Welcome back to the PianoPod, everyone. Today's
guest is a true visionary whose artistry has
captivated piano enthusiasts around the world,
Eleanor Bindman, pianist, arranger, recording
artist, and passionate advocate for bringing
the music of Johann Sebastian Bach to life in
ways that are both deeply meaningful and refreshingly
accessible. Described by Pianist Magazine as,
quote, breathtaking in its sheer precision and
vitality, end quote. Eleanor has reimagined Bach's
orchestral and instrumental works for solo and
duo piano, creating beautifully crafted transcriptions
and recording each one herself, so piano enthusiasts
of all levels can play the music, explore the
recordings, and find inspiration in her interpretations.
Her Brandenburg duets have been celebrated by
professional musicians for illuminating the intricate
counterpoint and inner voicing already present
in the original orchestral scores. Through the
lens of her piano transcriptions, these details
often emerge with greater clarity, offering fresh
insights even to those deeply familiar with the
works. Meanwhile, her solo piano transcriptions
of the Cello Suites, along with her most recent
project, Absolute, an album accompanied by a
set of transcriptions of the Lute Suites, have
opened up Bach's genius to adult learners, educators,
and pianists around the world. Oh, by the way,
if you are an intermediate pianist looking for
beautifully arranged versions of Bach's most
beloved tunes, or a teacher whose students struggle
to connect with the two -part or three -part
inventions, for example, I highly recommend checking
out Eleanor's Stepping Stones to Bach, which
features accessible arrangements of Bach's iconic
non -keyboard works. So, in this episode, we
explore the artistic choices behind arranging
Bach's orchestral works for piano solo and duet.
how Eleanor empowers intermediate and amateur
pianists with rich and playable repertoire, common
myths around interpreting Bach on the modern
piano, and the creative process behind her educational
YouTube projects, and more. But before we dive
in, just a quick note. If you have been enjoying
the past episodes and believe in the mission
of the Pianopod, please consider becoming a paid
subscriber on Substack at thepianopod .substack
.com. Your support, big or small, helps us keep
bringing you meaningful content that bridges
the classical music world with broader communities.
Now, let's welcome Eleanor Bindman to The Piano
Pod. Please enjoy the show. You are listening
to The Piano Pod, where we talk to the brightest
minds in the industry about how they are bringing
the piano into the future and thriving in a complex,
ever -evolving world. Welcome to The Piano Pod,
Eleanor. It is so wonderful to have you here.
You keep me. I'm so happy to be here and so look
forward to discussing so many interesting questions
that I know you're going to ask. I'm very excited.
Oh, me too. So one of our faithful listeners,
Opoku Boadu, he is actually also a big fan of
yours. Like he's been watching your YouTube channel
and then listening to your recordings. And he
actually is the one that who recommended that
I should reach out to you. And I'm so glad I
did. And then I didn't realize we are fellow
Brooklynites and we're pretty close, right? Yes,
that's amazing. And I'm so grateful that you
told me about Opoko. I actually thanked him.
He took one of my mindful memorization workshop
classes on Zoom. So we know each other that way.
And I'm glad that he was inspired by it. Yeah.
Oh, wow. Really? Yeah. He mentioned something
about the memorization. Maybe we can talk about
that later. Yes, maybe. So I've been listening
to your recordings and absolutely. Absolutely
loving your transcription of especially Bach's
Brandenburg Concertos. And that's transcribed
by you and for four hands and brilliantly performed
with Jenny Lin. Yes. Yeah. And also, you just
released an album called Absolute. Yes. I just
released my latest project, which is the fourth
set of... cycle of Bach's works not for piano
and in it I transcribed three sets of Bach's
works which were written either for lute or for
lute harpsichord. It's not really clear according
to the existing manuscripts but there can be
played on both and to date the recordings of
the complete cycle exist either on guitar or
on lute or on harpsichord. But this is the first
piano recording of the complete three sets. Wow.
And congratulations. They're so available on
all music streaming services. Yes, absolutely.
They were released by Orchid Classics on March
7th, a little less than a month ago. And they're
streaming everywhere and sold everywhere and
distributed worldwide and actually already doing
very well. I'm very happy. Yeah, we also made
the Apple Music playlist. We were the first track.
Well, one of the tracks was the first track on
Bach and the Baroque on Apple Music and also
women and classical music. So that was really
helpful in the initial kind of push. Oh, my goodness.
That's a huge milestone. Yeah. And really, I
love all the pieces that you transcribed, but
we'll talk more in detail with the album. The
album is called Absolute, right? Yeah. And then,
yeah, but before we begin, I usually ask this
very important question. So let's begin with
this. So if you were to capture the essence of
your artistry and mission and passion in just
a few sentences, how would you define who you
are as an artist today? I was thinking about
this and I guess something that I try to do lately
today, as opposed to, let's say, 10 years ago
when I started earnestly transcribing Bach. because
it kind of happened to me and it felt very important.
I think it's very important to try to get a fresh
perspective and a fresh look at pretty much everything
in life because it helps appreciate it and helps
us shed old beliefs, but especially as far as
Bach's music and the way it has been, in a way,
preserved. in the best sense of the word, but
also perhaps maybe in the sense of just being
put in a jar with some kind of a protective liquid
around it. So lately, I find that partially because
I've been doing it now for so long and so intensely,
it became important to me to focus on a new way
of looking at Bach's music. and that by virtue
of the fact that I transcribe for piano. And
it's really a different way of seeing his music
because as a musician who played several instruments
himself, he obviously approached whatever he
wrote with the particular instrument in mind,
yet his music is so universal in language and
so easily translatable. So I really feel that
in the past year or so, I've become a little
less hesitant and a little more, I don't want
to say fearless, but less inhibited in just trying
to go where I feel and, you know, doing ornaments
that do not agree with any particular conventions.
Or sometimes even if I seriously feel that the
score has something that may be the mistake,
I'm not scared to just... play it that way. So
I think we all need a new perspective on Bach
and a new perspective on his music as kind of
a tool for enjoyment and calmness and centering
and how it can feed the brain of, you know, amateurs
and children and just lovers of music alike.
But first, what sparked your connection with
Bach's music? I know you've played many other
composers. I've listened to Mussorgsky and Tchaikovsky
as well. Well, you know, I started studying music
as most of us when I was very young. And I went
to a school in the former Soviet Union in Riga,
Latvia, where one needed to pass a certain...
amount of tests every year in order to remain
in the school, because it was a school run by
the state. And there was, in the fall of every
year, there was an exam that we have, which was
called Bach etude. You know, it was Bach and
studies. So before anything else, we had to work
on our technique and to work on Bach. So there
was no way to avoid Bach as far as playing. And
I guess I got... positive feedback on my playing
of Bach. Even then, from my teacher, I actually
remember, I sneaked a look at her notebook when
she was away, my piano teacher, because it was
a school of many subjects. But my piano teacher
was in the true Soviet fashion, you know, very
phlegmatic, serious person. It wasn't like she
never told me, oh, this sounded great, but you
have to change this. It was always like, this
is wrong, this is wrong, this is wrong. But she
walked out of the room once and I guess it was
time for evaluations. And I, you know, I sneaked
a peek at her notebook and she wrote on my page,
she wrote, please bach well. That's all I remember.
So, you know, that was probably one of the small
pieces of positive feedback I even got from her,
you know, so explicitly. So maybe. Thinking back,
that gave me a confidence and more of an affinity
to play Bach because I felt I'm good at it. I
don't know really. I guess there is some kind
of an essential understanding that maybe came
through when I was younger, which comes through
if you have a connection with the music of any
composer. You mentioned that you want to approach
Bach's music in a new way. You want to have a
new approach to his music. So speaking of that
now, some listeners, especially, especially young
students, I have quite a few young students.
And then there are several that are really serious
about, you know, pursuing this piano and hoping
to maybe go to college, majoring piano or something.
But whenever we have to, we. Talk about Bach.
Oh, Bach is boring. I don't want to do Bach.
You know, I want to do bare minimum of Bach.
But maybe they're not truly introduced the music
of Bach in an engaging way. I'm trying, right?
But how do you respond to that? How do you reveal
the true beauty of his music? Well, I think just
before focusing on that. It is true that not
everyone may be great material for loving Bach.
Bach is a serious composer and we're all different.
And to me, Bach is kind of like jazz. I love
jazz, but I know a lot of people who just don't
kind of get it. There's something that's missing
in the connection with the brain or the body
or whatever processes the music that doesn't
give the person that, oh my God, this is great.
And with Bach, I think, frankly, especially as
a young student, the available material is wonderful,
of course. And a lot of people have asked me,
why would we need more Bach? That is not that
difficult when we have the inventions, we have
the minuets. And that's all true. But I don't
think those are his most inspired pieces. I think
the inventions are wonderful, but they are a
bit dry, right? So they may not appeal to everyone,
you know, at five, six, seven, eight. And the
minuets, in my opinion, the dances, again, they're
wonderful, but the minuets are more, you know,
they're more Mozart to me. When I hear, you know,
the G major minuet of Bach. It almost, it's not
Bach. It doesn't have the complexity. It almost
doesn't have the genius kind of shining through
it. So that's all obviously with a grain of salt.
It's wonderful work. But I think if you're talking
about young students, for example, who may not
be disposed to analysis because to analyze an
invention, I've had the experience as a teacher
of kids who can understand that this is a little
puzzle. And if you spend 20 minutes showing that
it's a little puzzle, I've had 10, 11 -year -olds
say, oh, wow, this is really cool. And once they
say that, they will play it with a completely
different mindset and a completely different
level of interest, just like the adult amateurs
will, because many adults don't really go through
this analysis of Bach. So one way is to analyze
if the person is ready. you know, abstractly
and mentally. And I also think that now that
I have produced, or I'm not the only one to,
but for example, the cello suite prelude from
the G major cello suite, which has been prescribed
by other people because it's such a big hit.
I think if they played something like that, because
frankly, it sounds a lot less like Bach that
we think about, but it's. you know, it's kind
of meditative, contemplative. It sounds like
pop music, right? In a sense. I think they would
enjoy playing something like that more than the
minuet, let's say. I just think it's less boring,
right? And again, forgive me for saying minuets
are boring, but I don't think they're the best
Bach pieces. Or to play even versions of music
that's great music, maybe not written for piano.
Like the Badinerie, for example, from the last,
sorry, from the second orchestral suite. You
know, everybody loves that. And since my transcription,
I've had piano teachers telling me, oh, I played
this for my piano students. They love it. They
want to play it. So, you know, I don't think
it's a sin to try to introduce some of Bach's
greatest hits, so to speak, into the repertoire.
Because, you know, the genius comes through there.
And then I think people will be more ready later
to play more serious works. Oh, now I understand.
Yeah. It's one point of view. Obviously, there
are kids like me who at the age of seven got
Bach. Right. I have that kind of a personality.
I'm an introverted person who likes serious things.
You know what I mean? Yeah. And that, I think,
is very important. And the other thing, just
briefly, I remember as a teenager listening to
the St. Matthew's Passion, hearing the first
chorus of St. Matthew's Passion. And this is
after more than 10 years of having played Bach
pieces. And, you know, that was my first, truly
my first emotional surrender to Bach because
I thought, wow, this is so great. So also more
exposure to non -piano works. Because Bach obviously
approached his piano works as tasks for his students.
You know, there's no way that he could have been
thinking of the inventions the same way that
he thought of the oratorios or the cantatas,
right? It's just, he was a businessman. This
is for the little kids. This is for the church
service. And the Brandenburgs are, you know,
for the court orchestra. And the partitas are
for my soul because he actually... himself published
the partitas. So it's nice, you know, once you
familiarize yourself with the output, not just
as a pianist, but not just as a piano student,
I think it will be a huge boost in the interest
in Bach. Yeah. If you think of Bach that way,
it totally makes sense. So what makes Bach music
so timeless and relevant even today? And how
do you see it resonating with contemporary musicians
and audiences? You know, I think that Bach, as
most people who are musical professionals will
tell you, he's really in the category of his
own. And, you know, there's almost like music
before Bach and music after Bach and all major
composers. Despite some historical, supposedly
there were some gray areas where Bach wasn't
played. I think most, you know, Beethoven had
the famous quote about Bach not being a brook
by an ocean. Schumann did some sketches of cello
suite transcriptions that I saw. So major composers,
you know, Chopin wrote the 24 Preludes. Major
composers were always aware of Bach. It's not
true that just Mendelssohn revived St. Matthew's
Passion and then everybody remembered Bach. Maybe
as far as the general public, it's true. But
the question why, what makes him so special,
I think is a wonderful question that I'll never
stop thinking about. And it has been brought
up to me a lot recently. And I think that one
of the answers is that... I mean, first of all,
it just seems like it's a source of comes from
a greater source than just one person. I think
a lot of artistic output artists are just filters
through some, you know, natural forces or ideas
and, of course, take their ideas from nature.
So he was definitely, to me, a filter of just
an incredible amount of some kind of information.
for lack of a better word. And his music, since
it's largely characterized by patterns and structure,
and structure is a Rosalind Turek kind of a quote
because I like her a lot. And she, I think, has
a great grasp on how to talk about Bach. His
music sounds great no matter what instrument
you play it on. And even no matter what tempo
you play it on, broadly speaking, what tempo
you play it at, because it is structured on very
basic patterns that are very clearly manipulated.
And there's something about that that I think
appeals to our brains because we react to symmetry
and structure and we somehow see it as something
akin to beauty. We're very satisfied with something
that makes sense as far as repetition or order.
And that is very much a part of his language
as far as the musical structure and the basics
of it, like I think no other composers. And also
there is complexity at the same time. There is
the layers. Yet there's simplicity and there
is this organic hole that makes sense on some
level. You know, and those of us who can analyze
things, we're like, oh, my God, how could he
even do this? And those of us who can't analyze,
but are receptive to it, they're like, wow, this
is amazing. It makes me feel, you know, centering.
It makes it just makes me come to myself. People
say all kinds of things like that. about Bach.
So I think that that is something that sets him
apart and that's something that will never be
in any way old or out of context because we are
wired the way we're wired as far as the perception
of music. And we also, we like to have this feeling
of calmness and kind of this attention to something.
that doesn't distract us, like maybe some romantic
music that, oh, this is sad, oh, I can relate
to it, you know. But this kind of music really
brings us to a part that understands, like, it's
a universal kind of a language. We briefly touched
upon your new album, Absolute. What was your
process in, you know, adapting these suites to
modern piano? So there are lute suites and also,
what is it, Prelude, Fugue, Allegro. Yes, Prelude,
Fugue, Allegro. I remember you just released
a video of Allegro on the piano on YouTube. Yes,
actually, this morning. Yes, I watched it. It's
fantastic. Yes. So, so rhythm driven. And so,
you know, like really, it sounds like a dance
suite from like one of the patitas or something
like that. And yeah, a lot of hemiola going on.
And I love those. Oh, same. And you played so
beautifully. So, but what would be the challenging
part where you transcribe? A piece from, you
know, originally written for Lautenberg. Is that
how you call this? Lautenberg, I think, was the
general name in Bach's time for these types of
instruments. That were a lute, you know, strings
with a keyboard. Yeah, interesting instrument.
Has that lute -like quality of tone, but the
instrument is keyboard instead of, you know.
Right. roughly speaking, like a harpsichord with
gut strings. So it sounded a little bit more
gentle. It was a different tone, like a warmer
tone, they say. Right, right, right. Did you
have to alter anything for this to apply to this
modern piano? Well, I think every time you go
from one instrument to another, there's considerations
and choices. In this particular case, actually,
I probably had the least amount of questions
and decisions to make because it was partially
intended for a keyboard, unlike my other, you
know, transcriptions. So mostly what I did there
was I tried to enhance the possibilities by,
for example, holding a bass note, right? Because
the Allegro that you heard this morning is a
part of... you know, a trifecta, three movement
work, which was very unusual for Bach. But in
the prelude, for example, of that set, the original
score just repeats an E flat at the downbeat
of every measure, let's say in the beginning.
Now, obviously, when one goes to the piano, one
needs to look at that and think, well, Bach repeated
the E flat every time because neither the lute
nor the lute harpsichord could actually hold
that note. But it's clearly a bass that is meant
to be held. So on the piano, to me, it made sense
to just play an octave and sustain it by alternating
the octave sounds, but to have one long bass,
because conceptually that's what it was. So I
needed to think about... What is it that I can
do on the piano without adding, you know, obviously
I don't want to change the piece. And that has
been one of my very important criterions because
I'm not a transcriber who adds anything of myself,
you know, beyond something very basic or beyond
ornaments going the second time around. my purpose
is not to be able to play this on my own. My
purpose had become to make this accessible to
people. So one of my criterions is I also, I
don't want this to be very difficult because
I don't want 3 % of the existing pianists to
be able to play it. I would like more than 50
% to be able to play it. So I'm always wary of
adding things that are very difficult. But in
the case of the suites, it would be prolonged
notes or just being able to hold notes, which
is the same thing, except in the case of the
prelude I mentioned, it would be just a bass
note that's held for three. But let's say in
the Allemande, for example, there are also not
many held notes and not many polyphonic sounding.
elements because the lute or the lute harpsichord
cannot hold the note for four beats and still
be heard but on the piano you can so i did enhance
the polyphony a little bit just because i've
played so many alabans on the piano i needed
to approach them as a pianist interesting that
but takes a lot of thought into it and experience
as a pianist and arranger too you've been arranging
or transcribing Bach's pieces and other pieces
for a long time. So what level, you mentioned
that these lute suites also are intended for
maybe 50 % of so -and -so called pianists, or
some of the pieces were hard, I think, in the
album. Well, that's, you know, depending on the
piece. I mentioned 50 % just as a, you know,
I pulled it out of the hat, just trying to make
a point that there are many intermediate pianists,
you know, early, late intermediate pianists who
could play this. It really depends on the movement.
You're absolutely right. Some movements are hard.
And one of the challenges for me, especially
as a recording artist, right, because recordings
get scrutinized and reviewed, et cetera. I kind
of need to show that I can also play the piano.
And a way to show that you can play the piano
on a very basic level is show that you can play
fast, right? So some of the movements in this
particular recording and also in the cello suites,
I play much faster than one could play on guitar
or a harpsichord because on the piano it's possible
and it sounds good and it makes people think
that, oh, she can play well. She doesn't just
transcribe. So even this Allegro, for example,
it is actually quite difficult just because it's
in E flat major. It does not pianistically make
a lot of sense for the right hand. But I had
to look. There is a recording of that particular
set has been transcribed by actually Busoni in
also a very simplistic manner like mine. and
by someone else. So there's actually a Richter
recording of that set. And I made sure that I
didn't play any slower than he did, just because
that's the academic standard. But some of the
movements, the prelude that I mentioned, the
fugue also from 998, is not difficult compared
to Bach's other fugues. And, you know, the Allemande,
many of the movements are not difficult. No more
difficult than, let's say, a French suite. Yeah,
yeah. So are the scores available, your transcription?
The scores are available. I usually finish the
scores after the recording is made because making
the recording helps me refine any new thoughts
that I have. And then, of course, I need to go
over and edit things and check for misprints.
Because I know the music, but then I have to
look at it with the eyes of someone who doesn't
know the music. And then I find the accidentals
missing, etc. So I just finished the score in
February and now it is ready. And actually, I
brought some with me to England when I just did
my record launch party. And I was very gratified
because they just... you know, flew, everybody
loved them. And they started asking me, and what
are you doing here? It was very nice. Oh, wow.
They're available from my website at the moment.
Oh, okay. Wonderful. It's so wonderful that most
of your transcriptions are synced with your recordings.
Like either people can have the reference to,
right? Yeah. Yes. I think I'm very fortunate
because record labels are interested in my work
because it's new. And for me, that's really the
only way to introduce my transcriptions because
otherwise people will not be interested if they
don't hear what they sound like, right? Anybody
could transcribe anything. It doesn't matter
that, you know, you don't know that it's good.
So I'm very lucky to be able to record and to
have people, you know, shazam and then write
to me and ask, oh, you know, this is great. You
can have this score. And also, I want to talk
about your Brandenburg concertos beforehand.
Oh, I love them so much. Yeah, thank you so much.
That is, to me, that will always be my most,
you know, my biggest accomplishment. The Brandenburg
concertos, no question. Sure. So, I mean, where
do I start? How long did it take for you to complete
all six? You know, it took nearly three years.
I started with one. And, you know, I always tell
the story, me and my piano partner at the time,
we tried Max Reger's score many times and it
was just not viable. So what he did wrong was,
it was kind of like he just put all of the high
notes in the primo part and all of the low notes
in the secondo part. So, in effect, the primo
part looks like this Amazon forest of notes,
which... completely obscures any counterpoint.
So they're just clusters of chords because you
have the violins playing, you have the oboes,
and sometimes you have the trumpets. They're
all scored differently. So it's impossible to
play up -tempo and really convey the different
lines converging, which is what he did for the
orchestra. And the secondo part, the bottom part,
very often just has octaves doubled because by
virtue of it being low, nothing else was happening
in there. So whoever's playing primo is completely
frazzled and frustrated. And whoever's playing
secondo is also frustrated for a different reason,
that they're barely doing anything. So I just
transcribed one of the concertos of 2014 because
I was presenting a series of Bach concerts and
I wanted to do Brandenburg too. And first I thought
that I could just change it a little bit, looking
at the score, but then I realized that I need
to redo it because you need to enter things into
software and it just wasn't viable to change.
So I did that one. It took me about three months.
It was not one of the complex ones. And then
after doing that and playing it at a concert,
then people were saying, well, are you going
to do all six? Are you going to do all six? And
I was like, oh my God, am I going to do all six?
It took me a few months to get my readiness level
to a point where I said, okay, I'm going to start
working on this. And then it was about two years.
It was an extremely difficult and involving process.
I'm still frankly amazed that I've done it because
everything subsequent was not nearly as difficult.
And these are written for advanced pianists?
Well, again, I don't know what the designation
would be because I just transcribed the music
the best way I could for forehand piano. Some
of the slow movements could be done by the intermediate
pianists. But the fast movements are just...
you know, the first, third movements, they are
very complex. And those are definitely not for,
you know, students on the lower levels. I didn't
change anything. You know, I really tried not
to eliminate anything except double notes and
maybe the viola parts, you know, because everything
there is so important. So a lot of them were
quite complex. And I made the counterpoint very
clear. And I gave a lot more to the bass, even
to we cross hands a lot because not the bass,
the secondo. I wanted the secondo to have melodic
material. So that is the most difficult set by
and large. Some concertos are more difficult
than others, but they're definitely also more
difficult than the orchestral suites. Quite,
quite more difficult. Yeah, I'm really, you know,
I really need to get some more people to play
them because. They're not easy. I would love
to play them. Speaking of orchestral suites,
that's a Bach orchestral suite. And I listened
to the album. There are many iconic pieces. in
the orchestra suites. And then that's also transcribed
for four hands. Now, what do you think about
a four -hand duo? Like, I just performed a four
-hand duet with someone. Oh, that's great. Yeah,
I really, I love the format. I like it. Maybe
we should try to get together in Brooklyn and
play through some of these. I would love that.
Oh, really? Let's do it. Yes. There's something
about four -hand duet. The intimacy that you
feel. And also, I don't know, it can be also
written for solo piano, but obviously with 20
fingers, you can do so much. But at the same
time, because it's two people, you have to sing
together. It's so challenging, but I love doing
it. Yeah, I agree. I love doing it. And I've
done it literally. And I wrote a piece about
this for someone in England. After doing the
Brandenburg duets. When I was studying, when
I started to study piano in Riga, if you look
at the most commonly used book in the former
Soviet Union, it was called The School of Nikolayev.
All the Russian kids, you know, Soviet Union
kids started learning from that book. Literally,
on I think the third page, there's already a
duet. Because, you know, there's a very simple
one note at a time line for the student. And
the teacher does chords. And I actually remember,
I think I remember when my teacher did that with
me very early on, because for the first time,
it sounded like I'm playing, you know, I'm making
music with someone. And it's a great tool. And
the Russians knew it and know it. I mean, the
Russian school, you know, which is very well,
the oldest kind of piano school, even though
it evolved from the Germans. They know how important
it is to foster musicianship and to foster synchronized
playing and sensitivity. At beginner's piano
lessons, that's always done. I don't think it's
always done here, not as much, but it is, you
know, also and it should be. But the feeling
of making music with somebody so close to you
for a pianist is no, you know, unlike any other.
Of course, we can play with violinists or with
cellos, but somebody sitting right next to you
on a bench. And you need to, first of all, you
need to be polite and navigate the piano together.
So there's the logistics of that, which is helpful.
Then you need to match your sound very often
or listen to the balance of the sound. So it's
really conducive to just becoming a much better
pianist. And you're right, as opposed to two
pianos, which is also a wonderful medium, it's
a different type of synchronization. Because
with two pianos, the synchronization, just playing
a chord at the same time is almost the biggest
issue. And it's almost a 50 -50 chance very often,
you know, because I recorded on two pianos as
well. So I think the duets is a very underrated
pedagogical tool. Although I understand that
for teachers, for logistical reasons, it's hard
to do duets. different students at the same time
because it's scheduling, et cetera. But I think
it's very important to start in the class with
the students to give them the opportunity of
duets. And as far as two pianos, just as an aside,
because somebody in England just asked me, a
very nice lady came who actually plays my Brandenburgs.
And she said, well, no, I have to ask you, my
partner and I tried this on two pianos and she
was apologetic. She was almost asking my permission
to play these on two pianos. And of course, needless
to say, I'm all for two piano renditions of the
Brandenburg duets. It's just that at the time
that I was making the transcription, I thought
that practically speaking, it's just a lot harder
to have access to two pianos in the same room
for any of us. And of course, if I wanted to
make a transcription for two pianos, it would
have been a hell of a lot easier to write than
to try to understand how will this work? How
will my left hand work with the right hand of
somebody else? That was the main difficulty in
the forehand transcription is the logistics.
But it's actually easier to play on two pianos
because you don't need to worry about sharing
that prized space in the middle of the piano.
Can we talk about your cello suite for solo piano
and then maybe stepping stones to Bach both?
Of course, of course. So cello suite, these pieces
are iconic. And as you mentioned, there are other
composers or arrangers who transcribed for solo
piano. And you graciously sent me both cello
suite and stepping stones to Bach. So thank you
so much. And then I showed it to one of my adult
students and he was so excited because he loved
the iconic, of course, the G major cello. Yeah.
So he said he's going to purchase the book and
we're going to try the first one. But yeah. So
what makes yours unique from others, other transcriptions?
What was your intention? What makes my cello
transcription unique is that I actually worked
on all 36 movements of all six suites. And I
approached them really with the least amount
of alteration because I wanted to preserve the
sound, the register, and I don't know, the universe,
if you will, of this very interesting one voice,
kind of one line focus. that we pianists often
don't have. So I really got my inspiration from
the Russian transcriber and pianist Alexander
Zoloti, who was a student of Liszt and who's
responsible for many, many virtuosic transcriptions,
including Bach in octaves. He did some really
crazy things that only he and Rachmaninoff and
others could play. But interestingly, I stumbled
upon... his transcriptions of four of the movements
from the cello suites, including the first suite
prelude. But then there were disparate, like
random movements from the rest of the suites,
which really, other than a held octave in some,
they really did not change anything. And they
were intended for students. So that gave me almost
the courage to do something like this, because
it seemed like for a pianist, this would be um,
just too easy. And, and especially for me, the
thought of recording that, um, I thought that
people would laugh at me while she's playing
one note at a time, you know, like what, you
know, it was, um, um, a lot of, there was a lot
of insecurity. And as a matter of fact, writing
the program, the booklet notes for the cello
suite album, I, I literally, I had like, I developed
a, you know, I had a skin like itching or something.
I was so nervous. because I felt I need to justify
doing this. So seeing Zloty do this, it kind
of gave me strength because, well, he did it.
He thought it was worthwhile, so I can do it
too. And just all 36 movements just give such
an incredible glimpse into a smaller, it's like
you're zooming into how Bach wrote because you're
only looking at one voice at a time. dividing
the music between two hands pianistically, which
I'm equipped to do because I'm a pianist, enables
me to show the hidden polyphony and the structure
better because it's now divided. So I can show
the first, let's say, the four notes of the main
pattern, and then I can show the hidden polyphony
notes that change or don't change in the other
hand. So it's visually... almost like a guide
to how Bach wrote his themes. So I think in that
sense, it's an invaluable resource for study.
And also, to be honest, when I was recording
the cello suites, I felt that I'm in better shape
than I've ever been. Because when you play these,
they almost have a better effect than like a
churny study. They really are a great exercise
for finger work. They're so different. Really?
Yeah. Oh, okay. So I should try them, not just
as a teaching tool. Well, as a warm -up tool.
You know, many of them, it's just, you know,
I'm sure that, you know, Bach is great for your
fingers as well as Czerny and definitely a lot
better than Han. But just, you know, it's very
digital. There are some very lyrical movements,
the Sarabands. But it's a really great workout
and it's wonderful music. There is no better.
finger exercise music, let's say, than the cello
suites on that level. And there are some wonderful
movements which are not that well known. For
example, some movements from the fifth and sixth
suites, which are more polyphonic, actually,
were written for a different cello with an extra
string. And the fifth suite has also been transcribed
for the lute and the lute harpsichord as well
by Bach himself. So there's one Sarabande, for
example, from the sixth suite, which just sounds
like a Brahms piece. It sounds like a Brahms
intermezzo. They really give a glimpse into the
different sides of Bach or the very famous Sarabande
from the C minor suite, from the third suite,
which is just very simple, very contemplative.
It's very different from what we pianists think
of, again, you know, of Bach. I think it's very,
very helpful also. And I'm giving these long
answers, but there's really so much benefit from
this. The idea of us as pianists, you know, as
advanced pianists, looking at a fugue or an invention
with two voices, we're automatically already
reconciling everything we need to do. But when
we look at something with just one voice, the
understanding is very different. So when we actually
focus on an allemande where there's only one
voice that we toss around between two hands,
when we then look at an allemande written for
the keyboard by Bach, we all of a sudden understand
it a lot better, you know, because we simultaneously
see each part a lot more clearer. Yeah, yeah,
yeah. Yeah, as I was sort of playing the allemande
from Cello Suite, the G major. Yes, I love that
one. yeah it's i i can really see it although
it's you know because it's cello suites it's
one line but i see the you know two voices separate
voices and then i was like oh wait a minute yeah
even within one voice you can do that huh i didn't
think of Bach that way i didn't think of Bach's
music so i don't know how to say 3d or three
-dimensional almost right wow Right. Exactly.
This is very interesting because looking at one
line in a way opens up the three dimensionality
within that one line. It's like it's a little
microcosm, which, you know, then when he has
an oratorio, he had 12 things going on in one.
Incredible. But you do understand that better.
And also that gave me, you know, after I'd done
the cello suites, I really feel they gave me
the greatest, you know, new understanding of
Bach on some level. And it also gave me a new
understanding of ornaments, because by looking
at, for example, some of the gigues in the cello
suite, there could be parts where there are some
eighth note triplets, but then he inserts a couple
of 16th notes, like a running up pattern or some
kind of pattern. And then I understood that these
little insertions that he makes are perfectly
legitimate and natural seeds for ornaments so
when I play the second time I make more of those
you know what I mean it gave me the confidence
in seeing it that way and using his own material
because his material became so much clearer and
the elements I learned that the elements can
be used in repeats which is I think a somewhat
unorthodox way of doing repeats because usually
think of people think of ornamentation and trills
and so on But after doing the cello suite, that
became a very important part of my development
as, you know, let's say an interpreter or embellisher
of Bach, if you will. Wow. Wow. I've never thought
of playing Bach that way. I haven't either until
I did that. Wow. And, you know, it's a shame
that transcriptions, in a sense, are not, you
know, validated by people. For example, somebody
in Germany asked me for a music of the Brandenburg
Duet for a duo piano competition for their students,
but they weren't accepted. The judges wouldn't
accept them because it's not an authentic work
for four hands as a transcription, you know,
and obviously, you know, they... They don't know
or didn't know. Not that my transcriptions are
so great, but, you know, it's just an unquestionable
authentic. It has to be authentic. And, you know,
they don't think to maybe question or to hear
a new transcription, let's say. But, you know,
even the cello suites as a pedagogical tool,
people have so many method books and so many
established routines of what they teach that.
You know, I don't think it will be easy for me
when I try and I'm planning on trying to introduce
these to teachers because it's just a matter
of, you know, trying to make them understand
how different this is and how worthwhile. But
they can't really understand until they look
or they're interested in how valuable it would
be for their students as opposed to so many other
things that the students play, you know, even
though they're so easy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well,
tell me more about it. So what are some of the
challenges you faced as an arranger, as a transcriber?
Like, why don't they respect your work? Well,
they don't, you know, I'm not famous. And, you
know, I just think it's routine. Don't you think
that a lot of us teachers, and I include myself
in that, you know, we sometimes just do things
our way and we have a... our lives get in the
way and we have so many other things to do that
to constantly think, Oh, what can I do? That's
new. Or what is out there? That's, you know,
things need to be approved. You know, you, not
everybody is a forward looking progressive piano
teacher, you know? Sure. Oh, but you know, I
guess it's. Me, I want to be progressive and
open -minded. Yes, and you are. And you have
a podcast and you're doing so many things. You're
that kind of person. That's wonderful. And I
feel lucky to be talking to you about this. But
I have certainly met a lot of piano teachers.
And I've toyed with the idea of doing presentations
at conferences. But it seems like... They're
all these, you know, it's almost like they're
gatekeepers for all of these things. And, you
know, to do a presentation at a conference, you
know, you have to become a member. It just seems
too much. But when I send out, for example, a
newsletter offering a discount or, you know,
PDFs for them to try it, very few people are
interested for now. But it's a matter of time.
You know, there's certainly with time. There's
a Russian edition of music, the main Russian,
almost the only one that has existed for over
a century called Jurgensen or Musica edition,
which unfortunately now, because of the political
situation, is not accessible to anybody in the
Western world. But they have published my cello
suites and they have published my Brandenburg
duets and orchestral suites. And they will likely
publish the lute suites. they're doing well in
Russia because the pedagogical value of that,
they're very serious about Bach and they appreciate,
you know, what I'm doing. And I'm very happy
that, you know, people in Russia in the time
of war right now, at least have some, some more
music to play. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think that's
why we're here, right? I really would like for
my listeners to check out Eleanor's wonderful
transcriptions and recordings of them and also
stepping stones to Bach. That's also their total
of 48 arrangements of Bach's non -keyboard music,
right? Choral. I would say 85 % or 90 % is not
keyboard music. I do have some excerpts from
the concertos. Okay. Just as. You know, the design
for the stepping stones was mostly to have literally
a one page piece. And I know it seems silly,
but there was a format that I wanted because
I wanted people to look at a piece and think
I can play this. And I think one of the first
seeds for those were actually the cello suites,
because. Or was it the other way around? I did
the stepping stones before the cello suites.
Yes. There were some movements that I thought
of maybe making an exercise book from box experts,
excerpts, because they're so good for the fingers
as we talked about. Not as something that's of
my authorship, but just to present excerpts so
that people can use them. And then on my website,
I do have a couple of exercise which people can
download for free. which are based on Bach's
E minor toccata or, you know, the Beethoven third
movement of the appassionata where everybody
struggles with, you know, the octaves, staggered
octaves. So I make a little exercise with that.
So I started with the stepping stones was just
finding an excerpt or something. And one of the
excerpts is just the very beginning of the D
minor concerto. Because I think just playing
that. The very beginning is just so empowering,
such a wonderful feeling. So that theme, it's
an octave, and it's not difficult to play if
you're a beginner. But I think the feeling of
playing that can bring such satisfaction. And
then maybe listening to the entire concerto,
and the student can appreciate listening to that
concerto, let's say, you know, an 8-, 9-, 10
-year -old, if they play the first theme. then
listening to the concerto will be a completely
different experience and level of interest. So
for me, that was the impetus behind the stepping
stones. And I think that was one of your questions.
It's almost the opposite sides of the coin, that
for a student, it's a way to kind of feel as
a part of participation in the larger output
of Bach and then listening in the larger output
of Bach. like a keyboard, you know, harpsichord
concerto or a flute sonata or an aria from a
cantata. And for the adult beginners who normally
already know and love this music, it's a way
to play something they love without struggling
with the polyphony and without, you know, struggling
with the self -doubt because, you know, adult...
pianists, amateurs, most of them, and a lot of
them are my students, and that's why my heart
always went out to them when I'm doing this.
They're just always so critical of themselves
because they're comparing themselves to Yuja
Wang or to Horowitz or which is understandable,
but the piano is as easy as it is in the beginning
to play the right note. The repertoire is vast
and the stars that the amateurs compare themselves
to and listen to, which of course they need to
listen, they're just light years away and, you
know, 30 years of practice away from the ability
of someone who is maybe 60 and picking up the
piano, that it just results in this, the negative
part of the experience and this lack of relaxation
is so detrimental. to the experience of somebody
like that that I really felt that it would be
great to create something that may be unusual
but will enable people you know for two minutes
to really enjoy playing one of their favorite
pieces and I've been very gratified with many
many emails that I got about that particular
set because you know I get emails from people
who have arthritis and say, you know, I just
picked up the piano. I can barely play anymore,
but thank you so much because I can play the
prelude from the cello suite or I can play the
little aria and they can enjoy themselves, you
know, and it's so important for us to do things
that we enjoy these days, especially. So during
COVID, for example, I had the stepping stones
and I sent out Every week I sent out a PDF to
my newsletter people of a new stepping stone
to kind of keep them interested in playing the
piano. And that was really very well received.
To be able to play something that you hear on,
you know, from the movie or from anywhere else,
like a familiar Bach piece, and just being able
to do that. in such a simple way but it's still
beautiful is i'm sure it's so meaningful for
especially for adult students and then for as
you said mentioned for kids that's a great way
to introduce to the the world of classical music
where you learn something simple on the piano
and then later on oh, I know this piece, right?
And, oh, this is something that such and such
introduced me to when I was a little kid. And,
oh, this is, oh, I didn't realize that was the,
you know, orchestral piece. And to go step further,
this is my piece. You know, there's a little
bit of that. And that goes a long way in internalizing
and appreciating music, which we so much need.
to instill in our kids, and it's so difficult.
Right. Yeah, it is. And then, you know, since
January of this year, the inquiries, because
now I'm based in Williamsburg, Brooklyn, where
I used to go to my students' homes to teach when
I was starting out. Now I'm getting older, so
I'm here. I want to open my... home as a piano
studio so i get a lot of inquiries from adults
but last three months has been crazy oh yeah
i don't know what ticked but um it's quiet quieting
down right now but till two weeks ago almost
every day i get emails i want to take lessons
but most of them as much as i want to you know
include them but it's difficult because Some
of them think that playing the piano is like
pressing the button. You know that idea? So the
reality when they come in, how difficult it is.
But I try to be, you know, very, very simple
and everything. So most of them cannot. But some
of them do continue. But it's just so curious
to see this Gen Z that are popping up in this
neighborhood. And they, I don't know, they're
trying to find something. in music i guess something
meaningful something beautiful something healing
yeah i don't know yeah yes and they do listen
to music a lot i mean i have teenagers well 20
and 18 at the moment of our um interview and
they're always you know they're always listening
they always have their headphones on so yeah
it could be a mix i mean my children my daughter
listens to a mix of music And my son, not as
much. But I know that because they were exposed
to classical music as children, they will always
be receptive to it. And I'm just going to segue
into a different topic, which is very important
to me, because at some point I would like to
spend more of my energy when I'm done with transcribing,
and probably I'm not going to be doing it forever.
I think there's a very simple tool that we need
to advocate as music educators, which is streaming.
I think that listening to classical music, as
you know, has been kind of put in some kind of
a box. It's hard to understand or it's elitist
or I don't know, they're dead white composers,
all kinds of things. And I think that. And I
did a survey about this with my newsletter and
on Twitter. The people who listen to classical
music as adults are people whose parents listen
to classical music in the home. There's just
no ifs, ands, or buts about that. I mean, by
and large. Obviously, there are people who as
a teenager maybe had a teacher who turned them
on to Bach or anybody else. It's all that. But
these days with streaming, it's so simple to
just... press a button, you know, not learn an
instrument. I'm talking about fostering future
audiences, you know, the people who will listen
to my CD, the people who will support whatever's
left of the classical or jazz or, you know, any
music without words, right? Which people think,
oh, they won't understand. And parents think
that their children won't understand it. Because
they don't understand it. But that is, as you
know, completely untrue. And, you know, we're
all receptive to music as children. And all that
needs to happen is it needs to be playing in
the background. You know, I don't think we need
to talk about it. It's helpful to discuss it.
But, you know, kids don't always want to discuss
what's going on. And, you know, their eyes will
glaze over. But just having it there, you know,
when they're having breakfast. when they're drawing,
I'm talking three, four, five year olds before
they can say, no, I don't want to hear that.
I think that will keep them open to listening
and to inquiry later. And I think people don't
understand that, you know, and going to concerts
is expensive and taking lessons is expensive.
It's not accessible to everyone, but streaming
is accessible to overwhelming majority of people.
And that's. I'm hoping that more people will
be doing that and actually have made some playlists
on Spotify and on Apple Music. But I haven't
had time to make more. They're called classical
for kids where, you know, I have different, you
know, I categorize them by pastimes. Like I have
Saturday morning music, which is mostly kind
of up. And I also include some jazz. And I started
lately including some jazz and some folk music
because. I think that comes under the general
idea of you don't need words to understand music.
But that's something that I feel very passionate
about and would like someday to try to promote
that in a more organized fashion. Yeah, only
if we have time. But, you know, it's interesting
because I also, through my podcast, I create
a playlist. Playlist of pieces that we... talked
about during the season uh through episodes but
i think creating playlists is a way to do way
to educate people and uh even when it's like
a little i don't know about this playlist but
i think you know these days with algorithm one
thing to another will lead into this piece and
that will lead into playlists i think it's very
important that every artist especially those
who are composers, even like with performing
artists, I think in order for them to promote
themselves, their work, I think playlist is a
way to do, don't you think? Yes. And that's,
I definitely, I'm guilty of inserting my own
tracks into my playlist. No, that's great. Yeah.
Yeah. But, you know, I think for kids specifically,
one can tailor things slightly. But you're right.
And it is the only way to really reach a wider
audience these days because very few people own
CDs anymore, CD players. And with all the retro
movements right now where there are LPs now and
even cassettes coming back, but it's really the
streaming that gets the exposure. Unfortunately,
it gets very little earnings to the artists.
We as artists know that we need to continue for
art's sake because making money is not easy.
I know, I know. Then you also have a very extensive
YouTube channel and I also watched you in a costume
with the whole makeup from the Baroque era. That
was so much fun to do. Yes. I was obsessed with
that for a week. Wow. Where do you usually do
the recording? Is that your home in Brooklyn?
Yes, yes. That's a beautiful studio. Thank you.
Yeah. I'm very lucky. I actually have recorded
my last four albums in my home. Really? Yes.
It started with the Cello Suites. I own a Bosendorfer
piano, which I just absolutely love. And the
cello register on it is so beautiful that I think
if I didn't have that piano, I wouldn't think
of recording the cello suites because it's just
the singing tone and the warmth and the expressivity
of that particular register. Wow. Yeah, it's
a beautiful piano. And then your channel is beautiful.
Did you, so you have a sort of like a sound system
or something, recording system? Well, no, I mean,
with my actual recordings, the albums, I had
somebody come to the home and we were just doing
it on the weekends in between, you know, takes
in between the planes passing by and children
playing and the birds, et cetera. And it worked
because it was quiet enough. But the videos that
I make on YouTube, I just mostly do with my iPad.
I mean, once in a while, depending. Now I have,
I think, about 250 videos or so, which is mind
boggling. But I started all of this to promote
the Brandenburg Duets. You know, I was told when
I started doing them and my goal was to make
a recording, was that I need to get on social
media in earnest and I need to start posting.
And I had this idea of a Monday morning Bach
post. So in 2017, I believe I started every Monday.
I posted on social media and then the same video
went on YouTube. And that has been my kind of
main tool in building up my social media following.
And I'm still doing it. Yeah, it's educational.
And you are actually quite natural at it on camera.
Well, I guess I became so. But I love making
those videos because they're a great way of practice,
you know, because you usually have to do quite
a few takes. And every time you play it again,
it gets better and better. So you practice up
the piece really well and you memorize it. The
PianoPod is now on Substack. If you're wondering,
Substack is an all -in -one platform where creators
like me can connect directly with you, share
exclusive content, and build a thriving community.
By subscribing, you'll get a behind the scenes
updates, early access to new episodes and special
perks designed just for our audience. Your Substack
subscription helps us create more of these meaningful
conversations and support initiatives that uplift
the classical music community. So join us on
Substack and be part of this journey. please
go to thepianopod .substack .com slash subscribe
or click the link in the description to subscribe
today. Thank you for your support, and I look
forward to sharing more joyous and meaningful
experiences with you on The Piano Pod. What do
you think about teaching polyphony? Maybe you
already covered, but what I sometimes... do is
uh especially even like the advanced ones because
as a pianist playing polyphony is not easy you
know it is not um and then because we sometimes
i hear you know prelude and fugue especially
fugue i hear students playing in such a way that
you just hear the harmony vertical vertically
right it's very hard to hear three or four different
voices independently, and that's very difficult
to do. Yes, I think it's ear training. I think,
again, the analysis is very important. It's very
important to look at not only, you know, in a
fugue it's difficult because there are many layers,
but to look at the theme itself, to try to understand
that as a unit. And then obviously, you know,
to show wherever it occurs and so on, which I
think most is not difficult. You know, what we
used to do, I used to do as a child studying,
I used to actually rewrite the fugue in three
different colors. I'm not saying that needs to
be a method, but it helped. And certainly playing
through each voice, it helps see the continuity
of it. But it's certainly not easy. And again,
I don't think everybody can do it justice. You
know, it's just one of those things. As you know,
as a teacher, your students come with different
natural abilities or different natural difficulties
or, you know, weak spots. And hearing polyphony
and playing polyphony is just not everyone can
do it equally well. So you can definitely develop
it by trying to go over each voice and analysis.
But beyond that, I'm not sure, you know, you
know, structure, understanding the structures
is most important, I think. Yeah. I do a lot
of color, use different colors to, first of all,
you know, divide that into different sections.
Like, you know, this is a theme and then this
is a. section the bridge section so episodes
so how you yeah yeah that sort of things yeah
it helps but it's not easy now another thing
would be articulation and pedal right so people
argue about it and then sometimes i hear students
play so dry that there are a lot of staccato
going on yeah so what is your take on those those
articulations and the pedal I think variety is
key. I like many ways of being able to play Bach.
And of course, as pianists, we often play the
same pieces after we put them aside, after an
interval. And I find that with me, very often,
I find myself playing something, especially after
putting it aside, in a very new, different way.
And with Bach, it is possible. So I agree that
certainly a specific way that people feel is
proper for Bach is maybe historically informed
and valid, and one needs to be educated and understand
where that comes from. Yet again, sometimes it's
just gimmicky. Glenn Gould certainly did a lot
of new and interesting things with his recordings,
but at the same time, they didn't always pay
off. necessarily, and then he would re -record
things, as we know. So I think it's important
to use the resources of the piano, which can
sound like a harpsichord with a certain touch,
and can sound like an organ with a different
touch, and can sound like a piano. And as a matter
of fact, in my last recording, The Absolute Lutz
Suites, I distinctly try to treat the first set
as a pianist, a second set as a more of a harpsichord
idea and touch, especially in the prelude, and
the last one more as an organ. And I actually
hold in the prelude, I hold some notes to create
the chords because the music lends itself to
that. So there is no one way to play Bach. I
certainly use pedal. Again, one needs to listen
and apply it in places where the harmony can
be blended. There are plenty of places like that.
So we need to use our judgment and certainly
stop saying that one cannot play Bach on the
piano. Bach used all the instruments that were
accessible to him during his lifetime, and I'm
sure he would have approved and would really
enjoy playing on the piano. You know, even on
a synthesizer like, you know, Wendy Carlos or
on a theremin like Rosalind Turek actually made
her Carnegie Hall debut playing Bach on the theremin,
which is an electronic instrument that you don't
even touch anything. It's completely energy based.
And, you know, it works. Yeah. And then do you
know a pianist, Chris O 'Reilly? Yes. Yeah, he
did the whole book one and book two of Well -Tempered
Clavier on virtual instrument. Yeah, that was
interesting, you know, connecting the keyboard
into his computer. And then so each, you know,
Well -Tempered Clavier, every single one had
a different temperament. That was interesting.
That was an interesting. I mean, there's, you
know, everybody does their own thing. And it's
wonderful that Bach is a source of so much inspiration.
You know, I think it's another thing that needs
to be reconsidered and departed from the historical.
period instrument ideas is the ornamentation
and the once treatment of repeats. I actually
just spoke to somebody who's writing a thesis
on the well -tempered clavier and performance
practices. And it was very interesting young
lady from Belfast in Ireland. When I was in London,
I met with her and she was questioning. this
stickler attitude toward ornaments and this whole
um historic instrument you know practice and
um i think it's it's important um one thought
that i had was was new for me was that um people
who perform in period instruments by and large
are not pianists right obviously there are keyboard
players who play in period orchestras and they're
trained in their harpsichords and they certainly
belong in those ensembles, yet most of the people
who thrive in the period instrument milieu are
usually string players, some wind players, who
in a way feel that they are a more active, full
-fledged, more lively member of an ensemble compared
to a normal orchestra, where there's a conductor
that comes tells you what to do. So I think for
string instruments, by and large, and oboes,
being a part of a period instrument ensemble
is a wonderful experience. For us pianists, it
really is, we're not a part of that. And we play
Bach a certain way that we're used to, that we're
taught. And since we mostly play on our own when
it comes to Bach, we have a lot more freedom.
to improvise or to do what Chris O 'Reilly did
or to do all kinds of interesting things with
Bach. And I think the treatments of repeats is
very important in that I think we need to depart
and be a little bit more freer with what we want
to do right now, as opposed to do things the
way they were done in 1750 or 1800. So I think
it's also a very creative endeavor for pianists
and a very liberating one. And to look into the
text and see what can I do and how can I repeat
things. And I find that listening to recordings,
for example, I listened to probably 15, 20 recordings
of the cello suites when I was doing the transcriptions.
And, you know, as an aside, that was a huge,
huge element of transcribing for me is the listening
to prepare because I need to do a lot of listening
to everything extant. for every one of those
pieces to educate myself to different interpretations.
And it's really, it was mind -boggling to me
how few cellists did anything when they played
the cello suite. You know, the iconic Pablo Casals,
Rastropovich, they barely embellished, they do
nothing, literally. They would repeat exactly
the same way, even Yo -Yo Ma. And I was thinking,
but why? They're repeating, they're playing.
six suites, they're not doing anything. And why
is that? You know, I think people are afraid
to ruffle feathers or they just don't think about
it. But repeats were such an important part for
a performer to showcase their creativity. Nobody
in Bach times would play a repeat exactly the
same way. And why should we just do a little
trill when there's so much material in the music?
that can be a point of departure. So, and I write
about that in my booklet notes, and I certainly
do a few unorthodox repeats in my lute suites,
you know, intentionally, because I want to show
people that nobody's going to fire them from
anything if they do that, you know, and it just
sounds a lot more fresh, especially for amateur
musicians who are not secure in what they should
do. You know, people who look at the score and...
think that this is what they need to play even
if the score is edited by someone that perhaps
wasn't even that educated you know but but this
idea of um trying to experiment with repeats
to me is very important yeah thank you yes that's
true and then in in that sense like as us pianists
we are more creative no because when we repeat
something whether that is Bach or excuse me,
not Clementi, a Scarlatti sonata, even with the
second repeat or handle, you know, suite. When
they repeat, they have to do something else.
Like we changed the ornaments. That's how I was
taught. So I guess we are, have more sort of
sense of freedom and improvisation in mind. Yes,
I think so. And we are not a part of an ensemble,
you know, at least. There are pieces for solo
cello and solo violin in the repertoire, but
not that many from that period. And, you know,
I once played with a violinist, a Bach sonata,
and, you know, he literally did not understand
that at some point I actually have the theme.
You know, he's like, you're playing too loud.
I'm like, I have the theme. You know, sometimes
orchestral players, they're not trained to really
try to listen to the whole. They know what their
part is. I mean, obviously, most are not that
way. But we pianists, you know, the part of package
of being part and parcel of being a pianist is
to consider many different voices and to consider
what to do and to have more choices. But I think
it's important for other instrumentalists to,
at least when repeating, you know, solo Baroque
music, to do a little bit more. And I'm still
not seeing it on recordings. That's a very interesting
point. Yeah. When you listen to recordings of,
you know, Andra Schiff or all of the contemporary,
you know, Bach specialists, Angela Hewitt, whom
I love, you know, I admire both of them greatly,
but I have heard them in concert playing, you
know, all of the partitas and, you know, they
do the series and it's just very... surprising
at how little is done with repeats maybe I don't
know it's a trend because Bach's era used to
be more the improvisation was encouraged yeah
and somehow that sort of disappeared that but
it's coming back the philosophy of improvisation
or introducing improvisation to music lessons
or piano lessons or even as a pianist. I think
it is slowly coming back. Yes. I think so. And
it would be nice to also cross over a little
bit in the actual performance of a repeat, even
if it's, you know, I think people are, they want
to ruffle feathers, you know, because they're
critics. But why is she doing that? You know,
Bach is sacred. A lot of people look at that
as, you know, some kind of a, you know, effigy,
some kind of a fossil that needs to be dusted
off periodically. They don't see how Bach looked
forward. Schoenberg called Bach the first 12
-tone composer. We all know that Bach is very
jazzy. And especially if we consider, by and
large, his music for other instruments, we see
how much he was looking forward. And yet we treat
him as somebody who liked to wear that wig. I
don't know how that happened. Well, there's a
lot of respect. There's a lot of respect. And
I'm saying that I know. I don't know either.
But I find, again, in the past 10 years, I have
grown a little bit less timid just because there's
a part of me that's perhaps, you know, a little
full of itself that says, you know, you worked
hard at this. You transcribed the Brandenburgs.
You did this and this. So if you want to do something
a little crazy, people are still going to say,
OK, well, yeah, we'll let her, you know, we'll
let that go because she, you know, she worked
hard and she obviously respects Bach. So I grew
a little bit less afraid, as I said, to do some
strange things, some jazzy things and repeats.
But I think it takes a long journey for somebody
to become a little bit less afraid and coming
from a different perspective, like I do, because
I'm certainly not a part of the establishment
of the classical music. I'm not a widely concert
-tasing pianist. I come to it from, I've come
around through this lens of transcription. So
it's a different perspective. Sure. Where did
you get this love for or bug for arrangements
or transcription? That's a very creative side
of music making, you know? Yeah, it was always
from wanting to play something that I love. My
first transcription was Night on Bold Mountain
by Ozark Street. Incredible, incredible transcription.
I love Mussorgsky. Thank you. And I was playing
pictures at an exhibition and I was like, I want
to play this. And I was still in college and
I created and that was before the Internet. And
then, you know, I wanted to play a Tchaikovsky
Waltz from Eugene Onegin, a piece that I associated
with my childhood. And I made that transcription.
You know, at some point I did take I was well
educated in high school and in college. I took
orchestration courses. I took figured, you know,
I took polyphony courses and I played four hands
piano. So I felt, you know, and I do have perfect
pitch, which helps in listening and analyzing
what you're about to transcribe. So, you know,
I felt like I was somehow qualified with my education
to do it and came out well. But always in the
Brandenburgs, I wanted to play. And again, there
are people who understand that whatever exists
was unplayable because there's no famous pianist
or duo that have been playing the Brandenburgs.
How is that possible? You know, how is it possible
that we've had for a hundred years the regular
transcription of the six Brandenburg concertos
and we don't hear them in concert? from Martha
Argerich, who constantly plays four hands, from
anybody except Anderson and Rowe, who played,
who themselves transcribed the third Brandenburg,
and that's the easiest one to transcribe because
it's the smaller strings -only orchestration.
How is it possible that we have this music and
nobody played it? Because it's unplayable. So,
you know, to make it, I wanted to play it so
badly. It's Bach, you know, so I ended up doing
it. Unfortunately, I felt qualified because I
have been playing four hands for over a decade
and I can do that. But I'm not a composer, for
example, although I'm trying to just do that
a little bit just for fun because I like the
process of creating a composition. But I'm not
somebody who wants to adorn what's written. Embellishments
and repeats are one thing. But I don't want to
change something like the Brandenburgs. It's
been a really fun conversation. Oh, yeah. Yeah.
So for folks who are listening today, please
check out Eleanor's wonderful, wonderful transcriptions
and recordings. You can go to her website at
eleanorbindman .com. And also you should check
out her wonderful YouTube channel as well. Also,
she has her page on Facebook and so on. Then
I will list all the links in the show notes.
Now, what's your next project? What's something
you're cooking up right now? Well, it's actually
something that has been mostly cooked already.
And again, it's a byproduct of the past 10 years.
During my transcriptions of all of these places,
actually all of these pieces, I also created
some what I call stray transcriptions of Bach
for piano solo. For example, I made some slow
Brandenburg movements that are playable for piano
solo, because most of the Brandenburgs are impossible
to do justice with just one piano. So I have
some slow movements, I have some more arias.
Like I included one track on the absolute on
this latest recording of an aria from St. John's
Passion, Betrachta meiner Seel, which originally
was scored including a lute. And it's a very
beautiful, but a more romantic sounding arrangement
because again, a lot of Bach transcribed on the
piano. sounds very romantic because of the harmonies.
And, you know, not written. He didn't write the
aria for piano. So on piano, it sounds like melody
with accompaniment. So I have about eight or
nine of these pieces already done. And my plan
is to do a few more, which are in the works,
and then to try to sell it to a record label.
wow so that and and that could be my last kind
of Bach compilation because uh people have been
asking me to do the violin uh suites but for
some reason I don't find myself interested in
that okay I don't know why yeah it's okay so
then then you have maybe you're gonna move on
to who knows handle I don't know I don't know
you know I don't know I find that this whole
boxing came about gradually and it unfolded gradually
and I didn't plan it certainly when I was done
with something sooner or later something else
came so I think as in any artistic process one
needs to maybe take a little break and just kind
of tune out and then the new steps will become
more visible in time. So I don't find that I
have a concrete plan other than this next set
of pieces. But I also, you know, I want to travel
more. I want to experience more different things
because my second child just moved out of the
house. So I find myself a lot freer as far as
my pastimes. Now, I think this would be a perfect.
question to ask you because you are such a trailblazer
so how do you think yeah classical music especially
Bach can remain relevant in today's world how
can we use as musicians and educators engage
with broader audiences with such a you know gem
of beautiful classical music well I think that
something that we already talked about which
is streaming and streaming at home is probably
the most practical thing to do. And, you know,
that's, I think maybe we need to try to devote
ourselves more to that question of creating playlist
listening, somehow engaging educators and just
kind of pushing the listening part as opposed
to the You know, music is good for the brain.
So take a music lesson. I think we just need
to promote listening and, you know, listening
is a quality that we're losing a lot anyway,
because we're so bombarded by different stimuli.
So I think the fact that Bach is so, it speaks
so closely to some part of us that pays attention.
I think it will probably, it will probably go
on. I think if it hasn't lost its relevance and
so many people are doing all kinds of manipulations
with it, I think it will be fine. I certainly
don't think going to church is going to help
the young generation to hear Bach. So any crossover,
anything, any mixed playlists will be useful.
But especially just listening, just getting used
to that language and not treating it as some
special occasion, elitist, you know, class related
thing. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Now, what would you
like your legacy to be as an artist educator?
You know, I like the idea of the reconsideration
of. who we are as musicians of different levels
and at different levels of recognition or fame.
And this going back to the amateurs, and certainly
for the past few years, I have been trying to
help adult amateurs feel more empowered, more
comfortable with being who they are. and being
an important part of the classical music business
and the classical music world and being the audiences.
The stars of the classical music world are wonderful
people who work extremely hard. who deserve all
the recognition they get. But there is a kind
of a corporate feel to everything we're doing.
And the famous people are such valuable real
estate that even publicists, everything is invested
into them. And they're being literally worked
to a level which they probably find difficult.
We don't really think about how difficult it
is to be Yuja Wang. And what is her life really
like? And, you know, how is the day -to -day
existence? So I think there's this gap between
people like that and then people who are not
famous. And then there are the amateurs. So I
think what I try to do by now is just to try
to at least bring some more literature, some
more works to the amateurs where they can feel
that they're good. And I'd be very happy if that
would happen because having taught so many people
and having sat there and had to assuage them
and say, it's okay, I know you made a mistake.
You don't need to explain to me why. Let's just
get on and enjoy the music. I think that's as
much as one person can do at the moment. But
I also would like to, as I know I'm saying for
the third time, I would like to do something
more concrete with the streaming and listening
at home idea. And maybe you and I can talk about
it later. Sure. Yeah, yeah. I would love to hear
that. Yeah. And you're doing such an amazing
job. It's engaging, educational. So that's exactly
what the channel needs, right? Yeah. Thank you
very much. I think we all do what we can. Sure.
Well, this has been such a fun, inspirational
conversation. But before I let you go, Eleanor,
we have one more thing to do. It's called the
rapid fire question. So this is the part of the
show where I get to ask fun questions to each
guest. Here's a little twist. As silly as these
questions may sound, your answers may reveal
who you truly are. So ready or not, let's do
it. Okay. All right. Number one, what is your
comfort food? Potatoes. Oh, yes. Do you like
mashed potato or a specific? I love roasted potatoes,
fried potatoes, French fries. How do you like
your coffee in the morning? I like a regular
drip brew coffee with a little bit of oat milk.
Oh, oat milk. Nice. Cats or dogs? Dogs. Sunrise
or sunset? Oof. I guess sunset just because I'm
usually awake for that more. Summer or winter?
Summer. Now, what skill have you always wanted
to learn but haven't had a chance to? Japanese
language. Oh, yes. I'll teach you. Oh, yeah?
Great. That's my first language. I'll teach you
Russian. Oh, yes. What is your word or words
to live by? Honesty. Honesty. What is the most
important quality you look for in other people?
At this point, I have to say it is a calm disposition.
I find that it's easier for me to be with people
who are calm. Name three people who inspire you,
living or dead. This is hard, I know. Well, I
have to say Bach, I'm sorry. Krishnamurti. Jiddu
Krishnamurti. a big influence in my inner life.
Gosh, there's so many. I have to say Rosalind
Turek because she's occupational. Wonderful artist.
Name one piece in your current playlist. Enter
Those Aguas by Paco de Lucia. I love flamenco.
Oh, okay. I need to check it out. Okay, great.
Now, last question. Fill in the blank. Music
is blank. Music is life. Great. Now that wraps
up this episode of The Pianobot. A heartfelt
thanks to you, Eleanor, for joining us today
and sharing your incredible stories and insights
and expertise with such... joyful, authentic
manner. And to our wonderful audience, you can
learn more about Eleanor and her work by visiting
her website at eleanorbeinman .com and start
listening to her wonderful albums on all streaming
services, especially the latest one. And of course,
thank you to our wonderful fans and listeners
for tuning in today. If you enjoyed today's episode,
please give it a thumbs up and then subscribe
to The Pianopod on YouTube. And don't forget
to share and review this episode on social media
and tag The Pianopod. I will see you for the
next episode of The Pianopod. Bye, everyone.
And thank you, Eleanor, once again. Thank you,
Yukimi. It was wonderful. Thank you.