1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:11,020 You're listening to the PianoPod, where we talk to the brightest minds in the industry 2 00:00:11,020 --> 00:00:17,280 about how they're bringing the piano into the 21st century. 3 00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:19,520 Hello and welcome back to the PianoPod. 4 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:21,000 I am Eric Hunter. 5 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:22,680 I'm Yukimi Song. 6 00:00:22,680 --> 00:00:25,200 I'm Clara Zhang. 7 00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:29,720 Today our guest is Claire Marie Lim, otherwise known as Doll Trick. 8 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:34,000 A professor in Berkeley's Electronic Production and Design Department, she specializes in 9 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:38,320 instruction for live electronic performance, production, and programming, and is an advocate 10 00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:41,560 of women and Asian representation in music technology. 11 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:47,080 She is an Ableton certified trainer, Bitwig certified trainer, and Apple certified pro. 12 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:51,360 In music education and arts activism, Claire collaborates with the Girls Rock Campaign, 13 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:55,440 Beats by Girls, and the Queens Public Library Network, and has received support from the 14 00:00:55,440 --> 00:00:59,420 New York City Department of Cultural Affairs and Queens Council on the Arts. 15 00:00:59,420 --> 00:01:02,880 She develops curriculum for various ages and experience levels, having consulted for the 16 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:08,000 International Center of Photography, Queens College, Coursera, and the Berkeley Network. 17 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:12,320 Claire also independently runs the Doll Troop, a mentorship experience where K through 12 18 00:01:12,320 --> 00:01:15,800 girls can shadow her in electronic songwriting sessions and live shows. 19 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:17,120 Hi, Claire. 20 00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:18,120 Thanks for joining us today. 21 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:19,120 Hi, thanks for having me. 22 00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:20,120 You're welcome. 23 00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:21,120 Excited to be here. 24 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:22,120 Thank you. 25 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:25,840 Yes, we are so excited to have you. 26 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:28,760 We interview a lot of classical pianists for this show. 27 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:31,400 We're all classical pianists, the three of us. 28 00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:36,160 But we're also very interested in music technology and the future of music. 29 00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:39,960 And when we saw what you were doing on YouTube, we were just blown away. 30 00:01:39,960 --> 00:01:42,800 We're like, ah, we have to have her on the show. 31 00:01:42,800 --> 00:01:45,760 So we're very, very excited. 32 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:49,160 Now you describe yourself as a music technologist, right? 33 00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:50,720 Yes, that's right. 34 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:52,800 Yeah, I love that term. 35 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:54,800 Can you explain what you mean by that exactly? 36 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:55,800 Yeah, totally. 37 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:58,920 And I think before I start, I'll also kind of jump in. 38 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:03,680 The classical music is still very much in me too, because I'm a classical trained pianist 39 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:04,680 too. 40 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:05,680 So it was very weird. 41 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:06,680 I think my parents didn't really expect that. 42 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:11,760 It's like, oh, let her go get her diploma and whatever and then turn into this electronic 43 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:12,760 music weirdo. 44 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:13,760 Sorry, mom and dad. 45 00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:16,680 But anyway, yeah, so music technology. 46 00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:21,320 I think it's a term that I like using a lot and that a lot of my colleagues who also call 47 00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:24,080 themselves music technologists use as well. 48 00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:28,560 Especially because oftentimes when you're in the field of music tech, you're not just 49 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:30,420 in say only production. 50 00:02:30,420 --> 00:02:34,440 There's a little bit of overlap with say live performance or in my case, for example, or 51 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:38,320 sometimes there's a little bit of overlap in programming and sound design. 52 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:42,560 So I think using the term music technology kind of encompasses that because that's actually 53 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:44,700 pretty much what I do all the time. 54 00:02:44,700 --> 00:02:48,360 Sometimes my clients who I work with will come to me through the lens of wanting to 55 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:50,760 look for a producer to help them with their music. 56 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:54,760 So they might be say a songwriter or a composer and it's like, hey, Claire, can you help me 57 00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:59,840 make this, you know, put it into some kind of digital form, like in a software computer 58 00:02:59,840 --> 00:03:04,000 program and then other clients that I work with will be like, hey, I'm doing a live performance. 59 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:08,480 Can you help me put together a live show or put together my stage setup? 60 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:10,600 So it really kind of runs the gamut. 61 00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:16,120 It's very much, you know, kind of being like a jack of all trades, I guess, and having 62 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:18,480 to go between different sorts of things. 63 00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:20,080 But ultimately, I love doing all of it. 64 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:22,280 So that's why I like it. 65 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:23,600 Yeah, that's amazing. 66 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:25,720 I know you wear so many hats. 67 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:29,280 I mean, just going through the materials on your website, you're like, oh my gosh, she's 68 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:33,800 performing and she's producing and she's educating activism as well. 69 00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:34,800 Right. 70 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:35,800 And technology running through it. 71 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:36,840 It's amazing. 72 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:40,620 But it's so interesting to me that you grew up with classical training and then found 73 00:03:40,620 --> 00:03:42,200 your way into technology. 74 00:03:42,200 --> 00:03:43,500 I've got a bit of that myself. 75 00:03:43,500 --> 00:03:47,040 So can you tell us what drew you to music technology originally? 76 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:48,040 Yeah, totally. 77 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:49,560 I'm so glad to hear that, Eric. 78 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:54,440 I think like for me, it was very, very much an accident. 79 00:03:54,440 --> 00:04:00,000 Up until college, just for a little bit of background also, I went to a school where 80 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:03,480 you had different options for majoring in different parts of music. 81 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:07,840 So sometimes a couple of people would major specifically in electronic production or people 82 00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:11,400 would do engineering or people would do like commercial writing. 83 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:14,640 And that was initially what I kind of wanted to do. 84 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:18,640 So when I first got to the college that I attended, like my mind was really more set 85 00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:22,880 on being just like a writer or a composer because I didn't know about the possibilities 86 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:25,220 of a lot of the electronic music stuff. 87 00:04:25,220 --> 00:04:30,480 But it just so happened that a lot of my friends who I met in my very first semester at college, 88 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:35,800 I got very close to them and a lot of them were into electronic music stuff. 89 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:40,000 And at that time still, I was a little bit of a purist. 90 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:44,240 So people would bring up electronic music and you kind of think like one of two things, 91 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:49,160 either the electroacoustic tradition kind of in classical stuff or you think of like 92 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:53,080 a doom, doom, doom, doom, which it kind of is. 93 00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:54,080 Yeah, I know. 94 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:59,520 I joke with my students now that like that's all that electronic music is, partially being 95 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:02,440 facetious, but it kind of is also. 96 00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:07,680 So I thought of that and it was really a lot of my own prejudice that was preventing me 97 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:10,680 from being open to a lot of the creative possibilities. 98 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:14,720 So I started going to a lot of these live shows and for me, coming from the lens of 99 00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:19,160 or the background rather of being a performer, because I used to do lots of like competitions 100 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:22,920 and lots of on stage stuff as a pianist and a flute player too, right? 101 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:25,840 So it's like stage performance experience. 102 00:05:25,840 --> 00:05:30,160 Coming into that sphere and watching all of these live performances, I was totally blown 103 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:31,160 away. 104 00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:36,440 So I went to a concert once by a group called Disclosure and it was actually in New York, 105 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:37,940 it was at Madison Square Garden. 106 00:05:37,940 --> 00:05:42,760 And I saw them there and that was the night that very much changed my life because they 107 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:45,120 do a completely live electronic setup. 108 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:49,040 So the brothers are also actually a little bit of classical and jazz trained. 109 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:52,560 One of them plays the drums, the other plays the bass, but they do this really cool live 110 00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:53,760 electronic setup. 111 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:59,520 And I was totally mesmerized and I said, okay, if I do get into electronic music at all, 112 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:01,920 it's probably going to be through the vein of performance. 113 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:03,240 And that's what happened. 114 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:05,280 So that was down the rabbit hole. 115 00:06:05,280 --> 00:06:06,280 Yeah. 116 00:06:06,280 --> 00:06:07,280 All right. 117 00:06:07,280 --> 00:06:12,240 So I think that's a great segue to your current project, which is Doll Trick, right? 118 00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:16,120 Can you tell us what is Doll Trick and what do you do as Doll Trick? 119 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:17,120 Totally. 120 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:22,680 Doll Trick is interesting because she's kind of like, first of all, I refer to her a lot 121 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:27,440 in third person, mainly because when I first started doing electronic music, I personally 122 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:31,680 felt very scared about it for a number of reasons. 123 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:34,560 Mostly because I, first of all, really didn't know what I was doing at the time. 124 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:36,780 So it was just like, what is going on? 125 00:06:36,780 --> 00:06:42,240 Second of all, because I didn't really have the courage to do a lot of the more performative 126 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:47,880 things that I saw either the peers or the idols that I had, not idols, but the inspirations 127 00:06:47,880 --> 00:06:49,320 that I had doing. 128 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:51,800 And it's partially because they were mostly white men. 129 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:54,560 So it was a very weird situation. 130 00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:59,600 Like you look around and there's no one who looks like the same as you until later on 131 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:01,720 in my story, which is what I'll get to. 132 00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:07,920 But yeah, so I created Doll Trick in college when I was still in college after I took a 133 00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:08,920 turntable class. 134 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:13,000 Actually, I took a class on turntablism and the first assignment was to come up with a 135 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:15,360 DJ name and it stuck. 136 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:19,480 I didn't think it would stick, but I just thought of it and it stuck and ended up becoming 137 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:20,760 my artist project name. 138 00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:25,600 So I stuck with that name and it's kind of my avenue of having some kind of platform 139 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:30,040 to just really be free with music and a little bit of an unfiltered type of sense. 140 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:35,360 I feel like if I went into the music creation process as Claire, it would come out very 141 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:36,360 different. 142 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:38,560 But Doll Trick gives me a little bit of that freedom. 143 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:42,280 And it's because of that that I usually kind of have her very separate. 144 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:47,440 I like to think of her as like maybe like 10 or even 20 years younger than me in terms 145 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:50,920 of like the freedom that she has to do stuff. 146 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:56,400 She's very much just a lot more liberal in a lot of the choices that she makes. 147 00:07:56,400 --> 00:08:02,000 And I think of the Doll Trick project as really being, yeah, it's totally separate from what 148 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:04,160 people will hire me for. 149 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:07,100 My clients won't necessarily be like, I'm hiring Doll Trick. 150 00:08:07,100 --> 00:08:08,100 Sometimes they are. 151 00:08:08,100 --> 00:08:11,560 But let's say they're looking for an engineer on their tour or something. 152 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:13,880 They're not hiring Doll Trick, they're hiring Claire. 153 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:17,760 Or if they're looking for lessons, they're looking for lessons from Claire and not Doll 154 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:18,760 Trick. 155 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:22,720 So that's a little bit of her on the side. 156 00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:24,640 That is so interesting to me. 157 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:30,120 I think that's like a really ingenious solution to a problem that I frequently run into, which 158 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:34,160 is like how to get started and get over my own creative anxieties. 159 00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:39,640 Do you have other kind of personas or do you like compartmentalize differently for all 160 00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:41,680 the other different projects that you do? 161 00:08:41,680 --> 00:08:43,400 Yeah, that's a great question. 162 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:45,760 I do actually have one other persona. 163 00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:52,400 It hasn't been active for a while, but I used to do a lot of live modular synthesizer jams. 164 00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:58,000 And my artist name for that would be CableWrapper, which is funny, because sometimes there will 165 00:08:58,000 --> 00:08:59,760 be spoken word stuff also. 166 00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:03,600 But yeah, mainly Doll Trick is the main one, I think. 167 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:09,000 Sometimes even when I do a lot of performance stuff, and my students and also my audience 168 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:12,720 who have seen me perform live will notice this too, but I'll do a little bit of a switch 169 00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:13,720 out sometimes. 170 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:14,720 So I'll be like, hey, this is Claire. 171 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:19,000 And then I'll go back and be like, hey, this is Doll Trick right now doing the performance 172 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:20,000 stuff. 173 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:25,280 And it's a little bit like a split personality thing, but it's not that crazy yet, I hope. 174 00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:26,280 Yeah. 175 00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:32,880 Well, I think a lot of performers, I hesitate to say all performers, but a lot of performers 176 00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:37,800 certainly have a certain separation between their public life and their private life, 177 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:38,800 right? 178 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:42,800 What they put on performance versus what they create on their own. 179 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:47,840 When you do the tour, are you doing as Doll Trick and by yourself or do you have a team 180 00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:50,560 or group of musicians to go along with? 181 00:09:50,560 --> 00:09:52,200 Yeah, that's a great question, Nikiumi. 182 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:55,480 So what usually happens for my case, it kind of depends. 183 00:09:55,480 --> 00:10:02,120 If I am touring as Doll Trick, then I usually go on my own. 184 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:06,000 I've done it enough at this stage that I can pack everything into a suitcase and I just 185 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:08,280 like go around. 186 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:12,800 But that said though, most of the time if I'm getting hired to work with other people, 187 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:15,920 like if I'm on their teams, then yeah, that is with a team of people. 188 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:20,480 So I'll be like one out of, I don't know, a crew of like 50 or something people on like 189 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:23,960 a bus or depending on the size of the tour. 190 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:24,960 Sometimes it's smaller too. 191 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:26,680 So it really depends on the situation. 192 00:10:26,680 --> 00:10:28,160 I've done both before. 193 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:29,160 Wow. 194 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:36,120 And I've seen your YouTube clips and also listened to some of your original songs on 195 00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:38,880 music streaming services. 196 00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:44,080 By the way, one of your songs is on our full playlist on Spotify. 197 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:45,080 Oh, thank you so much. 198 00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:50,560 I know that our viewers and listeners can really enjoy your song. 199 00:10:50,560 --> 00:10:59,240 Anyway, so I've seen some cover songs, like you are doing covers, but also you have your 200 00:10:59,240 --> 00:11:00,240 original. 201 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:06,160 So when you're touring, do you do both or are they all original, maybe not songs, but 202 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:07,160 music? 203 00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:09,400 Yeah, that's a great question. 204 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:14,720 Sometimes I try to do a mix of both, mainly because also for myself, like I love doing 205 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:15,720 covers. 206 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:17,480 I think it's so fun. 207 00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:23,120 And also because this is like it partially is because of this, but like sometimes I like 208 00:11:23,120 --> 00:11:28,360 doing covers that not just are for my main audience, which are mainly around a certain 209 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:32,120 age range, but to like appeal to other folks too. 210 00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:35,800 Like sometimes when I do a Fleetwood Mac song, for example, my parents get very excited. 211 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:36,800 I love Fleetwood Mac. 212 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:37,800 Me too. 213 00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:38,800 Yeah. 214 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:42,680 So I love doing Fleetwood Mac stuff and I'll send them like funny clips of like, hey, I 215 00:11:42,680 --> 00:11:45,880 want to hear your favorite rock song in an electronic fashion. 216 00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:48,800 My parents will like laugh a little bit, which is fun. 217 00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:50,520 So sometimes it's a little for them. 218 00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:54,880 Sometimes a little bit of jazz as well, because my grandparents, my grandfather especially 219 00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:57,280 is a big fan of like Sinatra and stuff like that. 220 00:11:57,280 --> 00:12:02,320 So I used to do some like weird flips that would make him laugh as well. 221 00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:03,880 So there's a little bit of that too. 222 00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:09,120 I mean, like I grew up listening to a lot of bands, like older stuff that I think a 223 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:11,660 lot of my students right now wouldn't know also. 224 00:12:11,660 --> 00:12:16,440 So in that regard, like sometimes I'll do stuff that's really popular with them. 225 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:19,880 Like whatever is like on the, you know, the billboard charts now or whatever they might 226 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:20,880 like. 227 00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:21,880 So there's always a mix of things. 228 00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:22,880 I love covers. 229 00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:30,720 So yeah, but with your, you know, electric music background, it's going to sound much 230 00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:31,720 different. 231 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:32,720 Yeah, totally. 232 00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:33,720 Yeah. 233 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:38,200 I think that's also something that I like to really think about as one of the powers 234 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:42,280 of doing electronic music stuff, just cause a lot of the time when we think of covers 235 00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:46,700 or when a lot of people think of covers, sometimes they think of just, you know, a person sitting 236 00:12:46,700 --> 00:12:49,080 with their guitar and like singing into a mic. 237 00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:51,720 It's like an acoustic version or something. 238 00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:55,960 So that's why sometimes a lot of people will call it, you know, a remix instead. 239 00:12:55,960 --> 00:12:59,320 Although, you know, technically if it's a remix, sometimes there's original material 240 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:00,360 from the song. 241 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:02,160 So it's still a cover that I'm doing. 242 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:06,600 It's just like an electronic version of a cover, but yeah, lots of cool opportunities 243 00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:07,600 with sounds. 244 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:08,600 Yeah. 245 00:13:08,600 --> 00:13:15,600 And you know, while I was watching YouTube, one of your videos and you were playing a 246 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:23,320 flute and with a keyboard and even a keyboard that I have never seen it before. 247 00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:24,320 I'm sorry. 248 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:28,440 I'm really, really old fashioned classical pianist. 249 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:30,920 So I'm very boring in that way. 250 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:34,080 I only know black and white keys or 88 keys. 251 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:40,600 Yeah, anyway, so what does it take to be you? 252 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:48,360 I'm very curious because, you know, I have students of so much potentials and I want 253 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:52,760 to give them as much as I can, you know, and I'm very curious. 254 00:13:52,760 --> 00:14:00,360 I mean, not only you have this, it sounds like you've done, you know, traditional music 255 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:08,200 lessons and but also you have the knowledge of technology, the computer software to because 256 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:10,640 you are also a DJ, right? 257 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:11,640 Right. 258 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:12,640 Yeah. 259 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:17,040 So I am very curious what it takes to be Miss Claire Lim. 260 00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:18,040 Tell us. 261 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:24,080 Yeah, I think to be honest, I think it's just a lot of nowadays, especially since you mentioned 262 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:27,040 your students and I tell this to my students too. 263 00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:31,120 It's about taking advantage of whatever resources you have. 264 00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:34,880 And I think they're in a very different position from us because even like I'm I know I look 265 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:38,200 very young, but like I'm I didn't grow up like with I'm not from the generation that 266 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:39,200 grew up with like smartphones. 267 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:40,200 Right. 268 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:41,200 But now they do. 269 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:45,160 And even for a lot of them, like as when they were like five year olds using an iPad or 270 00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:47,800 something on that iPad, you can put a lot of stuff. 271 00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:49,760 You can put things like music software. 272 00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:53,400 You can put little things like music games that a lot of like the younger students I 273 00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:55,040 work with, like K through 12. 274 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:59,440 They use a lot too, and that develops a lot of their musical sense as well. 275 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:04,080 So oftentimes for a lot of the students that I work with who are interested or even just 276 00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:08,900 people in general who are interested in getting into music technology, I often joke. 277 00:15:08,900 --> 00:15:10,760 It's not a joke, but it's very serious. 278 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:14,020 Like the biggest asset that you have is your phone. 279 00:15:14,020 --> 00:15:17,860 Just because you can put so many things there, like even off the top of my head, a really 280 00:15:17,860 --> 00:15:22,960 good one to get started with is if you have an iPhone, the GarageBand app that's native 281 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:25,440 to the iPhone lets you do so many things. 282 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:29,280 And the cool part about it is that you can save your projects also and you can send them 283 00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:31,880 to yourself so that then you can use it on your computer. 284 00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:35,800 So there's a lot of stuff that goes on in between that. 285 00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:40,240 And that's often like a really important step, I think, that a lot of people take on too. 286 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:43,920 And especially for the folks who are coming from a more classical background, like even 287 00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:49,240 myself, thinking back to when I first got into this, the best part about having a little 288 00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:55,160 bit of a piano background is that most types of music technology software nowadays have 289 00:15:55,160 --> 00:15:56,800 a piano interface. 290 00:15:56,800 --> 00:15:59,880 So it's kind of like you already know the language. 291 00:15:59,880 --> 00:16:03,680 The only main thing that might be different is when you press a key, you won't hear a 292 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:08,680 piano sound, but you'll hear like a bass sound or you'll hear like a synthesizer sound. 293 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:12,240 And that also takes, you know, a little time to wrap your head around because it does get 294 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:13,240 surprising. 295 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:16,440 It's like, wait, this should be a, this should sound like a piano, but it doesn't. 296 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:19,400 So you have to kind of like adjust your head a little bit around that too. 297 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:22,840 But that's one of the benefits of having a little bit of keyboard background too. 298 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:27,360 So that's actually why I often encourage people, like even if you don't see yourself as like 299 00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:31,320 a full out concert pianist, getting a bit of a keyboard background, if you're interested 300 00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:35,980 in production or interested in electronic music is like really, really good. 301 00:16:35,980 --> 00:16:36,980 So do that. 302 00:16:36,980 --> 00:16:38,400 Thank you for saying that. 303 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:41,760 I mean, you're saving our jobs as a piano teacher. 304 00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:49,760 I mean that really seriously too, just cause I think a lot of the strongest folks that 305 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:54,880 I've worked with, like be it artists or students or even just like my own mentors too, right? 306 00:16:54,880 --> 00:17:01,200 They've had a really wide range of knowledge, not just in the Western sphere as well with 307 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:06,140 like classical music theory, but even just going beyond into like, you know, Indian Hindustani 308 00:17:06,140 --> 00:17:11,080 music or Kanatak music or like different parts of, you know, Chinese music, like different 309 00:17:11,080 --> 00:17:16,320 regions of China, being able to be aware of the different music styles and Western classical 310 00:17:16,320 --> 00:17:20,560 music being a good foundation for, you know, understanding harmonic concepts. 311 00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:24,440 I think that's one of its main strengths as a system. 312 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:30,040 So big advocate of like learning something as a secondary instrument. 313 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:31,040 Wow. 314 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:32,040 Thank you. 315 00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:33,040 That's great to know. 316 00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:38,000 Now, so I know I'm asking too much, so, but this will be the last one. 317 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:42,800 Now, so as you were growing up, who or what was the influence? 318 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:51,880 Like was it your music teacher or maybe family members who were in the industry or maybe 319 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:57,360 you were interested in gaming or computer classes at school? 320 00:17:57,360 --> 00:17:58,360 I'm very curious. 321 00:17:58,360 --> 00:18:04,320 Yeah, as far as the gaming goes, cause a lot of people for an interesting like anecdote 322 00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:08,560 is that a lot of the folks that I meet think like I play like a lot of video games and 323 00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:09,560 something, but I don't. 324 00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:12,000 I grew up with like zero video games. 325 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:13,720 Mom and dad were like, no. 326 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:15,760 I did watch a lot of TV though. 327 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:21,720 So in terms of music exposure, I would really say it came from my grandparents, I think 328 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:24,200 on both sides of the family. 329 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:31,240 My parents themselves, they aren't like super into music at all or really no one in my family 330 00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:33,200 is a professional musician actually. 331 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:39,440 There's that and I guess coming from my background, for a bit more context, I grew up in Singapore 332 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:42,880 but half of my family, my dad's side is actually from the Netherlands. 333 00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:47,860 So it's a little bit odd, but yeah, even on both sides of the family, no one was very 334 00:18:47,860 --> 00:18:51,160 much into like, you should do this as a living. 335 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:56,600 Cause the idea was like, it's not a living going into it. 336 00:18:56,600 --> 00:18:58,240 And also like I'm the only child. 337 00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:02,480 So it was a lot of like pressure and the only grandchild for my mom's side, which is a little 338 00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:03,960 crazy also. 339 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:07,560 So there's a lot of kind of like music is cool. 340 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:11,920 We'll let you be exposed to a lot of it to be cultured, whatever that might mean. 341 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:14,040 And then you can do whatever you want. 342 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:15,040 That's not music. 343 00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:18,760 So that's, that was the main line of thinking. 344 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:22,580 But I grew up listening to a lot of different ranges, types of sounds. 345 00:19:22,580 --> 00:19:25,440 So my dad's side would do a lot of the classical stuff. 346 00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:30,200 And actually my grandma, my paternal grandma, she bought me my first piano, which I still 347 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:31,200 have now. 348 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:34,240 I have so many similar stories. 349 00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:35,240 Totally. 350 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:36,240 And it's great. 351 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:41,480 It was like, I still remember it's like the, it was like a mini 1.5 meter tall, kawaii 352 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:42,480 piano. 353 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:44,440 We still have it at home. 354 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:48,000 So she bought that and she was really amazing as a pianist. 355 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:51,800 She never really had any formal training, so she would only play by ear, but she was 356 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:53,040 brilliant. 357 00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:54,040 So she got me that. 358 00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:57,160 And then I got started with piano lessons, I think when I was like five or six around 359 00:19:57,160 --> 00:19:58,880 there. 360 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:03,560 Got started on flute later, I think when I was 10 or 11, I think when I was 11. 361 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:08,520 And then on top of that, though, listening to a lot of the stuff that my parents like, 362 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:11,680 even just on the radio, we would listen to a lot of like older stuff. 363 00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:16,440 I grew up on The Beatles, Eagles, Fleetwood Mac. 364 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:18,240 What else would they listen to? 365 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:19,240 A lot of Chicago. 366 00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:23,760 So these like 80s and 70s types of things. 367 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:24,760 But I loved it. 368 00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:26,080 I loved all of it, would absorb it in. 369 00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:30,080 And then my grandparents on my mom's side will listen to a lot of, you know, the crooners 370 00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:37,280 like Sinatra, Engelbert Humperdinck, which is Louis Armstrong, which was really fun. 371 00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:42,560 And yeah, so kind of growing up into up until like college, that was pretty much most of 372 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:47,200 the music I would listen to, maybe a little bit of like billboard stuff here and there. 373 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:49,280 But yeah, that was mainly it. 374 00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:54,920 And the hope was that I would just come to enjoy music and appreciate art and hopefully 375 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:57,840 not go into it as a career. 376 00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:01,640 So when did you come here to America from Singapore? 377 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:06,520 And I assume if you're Singapore, you have some Chinese influence as well. 378 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:07,520 Yeah, totally. 379 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:08,760 That's a great question, Clara. 380 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:12,480 I came here like around when I was about like 19 or 20. 381 00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:14,160 So it's a good number of years at this point. 382 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:19,560 But I came here specifically for college, because I wanted to do college and I ended 383 00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:22,200 up going to a college in Boston called Berklee College of Music. 384 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:24,840 And that's where everything happened. 385 00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:27,000 But yeah, so I came here for that. 386 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:32,160 Prior to that, interestingly enough, most of my influences at the time were actually 387 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:35,760 from classical music or like random pop stuff. 388 00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:41,200 But that said, though, I did grow up with a couple of, you know, Chinese songs and stuff 389 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:43,640 from that my grandma would sing from time to time. 390 00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:47,200 Like I don't know if anyone knows this song, like Moon Represents My Heart. 391 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:48,200 Yes, yes. 392 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:51,200 Yeah, you're the only one that I want to sing. 393 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:52,200 Yeah, cool. 394 00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:53,200 There we go. 395 00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:54,960 That's the only song I still remember. 396 00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:55,960 Yeah, totally. 397 00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:59,440 So my grandma would like sing that all the time, like Ni-Won-Wai. 398 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:02,360 So she'd sing that all the time. 399 00:22:02,360 --> 00:22:07,320 And that was like one of my probably like my only like Teresa Tang songs that I still 400 00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:08,320 remember. 401 00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:10,480 So there was a little bit of that. 402 00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:15,200 But actually, speaking of like different influences, one thing that I did listen to a lot of growing 403 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:19,840 up or not so much growing up, but really as a teenager was a lot of Korean pop. 404 00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:21,800 And that kind of stuck with me through up until now. 405 00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:27,240 Like I still listen to a lot of Korean pop as well, mainly because at the time I had 406 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:31,320 a few friends who were Korean in school and they were listening to a lot of it. 407 00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:34,880 But also a lot of my non-Korean friends at the time were listening to it too. 408 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:38,160 And this was really more of like the older school bands. 409 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:42,760 So bands like, you know, H.O.T. and a little bit of like Super Junior and stuff like that. 410 00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:46,440 So it was really, really quite a while ago. 411 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:50,840 But yeah, that was another influence that kind of brought me a lot of the, I guess, 412 00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:55,760 palette of pop and electronic production before I actually knew that I wanted to do electronic 413 00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:56,760 stuff. 414 00:22:56,760 --> 00:23:00,120 Because by the time I did the electronic stuff in college, like years later, it was like, 415 00:23:00,120 --> 00:23:03,720 hey, I heard that in that K-pop song from 10 years ago. 416 00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:07,600 So then a lot of the bridges started to form. 417 00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:08,600 Yeah. 418 00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:11,920 But you also did like dance and DJ culture. 419 00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:14,840 But you also combine that with classical music, right? 420 00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:17,640 Yeah, I try to do a little bit of that too. 421 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:22,400 But for a lot of the DJing that I do as well, it's really a different paradigm from when 422 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:24,640 I do the live electronic music performance stuff. 423 00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:30,520 So for example, if I did a more DJ style type of gig, I wouldn't necessarily bring my keyboards 424 00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:31,520 along. 425 00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:33,420 I might leave that at home. 426 00:23:33,420 --> 00:23:34,880 But I might bring some more music. 427 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:39,160 Yeah, it's more like a mixing type of style between different songs. 428 00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:43,040 But I try to use the way that I DJ as a little bit of... 429 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:46,080 What's a good way to frame this? 430 00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:53,440 Yeah, I use it a little bit of an ethnomusicological type of vein as well, mainly because this 431 00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:56,480 is thinking also back to when I first got into electronic music. 432 00:23:56,480 --> 00:24:01,080 But when I first started doing a lot of it, really a lot of the figures that I would see 433 00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:07,480 in electronic music were just these white male DJs on stage pumping their fists. 434 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:10,320 And I was very curious about the history of it. 435 00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:16,560 So I went a little bit deeper into that and discovered just everything was appropriate. 436 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:20,760 Or not everything appropriate, but a lot of it came from a different culture that isn't 437 00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:22,080 really acknowledged right now. 438 00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:26,800 So for example, when I do DJ sets, I'll use it as a little bit of a chance to inform my 439 00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:30,820 audience or share a little bit more with my audience about, hey, here is a little bit 440 00:24:30,820 --> 00:24:33,560 of a historical house DJ set. 441 00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:38,320 And we go back to the founders of house in New York with Frankie Knuckles and Larry LaVann 442 00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:39,320 and stuff like that. 443 00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:43,840 And having that as a teaching tool or a tool to show people's history, I think, is one 444 00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:46,720 of the most beautiful parts of music. 445 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:50,400 Because you don't always have to stand in front of a chalkboard or a whiteboard and 446 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:51,400 draw stuff. 447 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:56,760 You can play music and be like, hey, listen to how the sounds are changing over time. 448 00:24:56,760 --> 00:25:01,720 And in a way, it kind of speaks a little bit to music in the classical sense too. 449 00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:05,920 Whenever I talk about Baroque music going to classical stuff, going to romantic stuff, 450 00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:09,320 here's the path that we draw through music. 451 00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:13,000 How do we also do that in different genres also? 452 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:16,080 So you do actually teach a lot of students too as well? 453 00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:18,800 Yeah, it's a little crazy right now. 454 00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:22,480 But yeah, most of my students at the moment are from Berkeley. 455 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:25,160 So they are my students up in Boston. 456 00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:29,800 But I still teach also at a couple of other places now and then as an adjunct. 457 00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:32,280 For example, at the City University of New York. 458 00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:38,600 Because I run a class in the MFA program over there that's called, it's not called this, 459 00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:43,840 but it focuses on using a program called Ableton Live to do a lot of sound design and composition 460 00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:44,840 and stuff like that. 461 00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:50,000 So those students will do a little bit more of studio comp work compared to a lot of my 462 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:54,760 students at Berkeley who do a little bit more of the live electronic performance types of 463 00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:55,760 things. 464 00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:56,760 Got it. 465 00:25:56,760 --> 00:25:57,760 Yeah. 466 00:25:57,760 --> 00:25:58,760 Well, you mentioned this earlier. 467 00:25:58,760 --> 00:25:59,760 So I don't want to interfere. 468 00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:03,360 But you do look very young. 469 00:26:03,360 --> 00:26:05,600 So we weren't really sure. 470 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:08,920 And you're in all this university. 471 00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:11,720 And I was just curious. 472 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:15,960 But you said you only moved here when you were 19. 473 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:18,320 So I assume you've been here for a little while. 474 00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:19,320 Right? 475 00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:20,320 Totally. 476 00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:23,400 It's funny that you mentioned that because a lot of my students will also kind of like 477 00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:25,560 guess that I'm very young. 478 00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:26,560 But it's okay. 479 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:30,800 At this point, they know that they have seen my... 480 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:35,800 I think one of the things that I try to think about a lot also as far as my own prejudices 481 00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:41,680 go is that a lot of people who, even if they look young and even if they are young, a lot 482 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:44,920 of the people who are younger than me even, they've done the work. 483 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:47,560 And that's why they're so famous. 484 00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:49,740 So I think about that a lot. 485 00:26:49,740 --> 00:26:53,440 It's a little different also, I think, compared to a lot of traditional academia types of 486 00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:59,280 spheres, because you'll often see older people, again, from that kind of white male professor 487 00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:01,480 type of generation that you see a lot. 488 00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:05,560 Honestly, when I was in college, all of my professors, I didn't have a single woman professor 489 00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:06,560 at all. 490 00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:09,520 And none of my professors were people of color. 491 00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:10,520 So it was very much... 492 00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:11,520 Oh, really? 493 00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:12,520 Yeah. 494 00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:16,920 It was very much still, even in electronic music, that's supposed to be forward thinking 495 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:18,360 and whatever, innovative. 496 00:27:18,360 --> 00:27:21,520 It was still very much anchored in that academic type of sphere. 497 00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:23,000 But now things are changing a lot. 498 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:28,080 I think even out of my department, I don't think I'm the youngest at the moment. 499 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:30,320 I think there's people who are younger than me teaching. 500 00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:33,480 And it's great, because that's what the students need. 501 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:36,360 They don't need someone who hasn't been active. 502 00:27:36,360 --> 00:27:38,000 Sure, there's a lot of experience there. 503 00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:41,760 And there's a lot of value in classes that come from these folks. 504 00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:46,400 But there's also value in classes that come from the younger people who are in the field, 505 00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:51,440 and very active, some more active than me even, who are doing stuff. 506 00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:54,800 And it's good, because then students have these many options. 507 00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:58,680 You get to learn from the OGs, and then you get to learn from the newer folks too, who 508 00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:00,720 are taking the new level. 509 00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:03,040 So I like that a lot, about Berkeley at least. 510 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:07,920 So I was actually asking about how did you actually lend your agent? 511 00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:11,080 So have you had it for a long time? 512 00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:13,600 Oh, my agent? 513 00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:20,040 As far as my artist stuff goes, for a long time, I was actually just doing my own stuff. 514 00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:23,120 Like it was just me, and it was stressing me out a lot. 515 00:28:23,120 --> 00:28:24,120 I'm sure. 516 00:28:24,120 --> 00:28:29,800 So I had a time where I thought, okay, I should get someone to help me a little bit out. 517 00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:33,720 And I used to do a lot of these events, or I would not do a lot of them, but I would 518 00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:37,320 go to a lot of these events for women in music. 519 00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:42,800 And at one of these particular events, I met my current assistant or agent, Liz. 520 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:49,200 And she was a music business student at NYU. 521 00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:50,200 And she was really great. 522 00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:53,240 And we kind of just met at this one event because we both went there. 523 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:55,880 We didn't know anybody, so we ended up chatting. 524 00:28:55,880 --> 00:29:00,640 But I found out that she was helping a couple of her friends at the time, who are now also 525 00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:03,120 artists and touring actively. 526 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:07,080 She was still a student at the time, and I think I had just graduated or something. 527 00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:10,480 But she was saying, hey, why don't we maybe touch base a little bit? 528 00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:13,040 If you ever need help with anything, let me know. 529 00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:17,520 And yeah, so we've been working together for about a year or so at this point, but she 530 00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:19,640 helps me a lot with admin stuff. 531 00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:22,760 Thanks, Liz, and putting things together. 532 00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:23,760 And I think it's important. 533 00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:28,360 Maybe this also goes back to what Yumiko said just now about having a team. 534 00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:30,880 At the moment, it was just previously, it was just me. 535 00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:32,400 Now at the moment, it's me and Liz. 536 00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:35,220 And sometimes I have another friend also helping me with social media stuff. 537 00:29:35,220 --> 00:29:36,220 So it's like three of us. 538 00:29:36,220 --> 00:29:39,800 But maybe down the road, if things get bigger, I might need a bigger team. 539 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:44,400 And then eventually it'll get to the stage where instead of me touring on other people's 540 00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:49,000 teams, I'm also doing the same thing with me, but it's like with my own team. 541 00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:53,040 So maybe that also goes a little bit back to just being able to make connections with 542 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:59,000 people and ask for help when you need to and don't die under the weight of everything that's 543 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:02,360 crumbling when you have to manage so many things at once. 544 00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:03,360 So yeah. 545 00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:04,960 Yeah, totally. 546 00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:09,680 Asking for help is certainly a very necessary skill in our field. 547 00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:12,840 I wanted to circle back to songwriting. 548 00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:15,200 Can you tell us a little bit about your creative process? 549 00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:17,400 What is it like for you starting a new song? 550 00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:18,840 Yeah, totally. 551 00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:22,280 As far as songwriting goes, and this is something interesting that I was actually just talking 552 00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:28,120 to one of my other colleagues about, but a lot of people who do electronic music, they 553 00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:32,800 often think of themselves as producers mainly, which I do as well. 554 00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:36,880 But for me, it's very much a merger of writer and producer. 555 00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:39,520 So I'm so glad that you mentioned songwriting, Eric. 556 00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:40,840 It's a big part of the process for me. 557 00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:44,200 And I think really, there's nothing... 558 00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:50,040 If a production sounds good, but it has a bad writing style or bad song, it's totally 559 00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:52,200 destroyed from the get-go. 560 00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:56,720 So for me, the process for writing often is centered around a concept. 561 00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:58,480 And I like to think about... 562 00:30:58,480 --> 00:30:59,480 Not so much very... 563 00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:02,800 Sometimes it is very specific, but sometimes it's also broad. 564 00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:05,120 So it could be an example. 565 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:06,120 What's a recent example? 566 00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:10,560 So it could be something like the idea of being defeated, right? 567 00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:15,520 Maybe you've tried to do something and you've failed, or it could also be you've had a conversation 568 00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:17,360 with someone and they keep trying to shoot you down. 569 00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:21,080 There's a lot of ways that you can experience defeat. 570 00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:25,040 And I then try to create some kind of song that's related to the emotions associated 571 00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:26,040 with that. 572 00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:30,720 So not so much the actual topic itself, but a lot of the time, the emotions. 573 00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:34,240 And the reason I bring up Defeated is because that's actually the name of my next song that's 574 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:36,640 coming up. 575 00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:38,720 So that's a little bit of my process for that. 576 00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:44,200 I created the song based on this idea of you've tried your best at doing something, but you 577 00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:47,520 keep on falling flat on your face. 578 00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:53,360 And in this particular context, it was through the eyes of looking at a relationship, but 579 00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:54,360 it doesn't have to be. 580 00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:56,880 It could be even dealing with your daily life, right? 581 00:31:56,880 --> 00:31:58,440 You try to do something, you keep failing. 582 00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:01,960 You try to practice something on your instrument or whatever, and you keep failing. 583 00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:04,400 Just keep getting defeated. 584 00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:06,280 So I like thinking of that a lot. 585 00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:10,040 And related to that, and this goes back to the process itself, I do a lot of these things 586 00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:14,160 called word pools, where it's like, I'll think of the word defeat, right? 587 00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:16,160 And then what's related to that? 588 00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:17,160 Defeat. 589 00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:19,380 Battle is related to that. 590 00:32:19,380 --> 00:32:23,600 Maybe the concept of getting hurt is related to that. 591 00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:25,840 Like if you fall down, you get hurt, you're defeated. 592 00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:31,400 So I do a lot of these word pools, and that ends up helping me with my lyrics in the songwriting. 593 00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:37,480 So I'll kind of like bring them back in and have them tie back into the theme of the song. 594 00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:38,880 But yeah, it always starts with the theme. 595 00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:44,280 It kind of goes out a little bit more general, and then it comes back and is more specific. 596 00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:45,280 Yes. 597 00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:46,280 Yeah. 598 00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:49,780 So I do something similar myself sometimes when I'm composing. 599 00:32:49,780 --> 00:32:57,200 So once you have your word pool or your associated emotions, how do you start with the musical 600 00:32:57,200 --> 00:32:58,200 ideas? 601 00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:00,360 Do you improvise on a piano or sing or what? 602 00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:02,400 Yeah, I'll be honest. 603 00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:07,320 Most of the time, if I am doing a very song based type of idea, it's always piano and 604 00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:08,320 vocals. 605 00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:12,480 So that's where really a lot of the training has helped in. 606 00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:17,240 Because now I can just walk over to my keyboard and be just like, those are the chords. 607 00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:19,240 That's the song. 608 00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:23,280 Versus if I didn't have that, I'd probably be struggling a little bit more, poking around 609 00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:24,280 in my software. 610 00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:29,560 But yeah, pretty much it always is just piano and lyrics or piano and melody. 611 00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:30,760 I sing on top of it. 612 00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:34,960 And I'm honestly not a good singer, but I've trained myself to sing in an acceptable way. 613 00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:37,000 That's what I try to see. 614 00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:39,440 I mean, you sound great on everything I've heard. 615 00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:40,440 That's very nice. 616 00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:41,440 Thank you. 617 00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:44,040 But yeah, sometimes I'll play stuff and I'll experiment with it. 618 00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:45,240 I'll sing it with my own voice. 619 00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:47,100 And it's like, that sounds a little odd. 620 00:33:47,100 --> 00:33:51,320 But if it sounds good, then I probably know that I'm onto something. 621 00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:54,920 Just because I feel like, again, going back to the songwriting process, if it doesn't 622 00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:59,080 feel like a compelling idea on the piano, I feel like it probably won't be a compelling 623 00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:01,280 idea even if I produced it out. 624 00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:02,280 And that's for me. 625 00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:07,160 I know some people will manage to take a very mediocre song and polish the hell out of it 626 00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:08,160 and it will turn out great. 627 00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:12,960 But at least for me, coming from the place of, again, the more compositional side, if 628 00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:16,920 I have confidence in the composition, I know that I'm going to have confidence in the production 629 00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:17,920 too. 630 00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:18,920 So yeah. 631 00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:20,880 Yeah, that makes sense. 632 00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:25,360 I want to ask you, how do you balance that? 633 00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:28,880 Playing on an acoustic instrument and then when it comes to the electronic production, 634 00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:31,960 there's so much work, right? 635 00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:36,320 Finding your sounds, samples, mixing. 636 00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:40,000 Sometimes I have trouble integrating those two worlds, which seems so very, like one 637 00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:41,800 is kind of like organic from nature. 638 00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:43,800 It feels like playing acoustic instruments. 639 00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:48,280 And then when you get into your DAW, you're kind of locked into a lot of little boxes, 640 00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:49,280 right? 641 00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:50,280 And loops. 642 00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:51,720 How do you manage that balance? 643 00:34:51,720 --> 00:34:52,720 Yeah, absolutely. 644 00:34:52,720 --> 00:34:56,200 To be honest, Eric, I sometimes still struggle with it too. 645 00:34:56,200 --> 00:34:57,200 It's so hard. 646 00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:00,720 And mainly it's because, I don't know, I feel like for me, and maybe y'all might feel the 647 00:35:00,720 --> 00:35:04,640 same way too, but when I think about some of these acoustic sounds, like thinking back 648 00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:09,600 to the flute, for example, or even the piano, like a really nice Steinway. 649 00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:11,440 Nothing beats a really nice Steinway, right? 650 00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:16,320 Something about the sound of the instrument is so powerful. 651 00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:20,520 And that's why sometimes I end up recording these things, like just recording them instead 652 00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:21,520 of programming things in. 653 00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:25,440 But yeah, that's a challenge that I always have. 654 00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:31,240 Sometimes my solution in a weird sort of way is to run in the total opposite direction. 655 00:35:31,240 --> 00:35:36,480 So if it starts off with a piano type of sound, I'll purposely choose a really obscure kind 656 00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:40,480 of, I don't know, synth pad or something, synth key sound that sounds very different 657 00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:43,720 to put me into a totally different frame of mind. 658 00:35:43,720 --> 00:35:49,400 And it's a little bit of like forcibly removing me from the piano sound a little. 659 00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:52,400 Sometimes I'll inevitably end up returning to it, for example, like if I do record the 660 00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:53,760 sound like I mentioned. 661 00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:57,520 But sometimes when I'm just trying to get something into my DAW, I'll purposely pick 662 00:35:57,520 --> 00:36:02,360 something that isn't acoustic and see where that takes me. 663 00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:04,280 But otherwise, yeah, it's always a struggle. 664 00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:09,160 And in terms of like the loop situation, which you mentioned, I get so stuck in that too. 665 00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:13,600 So sometimes what I found myself doing is for a lot of the production stuff, especially 666 00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:17,880 if it tends to be a song that I've written out the chorus for and then I want to produce 667 00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:21,760 after that, I will work on, say, four bars. 668 00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:25,920 But then I'll set myself a timer, again, going back to like the phone as the best tool you 669 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:26,920 could ever have. 670 00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:31,080 I'll use my phone and set myself a timer of like 10 minutes or something. 671 00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:36,280 And it's like, Daltrik has got 10 minutes to figure out how to put this into a three 672 00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:37,280 minute arrangement. 673 00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:38,800 And then I'm just like, go. 674 00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:40,240 And I'll do all of that. 675 00:36:40,240 --> 00:36:43,680 So I kind of force myself to do a little bit of structuring. 676 00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:44,740 And it's tough. 677 00:36:44,740 --> 00:36:46,000 It always is, I think. 678 00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:50,360 But it's one part maybe about the production process that I still love very much because 679 00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:51,460 it's tough. 680 00:36:51,460 --> 00:36:55,560 And because it challenges me, I think probably the day where I've failed and I have nothing 681 00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:59,720 else left to do in the world of electronic music production is when I feel like I can't 682 00:36:59,720 --> 00:37:03,480 do anything exciting or I don't feel challenged to do something. 683 00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:05,720 So I kind of like that a little bit. 684 00:37:05,720 --> 00:37:07,840 A little bit masochistic, I guess. 685 00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:09,200 But I don't know. 686 00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:10,400 I love it. 687 00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:11,400 It is a challenge. 688 00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:14,080 And you've given us so many wonderful solutions. 689 00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:18,400 There's that whole theme of limitations inspiring creativity, right? 690 00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:21,760 That's our biggest trick we've got in the bag. 691 00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:23,360 Can I jump in just a little bit? 692 00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:24,360 Sure, go ahead. 693 00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:25,360 Yeah. 694 00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:32,880 So you're now a sound engineer, sound designer, not only a composer and musician. 695 00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:35,960 That's just beyond my understanding. 696 00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:37,600 I mean, it's awesome. 697 00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:42,160 I've encountered so many different artists living in New York City, obviously. 698 00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:46,800 And then I met this lighting artist and that was just that blew my mind. 699 00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:51,200 It's like the concept, new concept of art. 700 00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:53,560 And then that's exactly what you're doing. 701 00:37:53,560 --> 00:38:01,580 So were you interested in like because as a classical musicians, we talk about harmonies, 702 00:38:01,580 --> 00:38:05,680 we talk about tone color, right? 703 00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:13,760 But let's say we turn the clock backwards and go back to where Beethoven was, right? 704 00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:21,040 And probably at the time he was somewhat close to, you know, maybe sound engineer. 705 00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:26,280 You know, he was experimenting with the sound because the biggest sound in his time would 706 00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:27,280 be what? 707 00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:30,160 A big, big old ship, right? 708 00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:36,640 Or I don't know, or cannonball, cannon, you know, the big sound. 709 00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:43,280 And that I know he was deaf at the end, but maybe that's some kind of a as a young Beethoven, 710 00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:44,480 he was inspiring. 711 00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:47,200 And how can I have this big sound in orchestra? 712 00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:48,200 Right. 713 00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:50,460 So he was doing his sound engineer. 714 00:38:50,460 --> 00:38:55,200 So were you as a growing up, were you interested in sound? 715 00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:59,280 I mean, you know, I didn't think of that concept until. 716 00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:00,280 Yeah, totally. 717 00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:05,640 I mean, growing up, you hear me in terms of like sounds, I don't think I was necessarily 718 00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:08,760 interested in like, oh, that sounds like it's not a piano. 719 00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:09,760 What is it? 720 00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:13,080 I wasn't really that focused yet when I was growing up. 721 00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:18,000 But absolutely, I did think a lot about like, how do we use existing sounds to paint pictures? 722 00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:22,000 And I think that's one of like the biggest takeaways that I had from like maybe my study 723 00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:26,720 of like programmatic music, like back when I was my god, so many years ago now, over 724 00:39:26,720 --> 00:39:27,720 a decade ago. 725 00:39:27,720 --> 00:39:31,600 But yeah, even just going back to since you were talking about Beethoven, like this just 726 00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:32,600 came to mind, too. 727 00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:38,520 But the idea of, you know, painting pictures even through a limited number of colors, like 728 00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:42,080 I think a lot about the the Pastoral Symphony and stuff like that. 729 00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:44,420 And it's like, how is he creating that kind of atmosphere? 730 00:39:44,420 --> 00:39:47,160 Like what what instrumentation is he using to do that? 731 00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:51,200 And I feel like it's kind of the same thing, like much like you would have, say, in that 732 00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:56,120 context, the woodwinds representing a bird, maybe an electronic that's not necessarily 733 00:39:56,120 --> 00:40:00,440 woodwinds, but maybe you've got some kind of synthesizer sound that's very high up in 734 00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:02,880 the frequencies that's doing a lot of like, you know, bird stuff. 735 00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:08,200 And if it's, you know, a drone thing for a pastoral kind of like, you know, very idyllic 736 00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:14,120 sort of atmosphere, then maybe it's not, you know, a low kind of held out note on whatever 737 00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:16,200 instrument like cello or something. 738 00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:20,900 But maybe it's like an actual drone where you play a note on your instrument and it's 739 00:40:20,900 --> 00:40:23,200 just held out for a super long time. 740 00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:26,760 So I think a lot about of I think about a lot of orchestration like that, too, when 741 00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:31,280 I'm doing production stuff. 742 00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:34,920 This concludes part one of our interview with Claire Marie Lim. 743 00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:38,880 Tune in next time to find out how Claire learned music production, hear about her career as 744 00:40:38,880 --> 00:41:01,440 an activist, and more.