Thank you. Welcome back to another episode of
the PianoPod, everyone. Today, I am beyond thrilled
to welcome two extraordinary guests, Jared Dunn,
an internationally acclaimed pianist, researcher,
and champion of Henrik Mikolaj Goretzki's piano
works, and Anna Goretzka, a renowned concert
pianist, professor, and the daughter of Goretzki
himself. Goretzki's music has held a special
place in my heart for over two decades. i first
encountered his symphony number three more than
twenty years ago while visiting a friend's home
she introduced me to this hauntingly beautiful
piece the moment i heard the music i was completely
struck i had never heard anything like it before
the raw emotion and simplicity the weight of
the soundscape it was a revelation And now, fast
forward to today, I have the privilege of introducing
you to a lesser -known but deeply moving side
of Goretzky's music, his piano works. In this
episode, we will explore the legacy of Henrik
McCoy Goretzky beyond Symphony No. 3, Anna's
personal memories of her father, his creative
process, his philosophy of music, and what he
was like as a person. jared's journey how moving
from north america to poland changed his artistry
and deepened his connection to goretzky's music
the creation of their new album goretzky's world
of piano featuring a world premiere recording
of an unpublished goretzky's piano works the
importance of intercultural collaboration in
discovering new music Henrik Goretzky is widely
known for his third symphony, but his piano works
remain largely undiscovered by the mainstream
audience. So today we are here to learn more
about his vast musical contributions and legacy.
But before we dive in, I want to take a moment
to share something important with you. Creating
this podcast, curating meaningful conversations,
and producing high quality content and growing
our reach takes an incredible amount of time
and resources. If you have been enjoying these
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I invite you to support this work by becoming
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.substack .com. Your support helps sustain and
grow this platform, making it possible for us
to continue highlighting diverse voices, exploring
creative journeys, and expanding the conversation
around classical and genre -crossing music. Even
a small contribution goes a long way. This episode
is truly a special one. So, please sit back,
immerse yourself in the world of Goretzky, and
join me in welcoming... Jared Dunn and Anna Goretzka
to the PianoPod. Please enjoy the show. You are
listening to the PianoPod, where we talk to the
brightest minds in the industry about how they
are bringing the piano into the future and thriving
in a complex, ever -evolving world. Welcome to
the PianoPod, Jared and Anna. It's such a pleasure
to have you on the show. today. Thank you. Thank
you very much. Thank you so much. Thank you for
being here. So where are you joining us from
today, Jared, first? I'm in Montreal at home.
And Anna? I'm in Katowice at home, yes. Oh, wow.
Beautiful. So far away. Far away, but you see,
we can get together like this. It's just so,
it always amazes me. But thank you for being
here. So, Jared, we've been talking about this
interview since last fall and now it's finally
happening. I'm so excited to have this conversation
with you both. And Anna, your father, Henrik
Goretzky's music has touched so many lives. And
then at the beginning of this episode, I shared
my personal connection to his, particularly Symphony
No. 3, a piece that left a profound impression
on me when I first heard it. Decades ago, actually.
And then when, yes, when Jared and I started
planning this episode and I discovered that you
would be joining us today as well. And then,
so, you know, I mean, when I heard that you are
the. Maestro Gretzky's daughter was like, oh,
my God. Yeah, really, it's true. So having the
chance to hear your personal story, insights
and experiences makes this conversation incredibly
special. So as our listeners tune in, by the
time this episode goes out, they are stepping
into something extraordinary, which is your collaboration.
New album, Gretzky's World of Piano is officially
out, right? Yep. Congratulations. Yes. Now, it
means so much that you chose the piano part to
share this news and talk about this album. So
I can't wait to hear all about it. So before
we dive into the details, give us a glimpse inside
this project. What inspired it? And what journey
do you hope to take listeners on through this
music? Jared, would you like to start first?
Sure. Same story as you, Yukimi. The first time
I heard the third symphony, I was overwhelmed.
And the first time I heard the piano concerto,
which was Anna's recording, and the sonata, which
I believe was also Anna's recording. I mean,
I knew about this music from a young age. I feel
really lucky to have known about it. And I wanted
people, when I planned this album, I wanted people
to have that same experience of hearing it if
it's for the first time. from pianists who have
really studied it carefully and know very much
what's at the heart of each score, because the
piano music is on the periphery of Goretzky's
music. We have the big symphonies, choral works
and chamber music. But the piano music is still
really beautiful and really worth giving attention
to. And actually, I think it was my first experience
hearing Goretzky was the concerto. The piano
concerto was first, which is not everybody's
experience. But. Therefore, when I met Anna in
person, I was kind of starstruck the first time
and I was really nervous. I have the same, starstruck
right now. Of course, yeah, because I know she'll
probably hate that I'm saying this. So I'm going
to skip over that point. But when we met, we
formed really quickly a connection through, I
think it was Chopin ballads and the Liszt Sonata
I was playing for her. Yeah, it was Liszt Sonata,
the first Liszt Sonata. And I remember thinking,
I remember the details of that first lesson,
which is more than 10 years ago now. And it made
such an impression on me. It was the same like
when I heard her recording. And this is what
distinguished it for me. And I hope the listeners
feel when they hear our album, it feels like
you're hearing a live concert. It does not feel
like a doctored recording. And the goal in playing
it is to make sure the impression of giving a
concert is maintained. That's what I love so
much about recordings. I don't like so much editing.
It's fine. Everybody at some point has to make
an album with edits, but I vastly prefer just
playing live and letting people hear the raw,
unedited music. So back to the goal of the album.
It grew out of my doctoral research, and then
I got a huge grant to do it thanks to the Canadian
Arts Council. So I approached Anna. And I thought,
gee, she's done this so many times, so much Goretzky,
why is she going to want to do another Goretzky
album? And to my surprise and delight, she agreed
almost before I could finish the sentence. Yes,
we can play together. It was amazing. So the
spirit of the cooperation has always been one
of musical friendship and admiration for what
music really is. So I consider myself very, very
lucky. Wonderful. Anna, would you like to add
anything? Yes, I remember our first lesson very
well. I must say I was really impressed by his
determination to change the whole life and move
to Poland. I was surprised because, you know,
I don't think here is something really worth
ruining everything else. Yeah, but I was extremely
happy because I felt during these lessons in
Warsaw it was a masterpiece. I felt that we can
do something together, something nice, and that
he's very open -minded, and he's very gifted,
and he would be a perfect student. So that happened,
and we had several nice years, and Jared's graduation
was something really big, and he played really
big repertoire, and really it was fun. Thank
you, Jared. Of course. Wow. So, you know, you
guys have this special bond as as what it started
as a teacher student relationship. And now you
guys collaborate together. And that's something
that I really want to dig into later in the episode.
But now let's keep this conversation going with
your father, Anna Henrik. Gretzky, Mr. Gretzky.
So I'd love for you both to introduce us to him.
Maybe, you know, for some listeners, they may
have not yet discovered his wonderful, amazing
music. So not just as a composer, but as an artist
with a unique musical voice. Anna, would you
like to start? Yes. Thank you. It's very difficult
for me because, you know, I think most people
start with third symphony and I think it's a
perfect way of getting closer to his music, of
course, because the piece is extremely important
and very touching and, you know, the basic thing,
I think. But I would recommend also Second Symphony.
For people who already love number three and
want to have something more, I really strongly
recommend Second Symphony, which for me is maybe
his absolutely best piece. So, yeah, we are talking
about piano music, and piano music is just a
small percentage of his whole work. He was fascinated
by the piano itself in his early years, and he
dreamed about being a pianist, so he practiced
a lot. There were, of course, some difficulties
because of the family situation and his mother
died and so on and so on and so on. We don't
have to talk a lot about this now. But when he
started his normal education, he started with
the piano. And that was his first love. So he
wrote a lot, a lot of virtuosic, big piano pieces
in his early years. And all these juveniles are,
of course, not published. But there is a big
pile of music. containing for example the four
big piano concerto very virtuosic one of course
it's far from his major style but it's extremely
important series of preludes different program
pieces yeah and this very big piano concerto
so maybe one day throughout his life i think
he considered the piano to be the closest instrument.
And he always composed by the piano. He had a
lot of favorite pianists, for example, Światosław
Richter or Mata Hrycz. Yeah, he was very fond
of them. He watched all Chopin piano competitions
in Warsaw. Every five years he was, yeah, three
weeks only with Chopin. He played the piano himself
quite well. So I remember him playing Chopin,
Mazurkas, Szymanowski, Mazurkas, a lot of Mozart,
a lot of Bach, really. So piano was quite, quite
important, very important. And I think in his
piano pieces, we can find the same tendencies,
let's say, let's say it like this, the same way
of shaping the form as in orchestral works. So
I think there is the same tendency to use very
distinct, sometimes even maybe extreme means
to express himself. Very similar way of building
the very expressive whole block of music, very
dense. full of tension and emotions so i think
it's quite close piano music to the rest thank
you for sharing jared would you like to add anything
i definitely agree with that tension and emotion
and this blocks of music when it comes to things
like piano sonata and toccata this is the first
repertoire that comes to my mind But I loved
researching all of this music for the purpose
of the book that I've written because these stories
now coming from Anna are things that I've heard
many times and I feel closer to the repertoire
because of it. And when I hear them told, I think
it really makes a difference to the interpreter
to know that information. Some composers, you
don't want to know too much about their personal
life. It helps you to just look at the music.
And someone like Gretzky, you need to know where
he was coming from. I think that's a different
case. You can play it, I think. I'm not an extremist.
You can play it if you don't know these things.
But it certainly helped me to learn from a direct
source who knew him and understood how he worked
and understood what he was aiming for in the
music. And I think it gets us closer to understanding
this music when we look at the enormous mass
that he wrote for orchestra, chamber music and
choirs. And then see that this smaller portion
of piano music is really very tightly related
to it. Really? Yeah. And you are also, yeah,
you mentioned that you're publishing the book
very soon. And then that probably complements
the album you just released, right? I think it's
kind of a funny coincidence that they both happened
in the same year. I haven't been. I haven't been
bored for the last few years. I haven't had a
lot of extra time on my hands. Writing a book
and planning and recording an album of this scope
and size has been a lot of work in a very short
time. But I'm lucky that they're coming out in
the same two -month period. I think the book
will be out middle of the summer, and the album
has just come out a few weeks ago. So it's a
nice pairing. Yeah, that's just really incredible,
and I would love to read it. Yeah. Since especially
you mentioned that knowing the person, knowing
the composer himself helps us understand his
music better. Because Anna also wrote a book,
but it's only it's in Polish. It's not been translated.
So my book decided I decided to dig into that
and translate the important conversation she
had with her father to explain his points of
view about things that. we can analyze it from
looking outside of the music but Anna really
takes you into the middle of it to the core of
what's there and learning Polish as well certainly
helped because I think Gretzky really deeply
identified with his Polish nationality with Catholicism
with a state of the birthplace being near Katowice
and being rooted in Silesia was a big part of
him wow so how well Do you understand Polish,
Jared, by now? I'm going to let Anna answer this.
I can say he speaks Polish really well. We can
communicate in Polish easily. So that's very
great. Because Polish is one of the most terrible
languages to learn. I hear that the Polish is
one of the most difficult languages. Yes, like
Chinese, something like Chinese. Congratulations,
Jared. It helps when I moved to Katowice, right?
I asked Anna, I remember when she invited me
to her class, I asked her, is there some in English?
Because I don't speak Polish, some form of English
studies. And there was an English program at
the time where everyone spoke English. But several
of the... professors i also wanted to work with
in chamber music in other forms of collaboration
primarily only spoke polish so for about two
of the five years there it was just smile and
nod and when you catch on to a couple of verbs
that mean listen carefully you play bad then
you understand what they're saying a little bit
um and But after a while, I think just being
there all the time and operating there in life
as well, buying groceries, going to libraries,
going to athletic stuff, getting sick and needing
a doctor. You can't always rely on there being
an English speaker there. So I just determined
I've got to learn this. Plus, my first teacher
or one of my first teachers in pre -college,
her name was also Anna, came from Warsaw and
immigrated to Canada during the communist time.
And I remember her using. Words in Polish sometimes,
usually swear words when I played, she didn't
like it. So I feel like this culture was always
there since my early teens, you know, and so
coming to Poland felt more like a homecoming
in some ways, because I'd always wondered what
it would be like to really live there. Which,
it makes a huge difference, not only in Gretzky,
but also Chopin, Szymanowski, and there's no,
it's so much easier to interpret them in Polish,
I find. I just feel that much more. Now, Anna,
what is it about, you know, Maestro Goretzky's
music that really resonates so profoundly to
listeners? Like whether it is his avant -garde
experimental chamber, you know, works to deeply
spiritual chorale compositions and or evocative
piano works, right? And his music demands our
full attention. Like I have to stop from whatever
I'm doing. in order for me to listen to just
by talking just gives me chills about his music
so yeah what is in your view gives his music
this undeniable impact wow another very difficult
question i know i'm known for it i'm famous for
it sorry i think there are several things about
it that we can define and a lot of things that
are absolutely beyond any statements or definitions.
So, yeah, I think it's a combination of several
important factors, like maybe from a psychological
point of view, it's something like... Yeah, maybe
it's about just feeling and understanding human
feelings, the deepest ones, the most intense,
and needs, human needs and hopes, maybe some
hopeless states too. And from the other artistic
side, maybe it's the ability to, how to say it,
to convey important, profound content into a
strong, very bold form. Maybe this combination,
yeah. Strong, true feelings, just true feelings.
True feelings and a perfect form. And if you
combine these two things, maybe there is a chance.
that would touch people somehow. So he was always
extremely careful while preparing the work. So
before composing, there was a long process of
collecting sources, of making sketches, of reading
books. Yeah, so sometimes it would last for years
even. When all that stuff was completed, then
he started the real work. So he was really careful
and he was working hard, really, to have all
these components well combined. I wouldn't like
to use the word measured, but they had to fit
one to another. Yeah, there is a mixture of importance,
of tradition, of courage, of speaking with one's
own voice. So, yeah, a mixture of different things.
When you talk about it, the word I get in my
mind is like, it's very intentional. Yes, it
is. With every, like the deepest intention. I
get that feeling when I play, especially the
concerto, it feels so... There's nothing like
an accident or something that just happened.
But there is a lot of intuition, too. So it's
absolutely not calculated. It's not invented.
It's not artificial. Absolutely not. So it's
like the music, I think it's true. Now, the more
I've played it and now we have recorded it, it
feels like a real reflection of the intuition
of the composer. And he identified very carefully
what he wanted to say and what the real message
was. And it worked. really tirelessly to figure
out exactly how to write it down. Yeah, so here
there was a deep conviction that one must know
their, how to say it, craft? Is there a word
like this? Craft, yeah? So the work you do, you
must know very well. Yes. Just do your job properly.
So you can't pretend. You can't just build an
empty facade. It can be maybe very attractive,
but it has no meaning and no background. So music
needs knowledge and music needs skills, really
deep skills and craft and strong constructions.
And if you have all this, and you understand
what's inside a human being so maybe maybe it
would work yeah that's amazing because it's so
i just thought of it as you were talking anna
that when i played the sonata even the opening
just these octaves Well, not really octaves,
but there's three octaves span for just these
unisons. You can feel the beginning, middle and
end of every single note, even though it goes
by really quickly. It's a simple structure. It's
just one line. But there is something about every
note that feels very real when it's happening,
even at a fast speed. And I remember when I finished
it, I texted you from the studio. My head is
ringing after recording this sonata. Like my
ears are ringing. And you said, yeah, brain also
is ringing after playing. I think it's because...
Yes, I experienced the same, yes. Really? Can
you tell me, elaborate on that ringing part?
Well, first of all, just the piano is vibrating
so much from the amount of notes written in a
very wide texture, highest soprano, lowest bass,
or very close to lowest, and constant chord clusters
that are written with... Forte times five. And
then crescendo to even louder. And I remember
once in the lesson I asked Ana, why did you write
this? And how are you supposed to play it? And
Ana, do you remember what you said? I don't remember.
Wishful thinking. Try to go from extremely loud,
like the loudest you're at, to even louder, to
just at the limit. But on a stage, I mean, I've
played the sonata live now probably 20, 30 times,
and now I recorded it. You feel this energy on
the stage. You feel like I need the piano to
be six feet longer, and then I can do this crescendo.
This is real. That's true. I'm also curious,
now that, Anna, you're here, what was it like,
Maestro Goretzky -like as a person and father?
If I'm not wrong, He taught you first music lesson,
no? No, he was never my teacher. Oh, really?
Okay. No, never ever. Yeah, but my first teacher
was a very famous Polish pianist and educator.
It was Professor Wanda Chmielowska. And for a
long time, she was head of piano department in
Katowice. And my mother studied with her. So
that was a very natural way when I was born and
when I grew up. When I was, let's say, four,
I think, she invited me and started lessons.
So it was just a private contact. We had private
lessons for several years. And later, yeah, but
my father was never my teacher. He was really
involved. in our lives mine and my brother's
life he was a present father happily happily
he was really uh he was interested in what we
were doing and he was also very demanding and
but i think it was uh that was a blessing because
you know he didn't accept wasting time on nonsense
uh we had to work hard of course we had to make
progress but there was there was nothing like
a sick ambition for example that you have to
win the competition or you have to win this I
never ever he was never pushing us towards a
success let's say so it was just about development
about learning about gaining experience so I
think it was very healthy really And he was happy
with all these passions, our passions, outside
of music. So I was very interested in literature,
and I wrote a lot, and he was very happy about
this. He read everything. So I think I had a
healthy childhood. Yeah, but he was never my
piano teacher. My mother was for a short time.
Yes, she's a pianist. Your family has such a
huge legacy of lineage of musicians, right? Yes,
my children are the third generation now. And
I can say I'm glad that he was so demanding and
wanting you to develop because... I can speak
now as someone who studied with Anna for five
years. She is the same. Every lesson you feel,
it must be better. It must be honestly better.
And there was also no sense of sick ambition
or pushing toward, at least in my case, toward
a million big competitions. And if you don't
win, the teacher will lose respect for you or
stop pushing you in the direction that you should
be going in. And I did a lot of competitions
when I was studying with Anna, but they were
all my idea. And she said, OK, if you want to
do it, let's do it. And I feel very, very lucky
that I had that five year period because she
also every lesson. I remember a lot of details
written on my scores and spoken, but none of
them were about anything but just being with
music, practicing music carefully, listening
carefully, being sensible in how you work on
music, not going to the practice room and just
playing through your repertoire and then stopping
a little bit over a couple of problem spots.
I remember a lesson in which I played a bunch
of Rachmaninoff preludes and she just said okay
day of honesty you need to practice much slower
that is it and then she just listened to me play
slowly and it was a really I'll never forget
this lesson because I had to demonstrate just
how many possible ways I could play slowly and
still be deeply connected to the root of Rachmaninoff
and there was no discussion about how to play
one of them faster or one of them louder or one
of them more so that a jury will like it at the
competition but it was just being in music and
i got the feeling and as you were talking that
this is something connected to also the way your
father heard music and experienced it because
there was never this outside pressure coming
into lessons it was always just about the music
Thank you. Thank you. I'm very happy to hear
this. But I must say that Jared was always, yeah,
to say that he was always well prepared, that's
nothing. He was really absolutely conscious of
everything he wanted to do. And he knew everything
about the composer, about the style, about really,
yes, yes. Thanks. So I remember these preludes.
Yeah, you played them really. Yeah, I remember
this recital at the end of the year. And this
was really, really great. Yeah. So I was happy
to have you as a student. This is the perfect
situation. Yeah. You see how many people can
say looking back after knowing a teacher for
that long. I've known Anna now since 2013. And
we remember we remember such details like it
must have something really worked. Yeah. And
also, you know, getting compliments from your
teacher. This is the place to do it. Otherwise,
during the lesson, you don't hear it. That is
something that is very rare, actually. I do not
remember a bunch of fake, nice words. But I remember
five years of solid work. And when it was good
at the very end, the result is good. Of course,
Anna would say. but there was in the lesson there
was none of this um oh so fantastically talented
great let's go to the next piece it was if it's
good let's work harder and i always it's funny
not a series of five years worth of compliments
but a series of five years worth of criticism
and input and suggestion and engagement with
the real art of playing um and yet i never felt
disrespected or put down by the It was just objectively,
this is what we do next. This is where you take
a Brahms concerto. This is what you do with a
Mozart concerto. Here's how you practice Rachmaninoff.
And I loved that element of it because I felt
Anna must be more on fire for this music, even
though she has a bunch of other students to deal
with and concerts. She goes to Asia every year
a couple of times and has a million other things
to do. And in my lesson, she's all there with
the music, too. and it was crazy there were moments
where she just said one simple thing like this
is the leading line of the whole piece and it
was like a little thread that went for a whole
concerto and my whole mind would be on fire for
the next hour um and i absolutely i think that
this is the right way actually of teaching because
it keeps you engaged so deeply in the music that's
how you know you're studying with a master As
his daughter, do you feel a sense of duty to
continue his legacy in some way? And do you see
your role in that sense? Yes, of course. I think
my job would be maybe bringing his music as close
to the listeners as possible. Of course, nowadays
it's not easy because... So -called new music,
even if it's written 60, 70 years ago or even
100 years ago, people are... Often people are
just against it. And if there is a famous name,
if there is a festival, if there is a special
occasion, okay, new music is tolerated. But yeah.
that's a sad truth but um if we don't have a
lot of possibilities to to play music like this
so every uh every occasion like this one jared
your your idea of recording this or or some some
strange different places we can play That's a
blessing, of course. And what can I do? I think
my greatest dream was to prepare his unpublished
pieces and to prepare them to be printed and
prepare them for the recording. So I had a moment
of hesitation because it was a question. Should
I do this or should I not do this? So when I
was preparing my book, I delved into these archives
and I found a lot of short pieces, completed,
complete short pieces and some fragments of music
that later created a cycle, for example, something
like that. So, of course, there was a question,
would he like it or would he not like it? But
I think there were some pieces so important,
of such an importance, like Mazurkas, for example.
A very important piece that was the first one
from a planned big cycle. Unfortunately, this
cycle was never completed. But we have this first
long piece that gives us some insight into his
intentions. And this is a perfect piece. Just
a complete piece of music. Nine minutes of beautiful
music. Simple, but very, very dense. Just notes,
but you are so tired. Yeah, it's exhausting.
I was less tired playing all of Chopin's mazurkas.
And you play one piece. I think I play it in
seven minutes. I might be faster, which might
be bad. I don't know. But maybe because I was
already thinking I'm going to be too tired. But
it's true. There are some moments in Gretzky's
piano music where you feel the space happen in
real time. Yes, yes. And this can be exhausting.
There is a piece for violin and piano called
Little Fantasia. And this little fantasy. I played
many, many times with the fantastic Polish violinist
Krzysztof Bonkowski. We played all Górecki's
music and all Lutosławski's music and Arvo Pert
and so on. So we had a very big repertoire. And
this little fantasia, it lasts for, I don't know,
13 minutes maybe. It starts with just... very
simple thing yeah just a few notes to play G
D D A just a series of fifths over and over and
he was so exhausted after playing this it was
so and me too me too I was absolutely yeah so
tired So it's about intensity and about this
concentration. So everything is visible. Everything
is so open and so clear and so obvious. Time
stops. The time just stops sometimes. And there
is nothing like a normal second or two seconds.
Nothing like this. Yeah, so this is very special.
I have to say, Anna seems to be, because of the
opportunity to record this, she seems to be doing
this job of continuing Goreski's legacy and his
music. And the piano album she edited very beautifully.
It's clear exactly what you should do and exactly
what you should not do. The timings of things
are clear. And through my research for my book,
she provided the right types of data. Like when
I was... choosing should I publish this story
or that story about the composer. She has a really
good view of what actually links to the music
and what the practicer, what the artist really
needs to know. And in that respect, you couldn't
ask for a better expert. Thank you. I'm happy
I could have you. We're always talking a lot
at home about music, about performances, about
musicians. So, yeah, he was a very talkative
person. During interviews, sometimes he said
just three, four words, but at home it was a
constant flow of ideas, emotions. So we talked
a lot about music and we were listening together
to many performances. So I think he managed to
pass on me his ideas about what he expected from
musicians. So what he expected from performers
of his music. Sometimes it was not very polite,
but it was very clear. It was very clear. And
yeah, now I will try to be serious. It was very
clear in terms of the structure, about tempi,
agogic, about the quality of sound. about just
the touch needed to play it in a proper way.
So, yes, I hope I could touch some of his...
Of course, I'm not sure I'm able to pass it forward
or just to make it. I'm trying, but of course
it's very difficult. But I think I can imagine.
what he was expecting from the performer. Now,
can you take us through this new album? So what's
in the album? So what pieces you're playing?
I believe that, Jared, you're playing solo works.
I did all the solo. And then also, so what are
the pieces that you guys are playing together?
Is it four hands or two pianos? We played two
pianos. Two pianos, okay. So we start with the
toccata for two pianos, which is an early work,
and then five pieces for two pianos, which is
a serialist work, which is very interesting because
when we sat down to rehearse it, we were on a
jury of a competition and in the evenings we
were talking over dinner about how to play it.
And we were writing out all of the interesting
rhythmic things we would have to use to count
this piece because it's not really possible.
at least we both agreed it probably would not
be possible without having a something metronome
clicking in our ears through the performance
because some of the ways that Goretzky divides
the rhythms you would have to be able to be in
the other pianist's brain to make sure that you're
going to land at the right time so this piece
initially it looks very forbidding and very very
thorny to understand and to even begin to practice
it I had the impression the first couple of times
of playing it through that I have worked for
three, four, five, six days. And then I take
one day to practice what I have to do for my
next recital. And on the day I come back to these
five pieces, I have forgotten everything I was
doing and how to do it all. It was like a black
magic of some kind. I really didn't know what
was going on. It was pretty much the same. There
is nothing like a conventional form or melody
that could lead us to the piece. So there's nothing
that helps. It's sort of a puzzle. Yeah. Sort
of a puzzle and sort of very difficult math.
We count all the time and we must remember all
these different places we need to touch in a
very short time. So the structure is extremely
demanding and it's so easy to forget everything
that you learned the day before. And there were
places almost impossible to... to play using
the score. So I had to memorize, for example,
all this solo ending. It's almost impossible
to play it properly in tempo, looking into the
score. And the text is abstract, so nothing that
would help. But it was fun. It was fun to record
it. Yeah, it was fun, really. Because when I
practiced by myself, of course, yeah. very demanding
very interesting but that was not everything
and when we started playing together all these
pieces became you know just rich just interesting
just it was like sort of a painting yeah with
colors with different points no obvious shapes
no flowers or dogs but just colorful points and
spots yeah so it gave me totally new ears as
well i i feel like my ears are not the same after
doing that because you know it's kind of like
the basic piano teaching thing you go back to
learning your first polyrhythm like two against
three or four against six in mozart or chopin
and you think as a kid gosh nothing could be
more difficult than this nothing as a kid and
then you look at this score and you think i have
to subdivide a series of polyrhythms that are
in not only my part and each of the dynamic points
on the highest level of the keyboard the highest
range is pianissimo and then within the span
of thirty second notes you're playing fortissimo
in the lowest bass and then you have to move
by a random interval to piano and then to mezzo
piano at another interval and then wait a second
while the next piano does something and then
come back and put a chord there that has nothing
to do with what you previously played yeah almost
every single note has its own dynamic yeah so
exactly and within a chord there are multiple
dynamics per voice and multiple articulations
so there were points in the studio where i thought
i think My eyes might be crossing and then going
the other way just to check like the coordination
of this thing. And my ear is still clicking mercilessly
this 1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 4,
or 5 or 7 or 9 or 652. Like you never really
know until you sit down with the other pianist
and work all the details out of rhythm exactly
how much it will demand of you. But it's funny
that. Other than playing the sonata, which is
long and very dense and aggressive in places,
my strongest memory in the studio is of that
piece. Not necessarily every single detail, but
I remember several points where we both thought,
I need a break because I think I'm losing my
mind here. Yes, I think the biggest difference
is in time. Because this is like sonata, for
example, or anything else we played or you played.
the normal musical time just flows in a normal
way. And here the time is so strictly defined,
it's so strict that there is nothing like normal
breathing or normal phrasing or just transition
from one phrase to another. There is nothing
like this. Sometimes, sometimes you feel like
part of a machine. Yes. But you must be this
machine, but still you must create some, you
know, some space, some colors, some. Yes. This
is very difficult. I liked when we started. It
was really fun. In the end, it's one of my most
memorable experiences to date because the first
time we rehearsed in Katowice. I said, look,
I don't know how we're going to do this. I don't
know how I'm going to do this. And when Anna
said it's like a modern painting, like something
very much pointillistic or just a splash of color
here and then some other dots, it was this whole
painting metaphor. And it reminded me of being
somewhere like Santo de Pompidou in Paris, like
where all the modern art installations are. Because.
When we started playing it, you listen differently
when it's just going to be one splash of color
for that moment, and that's it. And you look
differently when you observe art this way as
well, when you know that there's not going to
be a continuous narrative like the Nanufara of
Monet. You can watch forever, and it's all lilies.
But a painting like this, or a sound painting
like this, is a totally different approach to
sound. And Goretzky did it very, very rarely,
right? He didn't... The only other thing was
the three... and some other serialist stuff for
orchestra, but it wasn't his main expression.
This was in the 60s. That was a very strong wave
of pieces like this. Scontri and so on, first
symphony. The first version of Songs of Joy of
Rhythm was also very strict in terms of time.
So segments that you should play, let's say 17
seconds. And the second version of Songs of Geoffrey
is much more free. It's just, let's say, normal.
That's interesting. The paradox in this music,
when the time is more tightly controlled down
to the second, you feel it afterward when you
listen. You can sit back and for some reason,
when I listen to our recording of this. Listening
to Pienczuk photos of five pieces, I felt so
relaxed. Yes, me too. Listening to the salata.
The effect is different, totally different from
the process. Exactly, yeah. Extremely complicated
and difficult and demanding. And when you just
listen to these pieces, you see all these colors
and shapes and shapes. Yeah, that's good. I had
the feeling also, I have to give credit here
to our sound engineer, Anne -Marie Silvesque.
She's from Quebec. She's amazing, and she knew
exactly what to do with this. And right down
to the last moments with the files before the
album went to print, she was checking with me,
and I don't know if she was checking with you,
Anna, that the space between each piece, which
is also calculated, is exactly the number of
seconds that Goretzky wrote. Yes, yes. So that
in the end, the total time, three or two or five.
In between, yeah. Yeah, and these are also calculated,
and it gives this incredible effect when you
listen to it that you can feel your brain being
pulled in different directions to listen to different
things, and you feel the gymnastics of your listening.
When you're doing a jump up and then way down
and landing on the ground, it's something. I
don't know. I wish I could have spoken with Gretzky
about exactly what he was doing, like what he
was thinking when he wrote it, because some of
it, as you practice, defies normal interpretation,
let's say. It's not, you can't read it like with
a narration in mind. It's not a Schubert sonata.
Or even something like Messiaen, like the Vision
de la Menne or the Vers Regardes. These have
images associated even with highly dense and
sometimes awkward textures. But this piece is
totally outside of all of that. And that made
it the most interesting for me because I had
never done anything like that. This was very
interesting, too, playing alongside someone that
I studied with for so long. And I understand
what she expects of me and how she wants my development
to go. And then when we worked together, I started
to understand also what she expects of herself.
That was very interesting because Anna plays
on an incredibly high level. And then as a student,
you look at your teacher and go, wow, OK, that's
amazing. But then when you're working with them,
you realize, well, it's actually much higher
than I ever would have realized as a student.
So it's much higher that they're expecting of
themselves, that they're going for it. Because
as a student, your mind is more on yourself and
what you need to do. And your teachers there,
their role is to point out all the insufficiencies
and to get you past all of that stuff. So, of
course, on a higher level. But the transformation
of it into actually collaborating and playing
together, not as, you know, Anna's playing the
orchestra part of Brahms concerto for me, which
is really very nice. I'm lucky, but this was
fun. And now, oh, wait, it's an equal partnership.
We are playing together and we have to find a
way to. complement what each other is doing and
make the music work. I didn't notice it fully
until we were rehearsing together exactly how
hard Anna pushes herself and how far she goes
to work so the music comes out exactly the way
that it's supposed to. That's a hard task. Yeah,
I'd say our rehearsals were quite fruitful. I
think so. Because they were not very long and
they were not very exhausting, but they were...
I think we understood each other well. And we
had a common view of things we want to do. So
that was fun. Thank you. Interesting, too, that
I would have thought going into this that I had
to form an opinion that was exactly the same
as yours, because it's your father's music. You
know him best compared to any performer, certainly
compared to me. But when we would talk about
it, I was in shock sometimes at how. open -minded
you're also about the um of course i'm not saying
we should play it in the wrong style or in some
you know really radically different way but i
felt welcome to share this is my impression of
what's going on here can we consider it and we
would practice different ways until we found
mutually a solution to a musical problem particularly
in the piano and that was a really really transformative
process for me Yes, I think your approach and
your insight was very precious because we can
never say that the pianist is just a tool and
the composer is programming us somehow as a computer,
let's say. Of course, my father, he expected
right tempi, right dynamic. Everything should
be like he intended. put it down. But what was
very funny when he was conducting this, let's
say his third symphony himself, this performance
is 10 minutes longer than the standard. And then
the time indicated in the score. So he himself
felt that the music is something that lives.
It's nothing done once for always. like a teacher
for example so I think of course we need to follow
all instructions we can't play lento allegro
allegro lento but we need to be ourselves somehow
because we'll create some fake situation if we
are not and I think Goretzky's music particularly
I think about this in the sonata and in this
uh also preludes there are fermatas sometimes
at the end of the movement that will allow you
to spend a lot of time thinking between one movement
and the next and some performers for example
for sonata take only 12 minutes or 12 minutes
30 seconds i know i took something like 13 minutes
or 14 almost 14 i think but i liked to let the
fermatas live for a while and it doesn't mean
the temp it's interesting it doesn't mean the
tempo of the allegro is slower because the pianist
struggles to play fast There are moments where
you want to let the sound just sit there and
register in real time with your listener and
give them the sensation that what they just heard,
they now have time to absorb it. So much depends
on the acoustics, the amount of people. So all
these things change. So we can't just stick to
one pattern and just reproduce it. Well, thank
you for sharing all these. So just to be clear,
the first piece was Toccata, two pianos, and
then followed by your solo pieces? No, the next
piece is called Five Pieces for Two Pianos. Okay.
So there are two pieces on the album in total,
Toccata and Five Pieces for Two Pianos. These
are the two piano pieces. And then all the solo
after that. And what are all the solo pieces?
There are four preludes, opus one, the sonata,
opus six, a bird's nest, opus nine, lullaby,
moment musical, sundry pieces for piano, various
works, which, yeah. Because I listened to Anna's
album. You play that piece too. And it's this
interesting set that has a funny little waltz
at the end that was like a sarcastic gift for
the family friend. A piano professor who was
practicing and her neighbors were complaining
it's too much noise. So Goretzky wrote this really
brash waltz. It's a very quiet, brooding opening.
And then suddenly it sounds like a child slamming
the piano with the fist. It's really interesting.
And he wrote it as a gift to this professor.
Yeah. So in total on the album, there's, I think
it's 33 or 34 tracks in total and it's nine pieces.
Wonderful. As, as this episode is going out,
your album is available to purchase and also
music stream services as well. Yes, that's right.
It's released by the label Atma Classic. And
it's available on all streaming services. And
yes, it's available on the Atma website for purchase.
Okay. So I'll make sure to link everything in
the show notes so that our listeners can have
the access for purchase and also for listening.
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forward to sharing more joyous and meaningful
experiences with you on the PianoPod. So Jared.
So what were you thinking? Abandoning everything
in North America to go to Poland. I'm teasing.
So, you know, you are originally from Montreal.
I'm originally from Ontario. I was born in Niagara
Falls and I grew up in Toronto and now I live
in Montreal. Got it. Yeah. And then you also
studied in New York, correct? That's right. Yeah.
So basically your childhood and extensive studies
were done in North America, although Canada and
of course America is two different countries
and two different educational systems too. But
then you moved to Poland and what led you to
study? Well, you mentioned briefly, but was Anna
the deciding factor for you? Yes, she was. That's
an easy answer. Her first lessons, not only mine
about the Liszt Sonata and some Chopin ballads,
but watching her teach other people at this masterclass
convinced me that this is what I needed and it
would be good for me. I was very, very happy
with my life. I had always planned to move to
New York. I was very happy to get to study with
the teachers I worked with there. And now I'm
very lucky that on occasion I get to be back
there teaching. For example, my last year, my
first engagement of the year was teaching the
piano seminar at Juilliard. That's a huge honor
to be invited to give any kind of teaching there.
And I talked about this exact question that you
said, how do you build a career and what do you
do? And the answer that I like to give is you
take the unexpected opportunity that is not the
obvious way forward that you always planned.
Because maybe there's a deeper reason in your
heart, really deep, or something you really want
to do, that you just don't consider possible.
And I never had considered it possible from my
early years in Toronto that I would ever meet
Anna Goretzka, because I'd heard her albums and
I knew who she was. Everyone in the musical world
knows who Goretzka is because of Third Symphony,
right? So it's just unfathomable not to form
sort of a complex, like this family is a celebrity,
you'll never even get close. But that first masterclass
in Warsaw, I knew if she would be even halfway
interested, I'm moving to Poland in the fall.
And so when she offered a place in her class,
I don't even remember other than thinking, I've
got to call my teacher. And I did. I emailed
her and we chatted on the phone. And she said,
you need to go. It's a fantastic opportunity.
And then I moved out of my apartment, which was
in the North Bronx. on Pelham Parkway. And I
thought, next year, I'm just going to be going
down into Manhattan for my lessons every day
and planning to do competitions in Europe. And
so I would always be going to JFK to get to Warsaw
anyway, or to get to London or to Dublin or whatever.
And I thought, honestly, economically, it'd be
better if I was just taking the train from Katowice
rather than flying from New York City. So I asked...
Anna, I remember our conversation was in Warsaw,
right outside of the Chopin Academy of Music.
And she put me in touch with the admissions department
in Katowice, who sent me all the paperwork. And
then I wrote to her from Hungary. I was in another
program that summer with Jano Jando. And I wrote
to her two weeks later and I said, OK, so I'm
coming to Katowice, you know, and she wrote back,
you're really fast. You're like some kind of
high speed train. But there was no question in
my mind after hearing her teach and feeling.
I remember the first thing she said about La
Sonata and the first thing she said about Chopin's
Fourth Ballade. She said, you understand the
piece really, really well. And now let's work
on. She listed a few things that I could work
on technically, and she had them solved within
the class. And that's always interested me very
deeply about piano teaching, that if you really
know exactly what has to be done in order to
make something work. You can solve issues that
have plagued the person's playing for years in
five minutes if you know how to do it. And I
walked out of those classes a different pianist.
So I knew I can only imagine what will happen
if I spent five years. At that time, I think
I was only thinking two years, master's and finish
and then C. But I stayed for another few. And,
you know, it's difficult to really compare it
to anything else because nothing like that had
ever happened to me. But when you... when you
know it works, you just know you have to do this.
You're not going to get another opportunity.
They don't come along every day, and they don't
last often if they do. And the minute I put my
bags down in the dormitory in Katowice, and I
felt, this is very different than New York City.
Not everyone here speaks English. I'm going to
have to learn the language. I was a little overwhelmed.
But then at the first lesson, we played through
B minor Chopin sonata. And the minute she started
teaching again, it was exactly like I'd remembered
in Warsaw. This person knows exactly what to
say to get my interest in the music. I want to
run to the practice room and try everything she
just said. In fact, I remember that first lesson
in the academy. She told me. We need 50, at least
minimum, 50 different ways of playing every phrase
before we just choose one. So don't rush. Go
to the practice room and find as many possible
ways as you can think of to play the B minor
sonata so it's not this long, boring 40 minutes
of the same thing you've practiced over and over
again. I love this kind of teaching. And it just
worked. I mean, obviously it did, otherwise we
wouldn't be sitting here at this point, I think,
as it develops, right? It's a long evolution,
but when you know it works... You just feel something
and you do it. And I was very lucky to have in
my corner at the time, my beloved teacher, Veda
Kaplinsky, who said to me, this just sounds right.
It just sounds right. You need to do it. And
that's also very rare, because when you build
a life in our sort of North American direction
with big names and big schools and the idea that
your career needs to go in a certain direction
in order to be successful, a 10 year trip to
Europe. isn't necessarily the way that we advertise
go do that but um it was the right thing for
me and it was good for me I mean it built it
built my life now as I know it but looking at
you like because I also teach too and young students
and the way this North America teaches or system
like competitions and everything right as opposed
to what you gained in five years in Poland Yeah,
I'm looking from here. It's like, wow. I can
envy you, you know, I envy you. I did get very,
very lucky. What do we tell our kids? And I teach
kids, too. We tell them to do their exams, to
apply to big name conservatories, that they should
look at Europe's competition world. But the idea
of going to live in Europe and to imbibe the
culture of it and to feel like you're not rapaciously
looking for the next experience, you need to
build your resume. You just want to sit with
someone who knows music and get to know what
they know and to be in that space for a long,
long time just to absorb. This is a very different
narrative. And this is how it looked for me going
to Poland was just to be around other musicians
who were just musical holics and don't want to
talk about the business and the agents and the
career side of things until you absolutely have
to. But for now, our work in the studio that
I remember so clearly was that every composer.
we were studying was our obsession for that period.
And just every detail of it and every sense of
how to touch the keyboard, how to make sound,
how to listen to sound. Of course, it changes
you. It transforms not only as a pianist and
as a musician, but you get the feeling that this
teacher really cares about you, cares where you're
going and cares what's going to happen to you
when you get there. So you better be ready. And
the teaching goes. in that direction, which I
think is the right one. Then you've described
to yourself your pianism as unrecognizable compared
to where you started. So tell me. I went to Katowice
feeling like if I'm not immediately taken to
the highest level of competition technically,
then it means I'm not a pianist. And Anna set
that one in the right direction within the first
few lessons. You have to be a musician. And she
started coloring it all in with the way you make
deep, rich, beautiful sound and feel the interpretation
and time everything you do on the stage according
to the real sense of the feeling of the score
and a deep understanding of how it works. And
after the first year, I couldn't remember my
technique being better and my musicality being
present all the time. It was never... Anything
explained technically or practice wise about
how to play the instrument that was excluded
from how to think about sound and how to hear
music. And I mean, for that reason, Anna was
fantastic for me because she could sense exactly
where I was thinking too much schematically,
too much mechanically and put into the sound
a kind of color. And there was never any direct
criticism of me trying to be a better pianist
or trying to just focus on technique. But I remember
thinking after one lesson on a Chopin etude,
it felt more deep and emotional and riveting
than the last time I had played a Schubert sonata
or a Beethoven sonata. It was just something
really, really invested in the electricity of
every single note and the feeling of playing
it. That's something special. I don't think a
lot of teachers spend time practicing with their
students, but Anna will show you how to practice
it so that you can feel the way she's thinking
it and you can see the way the score works. And
that's something. There's just more time for
lessons there as well. I love that in Karavica.
It wasn't just one hour a week and you're done.
Sometimes two, three hours. This was incredible.
And I used to think, my God, now I teach all
the time. I practice with my students like Anna
taught. So I teach. And I used to think she's
probably getting really bored of sitting through
another lesson on a Rachmaninoff. We did the
second concerto and she turned to me smiling.
I can have a hundred lessons like this where
we just practice. careful and touch the piano
perfectly and think about the interpretation
and this was fantastic do you remember this on
Rachmaninoff second yeah yeah I'm really ashamed
here to listen to all these things you're doing
you're talking about me thank you so much you're
a perfect student there so everything you you
say now uh is just a perfect example of someone
who who knows a lot about playing the piano and
the music itself so yeah i must say i was blessed
with great teachers me myself i i had really
really great teachers so first i had this old
lady vanda meloska she was already retired when
i started with her and she was just an expert
in teaching there is a big book written by her
very important book used nowadays about the method
and everything so yeah all these you know positions
and yeah but i must say these lessons were very
interesting because yeah i was very small i was
four or five so it was dancing singing repeating
after her some improvisations some technical
exercises some memorizing uh without the score
yeah so it was really nice And later I had two
great ladies. Later I entered a regular school
and I had two very good, perfect ladies. And
later I studied for five years in Katowice with
professor Andrzej Jasiński. And of course, this
is of course a person that almost every pianist
knows because he's a teacher of Christian Zimmermann
and he's very active. teacher and he goes to
master classes and so on and so on and this was
really great because he was someone who showed
me how to organize the whole process of preparing
a new piece how to work technically stylistically
formally so everything was really well organized
and very wise and very smart and very practical
And my last teacher was a fantastic Russian teacher,
pianist, first of all, and teacher, Viktor Mirzanov.
I went to Germany to study with him for two years.
And it was he who opened my eyes to new perspectives.
And he forced me somehow to look. To look for
both solutions, not to be afraid of doing different
things, not to calculate, not to think about
what someone could say about this, for example.
So what I learned from him is that you can't
calculate artistically. You must, of course,
calculate acoustically, technically. But you
mustn't calculate artistically. If you do this,
you are done. Nothing will help you if you make
some artificial puzzle or calculations. That's
not the way. So he was great, yes. That was someone
very important to me. And I must say, maybe something
that is also... slightly different than in US
or Canada is the whole the whole system of musical
education in Poland because I must say it's pretty
well organized from the very beginning because
we start early with a full professional course
so we have eight years of elementary school,
then we have four years of high school and later
this university level, academic level. So this
gives you 17 years of professional education
and we have two kinds of musical schools. So
the first one is the general music. I don't know,
general music school. So that you have everything,
math, biology, harmony, solfeggio. Yeah, everything
together. Physics, chemistry. And you go, you
start at eight o 'clock in the morning. You have
everything together. And so that's this general
music school. 12 years and there is another sort
of schools that you just go in the afternoon
and have just music so so federal harmony uh
yeah instrument choir orchestra and um all teacher
all teachers must have a full master degree so
uh so not no accidents no mishaps it should happen
that's just yeah some level of professional curve.
Even some students are getting the very good
fortune to study with you in a high school. They
had this opportunity, yeah? Yes, I do. So you're
a professor of the academy. I really like, I
really love teaching, yes. What we would call
pre -college, which is basically like a privatized
form of education, is in Poland part of the option
for you to go to high school, basically. So you
can go to a pre -college where for... Like what
Anna is mentioning. And when I practiced with
some of her students as an assistant when she
would go on tour, some kids are bringing Scrabble
concerto to their normal high school piano lesson
or a Beethoven sonata. Yeah, that's high school.
High school level is quite high, yes. Yeah, and
this is just normal public music school and then
there's specialist music school as well. And
these are options that you don't have to pay
extra for the way you would pay to go to pre
-college here. So this form of education is just
baked into the culture for you. I know. There
are a lot of competitions just for students,
for music schools. Just from where I stand, so
I'm teaching this one gifted child, but music
student, it takes a village to raise one student.
It's not just one piano lesson or one aspect
of things. It just takes so much. But in order
for this child to grow up, to be a good musician
great musician you have to have theory this and
that so i have to outsource this student to different
teachers because it's not in the system you know
what i mean so which means only the privileged
can have the access to things or it costs also
right so I don't want to complain too much, but...
But there is something special in Poland like
this because music education is a very important
part of the educational system. Absolutely. Yeah,
but I must say it's just this musical little
tiny island because the rest of the whole nation
is absolutely not, let's say... like this not
interested in artistic music yeah it's it's not
it's the whole world is like this it's like this
everywhere yeah yeah but teaching is fun teaching
is really nice and and this is funny because
yes indeed i'm teaching i have been teaching
for ages now if i think about this it's it's
a very long time but i still have the feeling
that it's the beginning and that i'm starting
I really can't feel all these years. So I think
the more I teach, the more I like it. Because
at the very beginning, sometimes maybe there
was a bit of frustration. I wanted to achieve
something quickly. I was hoping to teach everyone
everything. It's impossible. It's impossible.
And now maybe the expectations are different.
My expectations are different. And I can enjoy
the process itself. Not the result, but the process
is nice. Even if the lesson is difficult, even
if someone plays really, let's say, it's a poor
level or something like this. The process is
interesting. finding solutions or trying to understand
the student or trying to find the way to reach
him somehow him or her so this is this is really
an interesting job nice job yes although it could
be really difficult sometimes it is a wonderful
job yes but it's like jared it's a pure pleasure
Oh, that's good to hear. I'm glad one always
thinks, you know, I drove myself really hard.
Like I worked a lot and practice a lot. And I
now I teach a lot and I have a lot of empathy
for other teachers. And you realize how much
work goes into understanding a student when especially
if the level is not what you want to be working
with. Like and you ask yourself, how am I going
to reach them? How am I going to make sure they
get something out of this? I think to teach really
well, you have to be able to come out of your
skin somehow and live for the other person. The
reason is the most important thing. So when does
this teacher and student become the collaboration?
I actually really want to know the answer to
that because I met Anna when I was much younger
and looked at her as... huge larger than life
figure of contemporary music and now I'm playing
an album with her it's a huge change for me so
I'd love to know what tipped the scales in my
favor on this one I think it came very naturally
it came out very naturally and we just started
playing together and he goes yeah first we had
some fun playing this Brahms and some we played
not only Brahms what did we play together Brahms,
Beethoven, Mozart, and Rachmaninoff. Brahms,
Beethoven, of course, E flat major, yeah. Yeah.
Fifth, Beethoven, of course, that was the first
one, D minor, Mozart, and later Brahms for your
graduation. Yeah, and in first year was the Rachmaninoff
second. At the very beginning. That's right,
yeah. So we already knew something about each
other's playing, but I never would have considered
that this album, for example, would develop this
way. Again, I'm very grateful and very lucky.
But yes, it developed over this five years. And
then I did my doctorate on Goretzky. I was writing
on this. And then it became a more intensive
focus on just this composer for quite a few years.
It's amazing that the teacher -student becomes
this collaborator and then playing Anna's father's.
pieces and uh so and then which became this beautiful
album and you're publishing the book and all
just coming all to a circle right yeah yeah that's
sort of a circle yes that's right cool yeah isn't
that what teaching is all about i think so yes
you're right yeah yeah well we are almost coming
to our end of our discussion but um Jared, moving
to Poland completely changed the trajectory of
your career in a most wonderful way that you
couldn't even imagine at the beginning, right?
I'm sure. But so what advice would you give to
young musicians about stepping outside their
comfort zones and embracing artistic risks, for
example? It's where all the fun really is and
all the adventure of life is there. I never would
have dreamed of this conversation. If you told
me the day after I heard the recording of Piano
Concerto by Gretzky the first time, someday you'll
be sitting with the composer's daughter after
you made an album with her talking like friends
and artistic colleagues, I would think the person
was on some very strange drug. And that's not
possible for a little child living in Niagara
Falls, Canada. It's not an artistic mecca. And
I never would dream of this in my wildest dreams.
when the choices come up that you can feel life
is really calling you in a certain direction.
And it's because it's unexpected. I mean, provided
it's safe, take the risk. Because I never would
have dreamed of this conversation. And yet it's
now something that defines my artistic life.
And I really think to focus on something this.
closely and with this degree of specialization
on one composer to learn the language, to meet
the family, to discover new pieces of music,
and then to get to record it for a good label
with a really great artist you get to work with.
This cannot happen without those risks. It's
just not part of the normal narrative of life.
As Anna said a little bit ago, it's hard to imagine
why someone would move to Katowice and uproot
their whole life from living in New York. where
you're going in a certain direction with a certain
group of people maybe katowice is not exactly
the city everyone thinks you're going to go there
in order to build your life but i kind of looking
back on it and now based on where i'm at i love
that it works this way um that the city that
i'd heard so much about because of zimmerman
because of gretzky because of very very famous
polish school of composition um came from the
katowice academy I wouldn't have known that that
was possible unless I had opened my mind to a
new narrative and a new way of thinking about
how my life could work. Incidentally, how did
this interview come about? My fiancé wrote to
you, and he's from Bielsko -Biała, which is near
Katowice, and he was the one driving us from
Montreal to the recording studio in Domaine Fonger
a few hours from here. And he was just so interested
to hear this conversation happen that... he Patrick
wrote to you, right? So I mentioned this often,
of course, and I know it's not precisely connected.
But if I hadn't moved to Poland, I wouldn't have
found the love of my life. I know I wouldn't
have because that's where he was. So if it wasn't
for Anna's invitation, there's a lot of my life
that wouldn't look the way it looks now. And
I would be not probably half as happy or as fulfilled.
And so when you take those risks, your whole
life goes with you. And when you I mean, I couldn't
have known just how wonderful and generous a
person Anna is until getting to know her over
a long, long time. This didn't happen overnight.
But I'm very lucky because finding colleagues
like this doesn't happen every day. And when
you get them, and this is true of every one of
my most important musical mentors and now colleagues,
they seem to stick for life. They appreciate
loyalty. They appreciate skills. They appreciate
a good... human connection as well so don't be
afraid of doing this when it's like a huge risk
-taking scary seeming decision it can be the
thing that makes your life really happen and
also it really speaks volume about your dedication
hard work jared and your talent as well right
so not a lot of people want to use the word talent
but it's true right I think it's not possible
without having some need. I needed to do this.
The minute the opportunity came, I knew I have
to do it. And then Anna, so similar question,
what advice do you have for students, young students
who want to embrace, well, tradition and innovation,
because you are also an advocate for contemporary
music. I think everything is combined. So the
problem of performing. contemporary music is
combined with goals that young people can have.
And sometimes a lot of disappointment or hopes,
ruined hopes, come from, I don't know, maybe
ambitions, maybe not realistic plans. I don't
know. A lot of people come and say they want
to participate in the biggest competitions. of
course, in Chopin competitions and so on and
so on. And if we talk more, if I ask why, what
is the deepest reason, it comes out that maybe
that's not the best way to choose. So I think
that simple answers are the best answers. So
I think if a young person really wants to be
a musician, So the only advice is try to be the
best possible musician and try to be the best
possible person because life and music is connected.
You can't divide it and you can't be a perfect
musician and not to be a decent human being,
I think. Maybe there are some exceptions, I don't
know. But I don't think so. So that means try
to know all about your art, try to just work
hard and smart and try to build as many connections
with other people, other musicians, not in terms
of career, of course, that's also important,
but in terms of self -development, of self -consciousness,
of some, I don't know. a reasonable insight into
the whole process so yeah I don't know if it's
a wise choice now to start this musical education
and to start this professional career I don't
know the world is changing and who knows what
will happen who knows if what will happen in
five months even five days in five days even
looking into our musical bubble little bubble
so yeah this musical artistic bubble is very
small and there are even smaller bubbles with
contemporary music so these tiny tiny tiny bubbles
that are the whole world for us they almost they
almost don't exist in the world yeah so We are
somehow blessed, somehow happy that we have this
very special work and special time and love.
We do something we really love. But I would be
in trouble if a young person asked me what to
do, what to choose. I don't know. nowadays it's
difficult to give this advice because it is connected
um with real life it's not people often ask this
of professors and we tell them you know what
about your real life though because it's no longer
just a simple narration go do this competition
get that agent years ago it was much easier to
say okay just go practice learn new pieces go
for a competition find a nice teacher yeah everything
will be okay but now it's much more complicated
i think so um This kind of conversation we're
having now is amazing to think about. It's happened
over the last 12 years. It evolves much slower
than it looks. We go to conservatories and we're
told how to compete and how to get as fast as
possible to the highest level. But real life
doesn't happen this way. It takes time to develop
this kind of thing. And this is very important
for young students to remember. It will not come
as fast as you can scroll for it on your phone.
And it doesn't look like what you scroll and
see on your phone when it does happen. The reality
is somewhat different. And the reality is that
you can be very gifted, very talented. You can
work hard. You can achieve a lot in terms of
development, repertoire. And there is absolutely
no guarantee you will succeed in a competition.
Absolutely. It's a lottery, no? It's a lottery.
There is no guarantee you will have a career.
So the only answer is do what you love and try
to organize your life in the best possible way.
But don't imagine you'll be the second, I don't
know, Yoon Chan Lim or something like this, because
it's not possible. And when you focus your time
after you know that and accept that's the reality,
you find real art that you love and it fulfills
you more. It's your way. That means it's real.
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. It takes time and takes
a lot of, but, you know, active work, but at
the same time, reflection too. But yeah, finding
your own way is the best way. Just being true
to yourself and listening to your own voice.
Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much. This has been
a really wonderful conversation. Just flowed
so much. So, so, so well. So before I let you
go, Jared, would you take over and promote your
upcoming or already released album plus the book
and anything else? Well, first of all, I want
to thank very much Atmo Classique and the sponsors
that we've had and the Canadian Arts Council
for putting their faith in us to play this album
and giving us so many wonderful opportunities
vis -à -vis performing in good hall on good pianos
with a wonderful engineer and for their process
of releasing it responsibly and letting us have
artistic control of the content. That's great.
We've been followed up with... frequently about
how we want things to sound on the final version
so this album really does I feel represent what
we wanted and it's not always the case when you
do an album you get what you want out of it but
I feel it is a good representation a fair one
of Goretzky's music and it's been exciting to
play it and I hope everybody listening to it
enjoys being brought into the world of Goretzky's
piano music because this is something that It's
very enriching and very beautiful to listen to,
and it provokes new ideas like we were talking
about in the chamber music, the two piano music.
And then my upcoming book is called Gretzky's
Solo Piano Music, and it is published by Roman
and Littlefield slash Bloomsbury Press. It's
coming out in a couple of months. And that is
on all the solo piano music, a commentary on
the sources and translation of Polish primary
sources about Gretzky's music. And I feel that
it will really add something new to the research
landscape about Goretzky, his music, and piano
literature in general of the 20th century. So
thank you very much, Yukimi, for giving us the
opportunity to speak with you today about our
work, about Goretzky, and for sharing with your
audience all the work that we've been doing.
It's a great pleasure and an honor. Thank you.
Thank you for joining. That wraps up this episode
of The Pianopod. A heartfelt thanks to you, Anna
and Jared, for joining us today and sharing your
incredible stories and insights and expertise
with such joyful and authentic vibes. So to our
wonderful audience, you can learn more about
Jared and his work by visiting his website at
jareddunn .com. It's all in one word. And to
learn more, Anna Goretzka, please visit gretzka
.pl and please start listening to their newly
released album gretzky's world of piano on all
streaming services and of course thank you to
our wonderful listeners and for for tuning in
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bye everyone. Thank you so much. Thank you.