,200 able to keep it alive for this long? So the classical music not being integrated into 264 00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:09,560 our daily lives in this, in this, in America, right? We're all Americans here so we can 265 00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:18,680 talk about, but so then, but when, when I used to live in Florida, my friends took me 266 00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:25,520 to a bluegrass concert or blues and then the situation was completely different. As 267 00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:31,360 in people are really enjoying themselves, immersing themselves into music and clapping 268 00:26:31,360 --> 00:26:38,840 and enjoying their drinks outside. And really, so the music was so alive and the musicians 269 00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:45,880 were directly communicating to the audience and there was this amazing connections to 270 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:55,760 one another. So, and then honestly, and Eric and Clara and I tried to do that last spring 271 00:26:55,760 --> 00:27:02,560 by doing the live stream concert. And I think classical musicians should do that sort of 272 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:05,360 audience engaging concerts more. 273 00:27:05,360 --> 00:27:09,720 Yeah. And you know, and it's like, it's one of the, I absolutely agree. And it's one of 274 00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:14,480 those things like, like anything else, you have to practice at doing it and you have 275 00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:20,760 to suck at it, right? Like the first time you're on stage and you're performing your 276 00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:27,280 own music and you have to like practice audience banter in between songs. Like you suck at 277 00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:30,880 it. You say stupid things, you say, um, there are weird changes. The first time you play 278 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:36,440 with a guitarist, you're like, oh, oh, they have to tune and I now I have to fill time. 279 00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:41,080 Right? Like, ah, you, then you notice like you do this thing and you go to enough concerts, 280 00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:48,160 you go, oh, okay. It's like, have any of you seen like the same artist, um, multiple times, 281 00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:53,560 like the same, like a commercial music artist perform at multiple times, you'll notice they 282 00:27:53,560 --> 00:28:00,220 tell the same stories. Their banter that seems very off the cuff is very planned, you know? 283 00:28:00,220 --> 00:28:03,040 And once you realize that you're like, oh, okay. So that's what I need to do. I need 284 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:07,880 to plan how to do that. Um, I listened to a great podcast called the working songwriters 285 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:13,280 podcast, um, that, uh, uh, Joe Pug hosts and he brings a lot of people on and sometimes 286 00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:18,320 people who have had very long and distinguished careers. Um, he asked a series of questions 287 00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:22,800 and some of them are, are, are the same questions, but I really like it. It's a very like long 288 00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:28,720 form deep dive, uh, about what it means to be an industry musician. And, um, you know, 289 00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:34,040 uh, one of the things that always comes up is like every single one of those great musicians 290 00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:40,160 that are now part of acts that fill auditoriums have played bar gigs where there was literally 291 00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:45,720 no one in the bar. There were zero people there and they played an entire two hours 292 00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:50,880 set to no one. Right? It's like they've had those experiences and they've learned from 293 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:54,000 them and they've grown from them. They've gone back and like, okay, here's what we need 294 00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:57,360 to do differently. Like here's how we need to change it. Here's how we need to pound 295 00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:02,840 pavement, you know? Um, and I don't, I don't see that happening. And I think you're absolutely 296 00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:06,880 right. Like, great, we're going to do a live stream and three of our friends are going 297 00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:13,200 to show up. Okay. Next time let's do better. What can we do differently? Can we do a sponsor? 298 00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:20,840 Like, you know, when I do a gig, like again, like Mike, I try to gently, um, convince even 299 00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:25,480 my own classical colleagues who like know the crazy person that I am, you know, my institution, 300 00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:30,920 like we'll do a piano faculty concert and like, we won't do a sponsored post and maybe 301 00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:35,480 we'll do a couple of things on the website and like, maybe we'll do a press release in 302 00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:42,160 the newspaper that no one reads. Um, and maybe 40 people will show up at the audience, you 303 00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:47,640 know, and they're mostly our friends. Like when I do, uh, I'm doing a Jackson Brown tribute, 304 00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:51,940 um, next month, uh, if you don't know Jackson Brown's music, you shouldn't know Jackson 305 00:29:51,940 --> 00:29:56,960 Brown's music. It's deeply incredible music. Uh, he's still making music. He's on tour 306 00:29:56,960 --> 00:30:02,880 right now. He just put out a record last year. He's 72 years old. He still sounds beautiful. 307 00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:09,800 Um, and, uh, he's a fabulous, uh, piano player and some of the great session musicians of 308 00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:16,040 the last 40 years have been a part of his band. Um, so, uh, it's like always been a 309 00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:20,520 dream of mine, right? So I put together this crazy eight person band and we're all super 310 00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:25,960 invested in the material and learned everything. Um, and we're doing our sort of first show 311 00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:31,960 and you know, the venue is like intentionally small. It's only about 150 people. Um, and 312 00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:36,920 so like, this is going to be our first run so that we can take it to Buffalo and Syracuse 313 00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:45,640 and different markets. Um, but like we, uh, have already begun a presale, right? So every 314 00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:52,320 band member has 20 tickets that we're all responsible for, for moving to our friends, 315 00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:57,880 right? And then once that presale is done, like we have a hundred people that we know 316 00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:02,240 are going to show up to our concert. They've already committed financially and then we're 317 00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:08,400 going to do radio spots and then we're going to do a Facebook like targeted ads and we're 318 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:12,000 going to do a series of videos that we're going to release, right? It's like little 319 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:16,280 teasers from rehearsals and like, this is a whole thing that we do because all of us 320 00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:20,680 have done this thing before and we know what gets butts in seats, right? And we're all 321 00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:27,040 willing to do it. Um, and so, you know, I'll play a classical concert and 40 people will 322 00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:31,760 be there and they'll like politely clap and then I'll leave and I'll be happy because 323 00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:40,000 I made music with good people, right? But I'll also feel, uh, sad that I couldn't make 324 00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:44,120 this moment happen. I couldn't, I couldn't bring people together to have a collective 325 00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:50,040 experience, right? And then I'll go to a venue where everyone's having a drink and a nice 326 00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:56,560 meal and, uh, there'll be 150 people there and it'll, it'll be packed and it, you know, 327 00:31:56,560 --> 00:32:02,080 will smell like a concert and people will cheer and I'll play songs that have been the 328 00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:07,000 soundtrack to people's lives for 40 years. Well, maybe we can just, uh, we have to start 329 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:13,480 to introduce drinks into classical concert. I don't know, you know, and then we are taking 330 00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:18,760 notes here, Josh. I'm sorry to interrupt. I actually, oh my gosh, this is such a wonderful 331 00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:24,440 conversation. You know, when you were talking about the experience you had in Europe, I 332 00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:30,240 just actually came back from a month long Europe trip yesterday. Uh, and I flew in from 333 00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:36,120 Italy, but you know, with all the COVID restrictions, um, everything is a little different. I was 334 00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:41,600 only able to go to one little outdoor concert, you know, smaller, quite similar, but it's 335 00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:46,600 a different touch, you know? So I, as I'm, you're talking and I'm thinking, you know, 336 00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:52,800 this is something I think it's not only that when we are, when you are talking with, with 337 00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:58,440 your friend responsible for these 20 tickets or something, sure. But that's also a skill 338 00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:04,120 that as musicians, sometimes we just, uh, we don't have, you know, like we, we go through 339 00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:10,160 institutions, we go through like our music schools. And I remember it, like I came here 340 00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:14,600 from China when I was 17 and I went to Kansas and you know, our concert hall is the same 341 00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:20,480 size as Carnegie Hall and every single recital, I mean, it's booked every day, but every recital, 342 00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:25,340 there's like maybe 50 people, you know, a hundred people shows up and I had to convince 343 00:33:25,340 --> 00:33:31,120 my mom to come here from China to cook for everybody. So finally I had like 300 people 344 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:36,080 show up in my, and it was like the most people, but I think it was really for her food. So 345 00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:41,040 I mean, with all that, and I'm curious to know, since we do all teach children, I, you 346 00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:47,720 know, over the years, I have had some interesting ideas with, um, how to approach, right? Teaching 347 00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:53,840 children, like how to, I wouldn't want to say, um, you know, brainwash them, but I also 348 00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:58,840 want them to understand classical music is not just for old people, not just for grandparents, 349 00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:05,040 right? It's just something they can enjoy with their friends. So what is your philosophy 350 00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:11,880 on this? That's what I'm most curious. And, um, what do you think the difference, like 351 00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:16,760 if you were going to explain to a child, what's the difference between like fine arts, classical 352 00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:21,560 fine art versus entertainment, right? Because sometimes like at the teenagers, they rather 353 00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:27,480 go to a BTS concert than go to Carnegie Hall, right? And what's your take on that? 354 00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:35,800 Um, I don't make a distinction. So I, I'm very upfront with, with not only the, the 355 00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:40,440 college students I teach, but the children I teach that I only teach music that I love 356 00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:45,400 and I only teach music that sort of passes this test of being able to communicate something 357 00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:50,640 to me. And I know that seems really silly, but like, yeah, in a method book, I won't 358 00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:54,800 teach half the pieces in them because I don't think they have musical merit. You know, I 359 00:34:54,800 --> 00:35:00,720 don't want to play them. I don't want to sing them. Um, and, uh, I don't ever play the duets 360 00:35:00,720 --> 00:35:05,440 that are written in the book because I can improvise ones that are better and more meaningful 361 00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:11,760 and more applicable to the student that I'm sitting in a room with. Right. So, uh, I don't 362 00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:17,620 make a distinction, you know, no distinction was ever made to me. Um, I think the most 363 00:35:17,620 --> 00:35:24,140 important thing I can do is provide my students with a model of musicianship and provide them 364 00:35:24,140 --> 00:35:32,760 with access. Right. Like I inherently believe as I did as a kid that like, Oh, you know, 365 00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:38,700 come on, like you're going to hear a Chopin nocturne and like not, not like reach someplace 366 00:35:38,700 --> 00:35:43,560 in someone's heart. Like their 17 year old breakup with their first girlfriend, like 367 00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:50,240 it hits you in this place. That's deeply, uh, fundamentally, uh, emotional and accessible. 368 00:35:50,240 --> 00:35:56,500 Um, you know, and that music for all the complexity we give to it is incredibly simple music. 369 00:35:56,500 --> 00:36:02,240 It's a beautiful melody with great chord changes. It's a pop song. I mean, that's what Chopin 370 00:36:02,240 --> 00:36:09,160 is, you know, it's a melody that's great that you hear over and over again. And, um, we 371 00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:15,560 make this, I think this like really early on, this completely arbitrary, unnecessary 372 00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:21,600 and elitist distinction between classical music and all other types of music. Um, so, 373 00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:26,240 you know, the first thing I, I get to do with my students, um, you know, obviously with 374 00:36:26,240 --> 00:36:31,280 COVID I haven't met new students in a while and young students, but like I get to know 375 00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:36,640 what they like and what they listen to and what they love. And I get to sort of like 376 00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:41,720 gently steer that, which is an incredible responsibility as a teacher, you know, I can, 377 00:36:41,720 --> 00:36:47,400 I can open a door to music. And, uh, I've been doing this long enough that I think some 378 00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:52,760 of my, some of the things that I'm most proud about, um, with students I've worked with, 379 00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:59,040 I just got coffee with a student who's finishing up at Tisch, um, as a, um, a filmmaker. And, 380 00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:03,480 uh, I taught her a piano from the time she was seven years old. Right. And, um, she's 381 00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:09,560 like, of course become this just beautiful, amazing, uh, human being. Um, but like she's 382 00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:12,360 sitting here just sort of casually telling me like what she's been listening to and what 383 00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:16,600 she's going to concerts to, and we're talking about, um, you know, we're talking just like 384 00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:21,520 free flow talking about classical music and talking about R and B, uh, and talking about 385 00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:25,520 Kendrick Lamar and talking like all the concerts she's been to since she's been at the city. 386 00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:32,040 And I'm like, this is all stuff I love. Like she's like, yeah, you're the reason like I 387 00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:36,060 love music. Like I listen to music all the time because of you, because of the things 388 00:37:36,060 --> 00:37:44,320 that we did in lessons, you know, and like who cares if she never plays piano again, 389 00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:54,240 if she is, if music is a narrative to her life, um, then I've done something good. Um, 390 00:37:54,240 --> 00:38:01,480 so yeah, I mean, I know that's a very like, uh, uh, obnoxious answer to your very simple 391 00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:07,080 question, but, um, but I think, you know, even like in those, when I teach pedagogy, 392 00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:13,520 it's, it's a, it's a point I make that like, this is your opportunity to broaden and not 393 00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:20,920 restrict what music is or is not. Um, and you need to take that, that opportunity very 394 00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:25,160 seriously. 395 00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:29,720 This concludes part one of our interview with Josh Massico. Tune in next time to hear about 396 00:38:29,720 --> 00:38:34,200 some of Josh's own artistic influences, his advice for young musicians, and his thoughts 397 00:38:34,200 --> 00:39:00,280 on creating a more musical society.