1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,800 Hello everyone, welcome back to the PianoPod. I'm Yuki Miisong. I'm Clara Zhang. 2 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:08,200 For anyone listening or watching our show for the first time, welcome! 3 00:00:08,200 --> 00:00:12,240 Clara and I are both classical pianists and piano teachers from New York City. 4 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:17,600 This podcast is for anyone who plays the piano for fun, loves listening to the piano music, 5 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:22,880 or for someone who is currently pursuing a career in piano, works in the industry professionally, 6 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:27,960 or anyone who is simply curious about the world of piano music. 7 00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:34,360 In each episode, we interview a guest speaker who has been breaking exciting new ground in the music industry. 8 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:38,840 Before getting started, we want to thank our listeners for tuning in. 9 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:46,840 Please read our show and review on Apple Podcasts because every reading and review will help people find our show. 10 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:55,080 So our guest of today's episode is Dr. Marilyn Nanken, pianist, Steinway artist, musicologist, 11 00:00:55,080 --> 00:00:59,960 and director of piano studies at New York University, Steinhardt. 12 00:00:59,960 --> 00:01:07,880 My alma mater, actually. I attended there around 2007-2008 and I already had my undergraduate and 13 00:01:07,880 --> 00:01:15,960 master's degree in Florida and I was working as a college professor in Florida, but I just decided to 14 00:01:15,960 --> 00:01:21,800 pack up and put everything in my Honda Accord and then with the U-Haul trailer in the back and 15 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:27,720 decided to drive. It took me two days to get to New York City just because I couldn't speed up so much 16 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:33,960 with the U-Haul and then I got to New York in January, the coldest time of the month of the year 17 00:01:33,960 --> 00:01:39,880 and it was like really shocking, you know, coming from really relaxed Florida, sunshine Florida, 18 00:01:39,880 --> 00:01:46,600 and then getting into New York City in such a cold day, but the experiences, the classes I took, 19 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:53,400 and then the classes I took, and then the piano lessons I got, and then all the other training I 20 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:59,960 received from NYU was just so priceless and especially with the people I met and so I'm 21 00:01:59,960 --> 00:02:09,720 very, very excited to be able to interview Dr. Nanken after, gosh, 15-16 years. So I'm so excited 22 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:15,720 to be able to reconnect with her. Yeah, and you have also, you've known Dr. Nanken, right? 23 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:22,280 That's right. I met Dr. Nanken once in person about I think 2008, 2009, you know, it's just like you, 24 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:29,400 I actually, I had this fascination of studying at NYU for some reason when I was young, maybe I was 25 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:35,320 watching too much Friends, you know, so I just, I almost like wasn't like particularly thinking, 26 00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:39,880 oh, Juilliard or Mahanet School, obviously those are beautiful schools, but when I was in Kansas, 27 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:47,160 I really just, so I emailed Mr. Samuel Bernstein at the time and actually came to study with him, 28 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:54,120 2005 audition there and got in and they hired me as an adult faculty, but I was very young. I was 29 00:02:54,120 --> 00:03:00,520 like just a little over 20, 21 years old and my teacher in Kansas felt that if I came to New York 30 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:07,480 by myself alone at that time, I would get lost. So I went to UMass first and then I came back 31 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:14,360 to New York and I met up with Dr. Nanken to discuss further on the PhD program and so since then, 32 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:20,120 I've been following her journey and she's such an inspirational pianist and teacher, mentor, 33 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:26,120 you know, and a professor. So yeah, I'm very excited. Yeah, same here. Yeah. And then as we 34 00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:32,440 were learning about her for this episode, like, oh my gosh, she is, she is just an amazing woman. So 35 00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:38,360 so I can't wait to reconnect with her after over a decade and since I graduated from NYU, so 36 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:44,840 to end to hear her personal stories, right? Absolutely. Yeah. Well, she is here. So let's 37 00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:55,160 get the show started. You're listening to the piano part where we talk to the brightest minds 38 00:03:55,160 --> 00:04:03,560 in the industry about how they're bringing the piano into the 21st century. We are delighted to 39 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:09,400 introduce our guest of season two, episode 13, Dr. Marilyn Nanken, pianist, recording artist, 40 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:16,680 Steinway artist, musicologist, and educator. Dr. Nanken has regarded as quote, a determined 41 00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:22,600 protector of important music end quote by the New York Times and quote, one of the greatest 42 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:28,680 greatest interpreters of new music end quote by American record guide. She has performed at the 43 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:33,880 world's most prestigious concert venues, including Carnegie Hall, Lincoln Center, the Guggenheim 44 00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:41,320 Museum, and the Theater Booth du Nord in Paris and Chicago Symphony Center. The composers who have 45 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:49,000 written music for her include Michael Byron, Richard Carrick, Priya Chia, Jason Ecker, 46 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:56,360 and many others. Dr. Nanken is the author of the Spectral Piano, published in 2015, 47 00:04:56,360 --> 00:05:03,000 and Identity and Diversity in New Music, which was published in 2019. She has recorded more 48 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:08,680 than 30 discs and has published articles on various topics regarding 20th century music. 49 00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:15,320 Dr. Nanken is also an educator since 2006. She has been a distinguished faculty member 50 00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:21,080 and director of piano studies at New York University's Steinhardt School. So today we're 51 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:26,760 going to cover the topics including Dr. Nanken's early years as a student pianist, her career as a 52 00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:32,600 recording artist, educator, musicologist, and we also talk about her latest projects and so much 53 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:38,600 more. So Marilyn, we're so honored to have you today on our show and being able to interview you 54 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:43,640 during this, especially this special month, the Women's History Month, and personally I'm so happy 55 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:51,480 to reconnect with you after 15 years since I graduated from NYU. It's wonderful to see you 56 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:57,000 and to be speaking with you. Thank you so much for having me. Welcome to my world. Thank you. 57 00:05:57,000 --> 00:06:03,400 Thank you. So you know, because I graduated from NYU, so we have to talk about NYU. We have to start 58 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:11,480 with this COVID. So it must have been such a challenging two years for you. Well, I think 59 00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:18,280 so many people have suffered during the last few years and it's been, I think, very difficult for 60 00:06:18,280 --> 00:06:24,440 those of us involved in the performing arts for whom live performance is so important and I've 61 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:32,520 always, always been a performer who treasured really meeting audiences and playing for people 62 00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:39,720 and playing on particular pianos in particular spaces and that form of connection with the 63 00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:46,680 audience. So I personally have found it very difficult. I've never become a big fan of 64 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:55,320 listening online and remotely. I think that's been the whole art of live performance has taken on a 65 00:06:55,320 --> 00:07:01,080 different meaning over the last few years. And I also think as a teacher, all of us who teach 66 00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:08,200 students have really missed that connection with students and hearing people working with them and 67 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:14,040 being sort of bodies in real spaces. You know, thank goodness things are changing and opening up. 68 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:19,880 Actually at NYU, we have been in person for piano lessons for most of the pandemic. 69 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:26,760 Facilities were open and because it's just two people in a very large room, we were able with a 70 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:33,960 lot of health protocols to continue a little bit of in-person work. But I think the whole landscape 71 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:39,960 for performance and teaching has been really altered over the past two years and many of us 72 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:44,520 would like to see things go back the way they were. But of course we have learned a lot over the last 73 00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:50,680 two years and that's really transformed the way we see what we do. Yeah, it's so as much as we 74 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:59,960 reminisce about our past, but things happen and but sometimes these challenges bring us something 75 00:07:59,960 --> 00:08:05,560 of course beneficial to us too. So we can talk about more about that. And also I want to talk 76 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:11,240 about this new building where you are right now. Beautiful building of this piano department at NYU, 77 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:18,600 which was not the case during my time. So I'm actually really proud and I got to visit so many 78 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:25,560 times at this beautiful building that you're in. Just especially downstairs when you go, 79 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:34,920 the state of the art practice rooms. So tell us like when did that happen? Oh my, it's hard to say 80 00:08:34,920 --> 00:08:41,640 exactly when that happened. I would say probably maybe seven or six or seven years ago. But already 81 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:48,600 it's been a while, but we are here at Third Avenue, East 11th Street. It's a facility that 82 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:55,800 piano studies shares with the jazz program. So we really are very, it's very exclusive in terms of 83 00:08:55,800 --> 00:09:01,080 making sure that it's very limited in terms of who has access to the pianos. And as a result, 84 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:08,680 we can take really good care of them, really control the humidity and the exciting things 85 00:09:08,680 --> 00:09:14,840 like HVAC to make sure that the pianos are really cared for and protected and that the people who 86 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:21,720 are playing on them are really respecting the pianos and using them in a way that's beneficial 87 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:28,600 to the pianos, which so often at institutions are inadvertently abused or neglected. So it's a little, 88 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:34,840 it's a very special place here. I should add that opening next year at NYU is a huge new performance 89 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:42,040 facility at 181th Street. And that has been under construction for the last probably four years, 90 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:49,640 but that will have a full theater with fly space, practice rooms, I believe a swimming pool. 91 00:09:52,520 --> 00:10:00,520 Enormous building, which also have public space, be open to the public, but it's a huge project. 92 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:06,280 And that provides also for NYU students and for the community, what will probably be, you know, 93 00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:13,400 a very big center for culture and performance here in Greenwich Village. And I believe we're 94 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:22,360 purchasing something like 75 pianos for that space. Wow. Amazing. That is so incredible. 95 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:28,440 That kind of thing has the capacity really also to change the neighborhood, right, 96 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:34,600 to transform the cultural life of this area. So it'll be really exciting to see performances 97 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:38,920 beginning again. And that project has been delayed a little bit because of the pandemic. 98 00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:45,320 But if anyone is driving around the neighborhood of Houston and Mercer, you'll see this enormous 99 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:51,320 building that has gone up and it's pretty incredible. Wow. So but are you, the NYU is 100 00:10:51,320 --> 00:10:58,840 going to keeping the current? Yeah, we will be sharing that facility with the Tishville for the 101 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:06,200 Arts and of course the University of Health Access, but a lot of our musicians, our ensembles, orchestra 102 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:11,720 and musical theater, some of that will move into that bigger space, which also then will open up 103 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:18,520 other theaters, smaller spaces, like the Low Theatre on West Fortescue to pianists and things 104 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:24,440 like that. I hope. Wow, that is so exciting. And it's actually really fitting for that, 105 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:30,200 the characteristic of NYU, the state of the art and also the community-based 106 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:39,480 culture that I got to experience. I think NYU is always struggling with the neighborhood, 107 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:44,920 the historic neighborhood village and reaching out. There's always that bit of tension I think 108 00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:49,560 you have in a lot of places where you have a university and the sort of bone and gown, 109 00:11:49,560 --> 00:11:55,320 the idea of how can we serve the community better. But I think this facility has the potential for 110 00:11:55,320 --> 00:12:00,840 bringing the arts to a lot more, a lot more people. Oh, wonderful. It's so great to hear and it's so 111 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:08,120 great to catch up after so many years. As we were learning about you more through this, to prepare 112 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:14,600 this interview, I got to know so much about you and you're just an incredible artist. And the one 113 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:20,120 thing is you just never talk about yourself so much. So we really want to know about you. For 114 00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:27,160 our show, we usually start from the early days because we're very interested in you as a person, 115 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:34,600 as an artist, how you became who you are. So what was that childhood like? Did you grow up in musical 116 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:41,480 family or what was that first piano lesson like? Wow, I don't come from a family that's music, 117 00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:47,320 I think, musical in a professional or a serious sense. I started taking piano when I was five 118 00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:54,840 years old from just the woman around the corner from my grandparents. It was not a serious or 119 00:12:54,840 --> 00:13:02,840 disciplined kind of teaching. And I think that reflects the belief in my family. We also lived 120 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:08,680 in a small, in a village in a small town in the Midwest. I think it just reflected the belief that 121 00:13:08,680 --> 00:13:14,840 as part of your education or as part of being a well-rounded person, you would learn how to play 122 00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:22,840 an instrument. My dad played the accordion when he was a kid and had stories about playing accordion 123 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:31,480 for his mother's friends. Or my great uncle was a very enthusiastic amateur pianist who 124 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:40,040 taught neighborhood kids. My great uncle, I think played the clarinet when he was military. But 125 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:49,960 it was very much a playing music just for the fun of it and not to be serious. And so I enjoyed 126 00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:57,880 playing a lot, but I also was not, I didn't have to be asked to practice. I liked to play, 127 00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:04,040 but I was never in a situation where I had a lot of quality control or telling me this is the right 128 00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:11,000 way to practice or this would be the right way to hold your hand or something like that. So I think 129 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:20,200 it was a case of just sheer sort of love of playing that got me to a point where my teacher 130 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:24,040 would just sort of give me music like, oh, why don't you play this? Why don't you play this? I 131 00:14:24,040 --> 00:14:28,760 think we see this sometimes when we're teaching talented kids, oh, can you play this or give this 132 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:35,560 a try, check this out. And so I developed to a certain point where people say, oh, this is a 133 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:42,200 talent tile. Why don't you start doing competitions or why don't you learn pieces and give little 134 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:48,680 recitals or things like that. But it was always very, I think, in the spirit of just exploring 135 00:14:48,680 --> 00:14:54,840 whatever talent or love I had for the instrument without an idea of being professional in any way. 136 00:14:54,840 --> 00:15:02,440 And when I was about, I don't know, it must've been about 14, I had changed to a different teacher 137 00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:07,640 and she recorded one of my lessons sort of secretly, like I was doing a run through of 138 00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:13,640 something, I don't even know the piece, and she recorded it and sent it to Interlochen music camp. 139 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:18,920 I guess they were looking for students who might want to apply for a scholarship or maybe to play 140 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:25,080 for some master class or something. And so it turned out I was accepted to play in a master 141 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:33,160 class with Leon Fleischer. I didn't know who Leon Fleischer was and packing up the car, you know, 142 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:39,720 the middle of winter and driving up through Wisconsin up to Michigan. It's a totally different 143 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:46,120 world. And suddenly realizing there are all these serious musicians, you know, my age, 144 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:50,760 people who were really, you know, they were there going to boarding school, really practicing, 145 00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:59,240 really taking it seriously and looking at brochures for conservatories. And so for me that was very 146 00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:04,280 eye opening because I think I just sort of got there by the skin of my teeth, you know, really 147 00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:09,560 whatever, you know, I hate to use the word talent because it's very much a commodity that we deal 148 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:14,920 with in music, but you know, basically just on talent managed to get that far. And then I realized, 149 00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:22,440 wow, maybe if I get disciplined and I actually learn what I'm doing and maybe I could do this, 150 00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:29,080 maybe I could go to school for music. So I was at that point really, I would say 14 years old, 151 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:35,320 I think. And I went to Interlochen for one summer, to the summer camp and found that quite a culture 152 00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:41,560 shock. And I still do a little bit in that I was just suddenly surrounded by so many people who 153 00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:47,000 had been serious for such a long time, had been trained for really early age and, you know, really 154 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:57,080 to me, it seemed so knowledgeable and confident and refined. And I was really, you know, 155 00:16:57,080 --> 00:17:06,440 I was really, really awestruck by that. And I did not feel particularly comfortable in that environment. 156 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:07,560 Really? Oh my goodness. 157 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:15,400 It's strange because I think when you are, there's, I think many of us love playing and there's a point 158 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:19,960 when that enthusiasm and that passion becomes more about how hard are you willing to work 159 00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:25,240 and becomes more about comparing yourself to other people and concerns about preparing audition 160 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:32,680 material or concerns about competitions. And that sometimes, you know, it infringes a little bit 161 00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:42,280 on that early love we have for what we're doing. And I definitely sense that kind of conflict 162 00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:47,960 between doing something you really enjoy, like a hobby, something which is more like your life is 163 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:54,680 going to be, your career is going to rely on this. And are those things compatible or not? So I think 164 00:17:54,680 --> 00:18:03,960 I was very aware of that when I got serious about music. But sounds like it just comes from in the 165 00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:12,440 organic way that you reached your, let's say career and career path. I think it was very organic. 166 00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:18,680 It's a good word. But I also think, you know, when you, when I meet people who've had a more 167 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:27,400 disciplined teaching, upbringing as a musician, of course, I went down a lot of blind alleys. I 168 00:18:28,360 --> 00:18:37,000 overcome technical issues, you know, having a less disciplined path to where I am. I think I was 169 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:44,360 always very aware of things that perhaps were missing or things that I needed to take care of 170 00:18:44,360 --> 00:18:51,400 or something like that. So I think I always have a slight bit of envy for people who had a more 171 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:57,960 rigorous. Right. Really? Wow. I mean, I think especially at that age, right? You know, this is 172 00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:03,800 actually quite unique, right? Because like today, you know, all of your students, I'm sure a lot of 173 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:09,800 the students you meet that they start training, you know, such early on, right? Like in my generation, 174 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:14,920 the long, long age, you know, everybody started training when we were like two years old. So 175 00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:22,520 I think sometimes that organic, you know, vibe, it's actually missing. Right. So this is beautiful. 176 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:27,960 It's strange though, because also even I have such wonderful colleagues here at NYU, but of course, 177 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:32,120 they've come through very different educational systems as well. You have my colleague, Jeffrey 178 00:19:32,120 --> 00:19:37,480 Swann, you know, plays a complete Beethoven sonatas or, you know, my colleague and Terry 179 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:43,720 Antiparizzo, who comes from the real Georgian tradition and the training she received in 180 00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:52,600 Eastern Europe in that time. So you see people who come from very different pedagogical backgrounds. 181 00:19:52,600 --> 00:20:01,080 And so I often feel that I, yeah, it's not there. Well, I'd say it's one of many ways to become a 182 00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:06,200 pianist. You mentioned about technique, you know, around that time when you were a teenager, 183 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:14,520 you know, maybe you felt a little insecure. But to me, when I heard your recordings for the last 184 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:21,080 few days, I mean, I've been listening to your recordings pretty much every day. I love the 185 00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:28,760 tone production. I don't know how you do it, the crystal like, but it's not cold. It's just something 186 00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:35,400 warm about it. I don't know how to describe, but it's just so comforting as well. At the same time, 187 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:41,320 very specific technique that you have, how did you develop that? Is there, was there any 188 00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:48,040 method you encountered or teacher? You know, it's funny that you use that word crystal. And I 189 00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:55,960 share a tiny anecdote, but my very first mention ever in a newspaper for a review was when I was 190 00:20:55,960 --> 00:21:02,760 in school and I played as well as the Eastman and performed on some student recital, Luigi Della 191 00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:09,240 Piccola's Quaderno Musicale di Anlibra, which is a beautiful set of miniatures from 1955. And the 192 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:14,440 reviewer used the word crystalline to describe my playing. And I was so touched. And I thought, 193 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:20,120 that's such a wonderful word because it is kind of the sound I would hope to have. Something that's 194 00:21:20,120 --> 00:21:26,120 very clear and etched, but yet at the same time have a kind of shimmer to it. What was so 195 00:21:26,120 --> 00:21:30,680 disappointing was when I first came to New York, my first New York review, the reviewer for the 196 00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:36,840 New York Times also used the word crystalline. I was just crushed because to get two press quotes, 197 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:43,080 which is the same word is absolutely useless. And so it was a word that I, I really liked being 198 00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:47,080 applied to my playing. And yet when I first was starting out, I was just crushed that the word 199 00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:52,600 was used more than once because it would have been so useful to have more than one word to use for my 200 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:58,440 talk about the press quotes. But, but you know, it's funny because I tend not to like a lot of 201 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:06,440 piano playing and I'm not a pianist that loves to listen to recordings of piano music. I find a lot 202 00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:13,720 of piano playing quite ugly. And I find writing for the piano quite ugly. And I think that 203 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:22,520 having a beautiful tone is not that easy on our instrument. I find, I didn't like to go to a lot 204 00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:30,280 of piano concerts. My inspirations for how piano sounds maybe come from very few recordings, you 205 00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:37,400 know, very few recordings, very few instances, and maybe even more of an ideal sound that I want to 206 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:45,400 have more than a sound I've really heard. I know my, my teacher, my main teacher, David Burge, 207 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:51,720 who is a great mentor to me, he very much believed that the sound a person has comes from 208 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:57,880 either their body, their, their physicality, their anatomy, that a big, big man is going to have a 209 00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:05,560 very different sound than a smaller man or somebody with a certain kind of anatomy and approach to 210 00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:10,440 sitting at the piano. That's where that individual sound comes from. And he really believed that, 211 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:17,640 and I do too, that if a person is, is relaxed and playing naturally, they will have a natural sound 212 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:22,600 that is theirs. And no matter how much you want to sound like someone else, I mean, you, if you're 213 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:28,040 playing the piano in a natural way, you're going to sound like yourself. And the goal is not to 214 00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:36,120 develop someone else's sound, but to find, you know, your own sound as a musician. So I think 215 00:23:36,120 --> 00:23:45,720 for me personally, trying to find beauty and balance and a kind of softness, a soft, a soft 216 00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:51,000 feel in an instrument, which is inherently percussive is always a, a, always my goal, 217 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:57,000 and always to find a kind of beautiful resonance has been something I'm very interested in, in the 218 00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:03,800 piano, not so much a lyricism or a melodic, like not so much the singing quality, but the quality 219 00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:10,840 of, of resonating, vibrating, and the sense of that instrument really being alive and being able 220 00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:16,760 to somehow convey that to the audience. Do you receive these inspiration, let's say, 221 00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:22,600 tone production from different, listening to different instruments? I suppose there is 222 00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:26,520 something to that, different, maybe not so much instruments, but different kinds of music. I 223 00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:33,160 remember being very influenced by when I heard Skriyaben's poem of ecstasy with the orchestra 224 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:39,640 playing that, the tremendous kind of lush quality and, you know, feeling a little sorry that my 225 00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:45,720 instrument maybe doesn't have that, but trying to get that, or to hear something like the cello solo 226 00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:50,200 in Messiaen's quartet for the other time, a wonderful kind of vibrating quality that a 227 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:55,560 beautiful cello has, or an incredible singer, you know, somebody like, I don't know, 228 00:24:57,080 --> 00:25:02,600 something like this, or even, I love to listen to music of other cultures, listening to gamelan, 229 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:10,360 and wonderful kind of shimmering sound, gamelan, or listening to, I don't know, gagaku, Japanese 230 00:25:10,360 --> 00:25:15,240 gagaku, or something like this, or Korean pansori music, or listening to these different kinds of 231 00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:22,040 timbres, and realizing how there's that kind of richness, and trying to get that richness and 232 00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:28,200 variety out of the instrument that, you know, I happen to know how to play. I think that also 233 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:33,560 just comes back to this organic, you know, idea that we were talking about, it really, it seems 234 00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:40,680 to me, and also when I listen to your music, it's just so different sometimes, you know, you can 235 00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:49,080 feel the music comes from the heart, it's very genuine, it's very, you know, real, and I think 236 00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:58,120 that there's something really very different in this day and age we live in, right? So you are the, 237 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:05,800 I'd say, champion or queen of contemporary music. So when did you discover your love for 238 00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:14,760 the music of living composers? I suppose a very early example of it, which is a little strange, 239 00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:22,280 is my, I had this great uncle Milton, who, as I said, was very passionate amateur player, 240 00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:28,520 and he had hoped, so he was my grandfather's brother. So he was a young man in the 241 00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:37,000 40s, 30s, and 40s, and he had a real passion for the music that was new at that time, 242 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:45,800 he gave me some bar talk, early Elliott Carter, anything atonal, he was really, he was really 243 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:53,240 interested in that, and he would give these little concerts at his home, because he was not a 244 00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:58,920 professional musician, like Sunday afternoon, and he had some friends, he'd play a little solo music, 245 00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:04,520 and maybe some chamber music, and have a singer, and kind of these crazy concerts, 246 00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:12,040 Zemlinsky, and Schoenberg, and I do remember bar talk, and all kinds of stuff that to him, 247 00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:18,920 that was new to him when he was young. So this was in the 1970s and 80s, now when I was hearing it, 248 00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:25,720 and so those composers were no longer alive, but he had a real passion for this stuff that somehow 249 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:30,280 nobody really knew anything about. It was all new to everyone. Our family is not musical family, so 250 00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:37,880 here's my uncle, very enthusiastically churning away at some atonal music, and I was like our 251 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:44,120 crazy uncle Milton, but he was very enthusiastic about it, so I think early on I had a sense that 252 00:27:44,120 --> 00:27:48,600 there were these types of music that were out there that other people didn't know about, 253 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:54,600 that weren't part of the classical world, and they could be a lot of fun to listen to, sometimes 254 00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:58,520 they were strange, sometimes didn't make sense, especially when he played it, it was never 255 00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:03,320 note perfect, and I used to sometimes turn pages for these little musical performances in his living 256 00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:09,560 room, and it was so hard to follow what was going on. That's very difficult. Turn pages for contemporary music. 257 00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:15,480 All the players would be in a different bar, you don't know when to turn, but there was a very 258 00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:24,280 exciting, adventurous spirit to that, which I think when I went to conservatory, I definitely 259 00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:29,880 didn't get that impression on a lot of performances. Obviously, in a conservatory, a very competitive 260 00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:35,640 environment, nobody is going to be laughing when people are in different places in the score, and 261 00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:41,000 that sort of, even the sense of adventure and discovering something new is not always what a 262 00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:46,040 conservatory is about. Conservatory is about conserving a tradition and discovering older 263 00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:55,480 traditions and learning about them. And so I, for myself, discovered playing music of contemporary 264 00:28:55,480 --> 00:29:03,560 music at my own time when I was at Eastman, and there were friends of mine who were composers in 265 00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:11,000 my class, and they could not get anyone to play their music, because in that environment at that 266 00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:18,680 time, which is the late 1980s, the students are practicing for auditions, they're practicing for 267 00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:24,920 juries, they're practicing for lessons, and they did not have time or any motivation in general to 268 00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:30,360 pick up a piece of new music written by a friend of theirs to play for a concert. There just wasn't 269 00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:36,840 that sense that that was anything that was worth spending time on. They could not bring it to their 270 00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:41,880 lessons, their teachers wouldn't teach it to them, there wasn't this promise of what will playing 271 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:50,280 this piece get me. And so I began to play some of these pieces, and I found that I really enjoyed 272 00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:56,520 working with the scores. I thought it was exciting to look at, and I really liked working with my, 273 00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:02,280 I don't know how to say peers, my friends, working with people my own age to ask them questions 274 00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:07,560 about the score, and I liked the feedback, because what I was doing was very valuable to them. 275 00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:17,720 That was, I think, maybe more than anything, the sense of having a purpose, that my performance of 276 00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:22,360 these works was really important. It didn't really matter if I played Beethoven's first piano 277 00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:27,800 concerto, no one was waiting for me to play that piece, or I was in the studio at that time when I 278 00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:32,520 started, where all the students were playing the same pieces. They were assigned the students the 279 00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:36,760 same places, and I thought, well, what does it matter if I play this piece? I didn't understand, 280 00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:40,920 you know, these were obviously learning pieces, or pedagogical pieces, or pieces to learn because 281 00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:45,960 if you play this piece, you learn how to do certain things. But I found myself learning to do 282 00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:53,400 different things, and play and develop a technique by playing pieces written by people my own age. 283 00:30:53,400 --> 00:31:01,320 And I think maybe one of the most important moments was I had learned a piece, I think this is, 284 00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:07,800 and I think my recording of it helped this young composer win an international, get a prize. 285 00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:14,200 And I thought, wow, you know, it changed his life, for a young composer to get a spot on an 286 00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:20,200 international world music days, or I can't remember exactly now the prize, but it was a performance 287 00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:26,200 which really made a difference to that composer in terms of setting him on a career path. And 288 00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:33,080 yeah, and so then suddenly it was like, wow, a performance from somebody like myself could 289 00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:38,920 change someone's life. And I was never going to change Chopin's life, or Beethoven's life. 290 00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:45,000 Those are already composers with, it's a different kind of activity to play their music. And so I 291 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:52,440 suddenly realized that by taking whatever gifts I had and applying them towards, you know, 292 00:31:52,440 --> 00:32:01,400 living composers, it's like a whole different kind of ripple effect. So that's where that sense of 293 00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:03,720 wanting to do that came from. 294 00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:09,560 Wow, thank you. Yeah, I never thought of that way, but it's true, huh? Wow. Yeah. And then also, 295 00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:15,800 you get to learn the piece from the composer, like living composer. 296 00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:21,800 It's, when you ask, you know, about developing a technique, I have to say I've learned my, 297 00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:29,240 most of my technique on pieces by either composers who are still living or composers who used to be 298 00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:35,000 living. You know, one of the early pieces, big pieces I learned with David Burgess, for Sonata. 299 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:42,440 And I learned to do a lot of things on that piece. When I came to New York in the early 90s, 300 00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:47,320 I, with two composers, started a contemporary music ensemble. We just wanted to play music. 301 00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:52,280 We just wanted to play music of our friends and people we knew or composers we thought, 302 00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:57,000 you know, should be heard that nobody was playing. And I learned most of my technique, 303 00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:02,040 if you call it a technique, way of learning the piano, way of from playing things, whether it's 304 00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:07,560 Frenny Ho or Milton Babbitt or Schoenberg or people who are teaching in New York or young 305 00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:13,960 composers. I think that's most of how I learned to play was confronting new scores and also, 306 00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:19,720 like you just mentioned, working with composers. So saying, you know, I, how do I play this or how 307 00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:23,640 do you want this? I remember very clearly, I worked with a composer, Joshua Feinberg, who's 308 00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:30,040 my own age, who now teaches at Boston University. And then he's also, I think, in Berlin. But I 309 00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:34,680 remember playing some of his music, which I recorded and playing something. And he was like, 310 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:44,920 that's not mezzoforte. You know, having this sense of, or playing for composer Jonathan Harvey, 311 00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:48,200 having grace notes in his score. And you say, well, those grace notes are too fast. You know, 312 00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:55,400 I can't hear them. And, you know, they're having composers express really personal thoughts about, 313 00:33:55,400 --> 00:34:00,680 no, do this, do this, try this. I don't like that. The way you want to play that, that's not what I 314 00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:07,400 meant. Try to get what I'm after here with that kind of specificity. Really, I think, 315 00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:13,240 helped me learn different ways of approaching how to play the piano, how to interpret things. 316 00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:21,880 I think also just for the younger pianists, when we are, this reading is like changing my mind so 317 00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:28,120 much. I'm so inspired. I remember when I was first arrived in Kansas, when I went there when I was a 318 00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:33,400 teenager by myself and didn't speak language. And I had this friend who was a cellist, but then he 319 00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:40,200 decided to make this piece where, you know, we had to play a little and we had to speak in Chinese. 320 00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:45,400 And then my friend and I were just speaking whatever we were deciding, but it was a very 321 00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:51,000 contemporary piece, you know, for me, like growing up in China, I've never had experience with that. 322 00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:57,160 So I think that now looking back, it kind of even boosted my confidence a little, you know, because 323 00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:04,360 since language was not like, you know, entirely there yet and having this experience, I, yeah, 324 00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:09,320 this is a really, and then, you know, fast forward recently when I was working with, so we interviewed 325 00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:16,440 some of my good friend, my friend, Paulo, at the Manhattan School. And, you know, I remember we were 326 00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:23,560 playing this piece that he wrote not too long ago and that the really just the whole detailed 327 00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:29,480 oriented, you know, he, and it was really such a beautiful learning experience. So, wow. 328 00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:37,640 What you say about confidence, you know, when you have to do something for which there, there 329 00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:44,200 isn't a performance practice, there's no one saying this is how it's done or here are these recordings, 330 00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:51,000 you know, here's what you are after when you have to make those decisions. It's scary. But when you've 331 00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:57,400 made your decision, you know, you, you own it, you know, it's your version of that piece. And I think, 332 00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:05,320 you know, I was able to develop more of a sense of confidence from developing a way that I began 333 00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:12,360 to interpret things. We've been listening to your pieces, your recordings over the week and my, 334 00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:22,440 personally, my favorite is the Tristan Muraes, the Complete Piano Music. And actually, it just turned 335 00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:27,640 out that this album earned the record label company Divine Arts best-selling title. That's, 336 00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:35,960 that's amazing. But could you tell us more about that? Pieces are really, of course, he's, he's a 337 00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:43,160 French composer, so has this Debussy, like Ravel, like French school. But at the same time, there 338 00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:51,720 were at times that was just startling, like, totally, like, out of nowhere comes this harmony 339 00:36:51,720 --> 00:36:59,400 or something just scared me almost. So could you tell us more about the album? Maybe you got to 340 00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:04,680 know the composer. That's a, that's a great, great question. It's actually one of my favorite, yeah, 341 00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:09,160 hard to pick favorite, but probably one of my absolute best experiences making that. Although 342 00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:15,880 I have to say it's, it's the Complete Piano Music and Tristan Muraes. And Tristan, his birthday is 343 00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:23,720 today, actually. Happy birthday, Tristan. Oh, my goodness. One of the ironic things about playing 344 00:37:23,720 --> 00:37:28,760 living composers is he has written over the last few years, like four more piano pieces. So sadly, 345 00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:35,640 it is no longer the complete music of Tristan Muraes. It's a two CD set, but I have just recently 346 00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:42,920 gotten these new pieces from his publisher and look forward to learning them. He's also written 347 00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:49,640 since then a piano concerto as well. So there's a lot music, but Tristan Muraes is a fascinating 348 00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:57,400 composer. I did not know his music at all. And in about, must have been 1999, I was running this 349 00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:03,640 chamber music performance group, Ensemble 21 here in New York. And we were asked by the Guggenheim 350 00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:10,920 Museum to do a concert of contemporary French music. And we were grad students at the time, 351 00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:16,360 and myself and two composers that ran the group. And we were like, wow, you know, what's, what's 352 00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:21,400 going on in France? So I really didn't, that really wasn't the kind of music I knew much about. I was 353 00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:28,520 playing mostly American, very difficult American music, kind of associated with Milton Babbitt, 354 00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:34,520 or Eliot Carter, you know, very atonal, virtuosic music. And I was playing a lot of maybe British, 355 00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:41,320 what they call the new complexity, a really complicated, virtual, so atonal music, which I 356 00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:48,200 love. But that was what, that was sort of my thing when I was in grad school. So exploring my technique, 357 00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:55,000 and that's what people thought I was good at. And so we found this group of French composers, 358 00:38:56,040 --> 00:39:00,280 and it was called Spectralism, it was a movement, it kind of started in the late 1970s 359 00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:06,520 in France, but it was this kind of return to very romantic kind of music, return to almost the feel 360 00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:12,440 of Impressionism with a new focus on harmony, right? So after, after so many years of atonal 361 00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:19,800 music, or music that was more about sensing the complexity and virtuosity, music would just kind 362 00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:26,520 of return to Impressionism as a great reference, because there is the sense of sonority and color, 363 00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:36,360 and the joy in sound. And for this concert, we ensemble the music of Tristan Muraille, who's a 364 00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:44,440 a one of the main figures in this movement of Spectralism, and Gerard Grissé, Muraille's good 365 00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:50,280 friend, and they were sort of really associated with the beginnings of this kind of music. And 366 00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:54,680 when I started playing Muraille's music, we played, I played a solo piece, one solo piece of his, 367 00:39:55,480 --> 00:40:01,960 called La Mangere Gore, and one chamber piece for like five or six players, five players, 368 00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:08,600 I think, called the Le Barque Mystique, the Mysteries of Hope. And I was just blown away by the 369 00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:13,800 writing. It's like you, you put it under your hands, and you hear what comes out of the instrument, 370 00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:21,000 and I was just, I just fell in love with it. And I think it's that sense of recognition, like, wow, 371 00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:25,640 this is a person who knows how to write for my instrument. We have this feeling on different 372 00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:30,040 composers, like it just, everything seems to work, the resonance, the harmony, the beauty, the 373 00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:35,560 registers. I think all of us have played pieces where it's hard to get them to sound good. And 374 00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:42,520 this is like, wow, it just, he knew how to work the piano, to play the piano, to make the piano 375 00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:47,160 vibrate and resonate in a way that was so attractive. And I think we love this in 376 00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:52,360 romantic music, right? I think a lot of us love to play romantic repertoire because it uses the 377 00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:58,760 piano in such a beautiful way, with the use of the pedal, and really the kind of effects, and the 378 00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:04,440 joy in the sound, and the beauty of the sound, which is different than playing, let's say Bach, 379 00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:09,000 where it's a beauty of the music, but maybe it will work on other instruments. You can take a 380 00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:13,400 Bach piece and play it with orchestra, string quartet, or marimba, and we still hear the beauty 381 00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:18,680 of the music. But this was really music that was so specifically written for the piano. I was like, 382 00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:23,560 what else has this composer written? You know, how can I learn more about this? And one of my 383 00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:28,840 composer friends was like, well, you know, he's got a fair amount of piano music, but not that 384 00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:33,800 much. Maybe you should ask him for a piece, and then you could try to record his piano music. 385 00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:39,480 So it was really like a pie in the sky, kind of. Maybe he'll write something for you, and then there 386 00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:44,760 might be enough for a recording in the old days. Maybe there's enough for a compact disc. Maybe 387 00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:52,280 there's 65 minutes of music. That's true. And so I applied, I started to learn the rest of his pieces, 388 00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:58,680 and applied for a grant, was able to commission him to write a piece called Les Travaux Les Quir, 389 00:41:58,680 --> 00:42:04,040 which ended up being a massive piece, ended up being a 35-minute piece. And then for the recording, 390 00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:09,080 Christian, who I was not super friendly with at all, I hadn't known him at all, 391 00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:17,720 he found a piece he wrote when he was like 17 years old and auditioning for the Paris 392 00:42:17,720 --> 00:42:21,640 Conservatoire to work with Olivier Messiaen. And he's like, well, this has never been recorded, 393 00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:27,320 so maybe you'd like this too. So then it became this quite a large recording, including early 394 00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:32,600 pieces that had never been recorded or even published at that point. And then going up until 395 00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:38,600 a piece which had been just completed that year, really covering the scope of his career from about 396 00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:50,120 1967 until maybe 2000 or something. So his career up until that point. It was a great big project. 397 00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:56,040 I did work with him. He came to New York. He was at Columbia University teaching for a while. 398 00:42:57,640 --> 00:43:02,680 I still do not have a super close friendly relationship with him, but pretty much a 399 00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:10,280 relationship of interpreter and composer. And I found it incredible to coach with him because 400 00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:17,320 Murai is so specific about what he does. He's just so, and I respect that tremendously. We 401 00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:23,640 could look at scores of Beethoven and we look at those articulations and dynamic markings and 402 00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:28,680 rhythm. How do you do that? How do you do that? With a composer like Tristan, he's so specific 403 00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:34,200 about what he wants. And it's always been great. He plays piano okay, but for him to sit down and 404 00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:43,000 try to show you what he wants is very revealing. And I've certainly become more specific in how I 405 00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:47,960 play for working with a composer like that who's so demanding. And people who do not like to work 406 00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:56,440 with Tristan Murai don't like, as he can also just be so relentlessly specific. And many composers 407 00:43:56,440 --> 00:44:00,360 are like that. If they're alive and they're working with a performer, they want to get what they want 408 00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:08,760 to get. And it was a fantastic experience to have. I was just finishing grad school at the time. And 409 00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:16,360 it was, I suppose for me personally, it was also a career making recording in that it captured 410 00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:24,520 people's attention a certain way, that music. And it helped me define a bit more what kind of 411 00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:28,760 repertoire I want. Although I play lots of different kinds of repertoire, but I think 412 00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:39,480 factual music and composers influenced it, influenced by that music. I love to play that kind of repertoire. 413 00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:46,120 You mentioned so about grad school now and Columbia, you meant just I heard. So I hear that 414 00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:53,960 you got your PhD in musicology from Columbia University. And what was the reason, like you 415 00:44:53,960 --> 00:45:02,280 are already have this extensive work with as a solo pianist, a recording artist. I'm very curious 416 00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:09,000 to know what was the reason of pursuing musicology and specifically what area of musicology you got 417 00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:16,360 into? It's a little bit of a skeleton in my closet, but I am when I was in my undergraduate, 418 00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:23,720 I think I was saying I was not entirely comfortable in that world of creating pianists. 419 00:45:23,720 --> 00:45:30,200 Right. And I was not a good fit. And I left the piano program when I was an undergraduate halfway 420 00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:35,720 through my undergraduate degree. I have a degree in theory, but I don't have a degree in performance 421 00:45:35,720 --> 00:45:42,200 because I thought, well, I'm interested in so many composers. This is me thinking as a college 422 00:45:42,200 --> 00:45:51,320 student, I don't want to leave music. I want to be able to play and teach and work with people. So 423 00:45:51,320 --> 00:45:56,520 I thought maybe I'll go into theory because I'm not a composer. So I couldn't go into composition. 424 00:45:57,240 --> 00:46:03,320 It's very unusual. I was one of two theory majors at Eastman that year. And I did work with a 425 00:46:03,320 --> 00:46:09,400 performance teacher, but I thought, well, at least I'll be able to study music and teach about music, 426 00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:14,920 write about music and play music, have a career as a musician. And because I think at that time, 427 00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:19,640 in that environment, what I was thinking of doing as a performance artist was not considered like a 428 00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:24,360 legitimate career path. It is hard enough to be a musician. It is hard enough to provide work as a 429 00:46:24,360 --> 00:46:28,680 musician about saying, I'm going to play this kind of music that nobody knows, by composers no one's 430 00:46:28,680 --> 00:46:34,040 ever heard. And so the advice really was like, leave music or this is not the career for you. 431 00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:39,960 And I thought, well, maybe I'll become a theorist and I can make this work. And then when I went to 432 00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:45,560 Columbia theory and musicology were actually in the same program at that time. And so I went to, 433 00:46:45,560 --> 00:46:54,520 as a theorist to Columbia, the idea of being able to study music and write about music and teach, 434 00:46:54,520 --> 00:47:01,400 you know, teach, I guess, like teach ear training and teach analysis or something like this. And so 435 00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:08,360 my dissertation is actually more of an analytical dissertation. And I was interested in looking at 436 00:47:08,360 --> 00:47:15,240 psychology when we hear music that we don't know, what do we do? How do we understand it? 437 00:47:15,240 --> 00:47:20,840 And it was looking at really complicated, atonal music. And when we hear pieces that just 438 00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:25,960 don't resemble music to us, when we hear something like Sinakis or Ferney or something really, you 439 00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:31,480 know, really out there, what do we do? For people, and I was mostly interested in that question, for 440 00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:36,520 people that enjoy that experience, you know, what are they doing that people who don't like that, 441 00:47:36,520 --> 00:47:41,560 what's going on in some people's minds? How do some people come to understand what is going on 442 00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:46,120 with the piece when it's written in an entirely unfamiliar language? You know, I was sort of 443 00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:51,960 looking at what had been written, you know, in psychology, cognitive psychology, about maybe what 444 00:47:51,960 --> 00:47:56,600 are the processes people go through to understand music they've never heard before. There's actually 445 00:47:56,600 --> 00:48:02,200 been a lot written about tonal music. And when we hear a piece and we find, let's say we're listening 446 00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:08,280 to a Mozart sonata, and we find something surprising in it, you know, there's a funny moment in Haydn, 447 00:48:08,280 --> 00:48:12,440 and we say, what was that? You know, what was that great guest? Or what the, you know, in Beethoven, 448 00:48:12,440 --> 00:48:16,760 something comes back in the wrong key. Or, you know, there's a lot of studies about expectation 449 00:48:16,760 --> 00:48:22,920 and how we learn musical patterns and how a lot of music we love plays with that knowledge 450 00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:29,160 that we acquire. And so much of the interest of listening to tonal music is that there are a lot 451 00:48:29,160 --> 00:48:33,640 of models we understand, but what's interesting is how different composers writing in different 452 00:48:33,640 --> 00:48:39,880 ways, sheet sonatas or nocturnes or fugues or things like this. But I thought, well, what do 453 00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:45,560 people do in an environment where it's not tonal and we don't have familiar patterns and models? 454 00:48:45,560 --> 00:48:54,680 So that was my, that's where I was looking as a musician and as a potential teacher to talk about 455 00:48:54,680 --> 00:49:00,040 that. How do we come to works we don't know to different musical environments? And how do we learn 456 00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:07,160 to make sense of them? Or how do people learn, learn to understand new kinds of music written in 457 00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:08,920 different musical languages? 458 00:49:08,920 --> 00:49:16,280 Doesn't that give you very different perspective in terms of being as a performer, right? Because 459 00:49:16,280 --> 00:49:22,920 you're thinking music from very different perspective. I'm sure that really is enhancing 460 00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:25,720 and helping your performance. 461 00:49:25,720 --> 00:49:30,280 I think it was very tight, you know, I think it was very tight. My work is a performer because 462 00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:36,600 what do you do? How do you make a piece make sense when you look at it? What is the, what is the 463 00:49:36,600 --> 00:49:41,160 story of the piece? What are the, I mean, in many ways, it's not that different than what we do in 464 00:49:41,160 --> 00:49:46,840 a tonal piece, but what's the theme? You know, what is the idea? What is the emotion? What's the 465 00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:51,800 character? What's the texture? What's the quality of the sound? What are the interesting harmonies? 466 00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:56,760 What, when you hear a piece that is, that's going to make sense, what are those things that we need 467 00:49:56,760 --> 00:50:02,840 to hear that will help us make sense? One of the great things about my teacher, David Burge, was 468 00:50:02,840 --> 00:50:09,400 he had this wonderful ability to play just the most adventurous, strange, unfamiliar music. And 469 00:50:09,400 --> 00:50:15,240 somehow he always made, always made sense. He always could sense him guiding you, you know, 470 00:50:15,240 --> 00:50:21,560 listen to this, or this is important. This is what's beautiful. This is, this is the expressive 471 00:50:21,560 --> 00:50:27,240 quality of this music. He was able to really do that in such a wonderful way that even when you 472 00:50:27,240 --> 00:50:33,240 heard something very unusual, like Stalkhausen or whatever, it had, you sensed you knew, you were 473 00:50:33,240 --> 00:50:39,000 being guided through the piece. And I was sort of interested in, you know, what are those guide 474 00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:46,600 posts? What are the sign posts that help you make sense of newer and unfamiliar kinds of music? 475 00:50:46,600 --> 00:50:53,720 So the degree is, the musicology degree, I started as a theorist, but I've become a historical 476 00:50:53,720 --> 00:51:01,080 musicologist in my, since graduating my, as a performer, I've just always become interested, 477 00:51:01,080 --> 00:51:09,640 now less in analyzing pieces, but more in looking at the piano repertoire and finding these 478 00:51:09,640 --> 00:51:16,040 through lines and narratives that chase back from very contemporary composers back to the 479 00:51:16,040 --> 00:51:21,640 Romantic era, but beyond really looking at this full history where there isn't such a separation 480 00:51:21,640 --> 00:51:28,600 between what is old and what is new, but what are the bridges, the things that relate newer music 481 00:51:28,600 --> 00:51:30,600 to more traditional music. 482 00:51:30,600 --> 00:51:38,680 This concludes part one of the interview with Dr. Marilyn Nuncan. Tune in next time for part two, 483 00:51:38,680 --> 00:51:45,480 where we focus more on philosophical topics, advice for young artists, and more. If you liked 484 00:51:45,480 --> 00:51:51,320 this episode, don't forget to give us five stars and review on Apple podcasts.