Welcome back to another episode of the PianoPod, here, tradition meets innovation.
We bridge the timeless beauty of the piano with the dynamic pulse of today's world.
I am your host, Yukimi Song.
So during the summer, I was searching for some incredible talent in our industry for
the new season.
And after posting about it on social media to help us find guests to interview, I was
able to create quite an incredible guest lineup for the season.
Thanks to our faithful listeners like you, who took the time to fill out the nomination
form.
Well, one of my dear colleagues and good friends, a classical pianist and educator and a web
designer for fellow musicians, Poki Huang, also took his time to fill out the guest nomination
form for the show.
And today's guest was nominated by him.
A huge shout out to Poki.
Thank you.
Hope you are listening.
By the way, the guest nomination form is still up on our website.
I will list a link in the description as well.
But I would love to invite exceptionally talented artists and educators and entrepreneurs who
are pioneers in our industry for captivating interviews.
Whether you are recommending someone or it's a self-nomination, we sincerely welcome insights
into why they or you would be an ideal fit for the show.
No story is too small and every individual's voice is valuable.
So get in touch with us by filling out the form.
Look for the link in the show notes.
Let me finally introduce today's guest.
She is here to dive deep into a super timely topic, classical musicians and entrepreneurship.
We will also be exploring her program, the Fearless Artist Mastermind.
Michelle Lin is an artist who enjoys a wide and varied career, whether on stage performing,
delighting audiences across Europe, speaking at events or giving lectures on entrepreneurship.
Michelle is a Canadian pianist and singer entrepreneur and a lecturer of entrepreneurship.
She co-founded the Fearless Artist Mastermind, a professional development program that guides
clients to cultivate their careers and achieve financial stability.
Her zone of genius is getting to the root of the real problems and asking hard questions
in a kind way.
Michelle is full of enthusiasm and optimism and believes that artists deserve to earn
a good income and should never be their own ceilings.
She holds positions as lecturer for music entrepreneurship at Conservatorium Maastricht
and Cold Arts University for the Arts in Rotterdam.
She graduated from University of Montreal with a master's and artist diploma in piano
performance.
Before starting this episode with Michelle Lin, I want to welcome all our first timers
to the piano pot.
I'm a classical pianist and educator from New York City.
Whether you're diving deep into a piano career working professionally in the classical
music scene or simply have a passion for piano tunes, this podcast is your backstage pass
to the fascinating piano world.
I also want to welcome back and thank you for amazing TPP fans and faithful listeners
for tuning in today.
Please rate and review the show on your favorite podcasting platform because every rating review
will help people find my show.
So dear TPP fans and listeners, I can't wait to interview Michelle to discuss practical
topics like how we make a decent living as musicians and learn what the fearless artist
mastermind is all about.
Stick with me till the end of our conversation as it will lead to a more reflective discussion
on how we train classical musicians should keep our industry relevant and thriving in
today's rapidly changing world.
So here we go, dear friends.
Please enjoy the show.
You are listening to the piano pod where we talk to the brightest minds in the industry
about how they are bringing the piano into the 21st century.
Welcome Michelle to the piano pod.
I know you're yeah.
Thank you for being here.
I know you're originally from Canada, but you're currently you live in in the Netherlands,
right?
That's correct.
Yeah.
What's like living in Europe?
I'm sure it's nice to be able to travel around, you know, to different countries on the on
the same continent by train.
Yeah.
Living in Europe is a blast.
I always say that when I grew up in Grand Prairie, Alberta, I had drive five hours to
get to the next city.
And here if I go anywhere within five hours, I'm either in Amsterdam or Paris or Brussels
or Cologne or Italy or it's it's wild and I really love it.
Oh my gosh.
It's a dream come true as an artist.
So I checked out your Instagram account, first of all, and came across this post.
Being a musician is not only about being good at your instrument.
It comes with a whole set of complicated situations that can arise and that may be the people
around you won't understand, which can make you feel alone and isolated.
So there's a lot to unpack here, right?
What is your thought on our unique situations and challenges that regular people, as in
people outside of our industry who can't really relate to?
What do you think?
As creatives, we are a special breed of person.
And a lot of people who do the nine to fives, as you're saying, just maybe won't understand
our lifestyle that, you know, if we have performances, it requires an enormous amount of unpaid preparation.
We do this because we are passionate, we do it because we love it.
There also is a lot of fear that may come in that we're dealing with on a daily basis
that people don't know about.
And so when they ask uncomfortable questions, sometimes out of curiosity, oh, what do you
do all day?
Well, that can be a very triggering question for someone who's trying to figure out what
to do all day in order to build a career or, you know, if people say, oh, how do you pay
your bills?
And maybe you had a lower income month because you're freelancing.
And so people who maybe have a perfectly healthy intention of just getting to know you can
unintentionally push all your buttons.
And I think that's what I found early on when I was starting out trying to build my career,
trying to figure out what life could look like.
If I had made the right decision, not pursuing a doctorate in the University of Montreal
where I did my master's degree, I chose to come to Europe instead.
And then it just comes with a lot of questions.
I mean, we're doing our best to figure it out as we go.
And that's why I really believe in the importance of community and finding other creatives to
surround yourself with because they understand what we're dealing with.
They're not going to ask you, do you really sit at the piano all day or how are you going
to make a living?
Or, you know, and then you can actually talk about obstacles that you're facing and find
solutions together.
Yeah.
And I also checked out your website for the Fearless Artist Mastermind, which you co-founded
with your colleague.
And it says, we help ambitious musicians earn more money and build a career they love.
I love it.
So straightforward.
Earn more money.
E-M-M. I wanted to scream because it's like really such a simple thing, but necessary
for many musicians.
And then as you said, you know, our lifestyle, like prepping time is not being paid.
I feel like sometimes just by sitting in front of the piano or computer to create something,
not getting paid, I feel like although I'm working hard, I feel so lazy because I am
not earning money.
Interesting.
Yeah.
So debunking the stereotype of musician, you know, musician being poor or musician's life
is so important.
And also not just debunking the stereotype, but I think our mindset, I think that's
more important toward our lifestyle, but also toward money.
So.
Yeah.
I love that you're saying this.
I teach entrepreneurship at the university here and I tell them almost every class, we
are not starving artists.
We are thriving artists and you're going to learn to look for opportunities.
You're going to be fearless.
That's our, you know, our brand name, of course, but it means you put yourself out there without
worrying about what people might think or how they're going to judge you.
And you look for the opportunities and you pursue them and you pick up the phone.
You don't wait for the phone to ring.
And by doing that, by default, you will earn more money.
So when we say we're going to help you earn more money, what we're really saying is we're
going to help unlock the fear that you have and how you have been your own ceiling and
how you have told yourself you're not good enough and how you haven't tried to even reach
out to that person because you're scared that they're going to reject you.
And we're going to coach you through that mindset, as you just said.
And then once you get there and you start to believe that what you have is so valuable,
you need to go out into the world and share it.
Then you are the one seeking out people that you can work with.
And of course, when you have a good fee and you set your prices, then money comes, right?
It's not necessarily about the money, but we want to create a sustainable way for artists
to live because without the money, you can't pay your rent.
So it's not that it's about the money thing, but it's just that we want to be able to continue
to make good music and good art.
Yeah.
But why not money, right?
Why can we talk about money?
Because it's very important to, we're not asking for billions of dollars.
We're asking for decent income that can sustain a decent lifestyle.
I've learned to kind of temper my response because I know people get offended so easily
about this thing.
So I'm like, well, you know, we're not saying you have to see it as a business.
It's not for profit, you know, but it is.
Of course, yes, we deserve to earn as much as any other working professional does.
Yeah, sure.
Right.
So I would love to know your program, the business.
So they're Fearless Artist Mastermind.
I love the name and it's very straightforward.
So what is it?
And then when did you start?
Yes.
The Fearless Artist began in 2020, one month before lockdown.
We had no idea what was coming and ended up launching this online virtual, essentially
professional development for classical musicians.
So we work with our clients in a variety of ways, either through our membership, which
is group calls, group coaching, and a community.
We also do shorter programs, a six week program called Six Week Sprint.
And that's when you have something that you want to do, need to do, but even putting it
off because you're overwhelmed and busy with everything else.
So it's like, I need to write this press release or this grant or release this album or prepare
this recording.
And it's just not happening because I'm too busy.
A lot of our clients have ended up building their website, for example, in those six weeks.
And then we do a longer version of that called the Mastermind, which is four months of just
giving people structure.
I think a lot of freelancers lack structure and having that accountability and checking
in with people and saying, this is where I'm at and this is where I'm going.
And it just really provides a framework for creatives.
So through that, we've worked with hundreds of clients all over the world in the last
three years and just continue to develop these online sessions, which have, I think, been
a wealth of encouragement, support, learning, and just like a very healthy community, I
would say.
So what exactly is the mission?
Maybe I'm repeating the question, but I want to know.
And what was missing from the industry that made you start the business?
Yeah, that's a great question.
For me, when I finished my studies, I had learned how to play the piano really well,
and I had learned history and harmony and how to write counterpoint.
No one ever said, here's how to find students and here's how to pitch for a concert and
here's how to create an online digital space where people could find you and be interested.
And I knew I had to have a headshot in bio, but it was always a little bit like, that
ick feeling of like, oh, I don't want people to judge me and I don't want to be seen and
I don't want to be so vulnerable and why do we have to be in the spotlight?
And I'd rather just do my thing and quickly learn that if you want to build a career,
that's just not going to work.
So Deanna is my co-founder, as you mentioned, she studied at Juilliard and was living in
Paris for 10 years.
And we just realized there's so much out there that musicians don't know how to do.
We were not taught this in school.
We're sitting around waiting for the phone to ring.
So we were like, we need something to help teach people how to take initiative.
And through that, we had done a mastermind with some of our Juilliard colleagues, loved
the concept and I had had some experience facilitating already.
So we just thought, let's see what happens.
We'll put out an offer.
And I made one Instagram post and we had 10 signups right away.
People were just like, there was a need for this.
They were like, yes, get me into a community where I can just be accountable to someone
and talk through what I'm going through.
Because again, as we started this call, most people don't understand us.
You need people who understand you.
So from there is really just built and developed.
Yeah.
And then also interesting because you're not from Europe, but you live in Europe.
And then also your partner, Diane or Diana?
Diana, yes.
Diana, I'm sorry.
Diana is also from the United States.
Yes.
She's now relocated to Minnesota where she's from, but she was over here for 10 years.
Oh, so your partner is not in Europe.
She just moved three months ago.
So we're still adjusting to time zone differences and all that great stuff.
But yeah, she's just moved back.
Wow.
But the starting point was you both are foreigners in Europe.
And so probably that perspective contributed to the business or the reason of starting
the business, you think?
Yeah.
We definitely connected because of our shared expat common.
We met because I'd went to Paris to audition to play in her quartet.
And from there, we just really connected.
And I think as an expat, when you find another expat over in Europe, definitely you're more
likely to become friends.
And just because we understand each other culturally, we just instantly had a lot in
common.
So I think that definitely contributed.
A lot of our client base is in US, Canada.
But additionally, many have come from Europe as well because this entrepreneurial mindset
is growing and developing, I think, rapidly over in Europe now too, especially in the
Netherlands.
I'm teaching this course now at two different institutions.
And I think that that's a really great sign that it's starting.
The tide is turning and good things are coming.
Wow.
I just didn't realize.
I picture myself being Europe because I studied there for once, two summers in actually Austria.
And it feels like being a classical musician, musicians being very respected in the community,
in the country.
And then I don't know about Canada, but in the United States, there's the issue with
the health care.
I mean, every single thing you do, you have to earn.
The government isn't, oh, there's grants and everything, but it's very difficult to get.
But in my imagination, in my impression was that in Europe, it's so much easier to live
as a classical musician or freelance musicians.
Depending on where you live, I know in France, they have a program for artists where as long
as you show that you have a certain amount of, they call them cashes, so gigs per year,
you apply for this program and you show that you have work, then they will subsidize days
that you don't have any work so that you have consistent income coming in.
And some of my friends applied for that.
It takes a time to build up your portfolio just to demonstrate that you're at that certain
level, but it is there.
And then in the Netherlands, there's definitely subsidies for low income and housing subsidies
and healthcare subsidies because we pay for healthcare here.
It's quite expensive.
And then I think that really helped me in the beginning to be able to establish myself
and start to figure out how to do it while building my teaching studio.
I taught piano for seven or eight years full time for income stability while pursuing other
projects so that I knew that I could pay my bills because you need to be able to figure
out the baseline.
Right, right, right.
So that's why I was surprised because with all these support that you are able to receive
from the government, but still then people are now more asking for the lifestyle of entrepreneurship,
like they want to learn in Europe too.
Yeah, I mean, I think it's about creating opportunities that fulfill you, intrinsic
satisfaction, right?
So, I mean, a lot of people are looking for that fulfilling career.
And I think that's why we chose art in the first place, because you have a passion and
you want to connect to something deeper.
So yeah, I can't speak for every country because I only have experience with the Netherlands
and France, but I think definitely it would be more doable here than maybe the States,
how your situation is there.
Let's talk about your business itself.
You told me about the six weeks and also other group sessions as well.
So can you tell us walk us through in details?
So do you also have solo coaching as well?
Yes, we do have one-on-one coaching.
I have a few clients on one-on-one and I really love that because then we can go really deep
and say, what is it that you're going after?
Really get clear on goals, look at any possible opportunities that you have and how to...
I think time management is one thing, but energy management is a whole other ball game
when you're at a certain level of success, because then the opportunities are coming
in and you have to start to make decisions.
Am I going to say yes to everything because I'm used to saying yes to everything because
I really needed the money or am I going to start to say no to things that don't interest
me as much in order to make space that I can say yes?
And then there's a certain level of risk involved in that.
So I think that's where coaching can be really helpful because you have someone on the outside
giving you perspective and also just helping you clarify what you're actually going after.
And then we have our membership, as I mentioned, I think we have 15 members right now currently
and we meet twice a month on a group call and discuss different issues.
We usually have a coaching exercise that we walk people through, whether it's setting
your next two weeks to look like your ideal two weeks or what are you struggling with,
any discussion that might arise.
And then people have individual hot seat where they can bring a very specific problem or
obstacle and share that.
So all sorts of things come up, relational difficulties in an organization or how to
set your fees or finding more students or getting stuck in a certain tech area, not
knowing how to start a podcast.
Anything that can come up and then the group kind of jumps in and helps steer that person.
Also a lot of emotional stuff will come up too, you know, dealing with difficult colleagues
or finding healthy routines while traveling has come up recently as well.
That was a good one.
And then it's just really interesting.
I think you learn so much hearing people discuss topics like this that can also benefit you.
Yeah, but it's so nice that you're providing the platform because usually, like I said
before, you feel very isolated from the rest of the world.
It's professional in many ways, especially as a pianist, right?
Because we are not part of any group, any orchestra, any chamber.
Well, sometimes chamber, but sometimes it's temporary thing.
And mainly, we are really focused on our instruments.
And so, you know, having to have that platform, be part of it and then feel like you're not
alone.
That's very important.
Yeah, exactly.
I mean, I am definitely a people person.
And when I was in University of Montreal, you know, we would all practice on the same
floor.
We would have lunch together.
We would chat in the hallways.
So you have your people, you've got your bubble, you've got your crew.
And then to leave that all at once, it was a shock to the system, you know, and it was
kind of devastating to me personally as a very extroverted person.
So you need that, like walk down the hallway and you say hi to everybody kind of thing.
And so this is a virtual way to do that.
And I always leave the calls feeling really refreshed and like, okay, I'm so glad we got
to connect with these wonderful artists.
So how exactly are you helping fellow musicians?
You may be mentioned a little bit, but we do teach and give information, but we're much
more about execution in the fearless artists.
We are way more interested in making sure everyone leaves with something very specific
that they're going to take action on like today.
Because I think a lot of musicians are sitting on a wealth of information.
They actually do know what to do, but there's some reason underneath why they haven't gotten
started on it, whether it's overwhelmed, not knowing where to start or fear.
So I would much rather that you glean one thing from a workshop with us and that you
go put it into practice than if you have like a beautiful PDF slide that gets lost in your
computer that you never look at again, right?
So also with my classes, this is really the approach that I'm taking.
I've learned to give them less information and ask them way more questions.
Where are you at?
What's helpful for you right now?
Where are you thinking about this?
And I think that's what we really do with our coaching is asking people, what specifically
are you struggling with?
Because we can talk all day about content strategies and finding more followers and
getting fans and starting a concert series.
But unless we know why you're not taking action on that, it doesn't matter how much to-do
lists we create for you, you're still going to be stuck.
So I think that's really something that sets us apart.
That's really great to know.
And I think usually it really comes from the fear, but also not knowing who you really
are sometimes.
Yeah, definitely.
Like what sets you apart as an artist?
And we're kind of all taught you need this unique selling point.
And that kept me paralyzed for years.
I'm like, oh no, I need to think of something special about me.
What is this special something?
And then finally I realized, and now I'm teaching this to my classes, you are already unique.
You already have strengths and skills and passions that no one else has.
So if you can discover what's already inside of you and then develop it and pursue it and
craft it and then combine it with your passion at your instrument, you instantly set yourself
apart in the market and you'll discover a wealth of opportunities that fit that role.
For example, you have your podcast.
I've used you as an example in my class before.
You're a pianist who's a podcaster.
Now you're not fighting against 5,000 other pianists.
You're differentiating yourself immediately by saying, this is what I do and this is how
many people you've been able to connect with because of your podcast.
So it's a great example of how when we choose something and find a problem in the market
and step into that as a solution, we instantly find our place.
Oh my goodness.
I just feel like I'm empowered by your encouragement.
I needed to hear that.
No matter how many times you try to encourage yourself, sometimes doing these kind of work
is usually by yourself.
And it's like one episode at a time and as much as we believe in delayed gratification,
but we're human, so we want to see instant gratification as well.
I get that.
I mean, it's very hard, you know, the drop in the ocean and to say, okay, one more drop
today.
But it is that consistency over time that people start to recognize who we are, what
we stand for, talking about the same subjects and over and over until the message gets out
there.
You know, there are people who need to hear this.
I want to really find out how we can earn a decent income.
What's your advice?
I think I saw somewhere you mentioned that diversifying our income.
So can you elaborate on that?
Yeah, it's something we like to call a portfolio career.
So just as when you have an investment portfolio, you're investing in different stocks and different
gold and whatever, it's the same idea for your income.
Then you think of or create five income streams for yourself.
And when I first heard this concept, it was like, whoa, like you just instantly you feel
kind of expand.
And so at the time all of my income came from, you know, I was accompanying in a singing
studio.
Okay, that's a few hours a week.
Then I had a few piano students.
Okay, then I had some gigs, background gigs, and then I had concerts, which I separated
in my head.
And then I was, I think I was trying to figure out the fifth one, like, okay, what else can
I do?
Oh, then I started teaching singing lessons.
Okay.
So I started teaching singing lessons for experience of income.
So, you know, just like starting to look for it trains your brain to look for possibilities.
Then there can be things like, you know, renting out a room in your apartment as Airbnb.
Well, that's a couple hundred a month.
Or then you realize that you know multiple languages and that there's someone who needs
translation help.
Or you're really good at tutoring math to high school kids for a few hours a week, or
you can teach ESL online or, you know, we really encourage our clients looking at your
strengths and skills because we're creative.
You have so many things that you're good at, is there a way to earn from that?
And then things like, you know, buying, putting a little bit aside every month into stocks.
If you can do that and you start young enough, we'll just start now anyway, even if you're
not young enough.
But by the time you're 67, that compound interest is going to be very much on your side.
And then for those of us who are creatives, you know, we don't have pensions, for example,
you know, my parents are always so worried about my pension.
Then it's like, well, don't worry, because when I'm 67, if the compound interest, you
know, we can look historically at the stock market, it'll be there.
Just walk it away, don't touch it.
A few, like a hundred a month or whatever it is that you can put aside now.
So I'm teaching this to my students too.
And like, you guys are 20, get in on this, because that's a way to set yourself up, future
you.
You know, I think this portfolio career is also about looking at protecting and taking
care of the future version of you.
And an artist, we learn scarcity mindsets, like we're grabbing at our pennies and we're
looking at right now when we can't think ahead and we don't know how to plan for longterm.
And I think that also comes from a lot of artists who do different programs every year.
Well, I'm going to do a master's here, then I'm going to apply to this school.
I'm constantly moving around and jumping from teacher to teacher.
And so we never learned to really settle and put in roots and grow.
And that was also, even after I chose to live in Europe, I was still kind of thinking, well,
you know, I don't know how long I'm going to be here.
And then it just prevents you from really grounding yourself.
So yeah, all of those things combined, I think.
And so then, for example, when you look at your other strengths and skills, like, you
know, I realized quickly leadership was something that I had as well as speaking.
So then workshop facilitation, I actually started in a different industry doing a few
hours in this and then quickly realized it was something I enjoyed.
So then changing it and bringing it into my music world just seemed very natural.
And now we have a whole business around it.
So giving artists the possibility and permission to look outside of their immediate focus and
seeing how money can be coming in.
It's like giving four legs to your table provides stability.
And there is no shame in earning money outside of music.
And I think it's smart to earn money outside of music.
It has nothing to do with your artistic status.
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Now there's like sort of a misconception of the word business.
And every time I talk to my colleague, some colleagues and say, you know, they use the
word business.
Oh, and then they said, oh, I don't do business.
I'm an artist.
They try to separate.
Right.
So but then I said to them, the word business is it's just a simple financial transaction.
You provide certain service, whether that is a teaching or performing.
And then in return, you get paid for that business transaction.
So I'm not saying I'm not trying to sound like a snake oil business man here, but you
know what I mean?
So that's actually the start, I think, to demystify or debunking that sort of mindset.
Yeah, you said at the beginning, like getting rid of these mindsets that don't help us.
I mean, I think the connotation behind that is that if you think about art as a business,
then you're taking away from just doing art because it's something that the world needs
and it's human and it's about connection and all of those things are still true.
And we would like to continue being able to do them.
So therefore, it would be nice if we could pay our rent and live.
So, I mean, it's kind of nice to just have both in mind.
And I think it doesn't have anything to do with your intention over why you're practicing.
And we are still practicing very long, unpaid hours.
So you know, there you go.
You are also teaching this entrepreneurship at university currently in two conservatories
in the Netherlands.
Yes.
Finally, I wish I learned this when I was in graduate school because nobody taught me
about how the real life does look like as an artist.
Right, freelance.
Do you teach throughout the semester?
I don't know if the semester terminology semester makes sense to you in Europe, but yeah, our
the two conservatories have the curriculum set up differently.
So one of them just has 16 lessons and we just kind of go weekly through a curriculum
that we've created with seven pillars.
The pillars include things like marketing, setting your fees, negotiating, freelance basics,
IP copyright, which is, you know, maybe you don't touch on so much for classical musicians,
but we also have pop and jazz students that are being taught.
And then we have mindset pillar, which is of course, extremely important.
And then, you know, kind of the entrepreneurship mindset, like how do you start thinking like
this?
How do you start being someone who's training yourself to think in opportunities and not
to say everything that's going to go wrong?
That's very impressive.
And so there is a sort of lectures, but also there are some practical exercises that you
provide throughout the semester.
Yeah, I mean, as I shared about the coaching, I really take the same approach with teaching
the students.
So we have assignments that they need to do, but kind of in the class, I'm talking to them,
I'm asking questions, we're having discussions.
And I'm also learning from them, you know, hearing from how things are on their end.
And if they are where they are at in their mindset, and I'm finding very happily that
a lot of them are further ahead than our generation was.
So they are like, well, yeah, of course, a musician has to be an entrepreneur.
Like, of course, we need to think about how we're going to earn a living.
And we're like, okay, awesome.
Keep that.
Oh, that's great.
So what's the reaction from students by taking your class?
I just finished yesterday an intense two weeks basic courses called and it just finished
on a really high positive note.
I was just buzzing when I left because at the beginning, they're maybe unsure.
But what I really love to do is I have a whole list of what I call limiting beliefs.
And I'm like, you might be thinking dot dot dot.
I don't have time for this.
I need to practice.
I'll figure this out when I'm done school.
I'm not a business person.
I'm a musician.
I don't like putting myself in front of people and I'm uncomfortable.
I hate social media because it's cringy or I compare myself.
You know, I've got this whole list of things.
And then I say, okay, who believes anything on this slide?
And then of course, like, all the hands go up and then we talk about it and we say, okay,
why do you think that?
It's much more than we need telling them like you shouldn't think like this.
It's saying like, okay, this is how also I thought for a long time, some things I still
struggle with.
Then we talk about, you know, fixed gross mindset.
Fixed mindset is that like all or nothing, black or white, right or wrong, good or bad,
not good enough.
That's part of a fixed mindset.
Like an entrepreneur needs a gross mindset because you're going to have to look at there's
room at the table for everyone.
I don't need to get a piece of this pie.
I'm going to bake my own pie and I'm going to find a place in the market that suits my
skills and strengths.
And so then when I start kind of giving them these mindset shifts, you can see their eyes
light up and then we talk about their individual strengths and skills.
What are you good at?
What interests you?
We bring up the concept of Ikegai, fulfillment of purpose.
Then I get them to share in the class and you know, then they're just kind of bouncing
off each other because again, that community aspect, community learning I think is so crucial.
And then the classes can be really fun because now we're just having a conversation about
how exciting your life could look like as an artist and how you're going to be able
to sustain that and being around people who understand you.
And I think it's really this feeling of connection and belonging.
Wow.
Thank you so much.
You're welcome.
I mean, you have to ask them.
I mean, maybe this is just my impression.
You know, you can ask them on the feedback form.
Did you actually like your class?
I don't know.
I should let them talk to themselves.
Yeah, maybe that's the next step.
Like you know, asking for what is a Google form and yeah, exactly.
But that's great, but how did you get into this teaching at university?
Was the university open to this idea?
They actually had the position open up.
So they had the course running for a few years already.
But to my understanding, it was just very basic in the sense that they were teaching
taxes and how to send invoices.
So the course had a little bit of a bad reputation as being just super dry and boring.
And then my current colleague started building a different curriculum.
She's in marketing for an opera school in Spain.
So then she brought in a lot of curriculum around marketing and branding and you know,
Seth Godin's work on the Purple Cow, for example, and started teaching that.
And then it just became bigger than a one person job.
So they opened up the position and I had two people send it to me and said, this is you,
apply.
And I was so excited.
I was teaching a piano lesson and I just like ran out and I was on the phone and it was
someone who had called me and I was like, what?
I can't believe that the job's open.
And the fearless artists have been running for about a year.
So with that in mind, I could just show them, look, like this is our work with our clients.
And then it was just a really good fit for both of us.
Wow, that's amazing.
Yeah.
I would love to sign up for your unit class.
We used to teach exclusively online and then I could just let you sit in on the team's
call.
Yeah.
I mean, I would love that.
And then I hear that there are some classes or course open up at higher education here,
like music institutions, like I don't know, Juilliard or I don't know about MSM, about
entrepreneurship or music business.
Yeah.
I actually was just on Chris's podcast, Honesty Pill.
Maybe you know him, he's in LA.
And I saw he was giving a guest lecture at Juilliard in their entrepreneurship class.
So I know that there's something going on there.
Wow.
Yeah.
I mean, I think that's a good time.
But also having to have this internet access to especially Instagram, Facebook, that sort
of thing, allowing us to be more independent, right?
You don't have to have an agent to represent you.
You can be your own agency and represent yourself.
Yeah.
You might be familiar with Bernhard Keras.
He's over here in Vienna, but he has an entire, his business is called Be Your Own Manager.
And he's got great courses for musicians.
He actually taught the class that I teach at now too, he's done a workshop for us.
And he's really talking about how to differentiate yourself as an artist and pursuing what you
love and building a career that you love.
And he's got a great book and it outlines everything that you should be taking care
of on the business of music.
So I really recommend that.
Now, I'm curious to know you as a musician.
You're not only a classical pianist, but also a singer too.
And I watched the videos playing traditional piano repertoire, like Mendelssohn and other
pieces, but also I've listened to your original songs on Spotify.
So did you grow up in a musical family?
Yes, definitely I did.
They would not say that I did, but I did.
My dad played drums in a country band for 10 years and my mom started me at the piano
when I was four and my dad and I were always singing.
So music was always on in the home and I grew up, like I can sing every lyric to every country
song in the nineties.
And then just years and years of doing music festivals and performances and recitals.
I had a great teacher that started me, very encouraging, wonderful.
And then she handed me off to someone who was more advanced, who pushed me and got me
going into this more intense version of piano playing that we both know.
And yeah, from there it just continued.
But I also took singing lessons, classical singing until I was 14.
But I remember when I was young, I told my mom I wanted to be a country singer when I
grew up.
So it's always been in me to be this kind of other genre singer.
And so it's coming out now.
Well, that's sweet.
I like the contrast between the classical music and the country songs.
But country music as in, I don't know, is it a country music that I'm thinking of?
Oh, like typical North, like American country music.
Totally.
Oh, yeah.
Wow.
Okay.
I mean, no, I'm writing songs that are more in like a contemporary pop style, I would
say.
But just knowing that that was my upbringing is just fun to think back now.
Yeah, that is very interesting.
But somehow, you know, you're not really separating your identity like that.
You're trying to merge everything together because that's who you are, no?
Yeah, well, that's actually like a recent discovery because I think in the past, I have
tried to hide like, oh, my singing side, I've just kind of pushed it to the side or it's
like this other thing that I do.
And now I'm learning much more like, if we're going to talk about what makes you stand out,
you know, it's not every pianist who can also sing and play.
So that's something that that's an individual thing and I love to do.
So I'm learning to embrace it.
I'm learning to embrace even though it's a different genre and you have all of these
limiting beliefs about what would people think if she's doing pop songs.
So I've learned to kind of let go of all of that and just be like, you know what, this
is giving me a lot of joy and I want to pursue this as well.
Yeah, coming against a lot of mindset things or just hang up, you get stuck on, you know.
But in the end, I'm learning to let go of all that.
I think inclusion in or in diversifying literature in piano has become big.
And as you mentioned, I interviewed a seat at the piano in the in the previous episodes
and then really diversifying the literature is so big and I really love that.
So I think it makes sense that now you can put you in classical music world, right?
Instead of just playing good old white male, you know, composers.
Dead white guys, yeah.
Yeah, definitely.
No, I loved that episode with the seat at the piano and I think the work is really important
to show what else is available.
I was at a piano festival in Portugal and there was I think a Chinese girl playing a
piece from China that I'd never heard that was just fabulous.
And then you're like, what is that?
Like I've never, nobody knows these things.
It's a great piece.
And I mean, this music deserves to be heard and it deserves a platform.
So it's great when we can bring in other other things.
And also it just feeds our creative soul to hear something outside the box.
As you're saying, if we're going to learn how to think like that, then we also need
to listen to as many different styles as we can.
You know, that's something my vocal coach really encourages me to do.
He'll make me listen to all sorts of stuff just to kind of fill your tank and to give
you new ideas and new sounds and new impressions.
So we're not always in the same vein.
And I think that will enrich our classical interpretations.
What do you offer as a performing artist?
Like do you just play solo piano pieces or do you also sometimes do your country singing
during the concert, especially in New York?
I'm very curious to know.
What I can really offer audiences is I really like to talk to the audience.
I like to be in connection with them.
I'm playing for Candlelight Concerts now and that's a space where I can take time between
the pieces and really share some thoughts or stories or about the music or something
funny that happened to me.
And just to kind of engage the audience that way and get them maybe to laugh or to listen
in a different way.
And then at the end, I'm finding a huge response of emotion that people come up to me and they'll
share stories with me about their families or people who have passed or difficult things
that they've gone through.
Or they'll tell me, you know, I came in here, I had a really rough few weeks and this has
really helped me.
I was very astounded at the level of intimacy that people share with me also in Instagram
messages afterwards.
But then I realized I think it's because I, from the piano, share something about me with
them.
So that kind of creates a space where they feel that there's an openness there.
And so Candlelight is much more in like kind of a pop style.
So there I have sang some of my own songs as an encore, for example, at the end.
But in my strictly classical concerts, I run a series over here, Chamber Music Series.
I'm learning how to kind of maybe approach the audience like that too, where I'm going
to be more personal with them.
But I still feel myself snap back into this very strict version of me where I'm like,
I walk on stage and I have to be serious.
I'm going to bow.
And like now I'm starting to open up a little bit more as I get more comfortable.
But again, you don't want to like, you know where the lines are and you don't want to
bend the lines too much because you want to be accepted by everyone in your genre and
your industry and you want to show that you belong.
And so it's again, coming against all of these things that we've learned to be true.
And then, yeah, it's an interesting journey, I think.
Yeah, it is.
And I think a lot of some artists that I've interviewed, they started doing that talk
and it tried to engage with audience with not just the music, but the way they present
the music.
So they would have a microphone on the stage and then talk to the audience, that sort of
thing.
But when you do, what do you share?
Do you talk about the piece you're about to play or is it more thematic or?
Yeah.
So it depends what program I'm playing.
So actually, for example, I just did a concert yesterday at Day of the Piano, it was called,
and I played a variety of Chopin, Ravel, Beethoven, and then Gabriel Dupont, a French composer,
and then some Hans Zimmer at the end.
So there I really went deep into the music and I explained, you know, there's a Hans
Zimmer piece where it starts with the marimba and then it comes in at the electric cello
and then the electric violin and then layer upon layer, he creates this soundscape and
then a choir comes in and then I say, you know, I'm happy to tell you all that the choir
part will be played by you today.
So everybody laughs, you know, just kind of relaxes.
They don't sing, but and then I play this piece for them.
So I've kind of explained to them, I think it's like teaching the audience how to actively
listen to what I would say.
So then with the Ravel, I played Pevelle, Paule, and Alphonse de Fent and I explained
the, you know, the layers of sound that he's using as well as the colors.
And I related that to an impressionist palette of color that you visually see.
Well, now you're about to listen to that.
So listen for how the sounds are different.
And then I talked about how my hand has to touch the keys in a different way to create
different sounds.
And I just kind of went more deep because it was supposed to be more of a detailed explanation
concert.
It was like an outreach event.
But if I'm playing like a candlelight show, you know, I do Coldplay for them a lot.
So then I just share about the lyrics or about the story behind the song or why fix you.
Chris Martin wrote that when Gwyneth Paltrow's dad died and that was his way to support her.
So I share that and then I read some of the lyrics and then the audience is like, oh,
we get why.
I think if you can tell the audience why about the music, they instantly have this deeper
connection to it.
And then, you know, the one story that I love to tell is when I play Ludovico and Audi program.
And I once had a man come up to me at the end and he said, there are two pieces in the
world that make me cry.
And one of them is this piece by an Audi.
Do you know it?
And I was like, yeah, I know it.
I can play it for you.
And I said, why does it make you cry?
And he said, well, I'm dreaming of the day that I will walk my daughter down the aisle
to this piece.
Oh, that's so beautiful.
Congratulations.
When's the big day?
He said, oh, she's 12.
I thought that was so funny.
And now I've told that story, I don't know, 50 times.
So I'm just thinking if this poor guy ever knew, like you have to be very careful what
you tell me now, because I might tell the stage.
So I don't know, just anything to make the audience kind of laugh.
And then that's what they remember.
They'll say, oh, I love that piece about the dad and the daughter.
And what was it again?
And I'm going to go home and listen to it.
And then you're just seeing how when we can connect on a human level, the music just makes
much more sense and they get it.
Music comes alive, right?
Yeah.
I know.
So you mentioned Coldplay.
Yeah.
Do you do piano arrangement of that?
Yeah.
So I have an entire program for Coldplay that we do.
I think they do them in the States as well, but in Candlelight.
So Candlelight is a concert series and they put thousands of candles surrounding you on
stage and they book these insanely beautiful venues.
And so I have eight different programs for them that I play and one of them is Coldplay.
Wow.
And that's your arrangement?
I found a bunch of the scores that were printed and then I just kind of go with my inspiration
as I'm killing, you know, so I'm like, I need more octaves here.
I need more bass.
So I just wait for you to figure it out.
So yeah.
Oh, wow.
That is cool.
I like to think about that kind of Japan's transcriptions too.
Yeah.
People can relate to you better that way.
Yeah.
Even my students are playing more pop songs, but in a nice arrangement, nice kind of transcriptions.
Yeah.
So I guess you could say it's like classically arranged Coldplay is what I'm playing for
these concerts and it just goes really well.
It's in a very aesthetic, atmospheric kind of emotional setting.
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Now let's continue with the show.
You released several solo on Spotify, I found them.
And then one was Empty Promises and another is Let Me Heal and I'm Here.
So can you talk about that a little bit?
What are those songs?
These are original songs, right?
Yeah, definitely.
So most of us went through a terrible time in 2020 and mine was especially difficult
personally.
So music was just, it was the only way that I was knowing how to kind of process what
I was going through and releasing all of the emotion and grief inside.
So I sat down at the piano and I just, my writing process is finding some chords and
maybe singing a melody over it.
The words usually come later.
And then I hit, you know, voice record on my phone and I'll get a little segment and
then I'll forget about it for like five months and then I'll get something else and I'll
piece it together.
And then I met a producer and I always knew that I wanted to kind of release songs, but
I was, you know, stuck in a lot of fear and perfectionism.
But I met my producer and he's like, show me your stuff.
Like, what do you have?
And so I gave him a few pieces and he's like, oh, this is great.
We can work with this.
And then he kind of just put his magic touch on things and then we worked together in the
studio.
And then I learned, you know, I have a great vocal coach.
I learned how to record and it was like a whole new world for me.
This other side, you know, it's like you're a musician your entire life and you actually
know nothing about what it takes to record and distribute a single.
So I had to learn that whole side, which is what we teach to like, you know, the pop students.
So now I'm trying to teach the class as well in case they ever want to like release their
own music.
And I've released four songs.
I have one coming out this Friday.
It's the last single.
And then I'm going to be recording a few piano pieces to add to kind of make my first album
a compilation of my two genres.
Like here's the classical and pop version of me.
And I don't have to choose because we're outside of the box artists.
We're not, we're not stuck anymore.
But tell me about the song that the newest one that's coming up this Friday.
Yeah, I'm so excited about this one.
It's called In the In-Between.
And it's that season of your life where you've made it out of the valley and the worst is
over, but you still don't know where you're going and you don't have any answers yet,
but you're okay.
And you have a lot of trust, but you just really wish that you could know for sure.
But it's just kind of about accepting that it's not there yet.
I think there's like, you know, maybe it's the American culture of like, everything's
great.
Put a smile on.
You're going to be fine.
You know, you fall over and it's like, are you okay?
And I heard, you know, the Russian equivalent of when you fall over, somebody says, are
you hurt?
Right.
And we're all just like, you're fine.
You're fine.
You're not bleeding.
You're fine.
And so I had people telling me that, you know, you're fine.
Don't worry about it.
You're going to get through this.
And it's like, no, I'm not fine.
And I need someone to like, I need to be okay and saying, this is where I am.
And I'm going to be really honest.
And I'm not going to pretend that I'm not bleeding.
And so then in between is just saying like, I don't have the answers.
And I, people will say, what are you going to do?
Where are you going to move?
Where are you going to go?
What's happening?
I'm like, I don't know.
I don't know.
I'm doing my best.
That's what I can tell you.
And I'm doing my best to steward everything that I've been given and to take good opportunities
and to manage myself well.
But I know that I have faults and I know I have weaknesses.
And I'm just going to accept myself in this weakness and process and who I am today.
So I think the song has a lot of self-acceptance themes in it as well as, and letting go of
this, I have to keep this perfect image up all the time.
It's like, no, I don't.
I can't.
It would break me.
Thank you for really being so open about it because nobody wants to talk about that.
People think that that's a negative thing to say.
They say that I should be more open.
So when I started speaking about the reality or something that I went through and I overcome
and then people really reject it because it's a connotation of negativity, but it's not.
I overcome.
So here we go.
It's positive.
But people are uncomfortable with vulnerability, I think, because everybody likes to have a
mask and just pretend.
Everything's great.
How are you?
I'm great.
And I'm not saying you need to tell a stranger on the street your deepest trauma, but I am
saying that sometimes to ourselves, we can lie and pretend like you're fine.
And then there's a disconnect inside.
And as I've learned to grow as an artist and learn to treat my inner artists with respect
and kindness, which is part of overcoming perfectionism, you have to learn how to let
go of that inner critic that we hear constantly.
And okay, if I'm going to learn to love myself and to speak with gentleness and self-compassion
and kindness and all of that stuff, then I guess I better get to know who that person
is and why have I been so mean and what's actually going on inside.
It's like, oh, she's really hurt and she needs to express herself.
So that's what I did and then we recorded it and now it's out in the world.
And the first four songs, I mean, it was very vulnerable to release them.
You just kind of like, you do this, you're pushing it out in the world and you're just
like, don't look.
I don't want to hear it.
Don't tell me what you think.
I don't want to know.
So that's a little bit how I felt, especially with Let Me Heal.
That one's a very intense personal song.
But people have been great.
There's been a great encouragement coming back to me.
And the streams are not huge numbers, but I don't need them to be huge numbers.
I just needed to release what was inside of me.
And who knows?
I'm sure it'll keep going because I have more things to write.
Wow.
But it's so wonderful that you can actually use music to express yourself because as a
classically trained musician, that's not easy to do.
But I think your upbringing and love for country music and these things, I don't know, really.
And maybe you had some training of writing songs too?
Yeah, I actually did a songwriting course during COVID and it was in the States.
So I was at 1 a.m.
I was on Zoom trying to learn how to write a chorus.
But that was another really fun adventure.
And that's what we were talking about with helping artists discover their full potential.
It's like, well, look at your other interests and learn and educate yourself on that because
you're right.
Your classical training was probably very limiting in the fact that you don't even know
how to improvise.
Right.
We don't even want to sit down and play if we don't have the score.
And you've practiced four to six hours a day for how many years and you won't play unless
you have it memorized?
Like, I'm sorry.
Something is very wrong in how we've taught people to approach the instrument.
And there should be way more freedom in it.
Absolutely.
So I interviewed these people, experts in that too.
So oh, great.
Yeah, I will listen to that episode happily.
Yes.
It's a theory called music learning theory.
And then they're really changing the way we teach students, not just notes on the score,
but to think of it like a learning language.
You don't start out by learning letters, right?
As a toddler, they yeah, they started speaking first.
Right.
So the same thing.
Same goes with music.
It should be taught that way.
So I completely agree.
That sounds wonderful.
So speaking of music education, so you are an educator.
So I want to ask a few questions about that.
So how has the music education evolved over the past decade?
And what are the most significant change you've observed?
I saw that question in your preparation and I thought how it's changed would be a shift
towards embracing entrepreneurship.
I think the fact that there's even courses being starting to be offered is a huge shift.
And I would say that is in the last decade because when I was in school, I don't remember
hearing anything about it.
In Europe, I had a girl from Spain yesterday.
She said, we have nothing like this in Spain.
So I don't think it's everywhere.
But you know, I think it's varying for institution.
And as it's becoming more talked about, also our work at the Fearless Artist is about getting
visible and just sharing the message.
People are like, oh yeah, we do need to talk about this.
And why did I not learn anything about this in school?
So I think that's a great shift.
Embracing you know, people like motivational speakers have helped me so much with the entrepreneurial
mindset following people like Gary Vee, who talks about how to create opportunities, how
to create income, looking, all of that stuff relates to us as creatives and other creative
influencers.
There's an artist that I follow.
I think her name is Josie Lewis, art, art, and she shows how she's creating and also
selling and then I don't, it's just like a really beautiful, clear way of this is how
I earn a living doing what I love.
And when somebody breaks it down for you and gives you an example of what it could look
like, it gives you a lot of ideas and it brings clarity and vision.
And I think that's how I've really inspired myself is by looking at other people who are
achieving a level of success and saying, okay, like they're doing it.
There's a way to do it.
Like let's find the way.
How relevant is classical training in today's diverse musical landscape?
I think our classical education is the foundation.
I think it's so crucial to have our harmonic understanding, our technical understanding.
I mean, we have a facility, we have an ability, we have so much about my training.
I did not recognize how good it was until I got older and I saw people who hadn't had,
you know, I did the Royal Conservatory of Music in Canada and I know your guest from
a seat at the piano also mentioned RCM and you know, I had like ear training exams and
I had sight reading exams and sight reading is one of my biggest assets now.
So I think it's due to RCM and because I had this kind of rigorous upbringing now I can
play anything.
You put anything in front of me, I can play it.
Like I've played for churches, I've played for like pop concerts, I've played background
music.
Like I can, you know, I can do it and there's a lot of pianists who maybe didn't have that
training who then don't have that skill.
And so I think, yeah, the more and more I've valued that upbringing and then you can translate
to any genre, right?
Because like I just saw an ad this morning for this guy, you know, those stupid ads we
get on YouTube about simply piano or whatever.
He's like, if you have one hour this week, you can learn a hundred songs because you
only need four chords.
And I'm like, you know what?
He's right.
You can learn a hundred songs.
But like, okay, fine, you know?
So I'm much happier that I started classical and then I can like have more added to my
play than if I started limited with four chords and then now I'm trying to learn scales or
something.
Yeah, absolutely.
Yes.
Thank you.
That's exactly what I wanted to hear.
So how can educators prepare students for this rapidly changing musical world?
The musical world changes, you know, very quickly.
Yeah, I think the first thing is staying relevant and staying informed, talking to other people.
How are you teaching this concept?
What's your tech setup?
What's going on with this new platform software app?
I mean, tech is changing so fast.
And especially with COVID, like we all kind of learned way more about video and audio
editing.
I mean, I had very, very little skills.
I still don't have very many, but I have more than I used to.
The fact that we all started recording and posting or playing online or doing a live
stream concert, which I did from my living room, that was a Vancouver series.
That was a cool day.
An educator needs to have a flexible mindset and open mindset, willing to continue learning
the latest editions of the books that are coming out, willing to keep up with the rapid
change in technology.
And TikTok is a huge deal for a lot of independent artists.
They are able to get visibility and break through the market.
They don't need a label.
And so many people are like, TikTok, I would never download that app.
It's like, okay, but like, there's so much opportunity here that you just dismiss because
maybe a lack of understanding or, I don't know.
So I think it's important that we just try and stay aware of what's going on out there
and staying in no.
Now we have to go into a little bit more deep conversation.
So I want to ask more philosophical questions.
So it's the vision of the classical music industry.
So let's start with this.
So we touched a little bit of pandemic impact.
So what did the pandemic teach us, us as in classical musicians?
Do you think it was there any big shift in our industry?
Was it a long-term change?
And is it about the way we reach out to the audience?
Or maybe is it about classical musicians' perspectives on our career?
I mean, we had nearly three years to think about, meditate on these thoughts, right?
And then, or are there, is there any new emerging genres mixed with classical music due to those
times or any, or maybe our mindset toward this traditional image or perception of being
a classical music has changed.
But what would be the biggest change that you feel?
I think one of the positive things of COVID was bringing people together in an online
sense and the tech that changed so rapidly.
I mean, that people were now being able to give online lessons, for example.
So Zoom sound is obviously not great, but there were a lot of new platforms that emerged,
external microphones being used, or new ways to reach teacher-student.
And many university professors were teaching now exclusively.
So I don't know, in that sense, it kind of provides more possibilities, you know, less
travel time, less commute time wasted.
My entrepreneurship class was taught exclusively online for an entire year.
And that just meant that once the pandemic was over, I could be traveling and still teach
my class.
So in a sense, there was a lot of possibilities there.
I also had something where I started doing online concerts, which I had never done before.
And only after the pandemic did I realize I could be playing for a lot of people in
Canada online who want to hear me.
And I could have done that way before lockdown, but I never thought to put an offer together
like that because I didn't have this closed door of you can't leave your house.
So I like to share with my grandma, she was in a care home and I felt very far from her,
obviously.
And then as soon as lockdown happened, I realized we can FaceTime and I can play for her over
FaceTime.
Well, why was I not doing that the entire time that I've been living in Holland and
she's been in the care home?
But that just like wasn't even a thought because we didn't, limitation brings direction.
When doors close, you are forced to say what is now possible.
And I found that there were kind of two mindsets among people, classical musicians that I was
talking to.
One is like everyone's panicking, like the sky is falling, it's going to be over.
We're never going to have concerts again.
Like I did hear people say this, will we ever return to the concert hall?
You know, I mean, I thought that was a pretty bold statement, but I also didn't have any
certainty over what was happening.
So who knows, right?
And then things are being dealt with very differently in the Netherlands compared to
France.
And so there was so much uncertainty about how things are being dealt with.
Then we went into lockdown for, you know, we'd go in for three weeks, then we'd come
out, I could play a concert for 30 people.
We had to be sitting one seat in between every single person.
So we'd have like a full theater with 30 people in it.
Then we'd go into lockdown again, everything canceled.
It was just like this bag of more than, so I think a flexible mindset, being open to
change, being willing to adapt are all like really things that helped people get through
that.
And then with the one side was saying everything's over and then the other side was saying, okay,
what's possible now?
And so for us, we were focusing on the fearless artists.
I started doing online concerts.
I think I did 40 of them.
I made like a couple of Instagram posts.
I called it for your ears only you and the loved one will get to choose from a menu of
like easy listening pieces, Chopin, Beethoven, Ravel, insert list, keys, whatever here.
And then I just had wonderful connections with people, conversations like this, you
know, about the music in online from my living room.
And I put my concert dress on and I took it like a serious concert.
And I don't know that brought a lot of joy.
And I thought, this is interesting.
This is something I never would have done if I hadn't been forced to think about it.
So yeah, I don't know.
It was thought provoking that season.
Yeah, but I love the way you shift your mind toward that.
Like when we are going through adversities, you don't go, oh, this is impossible.
I'm done.
I'm I'm my life is over.
My career is over.
You think, oh, what's the possibility here?
What can I do?
Well, what's missing?
And then, oh, I can learn this.
I can learn that.
I love that sort of mindset.
And having Diana to help me with that, of course, like I think on my own, it's easy
to not have that trippy wake up in the morning and look for the possibility.
But when you're able to talk to people who are close to you and share verbally and then
say, okay, now what?
Like, yes, we can complain and we're scared and we don't know what's happening.
And like lockdown, she wasn't you know, Diana couldn't leave her Paris apartment for more
than one hour, once a day, one kilometer radius.
I mean, it was just it was insane.
But then it's like, OK, well, let's work on our workshops and facilitating and finding
new clients and posting on our Instagram and let's see what happens.
What's your thought on keeping classical music relevant?
And you already mentioned, but you know, this industry thriving in this fast paced society.
You know, I struggled as a piano teacher living in New York City and teaching young children
to start with back in 2006 or seven.
And I was in I was quite shocked of, you know, their especially parents, their knowledge
of music, what it takes to learn music.
So I want to know.
I mean, limited knowledge, right?
Just to clarify.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
So they treat it like a hobby and it's like a once a week thing and they don't practice
in between.
Right.
And to many, many, so many things.
I mean, I can talk about this forever, but I feel like as a job, as a piano teacher was
more than just teaching music, I think of educating so much more and educating the parents
to many things.
So what do you think keeping classical music or music education relevant in this industry
thriving?
I have been thinking recently about adapting to audience needs and making I think part
of our job is performing artists, which we also maybe aren't taught about in school,
just to become educators of the music.
If you want to have new audiences who have, let's say, zero classical music training,
you cannot expect them to come sit through a symphony, which is one hour long, quietly,
not move, not cough, not rattle their rappers and then come out and have like this profound
experience like they have no idea what they just listened to.
They don't know what to listen to.
They don't understand where it came from.
They don't understand anything about the composer.
Like, OK, they can read the program notes, but that still takes like a highly, you know,
there's like a certain level of intelligence or trained person who's going to sit there
and have the patience and, you know, with social media ruining our attention spans,
I think that we have to kind of learn to bring the music to the people.
And I love this concept of sitting at the piano with a microphone and talking the audience
through what you're about to hear and sharing the story or connecting with them.
And then, and then they are, as we already said, they're much more willing to listen,
but they also know what they're listening to.
And the example I like to use is when I go to a museum, I look at these paintings.
I am overwhelmed.
They're beautiful.
I'm highly impressed.
I still don't know what I'm looking at.
I don't have so much art history education, so I don't know what the symbolism of this
color means or what this, you know, this vase that they're using represented.
So I get the audio tour and I pay the five bucks and I walk around with the little receiver
in my hand and it explains the painting to me.
And then I'm like, wow, this is amazing.
So like, I think that for our audiences, it is our job to say, this is what you're about
to hear and to help them because it's on us to teach them, it's on them.
And to also present concerts in maybe a more relaxed setting, you know, and so candidly,
just coming back to that, that's why I just really love this concept because I think that
they are a bridge from another genre concert where people, by the way, if you go to a festival,
they're drunk and they're yelling and they're talking and they're listening to the music,
but are they really, I mean, you know, to the other extreme of everyone is dead silent
like a mouse.
So then candidly comes in and they're like, we're going to give you the wow factor.
You're going to have thousands of candles.
It's in this gorgeous cathedral and you're going to listen to an hour of easy listening
music that you already know because you already know the band or you know the composer or
whatever.
So then people are like, oh, I've had so many people come up to me and say, that was my
first piano concert.
Thank you so much.
I loved it.
I'm like, how much more likely are these people now going to go to the symphony or to the
concerto performance because they have some understanding of what it's going to be like
and they're not freaked out by the elitism, you know, of the fancy gowns.
And I just had one of my friends go to a concert in Norway to the symphony and she got side
eyed by an older lady because she was in casual clothing.
And so there's still this idea of like, you go to symphony, you need to dress up and like,
okay, let's just let people be people.
If it's about the music and let's bring them to accept people how they are and introduce
them to what we do.
And then many of them would like it and they would stick around, you know, and then it
helps dismantle this classical music is dying.
It's like, well, maybe you should just change the packaging of your messaging.
Yeah.
The whole entire branding needs to be really updated, upgraded.
I think we're working on it, but yeah.
Yeah, there's new concepts that are coming through that are exciting or like, you know,
some friends in Montreal had this concert series in a restaurant cafe for a while and
people would get up and they would play a piece or two and then, you know, it's much
more casual setting, but we're still enjoying this great music and it doesn't diminish or
dumb down the music to do it like that.
Yes.
I think that's some of the fear behind like, oh, we have to be very serious because what
we do is very serious.
It's like, yes, but like you can say that our work is excellent and still be more friendly
or kind or casual or just like, like relax a little bit.
You could still play to a very high level and be chill.
So I don't know.
Come into that because dumbing down never works because, you know, the audiences are
not dumb, right?
And they want high quality.
And we don't want to diminish the art either because like we're trying to aspire to something
greater than ourselves.
So we don't want to bring it down to our level, but I think that there is a way to make it
maybe more palatable for people who have no introduction to it.
Then what is your thought on our duty or gift as classical musicians to society at large?
I say a lot to people, you have a gift that needs to be seen.
So you know, a city, a light on a hill cannot be under a lamp, right?
Under a, it cannot be hidden.
I think is the saying.
So if you have a light and you have a gift, you may also have a duty to put it out there.
And whether that's through letting people in through your process on social media or
starting a mailing list or a blog or finding ways to reach people, you know, people always
argue, well, word of mouth, like, okay, fine.
You can build your career in a local word of mouth sense.
Like word of mouth, of course, is extremely powerful, but I think it's only amplified
with our online presence.
I mean, you and I would not be talking right now if it was word of mouth that I relied
on to build my career, right?
So like, I mean, it just gives you so many opportunities if you could share with people,
hey, this is what I think and this is what I do.
And maybe it's interesting to you too.
And we could connect about it.
And so I think that we have a duty to share what we're doing and to find the audiences
who need what we have to say.
Well, Michelle, we can talk about this forever.
I'm really thoroughly enjoying our conversation, but we're coming to an end of our conversation.
So I have a few more questions if that's okay.
So definitely.
What's the next phase, next goal for you and for your business, the Fearless Artist Mastermind?
The Fearless Artist Mastermind, we are currently growing our membership community.
I would love to see that where we have multiple pods for different time zones so the North
Americans can join something that's maybe in an evening because right now we can't have
any evenings because I'm over here in Europe.
So I think expanding that, we've brought in a number of great guest workshop speakers,
the Bulletproof musician, Noah Kiyama came in and did a workshop for us.
My great colleague in Rotterdam came in and did a branding workshop for us.
So I would just love to get outside influences coming to speak to our community.
Personally, I'm releasing this fifth song and going to be recording the rest of the
album to release and learning the marketing side and overcoming any limiting beliefs about
constantly having to put yourself out there on socials and building a fan base.
I think just continuing to pursue excellence in performing and scaling that.
Just a quick shout out to our audience about your coaching program and also your release
on Friday, that song.
Yeah, the fearless artist mastermind.com and you can also find us on Instagram and everything
is there for how to join one of our programs.
Great.
And then your personal website is the michellelinnpianist.com, right?
Yes.
And on Instagram, I am this is Michelle Lin.
Great.
Thank you.
So before we, I will let you go.
We have one more thing to do is it's called the piano pods rapid fire questions where
this part of the show where I get to ask fun questions to each guest.
And here's a little twist as silly as these questions may sound, your answers may reveal
who you truly are.
So ready or not.
Yes.
Okay.
Please answer them with the shortest responses as possible.
No explanation is necessary.
Level one.
What is your comfort food?
Spaghetti.
How do you like your coffee?
Black.
Oh, cat or dog?
Dog.
Oh, you have a dog?
He's on the couch right now.
She is.
Oh my goodness.
So sweet.
So cute.
I love her so much.
She's my best friend.
What is her name?
What's her name?
Her name is Hannah and she's a rescue from Cyprus.
Oh wow.
Really Hannah.
Oh, how sweet.
Okay.
So next one, sunrise or sunset?
Sunrise.
Summer or winter?
Summer.
Okay.
Paper book or ebook?
Paper book.
Hmm.
Interesting.
Now level two.
Level two.
What skill have you always wanted to learn but haven't had a chance to?
Dancing.
Hmm.
Oh wow.
What kind of dancing?
I don't know.
I want to be more flexible and like coordinated in general.
Okay.
Sounds good.
What is your word or words to live by?
Laughter is the best medicine.
Ah, that's great.
What is the most important quality you look for in other people?
Compassion.
Hmm.
Name three people who inspire you, living or dead.
Mel Robbins.
I was talking about her this morning.
Brene Brown and Obama.
George Obama.
Barack or Michelle?
Yeah, Barack.
Barack.
Okay.
I mean both of them obviously but.
Yeah, yeah.
Great.
Now if you could meet your future self, what question would you ask?
Did you make it?
Laughter.
Yes.
Good.
All right.
Name one piece in your current playlist.
Oh, Mumford and Sons, Little Lion Man.
All right.
Next level, which is the top tier, level three, what do you believe is the key to a fulfilling
life?
Did you serve the people that you were supposed to serve?
Oh, wow.
That's beautiful.
Now last question.
Fill in the blank.
Music is blank.
Healing.
Hmm.
Wow.
I think that's like the first time I ever heard somebody says healing.
Oh, yeah.
Out of all the episodes I had.
Great.
So.
That concludes the episode of the Piano Pod.
Thank you, Michelle.
That was beautifully done and thank you for joining my show today and sharing your stories
and insights and expertise.
You can learn more about Michelle and her amazing work through her website at michellylimpianist.com
and her cool running business at the FearlessArtistMastermind.com and all the links are listed in the show notes
and thank you to my wonderful audience and fans for tuning in.
If you enjoyed today's episode, please rate and review it on your favorite podcast platform.
Remember to hit the thumbs up button and subscribe to my channel if you are watching this episode
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I will see you for the next episode of the Piano Pod.
Thank you, Michelle.
Bye, everyone.
Bye.