you Welcome back to another episode of the Pianopod,
everyone. Today, I am thrilled to welcome José
Ramos Santana, a pianist internationally acclaimed
for his interpretations of Spanish and Latin
American piano music. A Juilliard -trained virtuoso,
José has performed as a soloist with major orchestras,
including the New York Philharmonic, Royal Philharmonic
Orchestra, and Detroit Symphony Orchestra, and
has graced prestigious concert halls around the
world. His artistry and dedication to Spanish
music earned him a special recognition for the
Isaac Albany Medal, an honor acknowledging his
contributions to the genre. In addition to his
performing career, he is a devoted educator serving
on the faculties of New York University and the
Hart School of Music. In this episode, we'll
explore the rich world of Spanish piano music.
What makes it so distinctive? how regional influences
shaped its development, and the pivotal role
of ethnomusicologist Felipe Pedrell in defining
its nationalistic style. José will also share
insights from his work with the legendary and
late Alicia de la Locha, one of the greatest
Spanish interpreters, and truly a legend among
legends. Her influence on Spanish piano music
is unparalleled, and we'll discuss how her mentorship
shaped José's artistic approach. Beyond Spain
will take a deep dive into Puerto Rican classical
music, a tradition that remains underrepresented
in the broader classical world. José will highlight
key composers, discuss the connections between
Puerto Rican and Latin American musical styles,
and share how his Puerto Rican heritage informs
his artistry. His journey from growing up in
Puerto Rico to training at Juilliard and establishing
himself as a leading concert pianist offers a
fascinating glimpse into the life of an artist,
navigating both tradition and innovation. As
an educator, he continues to shape the next generation
of musicians and will hear his thoughts on the
evolving landscape of classical music and the
challenges young pianists face today. Before
we begin, I want to share something new with
you. Every Friday, I publish a blog on Substack
where I go beyond the podcast, offering personal
reflections, behind -the -scenes insights and
thoughts on music, creativity, and the evolving
role of classical musicians. If you enjoy these
conversations, I invite you to subscribe at thepianopod
.substack .com for exclusive content and deeper
discussions. Now, let's dive into this incredible
conversation with José Ramos Santana. Please
enjoy the show. You are listening to The Piano
Pod, where we talk to the brightest minds in
the industry about how they are bringing the
piano into the future and thriving in a complex,
ever -evolving world. Welcome to The Piano Pod,
Jose. It's such a pleasure and honor to have
you on the show. Thank you. It's my pleasure
and my honor to have you as a host. Thank you
for having me. Oh, of course. And then I know
you're in like a New York tri -state area. Yeah,
in Connecticut. Connecticut. Well then, thanks.
So thank you for joining me on this cold and
icy February morning. You know, I've always been
fascinated by Spanish music. It's instantly recognizable.
You know, the moment you hear a piece by any
Spanish composer, say, you know, Granados or
whatever, even if you don't know the name of
the composer, you know, that's a Spanish music.
Right. Right. Yeah. And then there's just incredible
fusion of folk traditions with regional diversity
and classical structures and then annex. Really
expressive passion and rhythmic vitality. That's
really, I feel like sits it apart. So I've also
been really always drawn to Spanish culture in
general and the language, poetry, and the cinema,
you know, they have such a amazing cinematography
list of films that they have. And then, so I
really liked the. The way that these films really
capture something raw and deeply human and emotionally
intensive, just like Spanish music. So today
I am absolutely thrilled to explore the world
of Spanish piano with you and someone who has
truly lived and breathed this repertoire. And
of course, I'm excited to talk about. Puerto
Rican music and composers, which I am yet to
learn. And this amazing music of your homeland.
So let's start by getting to know you a little
better. So you've received numerous accolades
and performed on some of the world's most prestigious
stages and distinguished Steinway artists yourself.
You are undoubtedly one of the most celebrated
pianists. from Puerto Rico, but in your own words,
can you tell us, if you were to capture the essence
of your artistry, mission, and passion in just
a few sentences, how would you define who you
are as an artist today? Well, I am an amalgamation
of many things because my artistry, I was very
privileged, very lucky to have had the last...
I guess, part of the 19th, 20th century tradition
of musicians, you know. When I was born, it was
the time that Pablo Casals was in the island
and he brought that, you know, his own tradition.
Some of my teachers had studied in Europe before
the Second World War. So... Akin to the Spanish
culture, two of my teachers have studied first
at the Real Conservatorio de Música de Madrid
and then to Ecole Normale, which was first founded
by Alfred Cortot. So saying that, some of my
teachers were... became very much influenced,
and they studied with people like Ricardo Viñes,
who was one of perhaps the most famous first
interpreters of Spanish music, although he lived
in Paris at that time. And in Spain, they studied
with, or they were associated with Fernandez
Arboz, who was one of the notable... conductors
of the Sinfonica de Madrid at that time. I think
one or two of them studied with a lady called
Lola Rodriguez de Aragon, who studied with Anton
Rubinstein. So there was, you know, this influence.
And the Spanish music was always a very strong...
kind of definition in my upbringing. So therefore,
I think that I, and I loved it. So I think that
my mission is to continue that with that old
tradition. And of course, later on, I met Alicia
de la Rocha and so on and so forth. As you said,
the Spain culture and the Spanish tradition in
me was deeply rooted. And so I feel that I'm
a conduit for the new generation from this point
of view. That's part of my mission. My mission
is also to educate young generations of pianists.
And right now, for example... I started in Puerto
Rico, Puerto Piano and Strings for Puerto Ricans
and also international students to come to the
island and just participate in this wonderful
festival with international and national artists.
So I think that this is what I want to make sure
that... I establish, you know, as my legacy and
as my mission. Also, again, I've been very fortunate
and I'm very thankful for life. I've had great
teachers in my background from Puerto Rico to
the end of my studies. They all carry a tradition
that is lost. And so anyway, I feel that I am
a link to that old tradition of artistry in the
piano. Thank you so much for sharing. So speaking
of Spanish music, so let's really dive into this
wonderful world of Spanish music that is still
yet to be played, should be played more often,
I feel like. It's still the mainstream is the
German and French school and the post -romantic
of Rachmaninoff and so on. But Spanish music,
I feel like it's underrated still. Right. So
Spanish music is often associated with flamenco
and guitar, but there's so much more to it. Can
you walk us through the diverse regional influences?
Yes. For example, let's start from the north.
You have typical dances. And, of course, the
Basque country has their own language, but the
Basque have their very complex rhythmic dances.
One of them is called Sorzico, which, by the
way, Albanians wrote a piece based on that. It's
5 -4, 1 -2 -3 -4 -5, 1 -2 -3 -4 -5, 1 -2 -3 -4.
It's a kind of unstable rhythm like that, but
it's very beautiful. And then you also have the
Galician. which comes from Gales and Wales and
the British Isles, so that they also have their
own musical language and dances typical of their
region. Then if you go down, you have, well,
to the east you have the Catalan, the Catalonian
ones. Also, it's an amalgamation of Spanish and
French and Basque. Then you have Aragon, which
you have the famous Jota, which you can find
in this Spanish Rhapsody. That's the main theme
is the Jota, from famous Jota. And you have Jotas
also in some of the Albanian Iberia. You find
the Jota in Malaga, the first of the fourth book.
And then, of course, the ones that we know most
as Spanish music is flamenco, the south, the
Andalusian. And that's an amalgamation of flamenco,
gypsy, and... But there are also rhythms, for
example, in Manuel de Falla and harmonies that
are not flamenco. They are basically Moorish.
So it comes from the Moor culture. which runs
sort of, I guess, parallel to flamenco, but it
dates even farther back than flamenco. So I think
those are the ones, you know, different regions
of Spain that you can identify as Spanish music.
Those are the cultures, the general musical languages
you'll find in the peninsula. Yeah, fascinating.
Yeah, as I was studying a little bit more about
Spanish music for this episode, I'm learning
a lot more. I've known Spanish music, the background
of it, but just the historical background is
so fascinating, right? Right, yeah, it is. So
then I come across this name, Felipe. Pedro?
Yes. Ethnomusicologist. I think he holds the
key to this quote -unquote Spanish piano music
because he's the one who influenced three big
names you mentioned. Bernice... Granados and
the Fire. Can you tell me the background of this
story? Do you know? Well, Felipe, as you said,
he was an ethnomusicologist. And as an investigator,
he delved into all these rhythms and cultures
that the peninsula has had. And he encouraged
Balbenes and De Falla and Granados to write in
the style of Spanish language, of Spanish folk
music, Spanish tradition. So he was... a precursor
of, let's say, Nadia Boulanger, that in the 20th
century also she motivated all the composers
that went to study with her from different countries
to write in their own folkloric language, like
Copland or Astor Piazzolla, Bernstein. So he
was actually, I think, the... the first one to
recognize that the peninsula has a great cultural
tradition in music and dance and it should be
put into the composers pages you know it should
be written down as music and and of course in
the case of these people they were pianists and
um so that's how they demonstrated uh they steal
all the things through pianistic writing and
at that time you know it was late 19th century
The influence of France, Liszt, was very much
in vogue among everybody in Europe, pianist -wise.
And so they wrote like this, in this Lisztian,
super pianistic way. Right, right, right. But
also, I remember these three big Spanish... composers,
Albanese, Granados, Dafaia, they also spent quite
a long time in France. Yes. I think that that
was like the cultural center around that. Yes.
So you hear the influence of French music as
well. Oh, yes, very much, very much. For example,
I think the one that you can see the most of
this in the Iberia street is Albanese. when he
wrote it when he was living in Paris. And he
wrote it as Impressions of Spain. I'm paraphrasing,
but this is what he had in mind. And it was the
publisher who said, you know, well, let's find
a more marketing title. And why don't you call
it Iberia? But again, Albéniz concentrated in
the southern or the Andalusian rhythms of flamenco.
And distilled by the impression, I think he was
a good friend of Claude Debussy. Claude Debussy
admired his El Albacín, one of the greatest pieces
written in that period. So he had this Paul Ducasse,
all these composers at that time. had a distinctive
influence. And thanks God, because I mean, his
writing is just unique and phenomenal. He took
the impressionistic and made it his own with
this marriage of flamencos, Andalusian, Spanish
music. Absolutely. Yes. So for those who are
listening right now, we're discussing about Isaac
Albany's amazing. his masterwork, Iberia. Iberia
has four volumes and each volume, each volume
has three pieces. Correct. Right. But it's not
the little tiny dance suite or anything. It's
like each one has, is massive. Right. Exactly.
It's also a piece in itself. Yeah. Oh my goodness.
Right. Right. And then I know that you performed
all of them. It's physically extremely difficult.
It is. Because the problem is that they don't
get easier as the volumes progress. The most
difficult is the fourth volume. And the more
complex and the longer ones, like it is. It's
very difficult. It's hard to keep the concentration,
of course, the memory for that long period of
time with so many notes that he wrote. And when
he wrote it, he thought, I don't think anybody's
going to be able to play this. It's unplayable.
So there was a pianist called Blanche de Selva
that did play it. And she says, no, no, no, this
is possible. It takes work, but it's possible.
Really? Yes. Well, you know, personally, I did
book three, all of them. Yes. But I didn't perform
three of them back to back. There's no way I
could do it. It was extremely difficult, but
I fell in love with them immediately when I was
introduced. So what makes this work really special
for you? Yeah, I think it's my cultural background.
My family, I was born toward the end of... My
mother was 45 when she had me. So she was quite
old. And many of them were born when Spain was
still dominant. Puerto Rico was a colony of Spain.
And so that root of Spanish was always present
in my family. And, of course, my teachers, too,
when I developed. So that's what I felt so drawn.
Also, Spanish music seems to be very happy music.
It's the happiness of the human race, the joy
of living, and the enjoyment of this moment of
cultural... ecstasies that we have because as
you say Spain and it's so rich and so beautiful
in so many ways but you know the southern part
of Spain and Puerto Rico were very much alike
you know there's beauty in Puerto Rico too and
there's you know at that time you know as I said
we were still very much influenced from with
the Spanish culture in the island Yes. So I found
a voice with them, you know. And I was going
to say, when you said before that the pianist
education nowadays concentrates, well, I mean,
of course, the base of the pianic education,
as you say, the German, you know, romantic, even
going back to Beethoven, Haydn. So every pianist
has to do that. That's the background. That's
the base. But there are other influences that
should shape a pianist's view and education.
And let's start first with the French. You know,
for a, you don't hear for a anymore, very little.
And Debussy even is becoming not that popular.
Ravel, some works because of their pianistic
challenge. But that's another part of the pianistic
development that has to be cultivated. The other
one is, of course, the Russian music. Rachmaninoff,
Scriabin, Tchaikovsky, and all the Russian. And
that's also very, very important. And the Spanish.
Why the Spanish? Because the Spanish... Music
frees your spirit to be very creative, but yet
very disciplined. So you have to really learn
to have a free spirit within very disciplined
structures and rhythmic patterns and things like
that. And that helps, because if you're playing,
you know... I don't know, Chopin, all the Romantics,
Liszt, and even the Russians too, Rachmaninoff.
You have to have this free spirit in your playing,
but yet it has to be very, very disciplined.
So all these things, all this culture, musical
influence, share the same value from a different
point of view, different perspective. And the
more culture, I think the more you are exposed
to as a student, you grow up with that. And I
think it's great for the development of a pianist
later on when they mature. They have all these
resources to follow and fall on, you know. They
are making up interpretations about. different
styles and things like that. Absolutely. Yes,
yes, yes. So in this, you know, Iberia, all 12
movements, out of 12, 11 of them are sort of
Andalusian influence. Right. And you mentioned
you have such a deep sort of relatability or
closeness to that culture. the Southern culture,
but except for one, one is the, I think Lava
Pies is not from the Andalusia. No, Lava Pies
is a, is from Madrid. Okay. Yeah. Why is that
so hard? Yeah. Well, because if you, if you,
Lava Pies is a, it was, but it still is called
Lava Pies, but it was a kind of an ethnic ghetto.
If you want to, describe it that way, where the
gypsies used to live. But they intermingled with
other cultures, Spaniards. So it was very, very
typical. And then, of course, Madrid has their
own personalities and their own type of, I would
say, Yeah, characters. You have the characters
of the guy and the girl, the chotis, the chotis
dance, which is very Madrileña dance. And, of
course, the Paso Doble is also there. So, Lavapiés
was what Albanians remember hearing all this
confusion. It's a little bit like Charles Ives,
you know. had all these memories when he heard,
you know, all these evangelical hymns with parades
and with, you know, other hymns from the Republic
and everything together. And he, of course, in
his own dissonant, highly complicated language,
pianistically, contrapuntally. harmonically,
you name it. So Lavapiece is that type of piece,
you see, that it sort of brings this confusion.
I can imagine Malbec says, God, I remember all
that. They had like a little organ that you just
pumped like that. There was a little monkey that...
kept dancing to it, and there was somebody asking
for money, and then there was this florist selling
the flowers, and there was all kinds of things
happening, very, very colorful. And he tried
to write in notes all these dissonant sounds,
all these clashing experiences, and that's why
it is so difficult. Yes, it is. heard, you know,
many, several performances. Well, one standout
was a live performance by Yu Zhuang. She played
beautifully. But some recordings, they played
it so clean, too clean to me. It's just a miss,
it missed out the cultural, like a little messiness,
in my opinion. Well, yes, because it's difficult,
you know, you have to sort of make a choice but
whether you're going to be very very clean or
just emphasize the rhythm the one i think that
is most satisfying is de la rocha because she
has that rhythmic backbone with all this cleanness
that she used to play with and it's fantastic
how she does the proportions of sound and form
and everything sort of works for her unfortunately
the piece also lends itself to be bombastic.
And I think that's already distorting the idea
that, you know, it's not bombastic. It can be
bombastic because it's so huge. But that's, I
don't think, what Mr. Albanis had in mind. It
was just this super colorful writing, very complicated.
And you have to sort of strike a balance between
both of those. Wow. So speaking of Alicia de
la Rocha, so first of all, what was she like?
Well, she was the typical, you know, either Russian
teacher or, well, the Spanish grandmother. You
know, she was like, you know, for her, her pupils
were, you know, part of her and she took a personal
interest in each one of them. development and
their careers. And, you know, she was wonderful.
Yeah. So you actually studied with her and she
gave you love? What I did with her is I studied
the Iberian. No way. Yes, I did. Wow. Yes. I
think we did 11. There was one that I couldn't
play for some reason, but we did 11 of the 12.
I worked here with her. How special. Wow. What
stands out of all the probably advice you get?
Yes. Well, it's very funny. I like to tell this
story because when I first came to the Juilliard
School, well, in the story with Adela Marcos,
of course, she knew that I was from a Hispanic,
Spanish background, and she emphasized that I
should play this music. And at that time, I think
I only have done maybe one of the debuts. And
she introduced me to another one. Well, the Triana,
of course, and the first one, Evocacion. And
she played Evocacion in such a convincing way
when she was in the studio. Her best performance
was in the studio. There she could play like
you have never heard anything like it. What struck
me was the understanding of the style that this
lady had. She had never been to Spain, and she
had never studied with somebody from Spain. She
studied with the Levins, the Russian and German
school, Schnabel. And yet she was able to capture
the flavor, the spirit, and even the rhythmic
turns, and did it so well. that it just, I was
in awe, you know, how she did it. I think she
used to play also Andalusia from the Falla, again,
in a manner that the other person I've heard
play like that is Della Rocha. So when I went
to Della Rocha, I played some of that, and Della
Rocha said, oh, my God, you play very beautifully.
Who was your teacher? So I thought, and then
she... De La Rocha called the Academia Marshall
and told them about me and blah, blah, blah.
But so starting with De La Rocha was like a continuation
of what Marcus was doing. I remember doing once
Albaicín with her. And of course, you know, sometimes
you forget, you know, it's so complicated that
you strive for getting the notes right and clean.
And she said, no. No, no, no, phrasing, phrasing,
phrasing. It was just like, listen to Adel Marcos
teach. So it was very, very interesting, very
illuminating. She gave me some information about,
you know, what the dances are, the integrated
complexity of the dances. And, for example, she
pointed out to me La Jota in Malaga, in the middle
section. This is a hota, you know. And so you
want to see what a hota is, you go download one
of those YouTube videos of the dance in Aragon
and you see what a hota is. But she was just
wonderful, just wonderful. Wonderful to hear
that. And so, you know, obviously, I have this
personal question. As I said, I learned a few
from Iberia. And I often notice that his notation
is quite messy on the score, even the ones that
are printed on the print. I feel like some of
the notes are wrong, wrongly notated, or maybe
sometimes the accidental is missing. Well, yes,
you have to be very, very careful. The only two
editions that are... true to what the composer,
Albanius, wrote. Well, the only one, really,
is the Urtext, the German Urtext. They have it,
and all the notes in the Urtext are correct.
This is a very interesting topic, what you just
brought up, because with Beethoven and composers
like that, it was very difficult. Sometimes he
raised... wrote on top, and you didn't know what
really the notes, what he meant. But with Albanese,
when you see the script, you go to the Library
of Congress, or you go to the Morgan Library
of the Iberia, it's so clear. And how can editions
in France, like Durand, misinterpret that? I
still, it's mind -boggling. I don't know what,
they did a very sloppy job sometimes. So, it
took... somebody like de la rocha uh and and
this to say look let's let's do a real good edition
and she promoted uh you know the the real uh
note correct writing and reading of the notes
so i think she had a lot to do with with that
in there by seeing there are a lot of wrong notes
that she corrected she says no no this is not
the original this is So, and of course, you have
to really do what he did. You cannot really play
it as it's written. It's unplayable. You have
to take things into hands. You have to, you know,
and you have to voice them properly sometimes.
So you have to make it easy. For example, when
you take the one that everybody... It's so afraid,
Tiana. There are ways of playing it that makes
it more possible to play, you know, and in a
way of not affecting the music and the music
impulse or the music phrasing because of the
difficulties. So if the arrangement helps that,
why not? Really? Yeah. But that's something that
I have to learn from someone like you. Yeah.
Yes, you have to rearrange many of those pieces.
Della Rocha did too. She rearranged many of them.
Really? Yeah. Della Rocha's hands were interesting
because she had, they say small, but she had
long fingers. So she was able to, you know, when
you have long fingers, that's a plus, even though
you have sort of a small hand. But you can do
many things with long fingers. I see. You have
sharp fingers like mine, and that's more challenging.
Joseph Hoffman had sharp fingers, too, and yet
he was great and virtuoso. It's how you manipulate
the piano. I see, yes. As De La Rocha used to
say. That's interesting, and it's so true. Well,
thank you for sharing all these insights about
Iberia. I've always had big question marks about
interpretations and things like that. So just
coming from you, especially studying with someone
like Adele Marcus and then, of course, with Alicia
De La Rocha's insights, it really just all of
a sudden the music even comes more alive to me.
Right, yes, yes. And, you know, as I said, my
main teacher was Marcus, but De La Rocha, I only
studied the... I videoed with her, but she considered
me one of her pupils. I was like, honor. I said,
well, thank you so much. Oh, no, my pupils always
mean a lot to me. So keep me posted of your career.
She was so sweet. She was like a grandmother.
Oh, wow. Yes. What a great story. Yes. Yes. Wow.
So now, can we now move on to Granados? Yes.
Granados, also you, played his most famous Koyaskas
piano suite. So can you tell us what makes these
series of pieces? Well, Granados was, you know,
the improviser. All that you've seen in Page
was improvisations that he did. No way. Yes,
everything is improvisation. he decided, or somebody
I can remember decided, you have to pen them
down, you have to write them down, because they're
too precious just to left in the air. So he did.
Goyescas is based on the opera Goyescas, which
stems from Goyes painting. And so the style of
Granados is much more conventional in the sense
of... pianistic writing, you know, like more
Lisztian, arpeggios and double notes and things
like that, in a more clear way, not harmonically
as integrated. But there were two main influences
in Granados' upbringing. That was Robert Schumann
and Domenico Scarlatti. Oh, okay. Yeah. So many
of his writing has this type of scarlatian clarity
and bite to it, you know, with this very romantic,
I guess, French salon style. But Amalga, the
Goyescas is a throwback to classical Spanish
music, meaning from the classical period. Arriaga,
composers like that, which weren't that many,
but his tonadillas were all, you know, based
on classical Spanish music, not necessarily a
flamenco or Andalusian. It's different. I see.
You have a piece called Zapateado, for example,
which is, it's a part, Zapateado is, well, You
have that later on in Latin America, in Mexico,
zapateados means to dance with your foot in a
particular manner and rhythm. So even the gauchos
have zapateados when they dance. It's like a
cowboy dance, became a cowboy dance in Latin
America, but it stems from the dance with the
feet in Spain. Then you have pieces like Alegro
de Concierto or Cenas Románticas, which is very
much romantic piano music with a Spanish flavor.
That's really what it is. And also, I must say
that, you know, he was the founder of Academia
Granados. He was a pedagogue. He loved to teach.
Albanian was not much of a teacher, but he loved
to teach. And he lived in Barcelona most of his
life after he came from Paris. And he founded
this academia. He did treatises on piano playing,
technique, pedaling, production of tone and sound.
And it's very interesting because I read somewhere
that he came to the same conclusions as Theodor
Leschetizky did. in terms of approaching the
instrument. I don't think they knew each other,
but it's interesting that they both found out
this way of playing, this way of listening to
sound, which is, you know, part of the old romantic
pianistic tradition. Right, right. So that's
why you have somebody like Frank Marshall. I
was a great teacher and teaching Alicia de la
Rocha. You know, she has this approach to music,
the structure, the grandeur, the production of
the sound, the pedaling, which is not taught
anymore. You know, people just put the things,
they say it was by ear. Yes, but you have to
train the ear to hear it properly, how to play
it all. And it's a whole discipline. So Granados
wrote a trilogy on pedal, how to pedal. Wow,
that's interesting. So Alicia's teacher, Ms.
De La Rocha's teacher was Frank Marshall. Frank
Marshall studied at the academy, Granados Academy.
Yeah, he studied with Granados. He was Granados'
pupil and assistant. And when Granados died,
he, you know, he did continue the Granados Academy.
Then he called it Academia Marshall. Really?
Interesting. So with that tradition that Della
Rocha had, and then now you have the tradition
coming from her. That's very, very intriguing.
So, I mean, there are more pieces that we can
discuss, but I also want to... really get some
sort of sense of the fire from your point of
view, Manuel de Falla. And you've performed at
Nights in the Gardens of Spain. Yes, I will perform
it next year again. Oh, wonderful. That's such
a unique orchestral plus piano piece. Yes, it's
a very beautiful piece. The orchestra sets a
background of, I guess, I would call it Moorish
impressionistic sounds and textures. The piano
has more of the cantejondo, flamenco role, and
rhythms also, also colored by this beautiful
impressionistic and neo -romantic harmonies.
always, I think, considering the... He always
had the sound of the Andalusian music in his
ears, so he was able to write harmonically as
he heard the sounds. But in Fantasia Betica,
he uses some of it, but he goes back to the Moorish
tradition, which with the quarter tones... and
things like that. So he tried to imitate that
at the piano the best he could, and it was quite
successful. So to do that, do you use trills
a lot? You have to use pedaling. You have to
be very careful how you pedal to create these
harmonious overtones and blurs to give the impression
of these overtones. this Moorish instrument gave.
Wow. Yeah. He was also a musicologist inclined.
He didn't write too much. He was a very ascetic
man. He lived a very, he almost was like a monk.
And of course, he moved to Buenos Argentina at
the end of his life. But everything he wrote
was so well planned and so well thought, you
know, that note, one note. was out of place.
I see. Okay. Yes. Wow. I have yet to really learn
his pieces. I've touched upon a little bit, but
not quite. For example, the four Spanish dances,
the first one, it's a jota. It's a real jota.
The last one is a totally gypsy flamenco dance.
the taconeado and things like that. And the other
ones are, again, amalgamation of impressionistic
Cuban habaneras. Very exotic. So the Latin American
and Spain, later on, they fuse much more and
more. And so sometimes it's difficult to distinguish.
For example, the best example is the tango by
Albain. This tango and tango was brought from
Argentina to Spain and to Europe. And Albanese
immediately wrote this beautiful piece called
the tango. That's true. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The
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the piano pod. Let's move on to the 20th century
Spanish music, which you've done the complete
piano violin works by Xavier. Montsalvage. Montsalvage,
yes. It's very hard to pronounce. I know. It
means wild forest. Oh, really? Oh, my goodness.
Yeah, but his music is like a wild forest. It
is like a wild forest. Yes, right? And he has
this, some of that, I've listened to his solo
pieces as well, and then has the sort of Afro
-Cuban. Influences to? Oh, yes. There you are.
The amalgamation of Caribbean and Spanish music.
And, of course, he took the poems of Nicolás
Guillén, a great poet, and he sent them to music
with these just delicious pieces, harmonies of
habaneras and Afro -American, Afro -Cuban dance
at the last one. It's just fascinating in the
hands of a Spaniard. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Beautiful. So for my listeners, please check
out Mr. José Ramos Santana's recordings of some
of the pieces I mentioned, especially this Violin
and Piano Works by Monsalvache. Yes. Monsalvache.
And then also you have other recordings, obviously.
Oh, so yeah, I did. I recorded the Glossas piano
concerto for a piano and orchestra with the Royal
Philharmonic by my friend and colleague Roberto
Sierra, a noted Puerto Rican composer who's having
a great, great career to this day. Oh, that's
right. Yes, yes. I know the album. But didn't
you also, record like concertos like Ravel concertos
Ravel G and the Sansanji minor that's right they
are incredible and then I can't wait to talk
about Roberto Sierra but before that I kind of
want to know your upbringing in Puerto Rico and
then you know how you You discovered the love
for music. And then, you know, later on, you
moved to the United States and studied at Juilliard
with Adele Marcus. So how was music introduced
to you? Well, I grew up with my mother from in
my mother's side of the family. My mother went
back to live with them and she took me. So since
I was, you know, a baby. My aunts and my uncles,
they all loved music. They weren't professional
musicians, but they were amateur musicians. My
aunt started voice with the great tenor Antonio
Paoli, who was a very, very important figure
in Europe in the early 20th century, late 19th
century. He even sang. under Verdi, one of the
Otellos productions, I think, in Covent Garden.
So my aunt loved music, loved opera. But my other
aunts all took piano. My uncle loved music. They
were founder members of the first Pro Arte Musical
in the 1930s in Puerto Rico. That brought all
the great artists, Segovia, Rubinstein, Claudia
Rao, Jesha Heifetz to the island. They used to
stop in Cuba and then in Puerto Rico. And so
that was the background of my, when I grew up.
Then my next door neighbor moved to be a pianist
herself, her daughter. And both, actually she
started with this great pianist. She's known
as Mexican pianist, but really she was born in
Durabo, Puerto Rico, from a Puerto Rican father,
Angelica Morales Fonsauer. And Angelica was a
pupil of Emil Fonsauer, who was one of the least
pupils. So I had that next door to me, this teacher
who studied with her. I used to hear her practice.
So I started because, of course, we had a piano,
and I used to hear her practicing. I used to
go to the piano at my house and try to pick up
by ear what they were practicing. So she calls
one of my mothers. She says, wait a second. Is
somebody trying to play the Greek concerto that
I'm practicing? I said, oh, yes, that must be
my son. So anyway, she said, really? I was four
and a half years old. So she said, well, send
that boy immediately to me. So I started with
her. But I developed mostly with the Figueroa
family after a period of time. When I was seven,
eight years old, I went to the Figueroa. And
they were the ones that really, really developed
me. Carmelina Figueroa, my teacher at that time,
was... the head of the High School of Performing
Arts in Puerto Rico, the Free School of Music
is what it's called. And she studied in Paris.
She studied à l 'école normale with all her brothers
and sisters. They moved there, and they were
under the umbrella of Cortot, Casals, Thibault.
They formed the Quintet, Figueroa Quintet at
that time. in Paris, and if it weren't for Hitler
and the Second World War, they would still probably
be there. But then the Second World War broke,
and they had to come back to Puerto Rico, and
they started teaching there. So my teacher, it's
interesting, because at that time, you had people
like Dino Lipati, René Janoli, Gida Bakauer,
that went through. through the Col Normalo study
with Courtauld. But it was meant to be like a
pedagogy school, I was told. The Conservatoire
of Paris always was performing. It was the Julliard
of Paris. But Le Col was more to train good teachers.
So my teacher studied with an assistant of Courtauld,
Jeanne Blancard, and she was a great pedagogue.
So she gave me a very, very good foundation.
So when I went to the Juilliard school and I
played for Marcus, she was like, wow, you really
know how to play the piano. Who taught you? And
so I told her. And so when I went to Marcus,
I had that already, you know, under my belt.
So Marcus just really developed. and discipline
and all of that. But I had a very, very good
foundation, good training, good sense of musicality
and ear for sound and all of that. Wonderful,
wonderful. I was very, very privileged. But developing
ear is like really the priority, the most important
thing as a musician. Yeah, the most important
thing. Absolutely. Wow. And what was it like
back in Juilliard days? Well, Juilliard, they
used to call it a professional school. So it
was a very professional school. It was a big
shock for me, you know, coming from Puerto Rico
to just be in New York at that time. But my mother
moved with me. And the training that Adele Marcus
expected was... She was very tough. She was a
very tough, demanding teacher. And I'm talking
later on nowadays with my colleagues, the ones
who studied in Moscow, the Moscow Conservatory.
It was the same kind of training. You had to
be able to, you know, have pieces. I remember
I had eight works in one semester by memory.
She demanded you have to have it by memory the
second week. And it was really that type of training,
like in all Russia. But that gave me a tremendous
discipline. And, you know, later on, she was
not the most easiest person to get along with.
But later on, in the later part of her life,
we became very, very good friends. And we used
to have a... laugh and dinners and we'd talk
about music. She would hear me for hours and
she would sit down and advise me and it was wonderful.
Wonderful. And then your career as a soloist
and recording artist flourished. Yeah, flourished.
After that I immediately signed with Herbert
Barrett and then I went to several competitions.
I was a finalist in the Bacower. Then I won an
affiliate artist that gave me opportunities to
play with many symphonies across the nation,
including the New York Philharmonic, Detroit
Symphony. Yeah, so that was a good St. Louis
symphony. Good break in that time, my career.
I was very lucky. So, you know, if you ask me
then and now, it has been such a different, you
know, what... young people's faces now. And that's
from my time when I was at that age, at that
younger age. And it has changed quite dramatically,
completely, I would say. Yeah, I think so too.
Now, then... Maybe we can talk about that. You're
an educator. You're teaching currently in Connecticut.
It's a hard school. And also, you also teach
at NYU as well? At NYU, I am, yeah, one of the
artist faculty at NYU. There's such a huge difference
between the time that you spend as a youth, as
a young professional to now. Drastic difference.
Totally. As a musician, or young musician. they're
all required to have multiple different skills,
not just as a pianist. Yes. Time has changed.
Time has changed, yeah. What do you see? Well,
of course, the demands are different now, you
know, from where I was. But I believe that the
students, for example, when I was at the Juilliard
School, besides piano, I took courses on... improvisation.
I took courses on accompanying, transposition,
orchestral reading, many, many other things that
prepared me to do things that I needed to do.
I even took organ. So, you know, I was in a strand
as a musician. I needed to play for a church
once. I did it. You know, it was no problem.
So the education I got at the junior was very,
very valuable. I think we planted the seed. for
what I have become. Later on, the best education
I've really gotten is by teaching. I have learned
so much from teaching. I discovered so many things
that has really been my education. So for my
students, what I'm shocked nowadays is, I don't
know, maybe... It was like that, but I wasn't
aware. But, you know, they don't know the piano
repertoire. I remember, just to give you an example,
I had a student once who came from a prestigious
Ivy League school with a prestigious music department,
and I was shocked. I mean, things he didn't know.
I said, well, you're a pianist, you never taught.
No, what a culture you have. I said, well, I
think that... How can you be and not know those
things, you know? How can you be a complete musician
and not know the things, you know? And the same
thing, you know, with the arts, you know, I was
exposed to museums, to opera, to chamber music,
to theater. They are not. They're just very much
in the practice rooms and trying to win a competition.
And this is very stifling because especially
nowadays, if you don't win a competition, what
are you going to do? If you don't have all these
other skills developed, if you want to be in
music. So I insist on this well -rounded education
to my students. And I provide them myself. I
take them to museums. I take them to the opera.
I tell them what to listen for. Yeah, I think
this is very, very necessary. And it's lacking
in their education. It's been given, but very,
very lightly, very superficially, and not enough.
It's not integrated. into their lives, right?
And it's not realistic, but as I say, because
they only think in terms of competition. But
if that, how many people can compete and win?
One, two, three at the most? You know, that doesn't
even guarantee a career. It just tells you, you
know, a few years of concerts and then what?
See? So you have to be prepared for that. Then
what? You know, because that's going to be most
of the time of your life. Yeah. And you have
to be an entrepreneur. You have to know how to
become creative, you know. The classical music
is challenged now by pop music, which is a great
competition. So I think that in a way it's been
our fault because we've been in such a bubble,
you know, all the time that we don't realize
there's a world around us. And we have to connect
with the world and the needs of the world. And
the needs have changed. So I believe in bringing
classical music to everybody, not just an elite,
but everybody should be exposed. Because it's
such a gift to just enjoy this great universal
music. I hate to put it, classical music is a
universal music. that bind us together and things
like that. And I think there should be access
to all kinds of economic, social economic levels,
not just a privilege. Yeah, I know. And I see
that too. So even when I see, I'm raising quite
a few young, small, but talented students, but
then... they're so focused on the competitions
because that's how the industry is right now.
And not just a classical music industry, but
I think in general, if you want to get into this
school, that school, then you've got to win this
thing or you've got to score this thing. It's
not about being exposed to a different culture.
No. When I went to school, I didn't go for the
school. Once Leo Fleischer told me, what do you
think, Julia is gold? No, I didn't go for Julia
for gold or for Julia because it's gold. I went
to Julia because of a teacher. See, I wanted
to study with that person. I wanted to get that
legacy. Kids don't think this way anymore. They
just think in terms of the names of the school.
And that's unfortunate. That really is unfortunate
because this, we're not in a, this is not, I
mean, there's a certain sport. and commercial
aspect of our profession. But the root is art.
And as Adele Marcus once told me, your career
starts at the piano. Nothing else. If you're
really good at the piano, if you're really an
artist, life will take care of that. Life will
take care of it. But you have to have that first.
And this is what it's not, these young generations
don't really have in mind. It's a little bit
empty, hollow, their approach to everything.
Yeah. And later on, yeah, they discover that.
I want to go back to your roots, Puerto Rico.
So, you know, because I still want to learn about
composers. You mentioned about Roberto Sierra,
but I also know Gonzales de Jesus Nunez and then
Adeline Cruz. So can you just tell us about this
beautiful, beautiful music of Puerto Rico? So
let me tell you my view of Puerto Rico. Puerto
Rico is a nation. What by saying it's a nation
is that it has all kinds of music. I'm talking
from a musical point of view. So we have obviously
the salsa, we have the pop music, we have what
we know of Puerto Rican music, the Caribeños
music, that it's universal now. But there is
also a parallel world of... folkloric music that
has not really been popularized. For example,
the music from the mountains, the Híbaros, they
have their own way of singing, which comes from
the Canary Islands in Spain. As a root, you have
the African, Puerto Rican population, Bomba and
Plena, which is also not known so much. Having
mentioned those, let's say, three, and of course
you have the European influence from Spain and
France. Those music we had in Puerto Rico, polkas,
we had in Puerto Rico, mazurkas, and all sorts
of European form of music written by composers
from Puerto Rico. I'm talking about the 19th
century. Many of these... composers like Julio
de Arteaga and Manuel Tavares, I'm talking about
1865, 1870, 1880, went to France to study in
France at the conservatory, or people from the
conservatory. There was Marmontel, who was a
very famous piano teacher at that time. I think
he was a pupil of Kalbrenner. And this one you
mentioned, Gonzalo Nunez, who later moved to
Cuba, and I think he died in Cuba, but he was
born in Puerto Rico, started in Paris with George
Matias, who was an Englishman who was one of
Japan's pupils. Oh, I see. See? So he was supposed
to be quite a virtuoso. I think he played in
New York once in Aeolian Hall, a very old hall
that doesn't exist in ages. But he settled in
Cuba. So he wrote music, again, with kind of
Habanera rhythm, but very French Salon style,
you see. Now, Tavares was, he stayed in Puerto
Rico. daughter, Elisa Tavares, was a pianist
and she became one of the, she was like the Rosina
Levine of Puerto Rico in that time. And she studied
with Isidore Philippe in Paris. And she studied,
she played in New York too. She started an academy
of piano in Puerto Rico. Many of the pianists
of the early 20th century studied with her, Elisa.
But Manuel, her father, was the one. wrote Danza,
La Danza puertorriqueña. It was the father. The
Danza comes from the Cuban Contradance and the
Cuban Habaneras. People like Ignacio Cervantes,
Saumel, wrote in Cuba Contradances and Dances,
were just salon pieces with... a promenade for
first a section then the dance the b section
and goes back to uh this a well there's introduction
a b a that's the format uh of the danza uh in
the hands of cervantes was very very short maybe
one two pages at the most in the hands of mr
tavares in puerto rico he was three four pages
long so he you know expanded the form of dances
and uh as i say danza means to dance but it also
means to listen so it's like a masurka it's a
combination of dance and song so you can sing
it yeah so and and and and uh one thing about
cervantes even though he was in puerto rico he
was cuban he was living in paris At that time,
he studied there, and he lived near Franz Liszt.
And Mr. Liszt walked one day through and heard
this piano music, very weird, very exotic. So
he knocked on his door, and Cervantes opened
the door when he saw Mr. Franz Liszt in the footstep.
And Franz Liszt came in, and he played some dances
that he composed for Liszt. Really? No way. That's
so cool. It's cool, yeah. But Puerto Rican dancers
in the hands of Manuel Tavares. Then there was
another Juan Morel Campos that came at the same
time. He was not a pianist, but he wrote a lot
of dances for piano. And Mr. Morel Campos never
left the island. Yet he was the most prolific
and inventive. I mean, he had very, very... innovative
way, harmonic even, to impart to the danza puertorriqueña.
He wrote over 500 of them. Then in the 20th century,
that tradition of danza has been still, you know,
up to this day, I had a pupil of mine who wrote
a danza. But it sounds like a danza rita by Richard
Strauss. It's so chromatic and so, you know.
But it still has that habanera kind of rhythm,
you know. The Afro -American, the Afro -Puerto
Rican, Afro -Caribbean, and the French. So it's
fascinating. So that's one genre that the Puerto
Rican classical music has. cultivated. Then in
the 20th century, composers like Hector, Campos
Parsi, Amaury Veray, they were born in the 20s,
so they got to study either in Paris with Boulanger
or in the United States, Campos Parsi studied
at the New England Conservatory with Adam Copeland,
Irving Fine, and so they went back to Puerto
Rico. had positions of administrative and teaching
positions at the conservatory in the government,
and they wrote pieces based on other Puerto Rican
folk idioms, like la bomba and plena, which is
Afro -Puerto Rican music. Mr. Campos Parsi wrote
a plena for piano that is very, very effective.
written, the concert plan, he called it. And
then you have somebody like Roberto Sierra, who
was a pupil of all these people. And he was already
a product of when Pablo Casals founded the Conservatory
of Music in Puerto Rico. And Roberto was a pianist.
I remember him being a pianist and participating
in student recitals. But then he decided to continue.
as a composer. He went to Urdrecht in, I think,
in Holland. He studied with Ligeti. And so he
became one of Ligeti's students. And, you know,
the rest is history. He has been very successful.
Just now, Duda Mel and the Berlin Philharmonic
play some of his music. He's been recorded by
Deutsche Grammophon. And he's written a lot of
music for piano. He has, I think, 19 sonatas
for piano. No way! Sonatas for piano, yes. And
his writing has evolved tremendously. He also
has the 24 preludes, based back in Chopin's preludes.
Do you plan to play any of them? Yes, I've done
some of the preludes, too. I haven't delved into
the sonatas because they're very difficult. I
haven't at the time. But I have some students
of mine that I want them to study solo because
they're really, really wonderful pieces. Yeah,
yeah. Very, very... But my genitives, they're
very difficult, very complex. But yeah, they're
wonderful works. I need to... get the score yes
the score is available yes yes uh subito music
i think is the publisher i think yeah yes yeah
i'll check them out roberto sierra wonderful
wow so i mean all these composers latin especially
latin american music is underrated so that's
why someone like amazing artists like you is
promoting the music of Latin American music and
Spanish music as well. So, yeah. How is it going?
Actually, I teach a course for graduate students
in Latino American piano repertoire. It's part
of piano literature courses at VANS. At Hart
School? At Hart School, yes. We examine country
by country. Mexico, Brazil, Argentina, Venezuela,
Colombia, Panama. So we take a good look into
the composers that shaped the 20th century in
those countries. And we're very, very fascinated.
For example, we just finished Chavez, Carlos
Chavez, and Manuel Ponce, and the difference
between both two composers. from the 20th century
Mexican piano writing, it's really, really striking.
Not to tell, you know, the ones that are now
still alive that are very more on the aleatoristic
style and things like that. So there's a great
wealth. There's a great wealth in piano music
in Latin America. We just know maybe the frosting
of it, but there's a lot of other very... In
Argentina, there... You have Alberto Williams.
You have, well, Jose Castro. Of course, Ginastera.
And you have Osvaldo Goliov now. So, Richa, it's
another one that I'm forgetting the name. But
there are a lot of composers that have written
for piano music that is fascinating and is worth...
discovering because it's very very well written
and very and you know our ears have maybe 50
years or 70 years ago it was a little bit shocking
but now our ears have the evolution of our ears
is great has the capacity of you know absorb
this music much with more intelligence and understanding
and appreciated cultural aspects of them. Yeah.
Yeah. Wonderful. So, you know, as much as you've,
you know, become this artist and, you know, gain
your reputation and artistry worldwide, but seems
like you are giving back. to your home country,
your where, yeah, your heritage by doing a festival,
the Puerto Rico International Piano Festival,
but also promoting Latin American music as well.
Tell me a little bit. I know you mentioned a
little bit about the festival, but. Yes, I must
give a plug on my festival. It's happening. We're
going to celebrate the 10th. Oh, wow. Congratulations.
Thank you. It's held at the Conservatory of Music
in Puerto Rico, in San Juan, Miramar, which is
a beautiful conservatory. Thanks to one of my
colleagues, Maria del Carmen Hill, who fought
for it and got that building and transforming
it. It was one of the 40 most beautiful conservatories
in the American territory. And not only that,
but it's a... Old Stanway School. No way! Wonderful!
Yeah. So there are wonderful facilities for practicing,
for playing. The pianos are kept in tip -top
shape. And it's usually in the summer. This year
is going to be from June 22nd until June 30th.
And we have a roster of wonderful artists. Eduardo
Salim has been a part of it, Terry Njaparitse.
We have had Pavlina Dokowska from Manus. We have
had people like Andres Cardenas in the violin
department, Amit Pellet, a great Israeli cellist.
So we do chamber music and piano. And of course,
the Puerto Rican teachers like Maria del Carmen
Hill, who's the head of the piano department.
And this year we have Diana Figueroa Pabon, another
distinguished part of the faculty from Puerto
Rico. We have in the violin also the... Francisco
Caban, who's a wonderful pedagogue, and Luis
Miguel Rojas, although he's Venezuelan. He's
been in Puerto Rico for many years. He was part
of El Sistema, a great cellist and a great teacher.
So we also have Darrett Atkins in the violoncello
department. He's going to visit us this summer
from Oberlin and Julia. He's part of the faculty
there. So we have Manuel Laufer, who specializes
in contemporary music. So we have a wonderful,
wonderful festival. Wow. Yes. And then age is
targeting the professional age? It can be. If
it's under 18, they need to be accompanied by
a guardian or a parent. they can, you know, they
can come. And, you know, and then grads, undergrads,
you know, students. Great. Yeah, I will make
sure to list the link in the show notes. Yes,
that would be great. Yeah, it's the one everybody
goes, they love it because they fall in love
with the history, the culture of the island,
the performing facilities. And the teaching that
is very intense, but it's excellent, excellent.
I did this because there was a lapsus in where
I hear my colleagues from Puerto Rico, oh my
God, you know, the piano department is not what
it used to be. You know, we're not producing,
we're not getting students. So there was a shift
mostly for opera and there's a great voice talent
in the island. I think the piano was a little
bit abandoned. So I thought, well, let me see
if I can infuse them with a new innovation of
doing a festival for the conservatory. And it
has created a lot of enthusiasm. And some of
the kids from the conservatory have proven that
they have come here. One of them is studying.
at the Eisler Conservatory School in Germany,
in Berlin. The other ones has been here in NYU
and Mannes. So we're beginning to see, you know,
local students cross and become very, very competent
pianists. Oh, wow. So that's, I'm very happy
about that. Great. So is there any upcoming concert
you have or any recording that you want to do?
Let's see. Well, I'm supposed to go to, we're
also working in Spain with Barcelona and Zaragoza,
the conservatory. So I'm supposed to go there
and give master classes. I'm going to Shanghai,
China. Yes, I was there last summer and had wonderful
connections, especially the Shanghai Conservatory.
And so that's coming up. My festival is coming
up. And I'm playing the Knights in the Garden
of Spain with the Puerto Rico Symphony of Defiance
next season. So I have a few things to look forward
to. So my audience can check out your website
to get the latest news. Your website is at JoseRamosSantana
.com, correct? Absolutely, yes, yes, yes. Great.
Well, it's been a really wonderful conversation.
It's almost time for us to go. Thank you so much,
Jose, for really joining. But before I forgot
to tell you, we usually do a little rapid fire
questions before we go. They are silly questions,
but every guest has to do it in order for them
to be dismissed. So I want you to answer them
as short as possible. And they are really just
a trivial question. So let's start with one.
First question. What is your comfort food? Oh,
my comfort food is Puerto Rican food. Oh, yes.
How do you like your coffee in the morning? I
can't live without it. I cannot live without
it. You cannot live without it. Puerto Rican
coffee. Okay. Are you a cat person or dog person?
Both, but I tend to be more cats. Summer or winter?
Oh, summer. We need to get out of this miserable
winter. Yes. Okay. Now, level two. What skill
have you always wanted to learn but haven't had
a chance to? To be an artist, a painter. Oh.
What is your word to live by or words to live
by? Don't lose your focus and don't lose your
faith. Great. What is the most important quality
you look for in other people? Innate goodness,
integrity, innate honesty. Name three people
who inspire you, living or dead. That's hard.
I know. Just whoever comes to your mind. Well,
one of them is Mr. Casals, Pablo Casals. I admire
him greatly. Great respect for him. My teacher,
Del Marcos, was a great, great influence. I'm
very thankful for her. And the last one is, I
would say, well, my mother. Wonderful. Great.
So last question. Fill in the blank. Music is
blank. Music is life. Beautiful. Great. This
concludes the episode of The Piano Pot. A heartfelt
thanks to you, Jose, for joining us today. Thank
you. And then to our wonderful audience, you
can learn more about Jose and his work by visiting
his website at joseramosantana .com and start
listening to his incredible recordings. And then,
of course, thanks to our... Faithful fans and
listeners for tuning in today. If you enjoyed
today's episode, please give it a thumbs up and
subscribe to the PianoPod's YouTube channel.
And don't forget to share and review this episode
on your go -to podcast platform. I will see you
for the next episode of the PianoPod. And thank
you so much, Jose, once again. Thank you very
much for your opportunity. It was a pleasure
to be with you. Oh, thank you, Jose.