WEBVTT

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Welcome back to another episode of the PianoPod,

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everyone. Today, I'm excited to welcome Dr. Molly

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Gabrion, a violist, researcher, and author whose

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groundbreaking work bridges the worlds of music

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and cognitive neuroscience. With degrees in both

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music and neuroscience from institutions like

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Oberlin, New England Conservatory, and Rice University,

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Molly is defining how musicians understand practice,

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learning, and performance. Her newly released

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book, Learn Faster and Perform Better, A Musician's

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Guide to the Neuroscience of Practicing, published

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by Oxford University Press, has already become

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essential reading for musicians and educators

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alike. I discovered Molly's work thanks to a

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recommendation from one of our listeners and

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reading her book was truly eye -opening. During

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the pandemic, I dove deep into becoming a better

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teacher and musician. I studied psychology intensively

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and took a course on efficient piano practice

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that had a lasting impact on me. I even encouraged

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some of my students' families to join the course

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along with me, and we learned so much together.

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But until I came across Molly's book, Learn Faster,

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Perform Better, most of the books I read on performance

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and practice, especially those rooted in neuroscience,

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were geared toward athletes. While insightful,

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they often used sports terminology that I felt

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distant from my experience as a musician. So

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Molly's book was the first time I felt a neuroscience

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text was truly written for us, musicians and

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music educators, with language and examples that

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resonate directly with me. In this episode, we

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explore the science behind how our brains learn

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and why understanding it can dramatically transform

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the way we practice and perform. Molly unpacks

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science -backed strategies like interleaved learning

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and the power of breaks and why mental practice

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really works. We also talk about performance

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pressure, bad habits, burnout, and how to practice

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in a way that's not only more effective, but

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more joyful and sustainable. Before we begin,

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a quick update. Every Friday, or every other

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Friday, I post a new blog entry on South Stack,

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where I reflect on creativity, life as a classical

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musician, music educator, and behind -the -scenes

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stories from the piano pod. You can find it at

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thepianopod .substack .com. I'd love for you

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to join me there. Now let's get into this eye

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-opening conversation with Dr. Molly Gabrian.

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Please enjoy the show. You are listening to The

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Piano Pod, where we talk to the brightest minds

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in the industry about how they are bringing the

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piano into the future and thriving in a complex,

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ever -evolving world. Welcome to The Piano Pod,

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Molly. It's such a pleasure and honor to have

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you today. Thank you so much for having me. I'm

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really looking forward to this. Oh, yeah, same

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here. I've been really looking forward to it.

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So I first discovered your work. Thanks to one

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of our wonderful listeners who recommended your

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book, Learn Faster, Perform Better, A Musician's

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Guide to the New Science of Practicing. Excellent

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book. Thank you so much. Oh, yeah. The moment

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I started reading, I understood why, you know,

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they were so enthusiastic. And your book is truly

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an essential guide for musicians and music educators

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specifically alike. And what struck me the most

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was how aware it is to find a neuroscience theme

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or topic book written specifically for musicians.

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Yeah, I agree. And I mean, that's why I wrote

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it. Because that doesn't really exist. And I've

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been talking about these topics for decades at

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this point. Gosh, that's a long time. But people

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often ask, is there a book I can read about this?

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And I've always been like, well, not really,

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actually. So I was like, well, I need to write

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one. It's a really guideline to, or like an introductory

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thing for many musicians, what exactly is neuroscience

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and how we can use this information. to our daily

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practice at performance right right yeah exactly

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i mean i think as a teacher i think it's really

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important that we understand how our brains learn

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because that's what you're doing as a teacher

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right and as a musician we spend so much time

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on our own in the practice room, trying to improve.

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And if you understand how your brain works, then

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you can do that much more efficiently. And yeah,

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that's, I mean, I think that's all of our goals,

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right? Like practice efficiently and get better.

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Right, right. But you know, even then practice

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efficiently. I don't think a lot of musicians

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understand that. I agree. I agree. Because they,

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most of us believe in, I need to practice three

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hours back to back. Like lock ourselves in still

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that mindset. No. Yeah. Agreed. Yeah. And it's

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just, yeah. I mean the, the mindset, especially

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in classical music of. You need to practice as

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many hours as you can possibly cram in the day.

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And you need to practice for as long as you can

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possibly tolerate it, like three hours, four

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hours at a time. Right. And that's just like

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so not how the brain works. That's so not what

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the research shows. And so I'm very happy to

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help dispel those those myths because it's it's

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just not how it works. Oh, yeah. Well, thank

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you. And then I don't think even educators, educators,

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we don't know specifically how to help them help

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students. Right. Because we are not taught that

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way. Exactly. Right. And that also switching

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the gear means switching all the methods, which

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means it really takes a long time to readjust

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yourself. Right. Yeah, no, I agree. And I mean,

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I think that I think a lot of things I talk about.

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in my book are things that educators have intuited

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actually, when I do like presentations for, you

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know, music education. groups, teachers, a lot

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of teachers come up to me afterwards and they'll

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be like, you know, I thought that that was the

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case and I'm so glad to have science to back

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it up now. But there are also really sort of

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counterintuitive things like taking breaks and

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things like that, that people haven't intuited.

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And it's, I mean, of course we haven't, it's

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very counterintuitive. It doesn't, you know,

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really make any sense. And I like what you said

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about having to kind of. redo how you're teaching.

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I think that's true. And it can be sort of very

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daunting to realize, like, I've been teaching

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this way, or I've been telling my students this

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thing for all these years, for decades, you know,

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because that's what you were taught as a student,

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and you're going to pass it on to your students.

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And it's very daunting to realize, oh, my gosh,

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maybe that's not the best way, right? And like,

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I get that I've had to really rethink how I teach,

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how I practice. And for me, it's been a gradual

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process. It's not like I threw everything out

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one day and it's like, okay, brand new way to

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practice. Like it's sort of been a gradual incorporating

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these ideas into my own practice and my own teaching.

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And for me, that's, I think the easiest way to

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do it because it doesn't feel overwhelming that

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way. It's just like one new thing at a time.

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Yeah. Wow, I'm so thrilled that we can really

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dig deeper into that. But I truly enjoy the book

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because it was, once again, written for musicians.

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Because I've read, just like you, neuroscience

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-related books, but they're all spoken to athletes.

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Right. And I'm far remote from that. Same, same.

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So as I'm reading, it's interesting, right? And

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you can sort of relate to it, but in the middle,

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all the jargon. Yeah. I'm like, I don't understand

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all the terminologies that they use for sports.

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For example, baseball and then football. So I'm

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like, oh, I just can't keep going. Right. So

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I have to, you know, in the middle of the book,

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I have to close the book and then move on to

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something else. Does that make sense? Right.

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No, I agree. I mean, there's a lot of great information

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about there, but out there that. is not hasn't

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been applied specifically to musicians, right?

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Like it's applied to athletes, or it's applied

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sort of just like, generally to people. Because

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I mean, this does all this stuff does apply generally

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to people. And it applies to athletes. But it

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can be Yeah, the jargon can be really hard to

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get past. It's definitely a barrier to understanding.

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And it can be hard to see, okay, they're talking

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about you know, thus and such practice method

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in an athlete for, you know, their sports practices,

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it can be hard to see, okay, what does that mean,

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though, for me as a musician, because what we

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do can feel very different. And, you know, everything

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I talk about in my book, in terms of specific

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practice strategies for musicians, are things

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that I really had to, you know, take the research

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and be like, okay, what does this mean for me

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as a musician? and try it out on myself first.

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Like every single thing I talk about in the book,

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I have used for years in my own practicing to

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make sure it works, right? And I had to do a

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lot of experimenting, like, okay, the research

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says this. So let's try something in practice

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to see, you know, how it works. I tell my students

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that I experiment on them all the time, right?

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That, you know, something works for me in my

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own practice. And so I'll bring it into a lesson

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and see, like, does this work for this student?

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You know, and I'm very open with them in lessons.

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And very often I say, okay, let's do an experiment.

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I want you to try X, Y, Z, and we're going to

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see if this works, right? And so, yeah, I mean,

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it's been a lot of... thinking on my end of how

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does this actually apply to musicians, but then

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also experimenting and trying it out and just

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seeing like what works, what doesn't work. Yeah,

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yeah, yeah. Wow. So with that in mind, let's

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talk about neuroscience. So yes, there's a lot

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of myth around it. And then I asked my audience

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if they have any questions to you. And then I

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received several, but Some of the questions are

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sort of like a line between psychology and then

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neuroscience. They are all confused, right? Yeah.

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So let's make it clear. What exactly is neuroscience?

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Yeah. Neuroscience is the study of the brain

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and the nervous system and how the brain works

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and how the brain operates. Psychology is the

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study of like human behavior, basically, like

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how we are in the world and how we act. there

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is a lot more overlap between neuroscience and

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psychology than there used to be, right? And

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some of the things I talk about in my book are,

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I would say, fall into the realm of neuroscience.

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Like this is what your brain is doing when X,

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Y, Z. Other things very much fall into the category

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of psychology. It's not talking about brains

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at all. It's talking about human behavior. And

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then a lot of it is an overlap. It's like, okay,

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we see this behavior in humans. This is what's

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going on in the brain, like behind that behavior,

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essentially driving that behavior. Um, so yeah,

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they've become, there's a lot of overlap in the

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field, um, these days, but that is the distinction,

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the study of the brain study of behavior. Makes

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sense. Also, neurodiversity came up a lot in

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the question. So but can you clarify your area

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of expertise? Sure. Yeah. And also clarify two

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words, because I think a lot of people get confused

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between the word neurodiversity and neurodivergence.

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So humans are neurodiverse. That means our brains

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are all different from each other, just like

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we are hair color diverse, right? Everybody has

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a different color of hair. Everybody's brain

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is kind of different. So that's what neurodiversity

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means that we there's just. diversity in how

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our brains work. Neurodivergence is someone that's

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neurodivergent, has a brain that works in a different

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way from the majority, let's say. Just like people

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who have red hair have a different hair color

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than the majority of the population. And actually,

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when I wrote the book, I didn't know very much

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about neurodivergence. And usually when people

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use that word, they mean ADHD and autism, although

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many things fall under the umbrella of neurodivergence.

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I wrote the book in 2021. It takes a long time

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to get a book published, I discovered. Since

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that time, I have actually learned a lot more

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about specifically ADHD and autism. It is not

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my area of expertise. That being said, it is

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sort of... one of the next areas that I'm looking

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into very carefully for my own teaching, for

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my own understanding. I've had a lot of neurodivergent

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students. I've learned a lot from reading. I've

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done a lot of reading since 2021. I've learned

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a lot from personal experience, working with

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students, all sorts of things. So I know much

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more than when I wrote the book on neurodivergence,

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but it is not, I definitely wouldn't say I'm

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an expert. Wow. It's a really fascinating field.

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Yeah. still new. Yes. I mean, and there have

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been a lot of sort of misconceptions around specifically

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autism and ADHD, which is usually what people

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mean when they talk about neurodivergence because

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yeah, there's just been a lot of stereotypes

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around, okay, what, what does ADHD look like?

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What does autism look like? And we're, we're

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coming to realize that it's much broader and

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it's a much more, it's much more diverse than

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we, than we thought. It's not this narrow way

00:13:21.639 --> 00:13:25.539
of being. It's also for a long time, especially

00:13:25.539 --> 00:13:28.480
autism, been seen as this extremely negative

00:13:28.480 --> 00:13:31.879
thing that, you know, it's a real, you know,

00:13:31.879 --> 00:13:33.980
people always talking about curing autism, for

00:13:33.980 --> 00:13:36.240
instance. And it's not negative. It's just a

00:13:36.240 --> 00:13:38.539
difference. People who are autistic, their brains

00:13:38.539 --> 00:13:41.200
operate differently. Their brains take in information

00:13:41.200 --> 00:13:43.500
from the environment differently. It's not better.

00:13:43.559 --> 00:13:46.080
It's not worse. It's just different. And we're

00:13:46.080 --> 00:13:48.840
starting to realize that now. I think as a society,

00:13:48.899 --> 00:13:53.059
there's more. researchers looking into ADHD and

00:13:53.059 --> 00:13:56.080
autism in particular who are themselves neurodivergent.

00:13:56.139 --> 00:13:58.120
So they have like personal experience with that

00:13:58.120 --> 00:14:00.820
rather than neurotypical people coming in and

00:14:00.820 --> 00:14:03.639
sort of, you know, putting labels and putting

00:14:03.639 --> 00:14:05.700
things on neurodivergent people that doesn't

00:14:05.700 --> 00:14:07.779
line up with their actually lived experience.

00:14:08.279 --> 00:14:10.840
Well, thank you for clarifying. And then I think

00:14:10.840 --> 00:14:14.580
you, we have to have another episode talking

00:14:14.580 --> 00:14:16.740
about neurodivergent, right? Because there's

00:14:16.740 --> 00:14:22.090
a huge topic. But today, let's focus on the practicing

00:14:22.090 --> 00:14:25.070
the musical instrument part of neuroscience.

00:14:25.570 --> 00:14:30.429
Let's do it. Great. So as musicians, our greatest

00:14:30.429 --> 00:14:34.649
hope is to walk on stage, perform with the same

00:14:34.649 --> 00:14:37.549
confidence or consistency we experience in the

00:14:37.549 --> 00:14:40.789
practice room. And with all the hours we invest

00:14:40.789 --> 00:14:44.129
in preparing and we simply want our performance

00:14:44.129 --> 00:14:47.559
to reflect. that effort. But why is that so difficult?

00:14:47.659 --> 00:14:51.620
That's the million dollar question, right? I

00:14:51.620 --> 00:14:53.779
mean, I think there's so many things that go

00:14:53.779 --> 00:14:58.340
into preparing for performance. And something

00:14:58.340 --> 00:15:01.320
that I, I mean, the biggest game changer for

00:15:01.320 --> 00:15:04.980
me with bridging that gap of, okay, I sound fine

00:15:04.980 --> 00:15:06.299
in the practice room and I feel confident. And

00:15:06.299 --> 00:15:08.000
then I go out on stage and like, it's a disaster.

00:15:08.100 --> 00:15:10.080
It's like, what's happening? The biggest change

00:15:10.080 --> 00:15:12.899
for me and the thing that I've seen. be a really

00:15:12.899 --> 00:15:15.679
huge change for my students too, is interleaved

00:15:15.679 --> 00:15:17.960
practice, which I talk a lot about in the book,

00:15:17.980 --> 00:15:21.340
which is a specific way of practicing just in

00:15:21.340 --> 00:15:23.480
a nutshell, rather than focusing on one thing

00:15:23.480 --> 00:15:25.480
for a long period of time, that you're constantly

00:15:25.480 --> 00:15:29.000
switching between different things. Right, right.

00:15:29.899 --> 00:15:33.360
And on the face of it, that seems like a terrible

00:15:33.360 --> 00:15:35.720
way to practice. It just seems very chaotic.

00:15:35.879 --> 00:15:39.769
Just focus on one thing. Once you start to realize,

00:15:39.970 --> 00:15:42.070
okay, when you do interleaved practice and you're

00:15:42.070 --> 00:15:44.809
switching between different things, your brain

00:15:44.809 --> 00:15:47.570
has to practice the skill of flexibility. Your

00:15:47.570 --> 00:15:49.730
brain has to get good at, you know, you're practicing

00:15:49.730 --> 00:15:51.409
one thing and then suddenly you switch to another

00:15:51.409 --> 00:15:52.710
thing and you have to remember, wait, how do

00:15:52.710 --> 00:15:54.230
I practice this thing? And you have to kind of

00:15:54.230 --> 00:15:56.269
switch your mindset, that kind of flexibility,

00:15:56.450 --> 00:15:58.710
switching of your mindset, remembering how to.

00:15:59.019 --> 00:16:00.419
play different things when you're constantly

00:16:00.419 --> 00:16:02.659
switching. Those are skills that we really need

00:16:02.659 --> 00:16:04.779
on stage, right? Because music just keeps going,

00:16:04.860 --> 00:16:06.620
right? It doesn't stop. And you have to constantly

00:16:06.620 --> 00:16:09.440
be switching your mindset and knowing where you

00:16:09.440 --> 00:16:12.039
are and sort of remembering how to play what

00:16:12.039 --> 00:16:14.879
you want to play. Interleaved practice also helps

00:16:14.879 --> 00:16:17.539
you develop the skill of just being able to play

00:16:17.539 --> 00:16:20.379
it on the first try, which is harder to do, right?

00:16:20.580 --> 00:16:22.759
And that's something that often falls apart on

00:16:22.759 --> 00:16:25.899
stage. How many times have... all of us, gotten

00:16:25.899 --> 00:16:27.820
on stage, not played well, and been like, if

00:16:27.820 --> 00:16:29.379
I could just do that again, that would be so

00:16:29.379 --> 00:16:31.899
much better if I was given a second chance, right?

00:16:32.139 --> 00:16:34.700
Because it's much easier to do it a second time

00:16:34.700 --> 00:16:36.480
when you've just done it. It's really hard to

00:16:36.480 --> 00:16:38.940
just do it on the first try. And interleaved

00:16:38.940 --> 00:16:41.799
practice helps that skill too of just doing it.

00:16:41.919 --> 00:16:45.379
And so for me, preparing in a different way for

00:16:45.379 --> 00:16:49.179
playing on stage was a real game changer. I had

00:16:49.179 --> 00:16:52.179
never really thought before I learned about interleaved

00:16:52.179 --> 00:16:54.679
practice, I had never really... realize that

00:16:54.679 --> 00:16:57.539
just because I can play something doesn't necessarily

00:16:57.539 --> 00:17:00.600
mean I can perform it, that I have to practice

00:17:00.600 --> 00:17:04.339
performing it. I have to practice the mental

00:17:04.339 --> 00:17:07.599
skills that I'm going to need on stage. And that

00:17:07.599 --> 00:17:10.740
is a different thing than being able to play

00:17:10.740 --> 00:17:13.440
it. And that was a real light bulb moment for

00:17:13.440 --> 00:17:16.059
me, like, oh, wait, no wonder this isn't going

00:17:16.059 --> 00:17:18.420
well. I've been working on being able to play

00:17:18.420 --> 00:17:21.200
it. I've neglected all the mental skills that

00:17:21.200 --> 00:17:24.609
go into. actually performing something. And once

00:17:24.609 --> 00:17:26.309
I started to practice those mental skills, lo

00:17:26.309 --> 00:17:30.329
and behold, it felt better on stage. Right, right,

00:17:30.349 --> 00:17:35.109
right. Yeah, I totally understand that. So let's

00:17:35.109 --> 00:17:39.009
dig into interleaved practice. I'm familiar with

00:17:39.009 --> 00:17:42.750
the terminology. I actually took a course by

00:17:42.750 --> 00:17:47.210
Dr. Noah Kageyama. He has this amazing bulletproof

00:17:47.210 --> 00:17:50.529
musician. Yes, I've been a super fan of his for

00:17:50.529 --> 00:17:54.720
like Ever. Yeah. Excellent. And it's so detailed.

00:17:54.720 --> 00:17:58.000
And when I first tried that, it almost felt like

00:17:58.000 --> 00:18:01.559
it's still counterintuitive as a musician. Yeah.

00:18:01.599 --> 00:18:04.700
Yeah. It's really counterintuitive. Right. Because

00:18:04.700 --> 00:18:08.400
we're so used to. So is it wrong to do blocked

00:18:08.400 --> 00:18:10.779
practice, which means that this traditional,

00:18:10.839 --> 00:18:14.759
let's say half an hour for the same section and

00:18:14.759 --> 00:18:19.059
repeatedly. Right. I mean. I don't want to say

00:18:19.059 --> 00:18:20.900
wrong because I don't want to make people feel

00:18:20.900 --> 00:18:23.900
defensive. But the research is really clear that

00:18:23.900 --> 00:18:25.660
blocked practice, like doing one thing for half

00:18:25.660 --> 00:18:28.019
an hour, is really not effective. It's not nearly

00:18:28.019 --> 00:18:30.180
as effective as constantly switching between

00:18:30.180 --> 00:18:32.259
things. Because when you do one thing for half

00:18:32.259 --> 00:18:33.940
an hour, and I practiced that way for decades

00:18:33.940 --> 00:18:36.579
because that's how I was taught to practice,

00:18:36.680 --> 00:18:39.160
right? And it seems to make sense. But you get

00:18:39.160 --> 00:18:41.259
a very strong, psychologists, neuroscience calls

00:18:41.259 --> 00:18:43.519
it, call it an illusion of mastery. When you

00:18:43.519 --> 00:18:46.059
do one thing for half an hour, you get this very

00:18:46.059 --> 00:18:48.000
strong illusion that you have mastered. mastered

00:18:48.000 --> 00:18:49.380
it. And you're like, oh yeah, this feels good.

00:18:49.440 --> 00:18:50.980
This is great. This is great. And then you go

00:18:50.980 --> 00:18:53.039
to your lesson the next day, let's say for students

00:18:53.039 --> 00:18:55.160
and you totally bomb. I think everyone's had

00:18:55.160 --> 00:18:57.480
that experience, right? Of feeling great. And

00:18:57.480 --> 00:18:59.119
then going to their lesson and saying to their

00:18:59.119 --> 00:19:00.900
teacher, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. Like, I don't

00:19:00.900 --> 00:19:02.839
know what's going on right now. Like I promise

00:19:02.839 --> 00:19:04.519
I practiced this. I did so much better yesterday.

00:19:04.640 --> 00:19:07.279
I think that's a universal experience. And when

00:19:07.279 --> 00:19:10.240
that happens, that means you fell into that illusion

00:19:10.240 --> 00:19:12.779
of mastery that you get when you do. blocked

00:19:12.779 --> 00:19:17.500
practice. And so my practice has really changed

00:19:17.500 --> 00:19:20.119
over the years, even when something's new. Actually,

00:19:20.140 --> 00:19:22.539
the way I use interleave versus blocked practice

00:19:22.539 --> 00:19:24.900
is different based on whether something is new

00:19:24.900 --> 00:19:28.319
or like close to a performance. But I no longer

00:19:28.319 --> 00:19:32.740
do like half an hour of one thing, because the

00:19:32.740 --> 00:19:34.599
research is really clear that if you practice

00:19:34.599 --> 00:19:36.400
something for a bit, and then you take a break

00:19:36.400 --> 00:19:38.740
from that, and then you come back. later. And

00:19:38.740 --> 00:19:40.799
later could even be like two, three minutes later.

00:19:40.900 --> 00:19:43.259
It doesn't have to be like lots later. When the

00:19:43.259 --> 00:19:45.359
brain gets that reminder, when you've gone away

00:19:45.359 --> 00:19:47.099
and you come back and then you remind the brain,

00:19:47.140 --> 00:19:49.180
that's really powerful. And that's really helpful.

00:19:49.900 --> 00:19:53.460
for the brain. The analogy I use for this is

00:19:53.460 --> 00:19:55.640
like when you go to a party and you meet somebody

00:19:55.640 --> 00:19:57.380
for the first time, they introduce themselves

00:19:57.380 --> 00:19:59.400
and you promptly forget their name. Everybody

00:19:59.400 --> 00:20:02.440
does that. You're like, what is that person's

00:20:02.440 --> 00:20:05.059
name? Right. But if like, say, I don't know,

00:20:05.079 --> 00:20:07.319
15 minutes later, you hear them introduce themselves

00:20:07.319 --> 00:20:09.099
to someone else, then you're like, okay, okay,

00:20:09.180 --> 00:20:11.099
okay. Like you got it in your head now because

00:20:11.099 --> 00:20:15.000
you've been reminded, right? And so with practicing,

00:20:15.180 --> 00:20:18.640
like even if something's brand new and it's really

00:20:18.640 --> 00:20:20.720
hard and there's a lot of stuff I need to sort

00:20:20.720 --> 00:20:25.619
out, I'll practice it for like 10, 12 ish minutes,

00:20:25.700 --> 00:20:28.079
something like that. And then I'll take a little

00:20:28.079 --> 00:20:29.940
break and I'll practice something else for like

00:20:29.940 --> 00:20:32.200
two, three minutes, just little short something.

00:20:32.319 --> 00:20:33.980
And then I'll come back to that first thing,

00:20:34.019 --> 00:20:36.960
do more practice for like. 10, 12 minutes, and

00:20:36.960 --> 00:20:38.400
then do something else for three, four minutes.

00:20:38.519 --> 00:20:41.000
So it is, I mean, I practice in 30 minute blocks

00:20:41.000 --> 00:20:43.200
of time. In the end, most of that 30 minutes

00:20:43.200 --> 00:20:46.420
is probably that new thing that I'm starting,

00:20:46.480 --> 00:20:49.799
but I've broken it up with little snippets of

00:20:49.799 --> 00:20:54.500
something else. And with experimenting with interleaving

00:20:54.500 --> 00:20:56.599
and switching between things, it works a lot

00:20:56.599 --> 00:20:58.440
better. Things stick with me a lot better. And

00:20:58.440 --> 00:21:00.660
I don't fall into that illusion of mastery in

00:21:00.660 --> 00:21:02.509
that. It feels good. And then when I come back

00:21:02.509 --> 00:21:04.069
to it the next day, it's still there. I don't

00:21:04.069 --> 00:21:07.950
have to redo all my work. Wow. Even the new piece.

00:21:08.759 --> 00:21:12.140
Yeah. And like, so in the book, I talk, I talk

00:21:12.140 --> 00:21:14.279
a lot in the book with interleaved practice about

00:21:14.279 --> 00:21:16.759
using it to essentially test performance readiness.

00:21:16.859 --> 00:21:18.720
Right. And that's sort of a different way of

00:21:18.720 --> 00:21:21.259
using interleaved practice, which is really important

00:21:21.259 --> 00:21:23.240
and really powerful and works really, really

00:21:23.240 --> 00:21:28.140
well. When things are brand new, if you switch

00:21:28.140 --> 00:21:31.519
between things too often, that makes it too hard

00:21:31.519 --> 00:21:34.539
and your brain can't, everything's new. Right.

00:21:34.579 --> 00:21:36.660
And your brain like can't really hold onto it.

00:21:38.450 --> 00:21:41.490
using the party analogy with learning people's

00:21:41.490 --> 00:21:44.710
names, if you just learned 15 new people's names

00:21:44.710 --> 00:21:47.170
and you forgot all of them, and then you heard

00:21:47.170 --> 00:21:48.769
them introduce themselves later in the party,

00:21:48.829 --> 00:21:50.049
like you wouldn't be able to keep them straight

00:21:50.049 --> 00:21:51.970
because that's too many new people. But if you

00:21:51.970 --> 00:21:54.430
just have like one or two new people, like that

00:21:54.430 --> 00:21:56.589
would be fine. You can keep one or two new people

00:21:56.589 --> 00:22:00.670
straight. And so with new music, you have to,

00:22:00.750 --> 00:22:05.250
what I've found is You don't want to do too little

00:22:05.250 --> 00:22:07.769
amount of time on something new and interleave

00:22:07.769 --> 00:22:10.170
it with like 500 different things you're working

00:22:10.170 --> 00:22:12.630
on. And so like the example I just gave of like

00:22:12.630 --> 00:22:14.490
one thing for like 10 minutes and then a little

00:22:14.490 --> 00:22:15.910
snippet of something else and then come back

00:22:15.910 --> 00:22:17.390
to that one thing and then a little snippet of

00:22:17.390 --> 00:22:19.450
something else. I found that that works really

00:22:19.450 --> 00:22:21.690
well, that I have like a main thing that I'm

00:22:21.690 --> 00:22:23.970
working on in my practice and I'm interleaving

00:22:23.970 --> 00:22:26.329
it with a little other things. But because it's

00:22:26.329 --> 00:22:29.079
new. sort of focusing on that one thing, but

00:22:29.079 --> 00:22:31.660
giving myself little breaks so that I can then

00:22:31.660 --> 00:22:34.019
come back and give my brain a reminder. It works

00:22:34.019 --> 00:22:36.180
really well and it helps it stick a lot better.

00:22:36.460 --> 00:22:41.019
Wow. Then in the interleaved practice sessions,

00:22:41.079 --> 00:22:45.859
do you? still repeat things i do okay yeah i

00:22:45.859 --> 00:22:48.599
do yeah i do and it is like i talk early out

00:22:48.599 --> 00:22:51.039
of the book about the idea of like um reinforcing

00:22:51.039 --> 00:22:53.240
the right pathway right and things like that

00:22:53.240 --> 00:22:56.720
because in order to um we want to form habits

00:22:56.720 --> 00:22:59.160
in our playing right we want to form a habit

00:22:59.160 --> 00:23:00.980
for me as a string player of like playing in

00:23:00.980 --> 00:23:03.299
tune right and like you know making my string

00:23:03.299 --> 00:23:05.259
crossings clean and all that kind of stuff and

00:23:05.259 --> 00:23:08.539
like you do have to reinforce the right thing

00:23:08.539 --> 00:23:11.549
more than the wrong thing so it Sticks with you

00:23:11.549 --> 00:23:14.569
and you can do it again. And so, yeah, early

00:23:14.569 --> 00:23:17.869
on in learning, you do want to do repetitions

00:23:17.869 --> 00:23:20.890
to to solidify things. You want to make sure

00:23:20.890 --> 00:23:23.150
that if things don't go right in your repetitions,

00:23:23.150 --> 00:23:25.309
that you're sort of analyzing why it didn't go

00:23:25.309 --> 00:23:26.970
right. So you're not just like repeating it mindlessly

00:23:26.970 --> 00:23:29.390
because that's not going to do anything. But

00:23:29.390 --> 00:23:31.970
I mean, like what I used to do before I knew

00:23:31.970 --> 00:23:34.670
about interleaved practice is I would do like

00:23:34.670 --> 00:23:37.930
a bunch of repetitions on something. And then,

00:23:37.930 --> 00:23:39.990
you know, in one big block of like half an hour

00:23:39.990 --> 00:23:41.890
practice or something like that. And then I wouldn't

00:23:41.890 --> 00:23:45.049
see that passage again until the next day. And

00:23:45.049 --> 00:23:46.930
I would find that I couldn't play it anymore.

00:23:47.069 --> 00:23:49.430
That like, you know, OK, on day one, I did my

00:23:49.430 --> 00:23:51.150
repetitions. Great. OK, I thought I had it. And

00:23:51.150 --> 00:23:52.410
then I came back the next day and it was like

00:23:52.410 --> 00:23:56.029
I hadn't done anything. What I do now is like,

00:23:56.150 --> 00:23:58.529
OK, I'll do my repetitions. It's like, OK, this

00:23:58.529 --> 00:24:00.049
is feeling good. Then I'll go practice some other

00:24:00.049 --> 00:24:02.289
stuff and then I'll come back and I'll do more

00:24:02.289 --> 00:24:04.170
repetitions on that and go practice other stuff

00:24:04.170 --> 00:24:06.529
and come back. And it's it's the coming back.

00:24:07.200 --> 00:24:09.319
um several times like throughout a practice session

00:24:09.319 --> 00:24:10.980
or throughout the day to give your brain that

00:24:10.980 --> 00:24:12.940
reminder just like in the party when you hear

00:24:12.940 --> 00:24:15.920
someone introduce themselves again okay yes now

00:24:15.920 --> 00:24:18.640
i've got it um that's what really helps it stick

00:24:18.640 --> 00:24:20.799
in in the brain rather than just doing it once

00:24:20.799 --> 00:24:22.720
and like leaving it and assuming oh it's fine

00:24:23.230 --> 00:24:26.210
Yeah. And tell me more about this illusion of

00:24:26.210 --> 00:24:29.809
mastery. I remember that word. Yeah. I mean,

00:24:29.829 --> 00:24:32.470
the illusion of mastery really shows up. I think

00:24:32.470 --> 00:24:34.329
all of us as musicians have had this experience,

00:24:34.390 --> 00:24:36.670
too, of feeling like you practiced really well

00:24:36.670 --> 00:24:39.289
and then you go the next day to practice the

00:24:39.289 --> 00:24:42.049
same music. again, and you feel like you have

00:24:42.049 --> 00:24:44.609
to redo all of your work, that nothing really

00:24:44.609 --> 00:24:47.170
stuck with you from the previous day. Or like,

00:24:47.269 --> 00:24:49.369
you know, if you made 10 steps forward yesterday,

00:24:49.710 --> 00:24:51.849
you have to go eight steps back today. You like

00:24:51.849 --> 00:24:53.509
basically have to go back to the beginning and

00:24:53.509 --> 00:24:55.869
like do it all over again. And like, that's really

00:24:55.869 --> 00:24:58.509
frustrating. And it feels like, it just feels

00:24:58.509 --> 00:25:01.450
like a real waste of time. If you feel at the

00:25:01.450 --> 00:25:03.890
end of your practice session, like, okay, yes,

00:25:04.069 --> 00:25:06.609
I've got this. This feels really good. And then

00:25:06.609 --> 00:25:09.410
the next day you come back. and all your work

00:25:09.410 --> 00:25:12.170
is gone, you fell into the illusion of mastery

00:25:12.170 --> 00:25:14.109
the day before when you were like, yes, I have

00:25:14.109 --> 00:25:19.190
this. One thing that researchers who do this

00:25:19.190 --> 00:25:20.710
research on interleaved practice, something they

00:25:20.710 --> 00:25:24.109
say is that often people learning things are

00:25:24.109 --> 00:25:27.369
not very good at telling how much progress they

00:25:27.369 --> 00:25:29.990
made because they assess it based on how they

00:25:29.990 --> 00:25:32.410
feel at the end of the practice session rather

00:25:32.410 --> 00:25:35.529
than the next day. You can't. actually know how

00:25:35.529 --> 00:25:37.529
well you practiced until you come back to it

00:25:37.529 --> 00:25:39.970
the next day which is very weird that's very

00:25:39.970 --> 00:25:42.130
weird because it feels in the moment like okay

00:25:42.130 --> 00:25:43.950
yeah i can tell how you know this feels a lot

00:25:43.950 --> 00:25:47.430
better um i will say because i've been doing

00:25:47.430 --> 00:25:51.009
interleave practice for probably let's see over

00:25:51.009 --> 00:25:54.250
15 years now maybe longer than that um anyways

00:25:54.799 --> 00:25:58.380
I can now feel that illusion of mastery when

00:25:58.380 --> 00:26:01.039
I'm falling into it, because I've had enough

00:26:01.039 --> 00:26:02.799
experience with falling into the illusion of

00:26:02.799 --> 00:26:05.680
mastery. But and then the next day being like,

00:26:05.759 --> 00:26:07.880
oh, wait, shoot, that wasn't as good a practice

00:26:07.880 --> 00:26:09.779
as I thought, because all my work is undone.

00:26:10.140 --> 00:26:13.440
But also using interleaved practice and not getting

00:26:13.440 --> 00:26:15.319
that illusion of mastery and feeling in the moment

00:26:15.319 --> 00:26:17.769
like, oh, gosh, this is like. really hard and

00:26:17.769 --> 00:26:19.869
really challenging and coming back the next day

00:26:19.869 --> 00:26:21.650
and finding that all my work is still there and

00:26:21.650 --> 00:26:23.970
I can then, you know, move forward. So I've had

00:26:23.970 --> 00:26:26.809
enough experience with that, that I can now feel

00:26:26.809 --> 00:26:29.450
when I'm falling into the illusion of mastery

00:26:29.450 --> 00:26:31.589
and be like, wait, wait, wait, wait, tomorrow,

00:26:31.890 --> 00:26:33.369
all this is going to be gone. Like don't practice

00:26:33.369 --> 00:26:36.670
like this. Um, so because most of the time in

00:26:36.670 --> 00:26:38.490
the research, when people fall into that illusion,

00:26:38.670 --> 00:26:40.470
they're doing interleaved practice for the very

00:26:40.470 --> 00:26:42.849
first time, like in that study that they're there

00:26:42.849 --> 00:26:44.930
for, and they don't have, you know, years and

00:26:44.930 --> 00:26:46.880
years and years of experience with it. Right.

00:26:46.880 --> 00:26:51.119
Yeah. So then is this something that you would

00:26:51.119 --> 00:26:55.220
introduce to beginner students? Yeah. I mean,

00:26:55.240 --> 00:26:57.480
it's different how I talk about it with kids.

00:26:57.559 --> 00:27:00.980
So in general, with teaching kids, I make everything

00:27:00.980 --> 00:27:03.000
into a game. There's lots of research that show

00:27:03.000 --> 00:27:04.779
that people, people in general, but especially

00:27:04.779 --> 00:27:06.920
kids learn a lot better when things are embedded

00:27:06.920 --> 00:27:08.720
into games because it's fun. And then, you know,

00:27:08.720 --> 00:27:10.940
there's motivation for to win the game or whatever

00:27:10.940 --> 00:27:14.480
that means. And with interleaved practice, there's

00:27:14.480 --> 00:27:16.140
lots of ways that you can make it into games

00:27:16.140 --> 00:27:18.339
and kids love it. I mean, it's really fun to

00:27:18.339 --> 00:27:20.119
kind of switch between things and have things

00:27:20.119 --> 00:27:22.960
be unpredictable and not, you know, know what's

00:27:22.960 --> 00:27:26.200
going on. So like a really simple example of

00:27:26.200 --> 00:27:28.740
this with an absolute beginner, one of the very

00:27:28.740 --> 00:27:31.299
first things string player students learn is

00:27:31.299 --> 00:27:33.660
how to hold the bow. And it's kind of awkward

00:27:33.660 --> 00:27:35.500
and you need a lot of practice with holding the

00:27:35.500 --> 00:27:38.160
bow. And so one of the first things that I teach

00:27:38.160 --> 00:27:41.250
students in... when they, when they learn violin

00:27:41.250 --> 00:27:44.009
or viola is, you know, I teach them how to hold

00:27:44.009 --> 00:27:46.630
the bow and I make their bow hand for them on

00:27:46.630 --> 00:27:49.569
the bow. And I make a couple bow hands with them.

00:27:49.589 --> 00:27:51.250
And then we go do something else in the lesson.

00:27:51.269 --> 00:27:53.470
We do other stuff. And then maybe, I don't know.

00:27:53.720 --> 00:27:55.420
five ten minutes later we come back and I'd be

00:27:55.420 --> 00:27:57.220
like do you remember how to make a bow hold and

00:27:57.220 --> 00:27:59.440
we make another bow hold together and then you

00:27:59.440 --> 00:28:01.099
know we go do other stuff in the lesson and then

00:28:01.099 --> 00:28:02.680
one more time before the end of the lesson it's

00:28:02.680 --> 00:28:04.460
like okay let's see let's let's see how well

00:28:04.460 --> 00:28:06.240
we can make a bow hold so that's a really easy

00:28:06.240 --> 00:28:08.500
way to do interleave practice with the beginner

00:28:08.500 --> 00:28:10.599
is just come back to the same concept a couple

00:28:10.599 --> 00:28:13.880
times within the lesson yeah yeah and then if

00:28:13.880 --> 00:28:17.519
they at the end if they do a good job maybe We

00:28:17.519 --> 00:28:19.660
can reward them with a little sticker or something.

00:28:19.839 --> 00:28:23.460
Right. Exactly. Exactly. Or, you know, a lot

00:28:23.460 --> 00:28:25.500
of teachers will do things like they have like

00:28:25.500 --> 00:28:27.940
a wheel that they spin to choose like what scale

00:28:27.940 --> 00:28:31.079
their student plays or, you know, something like

00:28:31.079 --> 00:28:34.420
that. So games like that where it's sort of games

00:28:34.420 --> 00:28:36.859
of chance that determine like what are you going

00:28:36.859 --> 00:28:38.559
to play or how are you going to play it? Those

00:28:38.559 --> 00:28:41.619
are also can be examples of interleaved practice.

00:28:42.339 --> 00:28:44.500
So, yeah, making things into games is a great

00:28:44.500 --> 00:28:48.430
way to use it with kids. Okay. Makes sense. And

00:28:48.430 --> 00:28:52.630
then also keep them more focused rather than,

00:28:52.630 --> 00:28:55.250
you know, doing the sequence and the predictable.

00:28:55.369 --> 00:28:57.750
And then toward the end, I, some of the young

00:28:57.750 --> 00:29:00.529
ones, they start yawning and right. Yeah. That's

00:29:00.529 --> 00:29:03.029
a sign of a brain is telling them it's like enough

00:29:03.029 --> 00:29:04.710
is enough, right? Enough is enough. Exactly.

00:29:04.930 --> 00:29:08.410
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Even like,

00:29:08.509 --> 00:29:12.079
you know, I used to be a little. gym junkie you

00:29:12.079 --> 00:29:15.700
know and then but in those classes where they

00:29:15.700 --> 00:29:19.059
teach interval sessions rather than doing the

00:29:19.059 --> 00:29:23.619
same chore same movements for long long period

00:29:23.619 --> 00:29:26.720
of time and not only that exhaust physically

00:29:26.720 --> 00:29:29.980
muscles but also you know you're not using your

00:29:29.980 --> 00:29:31.980
brain because you're doing the same tasks so

00:29:31.980 --> 00:29:36.700
there is no improvement so i've done this sort

00:29:36.700 --> 00:29:40.019
of thing tabata exercise that is like 20 seconds

00:29:40.019 --> 00:29:42.940
of doing this hardcore stuff and then 10 seconds

00:29:42.940 --> 00:29:46.740
of off yeah you mentioned similar things in the

00:29:46.740 --> 00:29:50.000
not the interleaved section of the book but um

00:29:50.000 --> 00:29:54.240
somewhere in the maybe habit formation uh you

00:29:54.240 --> 00:29:57.980
know so where you talk about those spacing yeah

00:29:57.980 --> 00:30:01.630
yeah yeah yeah can you tell me Yeah, absolutely.

00:30:01.789 --> 00:30:04.210
And this is closely related to interleave practice,

00:30:04.450 --> 00:30:06.210
because when you're practicing one thing and

00:30:06.210 --> 00:30:07.430
you go practice something else, you are taking

00:30:07.430 --> 00:30:09.970
a break from that. Right, right, right. But yeah,

00:30:10.029 --> 00:30:13.109
there's a lot of research on the importance and

00:30:13.109 --> 00:30:15.690
the power of breaks of taking a break. And your

00:30:15.690 --> 00:30:18.549
example of exercise of 20 minutes, 20 minutes,

00:30:18.630 --> 00:30:23.009
20 seconds on 10 minutes off is is perfect. And

00:30:23.009 --> 00:30:27.109
basically, the way that the brain works, and

00:30:27.109 --> 00:30:29.630
actually, I use an analogy for exercising of

00:30:29.630 --> 00:30:31.049
muscles. Let's start with that, actually, because

00:30:31.049 --> 00:30:33.269
often people have experience with like building

00:30:33.269 --> 00:30:34.829
strength and building muscles. I think anybody

00:30:34.829 --> 00:30:36.630
who has ever done any kind of strength training.

00:30:37.180 --> 00:30:40.200
knows that you don't actually build muscle. Your

00:30:40.200 --> 00:30:42.460
muscles don't get stronger in the workout itself,

00:30:42.700 --> 00:30:45.319
right? Like you don't get stronger while you

00:30:45.319 --> 00:30:47.039
are lifting the weights. You're creating micro

00:30:47.039 --> 00:30:49.700
tears in your muscle and your body repairs those

00:30:49.700 --> 00:30:51.480
micro tears on your rest day, which is why you

00:30:51.480 --> 00:30:53.339
don't do like leg day two days in a row, right?

00:30:53.420 --> 00:30:56.019
Because your legs need a day off to rest and

00:30:56.019 --> 00:30:57.900
repair themselves. And when the muscle repairs

00:30:57.900 --> 00:31:00.380
itself, it repairs itself stronger. And that's

00:31:00.380 --> 00:31:03.950
how you actually like build muscle. So with the

00:31:03.950 --> 00:31:05.910
brain, you don't create micro tears in your brain

00:31:05.910 --> 00:31:08.769
when you're exercising, but essentially you give

00:31:08.769 --> 00:31:10.410
input to your brain while you're practicing,

00:31:10.470 --> 00:31:12.190
just like you give input to the muscles when

00:31:12.190 --> 00:31:15.470
you're exercising. And it's during breaks that

00:31:15.470 --> 00:31:18.230
the brain actually does something with that information.

00:31:18.269 --> 00:31:20.769
It continues to process it. The brain also has

00:31:20.769 --> 00:31:23.670
to make actual physical changes to itself in

00:31:23.670 --> 00:31:26.390
order for you to learn something new or get to

00:31:26.390 --> 00:31:29.400
a higher level of. playing or whatever you're

00:31:29.400 --> 00:31:32.859
doing. And the brain really needs you to take

00:31:32.859 --> 00:31:35.000
a break in order to make those physical changes.

00:31:35.079 --> 00:31:36.880
So another analogy I use is road construction,

00:31:37.079 --> 00:31:39.099
right? If they need to fix the potholes on the

00:31:39.099 --> 00:31:40.579
road, they can't have people driving on the road

00:31:40.579 --> 00:31:41.779
when they're trying to fix it. They have to shut

00:31:41.779 --> 00:31:43.759
it down, fix the road, and then open it back

00:31:43.759 --> 00:31:46.039
up. And so it's very similar in our brains. When

00:31:46.039 --> 00:31:48.319
we take a break, then our brain can go in with

00:31:48.319 --> 00:31:49.900
their construction crew, right? Make the physical

00:31:49.900 --> 00:31:52.920
changes necessary. And then, you know, after

00:31:52.920 --> 00:31:55.319
the break, it will feel a lot better. So we as

00:31:55.319 --> 00:31:59.230
musicians tend not to take. enough enough breaks

00:31:59.230 --> 00:32:02.210
um and so we're really hampering our brain's

00:32:02.210 --> 00:32:04.950
ability to do the processing and to do the actual

00:32:04.950 --> 00:32:08.809
physical changing that it needs but breaks sound

00:32:08.809 --> 00:32:12.250
really scary to many musicians yeah you know

00:32:12.250 --> 00:32:15.690
what i mean i totally do so a couple a couple

00:32:15.690 --> 00:32:18.470
more things about breaks one i think one of the

00:32:18.809 --> 00:32:22.250
easiest and least scary ways to incorporate breaks

00:32:22.250 --> 00:32:25.069
is to start with micro breaks. So breaks of 10

00:32:25.069 --> 00:32:27.369
to 15 seconds, because that's really short, right?

00:32:27.690 --> 00:32:30.089
There's a study that I talk about that came out

00:32:30.089 --> 00:32:34.009
in 2021, so relatively recently, where they...

00:32:34.430 --> 00:32:37.390
They had people learn like a button press sequence

00:32:37.390 --> 00:32:39.289
on a computer keyboard and they would practice

00:32:39.289 --> 00:32:41.390
it for 10 seconds and then they take a 10 second

00:32:41.390 --> 00:32:42.829
micro break and then they practice it for 10

00:32:42.829 --> 00:32:45.269
seconds, 10 second micro break and so on. And

00:32:45.269 --> 00:32:48.430
what they found was when they when they analyzed

00:32:48.430 --> 00:32:51.369
the data, the vast majority of the improvement

00:32:51.369 --> 00:32:53.730
was due to the breaks, those little micro breaks,

00:32:53.769 --> 00:32:57.250
not the actual practicing. They also had people

00:32:57.250 --> 00:33:00.410
hooked up to brain scanner while they were. doing

00:33:00.410 --> 00:33:02.410
all of this. And they found that during those

00:33:02.410 --> 00:33:04.029
micro breaks, even though people were just sitting

00:33:04.029 --> 00:33:05.869
there and like not doing anything, the brain

00:33:05.869 --> 00:33:08.509
was continuing to replay what they had just practiced

00:33:08.509 --> 00:33:11.089
20 times faster. So the brain was doing a super

00:33:11.089 --> 00:33:13.150
fast forward replay of it. So the brain was continuing

00:33:13.150 --> 00:33:16.470
to process. And then after that break, they would

00:33:16.470 --> 00:33:18.930
always come back at a higher level than before

00:33:18.930 --> 00:33:24.150
they were at the break. And so I didn't know

00:33:24.150 --> 00:33:25.950
about this before 2021 because that's when the

00:33:25.950 --> 00:33:28.309
study came out. But since then, I have been using

00:33:28.309 --> 00:33:30.529
micro breaks a lot in my practicing. So we were

00:33:30.529 --> 00:33:33.269
talking about doing repetitions. I will, rather

00:33:33.269 --> 00:33:36.589
than doing a big block of repetitions, I will

00:33:36.589 --> 00:33:40.470
do two or three repetitions on something and

00:33:40.470 --> 00:33:42.690
then take a micro break. I get a sip of water.

00:33:42.750 --> 00:33:44.250
I always practice in front of a window. So I'll

00:33:44.250 --> 00:33:46.710
look outside and spy on my neighbor, see what's

00:33:46.710 --> 00:33:50.029
going on in the neighborhood, and then do two,

00:33:50.109 --> 00:33:53.640
three more. repetitions. And so that has made

00:33:53.640 --> 00:33:56.019
a huge difference, actually, just those 10, 10,

00:33:56.079 --> 00:33:58.240
15 second micro breaks in between repetitions.

00:33:58.480 --> 00:34:02.460
It really, I don't know, I can feel how much

00:34:02.460 --> 00:34:05.759
faster things get solidified for me, I can feel

00:34:05.759 --> 00:34:08.579
how much better they stick with me. Over time,

00:34:08.719 --> 00:34:11.780
it's really been amazing. It can be hard to remember

00:34:11.780 --> 00:34:15.940
to do the micro breaks. But that's to me, that's

00:34:15.940 --> 00:34:18.559
like the least scary way because they're so short.

00:34:21.039 --> 00:34:23.420
But early on in the pandemic, I mean, I'd known

00:34:23.420 --> 00:34:25.320
this research about breaks for a long time, but

00:34:25.320 --> 00:34:27.440
I was too scared to try it. Right. Because like,

00:34:27.500 --> 00:34:30.139
if I'm going to take a week, a day or heaven

00:34:30.139 --> 00:34:32.159
forbid, like a week off from something like that

00:34:32.159 --> 00:34:34.519
sound, no, I'm not going to do that. Right. And

00:34:34.519 --> 00:34:37.210
like. But early on in the pandemic, all concerts

00:34:37.210 --> 00:34:39.590
were canceled, right? Nobody had anything. And

00:34:39.590 --> 00:34:41.989
I realized like, okay, this is the perfect opportunity

00:34:41.989 --> 00:34:44.170
to experiment with this because if it doesn't

00:34:44.170 --> 00:34:46.570
work and it backfires and I'm not prepared, it

00:34:46.570 --> 00:34:48.369
doesn't matter because I don't have any concerts

00:34:48.369 --> 00:34:51.409
anyway. So I did this huge experiment on myself.

00:34:51.610 --> 00:34:54.369
Like, I think it was like April through June

00:34:54.369 --> 00:34:58.409
or July, 2020. So very early on in the pandemic,

00:34:58.409 --> 00:35:01.469
essentially experimenting with taking days and

00:35:01.469 --> 00:35:05.340
weeks off from. Not practicing in general, but

00:35:05.340 --> 00:35:07.480
like particular passages. I'd practice them for

00:35:07.480 --> 00:35:09.960
several days and then I'd take days or weeks

00:35:09.960 --> 00:35:13.000
off from it. And I am never, ever going back

00:35:13.000 --> 00:35:14.699
to how I used to practice, which was trying to

00:35:14.699 --> 00:35:17.239
do everything every day. The breaks just work

00:35:17.239 --> 00:35:21.099
so much better. I can learn so much faster. Things

00:35:21.099 --> 00:35:23.239
stick with me so much better. It was kind of...

00:35:23.599 --> 00:35:25.019
I guess I shouldn't have been surprised because

00:35:25.019 --> 00:35:27.440
I had read the research and I experienced exactly

00:35:27.440 --> 00:35:30.159
what the research said, but it truly felt like

00:35:30.159 --> 00:35:32.719
this magical thing I had discovered of, wait,

00:35:32.719 --> 00:35:35.559
if I don't practice, I get better faster. But

00:35:35.559 --> 00:35:37.920
that's, that's exactly what happens. Yeah. But

00:35:37.920 --> 00:35:40.280
it's almost like, yeah, like, help me sign me

00:35:40.280 --> 00:35:43.840
up because I, I'm all about that because it's

00:35:43.840 --> 00:35:49.239
brutal. Like practice becomes such a, you know,

00:35:49.239 --> 00:35:52.519
tour. Yeah. No wonder students don't like to

00:35:52.519 --> 00:35:57.460
practice if it's so painful. Right. If we allow

00:35:57.460 --> 00:36:00.079
ourselves to take a little break, mini break.

00:36:00.260 --> 00:36:04.480
Right. But sounds like so you mentioned about

00:36:04.480 --> 00:36:08.000
those repeats. You do whatever the passage one,

00:36:08.199 --> 00:36:10.739
two, three and take a mini break and come back

00:36:10.739 --> 00:36:14.599
two more or three more. However, now those practice

00:36:14.599 --> 00:36:18.300
each practice segment has to be sort of perfect

00:36:18.300 --> 00:36:23.769
or. Yeah. So, I mean, what I'm repeating depends

00:36:23.769 --> 00:36:26.010
on what I'm working on. So sometimes it's not

00:36:26.010 --> 00:36:27.750
a passage. Sometimes it's just like two notes

00:36:27.750 --> 00:36:29.449
if I'm working on a shift and I'm trying to get

00:36:29.449 --> 00:36:32.530
those two notes in tune. Right. Maybe it's if

00:36:32.530 --> 00:36:34.170
we're talking about a passage, maybe there's

00:36:34.170 --> 00:36:36.030
like a lot of little things within the passage

00:36:36.030 --> 00:36:38.170
that I have sorted out and I've done repetitions

00:36:38.170 --> 00:36:40.710
on each little detail in that passage using the

00:36:40.710 --> 00:36:42.090
micro breaks the way that we were just talking

00:36:42.090 --> 00:36:44.730
about. And now I want to see, OK, can I play

00:36:44.730 --> 00:36:47.639
this whole phrase with. everything that I've

00:36:47.639 --> 00:36:49.280
worked on. I've worked on all the little steps.

00:36:49.360 --> 00:36:51.599
I know I can do them individually. I know I can

00:36:51.599 --> 00:36:53.079
play the first half of the phrase fine. And I

00:36:53.079 --> 00:36:54.400
know I can play the second half of the phrase

00:36:54.400 --> 00:36:55.940
fine. Now let's put the whole thing together

00:36:55.940 --> 00:36:58.360
and make sure I can do it. And then sort of doing

00:36:58.360 --> 00:37:00.960
repetitions on that. But, and also being very

00:37:00.960 --> 00:37:04.880
clear with myself, like what counts as a successful

00:37:04.880 --> 00:37:09.440
repetition, right? So, and I think, especially

00:37:09.440 --> 00:37:11.659
with kids, that's, that's really important as

00:37:11.659 --> 00:37:14.340
a teacher to be like, okay, what actually counts?

00:37:14.400 --> 00:37:17.579
What are we working on? right now, you know?

00:37:17.579 --> 00:37:19.599
And so for instance, if I'm working on a shift,

00:37:19.780 --> 00:37:22.280
maybe what counts is that I get the note in tune

00:37:22.280 --> 00:37:24.699
with no adjusting, but I'm not concerned at all

00:37:24.699 --> 00:37:27.119
with rhythm right now. I'm just trying to play

00:37:27.119 --> 00:37:30.320
in tune, you know? And so it doesn't matter what

00:37:30.320 --> 00:37:32.659
the speed is or whether the rhythm is right.

00:37:32.880 --> 00:37:34.900
Once I can play it in tune, okay, maybe now my

00:37:34.900 --> 00:37:37.440
next step is to do it in rhythm or to do it,

00:37:37.440 --> 00:37:39.019
you know, closer to the speed or something like

00:37:39.019 --> 00:37:40.579
that. So just being clear with yourself, like

00:37:40.579 --> 00:37:45.070
what counts right now. Okay. Okay. Makes sense.

00:37:45.230 --> 00:37:49.349
Yeah. But in order for students to understand

00:37:49.349 --> 00:37:53.070
what counts, so they definitely need a constant

00:37:53.070 --> 00:37:58.090
monitor and instructions from whether that is

00:37:58.090 --> 00:38:01.130
teacher or parents. Right. Exactly. And with

00:38:01.130 --> 00:38:03.170
students, I mean, I do this with them in the

00:38:03.170 --> 00:38:05.210
lesson and I'm always very clear with them, like,

00:38:05.230 --> 00:38:07.409
okay, I mean, we do it as a game, but you know,

00:38:07.429 --> 00:38:09.889
I always say to them, okay, it's, it only counts

00:38:09.889 --> 00:38:13.239
if. X, Y, Z thing is in place. You know, whatever

00:38:13.239 --> 00:38:15.599
it is that I, as the teacher, think that, you

00:38:15.599 --> 00:38:18.639
know, they need to work on. And sometimes it's

00:38:18.639 --> 00:38:20.780
sort of layering of things. Like, okay, it counts

00:38:20.780 --> 00:38:22.900
this time if, you know, your bow hand is good.

00:38:23.449 --> 00:38:25.090
Now it only counts if your bow hand is good and

00:38:25.090 --> 00:38:26.369
your posture is good or something like that.

00:38:26.369 --> 00:38:28.789
You sort of layer things on. But then with practicing

00:38:28.789 --> 00:38:30.969
at home, you know, I'll tell them, OK, I want

00:38:30.969 --> 00:38:33.230
you to play this game at home with your practice

00:38:33.230 --> 00:38:34.869
parent, whoever that is or whoever's practicing

00:38:34.869 --> 00:38:38.809
with them. And I am very clear with, OK, this

00:38:38.809 --> 00:38:40.730
is what counts when you're playing the game at

00:38:40.730 --> 00:38:43.269
home. If you do this, it counts. But if you don't

00:38:43.269 --> 00:38:45.329
do this, it doesn't count. So students have a

00:38:45.329 --> 00:38:47.409
really clear metric. And depending on the age

00:38:47.409 --> 00:38:49.559
of the student, like. It will be a conversation

00:38:49.559 --> 00:38:51.380
between me and them, like, what do you think

00:38:51.380 --> 00:38:53.599
should count when you do this, you know, at home?

00:38:54.039 --> 00:38:56.059
Helping them develop that skill of sort of self

00:38:56.059 --> 00:38:58.880
-assessment and being able to tell if they're

00:38:58.880 --> 00:39:00.619
playing something well or not. And usually students

00:39:00.619 --> 00:39:03.179
want to be way more strict with themselves than,

00:39:03.179 --> 00:39:06.800
you know, I would necessarily want to be at that

00:39:06.800 --> 00:39:08.019
stage because they want to challenge themselves,

00:39:08.139 --> 00:39:10.440
which is awesome, you know, to see that, that

00:39:10.440 --> 00:39:12.940
they want to sort of hold themselves to that.

00:39:13.630 --> 00:39:15.570
that higher standard. And so sometimes it's like,

00:39:15.630 --> 00:39:17.610
okay, well maybe the first step of your game

00:39:17.610 --> 00:39:19.349
is this. And then the second step of your game

00:39:19.349 --> 00:39:21.349
is this. Cause if you do too much at once, then

00:39:21.349 --> 00:39:23.349
it's going to overload the brain and then everybody's

00:39:23.349 --> 00:39:25.409
going to be frustrated. Wow. This is a really

00:39:25.409 --> 00:39:28.849
groundbreaking of practicing from interleaved

00:39:28.849 --> 00:39:35.269
practice to taking breaks. So in terms of breaks,

00:39:35.570 --> 00:39:40.960
you also mentioned about sleep. Yes. And interesting

00:39:40.960 --> 00:39:44.619
how this the sleep pattern, how it goes. There's

00:39:44.619 --> 00:39:47.980
like a period where we dream and then that's

00:39:47.980 --> 00:39:51.679
when we are blinking. The eyes are moving around.

00:39:52.099 --> 00:39:56.699
OK, but yes, this is back of eyes. And then but

00:39:56.699 --> 00:40:00.260
those period where you're not dreaming and that's

00:40:00.260 --> 00:40:02.300
when you are actually observing everything you

00:40:02.300 --> 00:40:04.599
learn, something like that. Am I correct? Well,

00:40:04.639 --> 00:40:06.960
the brain does a lot of stuff when we're sleeping.

00:40:07.079 --> 00:40:10.559
And one of the things it does is it kind of consolidates

00:40:10.559 --> 00:40:13.340
and continues to process what we've learned during

00:40:13.340 --> 00:40:18.789
the day. Different types of information are kind

00:40:18.789 --> 00:40:21.309
of handled differently in the brain, like muscle

00:40:21.309 --> 00:40:24.710
memory information, how you do something sort

00:40:24.710 --> 00:40:28.050
of handled differently than what's called declarative

00:40:28.050 --> 00:40:29.969
memory information. So like memory for facts

00:40:29.969 --> 00:40:31.650
or something. So if you learned like a bunch

00:40:31.650 --> 00:40:33.170
of facts in school and then you went to your

00:40:33.170 --> 00:40:36.329
piano lesson and you learned a new skill on piano,

00:40:36.409 --> 00:40:38.469
those are different skills in the brain and the

00:40:38.469 --> 00:40:40.030
brain kind of handles them a little bit differently

00:40:40.030 --> 00:40:43.429
and it consolidates and processes them differently

00:40:43.429 --> 00:40:47.369
during. sleep. It's not really important really

00:40:47.369 --> 00:40:49.170
what the differences are. The important thing

00:40:49.170 --> 00:40:50.409
is getting enough sleep is really important.

00:40:50.550 --> 00:40:53.409
So the brain can process everything fully and

00:40:53.409 --> 00:40:56.809
sort of consolidate everything fully. And we

00:40:56.809 --> 00:41:00.610
know that when people learn something, say on

00:41:00.610 --> 00:41:03.289
day one, and they get enough sleep that night,

00:41:03.449 --> 00:41:06.190
they'll be at a much higher level of skill the

00:41:06.190 --> 00:41:08.010
next day. There's this huge jump in performance

00:41:08.010 --> 00:41:09.710
the next day, which is so cool. It's like magic.

00:41:09.789 --> 00:41:11.550
Like you just sleep and now you're suddenly like

00:41:11.550 --> 00:41:14.429
way better. Whereas if people don't get enough

00:41:14.429 --> 00:41:16.949
sleep, you don't sort of get that huge jump and

00:41:16.949 --> 00:41:20.389
you're and you're learning is sort of stopped,

00:41:20.670 --> 00:41:22.670
essentially, that you that you don't continue

00:41:22.670 --> 00:41:25.670
to to move forward. You see the same thing with

00:41:25.670 --> 00:41:28.469
naps, too, that, you know, if someone learned

00:41:28.469 --> 00:41:31.230
something and then takes a nap, they'll get a

00:41:31.230 --> 00:41:33.250
boost in their performance following the nap

00:41:33.250 --> 00:41:35.190
versus just like, you know, staying awake and

00:41:35.190 --> 00:41:37.409
going about their going about their day. Wow.

00:41:37.750 --> 00:41:42.760
So are you all for naps? I am, although I never,

00:41:42.840 --> 00:41:46.139
ever take a nap myself because most of the time

00:41:46.139 --> 00:41:47.960
it's not like, what am I going to do? Curl up

00:41:47.960 --> 00:41:50.059
on the floor of my studio at school? Like, you

00:41:50.059 --> 00:41:51.840
know, most of the time it's not really practical

00:41:51.840 --> 00:41:55.280
to take a nap. But some people love napping and

00:41:55.280 --> 00:41:58.099
they frequently take naps and, you know, they

00:41:58.099 --> 00:42:00.440
kind of feel. bad about it or like they're being

00:42:00.440 --> 00:42:02.239
lazy. And that's like the total opposite. Naps

00:42:02.239 --> 00:42:04.380
are great. If you if anybody listening is a napper,

00:42:04.500 --> 00:42:07.099
like keep keep taking naps or if you wish you

00:42:07.099 --> 00:42:09.340
could nap, you just felt like, oh, that's lazy.

00:42:09.460 --> 00:42:11.059
I shouldn't take a nap. Like, no, go take a nap.

00:42:11.139 --> 00:42:13.039
It's it's it's a really, really, really great

00:42:13.039 --> 00:42:16.000
thing to do, especially after practicing. Really?

00:42:16.079 --> 00:42:19.179
Wow. You know, honestly, I do sometimes take

00:42:19.179 --> 00:42:23.039
naps, short ones, just because I'm a really early

00:42:23.039 --> 00:42:27.449
morning person. I mean, I wake up. Really early,

00:42:27.510 --> 00:42:31.730
like 5, 530. Then, you know, afterwards, then

00:42:31.730 --> 00:42:36.570
by the time after lunch hit, I've been working

00:42:36.570 --> 00:42:40.349
for a long time. Yeah. I mean, 6 a .m. till 12

00:42:40.349 --> 00:42:43.829
p .m. Six hours. I've already worked, worked

00:42:43.829 --> 00:42:48.909
for something. Right. Then I need a little booster.

00:42:49.170 --> 00:42:52.309
Definitely. I don't want to drink coffee. No.

00:42:52.309 --> 00:42:53.849
Yeah. Go take a nap. That's a great thing to

00:42:53.849 --> 00:42:57.329
do. Yeah. So what I do is not on the bed because

00:42:57.329 --> 00:43:02.530
I just want a little quick. Yeah. Booster. So

00:43:02.530 --> 00:43:06.269
maybe on the couch or not even laying down, but

00:43:06.269 --> 00:43:08.889
just to close my eyes. And yeah, but it really

00:43:08.889 --> 00:43:12.239
helps me. It really helps. And what the research

00:43:12.239 --> 00:43:15.119
has shown is like even very short naps are really

00:43:15.119 --> 00:43:17.320
beneficial. And even if you don't fall asleep,

00:43:17.420 --> 00:43:19.599
even if you just sit with your eyes closed, that's

00:43:19.599 --> 00:43:23.340
really beneficial too. Like you've discovered,

00:43:23.480 --> 00:43:25.519
like it gives you sort of an energy boost, right?

00:43:25.599 --> 00:43:28.139
But it really helps your brain and it enhances

00:43:28.139 --> 00:43:30.679
learning. So yeah, that's a great thing to do.

00:43:31.099 --> 00:43:35.719
Wow. I'm glad I confessed. Yeah. But I don't

00:43:35.719 --> 00:43:37.920
have to feel ashamed, right? No, don't feel ashamed.

00:43:38.039 --> 00:43:42.920
It's like the perfect thing to do. The PianoPod

00:43:42.920 --> 00:43:47.820
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00:44:31.940 --> 00:44:35.119
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00:44:40.480 --> 00:44:44.420
on the piano pod let's talk about habit let's

00:44:44.420 --> 00:44:47.480
talk about it why is it so hard to get rid of

00:44:47.480 --> 00:44:52.650
the bad habits yes yeah exactly so Bad habits,

00:44:52.750 --> 00:44:54.409
I think we've all experienced this as musicians,

00:44:54.530 --> 00:44:56.929
right? As teachers helping students get rid of

00:44:56.929 --> 00:44:58.650
bad habits and ourselves getting rid of bad habits.

00:44:58.949 --> 00:45:01.409
And there's a couple of reasons why bad habits

00:45:01.409 --> 00:45:05.570
are so hard to get rid of. One is that when you've

00:45:05.570 --> 00:45:08.730
done something a lot, the pathway in the brain

00:45:08.730 --> 00:45:11.489
that kind of supports that. skill or that behavior

00:45:11.489 --> 00:45:14.030
has become really well myelinated. I think a

00:45:14.030 --> 00:45:16.210
lot of people have heard about myelination, but

00:45:16.210 --> 00:45:20.110
basically the neurons that are involved in communicating

00:45:20.110 --> 00:45:21.909
for you to do that skill, they get wrapped up

00:45:21.909 --> 00:45:23.630
in something called myelin, which is just a layer

00:45:23.630 --> 00:45:26.210
of fat that allows the neurons to communicate

00:45:26.210 --> 00:45:29.929
more effectively, essentially. And when a pathway

00:45:29.929 --> 00:45:32.389
in your brain is myelinated, it feels really

00:45:32.389 --> 00:45:36.369
automatic to do that skill. So I often say like,

00:45:36.409 --> 00:45:39.420
especially for you know, anybody who is literate,

00:45:39.420 --> 00:45:42.179
writing your name is very automatic. You don't

00:45:42.179 --> 00:45:43.559
have to think about how to write your name. You

00:45:43.559 --> 00:45:44.960
don't have to think about how to make the letters.

00:45:45.219 --> 00:45:47.760
But if you have any like small children in your

00:45:47.760 --> 00:45:50.019
lives who are just learning how to write, you

00:45:50.019 --> 00:45:51.360
know, it's really hard for them. They really

00:45:51.360 --> 00:45:53.019
have to concentrate on it. They might make the

00:45:53.019 --> 00:45:56.539
letters backwards, right? Um, because that pathway

00:45:56.539 --> 00:45:58.559
is not myelinated for them yet. So it's a really

00:45:58.559 --> 00:46:00.940
sort of effortful, conscious process that they

00:46:00.940 --> 00:46:03.179
really have to think about. But once that pathway

00:46:03.179 --> 00:46:04.900
is myelinated, you just do it. You don't even

00:46:04.900 --> 00:46:06.699
think you just, you know, it'd be kind of ridiculous

00:46:06.699 --> 00:46:08.880
as an adult to think, wait, how do I make this

00:46:08.880 --> 00:46:10.400
letter? Right? Like you don't have to do that.

00:46:10.699 --> 00:46:14.500
And so when you have a bad habit, it's myelinated,

00:46:14.559 --> 00:46:16.460
just like the pathway that's been myelinated

00:46:16.460 --> 00:46:20.230
for writing your name. And so. I mean, can you

00:46:20.230 --> 00:46:22.469
imagine writing your name and someday somebody

00:46:22.469 --> 00:46:24.230
comes in and tells you you've been making one

00:46:24.230 --> 00:46:27.570
of the letters backwards your entire life? And

00:46:27.570 --> 00:46:30.530
you have to learn how to not do that. Like you

00:46:30.530 --> 00:46:33.110
can feel how hard that would be to suddenly make

00:46:33.110 --> 00:46:35.190
a letter a different way, even if it was not

00:46:35.190 --> 00:46:37.969
difficult to do it the other way. You'd really

00:46:37.969 --> 00:46:39.429
have to think about it because you just automatically

00:46:39.429 --> 00:46:41.670
write your name how you'd always written your

00:46:41.670 --> 00:46:45.269
name. And so with bad habits, they just they

00:46:45.269 --> 00:46:48.329
just happen automatically, like without thinking

00:46:48.329 --> 00:46:51.190
about it. And so when you're trying to create

00:46:51.190 --> 00:46:53.130
a new habit, it can feel very frustrating and

00:46:53.130 --> 00:46:55.670
kind of arduous because you have to think very,

00:46:55.730 --> 00:46:58.750
very consciously about the new habit. Just like

00:46:58.750 --> 00:47:01.170
if you had to suddenly make a letter totally

00:47:01.170 --> 00:47:02.730
different than you'd ever made it before, you'd

00:47:02.730 --> 00:47:05.150
really have to think about that. So you didn't

00:47:05.150 --> 00:47:08.050
do it the other way by accident. And because

00:47:08.050 --> 00:47:10.710
we're so used to our bad habit, it doesn't feel

00:47:10.710 --> 00:47:12.550
good to do the new habit. It doesn't feel good

00:47:12.550 --> 00:47:15.170
to have to think that hard. We're probably going

00:47:15.170 --> 00:47:17.289
to be pretty clumsy with our new habit, right?

00:47:18.000 --> 00:47:19.579
A very common thing that string players have

00:47:19.579 --> 00:47:21.860
to do is change things with their bow hand. And

00:47:21.860 --> 00:47:24.159
at first you can feel very clumsy and like you

00:47:24.159 --> 00:47:26.199
can't really play very well with your new bow

00:47:26.199 --> 00:47:28.139
hand, even if you understand intellectually,

00:47:28.159 --> 00:47:30.739
like, yes, this is better. Even if you can see

00:47:30.739 --> 00:47:32.539
how your old bow hand is getting in your way.

00:47:33.579 --> 00:47:36.099
And so, yeah, it just doesn't feel very good

00:47:36.099 --> 00:47:38.519
because it's a very conscious thing because you

00:47:38.519 --> 00:47:41.300
don't have that myelinated pathway yet. I also

00:47:41.300 --> 00:47:43.000
talk in the book about something called proactive

00:47:43.000 --> 00:47:47.900
interference, which is when you learn new information

00:47:47.900 --> 00:47:50.300
that conflicts with old information that you

00:47:50.300 --> 00:47:53.320
already know, the brain tries to protect that

00:47:53.320 --> 00:47:55.920
old information and actually actively makes you

00:47:55.920 --> 00:47:59.119
forget that sort of new information. So this

00:47:59.119 --> 00:48:01.420
is why it can be really hard to sort of change

00:48:01.420 --> 00:48:04.159
your mind on something that's very sort of, you

00:48:04.159 --> 00:48:08.139
know, well ingrained. different people have different

00:48:08.139 --> 00:48:11.900
levels of proactive interference. And so someone

00:48:11.900 --> 00:48:15.460
who really stubbornly sticks to their way of

00:48:15.460 --> 00:48:18.559
thinking, even with tons of evidence to the contrary,

00:48:18.619 --> 00:48:20.559
maybe they have really high levels of proactive

00:48:20.559 --> 00:48:22.760
interference and their brain is like protecting

00:48:22.760 --> 00:48:24.900
that old information, even if the old information

00:48:24.900 --> 00:48:27.760
is incorrect. And so that's another aspect of

00:48:27.760 --> 00:48:31.280
creating a new habit is your brain is trying

00:48:31.280 --> 00:48:33.800
to hold on to that old habit, even though you

00:48:33.800 --> 00:48:36.989
don't want it to. That is interesting. Yeah.

00:48:37.010 --> 00:48:40.230
And so that I mean, I think that can help people,

00:48:40.250 --> 00:48:43.710
one, give themselves more compassion when they're

00:48:43.710 --> 00:48:45.849
trying to create a new habit. Because, you know,

00:48:45.849 --> 00:48:48.809
even if you see very clearly how your old habit

00:48:48.809 --> 00:48:50.730
is holding you back, even if the old habit is

00:48:50.730 --> 00:48:53.570
causing pain in the case of like an injury or

00:48:53.570 --> 00:48:56.309
something, even if it's exceptionally clear to

00:48:56.309 --> 00:48:58.710
you. this habit. I do not want this anymore.

00:48:58.889 --> 00:49:01.210
It's still really hard to change. And I think

00:49:01.210 --> 00:49:03.030
if you understand the myelination thing and the

00:49:03.030 --> 00:49:05.010
proactive interference thing that can give yourself,

00:49:05.090 --> 00:49:06.969
you can give yourself more compassion about why

00:49:06.969 --> 00:49:08.909
it's so hard to do that. I think it can also

00:49:08.909 --> 00:49:11.769
help teachers understand why it can be so hard

00:49:11.769 --> 00:49:13.670
for students to change. I think as teachers,

00:49:13.730 --> 00:49:17.880
it's really easy to sort of. look at a student

00:49:17.880 --> 00:49:19.780
who has a bad habit and you as the teacher have

00:49:19.780 --> 00:49:22.199
pointed it out 500 times the student says they

00:49:22.199 --> 00:49:25.000
understand they can do the new habit and it just

00:49:25.000 --> 00:49:27.639
seems like they're stubborn or they're not practicing

00:49:27.639 --> 00:49:29.519
or they're not paying attention and it's like

00:49:29.519 --> 00:49:33.880
maybe but more more likely they are working on

00:49:33.880 --> 00:49:36.500
it and their brain is just you know doing what

00:49:36.500 --> 00:49:38.460
brains do and protecting the protecting the old

00:49:38.460 --> 00:49:41.280
information yeah but explaining that from the

00:49:41.280 --> 00:49:45.780
neuroscientist way it just makes sense oh how

00:49:45.780 --> 00:49:49.719
human that is right how human it is exactly and

00:49:49.719 --> 00:49:52.400
i think that like i mean i had to get rid of

00:49:52.400 --> 00:49:54.420
a lot of old bad habits in my playing that were

00:49:54.420 --> 00:49:55.980
causing injury so i've been through it myself

00:49:55.980 --> 00:49:58.340
i've taken a lot of students through that process

00:49:58.340 --> 00:50:02.260
of changing habits in their playing and i i think

00:50:02.260 --> 00:50:05.300
it's i think it's important as a teacher to acknowledge

00:50:05.300 --> 00:50:08.530
that like This is frustrating. And this, this

00:50:08.530 --> 00:50:11.150
is a process that isn't quick and it isn't easy,

00:50:11.309 --> 00:50:13.550
but you can do it. You know, I think a lot of

00:50:13.550 --> 00:50:15.150
students often think something is wrong with

00:50:15.150 --> 00:50:16.730
them when they can't change their habit, like

00:50:16.730 --> 00:50:18.130
instantly it's like, well, that's not how the

00:50:18.130 --> 00:50:20.789
brain works, you know, and understanding from

00:50:20.789 --> 00:50:22.889
a teacher's perspective, like how long does this

00:50:22.889 --> 00:50:26.590
actually take? And sort of, you know, when, you

00:50:26.590 --> 00:50:28.670
know, for instance, if I'm helping a student

00:50:28.670 --> 00:50:32.079
with a bad habit. And I see them playing with

00:50:32.079 --> 00:50:33.579
their old habit, but then they catch themselves

00:50:33.579 --> 00:50:36.300
and they fix it, making sure to point that out

00:50:36.300 --> 00:50:37.800
and celebrate that and be like, what you just

00:50:37.800 --> 00:50:40.300
did, that was awesome. Every time you catch that

00:50:40.300 --> 00:50:42.400
old habit and you fix it and you make, you know,

00:50:42.400 --> 00:50:44.300
you do the new habit instead, you're making it

00:50:44.300 --> 00:50:46.519
easier for your brain to do that the next time.

00:50:46.579 --> 00:50:49.460
And so helping them approach it from like a celebration

00:50:49.460 --> 00:50:52.360
standpoint, rather than a why are you still doing

00:50:52.360 --> 00:50:55.559
this old habit standpoint? Yeah, yeah. Yes, I

00:50:55.559 --> 00:50:58.800
know that language, we have to be careful, right?

00:50:59.179 --> 00:51:03.769
Right. Also, because and then the old way of

00:51:03.769 --> 00:51:07.650
teaching or probably from my generation, if you

00:51:07.650 --> 00:51:11.889
keep making the same mistakes or keeping the

00:51:11.889 --> 00:51:15.289
old habits, oh, you're just simply not talented

00:51:15.289 --> 00:51:18.630
or good enough. Right. But which is that's a

00:51:18.630 --> 00:51:20.369
soapbox issue for me, though. The word talent.

00:51:20.550 --> 00:51:23.710
I could talk all day about that. Yeah, because

00:51:23.710 --> 00:51:25.829
I mean, yeah, you're right that it's a very old

00:51:25.829 --> 00:51:28.690
fashioned view. That, you know, if a student

00:51:28.690 --> 00:51:30.289
can't do something well, they're not talented.

00:51:30.550 --> 00:51:33.989
And what the research is very clear on is that

00:51:33.989 --> 00:51:37.829
like talent, that is natural ability. doesn't

00:51:37.829 --> 00:51:40.250
matter in terms of whether someone achieves a

00:51:40.250 --> 00:51:41.710
high level of skill. What matters is how they

00:51:41.710 --> 00:51:45.070
practice. I think it's all of us have things

00:51:45.070 --> 00:51:47.329
that come more easily to us than other people.

00:51:47.409 --> 00:51:49.090
I think everybody sort of knows that, right?

00:51:49.170 --> 00:51:51.070
And like, just like I was talking about hair

00:51:51.070 --> 00:51:52.809
color before, like we are all different, right?

00:51:52.889 --> 00:51:54.610
And we all have things that come easily to us

00:51:54.610 --> 00:51:56.730
and don't come easily to us. And I think for

00:51:56.730 --> 00:51:58.929
a long time, it was thought that if something

00:51:58.929 --> 00:52:01.690
doesn't come easily to you, therefore you cannot

00:52:01.690 --> 00:52:03.369
learn to do it at a high level. And that's just

00:52:03.369 --> 00:52:08.429
simply not true at all. You may have to work

00:52:08.429 --> 00:52:11.329
harder at it than someone for whom it comes easily,

00:52:11.449 --> 00:52:14.670
but that's fine. You can work. You can work hard.

00:52:14.750 --> 00:52:17.010
Right. And just because something comes easily

00:52:17.010 --> 00:52:19.130
to you, if you don't work at it, you're not going

00:52:19.130 --> 00:52:21.750
to achieve a high level of skill. Right. And

00:52:21.750 --> 00:52:24.710
so it always makes me really it makes me really

00:52:24.710 --> 00:52:26.929
angry when people say, oh, that person is so

00:52:26.929 --> 00:52:29.269
talented. Like, no, they've worked hard. Right.

00:52:29.590 --> 00:52:33.170
Maybe as a child, you know, they had, you know.

00:52:33.530 --> 00:52:35.670
it was a little bit easier for them to play the

00:52:35.670 --> 00:52:38.429
piano than some other child in their class. And

00:52:38.429 --> 00:52:40.250
so then they were encouraged by their parents

00:52:40.250 --> 00:52:42.110
and teachers and given lessons. And, you know,

00:52:42.110 --> 00:52:43.949
then they grew up and it looks like, Oh, this

00:52:43.949 --> 00:52:45.969
person has so much natural talent, but if they

00:52:45.969 --> 00:52:48.530
hadn't been given that good instruction and encouragement,

00:52:48.690 --> 00:52:51.130
like they wouldn't be playing piano today. Somebody

00:52:51.130 --> 00:52:53.190
can't just like be born and be a concert pianist.

00:52:53.250 --> 00:52:55.289
Like that's, that's not how it works. Absolutely.

00:52:55.429 --> 00:52:59.309
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Now going back to the

00:52:59.309 --> 00:53:04.239
habit thing. So then for some, people, doesn't

00:53:04.239 --> 00:53:08.460
matter whether adults or young students or, you

00:53:08.460 --> 00:53:12.659
know, the experienced people, it's hard for us

00:53:12.659 --> 00:53:16.960
ourselves to see the bad habit. Right. Right.

00:53:17.159 --> 00:53:21.099
Is there like a practical solution to this? Yeah.

00:53:21.179 --> 00:53:22.980
So I talk in the book about old way, new way.

00:53:23.619 --> 00:53:27.380
And so, yeah, often when we have old bad habits,

00:53:27.559 --> 00:53:30.400
we're not consciously aware of it. We do it sort

00:53:30.400 --> 00:53:34.199
of without even. realizing. And it's really hard

00:53:34.199 --> 00:53:35.860
to correct something if you don't realize you're

00:53:35.860 --> 00:53:39.880
doing it, right? And so there's this method of

00:53:39.880 --> 00:53:42.039
creating or not creating, sorry, correcting bad

00:53:42.039 --> 00:53:44.300
habits, not creating bad habits. There's a method

00:53:44.300 --> 00:53:46.780
of correcting bad habits called old way, new

00:53:46.780 --> 00:53:50.360
way, which essentially helps bring that old habit

00:53:50.360 --> 00:53:52.599
into conscious awareness so you can fix it. So

00:53:52.599 --> 00:53:56.039
basically the way it works is the student first

00:53:56.039 --> 00:53:59.559
has to become consciously aware of The old habit

00:53:59.559 --> 00:54:03.360
of the bad habit. And sometimes that is simply

00:54:03.360 --> 00:54:05.659
pointing it out to the student that no one's

00:54:05.659 --> 00:54:07.579
ever pointed it out to them before. And then

00:54:07.579 --> 00:54:10.360
you point it out as a teacher and the student

00:54:10.360 --> 00:54:12.199
is like, oh, gosh, I didn't realize I was doing

00:54:12.199 --> 00:54:14.599
that. Sometimes it means like recording them

00:54:14.599 --> 00:54:16.599
video or audio and like having the student watch

00:54:16.599 --> 00:54:18.659
it so they can see, oh, I am doing that weird

00:54:18.659 --> 00:54:21.019
thing with my hand. Oh, my gosh. You know, it's

00:54:21.019 --> 00:54:23.119
so easy to video record now. And that's something

00:54:23.119 --> 00:54:25.119
I do a lot in lessons. But anyway, bringing.

00:54:26.039 --> 00:54:28.199
Bringing awareness to the student of you are

00:54:28.199 --> 00:54:30.659
you are doing this and this is an issue. So the

00:54:30.659 --> 00:54:32.380
student can actually like understand the issue.

00:54:33.239 --> 00:54:36.699
Then the student has to be able to do the bad

00:54:36.699 --> 00:54:40.599
habit on purpose and the new habit on purpose

00:54:40.599 --> 00:54:43.280
that they can do both of them like on command.

00:54:45.280 --> 00:54:48.039
Because often with old habits, sometimes once

00:54:48.039 --> 00:54:51.960
it's pointed out, a student like can't really

00:54:51.960 --> 00:54:54.440
do it. on purpose anymore, but it will keep happening

00:54:54.440 --> 00:54:56.840
by accident. I'm sure all of us have had like

00:54:56.840 --> 00:54:59.340
experiences like that with students, right? And

00:54:59.340 --> 00:55:02.960
so the student needs to be able to recreate the

00:55:02.960 --> 00:55:06.480
bad habit and be able to do the new habit. And

00:55:06.480 --> 00:55:08.579
so once they can do that, and often it takes

00:55:08.579 --> 00:55:11.260
a lot of help from the teacher, obviously, to

00:55:11.260 --> 00:55:14.300
help be able to do that. But once they can do

00:55:14.300 --> 00:55:16.420
the new habit on command and do the old habit

00:55:16.420 --> 00:55:19.519
on command, then the old way, new way, like protocol

00:55:19.519 --> 00:55:22.710
proper starts. where basically you have the student

00:55:22.710 --> 00:55:26.449
play using their old habit and then describe

00:55:26.449 --> 00:55:30.090
out loud in words in as much detail as they can

00:55:30.090 --> 00:55:32.769
how the old way feels, anything that they notice

00:55:32.769 --> 00:55:35.909
about the old way. And then they play the same

00:55:35.909 --> 00:55:38.570
thing using the new habit and then describe how

00:55:38.570 --> 00:55:41.309
the new way feels in as much detail as possible.

00:55:42.230 --> 00:55:45.369
So you do this old way, describe it, new way,

00:55:45.469 --> 00:55:48.190
describe it. You do that. five times. And it

00:55:48.190 --> 00:55:50.210
feels very annoying. Actually, I've done this

00:55:50.210 --> 00:55:52.769
with a number of students. After a student has

00:55:52.769 --> 00:55:55.690
described it like two or three times, it's like,

00:55:55.710 --> 00:55:57.570
why do I have to keep describing this? I just

00:55:57.570 --> 00:56:00.570
described this to you. But what I found with

00:56:00.570 --> 00:56:04.230
doing this with students is, well, one, the continued

00:56:04.230 --> 00:56:08.230
describing of it helps bring that old habit into

00:56:08.230 --> 00:56:10.150
conscious awareness. And if you don't do the

00:56:10.150 --> 00:56:12.050
describing every time, it doesn't really work

00:56:12.050 --> 00:56:14.750
as well. And also what I find with students is

00:56:14.750 --> 00:56:17.269
every time they have to describe it, they add

00:56:17.269 --> 00:56:20.190
more detail to it and the old habit becomes increasingly

00:56:20.190 --> 00:56:23.329
annoying. They start to notice more and more

00:56:23.329 --> 00:56:25.409
things every time they have to describe it of,

00:56:25.489 --> 00:56:28.250
oh gosh, it feels really bad, not only in my

00:56:28.250 --> 00:56:30.309
hand, but also in my back and my knee feels really

00:56:30.309 --> 00:56:32.550
weird or something like that. And so they add

00:56:32.550 --> 00:56:34.909
new details every time and they get more and

00:56:34.909 --> 00:56:37.949
more annoyed with the old habit every time. Once

00:56:37.949 --> 00:56:39.650
you've done this old way described, new way described,

00:56:39.849 --> 00:56:42.440
you've done that five times. Then the student

00:56:42.440 --> 00:56:46.420
just does the new way sort of by itself, like

00:56:46.420 --> 00:56:48.500
five or six times just to make sure that they

00:56:48.500 --> 00:56:51.960
can do the new way on command. And it works really

00:56:51.960 --> 00:56:55.019
well to bring the old habit into conscious awareness,

00:56:55.079 --> 00:56:58.599
to bring more awareness to what's wrong with

00:56:58.599 --> 00:57:01.199
the old habit. And so how bad it how bad it feels

00:57:01.199 --> 00:57:04.559
in a way that just as the teacher pointing out,

00:57:04.579 --> 00:57:06.860
you're doing this bad habit doesn't that doesn't

00:57:06.860 --> 00:57:11.219
work nearly as well. Wow. OK. All the things

00:57:11.219 --> 00:57:14.119
that we've discussed so far, it's just so, so

00:57:14.119 --> 00:57:16.579
great. Yeah. And then thank you. And then some

00:57:16.579 --> 00:57:19.420
of the things were, let's say, you know, as a

00:57:19.420 --> 00:57:22.079
teacher, I've been already putting things into

00:57:22.079 --> 00:57:26.300
practice and you gave me the sort of validation

00:57:26.300 --> 00:57:30.199
or confirmation. I felt so seen and yeah. That's

00:57:30.199 --> 00:57:33.719
good. Yeah. But also do you find, you know, I

00:57:33.719 --> 00:57:37.219
know you're a violist, but there are, you know,

00:57:37.659 --> 00:57:40.280
In classical music, it's all about learning from

00:57:40.280 --> 00:57:42.739
the masters and they're learning from this tradition,

00:57:42.880 --> 00:57:46.619
right? Right. So I know there have been great

00:57:46.619 --> 00:57:49.039
teaching and also at the same time, bad ones

00:57:49.039 --> 00:57:52.980
too. And we've all experienced it. Also, the

00:57:52.980 --> 00:57:58.099
technique that doesn't work any longer, the famous

00:57:58.099 --> 00:58:03.619
methodology or whatnot, right? Right. Now, so

00:58:03.619 --> 00:58:06.420
let's talk about new ones. Oh, even the bad ones.

00:58:06.860 --> 00:58:11.079
Do you think that those things are sort of proved

00:58:11.079 --> 00:58:14.210
by neuroscience? Yeah, that's a really good question.

00:58:14.329 --> 00:58:16.610
I mean, I think that, yeah, like there's sort

00:58:16.610 --> 00:58:18.809
of old ways of teaching that we realize don't

00:58:18.809 --> 00:58:21.289
really work anymore, either like technical ways

00:58:21.289 --> 00:58:23.190
of playing that we know a lot more about like

00:58:23.190 --> 00:58:25.829
ergonomics and how the body works now. And I

00:58:25.829 --> 00:58:28.010
think like, I mean, I'm sure this is true in

00:58:28.010 --> 00:58:29.550
piano playing. It's definitely true in string

00:58:29.550 --> 00:58:31.510
playing that there's like these old fashioned

00:58:31.510 --> 00:58:34.570
ways of physically playing the instrument that

00:58:34.570 --> 00:58:38.670
people played well in spite of playing. that

00:58:38.670 --> 00:58:41.010
way rather than because they were playing that

00:58:41.010 --> 00:58:44.090
way. And I think for many generations, it was

00:58:44.090 --> 00:58:45.909
seen as the other way around. Like, okay, this

00:58:45.909 --> 00:58:48.769
famous person did this with their bow arm and

00:58:48.769 --> 00:58:50.949
they sounded amazing. Therefore, that must be

00:58:50.949 --> 00:58:53.929
how you play. And now knowing what we know better

00:58:53.929 --> 00:58:56.449
about how the body works, it's like, no, you

00:58:56.449 --> 00:58:58.150
don't want to do that with your bow arm. That's

00:58:58.150 --> 00:59:00.650
like, you can play that way, but there's a way

00:59:00.650 --> 00:59:02.530
better way to play that's going to be a lot easier.

00:59:02.809 --> 00:59:05.869
And that's the same thing with old -fashioned

00:59:05.869 --> 00:59:09.159
teaching methods. people learned how to play

00:59:09.159 --> 00:59:11.320
in spite of those poor teaching methods, not

00:59:11.320 --> 00:59:13.619
because of them. And now that we know more about

00:59:13.619 --> 00:59:15.960
how the brain works and how people learn, you

00:59:15.960 --> 00:59:18.059
know, we can see, okay, that's, you know, those

00:59:18.059 --> 00:59:20.059
are not good teaching methods. That being said,

00:59:20.139 --> 00:59:22.360
a lot of great teachers over the generations

00:59:22.360 --> 00:59:25.039
have intuited a lot of things that science has

00:59:25.039 --> 00:59:28.639
discovered, right? And so it's really great to

00:59:28.639 --> 00:59:30.679
have that sort of scientific validation of like,

00:59:30.780 --> 00:59:33.579
yes, this is effective. What teachers have intuited,

00:59:33.639 --> 00:59:36.579
what they've noticed with their students and

00:59:36.579 --> 00:59:39.579
with themselves is correct. And here is is, you

00:59:39.579 --> 00:59:41.320
know, evidence from scientific research that

00:59:41.320 --> 00:59:43.320
this does work. Carry on, because that's a good

00:59:43.320 --> 00:59:47.800
thing to do. Yeah. Wow. So that's why I really

00:59:47.800 --> 00:59:50.119
have been enjoying reading this book. And then,

00:59:50.159 --> 00:59:54.409
as you can see, I have so many. Wow, that's impressive.

00:59:54.429 --> 00:59:56.590
They're very colorful. I love it. Oh, yeah. And

00:59:56.590 --> 01:00:01.619
then, sorry, I spilled some tea on it. But I

01:00:01.619 --> 01:00:04.079
had to get the actual copy rather than, you know,

01:00:04.079 --> 01:00:07.659
downloading because I wanted to do this. I miss

01:00:07.659 --> 01:00:10.599
doing these. Right. I'm a physical book person

01:00:10.599 --> 01:00:13.579
too. E -books like don't feel real to me. I need

01:00:13.579 --> 01:00:15.760
like the actual like physical book. I know. And

01:00:15.760 --> 01:00:17.860
then folding the corner, you know, that sort

01:00:17.860 --> 01:00:22.119
of thing. Anyway, so you also talk about memory.

01:00:22.199 --> 01:00:26.719
Now, this memory thing is a big thing. Especially

01:00:26.719 --> 01:00:28.780
for pianists. Especially for pianists, yes, because

01:00:28.780 --> 01:00:31.019
we are supposed to be memorizing everything.

01:00:31.420 --> 01:00:34.659
Right. Now, the memory, let's talk about memory

01:00:34.659 --> 01:00:38.679
slips, right? Yeah. It comes in the different

01:00:38.679 --> 01:00:44.260
shapes and sizes. So, now, there is a total blackout

01:00:44.260 --> 01:00:48.320
on concert stage. And then or some of the kids

01:00:48.320 --> 01:00:50.960
they do starting from the wrong octaves. So,

01:00:51.000 --> 01:00:53.480
you know, this is this little kid. She's supposed

01:00:53.480 --> 01:00:55.559
to be playing this little cute song and starting

01:00:55.559 --> 01:00:58.239
two octaves lower. Some reason it's sounding

01:00:58.239 --> 01:01:01.760
so horrible, so adorable. But, you know, oh,

01:01:01.780 --> 01:01:04.599
my goodness. We're starting with somewhat sounding

01:01:04.599 --> 01:01:07.039
like the piece, but there is a disconnect happens

01:01:07.039 --> 01:01:10.539
in our brain. And then just I don't know, disconnect

01:01:10.539 --> 01:01:13.739
between oral and motor. Right. Right. And you

01:01:13.739 --> 01:01:16.380
can't move your fingers the way you want. And

01:01:16.380 --> 01:01:20.659
that sort of thing, or maybe also starting somewhat

01:01:20.659 --> 01:01:24.940
normal and ended up like an atonal. And it was

01:01:24.940 --> 01:01:28.039
supposed to be Mozart, right? Right, right. So.

01:01:28.920 --> 01:01:33.400
Tell me what sort of memory types. Yeah. So,

01:01:33.480 --> 01:01:35.800
yeah, you know, there's many different types

01:01:35.800 --> 01:01:38.199
of memory in the brain and they all work together

01:01:38.199 --> 01:01:41.039
so seamlessly that we experience it as one like

01:01:41.039 --> 01:01:42.679
unitary thing. Like people will say, like, I

01:01:42.679 --> 01:01:44.400
have a bad memory. I have a good memory. But

01:01:44.400 --> 01:01:47.179
they are actually separate memory types. And

01:01:47.179 --> 01:01:49.210
we know that they're separate because. They can

01:01:49.210 --> 01:01:50.710
be damaged separately, like people that have

01:01:50.710 --> 01:01:52.329
a stroke or something that have some sort of

01:01:52.329 --> 01:01:54.110
brain damage. They can have one type of memory

01:01:54.110 --> 01:01:56.329
totally damaged and not there at all and other

01:01:56.329 --> 01:01:58.429
types of memory completely intact. So that's

01:01:58.429 --> 01:02:01.329
how we know that they are actually separate things.

01:02:02.369 --> 01:02:05.769
And when we play music from memory, we're relying

01:02:05.769 --> 01:02:09.590
on a bunch of different memory types. And like

01:02:09.590 --> 01:02:13.889
your examples that you gave, like one very important

01:02:13.889 --> 01:02:16.090
memory type that we use when we perform is muscle

01:02:16.090 --> 01:02:17.800
memory, right? What is it? What does it feel

01:02:17.800 --> 01:02:21.099
like? And so somebody that's like, you know,

01:02:21.099 --> 01:02:25.059
suddenly like blacks out or blanks totally or,

01:02:25.099 --> 01:02:27.539
you know, becomes atonal, like maybe their muscle

01:02:27.539 --> 01:02:30.199
memory isn't very strong and they don't remember

01:02:30.199 --> 01:02:32.420
like how to play it, what it should feel like

01:02:32.420 --> 01:02:35.579
to play. Another type is our aural memory. What

01:02:35.579 --> 01:02:37.639
does it sound like to play, right? And so if

01:02:37.639 --> 01:02:39.960
somebody like forgets how it goes, that's really

01:02:39.960 --> 01:02:41.440
hard. It's really hard to play it if you don't

01:02:41.440 --> 01:02:44.090
know how it goes. And then another important

01:02:44.090 --> 01:02:46.030
type of memory when we're playing is what's known

01:02:46.030 --> 01:02:48.769
as declarative memory. So you're in the case

01:02:48.769 --> 01:02:50.429
of music, your memory for like the actual notes

01:02:50.429 --> 01:02:53.190
and rhythms that are, that are on the page. So

01:02:53.190 --> 01:02:55.929
declarative memory broadly is like memory that

01:02:55.929 --> 01:02:58.550
you can like tell to someone like facts or like

01:02:58.550 --> 01:03:00.349
events that sort of happened to you, that kind

01:03:00.349 --> 01:03:03.309
of thing. And so like with music, you could tell

01:03:03.309 --> 01:03:05.210
someone what the notes and rhythms are supposed

01:03:05.210 --> 01:03:09.769
to be sort of on the page. And all of us have.

01:03:10.480 --> 01:03:13.920
One of these that's stronger for us, many people

01:03:13.920 --> 01:03:15.539
it's muscle memory, many people it's aural memory.

01:03:15.659 --> 01:03:17.719
For me, it's definitely muscle memory, no question.

01:03:18.599 --> 01:03:21.820
And especially as kids, we tend to rely on the

01:03:21.820 --> 01:03:23.820
one that is our strong suit. We don't even realize

01:03:23.820 --> 01:03:25.340
there's these different types of memory, right?

01:03:25.400 --> 01:03:27.380
Whichever one is strongest for us, that's what

01:03:27.380 --> 01:03:30.239
we rely on in a performance. But if that one

01:03:30.239 --> 01:03:33.380
breaks down, You don't have anything because

01:03:33.380 --> 01:03:35.559
the other types of memory haven't been kind of

01:03:35.559 --> 01:03:39.260
shored up and practiced. And so like if muscle

01:03:39.260 --> 01:03:41.519
memory breaks down and you forget how it feels

01:03:41.519 --> 01:03:43.480
to play and you don't know how it goes, you don't

01:03:43.480 --> 01:03:45.480
know what the notes and rhythms are like, what

01:03:45.480 --> 01:03:47.599
are you going to do? Like you don't know. And

01:03:47.599 --> 01:03:49.059
so that's when you kind of stop and you have

01:03:49.059 --> 01:03:51.960
this just you're just totally blank. But if all

01:03:51.960 --> 01:03:54.300
three types of memory are equally strong and

01:03:54.300 --> 01:03:56.320
you've sort of worked on all three really well,

01:03:56.360 --> 01:03:59.619
then. You know, if one of them say my muscle

01:03:59.619 --> 01:04:02.360
memory goes blank, but I know how it goes, then,

01:04:02.360 --> 01:04:04.380
you know, that can help me get back on. Or if

01:04:04.380 --> 01:04:06.860
my muscle memory goes blank and my aural memory

01:04:06.860 --> 01:04:09.039
goes blank, but I know, OK, this piece is in

01:04:09.039 --> 01:04:10.659
C major and I'm almost at the end. Therefore,

01:04:10.760 --> 01:04:13.260
I have to end on a C major chord that I can find

01:04:13.260 --> 01:04:15.280
my way to a C major chord. Right. And I can do

01:04:15.280 --> 01:04:17.179
it kind of logically like that, even if I can't

01:04:17.179 --> 01:04:19.320
remember how it's supposed to go. And so the

01:04:19.320 --> 01:04:21.219
different kinds of memory kind of support each

01:04:21.219 --> 01:04:24.679
other in that way. And usually if all three are

01:04:24.679 --> 01:04:26.940
strong, if one breaks down, the other one will

01:04:26.940 --> 01:04:29.400
kind of swoop in and help the one that broke

01:04:29.400 --> 01:04:31.860
down remember, like, oh yeah, right, that's how

01:04:31.860 --> 01:04:35.519
it goes now. And so when we're preparing to play

01:04:35.519 --> 01:04:38.440
from memory, it's really important that we make

01:04:38.440 --> 01:04:41.860
sure all three are equally strong so that we

01:04:41.860 --> 01:04:43.900
have these sort of backup systems to rely on.

01:04:44.269 --> 01:04:47.489
Yeah, so there are different ways to work on

01:04:47.489 --> 01:04:50.070
the memory. And then, you know, aural can be,

01:04:50.070 --> 01:04:54.349
okay, as a pianist, solfege, that may help. Right,

01:04:54.449 --> 01:04:56.210
exactly. Yeah. So testing your aural memory,

01:04:56.309 --> 01:04:59.050
can you sing it from memory on solfege, on la

01:04:59.050 --> 01:05:02.409
la la, if someone doesn't know solfege, on finger

01:05:02.409 --> 01:05:04.329
numbers, on note names, like whatever you want.

01:05:04.389 --> 01:05:06.050
That's a great way to test your aural memory

01:05:06.050 --> 01:05:09.010
of do you actually know how it goes? Yeah. And

01:05:09.010 --> 01:05:12.360
how about motor? Yeah, to test motor memory.

01:05:12.440 --> 01:05:15.019
So for pianists, it would be just don't press

01:05:15.019 --> 01:05:16.539
down the keys or if you're using an electronic

01:05:16.539 --> 01:05:18.980
keyboard, just don't turn it on. So there is

01:05:18.980 --> 01:05:21.860
no sound. So because often people who have a

01:05:21.860 --> 01:05:24.920
strong aural memory, but a weak muscle memory,

01:05:25.059 --> 01:05:27.940
they're relying on the feedback from the instrument

01:05:27.940 --> 01:05:29.780
to tell them whether they're playing it correctly.

01:05:29.920 --> 01:05:32.239
Right. And if that feedback from the instrument

01:05:32.239 --> 01:05:35.210
is gone and there's no sound. They have no idea

01:05:35.210 --> 01:05:37.190
what they're playing, but that means the muscle

01:05:37.190 --> 01:05:38.949
memory is really weak. You should be able to

01:05:38.949 --> 01:05:41.849
play no problem with no sound and know that you're

01:05:41.849 --> 01:05:45.510
playing it correctly or not. So for pianists,

01:05:45.510 --> 01:05:47.230
yeah, just don't press the keys down or if it's

01:05:47.230 --> 01:05:48.929
electronic keyboard, just like don't turn it

01:05:48.929 --> 01:05:52.130
on. So there's no sound involved. For me as a

01:05:52.130 --> 01:05:54.349
string player, my favorite way to test it is

01:05:54.349 --> 01:05:56.340
because I... I mean, I can play with no sound,

01:05:56.380 --> 01:05:58.420
but it's not as easy as piano is to take my cleaning

01:05:58.420 --> 01:06:00.980
cloth and to slip it between the strings and

01:06:00.980 --> 01:06:02.559
the fingerboard that mutes it. And you just get

01:06:02.559 --> 01:06:04.519
a bunch of squeaks. And so you get sound, but

01:06:04.519 --> 01:06:06.119
it doesn't sound anything like the piece. It's

01:06:06.119 --> 01:06:08.059
just a whole bunch of squeaks going on. And that

01:06:08.059 --> 01:06:11.179
really tests like, you know, do I know this?

01:06:11.199 --> 01:06:13.519
Do I know what it feels like to play this piece?

01:06:14.019 --> 01:06:16.500
And the other one you mentioned. Declarative

01:06:16.500 --> 01:06:21.159
memory. Basically, that's like. analytical or

01:06:21.159 --> 01:06:23.780
analytical yeah like knowing like what's actually

01:06:23.780 --> 01:06:26.900
sort of on the page um and so for that like a

01:06:26.900 --> 01:06:30.000
great way to test that is to um get out a blank

01:06:30.000 --> 01:06:33.000
piece of staff paper and write it out from from

01:06:33.000 --> 01:06:35.179
memory to see if you could do that's really hard

01:06:35.179 --> 01:06:38.599
right but the actual notes the actual notes the

01:06:38.599 --> 01:06:41.059
actual rhythms like key signature time signature

01:06:41.059 --> 01:06:43.300
dynamics like everything you can remember like

01:06:43.300 --> 01:06:45.980
write it out from memory that's often quite challenging

01:06:45.980 --> 01:06:48.699
for people but it can really show you where you

01:06:48.699 --> 01:06:52.219
have blank spots in your memory, right? I had

01:06:52.219 --> 01:06:55.099
a student doing this once and the piece was in

01:06:55.099 --> 01:06:57.059
three, four, and it was just like, it was a piece

01:06:57.059 --> 01:06:59.119
of by Bach and it was just like straight eighth

01:06:59.119 --> 01:07:00.320
notes. It was a current by Bach. It was just

01:07:00.320 --> 01:07:03.260
straight eighth notes. And this student got to

01:07:03.260 --> 01:07:04.920
one measure and there were only four eighth notes

01:07:04.920 --> 01:07:06.719
in the bar. And they were like, well, clearly

01:07:06.719 --> 01:07:08.400
something is missing because there needs to be

01:07:08.400 --> 01:07:10.579
six here, you know? And they didn't realize that

01:07:10.579 --> 01:07:12.699
there was this sort of black hole is what I call

01:07:12.699 --> 01:07:14.179
it in, in that measure where they didn't know

01:07:14.179 --> 01:07:16.139
what it was. And so that it can really show you

01:07:16.139 --> 01:07:18.559
where you. you don't really know for students

01:07:18.559 --> 01:07:21.159
that maybe don't read music or, you know, have

01:07:21.159 --> 01:07:23.880
learned it by ear and they can't write it out

01:07:23.880 --> 01:07:26.500
on staff paper, writing out like the names of

01:07:26.500 --> 01:07:28.820
the notes or the finger numbers or something

01:07:28.820 --> 01:07:31.380
like that, but like writing it down in some way,

01:07:31.519 --> 01:07:33.940
not necessarily using musical notation. That's

01:07:33.940 --> 01:07:39.000
another way to do it. Okay. Now it's challenging.

01:07:39.099 --> 01:07:42.880
That is challenging, but also, yeah, I think

01:07:42.880 --> 01:07:47.090
I would have my students say with words, For

01:07:47.090 --> 01:07:49.849
example, okay, what does the section A, how does

01:07:49.849 --> 01:07:52.710
that start? Yeah, that's great. And what key

01:07:52.710 --> 01:07:56.630
ended up ending the section? Yep, that's great.

01:07:56.630 --> 01:07:59.269
And after this section, what's the next section?

01:07:59.349 --> 01:08:02.389
Tell me in words. Perfect. Yeah, that's a great

01:08:02.389 --> 01:08:07.349
way to test it too. Yeah. Wow. Now let's talk

01:08:07.349 --> 01:08:11.110
about real world, right? So with all these, then

01:08:11.110 --> 01:08:13.750
we have to carry into the real world, which is

01:08:13.750 --> 01:08:17.470
the concert stage or audition, right? Now, retaining

01:08:17.470 --> 01:08:19.949
quality of work is another challenge that we

01:08:19.949 --> 01:08:22.430
face. And then for instance, one of my students

01:08:22.430 --> 01:08:26.210
who do well, and she does a lot of competitions

01:08:26.210 --> 01:08:29.689
and so on. So she has to retain this piece of

01:08:29.689 --> 01:08:33.850
music for over a period of a month, which is

01:08:33.850 --> 01:08:36.220
especially for young ones, that's hard. Hard,

01:08:36.239 --> 01:08:38.600
yeah. Gets bored, right? Yeah. The same thing

01:08:38.600 --> 01:08:41.939
over and over. Right. But there's like a sweet

01:08:41.939 --> 01:08:46.619
spot where you just learned and then polished

01:08:46.619 --> 01:08:50.100
and then memory is perfect. And at the same time,

01:08:50.119 --> 01:08:51.640
there's an edge. You know what I mean? Yeah.

01:08:51.659 --> 01:08:54.100
Because it's still new. But then it's the first

01:08:54.100 --> 01:08:58.130
performance. she does really well like you know

01:08:58.130 --> 01:09:01.550
but after a number of mock recitals and everything

01:09:01.550 --> 01:09:05.350
we do right then but the second and third performance

01:09:05.350 --> 01:09:08.029
she had to do with other events yeah it just

01:09:08.029 --> 01:09:13.449
loses or even the details are gone yeah and the

01:09:13.449 --> 01:09:17.949
even the focus in certain sections is gone how

01:09:17.949 --> 01:09:22.380
do we sustain this edginess yeah that's a great

01:09:22.380 --> 01:09:24.399
question i think that's something we've all experienced

01:09:24.399 --> 01:09:27.119
that it just becomes kind of boring right and

01:09:27.119 --> 01:09:29.600
so there's things that you can do in practice

01:09:29.600 --> 01:09:31.300
and then there's things that you can do in performance

01:09:31.300 --> 01:09:33.619
so let's talk about the practice first okay um

01:09:33.619 --> 01:09:37.100
so the things that i do they fall under the category

01:09:37.100 --> 01:09:41.979
of variable practice um so I think it's easy

01:09:41.979 --> 01:09:44.239
to think, okay, once you can play it really well,

01:09:44.300 --> 01:09:45.979
you just have to maintain that. You just have

01:09:45.979 --> 01:09:47.560
to keep repeating that because that's how you

01:09:47.560 --> 01:09:48.859
want to play it. But actually, you're going to

01:09:48.859 --> 01:09:50.180
maintain it better and it's going to be more

01:09:50.180 --> 01:09:52.600
interesting if you start playing it in lots of

01:09:52.600 --> 01:09:57.840
different ways. So for instance... you know with

01:09:57.840 --> 01:10:00.119
this student like once they can play it really

01:10:00.119 --> 01:10:01.760
really well they've given that first performance

01:10:01.760 --> 01:10:03.920
when they're practicing in between the next performances

01:10:03.920 --> 01:10:06.880
maybe they're going to try to impersonate different

01:10:06.880 --> 01:10:09.279
pianists and play it sort of in a really different

01:10:09.279 --> 01:10:12.730
way trying to sound like different pianists Or

01:10:12.730 --> 01:10:15.149
another one of my favorite ones to do is to,

01:10:15.210 --> 01:10:17.689
I usually won't do a whole piece this way. I'll

01:10:17.689 --> 01:10:19.130
just do like a phrase or something like that,

01:10:19.149 --> 01:10:21.329
but play it in lots of different emotions. So

01:10:21.329 --> 01:10:23.449
as a very simple example, if it's supposed to

01:10:23.449 --> 01:10:25.229
be happy, maybe I'm going to play it and make

01:10:25.229 --> 01:10:27.090
it sound angry, which it's not supposed to sound

01:10:27.090 --> 01:10:28.770
like, but that's a really good challenge, right?

01:10:30.760 --> 01:10:33.460
And, or trying to, yeah, impersonate different

01:10:33.460 --> 01:10:35.779
musicians, play it like different, like animals

01:10:35.779 --> 01:10:37.760
is something that kids love to do. Like, you

01:10:37.760 --> 01:10:39.319
know, how would an elephant play this? How would

01:10:39.319 --> 01:10:41.000
a tiger play this? How would a mouse play this?

01:10:41.060 --> 01:10:43.300
You know, but playing it in sort of lots of different,

01:10:43.340 --> 01:10:45.579
lots of different ways to make it interesting

01:10:45.579 --> 01:10:48.880
and sort of fresh. You can introduce physical

01:10:48.880 --> 01:10:55.430
challenges. So for piano. Find things to sit

01:10:55.430 --> 01:10:58.050
on that are the total wrong height, right? And

01:10:58.050 --> 01:11:00.189
can you play it well when you're like way too

01:11:00.189 --> 01:11:02.810
low or way too high or you're sitting on a chair

01:11:02.810 --> 01:11:04.989
that's kind of like, you know, sideways or something

01:11:04.989 --> 01:11:08.270
like that. But if you can play it well when there's

01:11:08.270 --> 01:11:10.829
like physical things going on like that, it's

01:11:10.829 --> 01:11:13.470
fun to try to do that, but it makes it, you know,

01:11:13.470 --> 01:11:15.949
easier when you then sort of play it as written.

01:11:16.130 --> 01:11:22.930
I also like to limit myself to one. expressive

01:11:22.930 --> 01:11:25.750
parameter and see if i can do all of my musical

01:11:25.750 --> 01:11:28.510
ideas using that expressive parameter only so

01:11:28.510 --> 01:11:31.729
for instance for piano maybe articulation you

01:11:31.729 --> 01:11:34.449
have to show all of your musical ideas just with

01:11:34.449 --> 01:11:38.310
articulation and nothing else um or just with

01:11:38.310 --> 01:11:41.310
the pedaling and nothing else it's really really

01:11:41.310 --> 01:11:45.029
challenging um but it sort of gives you new musical

01:11:45.029 --> 01:11:50.520
ideas and shows you sort of which um Which technical

01:11:50.520 --> 01:11:52.319
aspects, because those are technical aspects,

01:11:52.420 --> 01:11:54.479
right, of realizing musical ideas, like which

01:11:54.479 --> 01:11:57.239
technical aspects you're neglecting, which technical

01:11:57.239 --> 01:11:59.579
aspects you could think about with more creativity.

01:11:59.960 --> 01:12:01.819
And then it makes the piece more interesting

01:12:01.819 --> 01:12:05.039
and it makes it harder to play, which is a good

01:12:05.039 --> 01:12:07.600
challenge once it feels good because it keeps

01:12:07.600 --> 01:12:10.520
it on that edge. In terms of things to do in

01:12:10.520 --> 01:12:14.590
performance, once something feels good. I did

01:12:14.590 --> 01:12:16.989
this for the very first time in high school by

01:12:16.989 --> 01:12:19.210
accident. I was playing an audition. I was playing

01:12:19.210 --> 01:12:21.670
my Bach and I realized in the middle of the audition,

01:12:21.750 --> 01:12:23.810
I was like, gosh, this is really boring. Like

01:12:23.810 --> 01:12:26.609
I, I'm like doing nothing with my dynamics. I

01:12:26.609 --> 01:12:29.430
need way more dynamic contrast. And so I started

01:12:29.430 --> 01:12:31.850
literally improvising dynamics in the audition.

01:12:31.970 --> 01:12:34.390
I don't know what possessed me to do this. You're

01:12:34.390 --> 01:12:38.130
so brave. And I just realized like, wow, this

01:12:38.130 --> 01:12:39.409
is really boring. Like I need to do something.

01:12:39.510 --> 01:12:42.130
And so I literally, I remember improvising dynamics

01:12:42.130 --> 01:12:44.409
and it was a, it was a college audition. And

01:12:44.409 --> 01:12:46.869
I remember after the audition was over the, one

01:12:46.869 --> 01:12:47.930
of the people listening came out and they were

01:12:47.930 --> 01:12:49.710
like, that was fantastic. I'd love to have you

01:12:49.710 --> 01:12:51.489
in my studio. And I was like, really? Oh, okay,

01:12:51.590 --> 01:12:55.899
cool. But I've since discovered that that works

01:12:55.899 --> 01:12:58.199
really well in performance for something that

01:12:58.199 --> 01:13:00.920
is starting to feel stale, that like, I know

01:13:00.920 --> 01:13:03.659
I can play it. Like, why do I have to play this

01:13:03.659 --> 01:13:05.100
again? You know, you're kind of getting bored

01:13:05.100 --> 01:13:09.439
with it on stage, like not necessarily like if

01:13:09.439 --> 01:13:10.859
it's supposed to be forte, now you're going to

01:13:10.859 --> 01:13:13.659
play piano, but like sort of improvising within

01:13:13.659 --> 01:13:15.619
the bounds that you're given by the composer

01:13:15.619 --> 01:13:18.460
of like. you know, slightly different dynamics

01:13:18.460 --> 01:13:20.960
or slightly different direction and that it's,

01:13:20.960 --> 01:13:23.300
yeah, it becomes an improvisation and it's, it's

01:13:23.300 --> 01:13:25.319
just a lot more interesting that way. And it

01:13:25.319 --> 01:13:27.560
keeps you, it keeps you engaged and keeps it

01:13:27.560 --> 01:13:31.880
more fresh. Wow. Thank you. Yeah. I, I, I'm going

01:13:31.880 --> 01:13:35.479
to tell my student that, but also maybe, is it

01:13:35.479 --> 01:13:37.739
okay that we take a little bit of a break from

01:13:37.739 --> 01:13:40.909
the piece and not practicing all the time? Yes.

01:13:40.909 --> 01:13:42.789
I mean, that is, if you have time for that, that

01:13:42.789 --> 01:13:44.649
is fantastic too. I mean, sometimes students

01:13:44.649 --> 01:13:47.569
will have, you know, like they play a competition

01:13:47.569 --> 01:13:49.930
on Monday, a competition on Wednesday and recital

01:13:49.930 --> 01:13:51.670
on Thursday and right. And there isn't really

01:13:51.670 --> 01:13:54.930
time to take time off, but if there's time to

01:13:54.930 --> 01:13:56.850
take time off, that is the best thing to do.

01:13:56.869 --> 01:13:58.850
You know, that if they have, you know, they play

01:13:58.850 --> 01:14:01.189
it in a recital in March and then they're playing

01:14:01.189 --> 01:14:03.149
it for competition at like the end of April,

01:14:03.289 --> 01:14:06.430
let's say taking, you know, two, three, even

01:14:06.430 --> 01:14:08.810
maybe four weeks off from it would be a really

01:14:08.810 --> 01:14:11.460
great thing to do. Now let's talk about mental

01:14:11.460 --> 01:14:16.899
prep. Yes. So this is still a very abstract concept

01:14:16.899 --> 01:14:21.220
for many of us, you know, because once again,

01:14:21.300 --> 01:14:24.000
we feel like at the very last minute, we still

01:14:24.000 --> 01:14:27.420
have to be in touch with the key or instruments

01:14:27.420 --> 01:14:32.289
and then just practice like a mad person. Yes.

01:14:32.289 --> 01:14:34.930
Yeah. That's still the case. So mental prep is

01:14:34.930 --> 01:14:37.350
something that is a very, very bottom of the

01:14:37.350 --> 01:14:42.250
list or even non -existence. Right. And it shouldn't

01:14:42.250 --> 01:14:44.229
be, but I totally understand that. I mean, I

01:14:44.229 --> 01:14:47.270
used to have this fear that if I wasn't physically

01:14:47.270 --> 01:14:49.470
playing my instrument until the moment I walked

01:14:49.470 --> 01:14:51.289
on stage, I would somehow forget to play the

01:14:51.289 --> 01:14:54.050
viola between being backstage and walking on

01:14:54.050 --> 01:14:56.369
stage. Like in those, that one minute I would

01:14:56.369 --> 01:14:58.710
forget how to play, which is obviously not the

01:14:58.710 --> 01:15:01.569
case, you know, but like I. I definitely understand

01:15:01.569 --> 01:15:03.869
that fear because I used to. Yeah, I definitely

01:15:03.869 --> 01:15:08.649
understand it. So with mental practice, first,

01:15:09.029 --> 01:15:10.710
there's so many things I could talk about. First

01:15:10.710 --> 01:15:12.289
of all, the thing that convinced me actually

01:15:12.289 --> 01:15:13.729
that mental practicing was worth doing because

01:15:13.729 --> 01:15:15.449
I'd heard about it for years before I started

01:15:15.449 --> 01:15:16.729
doing it. And I thought it was an utter waste

01:15:16.729 --> 01:15:18.829
of time. Like you said, it was like so far down

01:15:18.829 --> 01:15:21.909
the list. It wasn't on the list. But I read a

01:15:21.909 --> 01:15:24.250
study that I talk about in my book where they

01:15:24.250 --> 01:15:27.510
had non -musicians learn to play a very simple

01:15:27.510 --> 01:15:31.680
scale up and down on the piano. um and half the

01:15:31.680 --> 01:15:33.220
people like actually practice it on the piano

01:15:33.220 --> 01:15:35.640
half the people mentally practiced it just like

01:15:35.640 --> 01:15:38.340
imagined themselves playing it and in addition

01:15:38.340 --> 01:15:40.479
to testing how well they could play this thing

01:15:40.479 --> 01:15:42.840
at the end of the study they were also looking

01:15:42.840 --> 01:15:45.359
at their brains because there was research that

01:15:45.359 --> 01:15:47.060
had come out prior to the mental practice study

01:15:47.060 --> 01:15:50.279
that found in string players that the part of

01:15:50.279 --> 01:15:51.979
the brain that controls the left hand fingers

01:15:51.979 --> 01:15:53.880
which is the hand we use on the instrument that

01:15:53.880 --> 01:15:56.220
part of the brain gets bigger as a result of

01:15:56.220 --> 01:15:58.340
the training that string players go under we

01:15:58.340 --> 01:16:00.600
now know that any body part, essentially, that

01:16:00.600 --> 01:16:02.739
you use intensively, the way string players use

01:16:02.739 --> 01:16:04.020
our left hand fingers, the part of the brain

01:16:04.020 --> 01:16:06.260
that controls that body part gets gets bigger.

01:16:06.359 --> 01:16:08.960
So in pianists, it's both sides of the brain

01:16:08.960 --> 01:16:11.180
that control the hands that are bigger. So anyway,

01:16:11.260 --> 01:16:13.520
in the mental practice study, they hypothesize

01:16:13.520 --> 01:16:14.800
that the part of the brain that controlled the

01:16:14.800 --> 01:16:16.699
fingers and the people that were actually practicing

01:16:16.699 --> 01:16:18.760
physically on the piano would get bigger over

01:16:18.760 --> 01:16:20.619
the course of the study. And the question was,

01:16:20.659 --> 01:16:22.380
would anything happen in the mental practicers?

01:16:22.460 --> 01:16:24.720
And what they found was, yes, the part of the

01:16:24.720 --> 01:16:26.220
brain controlling the fingers in the physical

01:16:26.220 --> 01:16:27.680
practice group got bigger, like they thought,

01:16:27.739 --> 01:16:30.220
but part of the brain controlling the fingers

01:16:30.220 --> 01:16:32.260
in the mental practice group got bigger to almost

01:16:32.260 --> 01:16:34.920
the exact same extent as the physical practicers,

01:16:34.960 --> 01:16:37.619
which just blew my mind when I read it because

01:16:37.619 --> 01:16:40.159
like they changed the actual physical structure

01:16:40.159 --> 01:16:42.100
of their brain just by thinking about it. Right.

01:16:42.159 --> 01:16:45.079
That is just like, that's just wild to think

01:16:45.079 --> 01:16:47.319
about. Right. And I read that and I was like,

01:16:47.380 --> 01:16:49.060
okay, maybe there is something to this mental

01:16:49.060 --> 01:16:51.100
practice thing. If you can actually change the

01:16:51.100 --> 01:16:53.680
physical structure of your brain, like maybe

01:16:53.680 --> 01:16:56.229
it is actually doing something. So then I started

01:16:56.229 --> 01:16:58.729
reading more about the research on mental practice

01:16:58.729 --> 01:17:01.710
and what has been found over and over, especially

01:17:01.710 --> 01:17:04.689
in musicians and athletes, is that when people

01:17:04.689 --> 01:17:07.270
only do physical practice, it's not nearly as

01:17:07.270 --> 01:17:09.850
effective as doing both physical and mental practice,

01:17:09.949 --> 01:17:13.130
that you just make a lot more progress when you

01:17:13.130 --> 01:17:15.729
do mental practice, which is, I think, the opposite

01:17:15.729 --> 01:17:18.649
of what a lot of people would think certainly

01:17:18.649 --> 01:17:21.010
was the opposite of what I thought when I started

01:17:21.010 --> 01:17:24.949
reading the literature. Um, so yes, it's very

01:17:24.949 --> 01:17:26.590
important, but also I think people don't know,

01:17:26.630 --> 01:17:28.930
like, what is, what is it? Like, what is mental

01:17:28.930 --> 01:17:32.250
practice? Like, how do you do this? So when you

01:17:32.250 --> 01:17:35.010
mental practice, you want to be able to imagine

01:17:35.010 --> 01:17:38.649
as vividly as you can in your mind, all of the

01:17:38.649 --> 01:17:40.850
aspects of playing, all the sound -based things.

01:17:40.869 --> 01:17:42.189
So like, what does it sound like in terms of

01:17:42.189 --> 01:17:43.970
pitch, quality of sound, dynamics, phrasing,

01:17:44.010 --> 01:17:45.810
like all the sound -based things? Can you imagine

01:17:45.810 --> 01:17:48.930
that? And then all of the physical things. So

01:17:48.930 --> 01:17:51.770
can you imagine, you know, for you guys as pianists,

01:17:51.770 --> 01:17:54.229
like what your two hands are doing? what keys

01:17:54.229 --> 01:17:56.770
you're playing, where your hands are on the keyboard,

01:17:56.869 --> 01:17:58.250
what you're doing with the pedaling posture,

01:17:58.489 --> 01:18:00.850
like all of the physical aspects that go into

01:18:00.850 --> 01:18:04.090
playing. Like, can you imagine that? And you

01:18:04.090 --> 01:18:07.909
can actually solve problems in your mind and

01:18:07.909 --> 01:18:10.930
they will be solved on the piano. So if you are.

01:18:11.770 --> 01:18:13.689
Let me give a piano specific example. I'm not

01:18:13.689 --> 01:18:15.989
a pianist at all, but that's fine. Like maybe

01:18:15.989 --> 01:18:17.789
you have something in your left hand where there's

01:18:17.789 --> 01:18:19.310
a large leap. That's something that happens all

01:18:19.310 --> 01:18:21.170
the time, right? In the left hand. And you are

01:18:21.170 --> 01:18:24.489
constantly missing it. Can you, in your mind,

01:18:24.529 --> 01:18:27.329
feel where your hand needs to go for chord number

01:18:27.329 --> 01:18:29.569
one and then chord number two? Can you imagine

01:18:29.569 --> 01:18:31.390
that? Can you see the keyboard in your mind?

01:18:31.430 --> 01:18:33.029
Because the visual aspect, right, is really...

01:18:33.310 --> 01:18:35.949
important. Can you see the keyboard in your mind

01:18:35.949 --> 01:18:37.930
and know where you're going? Can you feel your

01:18:37.930 --> 01:18:40.729
hand go from here to here? If it's a chord change,

01:18:40.930 --> 01:18:42.449
can you feel, okay, this is the shape of this

01:18:42.449 --> 01:18:44.130
chord. This is the shape of this chord over here.

01:18:45.090 --> 01:18:48.010
Can you feel, okay, my fingers are on these notes

01:18:48.010 --> 01:18:50.710
on the first chord. Now I'm jumping here. I can

01:18:50.710 --> 01:18:52.449
feel I'm in the right part of the keyboard and

01:18:52.449 --> 01:18:55.010
I can feel my fingers are on the right keys.

01:18:55.310 --> 01:18:57.770
And you can do repetitions in your mind, just

01:18:57.770 --> 01:18:59.850
like that. Just like we talked about earlier,

01:18:59.930 --> 01:19:02.710
like you do in real life. Can you feel it? Can

01:19:02.710 --> 01:19:04.829
you see it? Can you hear it? That, okay, maybe

01:19:04.829 --> 01:19:06.630
it's a C major chord and you're going to a G7

01:19:06.630 --> 01:19:09.170
chord. Let's say, you know, can you hear that?

01:19:09.510 --> 01:19:12.649
And at first the answer might be no. The answer

01:19:12.649 --> 01:19:14.810
is probably going to be no because mental practice

01:19:14.810 --> 01:19:16.829
takes practice. It might be like, wow, that's

01:19:16.829 --> 01:19:18.770
really fuzzy. Or sometimes people will be like,

01:19:18.829 --> 01:19:22.989
okay, I can hear it, but I cannot feel it. Or

01:19:22.989 --> 01:19:26.090
I can see the keyboard, but I can't really feel

01:19:26.090 --> 01:19:29.430
my hand moving very well. And that's fine. That's

01:19:29.430 --> 01:19:32.130
normal. The more you try to imagine it, the more

01:19:32.130 --> 01:19:35.390
you sort of really like focus on trying to feel

01:19:35.390 --> 01:19:37.130
that thing or hear that thing. It will start

01:19:37.130 --> 01:19:40.270
to clarify in your mind. I also find that it

01:19:40.270 --> 01:19:42.390
helps people to go back and forth between the

01:19:42.390 --> 01:19:44.949
instrument and imagining. So maybe like play.

01:19:45.689 --> 01:19:47.729
chord number one, play chord number two, then

01:19:47.729 --> 01:19:50.029
try to imagine what you just did, then play it

01:19:50.029 --> 01:19:51.949
again, then try to imagine what you just did.

01:19:51.989 --> 01:19:53.710
So going back and forth in that way can help

01:19:53.710 --> 01:19:57.869
clarify it. And then in terms of how I actually

01:19:57.869 --> 01:20:00.869
use mental practice, I have just sat down and

01:20:00.869 --> 01:20:02.770
done like a block of mental practice. I've mental

01:20:02.770 --> 01:20:04.630
practice for so many hours on airplanes over

01:20:04.630 --> 01:20:07.449
the years. Traveling. Yeah, traveling. Exactly.

01:20:07.590 --> 01:20:09.609
When you can't actually play. But most of the

01:20:09.609 --> 01:20:12.329
time, the way I use it is within my normal practice

01:20:12.329 --> 01:20:16.060
session. So whatever I'm working on, I will try

01:20:16.060 --> 01:20:18.880
to imagine it first and imagine it correctly,

01:20:19.079 --> 01:20:20.699
that I can hear it and it sounds the way I want,

01:20:20.739 --> 01:20:22.479
that I can feel that I'm doing it correctly.

01:20:22.880 --> 01:20:25.439
If I can't and I can tell I'm making mistakes

01:20:25.439 --> 01:20:27.479
in my mind, I try to fix it in my mind, like

01:20:27.479 --> 01:20:30.520
we were just talking about. Once I feel like,

01:20:30.560 --> 01:20:32.239
okay, yes, I can do this. It sounds right, feels

01:20:32.239 --> 01:20:34.199
right. Then I do it on my instrument. And sometimes

01:20:34.199 --> 01:20:36.119
it feels great on my instrument. Okay, let's

01:20:36.119 --> 01:20:38.600
go practice something else. Other times I learn

01:20:38.600 --> 01:20:40.020
something from my instrument. I'm like, oh my

01:20:40.020 --> 01:20:42.159
gosh, I forgot to pay attention to this detail.

01:20:43.020 --> 01:20:45.699
of it in my mind and it kind of surprised me

01:20:45.699 --> 01:20:47.779
on the instrument. So then I'll put it into my

01:20:47.779 --> 01:20:49.939
brain again, imagine it again with that detail

01:20:49.939 --> 01:20:52.239
that I had left out. Once that's in there, then

01:20:52.239 --> 01:20:54.859
I sort of put it back on my instrument. And what

01:20:54.859 --> 01:20:57.340
I found is that once things are clear in my mind,

01:20:57.460 --> 01:20:59.319
they're clear on the instrument. If I can't imagine

01:20:59.319 --> 01:21:00.840
it, I can't really play it very well either.

01:21:01.060 --> 01:21:03.960
That's a great, great way to do it. Yeah, yeah,

01:21:03.979 --> 01:21:06.060
yeah, yeah. You have to first imagine how it's

01:21:06.060 --> 01:21:08.220
supposed to sound and what all the details and

01:21:08.220 --> 01:21:10.239
then do it. Yeah, execute it. Right. Yeah, yeah,

01:21:10.239 --> 01:21:13.800
yeah. Yeah. Wow. I mean, there's so much. I mean,

01:21:13.840 --> 01:21:16.380
we are running out of time, so we have to keep

01:21:16.380 --> 01:21:19.779
going. But it's all these wonderful things. But

01:21:19.779 --> 01:21:23.899
what made you really decide to pursue neuroscience?

01:21:24.820 --> 01:21:26.920
Yeah, I mean, it was sort of an accident. So

01:21:26.920 --> 01:21:29.520
as an undergrad, I went to Oberlin College and

01:21:29.520 --> 01:21:31.680
Conservatory. And I only for undergrad, I only

01:21:31.680 --> 01:21:34.220
applied places really where I could do a double

01:21:34.220 --> 01:21:36.359
degree in viola and something because I'd always

01:21:36.359 --> 01:21:38.439
really liked school. I'd always really liked

01:21:38.439 --> 01:21:40.340
academics. I've always had a lot of interests.

01:21:40.939 --> 01:21:44.880
I didn't know what I wanted to major in. So many

01:21:44.880 --> 01:21:46.680
things are interesting to me. So I just wanted

01:21:46.680 --> 01:21:48.940
to go somewhere where I had that option. And

01:21:48.940 --> 01:21:51.039
so I went to Oberlin knowing I was going to be

01:21:51.039 --> 01:21:53.060
viola performance major and something. And then

01:21:53.060 --> 01:21:55.340
my freshman year, my first semester there, I

01:21:55.340 --> 01:21:58.640
took this neuroscience class that looked interesting

01:21:58.640 --> 01:22:00.260
in the course catalog, right? I was just like,

01:22:00.319 --> 01:22:01.760
oh, this looks like a great class. Okay, I'll

01:22:01.760 --> 01:22:04.520
sign up. And instantly I was hooked. After like

01:22:04.520 --> 01:22:06.000
two weeks of class, I was like, this is the most

01:22:06.000 --> 01:22:07.439
interesting thing I've ever learned about in

01:22:07.439 --> 01:22:09.199
my entire life. This is what I want to major

01:22:09.199 --> 01:22:12.420
in. So I didn't have any plans to combine it

01:22:12.420 --> 01:22:14.039
with music. I just wanted to learn about it,

01:22:14.079 --> 01:22:16.579
right? I was at Oberlin. Because I wanted to

01:22:16.579 --> 01:22:18.380
be double degree in something, I found what I

01:22:18.380 --> 01:22:20.899
wanted to learn about. I just wanted to learn

01:22:20.899 --> 01:22:24.380
about it. And then when I got, I went to NEC,

01:22:24.479 --> 01:22:27.420
New England Conservatory for my master's, not

01:22:27.420 --> 01:22:29.300
intending obviously to do anything with neuroscience

01:22:29.300 --> 01:22:31.539
because I was in a conservatory. And I got to

01:22:31.539 --> 01:22:34.619
NEC and I pretty quickly in my first semester

01:22:34.619 --> 01:22:36.899
realized that I really missed the neuroscience.

01:22:37.770 --> 01:22:40.750
And I looked into NEC has partnerships with other

01:22:40.750 --> 01:22:44.510
like universities in Boston. But as a master's

01:22:44.510 --> 01:22:46.930
student and having to travel across the city

01:22:46.930 --> 01:22:48.770
to get to another school and just like the orchestra

01:22:48.770 --> 01:22:50.409
rehearsal schedule, like it just wasn't going

01:22:50.409 --> 01:22:53.670
to work on a practical level. So I talked to

01:22:53.670 --> 01:22:56.779
one of my professors and I was like. am I allowed

01:22:56.779 --> 01:22:58.979
to do an independent study? Because there were

01:22:58.979 --> 01:23:01.060
things having to do with music and the brain

01:23:01.060 --> 01:23:03.180
that I had started seeing those connections when

01:23:03.180 --> 01:23:05.300
I was a student at Oberlin. I wasn't like actively

01:23:05.300 --> 01:23:07.420
connecting them, but I had started seeing sort

01:23:07.420 --> 01:23:09.560
of connections between what I was learning in

01:23:09.560 --> 01:23:11.000
my neuroscience classes and what I was learning

01:23:11.000 --> 01:23:12.760
from my teacher, my viola teacher about practicing.

01:23:13.380 --> 01:23:16.140
And so at NEC, I asked like, can I do an independent

01:23:16.140 --> 01:23:19.159
study looking into this, you know, just for myself?

01:23:19.720 --> 01:23:21.720
And the answer was yes, which was great. And

01:23:21.720 --> 01:23:24.590
so basically that semester, I just like. read

01:23:24.590 --> 01:23:27.210
everything i could get my hands on in terms of

01:23:27.210 --> 01:23:30.869
like research studies on on learning and memory

01:23:30.869 --> 01:23:33.289
um everything that i could i could find to sort

01:23:33.289 --> 01:23:35.270
of answer these questions that i had for myself

01:23:35.270 --> 01:23:37.770
about well how does this work and is there a

01:23:37.770 --> 01:23:39.949
better way to practice and it was just for myself

01:23:39.949 --> 01:23:43.489
it was just for my my own interest and then when

01:23:43.489 --> 01:23:46.029
i got to rice which is where i did my dma in

01:23:46.029 --> 01:23:49.420
in viola I was back at a research institution.

01:23:49.619 --> 01:23:51.739
So again, I asked, can I take graduate level

01:23:51.739 --> 01:23:53.100
neuroscience classes here? And they were like,

01:23:53.159 --> 01:23:54.520
why do you want to do that? And I was just like,

01:23:54.539 --> 01:23:56.039
is the answer yes or no? And they were like,

01:23:56.100 --> 01:23:59.439
I guess so. So I did, which was great. But there

01:23:59.439 --> 01:24:01.739
was a professor there, Tony Brandt. He's a composition

01:24:01.739 --> 01:24:04.939
professor who he has a lot of interest in this.

01:24:05.680 --> 01:24:07.600
connection between neuroscience and music. And

01:24:07.600 --> 01:24:10.859
he learned about my interests. And so we put

01:24:10.859 --> 01:24:13.579
together two interdisciplinary symposia on music

01:24:13.579 --> 01:24:16.000
and the brain. And as part of the first one,

01:24:16.060 --> 01:24:19.300
I believe the school asked me to teach this lunchtime

01:24:19.300 --> 01:24:21.140
series. They called it pizza and brains, the

01:24:21.140 --> 01:24:23.560
school supplied free pizza. And I would teach

01:24:23.560 --> 01:24:26.180
like a little class over lunch about anything

01:24:26.180 --> 01:24:28.119
I wanted actually having to do with music and

01:24:28.119 --> 01:24:30.539
the brain. And that's when I really started like

01:24:30.539 --> 01:24:33.199
sharing this information with other people. And

01:24:33.199 --> 01:24:35.539
I realized like, One, wow, this is really fun

01:24:35.539 --> 01:24:38.020
to like share this information. And two, people

01:24:38.020 --> 01:24:40.039
found it interesting, which maybe shouldn't be

01:24:40.039 --> 01:24:41.560
surprising, but it was kind of surprising to

01:24:41.560 --> 01:24:44.020
me that like other people found this as interesting

01:24:44.020 --> 01:24:47.300
as I did. And so that's when I really started

01:24:47.300 --> 01:24:50.020
like intentionally combining them with the sort

01:24:50.020 --> 01:24:52.819
of purpose of sharing it with other people and

01:24:52.819 --> 01:24:56.260
helping musicians. practice better um so it was

01:24:56.260 --> 01:24:58.600
kind of yeah my own personal interest that sort

01:24:58.600 --> 01:25:01.359
of by accident became this thing but combining

01:25:01.359 --> 01:25:04.979
the two what a genius idea and also it really

01:25:04.979 --> 01:25:08.539
makes sense and right yeah it does right and

01:25:08.539 --> 01:25:11.739
how much of a brain work it takes to play an

01:25:11.739 --> 01:25:14.380
instrument musical instrument yeah exactly yeah

01:25:14.380 --> 01:25:18.699
and i mean to me now it's like obvious like In

01:25:18.699 --> 01:25:20.539
order to learn something, you should know how

01:25:20.539 --> 01:25:22.100
the brain works. But I don't think that's, I

01:25:22.100 --> 01:25:23.659
mean, it certainly wasn't obvious to me before

01:25:23.659 --> 01:25:25.260
I realized it. I don't think it's obvious to

01:25:25.260 --> 01:25:29.399
most people. But yeah, learning is using your

01:25:29.399 --> 01:25:31.560
brain, changing your brain. You should know how

01:25:31.560 --> 01:25:33.920
that works to do it in a way that's effective.

01:25:34.500 --> 01:25:41.699
Wow. So we should, on some level, have this knowledge

01:25:41.699 --> 01:25:44.810
of neuroscience. I think so. I mean, I don't

01:25:44.810 --> 01:25:46.310
think I don't think you need to have like an

01:25:46.310 --> 01:25:48.130
in -depth knowledge of neuroscience. But but

01:25:48.130 --> 01:25:51.869
I do think that I mean. We are all the like owners

01:25:51.869 --> 01:25:53.550
of our own brain. Like you should know how your

01:25:53.550 --> 01:25:55.050
brain works. You should know how your body works.

01:25:55.130 --> 01:25:56.989
It's yours. You live your whole life with it.

01:25:57.289 --> 01:25:59.510
And brains are really complicated. Brains are

01:25:59.510 --> 01:26:02.569
really amazing. And having sort of a basic understanding

01:26:02.569 --> 01:26:04.550
of how the brain works, what the brain needs,

01:26:04.590 --> 01:26:06.689
how the brain learns, I think is really empowering

01:26:06.689 --> 01:26:09.470
to people because then they can understand, oh,

01:26:09.510 --> 01:26:11.649
this is hard for me because X, Y, Z, or just

01:26:11.649 --> 01:26:13.590
because it's hard doesn't mean I can't do it.

01:26:13.590 --> 01:26:16.260
It just means, you know. things are hard for

01:26:16.260 --> 01:26:18.439
people but you can the brain is incredibly flexible

01:26:18.439 --> 01:26:20.859
you can learn anything which is just amazing

01:26:20.859 --> 01:26:24.000
yeah yeah brain plasticity is that what exactly

01:26:24.000 --> 01:26:26.300
yeah plasticity is the word because i read a

01:26:26.300 --> 01:26:29.579
peak by uh andres yeah that's a great book yeah

01:26:29.579 --> 01:26:33.819
yeah yeah oh great great book wow i wish we had

01:26:33.819 --> 01:26:36.380
more time but we i just have one more philosophical

01:26:36.380 --> 01:26:40.340
thing here yes so are there do you think that

01:26:40.340 --> 01:26:44.229
there yeah opportunities for musicians who want

01:26:44.229 --> 01:26:47.810
to pursue in neuroscience? Yeah, that's a great

01:26:47.810 --> 01:26:50.750
question. I mean, I think like more and more

01:26:50.750 --> 01:26:53.670
these days, there is interest in interdisciplinary

01:26:53.670 --> 01:26:57.510
collaborative research, right? And more and more

01:26:57.510 --> 01:27:01.770
these days, research is being done on learning

01:27:01.770 --> 01:27:05.250
and memory, specifically with music. musicians

01:27:05.250 --> 01:27:07.310
and neuroscientists a lot of the older research

01:27:07.310 --> 01:27:09.329
i always felt reading it like they needed to

01:27:09.329 --> 01:27:11.449
talk to like one musician because there's some

01:27:11.449 --> 01:27:13.609
weird things in this paper that like don't make

01:27:13.609 --> 01:27:16.409
any sense from a musician's perspective but that

01:27:16.409 --> 01:27:18.189
seems to be happening more and more that there's

01:27:18.189 --> 01:27:20.789
these collaborations sort of going on the other

01:27:20.789 --> 01:27:22.930
thing that keeps happening is technology continues

01:27:22.930 --> 01:27:25.810
to advance um and so we have ways of measuring

01:27:25.810 --> 01:27:28.649
what the brain is doing that we didn't have And

01:27:28.649 --> 01:27:31.109
so we can ask much more interesting questions.

01:27:31.170 --> 01:27:33.210
We can get much more interesting answers because

01:27:33.210 --> 01:27:35.590
the technology allows us to sort of understand

01:27:35.590 --> 01:27:38.430
what's going on in a much more precise way than

01:27:38.430 --> 01:27:40.710
we could earlier when we didn't have the capability

01:27:40.710 --> 01:27:42.649
to sort of, you know, measure what's going on

01:27:42.649 --> 01:27:46.640
inside someone's head. So, yeah, I think the

01:27:46.640 --> 01:27:49.840
questions that are being asked now in the sciences

01:27:49.840 --> 01:27:52.520
around learning and memory in general and looking

01:27:52.520 --> 01:27:55.020
at musicians, I think we're asking better questions

01:27:55.020 --> 01:27:57.039
because we have the technology to answer them.

01:27:57.119 --> 01:27:59.479
And because more musicians are getting involved

01:27:59.479 --> 01:28:01.960
in this research and, you know, asking questions

01:28:01.960 --> 01:28:05.399
that are really of interest to us in terms of

01:28:05.399 --> 01:28:08.159
our day to day lives and practicing. Wonderful.

01:28:08.199 --> 01:28:10.979
Yeah. So for those who are listening and watching,

01:28:11.100 --> 01:28:13.649
please check out her book. Molly's book, Learn

01:28:13.649 --> 01:28:16.390
Faster, Perform Better, A Musician's Guide to

01:28:16.390 --> 01:28:19.470
the Neuroscience of Practicing, filled with valuable

01:28:19.470 --> 01:28:22.829
insights. And what I love about it is there are

01:28:22.829 --> 01:28:25.350
so many anecdotes that you include stories that

01:28:25.350 --> 01:28:28.670
stick with me. So you talk about your student,

01:28:28.750 --> 01:28:33.390
Evan, or the monkey story. It sticks with me.

01:28:33.430 --> 01:28:35.250
And then they're often associated with a certain

01:28:35.250 --> 01:28:38.930
aspect of the brain thing. So it's great. Wonderful.

01:28:39.229 --> 01:28:41.189
And then it's informational, but at the same

01:28:41.189 --> 01:28:43.520
time, quite entertaining too, because of those.

01:28:43.520 --> 01:28:45.539
Thank you. Yeah. It's fun. I really got, I mean,

01:28:45.539 --> 01:28:48.000
I really wanted it to be accessible. I didn't

01:28:48.000 --> 01:28:50.420
want it to be like dry and jargony because nobody's

01:28:50.420 --> 01:28:52.180
going to read that, right? Like I wanted it to

01:28:52.180 --> 01:28:54.619
be something that people could read easily and

01:28:54.619 --> 01:28:56.960
was at least somewhat enjoyable to read. So I'm,

01:28:56.960 --> 01:28:58.340
I'm really glad to hear that. And relatable,

01:28:58.579 --> 01:29:02.039
but then here's a challenge though. How can we

01:29:02.039 --> 01:29:05.960
practice this? So then I checked out your website,

01:29:06.220 --> 01:29:09.600
mollygabrianne .com and you offer courses. So

01:29:09.600 --> 01:29:12.890
tell us a little bit. I do. I try to make as

01:29:12.890 --> 01:29:14.909
many resources available to people as possible

01:29:14.909 --> 01:29:17.850
in many sort of different ways. I do have so

01:29:17.850 --> 01:29:20.050
I have a self -paced course that people can just

01:29:20.050 --> 01:29:22.210
go through themselves. It's basically it's a

01:29:22.210 --> 01:29:24.409
bunch of videos to watch and then sort of worksheets

01:29:24.409 --> 01:29:26.479
that help. walk people through like implementing

01:29:26.479 --> 01:29:28.859
different practice strategies. There's also like

01:29:28.859 --> 01:29:31.319
mini courses. If you're only interested in certain

01:29:31.319 --> 01:29:33.640
topics in the big self -paced course, you can

01:29:33.640 --> 01:29:36.420
just get that. And then I also teach live online

01:29:36.420 --> 01:29:41.640
classes where we, yeah, we talk about this stuff.

01:29:41.720 --> 01:29:43.840
And my favorite part of doing the live online

01:29:43.840 --> 01:29:48.359
classes. is um doing they're on zoom and so everybody's

01:29:48.359 --> 01:29:50.039
in their own zoom room on mute and we can actually

01:29:50.039 --> 01:29:52.140
do guided practice with everybody practicing

01:29:52.140 --> 01:29:54.960
at once but everybody's on mute so you know it

01:29:54.960 --> 01:29:57.739
isn't cacophony and we can try out these different

01:29:57.739 --> 01:29:59.659
practice methods in real time and then people

01:29:59.659 --> 01:30:01.600
can see how they work and then we can talk about

01:30:01.600 --> 01:30:04.600
it you know ask questions um about it so the

01:30:04.600 --> 01:30:07.979
live i started doing them a year ago i think

01:30:07.979 --> 01:30:11.989
um And it's been really, really fun to teach

01:30:11.989 --> 01:30:15.090
those. So, yeah. Wonderful. So all the things

01:30:15.090 --> 01:30:18.529
that you can find from your website at mollygibrian

01:30:18.529 --> 01:30:22.270
.com. And also check out her amazing albums.

01:30:22.390 --> 01:30:26.270
One is Trailblazers. And also another one is

01:30:26.270 --> 01:30:29.930
Trios for Two Piano, both with Danny Holt, wonderful

01:30:29.930 --> 01:30:34.229
pianist and percussionist. Yes. Wonderful. So

01:30:34.229 --> 01:30:36.069
before we go, is there anything else you would

01:30:36.069 --> 01:30:38.750
like to? I don't think so. You asked such great

01:30:38.750 --> 01:30:40.949
questions. It was really fun. Oh, it was so fun.

01:30:41.130 --> 01:30:44.770
So, but before we go, we have to do this rapid

01:30:44.770 --> 01:30:48.189
fire questions. Yes. I'm ready. Alrighty, let's

01:30:48.189 --> 01:30:51.569
go. What is your comfort food? Oh my God. Chicken

01:30:51.569 --> 01:30:54.229
soup. That's a good one. How do you like your

01:30:54.229 --> 01:30:57.069
coffee? I don't drink coffee. Oh, do you, are

01:30:57.069 --> 01:30:59.970
you a tea drinker? I drink water. I'm very boring.

01:31:01.940 --> 01:31:05.119
That's okay. I do drink tea on occasion, and

01:31:05.119 --> 01:31:07.300
I like chamomile tea. Oh, that's a nice one.

01:31:07.380 --> 01:31:11.340
Yes. Yeah. Cats or dogs? Cats. Sunrise or sunset?

01:31:11.659 --> 01:31:14.439
Oh, man. Both? Am I allowed to say both? No,

01:31:14.439 --> 01:31:18.000
you, of course. Summer or winter? Winter, 100%.

01:31:18.000 --> 01:31:21.039
I love winter. Oh, me too. Yay. What skill have

01:31:21.039 --> 01:31:22.899
you always wanted to learn but haven't had a

01:31:22.899 --> 01:31:26.239
chance to? I would love to be fully fluent in

01:31:26.239 --> 01:31:28.159
another language. I've learned a number of languages,

01:31:28.239 --> 01:31:29.779
but I'm not fully fluent in anything, and I would

01:31:29.779 --> 01:31:32.260
love that. What is your word or words to live

01:31:32.260 --> 01:31:35.060
by? I mean, something I say more than anything

01:31:35.060 --> 01:31:37.500
else when it comes to practicing is experiment

01:31:37.500 --> 01:31:42.159
on yourself. Nice. Yeah, I would say, I mean,

01:31:42.180 --> 01:31:45.899
my words to live by in terms of my life is that

01:31:45.899 --> 01:31:48.899
like nobody is going to protect your well -being

01:31:48.899 --> 01:31:50.359
and your health if you don't do it yourself.

01:31:50.680 --> 01:31:53.039
So protect your well -being and your health.

01:31:53.199 --> 01:31:55.659
Oh, yeah, that's a good one. What is the most

01:31:55.659 --> 01:31:58.399
important quality you look for in other people?

01:31:58.909 --> 01:32:03.670
Oh, man. I would say, let's see. I would say

01:32:03.670 --> 01:32:08.210
integrity and curiosity. Now, next one may be

01:32:08.210 --> 01:32:11.489
the most difficult one. Name three people who

01:32:11.489 --> 01:32:14.810
inspire you, living or dead. Oh, geez. I can

01:32:14.810 --> 01:32:19.829
only name three? I know. Oh, man. Okay. Let's

01:32:19.829 --> 01:32:23.609
see. I have to pick only three. It can be a group

01:32:23.609 --> 01:32:26.149
of people, too. Okay. Okay. Okay. So group of

01:32:26.149 --> 01:32:30.029
people, all of my viola teachers. All of the

01:32:30.029 --> 01:32:32.569
viola teachers I've had since I was a kid, actually,

01:32:32.609 --> 01:32:34.970
every single one of them, their voices are in

01:32:34.970 --> 01:32:37.729
my head in a good way, not in a beating me down

01:32:37.729 --> 01:32:41.989
way, in a good way, in terms of helping me, you

01:32:41.989 --> 01:32:44.649
know, work my way through whatever I'm playing.

01:32:44.710 --> 01:32:47.109
So all of my viola teachers, for sure, sort of

01:32:47.109 --> 01:32:53.520
in my head. I would also say one of my... neuroscience

01:32:53.520 --> 01:32:55.539
professors at Oberlin. His name's Mike Luce.

01:32:55.800 --> 01:32:58.420
He, I really enjoyed his classes, but he was

01:32:58.420 --> 01:33:01.220
also my advisor. And whenever I would go in for

01:33:01.220 --> 01:33:03.439
advising, I didn't really need advising. I knew

01:33:03.439 --> 01:33:05.079
what classes I was going to take and what I wanted

01:33:05.079 --> 01:33:06.800
to do, but he would always ask me really great

01:33:06.800 --> 01:33:08.279
questions about, well, why do you want to take

01:33:08.279 --> 01:33:09.319
this class? And what do you think you're going

01:33:09.319 --> 01:33:11.000
to get out of it? And just like that kind of,

01:33:11.060 --> 01:33:13.779
you know, he just was really curious and made

01:33:13.779 --> 01:33:15.779
me think more about it. So that I've always kind

01:33:15.779 --> 01:33:21.340
of held that sort of with me. And then, um, A

01:33:21.340 --> 01:33:23.819
third person, I would say Larry Radcliffe, conductor

01:33:23.819 --> 01:33:27.539
at Rice for many, many years. He was the conductor

01:33:27.539 --> 01:33:30.340
when I was there. And I just learned so much

01:33:30.340 --> 01:33:35.899
about music and life and treating people well.

01:33:36.079 --> 01:33:38.960
And yeah, just I learned a lot from Larry. Name

01:33:38.960 --> 01:33:41.920
one piece in your current playlist. Oh, man,

01:33:42.060 --> 01:33:48.119
just one. Let's see. I've been listening to a

01:33:48.119 --> 01:33:51.850
lot of Bach. recently, actually, which is, you

01:33:51.850 --> 01:33:54.170
know, very, very standard and something that

01:33:54.170 --> 01:33:56.069
I've been obsessed with the Bach Chaconne for

01:33:56.069 --> 01:33:58.069
forever. That's such kind of a standard answer,

01:33:58.189 --> 01:34:01.750
but it's such an amazing piece. And for violists,

01:34:01.750 --> 01:34:03.810
we sometimes play it. It's not as standard for

01:34:03.810 --> 01:34:06.649
us as violinists, but that's sort of been my

01:34:06.649 --> 01:34:09.579
sort of. pet project recently is learning the

01:34:09.579 --> 01:34:11.380
Bach Chaconne. It's been a bucket list piece

01:34:11.380 --> 01:34:14.399
for me. Do you have to transpose to another key?

01:34:14.880 --> 01:34:18.300
Yeah, we play it in G minor rather than D minor.

01:34:18.399 --> 01:34:22.180
And some of the chords are too big for my hand,

01:34:22.239 --> 01:34:24.260
so I've had to re -voice some of them. I don't

01:34:24.260 --> 01:34:25.859
know that I'll ever play it publicly, but that

01:34:25.859 --> 01:34:28.920
doesn't matter to me. So yeah, I've had to make

01:34:28.920 --> 01:34:30.579
some modifications so that I can physically play

01:34:30.579 --> 01:34:33.659
it. I would love to hear it on viola. It's really

01:34:33.659 --> 01:34:37.510
great. It's really great on viola. love it on

01:34:37.510 --> 01:34:41.170
on viola wow so last question fill in the blank

01:34:41.170 --> 01:34:46.449
music is blank music is blank these are hard

01:34:46.449 --> 01:34:51.739
um music is, let's see, I would say music is

01:34:51.739 --> 01:34:54.020
a celebration of life. How's that? Yes, sounds

01:34:54.020 --> 01:34:57.560
wonderful. Thank you. Wow. This concludes the

01:34:57.560 --> 01:34:59.779
episode of The Pianophon. A heartfelt thanks

01:34:59.779 --> 01:35:02.079
to you, Molly, for joining us today and sharing

01:35:02.079 --> 01:35:03.979
your incredible stories, insights, expertise

01:35:03.979 --> 01:35:07.880
with such authenticity and joy and making this

01:35:07.880 --> 01:35:10.520
unknown territory sound so fun and engaging.

01:35:10.899 --> 01:35:13.699
So to our wonderful listeners, you can learn

01:35:13.699 --> 01:35:16.279
more about her and her work by visiting her website

01:35:16.279 --> 01:35:19.550
at mollygabrian .com. We'll list all the links

01:35:19.550 --> 01:35:21.430
in the show notes. And of course, thank you to

01:35:21.430 --> 01:35:23.689
our faithful listeners for tuning in today. If

01:35:23.689 --> 01:35:25.409
you enjoyed today's episode, please give it a

01:35:25.409 --> 01:35:28.310
thumbs up and subscribe to The Pianopod on YouTube.

01:35:28.609 --> 01:35:30.750
Don't forget to share and review this episode

01:35:30.750 --> 01:35:33.569
on your social media and tag The Pianopod. For

01:35:33.569 --> 01:35:36.149
the latest piano news updates, be sure to follow

01:35:36.149 --> 01:35:38.649
The Pianopod on Substack, TikTok, and LinkedIn.

01:35:38.850 --> 01:35:41.189
I will see you for the next episode of The Pianopod.

01:35:41.310 --> 01:35:43.409
Bye, everyone. And thank you, Molly, once again.

01:35:43.890 --> 01:35:51.180
Thank you for having me. Thanks for watching!