You're listening to the piano part where we talk to the brightest minds in the industry
about how they're bringing the piano into the 21st century.
Last time we spoke to music technologist Claire Marie Lim about her creative process and the
integration of classical foundations with modern genres and technology.
And now the conclusion.
How did you learn production?
Was it through Berkeley?
Was it YouTube videos?
Because it's really top notch.
Yeah.
Thank you so much, Erie.
That means a lot.
I'll be very honest.
I think I grew the most after I was done with college.
And I think it's because college gave me a lot of the tools that I had, but it was still,
it still took me time to learn them.
I listened back to a lot of the pieces that I made while I was still a college student
and it's like, yeah, they're okay.
But you can definitely hear the beginnings of Daltrik trying to poke around and being
like, what is this doing?
Which is not to say that I didn't understand things.
I understood things conceptually.
This is how this synthesizer works or this is how this compressor works or whatever it
is.
This is how that sound engineering type of thing works.
But being able to just put my nose to the grindstone and work at it, that really came
after college.
And I think it was just a lot of practice.
And actually, this is maybe the biggest tip I could share if there's a biggest tip.
I started using my ears a lot more.
I don't know if, and this is a very weird sort of thing to say as well, I think, but
growing up as a pianist, even though I did do a lot of classical piano stuff, my ears
were not super strong.
For example, I would play a piece and if I were to mess up halfway, I would be totally
lost because I'd be like, if I memorized it, right?
I memorized a piece by Brahms or something, play the thing.
And I use that as an example just because the harmonies are so beautiful, right?
But it's like, if you forget something, that's it.
You're totally out of it.
Versus now, it's funny, I actually revisited this piece not long ago.
I'm thinking of the intermezzo in A major, like opus 118.
But I played that back when I was much, much younger and I remember having a total brain
fart where I gave up halfway because I couldn't remember the piece.
I revisited it a couple of months ago and I managed to play it and this time I was like,
wait, this is that chord.
This is this chord, la, la, la.
So I started having a lot of these more solid connections between what I was listening to
and what I was actually playing and doing.
The reason I bring about this anecdote of using the ears is because I think being a
classically trained musician took me a lot away from relying on the ears and instead
relying on eyes for notation.
But the moment I started doing a lot of the listening, that helped a lot also with my
production stuff because then I would be listening to a song and I'd be like, okay, yes, that's
a very cool synthesizer part.
Okay, so we know it's a synthesizer, but what kind of wave is it made with?
Is it like a saw wave or is it like a sine wave or whatever?
And also, is it coming in very quickly?
Does it have a very fast attack like a piano or is it more like fading in?
And then what kind of effects does it have?
Does it have reverb?
Does it have a delay on it or a filter or something?
And being able to use that part of the listening toolkit to apply that to electronic music
helped me realize that, okay, so I know what that sound sounds like.
Now I'm looking in my production software and it sounds like that, which doesn't sound
like the original.
So how do I get closer to that sound?
And that was really something that I only developed after college.
I was developing beginnings of that as a student, but it was really when I really started doing
a lot of this regular practice and opening my ears very literally to stuff that my production
I think got a lot better.
So I don't know if that helps, Ari.
That was like a very roundabout of seeing that.
Yeah, no, it makes total sense to me.
I mean, you're basically talking about the difference between playing music versus making
music, right?
Totally.
Yes.
Yeah.
Have you ever heard of, I think it's Centorial.
Do you know that?
Yes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Totally.
Right.
Because I tried a few lessons in that where they give you a synth sound and then you have
to try to make it yourself.
I knew I was bad, but I didn't think I was that bad.
It was really hard.
But I feel like this is the modern equivalent of your training, right?
Yeah, it totally is.
And that's actually things that I do with my students.
So if any of my students are listening to this, which they might, it's like now you
know where it comes from.
Now you know why we do the thing.
Yeah, we'll play a sound or sometimes it'll be something that they bring to.
They bring to the table.
So they're like, hey, there's this new song that's on the radio.
Let's listen to it and let's kind of think a little bit about how that works.
And sometimes it's not even a sound, but it could be something like the processing on
a vocal, for example.
So like this singer's voice, like how are they processing his or her voice or their
voice, right?
What kind of effects do they put on their vocal chain in that case?
And that's a part of the ear training to listening to all of these different artists types of
sounds and then being how do we recreate that if we want to?
So I'm very curious about this Ableton.
Sorry, I have to read.
I'm so old.
You know, the Ableton keypad.
Yeah.
Can you show us if you have in front of you?
So this is something.
This is an instrument that's called the Ableton Push.
And it works very interestingly because the layout will change depending on what you want
it to be, which is it's kind of fun.
The cool part about it is that let me see if I can also share my sound.
So the cool part about this, too, is that it's not just specific to one type of sound.
So it could pretty much be like any sound that you want it to.
At the moment, I've got some kind of electric piano sound pulled up.
But that's how you kind of play it.
And I don't know if anyone plays guitar.
Maybe some of the listeners will play guitar.
But this particular layout is very similar to guitar.
So each note that's directly above each other is a fourth above each other.
So for example, that's your major chord.
That's F. That's G. So you can play a lot of these chords everywhere.
But yeah, this is my main controller that I like using a lot.
The main reason why I do it is because of what I mentioned just now, which is that it
doesn't.
Sorry, let me move my mic.
The main reason why I like playing it so much is because you can have different types of
sounds.
So the electronic piano electric piano is one of them at the moment.
But I'd love to get a suggestion from any of y'all.
Would you like to hear a different instrument?
Maybe we can find something else.
Something weird.
Yeah.
OK, cool.
Something out there.
Yeah, maybe something weird.
So I'm going to browse for a different sound.
Maybe like let's do an effect.
So OK, cool.
Can I ask Claire, are these sounds loaded into the controller or is it separately on
your computer?
Yeah, so these are all that's a great question, Eric.
So these are all in the software.
So in the software Ableton Live, you have to connect this to the software for it to work.
So very honestly, like if I didn't connect this to my computer, it would just be like
a really expensive paperweight, like a $700 paperweight.
But yeah, let's see what happens if we load like this one up.
That one was kind of fun.
So let's see.
Cool.
So we got some lasers now going.
If we wanted to, we could also do something that's like totally different.
So maybe let's do yeah, let's do some drums so you can do like some drum kits as well,
which is kind of fun.
Let's see if we can do.
Yeah, let's do like a classic 808 thing.
Load that.
Cool.
So now the layout has changed, right?
We're not seeing those notes anymore, but now we're seeing drums so I can do like drums
over here.
So it's really flexible.
It's one of my favorite parts about using this instrument.
It is created by the company Ableton that also creates the software Ableton Live.
So that's the software that I was connecting to my that is in my computer that I'm connecting
to at the moment.
So it integrates really well with that software.
Yeah, that's the instrument.
Awesome.
Thank you for the demonstration.
Is this the future of piano keyboard?
Are we going to forget about this black and white and is that the future?
I don't know.
Honestly, that's a great question, Kimi.
I think that for I often tell my students that like a lot of the time it's not so much
the same instrument, but I try to help them think of it as a totally different instrument
because the piano is one thing.
And then the piano keyboard synthesizers are also a different thing.
And then you have this sort of thing, right?
Because I remember, for example, this is a little bit of a side anecdote, but the very
first time that I touched a synthesizer, I thought it was going to be the same because
it was a piano keyboard, right?
But I basically had to relearn all of my technique because the action is so different.
So when you play it, it's like it's a totally different type of thing.
It's like springs instead of the actual, you know, hammer action that you have.
So it feels really, really different.
And I remember at first I hated it because I was like, oh, what's this like plastic thing?
So I hated it at first.
But after a while, you kind of get used to it.
So that's why I think a little bit about this sort of instrument being totally different.
And that's a little bit of what we do at Berkeley College of Music too.
Like the program that I teach in specifically is called the Electronic Digital Instrument
Program.
So a lot of my students do have a keyboard background in part because we do use keyboard
controllers in their instruments too.
But some of them will use push and some of them will use other instruments that look
a little more different.
Also there's like lots of different instruments too.
So it really depends on the student.
And that's why we think of it as a totally separate vein.
So I think maybe it is the future, but I don't think it will replace the piano.
I think it'll all kind of grow together, if that makes sense.
Yeah.
So what's your advice for classical musicians who are interested in broadening their field
or horizons?
Yeah, that's a really great question.
I think a lot of the time it's just being open.
And this is also thinking back to my experience, but some of the experiences of my students
too.
Sometimes we get so locked in the things that we're used to that the moment we step out
of the comfort zone, it's so jarring that we just like freeze up a little bit.
So I think being open is really interesting.
If people are interested and they come from a classical piano background and you want
to get maybe a little bit of insight into something that could be kind of a little so
classical, but going into the more electronic side, there's a really wonderful set of albums
by Wendy Carlos called Switched on Bach that I would highly recommend.
This was done back in like the sixties and the seventies, but basically Wendy Carlos,
she's an amazing electronic musician, one of the very first electronic musicians to
do this.
She did entirely orchestrated synthesizer versions of Pieces by Bach.
So for example, there's like the two part inventions like in A minor, for example, she
did that, but instead of having just the two voices for right hand and left hand piano,
she re-orchestrated everything so that it would be like, okay, there's like a high synth
part playing the right hand in this section.
Later on when the left hand enters, it's like another type of synthesizer and it's really,
really beautiful.
I really encourage people to listen to it.
It's called Switched on Bach and there's, I think, Switched on Bach one and then Switched
on Bach two.
And then she also did, I think, a version of the Well-Tempered Clairvier as well, also
in the synthesizer version of stuff.
So if people are interested in that, I would highly recommend.
So Claire, we're getting a little long now and we still have rapid fire questions to
go, but I wanted to make sure that we touch on something very important, which you've
already alluded to, which is your efforts in activism, right?
Because like you said, in our musical field, sometimes they're predominantly white, male,
historically speaking.
So can you talk a little bit about your efforts in this area?
Yeah, specifically, I think a lot of the work that I do, Eric, is related to the field of
music tech, but also even in just like music in general, I think.
We see a lot of these, especially even from the classical sphere and the jazz sphere,
there's still a lot of non-white people whose voices have yet to be heard.
So a lot of the time when I'm working with young people, especially, I work a lot with
youth and a lot with kids K to 12 as well.
It's really just about showing up and being there.
And it might seem very, very simple and very rudimentary, but even just walking into a
classroom, a lot of the time when I've done talks, for example, about music and I walk
into a classroom and there's a few students who are not white and they're just looking
at this random Asian lady who's walked in, it means something to them.
And a lot of the time, even after I've done a certain talk at a certain location, I've
done music tech work or I've showed them synths and software and stuff like that, there have
been students who have come up to me and be like, hey, thank you for being here.
Because every other teacher that I've seen or every other person I've seen do this has
not looked like me, but now I know it's possible.
And that's pretty much exactly the same thing that happened for me.
Apart from that one night that changed my life with the live electronic music stuff
with Disclosure, the other night that I really think about a lot was when I saw an artist
called Toki Monster perform.
And Toki Monster was the very first woman of Asian descent nominated for a Grammy in
the dance and electronic music category.
And that was only in 2019, so it's not too long ago.
But I saw her perform many years ago when I was still a student.
And that was a night where I was like, she looks like me, this is not impossible.
So that meant a lot.
And I think about that so much.
So that kind of, in a way, was one of the reasons why I try to do a lot of this activism
stuff or I try to integrate it into my education.
So I'll bring a lot of that element into some of these spaces where I work in.
And to be very frank, most of the spaces that I do work in have strong populations of people
of color.
So it really does make a difference when people see diversity and when they see different
representation in different areas of fields.
Some things I've tried to do also is when I know that I can't be, I shouldn't be the
right person to do this, I try to open it up to someone who should.
For example, I recently did something that was focused actually a little bit more on
dance music culture, and it was specifically also for a group of students that was more
students of color.
And I offered it up to one of my other friends who was specifically black, and he does a
lot of DJ culture and a lot of history as well.
And I said, this is the perfect person to do this.
So I think that's also something that we can do as well in our sphere as educators and
just people being aware of what is a good time to show up and when is a good time to
show up to a certain group of students who need to see it or to a certain audience who
needs to see it.
It doesn't just need to be students, but it could be a different audience.
So I try to do a little bit of that as well when I'm working with different groups, not
just showing you cool stuff, how to press buttons, but also teaching people a little
bit about the more historical side or being aware of the cultural connotations of some
of these things that we're working with.
Right.
Yeah, because ultimately everybody has a voice that deserves to be heard.
Right?
Yeah, totally.
And I think for a lot of the at least for them, and this is going back to the younger
kids that I work with too, but for a lot of them, I think they don't realize that a lot
of these norms exist when they're so young.
They don't.
So they're still open to a lot of these ideas.
I'm really talking about like super young, like four or five year olds.
The reason why I think about them is because one of the incidents that did for sure shape
a lot of what I'm doing now is I used to tour a lot with this group called Alphabet Rockers.
Shout out to Alphabet Rockers.
They're a double Grammy nominated hip hop group that does a lot of hip hop, but for
kids.
So they do a lot of social justice types of work and a lot of the audience is in that
age group.
So it's like four or five year olds, sometimes a little bit older, like teens and stuff like
that.
But there was one concert we did for these kindergartners or first graders or something.
And I was doing the on stage DJing and playback stuff for them.
After the show, we had a meet and greet and every single one of the kids that came up
to me and asked about stuff or like wanted to say hi, they were all girls.
And I think if I hadn't been a woman, that wouldn't have happened.
And then like all the boys were like in the back.
And I just thought of like, imagine all of these opportunities where maybe there wasn't
a woman here and there it was just the boys that were coming up and all of these girls
wouldn't have the chance or the courage really to acknowledge like, hey, I want to find out
more about what she's doing or what they're doing on stage and stuff.
So I think a lot about these actual practical things happening.
Not practical, but like real life situations happening and the real effect that it has
on a person just because I think of the real effect that it had on me at the time.
So yeah.
Yeah.
I don't want to go off on too big a tangent here, but that's the thing.
I know sometimes people get down on social justice and there's a lot of fighting in the
news and stuff like that, but we're talking about real people, right?
Real experiences.
When somebody comes up to you like that and says, you know, you inspired me.
Yeah.
That's so meaningful and so powerful.
So kudos to you for doing that, for taking your platform.
Thanks for letting me share that.
I don't often get to talk about that.
So thank you.
Yeah.
I think that's something that we believe it's important too.
We got to wrap up pretty soon, but I just want to ask you quickly before we move on
to rapid fire, I think as a music technologist, what do you see in the future?
What's the future of music?
Yeah.
Wow.
That's such a tough question, Eric.
We want your perspective.
Yeah, totally.
Very honestly, I think there's so many possibilities that I don't think I'd be able to touch all
of them, but at least from one thing in my current line of sight, I guess, is that there's
a lot of more people who I think will have the courage to try things out without all
of these barriers before them.
So for example, I'm thinking back to, this is a little bit more of an older school stuff
too, but even going back to the studio, just now Claire mentioned she has this set up as
a studio, but like 10 years ago, that might not have been the case for a lot of people.
They wouldn't have been able to do that on their own and have the courage to do their
things for themselves.
So I think there's going to be a lot of that.
I hesitate to use this word, but I think it makes sense in this case, like a more democratic
approach to music creation.
It's like everyone kind of has the same tools, and it won't always be the same, but even
just starting, say, with phones, like if you have a phone, being able to use that as part
of your creative process, creative technology process, having your phone be your first foray
into making sound or building beats and stuff like that.
I think that's going to be something that will definitely be in the future.
And to that end, I think just even more diversity in the music that we're hearing, not just
from the people also, but even just styles, stylistically.
I think a lot of people, when they make music, and this is something that I tell to my students
and my mentees as well, but it's definitely not, it might be a little bit cliche, but
it's not an understatement to say that no one else is going to make the music that you're
going to make, because it's true.
No one else is you.
All right, so if you don't make something, no one else is going to do it for you, and
no one else is going to make it in the exact same way.
So I think to that end, there's going to be a lot more different types of music styles
that we'll be hearing.
Sure, it might sound similar, but I think there's a lot of power in everybody kind of
realizing their own version of the music that they're hearing in their heads.
So I think that's kind of what I see in the immediate future.
I think there's so many possibilities, though, like even the crazy music tech developments
that are developing all the time, like I was just talking to some of my other friends the
other day about this, but now it's not just physical controllers, right?
But I did a little bit of work with this pair of gloves called the Mimiu gloves that are
basically gloves, but they're controlling music.
So if you do something like if you make a certain gesture, it plays a certain chord
or it puts on a certain effect.
So there's that too, which is like, maybe that's an example of how crazy things will
get in the most wonderful sort of way.
Sorry, Tintra.
Yeah, I saw your video of that.
That was cool.
I had no idea that that was happening.
It's really weird.
Yeah, it's weird in the best sort of ways.
And I mean that in like a very wonderful in awe type of way.
But yeah, that's just a fraction, I think, of stuff that people are developing now.
So who knows what will happen next?
Great.
Well, we really appreciate your insight and your perspective.
So thank you for sharing that with us.
So we're going to move on to our rapid fire questions.
All right.
So this is short and sweet to the point.
All right.
And we'll take turns, the three of us.
So I'll go first.
Number one, what is your comfort food?
Oh my God.
Oh, no.
This is terrible.
Okay, I'll go for Singaporean food, Chak Kui Teow.
Yeah, okay.
Number two, cats or dogs?
Oh, no, cats.
Oh, no, you said dogs first.
I don't know if you can take that back.
What is your word or words to live by?
Ah, okay.
Word cards, stay humble, don't be late by Iskander Ismail.
Yeah, I know it's short.
It's supposed to be rapid fire.
But I just want to say that Iskander Ismail is a Singaporean composer who inspired me
very much back in the day.
So that was a coat that I took from my mentor who was his mentee, my mentor, Julian Wong.
Hi, Julian.
Julian's watching.
Yeah.
Wonderful.
Thank you.
What is the most important quality you look for in other people?
Wow.
Oh my God.
These are so deep.
It's Yukimi's question.
I can't take that.
That's good, Yukimi, thank you.
Patience.
Very important for sure.
And by the same token, what is the worst quality in people that you want to stay away from?
Cool.
And maybe this is a little bit of myself too.
Bad temperedness, like losing your temper.
Okay.
Name three people who inspire you, living or dead.
Oh my God.
Let's see, my grandfather and my mentor when I was, Mr. Xiao, my mentor when I was in high
school doing music and also Toki Monster.
Which historical figure or composer do you want to learn or take lessons from if she
or he were alive?
Probably Nadia Boulanger.
I love her ideas about sound.
Yes, Nadia Boulanger.
Great.
Which historical figure composer do you wish to hang out with at the bar if she or he were
alive?
Oh, interesting.
Well, maybe Bach.
I don't know.
I think it would be fun to chat with him about all of the same things that he's written many
times.
Probably Bach.
Well, I love Bach too, so we can all hang together.
So my turn.
Name one piece in your current playlist.
Oh, one piece in my current playlist.
I've been listening a lot to a tune called Never Enough by Disclosure.
So that's one piece.
Cool.
All right.
Maybe we'll list that in our Spotify as well.
Name a book title you're currently reading.
Oh, I'm reading quite a few.
Oh dear.
Well, let's see.
What would be a good one?
The reason I hesitated was because the one that initially came to mind, and you can feel
free to edit this out, but it's called Assholes.
So I don't know.
That's why I was like, okay, I probably shouldn't say that.
It's actually in the background over there.
Whoops.
If that's okay, then that's the book that I've been currently reading.
It's very fun.
It talks a lot about the human condition actually and about narcissism, which is why I thought
it was interesting.
Another book that I've been reading is Revisiting, actually, was Becoming by Michelle Obama.
So that's been another one that I've been looking at too.
But yeah, feel free to edit that first part out.
We'll keep both.
Maybe it will be.
Oh no.
You get only one song or piece to listen to for the rest of your life.
What is it?
Oh wow.
That one's tough.
You know, maybe it would be, it would probably be the, yeah, I think I will say, I wasn't
sure about this, but I'm pretty sure.
The Arthur Rubinstein version of Intermezzo in A Me is like one of my favorites all the
time.
It's one of the reasons that I still go back to a lot of classical music stuff, even if
the rest of my world is electronic, because it puts me into a good space.
Yes.
That's exciting.
We have to talk more.
Rubinstein is also my personal god.
So music is blank.
What is the blank?
Music is a world of possibilities.
Awesome.
That is a wonderful answer.
All right.
Thank you so much, Claire.
Before we, before we wrap up, do you want to talk a little bit about Beat Tover and
what it is?
Yeah, totally.
Thanks, Eric.
Thank you so much for having me.
This was so fun.
I'm so excited.
So I'm currently doing this October long project called Beat Tover, where I make a little bit
of music every day.
Previous years, I tried to do a little bit of a theme for every year.
So this year I'm actually doing a new song every day, which is not killing me yet.
We'll see how it is.
By the time this podcast gets released, we will see if I'm still alive.
But yeah, if folks want to follow me, that's going to be at Daltrix, so D-O-L-L-T-R-I-C-K
on all social media platforms.
Or if you look on the greater internet, it is D-O-L-L-T-R-exclamation point C-K in all
lowercase letters.
Sometimes the spelling throws people a little bit off.
But as long as you do the all lowercase letters and the exclamation point, you should find
me.
So that's a little bit of that.
All right.
Well, thank you so much.
That's going to wrap up this episode of the Piano Pod.
Thank you, Claire, for joining us today and sharing all your wonderful thoughts on so
many different subjects.
And once again, I will remind the audience, if you want to find out more about Claire,
her website is ClaireMarieLym.com.
And she also has a website for Daltrix specifically, at Daltrix.com.
Check the description for the links.
If you enjoyed today's episode, please rate and review on whatever podcasting platform
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If you have feedback for us, please leave it in the comments or DM us via social media,
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And we will see you all for the next episode of the Piano Pod.
Bye, everybody.
Thank you, Claire.
Bye.
Bye, Claire.