Welcome back to another episode of the PianoPod,
everyone. Today, I'm excited to welcome Dr. Molly
Gabrion, a violist, researcher, and author whose
groundbreaking work bridges the worlds of music
and cognitive neuroscience. With degrees in both
music and neuroscience from institutions like
Oberlin, New England Conservatory, and Rice University,
Molly is defining how musicians understand practice,
learning, and performance. Her newly released
book, Learn Faster and Perform Better, A Musician's
Guide to the Neuroscience of Practicing, published
by Oxford University Press, has already become
essential reading for musicians and educators
alike. I discovered Molly's work thanks to a
recommendation from one of our listeners and
reading her book was truly eye -opening. During
the pandemic, I dove deep into becoming a better
teacher and musician. I studied psychology intensively
and took a course on efficient piano practice
that had a lasting impact on me. I even encouraged
some of my students' families to join the course
along with me, and we learned so much together.
But until I came across Molly's book, Learn Faster,
Perform Better, most of the books I read on performance
and practice, especially those rooted in neuroscience,
were geared toward athletes. While insightful,
they often used sports terminology that I felt
distant from my experience as a musician. So
Molly's book was the first time I felt a neuroscience
text was truly written for us, musicians and
music educators, with language and examples that
resonate directly with me. In this episode, we
explore the science behind how our brains learn
and why understanding it can dramatically transform
the way we practice and perform. Molly unpacks
science -backed strategies like interleaved learning
and the power of breaks and why mental practice
really works. We also talk about performance
pressure, bad habits, burnout, and how to practice
in a way that's not only more effective, but
more joyful and sustainable. Before we begin,
a quick update. Every Friday, or every other
Friday, I post a new blog entry on South Stack,
where I reflect on creativity, life as a classical
musician, music educator, and behind -the -scenes
stories from the piano pod. You can find it at
thepianopod .substack .com. I'd love for you
to join me there. Now let's get into this eye
-opening conversation with Dr. Molly Gabrian.
Please enjoy the show. You are listening to The
Piano Pod, where we talk to the brightest minds
in the industry about how they are bringing the
piano into the future and thriving in a complex,
ever -evolving world. Welcome to The Piano Pod,
Molly. It's such a pleasure and honor to have
you today. Thank you so much for having me. I'm
really looking forward to this. Oh, yeah, same
here. I've been really looking forward to it.
So I first discovered your work. Thanks to one
of our wonderful listeners who recommended your
book, Learn Faster, Perform Better, A Musician's
Guide to the New Science of Practicing. Excellent
book. Thank you so much. Oh, yeah. The moment
I started reading, I understood why, you know,
they were so enthusiastic. And your book is truly
an essential guide for musicians and music educators
specifically alike. And what struck me the most
was how aware it is to find a neuroscience theme
or topic book written specifically for musicians.
Yeah, I agree. And I mean, that's why I wrote
it. Because that doesn't really exist. And I've
been talking about these topics for decades at
this point. Gosh, that's a long time. But people
often ask, is there a book I can read about this?
And I've always been like, well, not really,
actually. So I was like, well, I need to write
one. It's a really guideline to, or like an introductory
thing for many musicians, what exactly is neuroscience
and how we can use this information. to our daily
practice at performance right right yeah exactly
i mean i think as a teacher i think it's really
important that we understand how our brains learn
because that's what you're doing as a teacher
right and as a musician we spend so much time
on our own in the practice room, trying to improve.
And if you understand how your brain works, then
you can do that much more efficiently. And yeah,
that's, I mean, I think that's all of our goals,
right? Like practice efficiently and get better.
Right, right. But you know, even then practice
efficiently. I don't think a lot of musicians
understand that. I agree. I agree. Because they,
most of us believe in, I need to practice three
hours back to back. Like lock ourselves in still
that mindset. No. Yeah. Agreed. Yeah. And it's
just, yeah. I mean the, the mindset, especially
in classical music of. You need to practice as
many hours as you can possibly cram in the day.
And you need to practice for as long as you can
possibly tolerate it, like three hours, four
hours at a time. Right. And that's just like
so not how the brain works. That's so not what
the research shows. And so I'm very happy to
help dispel those those myths because it's it's
just not how it works. Oh, yeah. Well, thank
you. And then I don't think even educators, educators,
we don't know specifically how to help them help
students. Right. Because we are not taught that
way. Exactly. Right. And that also switching
the gear means switching all the methods, which
means it really takes a long time to readjust
yourself. Right. Yeah, no, I agree. And I mean,
I think that I think a lot of things I talk about.
in my book are things that educators have intuited
actually, when I do like presentations for, you
know, music education. groups, teachers, a lot
of teachers come up to me afterwards and they'll
be like, you know, I thought that that was the
case and I'm so glad to have science to back
it up now. But there are also really sort of
counterintuitive things like taking breaks and
things like that, that people haven't intuited.
And it's, I mean, of course we haven't, it's
very counterintuitive. It doesn't, you know,
really make any sense. And I like what you said
about having to kind of. redo how you're teaching.
I think that's true. And it can be sort of very
daunting to realize, like, I've been teaching
this way, or I've been telling my students this
thing for all these years, for decades, you know,
because that's what you were taught as a student,
and you're going to pass it on to your students.
And it's very daunting to realize, oh, my gosh,
maybe that's not the best way, right? And like,
I get that I've had to really rethink how I teach,
how I practice. And for me, it's been a gradual
process. It's not like I threw everything out
one day and it's like, okay, brand new way to
practice. Like it's sort of been a gradual incorporating
these ideas into my own practice and my own teaching.
And for me, that's, I think the easiest way to
do it because it doesn't feel overwhelming that
way. It's just like one new thing at a time.
Yeah. Wow, I'm so thrilled that we can really
dig deeper into that. But I truly enjoy the book
because it was, once again, written for musicians.
Because I've read, just like you, neuroscience
-related books, but they're all spoken to athletes.
Right. And I'm far remote from that. Same, same.
So as I'm reading, it's interesting, right? And
you can sort of relate to it, but in the middle,
all the jargon. Yeah. I'm like, I don't understand
all the terminologies that they use for sports.
For example, baseball and then football. So I'm
like, oh, I just can't keep going. Right. So
I have to, you know, in the middle of the book,
I have to close the book and then move on to
something else. Does that make sense? Right.
No, I agree. I mean, there's a lot of great information
about there, but out there that. is not hasn't
been applied specifically to musicians, right?
Like it's applied to athletes, or it's applied
sort of just like, generally to people. Because
I mean, this does all this stuff does apply generally
to people. And it applies to athletes. But it
can be Yeah, the jargon can be really hard to
get past. It's definitely a barrier to understanding.
And it can be hard to see, okay, they're talking
about you know, thus and such practice method
in an athlete for, you know, their sports practices,
it can be hard to see, okay, what does that mean,
though, for me as a musician, because what we
do can feel very different. And, you know, everything
I talk about in my book, in terms of specific
practice strategies for musicians, are things
that I really had to, you know, take the research
and be like, okay, what does this mean for me
as a musician? and try it out on myself first.
Like every single thing I talk about in the book,
I have used for years in my own practicing to
make sure it works, right? And I had to do a
lot of experimenting, like, okay, the research
says this. So let's try something in practice
to see, you know, how it works. I tell my students
that I experiment on them all the time, right?
That, you know, something works for me in my
own practice. And so I'll bring it into a lesson
and see, like, does this work for this student?
You know, and I'm very open with them in lessons.
And very often I say, okay, let's do an experiment.
I want you to try X, Y, Z, and we're going to
see if this works, right? And so, yeah, I mean,
it's been a lot of... thinking on my end of how
does this actually apply to musicians, but then
also experimenting and trying it out and just
seeing like what works, what doesn't work. Yeah,
yeah, yeah. Wow. So with that in mind, let's
talk about neuroscience. So yes, there's a lot
of myth around it. And then I asked my audience
if they have any questions to you. And then I
received several, but Some of the questions are
sort of like a line between psychology and then
neuroscience. They are all confused, right? Yeah.
So let's make it clear. What exactly is neuroscience?
Yeah. Neuroscience is the study of the brain
and the nervous system and how the brain works
and how the brain operates. Psychology is the
study of like human behavior, basically, like
how we are in the world and how we act. there
is a lot more overlap between neuroscience and
psychology than there used to be, right? And
some of the things I talk about in my book are,
I would say, fall into the realm of neuroscience.
Like this is what your brain is doing when X,
Y, Z. Other things very much fall into the category
of psychology. It's not talking about brains
at all. It's talking about human behavior. And
then a lot of it is an overlap. It's like, okay,
we see this behavior in humans. This is what's
going on in the brain, like behind that behavior,
essentially driving that behavior. Um, so yeah,
they've become, there's a lot of overlap in the
field, um, these days, but that is the distinction,
the study of the brain study of behavior. Makes
sense. Also, neurodiversity came up a lot in
the question. So but can you clarify your area
of expertise? Sure. Yeah. And also clarify two
words, because I think a lot of people get confused
between the word neurodiversity and neurodivergence.
So humans are neurodiverse. That means our brains
are all different from each other, just like
we are hair color diverse, right? Everybody has
a different color of hair. Everybody's brain
is kind of different. So that's what neurodiversity
means that we there's just. diversity in how
our brains work. Neurodivergence is someone that's
neurodivergent, has a brain that works in a different
way from the majority, let's say. Just like people
who have red hair have a different hair color
than the majority of the population. And actually,
when I wrote the book, I didn't know very much
about neurodivergence. And usually when people
use that word, they mean ADHD and autism, although
many things fall under the umbrella of neurodivergence.
I wrote the book in 2021. It takes a long time
to get a book published, I discovered. Since
that time, I have actually learned a lot more
about specifically ADHD and autism. It is not
my area of expertise. That being said, it is
sort of... one of the next areas that I'm looking
into very carefully for my own teaching, for
my own understanding. I've had a lot of neurodivergent
students. I've learned a lot from reading. I've
done a lot of reading since 2021. I've learned
a lot from personal experience, working with
students, all sorts of things. So I know much
more than when I wrote the book on neurodivergence,
but it is not, I definitely wouldn't say I'm
an expert. Wow. It's a really fascinating field.
Yeah. still new. Yes. I mean, and there have
been a lot of sort of misconceptions around specifically
autism and ADHD, which is usually what people
mean when they talk about neurodivergence because
yeah, there's just been a lot of stereotypes
around, okay, what, what does ADHD look like?
What does autism look like? And we're, we're
coming to realize that it's much broader and
it's a much more, it's much more diverse than
we, than we thought. It's not this narrow way
of being. It's also for a long time, especially
autism, been seen as this extremely negative
thing that, you know, it's a real, you know,
people always talking about curing autism, for
instance. And it's not negative. It's just a
difference. People who are autistic, their brains
operate differently. Their brains take in information
from the environment differently. It's not better.
It's not worse. It's just different. And we're
starting to realize that now. I think as a society,
there's more. researchers looking into ADHD and
autism in particular who are themselves neurodivergent.
So they have like personal experience with that
rather than neurotypical people coming in and
sort of, you know, putting labels and putting
things on neurodivergent people that doesn't
line up with their actually lived experience.
Well, thank you for clarifying. And then I think
you, we have to have another episode talking
about neurodivergent, right? Because there's
a huge topic. But today, let's focus on the practicing
the musical instrument part of neuroscience.
Let's do it. Great. So as musicians, our greatest
hope is to walk on stage, perform with the same
confidence or consistency we experience in the
practice room. And with all the hours we invest
in preparing and we simply want our performance
to reflect. that effort. But why is that so difficult?
That's the million dollar question, right? I
mean, I think there's so many things that go
into preparing for performance. And something
that I, I mean, the biggest game changer for
me with bridging that gap of, okay, I sound fine
in the practice room and I feel confident. And
then I go out on stage and like, it's a disaster.
It's like, what's happening? The biggest change
for me and the thing that I've seen. be a really
huge change for my students too, is interleaved
practice, which I talk a lot about in the book,
which is a specific way of practicing just in
a nutshell, rather than focusing on one thing
for a long period of time, that you're constantly
switching between different things. Right, right.
And on the face of it, that seems like a terrible
way to practice. It just seems very chaotic.
Just focus on one thing. Once you start to realize,
okay, when you do interleaved practice and you're
switching between different things, your brain
has to practice the skill of flexibility. Your
brain has to get good at, you know, you're practicing
one thing and then suddenly you switch to another
thing and you have to remember, wait, how do
I practice this thing? And you have to kind of
switch your mindset, that kind of flexibility,
switching of your mindset, remembering how to.
play different things when you're constantly
switching. Those are skills that we really need
on stage, right? Because music just keeps going,
right? It doesn't stop. And you have to constantly
be switching your mindset and knowing where you
are and sort of remembering how to play what
you want to play. Interleaved practice also helps
you develop the skill of just being able to play
it on the first try, which is harder to do, right?
And that's something that often falls apart on
stage. How many times have... all of us, gotten
on stage, not played well, and been like, if
I could just do that again, that would be so
much better if I was given a second chance, right?
Because it's much easier to do it a second time
when you've just done it. It's really hard to
just do it on the first try. And interleaved
practice helps that skill too of just doing it.
And so for me, preparing in a different way for
playing on stage was a real game changer. I had
never really thought before I learned about interleaved
practice, I had never really... realize that
just because I can play something doesn't necessarily
mean I can perform it, that I have to practice
performing it. I have to practice the mental
skills that I'm going to need on stage. And that
is a different thing than being able to play
it. And that was a real light bulb moment for
me, like, oh, wait, no wonder this isn't going
well. I've been working on being able to play
it. I've neglected all the mental skills that
go into. actually performing something. And once
I started to practice those mental skills, lo
and behold, it felt better on stage. Right, right,
right. Yeah, I totally understand that. So let's
dig into interleaved practice. I'm familiar with
the terminology. I actually took a course by
Dr. Noah Kageyama. He has this amazing bulletproof
musician. Yes, I've been a super fan of his for
like Ever. Yeah. Excellent. And it's so detailed.
And when I first tried that, it almost felt like
it's still counterintuitive as a musician. Yeah.
Yeah. It's really counterintuitive. Right. Because
we're so used to. So is it wrong to do blocked
practice, which means that this traditional,
let's say half an hour for the same section and
repeatedly. Right. I mean. I don't want to say
wrong because I don't want to make people feel
defensive. But the research is really clear that
blocked practice, like doing one thing for half
an hour, is really not effective. It's not nearly
as effective as constantly switching between
things. Because when you do one thing for half
an hour, and I practiced that way for decades
because that's how I was taught to practice,
right? And it seems to make sense. But you get
a very strong, psychologists, neuroscience calls
it, call it an illusion of mastery. When you
do one thing for half an hour, you get this very
strong illusion that you have mastered. mastered
it. And you're like, oh yeah, this feels good.
This is great. This is great. And then you go
to your lesson the next day, let's say for students
and you totally bomb. I think everyone's had
that experience, right? Of feeling great. And
then going to their lesson and saying to their
teacher, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. Like, I don't
know what's going on right now. Like I promise
I practiced this. I did so much better yesterday.
I think that's a universal experience. And when
that happens, that means you fell into that illusion
of mastery that you get when you do. blocked
practice. And so my practice has really changed
over the years, even when something's new. Actually,
the way I use interleave versus blocked practice
is different based on whether something is new
or like close to a performance. But I no longer
do like half an hour of one thing, because the
research is really clear that if you practice
something for a bit, and then you take a break
from that, and then you come back. later. And
later could even be like two, three minutes later.
It doesn't have to be like lots later. When the
brain gets that reminder, when you've gone away
and you come back and then you remind the brain,
that's really powerful. And that's really helpful.
for the brain. The analogy I use for this is
like when you go to a party and you meet somebody
for the first time, they introduce themselves
and you promptly forget their name. Everybody
does that. You're like, what is that person's
name? Right. But if like, say, I don't know,
15 minutes later, you hear them introduce themselves
to someone else, then you're like, okay, okay,
okay. Like you got it in your head now because
you've been reminded, right? And so with practicing,
like even if something's brand new and it's really
hard and there's a lot of stuff I need to sort
out, I'll practice it for like 10, 12 ish minutes,
something like that. And then I'll take a little
break and I'll practice something else for like
two, three minutes, just little short something.
And then I'll come back to that first thing,
do more practice for like. 10, 12 minutes, and
then do something else for three, four minutes.
So it is, I mean, I practice in 30 minute blocks
of time. In the end, most of that 30 minutes
is probably that new thing that I'm starting,
but I've broken it up with little snippets of
something else. And with experimenting with interleaving
and switching between things, it works a lot
better. Things stick with me a lot better. And
I don't fall into that illusion of mastery in
that. It feels good. And then when I come back
to it the next day, it's still there. I don't
have to redo all my work. Wow. Even the new piece.
Yeah. And like, so in the book, I talk, I talk
a lot in the book with interleaved practice about
using it to essentially test performance readiness.
Right. And that's sort of a different way of
using interleaved practice, which is really important
and really powerful and works really, really
well. When things are brand new, if you switch
between things too often, that makes it too hard
and your brain can't, everything's new. Right.
And your brain like can't really hold onto it.
using the party analogy with learning people's
names, if you just learned 15 new people's names
and you forgot all of them, and then you heard
them introduce themselves later in the party,
like you wouldn't be able to keep them straight
because that's too many new people. But if you
just have like one or two new people, like that
would be fine. You can keep one or two new people
straight. And so with new music, you have to,
what I've found is You don't want to do too little
amount of time on something new and interleave
it with like 500 different things you're working
on. And so like the example I just gave of like
one thing for like 10 minutes and then a little
snippet of something else and then come back
to that one thing and then a little snippet of
something else. I found that that works really
well, that I have like a main thing that I'm
working on in my practice and I'm interleaving
it with a little other things. But because it's
new. sort of focusing on that one thing, but
giving myself little breaks so that I can then
come back and give my brain a reminder. It works
really well and it helps it stick a lot better.
Wow. Then in the interleaved practice sessions,
do you? still repeat things i do okay yeah i
do yeah i do and it is like i talk early out
of the book about the idea of like um reinforcing
the right pathway right and things like that
because in order to um we want to form habits
in our playing right we want to form a habit
for me as a string player of like playing in
tune right and like you know making my string
crossings clean and all that kind of stuff and
like you do have to reinforce the right thing
more than the wrong thing so it Sticks with you
and you can do it again. And so, yeah, early
on in learning, you do want to do repetitions
to to solidify things. You want to make sure
that if things don't go right in your repetitions,
that you're sort of analyzing why it didn't go
right. So you're not just like repeating it mindlessly
because that's not going to do anything. But
I mean, like what I used to do before I knew
about interleaved practice is I would do like
a bunch of repetitions on something. And then,
you know, in one big block of like half an hour
practice or something like that. And then I wouldn't
see that passage again until the next day. And
I would find that I couldn't play it anymore.
That like, you know, OK, on day one, I did my
repetitions. Great. OK, I thought I had it. And
then I came back the next day and it was like
I hadn't done anything. What I do now is like,
OK, I'll do my repetitions. It's like, OK, this
is feeling good. Then I'll go practice some other
stuff and then I'll come back and I'll do more
repetitions on that and go practice other stuff
and come back. And it's it's the coming back.
um several times like throughout a practice session
or throughout the day to give your brain that
reminder just like in the party when you hear
someone introduce themselves again okay yes now
i've got it um that's what really helps it stick
in in the brain rather than just doing it once
and like leaving it and assuming oh it's fine
Yeah. And tell me more about this illusion of
mastery. I remember that word. Yeah. I mean,
the illusion of mastery really shows up. I think
all of us as musicians have had this experience,
too, of feeling like you practiced really well
and then you go the next day to practice the
same music. again, and you feel like you have
to redo all of your work, that nothing really
stuck with you from the previous day. Or like,
you know, if you made 10 steps forward yesterday,
you have to go eight steps back today. You like
basically have to go back to the beginning and
like do it all over again. And like, that's really
frustrating. And it feels like, it just feels
like a real waste of time. If you feel at the
end of your practice session, like, okay, yes,
I've got this. This feels really good. And then
the next day you come back. and all your work
is gone, you fell into the illusion of mastery
the day before when you were like, yes, I have
this. One thing that researchers who do this
research on interleaved practice, something they
say is that often people learning things are
not very good at telling how much progress they
made because they assess it based on how they
feel at the end of the practice session rather
than the next day. You can't. actually know how
well you practiced until you come back to it
the next day which is very weird that's very
weird because it feels in the moment like okay
yeah i can tell how you know this feels a lot
better um i will say because i've been doing
interleave practice for probably let's see over
15 years now maybe longer than that um anyways
I can now feel that illusion of mastery when
I'm falling into it, because I've had enough
experience with falling into the illusion of
mastery. But and then the next day being like,
oh, wait, shoot, that wasn't as good a practice
as I thought, because all my work is undone.
But also using interleaved practice and not getting
that illusion of mastery and feeling in the moment
like, oh, gosh, this is like. really hard and
really challenging and coming back the next day
and finding that all my work is still there and
I can then, you know, move forward. So I've had
enough experience with that, that I can now feel
when I'm falling into the illusion of mastery
and be like, wait, wait, wait, wait, tomorrow,
all this is going to be gone. Like don't practice
like this. Um, so because most of the time in
the research, when people fall into that illusion,
they're doing interleaved practice for the very
first time, like in that study that they're there
for, and they don't have, you know, years and
years and years of experience with it. Right.
Yeah. So then is this something that you would
introduce to beginner students? Yeah. I mean,
it's different how I talk about it with kids.
So in general, with teaching kids, I make everything
into a game. There's lots of research that show
that people, people in general, but especially
kids learn a lot better when things are embedded
into games because it's fun. And then, you know,
there's motivation for to win the game or whatever
that means. And with interleaved practice, there's
lots of ways that you can make it into games
and kids love it. I mean, it's really fun to
kind of switch between things and have things
be unpredictable and not, you know, know what's
going on. So like a really simple example of
this with an absolute beginner, one of the very
first things string player students learn is
how to hold the bow. And it's kind of awkward
and you need a lot of practice with holding the
bow. And so one of the first things that I teach
students in... when they, when they learn violin
or viola is, you know, I teach them how to hold
the bow and I make their bow hand for them on
the bow. And I make a couple bow hands with them.
And then we go do something else in the lesson.
We do other stuff. And then maybe, I don't know.
five ten minutes later we come back and I'd be
like do you remember how to make a bow hold and
we make another bow hold together and then you
know we go do other stuff in the lesson and then
one more time before the end of the lesson it's
like okay let's see let's let's see how well
we can make a bow hold so that's a really easy
way to do interleave practice with the beginner
is just come back to the same concept a couple
times within the lesson yeah yeah and then if
they at the end if they do a good job maybe We
can reward them with a little sticker or something.
Right. Exactly. Exactly. Or, you know, a lot
of teachers will do things like they have like
a wheel that they spin to choose like what scale
their student plays or, you know, something like
that. So games like that where it's sort of games
of chance that determine like what are you going
to play or how are you going to play it? Those
are also can be examples of interleaved practice.
So, yeah, making things into games is a great
way to use it with kids. Okay. Makes sense. And
then also keep them more focused rather than,
you know, doing the sequence and the predictable.
And then toward the end, I, some of the young
ones, they start yawning and right. Yeah. That's
a sign of a brain is telling them it's like enough
is enough, right? Enough is enough. Exactly.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Even like,
you know, I used to be a little. gym junkie you
know and then but in those classes where they
teach interval sessions rather than doing the
same chore same movements for long long period
of time and not only that exhaust physically
muscles but also you know you're not using your
brain because you're doing the same tasks so
there is no improvement so i've done this sort
of thing tabata exercise that is like 20 seconds
of doing this hardcore stuff and then 10 seconds
of off yeah you mentioned similar things in the
not the interleaved section of the book but um
somewhere in the maybe habit formation uh you
know so where you talk about those spacing yeah
yeah yeah yeah can you tell me Yeah, absolutely.
And this is closely related to interleave practice,
because when you're practicing one thing and
you go practice something else, you are taking
a break from that. Right, right, right. But yeah,
there's a lot of research on the importance and
the power of breaks of taking a break. And your
example of exercise of 20 minutes, 20 minutes,
20 seconds on 10 minutes off is is perfect. And
basically, the way that the brain works, and
actually, I use an analogy for exercising of
muscles. Let's start with that, actually, because
often people have experience with like building
strength and building muscles. I think anybody
who has ever done any kind of strength training.
knows that you don't actually build muscle. Your
muscles don't get stronger in the workout itself,
right? Like you don't get stronger while you
are lifting the weights. You're creating micro
tears in your muscle and your body repairs those
micro tears on your rest day, which is why you
don't do like leg day two days in a row, right?
Because your legs need a day off to rest and
repair themselves. And when the muscle repairs
itself, it repairs itself stronger. And that's
how you actually like build muscle. So with the
brain, you don't create micro tears in your brain
when you're exercising, but essentially you give
input to your brain while you're practicing,
just like you give input to the muscles when
you're exercising. And it's during breaks that
the brain actually does something with that information.
It continues to process it. The brain also has
to make actual physical changes to itself in
order for you to learn something new or get to
a higher level of. playing or whatever you're
doing. And the brain really needs you to take
a break in order to make those physical changes.
So another analogy I use is road construction,
right? If they need to fix the potholes on the
road, they can't have people driving on the road
when they're trying to fix it. They have to shut
it down, fix the road, and then open it back
up. And so it's very similar in our brains. When
we take a break, then our brain can go in with
their construction crew, right? Make the physical
changes necessary. And then, you know, after
the break, it will feel a lot better. So we as
musicians tend not to take. enough enough breaks
um and so we're really hampering our brain's
ability to do the processing and to do the actual
physical changing that it needs but breaks sound
really scary to many musicians yeah you know
what i mean i totally do so a couple a couple
more things about breaks one i think one of the
easiest and least scary ways to incorporate breaks
is to start with micro breaks. So breaks of 10
to 15 seconds, because that's really short, right?
There's a study that I talk about that came out
in 2021, so relatively recently, where they...
They had people learn like a button press sequence
on a computer keyboard and they would practice
it for 10 seconds and then they take a 10 second
micro break and then they practice it for 10
seconds, 10 second micro break and so on. And
what they found was when they when they analyzed
the data, the vast majority of the improvement
was due to the breaks, those little micro breaks,
not the actual practicing. They also had people
hooked up to brain scanner while they were. doing
all of this. And they found that during those
micro breaks, even though people were just sitting
there and like not doing anything, the brain
was continuing to replay what they had just practiced
20 times faster. So the brain was doing a super
fast forward replay of it. So the brain was continuing
to process. And then after that break, they would
always come back at a higher level than before
they were at the break. And so I didn't know
about this before 2021 because that's when the
study came out. But since then, I have been using
micro breaks a lot in my practicing. So we were
talking about doing repetitions. I will, rather
than doing a big block of repetitions, I will
do two or three repetitions on something and
then take a micro break. I get a sip of water.
I always practice in front of a window. So I'll
look outside and spy on my neighbor, see what's
going on in the neighborhood, and then do two,
three more. repetitions. And so that has made
a huge difference, actually, just those 10, 10,
15 second micro breaks in between repetitions.
It really, I don't know, I can feel how much
faster things get solidified for me, I can feel
how much better they stick with me. Over time,
it's really been amazing. It can be hard to remember
to do the micro breaks. But that's to me, that's
like the least scary way because they're so short.
But early on in the pandemic, I mean, I'd known
this research about breaks for a long time, but
I was too scared to try it. Right. Because like,
if I'm going to take a week, a day or heaven
forbid, like a week off from something like that
sound, no, I'm not going to do that. Right. And
like. But early on in the pandemic, all concerts
were canceled, right? Nobody had anything. And
I realized like, okay, this is the perfect opportunity
to experiment with this because if it doesn't
work and it backfires and I'm not prepared, it
doesn't matter because I don't have any concerts
anyway. So I did this huge experiment on myself.
Like, I think it was like April through June
or July, 2020. So very early on in the pandemic,
essentially experimenting with taking days and
weeks off from. Not practicing in general, but
like particular passages. I'd practice them for
several days and then I'd take days or weeks
off from it. And I am never, ever going back
to how I used to practice, which was trying to
do everything every day. The breaks just work
so much better. I can learn so much faster. Things
stick with me so much better. It was kind of...
I guess I shouldn't have been surprised because
I had read the research and I experienced exactly
what the research said, but it truly felt like
this magical thing I had discovered of, wait,
if I don't practice, I get better faster. But
that's, that's exactly what happens. Yeah. But
it's almost like, yeah, like, help me sign me
up because I, I'm all about that because it's
brutal. Like practice becomes such a, you know,
tour. Yeah. No wonder students don't like to
practice if it's so painful. Right. If we allow
ourselves to take a little break, mini break.
Right. But sounds like so you mentioned about
those repeats. You do whatever the passage one,
two, three and take a mini break and come back
two more or three more. However, now those practice
each practice segment has to be sort of perfect
or. Yeah. So, I mean, what I'm repeating depends
on what I'm working on. So sometimes it's not
a passage. Sometimes it's just like two notes
if I'm working on a shift and I'm trying to get
those two notes in tune. Right. Maybe it's if
we're talking about a passage, maybe there's
like a lot of little things within the passage
that I have sorted out and I've done repetitions
on each little detail in that passage using the
micro breaks the way that we were just talking
about. And now I want to see, OK, can I play
this whole phrase with. everything that I've
worked on. I've worked on all the little steps.
I know I can do them individually. I know I can
play the first half of the phrase fine. And I
know I can play the second half of the phrase
fine. Now let's put the whole thing together
and make sure I can do it. And then sort of doing
repetitions on that. But, and also being very
clear with myself, like what counts as a successful
repetition, right? So, and I think, especially
with kids, that's, that's really important as
a teacher to be like, okay, what actually counts?
What are we working on? right now, you know?
And so for instance, if I'm working on a shift,
maybe what counts is that I get the note in tune
with no adjusting, but I'm not concerned at all
with rhythm right now. I'm just trying to play
in tune, you know? And so it doesn't matter what
the speed is or whether the rhythm is right.
Once I can play it in tune, okay, maybe now my
next step is to do it in rhythm or to do it,
you know, closer to the speed or something like
that. So just being clear with yourself, like
what counts right now. Okay. Okay. Makes sense.
Yeah. But in order for students to understand
what counts, so they definitely need a constant
monitor and instructions from whether that is
teacher or parents. Right. Exactly. And with
students, I mean, I do this with them in the
lesson and I'm always very clear with them, like,
okay, I mean, we do it as a game, but you know,
I always say to them, okay, it's, it only counts
if. X, Y, Z thing is in place. You know, whatever
it is that I, as the teacher, think that, you
know, they need to work on. And sometimes it's
sort of layering of things. Like, okay, it counts
this time if, you know, your bow hand is good.
Now it only counts if your bow hand is good and
your posture is good or something like that.
You sort of layer things on. But then with practicing
at home, you know, I'll tell them, OK, I want
you to play this game at home with your practice
parent, whoever that is or whoever's practicing
with them. And I am very clear with, OK, this
is what counts when you're playing the game at
home. If you do this, it counts. But if you don't
do this, it doesn't count. So students have a
really clear metric. And depending on the age
of the student, like. It will be a conversation
between me and them, like, what do you think
should count when you do this, you know, at home?
Helping them develop that skill of sort of self
-assessment and being able to tell if they're
playing something well or not. And usually students
want to be way more strict with themselves than,
you know, I would necessarily want to be at that
stage because they want to challenge themselves,
which is awesome, you know, to see that, that
they want to sort of hold themselves to that.
that higher standard. And so sometimes it's like,
okay, well maybe the first step of your game
is this. And then the second step of your game
is this. Cause if you do too much at once, then
it's going to overload the brain and then everybody's
going to be frustrated. Wow. This is a really
groundbreaking of practicing from interleaved
practice to taking breaks. So in terms of breaks,
you also mentioned about sleep. Yes. And interesting
how this the sleep pattern, how it goes. There's
like a period where we dream and then that's
when we are blinking. The eyes are moving around.
OK, but yes, this is back of eyes. And then but
those period where you're not dreaming and that's
when you are actually observing everything you
learn, something like that. Am I correct? Well,
the brain does a lot of stuff when we're sleeping.
And one of the things it does is it kind of consolidates
and continues to process what we've learned during
the day. Different types of information are kind
of handled differently in the brain, like muscle
memory information, how you do something sort
of handled differently than what's called declarative
memory information. So like memory for facts
or something. So if you learned like a bunch
of facts in school and then you went to your
piano lesson and you learned a new skill on piano,
those are different skills in the brain and the
brain kind of handles them a little bit differently
and it consolidates and processes them differently
during. sleep. It's not really important really
what the differences are. The important thing
is getting enough sleep is really important.
So the brain can process everything fully and
sort of consolidate everything fully. And we
know that when people learn something, say on
day one, and they get enough sleep that night,
they'll be at a much higher level of skill the
next day. There's this huge jump in performance
the next day, which is so cool. It's like magic.
Like you just sleep and now you're suddenly like
way better. Whereas if people don't get enough
sleep, you don't sort of get that huge jump and
you're and you're learning is sort of stopped,
essentially, that you that you don't continue
to to move forward. You see the same thing with
naps, too, that, you know, if someone learned
something and then takes a nap, they'll get a
boost in their performance following the nap
versus just like, you know, staying awake and
going about their going about their day. Wow.
So are you all for naps? I am, although I never,
ever take a nap myself because most of the time
it's not like, what am I going to do? Curl up
on the floor of my studio at school? Like, you
know, most of the time it's not really practical
to take a nap. But some people love napping and
they frequently take naps and, you know, they
kind of feel. bad about it or like they're being
lazy. And that's like the total opposite. Naps
are great. If you if anybody listening is a napper,
like keep keep taking naps or if you wish you
could nap, you just felt like, oh, that's lazy.
I shouldn't take a nap. Like, no, go take a nap.
It's it's it's a really, really, really great
thing to do, especially after practicing. Really?
Wow. You know, honestly, I do sometimes take
naps, short ones, just because I'm a really early
morning person. I mean, I wake up. Really early,
like 5, 530. Then, you know, afterwards, then
by the time after lunch hit, I've been working
for a long time. Yeah. I mean, 6 a .m. till 12
p .m. Six hours. I've already worked, worked
for something. Right. Then I need a little booster.
Definitely. I don't want to drink coffee. No.
Yeah. Go take a nap. That's a great thing to
do. Yeah. So what I do is not on the bed because
I just want a little quick. Yeah. Booster. So
maybe on the couch or not even laying down, but
just to close my eyes. And yeah, but it really
helps me. It really helps. And what the research
has shown is like even very short naps are really
beneficial. And even if you don't fall asleep,
even if you just sit with your eyes closed, that's
really beneficial too. Like you've discovered,
like it gives you sort of an energy boost, right?
But it really helps your brain and it enhances
learning. So yeah, that's a great thing to do.
Wow. I'm glad I confessed. Yeah. But I don't
have to feel ashamed, right? No, don't feel ashamed.
It's like the perfect thing to do. The PianoPod
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on the piano pod let's talk about habit let's
talk about it why is it so hard to get rid of
the bad habits yes yeah exactly so Bad habits,
I think we've all experienced this as musicians,
right? As teachers helping students get rid of
bad habits and ourselves getting rid of bad habits.
And there's a couple of reasons why bad habits
are so hard to get rid of. One is that when you've
done something a lot, the pathway in the brain
that kind of supports that. skill or that behavior
has become really well myelinated. I think a
lot of people have heard about myelination, but
basically the neurons that are involved in communicating
for you to do that skill, they get wrapped up
in something called myelin, which is just a layer
of fat that allows the neurons to communicate
more effectively, essentially. And when a pathway
in your brain is myelinated, it feels really
automatic to do that skill. So I often say like,
especially for you know, anybody who is literate,
writing your name is very automatic. You don't
have to think about how to write your name. You
don't have to think about how to make the letters.
But if you have any like small children in your
lives who are just learning how to write, you
know, it's really hard for them. They really
have to concentrate on it. They might make the
letters backwards, right? Um, because that pathway
is not myelinated for them yet. So it's a really
sort of effortful, conscious process that they
really have to think about. But once that pathway
is myelinated, you just do it. You don't even
think you just, you know, it'd be kind of ridiculous
as an adult to think, wait, how do I make this
letter? Right? Like you don't have to do that.
And so when you have a bad habit, it's myelinated,
just like the pathway that's been myelinated
for writing your name. And so. I mean, can you
imagine writing your name and someday somebody
comes in and tells you you've been making one
of the letters backwards your entire life? And
you have to learn how to not do that. Like you
can feel how hard that would be to suddenly make
a letter a different way, even if it was not
difficult to do it the other way. You'd really
have to think about it because you just automatically
write your name how you'd always written your
name. And so with bad habits, they just they
just happen automatically, like without thinking
about it. And so when you're trying to create
a new habit, it can feel very frustrating and
kind of arduous because you have to think very,
very consciously about the new habit. Just like
if you had to suddenly make a letter totally
different than you'd ever made it before, you'd
really have to think about that. So you didn't
do it the other way by accident. And because
we're so used to our bad habit, it doesn't feel
good to do the new habit. It doesn't feel good
to have to think that hard. We're probably going
to be pretty clumsy with our new habit, right?
A very common thing that string players have
to do is change things with their bow hand. And
at first you can feel very clumsy and like you
can't really play very well with your new bow
hand, even if you understand intellectually,
like, yes, this is better. Even if you can see
how your old bow hand is getting in your way.
And so, yeah, it just doesn't feel very good
because it's a very conscious thing because you
don't have that myelinated pathway yet. I also
talk in the book about something called proactive
interference, which is when you learn new information
that conflicts with old information that you
already know, the brain tries to protect that
old information and actually actively makes you
forget that sort of new information. So this
is why it can be really hard to sort of change
your mind on something that's very sort of, you
know, well ingrained. different people have different
levels of proactive interference. And so someone
who really stubbornly sticks to their way of
thinking, even with tons of evidence to the contrary,
maybe they have really high levels of proactive
interference and their brain is like protecting
that old information, even if the old information
is incorrect. And so that's another aspect of
creating a new habit is your brain is trying
to hold on to that old habit, even though you
don't want it to. That is interesting. Yeah.
And so that I mean, I think that can help people,
one, give themselves more compassion when they're
trying to create a new habit. Because, you know,
even if you see very clearly how your old habit
is holding you back, even if the old habit is
causing pain in the case of like an injury or
something, even if it's exceptionally clear to
you. this habit. I do not want this anymore.
It's still really hard to change. And I think
if you understand the myelination thing and the
proactive interference thing that can give yourself,
you can give yourself more compassion about why
it's so hard to do that. I think it can also
help teachers understand why it can be so hard
for students to change. I think as teachers,
it's really easy to sort of. look at a student
who has a bad habit and you as the teacher have
pointed it out 500 times the student says they
understand they can do the new habit and it just
seems like they're stubborn or they're not practicing
or they're not paying attention and it's like
maybe but more more likely they are working on
it and their brain is just you know doing what
brains do and protecting the protecting the old
information yeah but explaining that from the
neuroscientist way it just makes sense oh how
human that is right how human it is exactly and
i think that like i mean i had to get rid of
a lot of old bad habits in my playing that were
causing injury so i've been through it myself
i've taken a lot of students through that process
of changing habits in their playing and i i think
it's i think it's important as a teacher to acknowledge
that like This is frustrating. And this, this
is a process that isn't quick and it isn't easy,
but you can do it. You know, I think a lot of
students often think something is wrong with
them when they can't change their habit, like
instantly it's like, well, that's not how the
brain works, you know, and understanding from
a teacher's perspective, like how long does this
actually take? And sort of, you know, when, you
know, for instance, if I'm helping a student
with a bad habit. And I see them playing with
their old habit, but then they catch themselves
and they fix it, making sure to point that out
and celebrate that and be like, what you just
did, that was awesome. Every time you catch that
old habit and you fix it and you make, you know,
you do the new habit instead, you're making it
easier for your brain to do that the next time.
And so helping them approach it from like a celebration
standpoint, rather than a why are you still doing
this old habit standpoint? Yeah, yeah. Yes, I
know that language, we have to be careful, right?
Right. Also, because and then the old way of
teaching or probably from my generation, if you
keep making the same mistakes or keeping the
old habits, oh, you're just simply not talented
or good enough. Right. But which is that's a
soapbox issue for me, though. The word talent.
I could talk all day about that. Yeah, because
I mean, yeah, you're right that it's a very old
fashioned view. That, you know, if a student
can't do something well, they're not talented.
And what the research is very clear on is that
like talent, that is natural ability. doesn't
matter in terms of whether someone achieves a
high level of skill. What matters is how they
practice. I think it's all of us have things
that come more easily to us than other people.
I think everybody sort of knows that, right?
And like, just like I was talking about hair
color before, like we are all different, right?
And we all have things that come easily to us
and don't come easily to us. And I think for
a long time, it was thought that if something
doesn't come easily to you, therefore you cannot
learn to do it at a high level. And that's just
simply not true at all. You may have to work
harder at it than someone for whom it comes easily,
but that's fine. You can work. You can work hard.
Right. And just because something comes easily
to you, if you don't work at it, you're not going
to achieve a high level of skill. Right. And
so it always makes me really it makes me really
angry when people say, oh, that person is so
talented. Like, no, they've worked hard. Right.
Maybe as a child, you know, they had, you know.
it was a little bit easier for them to play the
piano than some other child in their class. And
so then they were encouraged by their parents
and teachers and given lessons. And, you know,
then they grew up and it looks like, Oh, this
person has so much natural talent, but if they
hadn't been given that good instruction and encouragement,
like they wouldn't be playing piano today. Somebody
can't just like be born and be a concert pianist.
Like that's, that's not how it works. Absolutely.
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Now going back to the
habit thing. So then for some, people, doesn't
matter whether adults or young students or, you
know, the experienced people, it's hard for us
ourselves to see the bad habit. Right. Right.
Is there like a practical solution to this? Yeah.
So I talk in the book about old way, new way.
And so, yeah, often when we have old bad habits,
we're not consciously aware of it. We do it sort
of without even. realizing. And it's really hard
to correct something if you don't realize you're
doing it, right? And so there's this method of
creating or not creating, sorry, correcting bad
habits, not creating bad habits. There's a method
of correcting bad habits called old way, new
way, which essentially helps bring that old habit
into conscious awareness so you can fix it. So
basically the way it works is the student first
has to become consciously aware of The old habit
of the bad habit. And sometimes that is simply
pointing it out to the student that no one's
ever pointed it out to them before. And then
you point it out as a teacher and the student
is like, oh, gosh, I didn't realize I was doing
that. Sometimes it means like recording them
video or audio and like having the student watch
it so they can see, oh, I am doing that weird
thing with my hand. Oh, my gosh. You know, it's
so easy to video record now. And that's something
I do a lot in lessons. But anyway, bringing.
Bringing awareness to the student of you are
you are doing this and this is an issue. So the
student can actually like understand the issue.
Then the student has to be able to do the bad
habit on purpose and the new habit on purpose
that they can do both of them like on command.
Because often with old habits, sometimes once
it's pointed out, a student like can't really
do it. on purpose anymore, but it will keep happening
by accident. I'm sure all of us have had like
experiences like that with students, right? And
so the student needs to be able to recreate the
bad habit and be able to do the new habit. And
so once they can do that, and often it takes
a lot of help from the teacher, obviously, to
help be able to do that. But once they can do
the new habit on command and do the old habit
on command, then the old way, new way, like protocol
proper starts. where basically you have the student
play using their old habit and then describe
out loud in words in as much detail as they can
how the old way feels, anything that they notice
about the old way. And then they play the same
thing using the new habit and then describe how
the new way feels in as much detail as possible.
So you do this old way, describe it, new way,
describe it. You do that. five times. And it
feels very annoying. Actually, I've done this
with a number of students. After a student has
described it like two or three times, it's like,
why do I have to keep describing this? I just
described this to you. But what I found with
doing this with students is, well, one, the continued
describing of it helps bring that old habit into
conscious awareness. And if you don't do the
describing every time, it doesn't really work
as well. And also what I find with students is
every time they have to describe it, they add
more detail to it and the old habit becomes increasingly
annoying. They start to notice more and more
things every time they have to describe it of,
oh gosh, it feels really bad, not only in my
hand, but also in my back and my knee feels really
weird or something like that. And so they add
new details every time and they get more and
more annoyed with the old habit every time. Once
you've done this old way described, new way described,
you've done that five times. Then the student
just does the new way sort of by itself, like
five or six times just to make sure that they
can do the new way on command. And it works really
well to bring the old habit into conscious awareness,
to bring more awareness to what's wrong with
the old habit. And so how bad it how bad it feels
in a way that just as the teacher pointing out,
you're doing this bad habit doesn't that doesn't
work nearly as well. Wow. OK. All the things
that we've discussed so far, it's just so, so
great. Yeah. And then thank you. And then some
of the things were, let's say, you know, as a
teacher, I've been already putting things into
practice and you gave me the sort of validation
or confirmation. I felt so seen and yeah. That's
good. Yeah. But also do you find, you know, I
know you're a violist, but there are, you know,
In classical music, it's all about learning from
the masters and they're learning from this tradition,
right? Right. So I know there have been great
teaching and also at the same time, bad ones
too. And we've all experienced it. Also, the
technique that doesn't work any longer, the famous
methodology or whatnot, right? Right. Now, so
let's talk about new ones. Oh, even the bad ones.
Do you think that those things are sort of proved
by neuroscience? Yeah, that's a really good question.
I mean, I think that, yeah, like there's sort
of old ways of teaching that we realize don't
really work anymore, either like technical ways
of playing that we know a lot more about like
ergonomics and how the body works now. And I
think like, I mean, I'm sure this is true in
piano playing. It's definitely true in string
playing that there's like these old fashioned
ways of physically playing the instrument that
people played well in spite of playing. that
way rather than because they were playing that
way. And I think for many generations, it was
seen as the other way around. Like, okay, this
famous person did this with their bow arm and
they sounded amazing. Therefore, that must be
how you play. And now knowing what we know better
about how the body works, it's like, no, you
don't want to do that with your bow arm. That's
like, you can play that way, but there's a way
better way to play that's going to be a lot easier.
And that's the same thing with old -fashioned
teaching methods. people learned how to play
in spite of those poor teaching methods, not
because of them. And now that we know more about
how the brain works and how people learn, you
know, we can see, okay, that's, you know, those
are not good teaching methods. That being said,
a lot of great teachers over the generations
have intuited a lot of things that science has
discovered, right? And so it's really great to
have that sort of scientific validation of like,
yes, this is effective. What teachers have intuited,
what they've noticed with their students and
with themselves is correct. And here is is, you
know, evidence from scientific research that
this does work. Carry on, because that's a good
thing to do. Yeah. Wow. So that's why I really
have been enjoying reading this book. And then,
as you can see, I have so many. Wow, that's impressive.
They're very colorful. I love it. Oh, yeah. And
then, sorry, I spilled some tea on it. But I
had to get the actual copy rather than, you know,
downloading because I wanted to do this. I miss
doing these. Right. I'm a physical book person
too. E -books like don't feel real to me. I need
like the actual like physical book. I know. And
then folding the corner, you know, that sort
of thing. Anyway, so you also talk about memory.
Now, this memory thing is a big thing. Especially
for pianists. Especially for pianists, yes, because
we are supposed to be memorizing everything.
Right. Now, the memory, let's talk about memory
slips, right? Yeah. It comes in the different
shapes and sizes. So, now, there is a total blackout
on concert stage. And then or some of the kids
they do starting from the wrong octaves. So,
you know, this is this little kid. She's supposed
to be playing this little cute song and starting
two octaves lower. Some reason it's sounding
so horrible, so adorable. But, you know, oh,
my goodness. We're starting with somewhat sounding
like the piece, but there is a disconnect happens
in our brain. And then just I don't know, disconnect
between oral and motor. Right. Right. And you
can't move your fingers the way you want. And
that sort of thing, or maybe also starting somewhat
normal and ended up like an atonal. And it was
supposed to be Mozart, right? Right, right. So.
Tell me what sort of memory types. Yeah. So,
yeah, you know, there's many different types
of memory in the brain and they all work together
so seamlessly that we experience it as one like
unitary thing. Like people will say, like, I
have a bad memory. I have a good memory. But
they are actually separate memory types. And
we know that they're separate because. They can
be damaged separately, like people that have
a stroke or something that have some sort of
brain damage. They can have one type of memory
totally damaged and not there at all and other
types of memory completely intact. So that's
how we know that they are actually separate things.
And when we play music from memory, we're relying
on a bunch of different memory types. And like
your examples that you gave, like one very important
memory type that we use when we perform is muscle
memory, right? What is it? What does it feel
like? And so somebody that's like, you know,
suddenly like blacks out or blanks totally or,
you know, becomes atonal, like maybe their muscle
memory isn't very strong and they don't remember
like how to play it, what it should feel like
to play. Another type is our aural memory. What
does it sound like to play, right? And so if
somebody like forgets how it goes, that's really
hard. It's really hard to play it if you don't
know how it goes. And then another important
type of memory when we're playing is what's known
as declarative memory. So you're in the case
of music, your memory for like the actual notes
and rhythms that are, that are on the page. So
declarative memory broadly is like memory that
you can like tell to someone like facts or like
events that sort of happened to you, that kind
of thing. And so like with music, you could tell
someone what the notes and rhythms are supposed
to be sort of on the page. And all of us have.
One of these that's stronger for us, many people
it's muscle memory, many people it's aural memory.
For me, it's definitely muscle memory, no question.
And especially as kids, we tend to rely on the
one that is our strong suit. We don't even realize
there's these different types of memory, right?
Whichever one is strongest for us, that's what
we rely on in a performance. But if that one
breaks down, You don't have anything because
the other types of memory haven't been kind of
shored up and practiced. And so like if muscle
memory breaks down and you forget how it feels
to play and you don't know how it goes, you don't
know what the notes and rhythms are like, what
are you going to do? Like you don't know. And
so that's when you kind of stop and you have
this just you're just totally blank. But if all
three types of memory are equally strong and
you've sort of worked on all three really well,
then. You know, if one of them say my muscle
memory goes blank, but I know how it goes, then,
you know, that can help me get back on. Or if
my muscle memory goes blank and my aural memory
goes blank, but I know, OK, this piece is in
C major and I'm almost at the end. Therefore,
I have to end on a C major chord that I can find
my way to a C major chord. Right. And I can do
it kind of logically like that, even if I can't
remember how it's supposed to go. And so the
different kinds of memory kind of support each
other in that way. And usually if all three are
strong, if one breaks down, the other one will
kind of swoop in and help the one that broke
down remember, like, oh yeah, right, that's how
it goes now. And so when we're preparing to play
from memory, it's really important that we make
sure all three are equally strong so that we
have these sort of backup systems to rely on.
Yeah, so there are different ways to work on
the memory. And then, you know, aural can be,
okay, as a pianist, solfege, that may help. Right,
exactly. Yeah. So testing your aural memory,
can you sing it from memory on solfege, on la
la la, if someone doesn't know solfege, on finger
numbers, on note names, like whatever you want.
That's a great way to test your aural memory
of do you actually know how it goes? Yeah. And
how about motor? Yeah, to test motor memory.
So for pianists, it would be just don't press
down the keys or if you're using an electronic
keyboard, just don't turn it on. So there is
no sound. So because often people who have a
strong aural memory, but a weak muscle memory,
they're relying on the feedback from the instrument
to tell them whether they're playing it correctly.
Right. And if that feedback from the instrument
is gone and there's no sound. They have no idea
what they're playing, but that means the muscle
memory is really weak. You should be able to
play no problem with no sound and know that you're
playing it correctly or not. So for pianists,
yeah, just don't press the keys down or if it's
electronic keyboard, just like don't turn it
on. So there's no sound involved. For me as a
string player, my favorite way to test it is
because I... I mean, I can play with no sound,
but it's not as easy as piano is to take my cleaning
cloth and to slip it between the strings and
the fingerboard that mutes it. And you just get
a bunch of squeaks. And so you get sound, but
it doesn't sound anything like the piece. It's
just a whole bunch of squeaks going on. And that
really tests like, you know, do I know this?
Do I know what it feels like to play this piece?
And the other one you mentioned. Declarative
memory. Basically, that's like. analytical or
analytical yeah like knowing like what's actually
sort of on the page um and so for that like a
great way to test that is to um get out a blank
piece of staff paper and write it out from from
memory to see if you could do that's really hard
right but the actual notes the actual notes the
actual rhythms like key signature time signature
dynamics like everything you can remember like
write it out from memory that's often quite challenging
for people but it can really show you where you
have blank spots in your memory, right? I had
a student doing this once and the piece was in
three, four, and it was just like, it was a piece
of by Bach and it was just like straight eighth
notes. It was a current by Bach. It was just
straight eighth notes. And this student got to
one measure and there were only four eighth notes
in the bar. And they were like, well, clearly
something is missing because there needs to be
six here, you know? And they didn't realize that
there was this sort of black hole is what I call
it in, in that measure where they didn't know
what it was. And so that it can really show you
where you. you don't really know for students
that maybe don't read music or, you know, have
learned it by ear and they can't write it out
on staff paper, writing out like the names of
the notes or the finger numbers or something
like that, but like writing it down in some way,
not necessarily using musical notation. That's
another way to do it. Okay. Now it's challenging.
That is challenging, but also, yeah, I think
I would have my students say with words, For
example, okay, what does the section A, how does
that start? Yeah, that's great. And what key
ended up ending the section? Yep, that's great.
And after this section, what's the next section?
Tell me in words. Perfect. Yeah, that's a great
way to test it too. Yeah. Wow. Now let's talk
about real world, right? So with all these, then
we have to carry into the real world, which is
the concert stage or audition, right? Now, retaining
quality of work is another challenge that we
face. And then for instance, one of my students
who do well, and she does a lot of competitions
and so on. So she has to retain this piece of
music for over a period of a month, which is
especially for young ones, that's hard. Hard,
yeah. Gets bored, right? Yeah. The same thing
over and over. Right. But there's like a sweet
spot where you just learned and then polished
and then memory is perfect. And at the same time,
there's an edge. You know what I mean? Yeah.
Because it's still new. But then it's the first
performance. she does really well like you know
but after a number of mock recitals and everything
we do right then but the second and third performance
she had to do with other events yeah it just
loses or even the details are gone yeah and the
even the focus in certain sections is gone how
do we sustain this edginess yeah that's a great
question i think that's something we've all experienced
that it just becomes kind of boring right and
so there's things that you can do in practice
and then there's things that you can do in performance
so let's talk about the practice first okay um
so the things that i do they fall under the category
of variable practice um so I think it's easy
to think, okay, once you can play it really well,
you just have to maintain that. You just have
to keep repeating that because that's how you
want to play it. But actually, you're going to
maintain it better and it's going to be more
interesting if you start playing it in lots of
different ways. So for instance... you know with
this student like once they can play it really
really well they've given that first performance
when they're practicing in between the next performances
maybe they're going to try to impersonate different
pianists and play it sort of in a really different
way trying to sound like different pianists Or
another one of my favorite ones to do is to,
I usually won't do a whole piece this way. I'll
just do like a phrase or something like that,
but play it in lots of different emotions. So
as a very simple example, if it's supposed to
be happy, maybe I'm going to play it and make
it sound angry, which it's not supposed to sound
like, but that's a really good challenge, right?
And, or trying to, yeah, impersonate different
musicians, play it like different, like animals
is something that kids love to do. Like, you
know, how would an elephant play this? How would
a tiger play this? How would a mouse play this?
You know, but playing it in sort of lots of different,
lots of different ways to make it interesting
and sort of fresh. You can introduce physical
challenges. So for piano. Find things to sit
on that are the total wrong height, right? And
can you play it well when you're like way too
low or way too high or you're sitting on a chair
that's kind of like, you know, sideways or something
like that. But if you can play it well when there's
like physical things going on like that, it's
fun to try to do that, but it makes it, you know,
easier when you then sort of play it as written.
I also like to limit myself to one. expressive
parameter and see if i can do all of my musical
ideas using that expressive parameter only so
for instance for piano maybe articulation you
have to show all of your musical ideas just with
articulation and nothing else um or just with
the pedaling and nothing else it's really really
challenging um but it sort of gives you new musical
ideas and shows you sort of which um Which technical
aspects, because those are technical aspects,
right, of realizing musical ideas, like which
technical aspects you're neglecting, which technical
aspects you could think about with more creativity.
And then it makes the piece more interesting
and it makes it harder to play, which is a good
challenge once it feels good because it keeps
it on that edge. In terms of things to do in
performance, once something feels good. I did
this for the very first time in high school by
accident. I was playing an audition. I was playing
my Bach and I realized in the middle of the audition,
I was like, gosh, this is really boring. Like
I, I'm like doing nothing with my dynamics. I
need way more dynamic contrast. And so I started
literally improvising dynamics in the audition.
I don't know what possessed me to do this. You're
so brave. And I just realized like, wow, this
is really boring. Like I need to do something.
And so I literally, I remember improvising dynamics
and it was a, it was a college audition. And
I remember after the audition was over the, one
of the people listening came out and they were
like, that was fantastic. I'd love to have you
in my studio. And I was like, really? Oh, okay,
cool. But I've since discovered that that works
really well in performance for something that
is starting to feel stale, that like, I know
I can play it. Like, why do I have to play this
again? You know, you're kind of getting bored
with it on stage, like not necessarily like if
it's supposed to be forte, now you're going to
play piano, but like sort of improvising within
the bounds that you're given by the composer
of like. you know, slightly different dynamics
or slightly different direction and that it's,
yeah, it becomes an improvisation and it's, it's
just a lot more interesting that way. And it
keeps you, it keeps you engaged and keeps it
more fresh. Wow. Thank you. Yeah. I, I, I'm going
to tell my student that, but also maybe, is it
okay that we take a little bit of a break from
the piece and not practicing all the time? Yes.
I mean, that is, if you have time for that, that
is fantastic too. I mean, sometimes students
will have, you know, like they play a competition
on Monday, a competition on Wednesday and recital
on Thursday and right. And there isn't really
time to take time off, but if there's time to
take time off, that is the best thing to do.
You know, that if they have, you know, they play
it in a recital in March and then they're playing
it for competition at like the end of April,
let's say taking, you know, two, three, even
maybe four weeks off from it would be a really
great thing to do. Now let's talk about mental
prep. Yes. So this is still a very abstract concept
for many of us, you know, because once again,
we feel like at the very last minute, we still
have to be in touch with the key or instruments
and then just practice like a mad person. Yes.
Yeah. That's still the case. So mental prep is
something that is a very, very bottom of the
list or even non -existence. Right. And it shouldn't
be, but I totally understand that. I mean, I
used to have this fear that if I wasn't physically
playing my instrument until the moment I walked
on stage, I would somehow forget to play the
viola between being backstage and walking on
stage. Like in those, that one minute I would
forget how to play, which is obviously not the
case, you know, but like I. I definitely understand
that fear because I used to. Yeah, I definitely
understand it. So with mental practice, first,
there's so many things I could talk about. First
of all, the thing that convinced me actually
that mental practicing was worth doing because
I'd heard about it for years before I started
doing it. And I thought it was an utter waste
of time. Like you said, it was like so far down
the list. It wasn't on the list. But I read a
study that I talk about in my book where they
had non -musicians learn to play a very simple
scale up and down on the piano. um and half the
people like actually practice it on the piano
half the people mentally practiced it just like
imagined themselves playing it and in addition
to testing how well they could play this thing
at the end of the study they were also looking
at their brains because there was research that
had come out prior to the mental practice study
that found in string players that the part of
the brain that controls the left hand fingers
which is the hand we use on the instrument that
part of the brain gets bigger as a result of
the training that string players go under we
now know that any body part, essentially, that
you use intensively, the way string players use
our left hand fingers, the part of the brain
that controls that body part gets gets bigger.
So in pianists, it's both sides of the brain
that control the hands that are bigger. So anyway,
in the mental practice study, they hypothesize
that the part of the brain that controlled the
fingers and the people that were actually practicing
physically on the piano would get bigger over
the course of the study. And the question was,
would anything happen in the mental practicers?
And what they found was, yes, the part of the
brain controlling the fingers in the physical
practice group got bigger, like they thought,
but part of the brain controlling the fingers
in the mental practice group got bigger to almost
the exact same extent as the physical practicers,
which just blew my mind when I read it because
like they changed the actual physical structure
of their brain just by thinking about it. Right.
That is just like, that's just wild to think
about. Right. And I read that and I was like,
okay, maybe there is something to this mental
practice thing. If you can actually change the
physical structure of your brain, like maybe
it is actually doing something. So then I started
reading more about the research on mental practice
and what has been found over and over, especially
in musicians and athletes, is that when people
only do physical practice, it's not nearly as
effective as doing both physical and mental practice,
that you just make a lot more progress when you
do mental practice, which is, I think, the opposite
of what a lot of people would think certainly
was the opposite of what I thought when I started
reading the literature. Um, so yes, it's very
important, but also I think people don't know,
like, what is, what is it? Like, what is mental
practice? Like, how do you do this? So when you
mental practice, you want to be able to imagine
as vividly as you can in your mind, all of the
aspects of playing, all the sound -based things.
So like, what does it sound like in terms of
pitch, quality of sound, dynamics, phrasing,
like all the sound -based things? Can you imagine
that? And then all of the physical things. So
can you imagine, you know, for you guys as pianists,
like what your two hands are doing? what keys
you're playing, where your hands are on the keyboard,
what you're doing with the pedaling posture,
like all of the physical aspects that go into
playing. Like, can you imagine that? And you
can actually solve problems in your mind and
they will be solved on the piano. So if you are.
Let me give a piano specific example. I'm not
a pianist at all, but that's fine. Like maybe
you have something in your left hand where there's
a large leap. That's something that happens all
the time, right? In the left hand. And you are
constantly missing it. Can you, in your mind,
feel where your hand needs to go for chord number
one and then chord number two? Can you imagine
that? Can you see the keyboard in your mind?
Because the visual aspect, right, is really...
important. Can you see the keyboard in your mind
and know where you're going? Can you feel your
hand go from here to here? If it's a chord change,
can you feel, okay, this is the shape of this
chord. This is the shape of this chord over here.
Can you feel, okay, my fingers are on these notes
on the first chord. Now I'm jumping here. I can
feel I'm in the right part of the keyboard and
I can feel my fingers are on the right keys.
And you can do repetitions in your mind, just
like that. Just like we talked about earlier,
like you do in real life. Can you feel it? Can
you see it? Can you hear it? That, okay, maybe
it's a C major chord and you're going to a G7
chord. Let's say, you know, can you hear that?
And at first the answer might be no. The answer
is probably going to be no because mental practice
takes practice. It might be like, wow, that's
really fuzzy. Or sometimes people will be like,
okay, I can hear it, but I cannot feel it. Or
I can see the keyboard, but I can't really feel
my hand moving very well. And that's fine. That's
normal. The more you try to imagine it, the more
you sort of really like focus on trying to feel
that thing or hear that thing. It will start
to clarify in your mind. I also find that it
helps people to go back and forth between the
instrument and imagining. So maybe like play.
chord number one, play chord number two, then
try to imagine what you just did, then play it
again, then try to imagine what you just did.
So going back and forth in that way can help
clarify it. And then in terms of how I actually
use mental practice, I have just sat down and
done like a block of mental practice. I've mental
practice for so many hours on airplanes over
the years. Traveling. Yeah, traveling. Exactly.
When you can't actually play. But most of the
time, the way I use it is within my normal practice
session. So whatever I'm working on, I will try
to imagine it first and imagine it correctly,
that I can hear it and it sounds the way I want,
that I can feel that I'm doing it correctly.
If I can't and I can tell I'm making mistakes
in my mind, I try to fix it in my mind, like
we were just talking about. Once I feel like,
okay, yes, I can do this. It sounds right, feels
right. Then I do it on my instrument. And sometimes
it feels great on my instrument. Okay, let's
go practice something else. Other times I learn
something from my instrument. I'm like, oh my
gosh, I forgot to pay attention to this detail.
of it in my mind and it kind of surprised me
on the instrument. So then I'll put it into my
brain again, imagine it again with that detail
that I had left out. Once that's in there, then
I sort of put it back on my instrument. And what
I found is that once things are clear in my mind,
they're clear on the instrument. If I can't imagine
it, I can't really play it very well either.
That's a great, great way to do it. Yeah, yeah,
yeah, yeah. You have to first imagine how it's
supposed to sound and what all the details and
then do it. Yeah, execute it. Right. Yeah, yeah,
yeah. Yeah. Wow. I mean, there's so much. I mean,
we are running out of time, so we have to keep
going. But it's all these wonderful things. But
what made you really decide to pursue neuroscience?
Yeah, I mean, it was sort of an accident. So
as an undergrad, I went to Oberlin College and
Conservatory. And I only for undergrad, I only
applied places really where I could do a double
degree in viola and something because I'd always
really liked school. I'd always really liked
academics. I've always had a lot of interests.
I didn't know what I wanted to major in. So many
things are interesting to me. So I just wanted
to go somewhere where I had that option. And
so I went to Oberlin knowing I was going to be
viola performance major and something. And then
my freshman year, my first semester there, I
took this neuroscience class that looked interesting
in the course catalog, right? I was just like,
oh, this looks like a great class. Okay, I'll
sign up. And instantly I was hooked. After like
two weeks of class, I was like, this is the most
interesting thing I've ever learned about in
my entire life. This is what I want to major
in. So I didn't have any plans to combine it
with music. I just wanted to learn about it,
right? I was at Oberlin. Because I wanted to
be double degree in something, I found what I
wanted to learn about. I just wanted to learn
about it. And then when I got, I went to NEC,
New England Conservatory for my master's, not
intending obviously to do anything with neuroscience
because I was in a conservatory. And I got to
NEC and I pretty quickly in my first semester
realized that I really missed the neuroscience.
And I looked into NEC has partnerships with other
like universities in Boston. But as a master's
student and having to travel across the city
to get to another school and just like the orchestra
rehearsal schedule, like it just wasn't going
to work on a practical level. So I talked to
one of my professors and I was like. am I allowed
to do an independent study? Because there were
things having to do with music and the brain
that I had started seeing those connections when
I was a student at Oberlin. I wasn't like actively
connecting them, but I had started seeing sort
of connections between what I was learning in
my neuroscience classes and what I was learning
from my teacher, my viola teacher about practicing.
And so at NEC, I asked like, can I do an independent
study looking into this, you know, just for myself?
And the answer was yes, which was great. And
so basically that semester, I just like. read
everything i could get my hands on in terms of
like research studies on on learning and memory
um everything that i could i could find to sort
of answer these questions that i had for myself
about well how does this work and is there a
better way to practice and it was just for myself
it was just for my my own interest and then when
i got to rice which is where i did my dma in
in viola I was back at a research institution.
So again, I asked, can I take graduate level
neuroscience classes here? And they were like,
why do you want to do that? And I was just like,
is the answer yes or no? And they were like,
I guess so. So I did, which was great. But there
was a professor there, Tony Brandt. He's a composition
professor who he has a lot of interest in this.
connection between neuroscience and music. And
he learned about my interests. And so we put
together two interdisciplinary symposia on music
and the brain. And as part of the first one,
I believe the school asked me to teach this lunchtime
series. They called it pizza and brains, the
school supplied free pizza. And I would teach
like a little class over lunch about anything
I wanted actually having to do with music and
the brain. And that's when I really started like
sharing this information with other people. And
I realized like, One, wow, this is really fun
to like share this information. And two, people
found it interesting, which maybe shouldn't be
surprising, but it was kind of surprising to
me that like other people found this as interesting
as I did. And so that's when I really started
like intentionally combining them with the sort
of purpose of sharing it with other people and
helping musicians. practice better um so it was
kind of yeah my own personal interest that sort
of by accident became this thing but combining
the two what a genius idea and also it really
makes sense and right yeah it does right and
how much of a brain work it takes to play an
instrument musical instrument yeah exactly yeah
and i mean to me now it's like obvious like In
order to learn something, you should know how
the brain works. But I don't think that's, I
mean, it certainly wasn't obvious to me before
I realized it. I don't think it's obvious to
most people. But yeah, learning is using your
brain, changing your brain. You should know how
that works to do it in a way that's effective.
Wow. So we should, on some level, have this knowledge
of neuroscience. I think so. I mean, I don't
think I don't think you need to have like an
in -depth knowledge of neuroscience. But but
I do think that I mean. We are all the like owners
of our own brain. Like you should know how your
brain works. You should know how your body works.
It's yours. You live your whole life with it.
And brains are really complicated. Brains are
really amazing. And having sort of a basic understanding
of how the brain works, what the brain needs,
how the brain learns, I think is really empowering
to people because then they can understand, oh,
this is hard for me because X, Y, Z, or just
because it's hard doesn't mean I can't do it.
It just means, you know. things are hard for
people but you can the brain is incredibly flexible
you can learn anything which is just amazing
yeah yeah brain plasticity is that what exactly
yeah plasticity is the word because i read a
peak by uh andres yeah that's a great book yeah
yeah yeah oh great great book wow i wish we had
more time but we i just have one more philosophical
thing here yes so are there do you think that
there yeah opportunities for musicians who want
to pursue in neuroscience? Yeah, that's a great
question. I mean, I think like more and more
these days, there is interest in interdisciplinary
collaborative research, right? And more and more
these days, research is being done on learning
and memory, specifically with music. musicians
and neuroscientists a lot of the older research
i always felt reading it like they needed to
talk to like one musician because there's some
weird things in this paper that like don't make
any sense from a musician's perspective but that
seems to be happening more and more that there's
these collaborations sort of going on the other
thing that keeps happening is technology continues
to advance um and so we have ways of measuring
what the brain is doing that we didn't have And
so we can ask much more interesting questions.
We can get much more interesting answers because
the technology allows us to sort of understand
what's going on in a much more precise way than
we could earlier when we didn't have the capability
to sort of, you know, measure what's going on
inside someone's head. So, yeah, I think the
questions that are being asked now in the sciences
around learning and memory in general and looking
at musicians, I think we're asking better questions
because we have the technology to answer them.
And because more musicians are getting involved
in this research and, you know, asking questions
that are really of interest to us in terms of
our day to day lives and practicing. Wonderful.
Yeah. So for those who are listening and watching,
please check out her book. Molly's book, Learn
Faster, Perform Better, A Musician's Guide to
the Neuroscience of Practicing, filled with valuable
insights. And what I love about it is there are
so many anecdotes that you include stories that
stick with me. So you talk about your student,
Evan, or the monkey story. It sticks with me.
And then they're often associated with a certain
aspect of the brain thing. So it's great. Wonderful.
And then it's informational, but at the same
time, quite entertaining too, because of those.
Thank you. Yeah. It's fun. I really got, I mean,
I really wanted it to be accessible. I didn't
want it to be like dry and jargony because nobody's
going to read that, right? Like I wanted it to
be something that people could read easily and
was at least somewhat enjoyable to read. So I'm,
I'm really glad to hear that. And relatable,
but then here's a challenge though. How can we
practice this? So then I checked out your website,
mollygabrianne .com and you offer courses. So
tell us a little bit. I do. I try to make as
many resources available to people as possible
in many sort of different ways. I do have so
I have a self -paced course that people can just
go through themselves. It's basically it's a
bunch of videos to watch and then sort of worksheets
that help. walk people through like implementing
different practice strategies. There's also like
mini courses. If you're only interested in certain
topics in the big self -paced course, you can
just get that. And then I also teach live online
classes where we, yeah, we talk about this stuff.
And my favorite part of doing the live online
classes. is um doing they're on zoom and so everybody's
in their own zoom room on mute and we can actually
do guided practice with everybody practicing
at once but everybody's on mute so you know it
isn't cacophony and we can try out these different
practice methods in real time and then people
can see how they work and then we can talk about
it you know ask questions um about it so the
live i started doing them a year ago i think
um And it's been really, really fun to teach
those. So, yeah. Wonderful. So all the things
that you can find from your website at mollygibrian
.com. And also check out her amazing albums.
One is Trailblazers. And also another one is
Trios for Two Piano, both with Danny Holt, wonderful
pianist and percussionist. Yes. Wonderful. So
before we go, is there anything else you would
like to? I don't think so. You asked such great
questions. It was really fun. Oh, it was so fun.
So, but before we go, we have to do this rapid
fire questions. Yes. I'm ready. Alrighty, let's
go. What is your comfort food? Oh my God. Chicken
soup. That's a good one. How do you like your
coffee? I don't drink coffee. Oh, do you, are
you a tea drinker? I drink water. I'm very boring.
That's okay. I do drink tea on occasion, and
I like chamomile tea. Oh, that's a nice one.
Yes. Yeah. Cats or dogs? Cats. Sunrise or sunset?
Oh, man. Both? Am I allowed to say both? No,
you, of course. Summer or winter? Winter, 100%.
I love winter. Oh, me too. Yay. What skill have
you always wanted to learn but haven't had a
chance to? I would love to be fully fluent in
another language. I've learned a number of languages,
but I'm not fully fluent in anything, and I would
love that. What is your word or words to live
by? I mean, something I say more than anything
else when it comes to practicing is experiment
on yourself. Nice. Yeah, I would say, I mean,
my words to live by in terms of my life is that
like nobody is going to protect your well -being
and your health if you don't do it yourself.
So protect your well -being and your health.
Oh, yeah, that's a good one. What is the most
important quality you look for in other people?
Oh, man. I would say, let's see. I would say
integrity and curiosity. Now, next one may be
the most difficult one. Name three people who
inspire you, living or dead. Oh, geez. I can
only name three? I know. Oh, man. Okay. Let's
see. I have to pick only three. It can be a group
of people, too. Okay. Okay. Okay. So group of
people, all of my viola teachers. All of the
viola teachers I've had since I was a kid, actually,
every single one of them, their voices are in
my head in a good way, not in a beating me down
way, in a good way, in terms of helping me, you
know, work my way through whatever I'm playing.
So all of my viola teachers, for sure, sort of
in my head. I would also say one of my... neuroscience
professors at Oberlin. His name's Mike Luce.
He, I really enjoyed his classes, but he was
also my advisor. And whenever I would go in for
advising, I didn't really need advising. I knew
what classes I was going to take and what I wanted
to do, but he would always ask me really great
questions about, well, why do you want to take
this class? And what do you think you're going
to get out of it? And just like that kind of,
you know, he just was really curious and made
me think more about it. So that I've always kind
of held that sort of with me. And then, um, A
third person, I would say Larry Radcliffe, conductor
at Rice for many, many years. He was the conductor
when I was there. And I just learned so much
about music and life and treating people well.
And yeah, just I learned a lot from Larry. Name
one piece in your current playlist. Oh, man,
just one. Let's see. I've been listening to a
lot of Bach. recently, actually, which is, you
know, very, very standard and something that
I've been obsessed with the Bach Chaconne for
forever. That's such kind of a standard answer,
but it's such an amazing piece. And for violists,
we sometimes play it. It's not as standard for
us as violinists, but that's sort of been my
sort of. pet project recently is learning the
Bach Chaconne. It's been a bucket list piece
for me. Do you have to transpose to another key?
Yeah, we play it in G minor rather than D minor.
And some of the chords are too big for my hand,
so I've had to re -voice some of them. I don't
know that I'll ever play it publicly, but that
doesn't matter to me. So yeah, I've had to make
some modifications so that I can physically play
it. I would love to hear it on viola. It's really
great. It's really great on viola. love it on
on viola wow so last question fill in the blank
music is blank music is blank these are hard
um music is, let's see, I would say music is
a celebration of life. How's that? Yes, sounds
wonderful. Thank you. Wow. This concludes the
episode of The Pianophon. A heartfelt thanks
to you, Molly, for joining us today and sharing
your incredible stories, insights, expertise
with such authenticity and joy and making this
unknown territory sound so fun and engaging.
So to our wonderful listeners, you can learn
more about her and her work by visiting her website
at mollygabrian .com. We'll list all the links
in the show notes. And of course, thank you to
our faithful listeners for tuning in today. If
you enjoyed today's episode, please give it a
thumbs up and subscribe to The Pianopod on YouTube.
Don't forget to share and review this episode
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I will see you for the next episode of The Pianopod.
Bye, everyone. And thank you, Molly, once again.
Thank you for having me. Thanks for watching!