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Welcome back to another episode of the PianoPod, here, tradition meets innovation.

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We bridge the timeless beauty of the piano with the dynamic pulse of today's world.

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I am your host, Yukimi Song.

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So during the summer, I was searching for some incredible talent in our industry for

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the new season.

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And after posting about it on social media to help us find guests to interview, I was

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able to create quite an incredible guest lineup for the season.

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Thanks to our faithful listeners like you, who took the time to fill out the nomination

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form.

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Well, one of my dear colleagues and good friends, a classical pianist and educator and a web

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designer for fellow musicians, Poki Huang, also took his time to fill out the guest nomination

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form for the show.

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And today's guest was nominated by him.

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A huge shout out to Poki.

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Thank you.

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Hope you are listening.

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By the way, the guest nomination form is still up on our website.

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I will list a link in the description as well.

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But I would love to invite exceptionally talented artists and educators and entrepreneurs who

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are pioneers in our industry for captivating interviews.

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Whether you are recommending someone or it's a self-nomination, we sincerely welcome insights

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into why they or you would be an ideal fit for the show.

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No story is too small and every individual's voice is valuable.

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So get in touch with us by filling out the form.

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Look for the link in the show notes.

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Let me finally introduce today's guest.

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She is here to dive deep into a super timely topic, classical musicians and entrepreneurship.

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We will also be exploring her program, the Fearless Artist Mastermind.

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Michelle Lin is an artist who enjoys a wide and varied career, whether on stage performing,

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delighting audiences across Europe, speaking at events or giving lectures on entrepreneurship.

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Michelle is a Canadian pianist and singer entrepreneur and a lecturer of entrepreneurship.

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She co-founded the Fearless Artist Mastermind, a professional development program that guides

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clients to cultivate their careers and achieve financial stability.

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Her zone of genius is getting to the root of the real problems and asking hard questions

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in a kind way.

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Michelle is full of enthusiasm and optimism and believes that artists deserve to earn

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a good income and should never be their own ceilings.

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She holds positions as lecturer for music entrepreneurship at Conservatorium Maastricht

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and Cold Arts University for the Arts in Rotterdam.

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She graduated from University of Montreal with a master's and artist diploma in piano

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performance.

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Before starting this episode with Michelle Lin, I want to welcome all our first timers

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to the piano pot.

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I'm a classical pianist and educator from New York City.

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Whether you're diving deep into a piano career working professionally in the classical

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music scene or simply have a passion for piano tunes, this podcast is your backstage pass

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to the fascinating piano world.

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I also want to welcome back and thank you for amazing TPP fans and faithful listeners

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for tuning in today.

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Please rate and review the show on your favorite podcasting platform because every rating review

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will help people find my show.

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So dear TPP fans and listeners, I can't wait to interview Michelle to discuss practical

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topics like how we make a decent living as musicians and learn what the fearless artist

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mastermind is all about.

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Stick with me till the end of our conversation as it will lead to a more reflective discussion

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on how we train classical musicians should keep our industry relevant and thriving in

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today's rapidly changing world.

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So here we go, dear friends.

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Please enjoy the show.

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You are listening to the piano pod where we talk to the brightest minds in the industry

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about how they are bringing the piano into the 21st century.

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Welcome Michelle to the piano pod.

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I know you're yeah.

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Thank you for being here.

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I know you're originally from Canada, but you're currently you live in in the Netherlands,

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right?

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That's correct.

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Yeah.

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What's like living in Europe?

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I'm sure it's nice to be able to travel around, you know, to different countries on the on

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the same continent by train.

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Yeah.

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Living in Europe is a blast.

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I always say that when I grew up in Grand Prairie, Alberta, I had drive five hours to

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get to the next city.

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And here if I go anywhere within five hours, I'm either in Amsterdam or Paris or Brussels

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or Cologne or Italy or it's it's wild and I really love it.

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Oh my gosh.

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It's a dream come true as an artist.

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So I checked out your Instagram account, first of all, and came across this post.

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Being a musician is not only about being good at your instrument.

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It comes with a whole set of complicated situations that can arise and that may be the people

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around you won't understand, which can make you feel alone and isolated.

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So there's a lot to unpack here, right?

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What is your thought on our unique situations and challenges that regular people, as in

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people outside of our industry who can't really relate to?

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What do you think?

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As creatives, we are a special breed of person.

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And a lot of people who do the nine to fives, as you're saying, just maybe won't understand

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our lifestyle that, you know, if we have performances, it requires an enormous amount of unpaid preparation.

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We do this because we are passionate, we do it because we love it.

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There also is a lot of fear that may come in that we're dealing with on a daily basis

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that people don't know about.

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And so when they ask uncomfortable questions, sometimes out of curiosity, oh, what do you

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do all day?

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Well, that can be a very triggering question for someone who's trying to figure out what

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to do all day in order to build a career or, you know, if people say, oh, how do you pay

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your bills?

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And maybe you had a lower income month because you're freelancing.

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And so people who maybe have a perfectly healthy intention of just getting to know you can

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unintentionally push all your buttons.

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And I think that's what I found early on when I was starting out trying to build my career,

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trying to figure out what life could look like.

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If I had made the right decision, not pursuing a doctorate in the University of Montreal

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where I did my master's degree, I chose to come to Europe instead.

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And then it just comes with a lot of questions.

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I mean, we're doing our best to figure it out as we go.

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And that's why I really believe in the importance of community and finding other creatives to

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surround yourself with because they understand what we're dealing with.

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They're not going to ask you, do you really sit at the piano all day or how are you going

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to make a living?

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Or, you know, and then you can actually talk about obstacles that you're facing and find

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solutions together.

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Yeah.

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And I also checked out your website for the Fearless Artist Mastermind, which you co-founded

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with your colleague.

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And it says, we help ambitious musicians earn more money and build a career they love.

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I love it.

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So straightforward.

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Earn more money.

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E-M-M. I wanted to scream because it's like really such a simple thing, but necessary

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for many musicians.

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And then as you said, you know, our lifestyle, like prepping time is not being paid.

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I feel like sometimes just by sitting in front of the piano or computer to create something,

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not getting paid, I feel like although I'm working hard, I feel so lazy because I am

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not earning money.

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Interesting.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So debunking the stereotype of musician, you know, musician being poor or musician's life

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is so important.

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And also not just debunking the stereotype, but I think our mindset, I think that's

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more important toward our lifestyle, but also toward money.

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So.

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Yeah.

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I love that you're saying this.

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I teach entrepreneurship at the university here and I tell them almost every class, we

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are not starving artists.

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We are thriving artists and you're going to learn to look for opportunities.

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You're going to be fearless.

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That's our, you know, our brand name, of course, but it means you put yourself out there without

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worrying about what people might think or how they're going to judge you.

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And you look for the opportunities and you pursue them and you pick up the phone.

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You don't wait for the phone to ring.

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And by doing that, by default, you will earn more money.

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So when we say we're going to help you earn more money, what we're really saying is we're

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going to help unlock the fear that you have and how you have been your own ceiling and

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how you have told yourself you're not good enough and how you haven't tried to even reach

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out to that person because you're scared that they're going to reject you.

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And we're going to coach you through that mindset, as you just said.

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And then once you get there and you start to believe that what you have is so valuable,

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you need to go out into the world and share it.

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Then you are the one seeking out people that you can work with.

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And of course, when you have a good fee and you set your prices, then money comes, right?

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It's not necessarily about the money, but we want to create a sustainable way for artists

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to live because without the money, you can't pay your rent.

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So it's not that it's about the money thing, but it's just that we want to be able to continue

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to make good music and good art.

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Yeah.

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But why not money, right?

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Why can we talk about money?

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Because it's very important to, we're not asking for billions of dollars.

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We're asking for decent income that can sustain a decent lifestyle.

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I've learned to kind of temper my response because I know people get offended so easily

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about this thing.

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So I'm like, well, you know, we're not saying you have to see it as a business.

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It's not for profit, you know, but it is.

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Of course, yes, we deserve to earn as much as any other working professional does.

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Yeah, sure.

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Right.

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So I would love to know your program, the business.

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So they're Fearless Artist Mastermind.

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I love the name and it's very straightforward.

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So what is it?

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And then when did you start?

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Yes.

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The Fearless Artist began in 2020, one month before lockdown.

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We had no idea what was coming and ended up launching this online virtual, essentially

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professional development for classical musicians.

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So we work with our clients in a variety of ways, either through our membership, which

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is group calls, group coaching, and a community.

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We also do shorter programs, a six week program called Six Week Sprint.

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And that's when you have something that you want to do, need to do, but even putting it

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off because you're overwhelmed and busy with everything else.

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So it's like, I need to write this press release or this grant or release this album or prepare

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this recording.

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And it's just not happening because I'm too busy.

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A lot of our clients have ended up building their website, for example, in those six weeks.

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And then we do a longer version of that called the Mastermind, which is four months of just

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giving people structure.

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I think a lot of freelancers lack structure and having that accountability and checking

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in with people and saying, this is where I'm at and this is where I'm going.

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And it just really provides a framework for creatives.

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So through that, we've worked with hundreds of clients all over the world in the last

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three years and just continue to develop these online sessions, which have, I think, been

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a wealth of encouragement, support, learning, and just like a very healthy community, I

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would say.

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So what exactly is the mission?

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Maybe I'm repeating the question, but I want to know.

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And what was missing from the industry that made you start the business?

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Yeah, that's a great question.

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For me, when I finished my studies, I had learned how to play the piano really well,

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and I had learned history and harmony and how to write counterpoint.

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No one ever said, here's how to find students and here's how to pitch for a concert and

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here's how to create an online digital space where people could find you and be interested.

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And I knew I had to have a headshot in bio, but it was always a little bit like, that

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ick feeling of like, oh, I don't want people to judge me and I don't want to be seen and

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I don't want to be so vulnerable and why do we have to be in the spotlight?

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And I'd rather just do my thing and quickly learn that if you want to build a career,

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that's just not going to work.

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So Deanna is my co-founder, as you mentioned, she studied at Juilliard and was living in

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Paris for 10 years.

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And we just realized there's so much out there that musicians don't know how to do.

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We were not taught this in school.

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We're sitting around waiting for the phone to ring.

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So we were like, we need something to help teach people how to take initiative.

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And through that, we had done a mastermind with some of our Juilliard colleagues, loved

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the concept and I had had some experience facilitating already.

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So we just thought, let's see what happens.

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We'll put out an offer.

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And I made one Instagram post and we had 10 signups right away.

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People were just like, there was a need for this.

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They were like, yes, get me into a community where I can just be accountable to someone

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and talk through what I'm going through.

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Because again, as we started this call, most people don't understand us.

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You need people who understand you.

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So from there is really just built and developed.

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Yeah.

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And then also interesting because you're not from Europe, but you live in Europe.

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And then also your partner, Diane or Diana?

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Diana, yes.

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Diana, I'm sorry.

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Diana is also from the United States.

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Yes.

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She's now relocated to Minnesota where she's from, but she was over here for 10 years.

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Oh, so your partner is not in Europe.

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She just moved three months ago.

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So we're still adjusting to time zone differences and all that great stuff.

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But yeah, she's just moved back.

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Wow.

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But the starting point was you both are foreigners in Europe.

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And so probably that perspective contributed to the business or the reason of starting

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the business, you think?

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Yeah.

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We definitely connected because of our shared expat common.

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We met because I'd went to Paris to audition to play in her quartet.

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And from there, we just really connected.

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And I think as an expat, when you find another expat over in Europe, definitely you're more

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likely to become friends.

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And just because we understand each other culturally, we just instantly had a lot in

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common.

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So I think that definitely contributed.

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A lot of our client base is in US, Canada.

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But additionally, many have come from Europe as well because this entrepreneurial mindset

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is growing and developing, I think, rapidly over in Europe now too, especially in the

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Netherlands.

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I'm teaching this course now at two different institutions.

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And I think that that's a really great sign that it's starting.

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The tide is turning and good things are coming.

261
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Wow.

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I just didn't realize.

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I picture myself being Europe because I studied there for once, two summers in actually Austria.

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And it feels like being a classical musician, musicians being very respected in the community,

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in the country.

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And then I don't know about Canada, but in the United States, there's the issue with

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the health care.

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I mean, every single thing you do, you have to earn.

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The government isn't, oh, there's grants and everything, but it's very difficult to get.

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But in my imagination, in my impression was that in Europe, it's so much easier to live

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as a classical musician or freelance musicians.

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Depending on where you live, I know in France, they have a program for artists where as long

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as you show that you have a certain amount of, they call them cashes, so gigs per year,

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you apply for this program and you show that you have work, then they will subsidize days

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that you don't have any work so that you have consistent income coming in.

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And some of my friends applied for that.

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It takes a time to build up your portfolio just to demonstrate that you're at that certain

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level, but it is there.

279
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And then in the Netherlands, there's definitely subsidies for low income and housing subsidies

280
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and healthcare subsidies because we pay for healthcare here.

281
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It's quite expensive.

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And then I think that really helped me in the beginning to be able to establish myself

283
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and start to figure out how to do it while building my teaching studio.

284
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I taught piano for seven or eight years full time for income stability while pursuing other

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projects so that I knew that I could pay my bills because you need to be able to figure

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out the baseline.

287
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Right, right, right.

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So that's why I was surprised because with all these support that you are able to receive

289
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from the government, but still then people are now more asking for the lifestyle of entrepreneurship,

290
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like they want to learn in Europe too.

291
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Yeah, I mean, I think it's about creating opportunities that fulfill you, intrinsic

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satisfaction, right?

293
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So, I mean, a lot of people are looking for that fulfilling career.

294
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And I think that's why we chose art in the first place, because you have a passion and

295
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you want to connect to something deeper.

296
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So yeah, I can't speak for every country because I only have experience with the Netherlands

297
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and France, but I think definitely it would be more doable here than maybe the States,

298
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how your situation is there.

299
00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:12,140
Let's talk about your business itself.

300
00:18:12,140 --> 00:18:17,760
You told me about the six weeks and also other group sessions as well.

301
00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:21,120
So can you tell us walk us through in details?

302
00:18:21,120 --> 00:18:23,840
So do you also have solo coaching as well?

303
00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:26,520
Yes, we do have one-on-one coaching.

304
00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:31,360
I have a few clients on one-on-one and I really love that because then we can go really deep

305
00:18:31,360 --> 00:18:33,960
and say, what is it that you're going after?

306
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Really get clear on goals, look at any possible opportunities that you have and how to...

307
00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:43,040
I think time management is one thing, but energy management is a whole other ball game

308
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when you're at a certain level of success, because then the opportunities are coming

309
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in and you have to start to make decisions.

310
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Am I going to say yes to everything because I'm used to saying yes to everything because

311
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I really needed the money or am I going to start to say no to things that don't interest

312
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me as much in order to make space that I can say yes?

313
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And then there's a certain level of risk involved in that.

314
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So I think that's where coaching can be really helpful because you have someone on the outside

315
00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:10,120
giving you perspective and also just helping you clarify what you're actually going after.

316
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And then we have our membership, as I mentioned, I think we have 15 members right now currently

317
00:19:14,120 --> 00:19:18,200
and we meet twice a month on a group call and discuss different issues.

318
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We usually have a coaching exercise that we walk people through, whether it's setting

319
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your next two weeks to look like your ideal two weeks or what are you struggling with,

320
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any discussion that might arise.

321
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And then people have individual hot seat where they can bring a very specific problem or

322
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obstacle and share that.

323
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So all sorts of things come up, relational difficulties in an organization or how to

324
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set your fees or finding more students or getting stuck in a certain tech area, not

325
00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:47,040
knowing how to start a podcast.

326
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Anything that can come up and then the group kind of jumps in and helps steer that person.

327
00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:55,040
Also a lot of emotional stuff will come up too, you know, dealing with difficult colleagues

328
00:19:55,040 --> 00:20:00,040
or finding healthy routines while traveling has come up recently as well.

329
00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:01,360
That was a good one.

330
00:20:01,360 --> 00:20:02,440
And then it's just really interesting.

331
00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:07,040
I think you learn so much hearing people discuss topics like this that can also benefit you.

332
00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:12,520
Yeah, but it's so nice that you're providing the platform because usually, like I said

333
00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:17,680
before, you feel very isolated from the rest of the world.

334
00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:21,760
It's professional in many ways, especially as a pianist, right?

335
00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:26,960
Because we are not part of any group, any orchestra, any chamber.

336
00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:30,760
Well, sometimes chamber, but sometimes it's temporary thing.

337
00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:34,680
And mainly, we are really focused on our instruments.

338
00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:40,960
And so, you know, having to have that platform, be part of it and then feel like you're not

339
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alone.

340
00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:42,960
That's very important.

341
00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:43,960
Yeah, exactly.

342
00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:45,160
I mean, I am definitely a people person.

343
00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:48,360
And when I was in University of Montreal, you know, we would all practice on the same

344
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floor.

345
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We would have lunch together.

346
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We would chat in the hallways.

347
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So you have your people, you've got your bubble, you've got your crew.

348
00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:58,200
And then to leave that all at once, it was a shock to the system, you know, and it was

349
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kind of devastating to me personally as a very extroverted person.

350
00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:05,360
So you need that, like walk down the hallway and you say hi to everybody kind of thing.

351
00:21:05,360 --> 00:21:07,360
And so this is a virtual way to do that.

352
00:21:07,360 --> 00:21:11,400
And I always leave the calls feeling really refreshed and like, okay, I'm so glad we got

353
00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:13,940
to connect with these wonderful artists.

354
00:21:13,940 --> 00:21:17,080
So how exactly are you helping fellow musicians?

355
00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:23,120
You may be mentioned a little bit, but we do teach and give information, but we're much

356
00:21:23,120 --> 00:21:25,580
more about execution in the fearless artists.

357
00:21:25,580 --> 00:21:30,000
We are way more interested in making sure everyone leaves with something very specific

358
00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:32,920
that they're going to take action on like today.

359
00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:37,360
Because I think a lot of musicians are sitting on a wealth of information.

360
00:21:37,360 --> 00:21:41,840
They actually do know what to do, but there's some reason underneath why they haven't gotten

361
00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:45,440
started on it, whether it's overwhelmed, not knowing where to start or fear.

362
00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:50,960
So I would much rather that you glean one thing from a workshop with us and that you

363
00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:55,120
go put it into practice than if you have like a beautiful PDF slide that gets lost in your

364
00:21:55,120 --> 00:21:57,480
computer that you never look at again, right?

365
00:21:57,480 --> 00:22:00,720
So also with my classes, this is really the approach that I'm taking.

366
00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:05,360
I've learned to give them less information and ask them way more questions.

367
00:22:05,360 --> 00:22:06,360
Where are you at?

368
00:22:06,360 --> 00:22:07,360
What's helpful for you right now?

369
00:22:07,360 --> 00:22:08,980
Where are you thinking about this?

370
00:22:08,980 --> 00:22:12,120
And I think that's what we really do with our coaching is asking people, what specifically

371
00:22:12,120 --> 00:22:13,120
are you struggling with?

372
00:22:13,120 --> 00:22:17,400
Because we can talk all day about content strategies and finding more followers and

373
00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:19,840
getting fans and starting a concert series.

374
00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:25,320
But unless we know why you're not taking action on that, it doesn't matter how much to-do

375
00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:28,840
lists we create for you, you're still going to be stuck.

376
00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:32,080
So I think that's really something that sets us apart.

377
00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:33,920
That's really great to know.

378
00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:40,560
And I think usually it really comes from the fear, but also not knowing who you really

379
00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:41,560
are sometimes.

380
00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:42,560
Yeah, definitely.

381
00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:45,560
Like what sets you apart as an artist?

382
00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:47,700
And we're kind of all taught you need this unique selling point.

383
00:22:47,700 --> 00:22:49,000
And that kept me paralyzed for years.

384
00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:51,760
I'm like, oh no, I need to think of something special about me.

385
00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:53,120
What is this special something?

386
00:22:53,120 --> 00:22:58,480
And then finally I realized, and now I'm teaching this to my classes, you are already unique.

387
00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:03,020
You already have strengths and skills and passions that no one else has.

388
00:23:03,020 --> 00:23:06,760
So if you can discover what's already inside of you and then develop it and pursue it and

389
00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:11,360
craft it and then combine it with your passion at your instrument, you instantly set yourself

390
00:23:11,360 --> 00:23:16,360
apart in the market and you'll discover a wealth of opportunities that fit that role.

391
00:23:16,360 --> 00:23:17,840
For example, you have your podcast.

392
00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:20,280
I've used you as an example in my class before.

393
00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:22,080
You're a pianist who's a podcaster.

394
00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:24,600
Now you're not fighting against 5,000 other pianists.

395
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:29,060
You're differentiating yourself immediately by saying, this is what I do and this is how

396
00:23:29,060 --> 00:23:32,200
many people you've been able to connect with because of your podcast.

397
00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:35,900
So it's a great example of how when we choose something and find a problem in the market

398
00:23:35,900 --> 00:23:39,960
and step into that as a solution, we instantly find our place.

399
00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:40,960
Oh my goodness.

400
00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:46,520
I just feel like I'm empowered by your encouragement.

401
00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:49,560
I needed to hear that.

402
00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:56,160
No matter how many times you try to encourage yourself, sometimes doing these kind of work

403
00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:58,840
is usually by yourself.

404
00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:04,560
And it's like one episode at a time and as much as we believe in delayed gratification,

405
00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:08,760
but we're human, so we want to see instant gratification as well.

406
00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:09,760
I get that.

407
00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:13,960
I mean, it's very hard, you know, the drop in the ocean and to say, okay, one more drop

408
00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:14,960
today.

409
00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:19,960
But it is that consistency over time that people start to recognize who we are, what

410
00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:23,720
we stand for, talking about the same subjects and over and over until the message gets out

411
00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:24,720
there.

412
00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:26,000
You know, there are people who need to hear this.

413
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:31,560
I want to really find out how we can earn a decent income.

414
00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:32,800
What's your advice?

415
00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:40,240
I think I saw somewhere you mentioned that diversifying our income.

416
00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:42,600
So can you elaborate on that?

417
00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:45,700
Yeah, it's something we like to call a portfolio career.

418
00:24:45,700 --> 00:24:50,520
So just as when you have an investment portfolio, you're investing in different stocks and different

419
00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:53,520
gold and whatever, it's the same idea for your income.

420
00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:57,840
Then you think of or create five income streams for yourself.

421
00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:01,840
And when I first heard this concept, it was like, whoa, like you just instantly you feel

422
00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:04,000
kind of expand.

423
00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:07,640
And so at the time all of my income came from, you know, I was accompanying in a singing

424
00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:08,640
studio.

425
00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:09,720
Okay, that's a few hours a week.

426
00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:11,280
Then I had a few piano students.

427
00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:16,240
Okay, then I had some gigs, background gigs, and then I had concerts, which I separated

428
00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:17,240
in my head.

429
00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:20,200
And then I was, I think I was trying to figure out the fifth one, like, okay, what else can

430
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:21,200
I do?

431
00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:22,200
Oh, then I started teaching singing lessons.

432
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:23,200
Okay.

433
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:24,200
So I started teaching singing lessons for experience of income.

434
00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:29,000
So, you know, just like starting to look for it trains your brain to look for possibilities.

435
00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:33,000
Then there can be things like, you know, renting out a room in your apartment as Airbnb.

436
00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:35,560
Well, that's a couple hundred a month.

437
00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:38,680
Or then you realize that you know multiple languages and that there's someone who needs

438
00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:40,120
translation help.

439
00:25:40,120 --> 00:25:44,480
Or you're really good at tutoring math to high school kids for a few hours a week, or

440
00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:48,880
you can teach ESL online or, you know, we really encourage our clients looking at your

441
00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:50,480
strengths and skills because we're creative.

442
00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:54,520
You have so many things that you're good at, is there a way to earn from that?

443
00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:58,240
And then things like, you know, buying, putting a little bit aside every month into stocks.

444
00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:02,600
If you can do that and you start young enough, we'll just start now anyway, even if you're

445
00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:03,600
not young enough.

446
00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:07,240
But by the time you're 67, that compound interest is going to be very much on your side.

447
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:10,520
And then for those of us who are creatives, you know, we don't have pensions, for example,

448
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:13,280
you know, my parents are always so worried about my pension.

449
00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:17,080
Then it's like, well, don't worry, because when I'm 67, if the compound interest, you

450
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:21,360
know, we can look historically at the stock market, it'll be there.

451
00:26:21,360 --> 00:26:22,600
Just walk it away, don't touch it.

452
00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:25,840
A few, like a hundred a month or whatever it is that you can put aside now.

453
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:27,120
So I'm teaching this to my students too.

454
00:26:27,120 --> 00:26:32,640
And like, you guys are 20, get in on this, because that's a way to set yourself up, future

455
00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:33,640
you.

456
00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:37,880
You know, I think this portfolio career is also about looking at protecting and taking

457
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:39,680
care of the future version of you.

458
00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:44,480
And an artist, we learn scarcity mindsets, like we're grabbing at our pennies and we're

459
00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:48,840
looking at right now when we can't think ahead and we don't know how to plan for longterm.

460
00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:51,800
And I think that also comes from a lot of artists who do different programs every year.

461
00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:54,600
Well, I'm going to do a master's here, then I'm going to apply to this school.

462
00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:57,360
I'm constantly moving around and jumping from teacher to teacher.

463
00:26:57,360 --> 00:27:01,880
And so we never learned to really settle and put in roots and grow.

464
00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:05,640
And that was also, even after I chose to live in Europe, I was still kind of thinking, well,

465
00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:07,200
you know, I don't know how long I'm going to be here.

466
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:10,480
And then it just prevents you from really grounding yourself.

467
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:13,540
So yeah, all of those things combined, I think.

468
00:27:13,540 --> 00:27:17,480
And so then, for example, when you look at your other strengths and skills, like, you

469
00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:22,880
know, I realized quickly leadership was something that I had as well as speaking.

470
00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:27,340
So then workshop facilitation, I actually started in a different industry doing a few

471
00:27:27,340 --> 00:27:30,520
hours in this and then quickly realized it was something I enjoyed.

472
00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:34,680
So then changing it and bringing it into my music world just seemed very natural.

473
00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:36,480
And now we have a whole business around it.

474
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:43,200
So giving artists the possibility and permission to look outside of their immediate focus and

475
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:44,720
seeing how money can be coming in.

476
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:48,760
It's like giving four legs to your table provides stability.

477
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:52,400
And there is no shame in earning money outside of music.

478
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:55,240
And I think it's smart to earn money outside of music.

479
00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:57,600
It has nothing to do with your artistic status.

480
00:27:57,600 --> 00:27:59,000
Yeah, absolutely.

481
00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:01,320
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

482
00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:09,480
Now there's like sort of a misconception of the word business.

483
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:15,160
And every time I talk to my colleague, some colleagues and say, you know, they use the

484
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:16,160
word business.

485
00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:18,240
Oh, and then they said, oh, I don't do business.

486
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:19,440
I'm an artist.

487
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:20,440
They try to separate.

488
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:21,440
Right.

489
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:28,320
So but then I said to them, the word business is it's just a simple financial transaction.

490
00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:33,320
You provide certain service, whether that is a teaching or performing.

491
00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:38,380
And then in return, you get paid for that business transaction.

492
00:28:38,380 --> 00:28:44,320
So I'm not saying I'm not trying to sound like a snake oil business man here, but you

493
00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:45,320
know what I mean?

494
00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:51,760
So that's actually the start, I think, to demystify or debunking that sort of mindset.

495
00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:56,520
Yeah, you said at the beginning, like getting rid of these mindsets that don't help us.

496
00:28:56,520 --> 00:29:01,920
I mean, I think the connotation behind that is that if you think about art as a business,

497
00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:05,680
then you're taking away from just doing art because it's something that the world needs

498
00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:09,800
and it's human and it's about connection and all of those things are still true.

499
00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:12,280
And we would like to continue being able to do them.

500
00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:15,360
So therefore, it would be nice if we could pay our rent and live.

501
00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:19,820
So, I mean, it's kind of nice to just have both in mind.

502
00:29:19,820 --> 00:29:23,500
And I think it doesn't have anything to do with your intention over why you're practicing.

503
00:29:23,500 --> 00:29:26,360
And we are still practicing very long, unpaid hours.

504
00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:28,600
So you know, there you go.

505
00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:34,640
You are also teaching this entrepreneurship at university currently in two conservatories

506
00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:35,840
in the Netherlands.

507
00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:36,840
Yes.

508
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:40,880
Finally, I wish I learned this when I was in graduate school because nobody taught me

509
00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:44,800
about how the real life does look like as an artist.

510
00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:45,800
Right, freelance.

511
00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:48,480
Do you teach throughout the semester?

512
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:54,560
I don't know if the semester terminology semester makes sense to you in Europe, but yeah, our

513
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:57,360
the two conservatories have the curriculum set up differently.

514
00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:01,240
So one of them just has 16 lessons and we just kind of go weekly through a curriculum

515
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:03,640
that we've created with seven pillars.

516
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:09,280
The pillars include things like marketing, setting your fees, negotiating, freelance basics,

517
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:14,560
IP copyright, which is, you know, maybe you don't touch on so much for classical musicians,

518
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:18,080
but we also have pop and jazz students that are being taught.

519
00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:22,400
And then we have mindset pillar, which is of course, extremely important.

520
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:25,600
And then, you know, kind of the entrepreneurship mindset, like how do you start thinking like

521
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:26,600
this?

522
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:29,360
How do you start being someone who's training yourself to think in opportunities and not

523
00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:33,120
to say everything that's going to go wrong?

524
00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:34,560
That's very impressive.

525
00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:40,840
And so there is a sort of lectures, but also there are some practical exercises that you

526
00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:42,400
provide throughout the semester.

527
00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:46,400
Yeah, I mean, as I shared about the coaching, I really take the same approach with teaching

528
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:47,400
the students.

529
00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:51,040
So we have assignments that they need to do, but kind of in the class, I'm talking to them,

530
00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:52,520
I'm asking questions, we're having discussions.

531
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:56,840
And I'm also learning from them, you know, hearing from how things are on their end.

532
00:30:56,840 --> 00:31:02,040
And if they are where they are at in their mindset, and I'm finding very happily that

533
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:05,640
a lot of them are further ahead than our generation was.

534
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:08,480
So they are like, well, yeah, of course, a musician has to be an entrepreneur.

535
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:11,040
Like, of course, we need to think about how we're going to earn a living.

536
00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:13,280
And we're like, okay, awesome.

537
00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:14,280
Keep that.

538
00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:15,920
Oh, that's great.

539
00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:20,920
So what's the reaction from students by taking your class?

540
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:25,880
I just finished yesterday an intense two weeks basic courses called and it just finished

541
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:27,600
on a really high positive note.

542
00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:31,680
I was just buzzing when I left because at the beginning, they're maybe unsure.

543
00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:36,400
But what I really love to do is I have a whole list of what I call limiting beliefs.

544
00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:38,800
And I'm like, you might be thinking dot dot dot.

545
00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:39,800
I don't have time for this.

546
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:40,800
I need to practice.

547
00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:43,000
I'll figure this out when I'm done school.

548
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:44,680
I'm not a business person.

549
00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:45,960
I'm a musician.

550
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:49,280
I don't like putting myself in front of people and I'm uncomfortable.

551
00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:52,240
I hate social media because it's cringy or I compare myself.

552
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:53,760
You know, I've got this whole list of things.

553
00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:56,280
And then I say, okay, who believes anything on this slide?

554
00:31:56,280 --> 00:32:00,000
And then of course, like, all the hands go up and then we talk about it and we say, okay,

555
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:01,000
why do you think that?

556
00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:04,440
It's much more than we need telling them like you shouldn't think like this.

557
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:08,760
It's saying like, okay, this is how also I thought for a long time, some things I still

558
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:09,760
struggle with.

559
00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:11,560
Then we talk about, you know, fixed gross mindset.

560
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:15,940
Fixed mindset is that like all or nothing, black or white, right or wrong, good or bad,

561
00:32:15,940 --> 00:32:16,940
not good enough.

562
00:32:16,940 --> 00:32:17,940
That's part of a fixed mindset.

563
00:32:17,940 --> 00:32:21,440
Like an entrepreneur needs a gross mindset because you're going to have to look at there's

564
00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:23,480
room at the table for everyone.

565
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:25,840
I don't need to get a piece of this pie.

566
00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:30,280
I'm going to bake my own pie and I'm going to find a place in the market that suits my

567
00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:31,280
skills and strengths.

568
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:35,480
And so then when I start kind of giving them these mindset shifts, you can see their eyes

569
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:38,320
light up and then we talk about their individual strengths and skills.

570
00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:39,320
What are you good at?

571
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:40,320
What interests you?

572
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:43,920
We bring up the concept of Ikegai, fulfillment of purpose.

573
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:46,860
Then I get them to share in the class and you know, then they're just kind of bouncing

574
00:32:46,860 --> 00:32:52,880
off each other because again, that community aspect, community learning I think is so crucial.

575
00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:56,160
And then the classes can be really fun because now we're just having a conversation about

576
00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:59,480
how exciting your life could look like as an artist and how you're going to be able

577
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:02,840
to sustain that and being around people who understand you.

578
00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:06,600
And I think it's really this feeling of connection and belonging.

579
00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:08,520
Wow.

580
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:09,520
Thank you so much.

581
00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:10,520
You're welcome.

582
00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:11,520
I mean, you have to ask them.

583
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:12,520
I mean, maybe this is just my impression.

584
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:14,320
You know, you can ask them on the feedback form.

585
00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:15,320
Did you actually like your class?

586
00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:16,320
I don't know.

587
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:19,400
I should let them talk to themselves.

588
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:21,360
Yeah, maybe that's the next step.

589
00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:25,240
Like you know, asking for what is a Google form and yeah, exactly.

590
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:30,800
But that's great, but how did you get into this teaching at university?

591
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:32,800
Was the university open to this idea?

592
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:35,080
They actually had the position open up.

593
00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:38,120
So they had the course running for a few years already.

594
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:40,880
But to my understanding, it was just very basic in the sense that they were teaching

595
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:42,660
taxes and how to send invoices.

596
00:33:42,660 --> 00:33:47,140
So the course had a little bit of a bad reputation as being just super dry and boring.

597
00:33:47,140 --> 00:33:51,720
And then my current colleague started building a different curriculum.

598
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:54,800
She's in marketing for an opera school in Spain.

599
00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:58,360
So then she brought in a lot of curriculum around marketing and branding and you know,

600
00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:03,080
Seth Godin's work on the Purple Cow, for example, and started teaching that.

601
00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:06,240
And then it just became bigger than a one person job.

602
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:11,160
So they opened up the position and I had two people send it to me and said, this is you,

603
00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:12,300
apply.

604
00:34:12,300 --> 00:34:14,520
And I was so excited.

605
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:19,160
I was teaching a piano lesson and I just like ran out and I was on the phone and it was

606
00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:20,840
someone who had called me and I was like, what?

607
00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:23,200
I can't believe that the job's open.

608
00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:26,280
And the fearless artists have been running for about a year.

609
00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:30,720
So with that in mind, I could just show them, look, like this is our work with our clients.

610
00:34:30,720 --> 00:34:33,440
And then it was just a really good fit for both of us.

611
00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:34,800
Wow, that's amazing.

612
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:35,800
Yeah.

613
00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:40,400
I would love to sign up for your unit class.

614
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:43,840
We used to teach exclusively online and then I could just let you sit in on the team's

615
00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:44,840
call.

616
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:45,840
Yeah.

617
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:47,760
I mean, I would love that.

618
00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:55,000
And then I hear that there are some classes or course open up at higher education here,

619
00:34:55,000 --> 00:35:01,520
like music institutions, like I don't know, Juilliard or I don't know about MSM, about

620
00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:03,880
entrepreneurship or music business.

621
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:04,880
Yeah.

622
00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:08,520
I actually was just on Chris's podcast, Honesty Pill.

623
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:10,380
Maybe you know him, he's in LA.

624
00:35:10,380 --> 00:35:13,780
And I saw he was giving a guest lecture at Juilliard in their entrepreneurship class.

625
00:35:13,780 --> 00:35:15,560
So I know that there's something going on there.

626
00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:16,560
Wow.

627
00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:17,560
Yeah.

628
00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:18,560
I mean, I think that's a good time.

629
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:24,000
But also having to have this internet access to especially Instagram, Facebook, that sort

630
00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:28,320
of thing, allowing us to be more independent, right?

631
00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:32,760
You don't have to have an agent to represent you.

632
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:36,840
You can be your own agency and represent yourself.

633
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:37,840
Yeah.

634
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:39,320
You might be familiar with Bernhard Keras.

635
00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:44,920
He's over here in Vienna, but he has an entire, his business is called Be Your Own Manager.

636
00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:47,800
And he's got great courses for musicians.

637
00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:52,240
He actually taught the class that I teach at now too, he's done a workshop for us.

638
00:35:52,240 --> 00:35:56,280
And he's really talking about how to differentiate yourself as an artist and pursuing what you

639
00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:57,800
love and building a career that you love.

640
00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:00,880
And he's got a great book and it outlines everything that you should be taking care

641
00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:02,880
of on the business of music.

642
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:32,520
So I really recommend that.

643
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:41,680
Now, I'm curious to know you as a musician.

644
00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:44,960
You're not only a classical pianist, but also a singer too.

645
00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:50,520
And I watched the videos playing traditional piano repertoire, like Mendelssohn and other

646
00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:55,040
pieces, but also I've listened to your original songs on Spotify.

647
00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:57,800
So did you grow up in a musical family?

648
00:36:57,800 --> 00:36:59,580
Yes, definitely I did.

649
00:36:59,580 --> 00:37:01,680
They would not say that I did, but I did.

650
00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:05,680
My dad played drums in a country band for 10 years and my mom started me at the piano

651
00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:08,900
when I was four and my dad and I were always singing.

652
00:37:08,900 --> 00:37:13,720
So music was always on in the home and I grew up, like I can sing every lyric to every country

653
00:37:13,720 --> 00:37:15,520
song in the nineties.

654
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:19,480
And then just years and years of doing music festivals and performances and recitals.

655
00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:23,680
I had a great teacher that started me, very encouraging, wonderful.

656
00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:27,400
And then she handed me off to someone who was more advanced, who pushed me and got me

657
00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:34,040
going into this more intense version of piano playing that we both know.

658
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:36,280
And yeah, from there it just continued.

659
00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:39,400
But I also took singing lessons, classical singing until I was 14.

660
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:42,320
But I remember when I was young, I told my mom I wanted to be a country singer when I

661
00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:43,320
grew up.

662
00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:46,420
So it's always been in me to be this kind of other genre singer.

663
00:37:46,420 --> 00:37:48,080
And so it's coming out now.

664
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:50,400
Well, that's sweet.

665
00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:55,440
I like the contrast between the classical music and the country songs.

666
00:37:55,440 --> 00:38:00,360
But country music as in, I don't know, is it a country music that I'm thinking of?

667
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:03,480
Oh, like typical North, like American country music.

668
00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:04,480
Totally.

669
00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:05,480
Oh, yeah.

670
00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:06,480
Wow.

671
00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:07,480
Okay.

672
00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:10,560
I mean, no, I'm writing songs that are more in like a contemporary pop style, I would

673
00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:11,560
say.

674
00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:14,600
But just knowing that that was my upbringing is just fun to think back now.

675
00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:16,920
Yeah, that is very interesting.

676
00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:21,400
But somehow, you know, you're not really separating your identity like that.

677
00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:24,800
You're trying to merge everything together because that's who you are, no?

678
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:28,560
Yeah, well, that's actually like a recent discovery because I think in the past, I have

679
00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:31,760
tried to hide like, oh, my singing side, I've just kind of pushed it to the side or it's

680
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:33,320
like this other thing that I do.

681
00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:37,840
And now I'm learning much more like, if we're going to talk about what makes you stand out,

682
00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:40,880
you know, it's not every pianist who can also sing and play.

683
00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:45,280
So that's something that that's an individual thing and I love to do.

684
00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:46,800
So I'm learning to embrace it.

685
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:49,920
I'm learning to embrace even though it's a different genre and you have all of these

686
00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:55,600
limiting beliefs about what would people think if she's doing pop songs.

687
00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:58,760
So I've learned to kind of let go of all of that and just be like, you know what, this

688
00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:02,040
is giving me a lot of joy and I want to pursue this as well.

689
00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:08,320
Yeah, coming against a lot of mindset things or just hang up, you get stuck on, you know.

690
00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:10,880
But in the end, I'm learning to let go of all that.

691
00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:19,800
I think inclusion in or in diversifying literature in piano has become big.

692
00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:25,240
And as you mentioned, I interviewed a seat at the piano in the in the previous episodes

693
00:39:25,240 --> 00:39:29,800
and then really diversifying the literature is so big and I really love that.

694
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:37,760
So I think it makes sense that now you can put you in classical music world, right?

695
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:42,480
Instead of just playing good old white male, you know, composers.

696
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:43,920
Dead white guys, yeah.

697
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:44,920
Yeah, definitely.

698
00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:48,240
No, I loved that episode with the seat at the piano and I think the work is really important

699
00:39:48,240 --> 00:39:50,240
to show what else is available.

700
00:39:50,240 --> 00:39:55,920
I was at a piano festival in Portugal and there was I think a Chinese girl playing a

701
00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:59,080
piece from China that I'd never heard that was just fabulous.

702
00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:00,840
And then you're like, what is that?

703
00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:02,920
Like I've never, nobody knows these things.

704
00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:04,160
It's a great piece.

705
00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:08,040
And I mean, this music deserves to be heard and it deserves a platform.

706
00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:10,800
So it's great when we can bring in other other things.

707
00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:14,640
And also it just feeds our creative soul to hear something outside the box.

708
00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:16,960
As you're saying, if we're going to learn how to think like that, then we also need

709
00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:19,440
to listen to as many different styles as we can.

710
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:22,240
You know, that's something my vocal coach really encourages me to do.

711
00:40:22,240 --> 00:40:26,020
He'll make me listen to all sorts of stuff just to kind of fill your tank and to give

712
00:40:26,020 --> 00:40:29,480
you new ideas and new sounds and new impressions.

713
00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:30,900
So we're not always in the same vein.

714
00:40:30,900 --> 00:40:33,920
And I think that will enrich our classical interpretations.

715
00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:36,000
What do you offer as a performing artist?

716
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:43,080
Like do you just play solo piano pieces or do you also sometimes do your country singing

717
00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:46,560
during the concert, especially in New York?

718
00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:48,240
I'm very curious to know.

719
00:40:48,240 --> 00:40:52,080
What I can really offer audiences is I really like to talk to the audience.

720
00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:54,600
I like to be in connection with them.

721
00:40:54,600 --> 00:41:00,120
I'm playing for Candlelight Concerts now and that's a space where I can take time between

722
00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:04,960
the pieces and really share some thoughts or stories or about the music or something

723
00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:06,940
funny that happened to me.

724
00:41:06,940 --> 00:41:11,440
And just to kind of engage the audience that way and get them maybe to laugh or to listen

725
00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:12,860
in a different way.

726
00:41:12,860 --> 00:41:18,120
And then at the end, I'm finding a huge response of emotion that people come up to me and they'll

727
00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:22,460
share stories with me about their families or people who have passed or difficult things

728
00:41:22,460 --> 00:41:23,460
that they've gone through.

729
00:41:23,460 --> 00:41:27,400
Or they'll tell me, you know, I came in here, I had a really rough few weeks and this has

730
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:28,400
really helped me.

731
00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:32,880
I was very astounded at the level of intimacy that people share with me also in Instagram

732
00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:33,880
messages afterwards.

733
00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:38,920
But then I realized I think it's because I, from the piano, share something about me with

734
00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:39,920
them.

735
00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:43,160
So that kind of creates a space where they feel that there's an openness there.

736
00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:45,800
And so Candlelight is much more in like kind of a pop style.

737
00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:50,600
So there I have sang some of my own songs as an encore, for example, at the end.

738
00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:55,000
But in my strictly classical concerts, I run a series over here, Chamber Music Series.

739
00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:58,560
I'm learning how to kind of maybe approach the audience like that too, where I'm going

740
00:41:58,560 --> 00:41:59,600
to be more personal with them.

741
00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:03,840
But I still feel myself snap back into this very strict version of me where I'm like,

742
00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:05,320
I walk on stage and I have to be serious.

743
00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:06,320
I'm going to bow.

744
00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:09,720
And like now I'm starting to open up a little bit more as I get more comfortable.

745
00:42:09,720 --> 00:42:12,240
But again, you don't want to like, you know where the lines are and you don't want to

746
00:42:12,240 --> 00:42:15,520
bend the lines too much because you want to be accepted by everyone in your genre and

747
00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:18,000
your industry and you want to show that you belong.

748
00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:22,760
And so it's again, coming against all of these things that we've learned to be true.

749
00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:26,120
And then, yeah, it's an interesting journey, I think.

750
00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:27,560
Yeah, it is.

751
00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:34,440
And I think a lot of some artists that I've interviewed, they started doing that talk

752
00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:39,280
and it tried to engage with audience with not just the music, but the way they present

753
00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:40,280
the music.

754
00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:43,880
So they would have a microphone on the stage and then talk to the audience, that sort of

755
00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:44,880
thing.

756
00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:46,520
But when you do, what do you share?

757
00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:51,360
Do you talk about the piece you're about to play or is it more thematic or?

758
00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:52,360
Yeah.

759
00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:54,000
So it depends what program I'm playing.

760
00:42:54,000 --> 00:43:00,080
So actually, for example, I just did a concert yesterday at Day of the Piano, it was called,

761
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:06,200
and I played a variety of Chopin, Ravel, Beethoven, and then Gabriel Dupont, a French composer,

762
00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:07,920
and then some Hans Zimmer at the end.

763
00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:12,320
So there I really went deep into the music and I explained, you know, there's a Hans

764
00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:16,520
Zimmer piece where it starts with the marimba and then it comes in at the electric cello

765
00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:20,680
and then the electric violin and then layer upon layer, he creates this soundscape and

766
00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:25,000
then a choir comes in and then I say, you know, I'm happy to tell you all that the choir

767
00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:26,480
part will be played by you today.

768
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:29,200
So everybody laughs, you know, just kind of relaxes.

769
00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:33,320
They don't sing, but and then I play this piece for them.

770
00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:36,360
So I've kind of explained to them, I think it's like teaching the audience how to actively

771
00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:37,680
listen to what I would say.

772
00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:42,080
So then with the Ravel, I played Pevelle, Paule, and Alphonse de Fent and I explained

773
00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:45,400
the, you know, the layers of sound that he's using as well as the colors.

774
00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:50,480
And I related that to an impressionist palette of color that you visually see.

775
00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:51,960
Well, now you're about to listen to that.

776
00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:53,400
So listen for how the sounds are different.

777
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:57,360
And then I talked about how my hand has to touch the keys in a different way to create

778
00:43:57,360 --> 00:43:58,360
different sounds.

779
00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:02,520
And I just kind of went more deep because it was supposed to be more of a detailed explanation

780
00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:03,520
concert.

781
00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:04,520
It was like an outreach event.

782
00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:08,720
But if I'm playing like a candlelight show, you know, I do Coldplay for them a lot.

783
00:44:08,720 --> 00:44:14,280
So then I just share about the lyrics or about the story behind the song or why fix you.

784
00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:18,360
Chris Martin wrote that when Gwyneth Paltrow's dad died and that was his way to support her.

785
00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:21,400
So I share that and then I read some of the lyrics and then the audience is like, oh,

786
00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:22,400
we get why.

787
00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:26,800
I think if you can tell the audience why about the music, they instantly have this deeper

788
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:28,240
connection to it.

789
00:44:28,240 --> 00:44:33,540
And then, you know, the one story that I love to tell is when I play Ludovico and Audi program.

790
00:44:33,540 --> 00:44:38,600
And I once had a man come up to me at the end and he said, there are two pieces in the

791
00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:40,220
world that make me cry.

792
00:44:40,220 --> 00:44:42,160
And one of them is this piece by an Audi.

793
00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:43,160
Do you know it?

794
00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:44,160
And I was like, yeah, I know it.

795
00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:45,160
I can play it for you.

796
00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:46,760
And I said, why does it make you cry?

797
00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:51,120
And he said, well, I'm dreaming of the day that I will walk my daughter down the aisle

798
00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:52,120
to this piece.

799
00:44:52,120 --> 00:44:54,120
Oh, that's so beautiful.

800
00:44:54,120 --> 00:44:55,120
Congratulations.

801
00:44:55,120 --> 00:44:56,120
When's the big day?

802
00:44:56,120 --> 00:44:57,120
He said, oh, she's 12.

803
00:44:57,120 --> 00:45:02,680
I thought that was so funny.

804
00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:06,000
And now I've told that story, I don't know, 50 times.

805
00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:10,160
So I'm just thinking if this poor guy ever knew, like you have to be very careful what

806
00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:13,400
you tell me now, because I might tell the stage.

807
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:15,640
So I don't know, just anything to make the audience kind of laugh.

808
00:45:15,640 --> 00:45:16,960
And then that's what they remember.

809
00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:19,340
They'll say, oh, I love that piece about the dad and the daughter.

810
00:45:19,340 --> 00:45:20,340
And what was it again?

811
00:45:20,340 --> 00:45:21,800
And I'm going to go home and listen to it.

812
00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:26,600
And then you're just seeing how when we can connect on a human level, the music just makes

813
00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:28,880
much more sense and they get it.

814
00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:29,880
Music comes alive, right?

815
00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:30,880
Yeah.

816
00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:31,880
I know.

817
00:45:31,880 --> 00:45:32,880
So you mentioned Coldplay.

818
00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:33,880
Yeah.

819
00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:37,240
Do you do piano arrangement of that?

820
00:45:37,240 --> 00:45:38,240
Yeah.

821
00:45:38,240 --> 00:45:40,560
So I have an entire program for Coldplay that we do.

822
00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:43,480
I think they do them in the States as well, but in Candlelight.

823
00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:47,860
So Candlelight is a concert series and they put thousands of candles surrounding you on

824
00:45:47,860 --> 00:45:51,280
stage and they book these insanely beautiful venues.

825
00:45:51,280 --> 00:45:54,960
And so I have eight different programs for them that I play and one of them is Coldplay.

826
00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:55,960
Wow.

827
00:45:55,960 --> 00:45:57,160
And that's your arrangement?

828
00:45:57,160 --> 00:46:01,880
I found a bunch of the scores that were printed and then I just kind of go with my inspiration

829
00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:04,800
as I'm killing, you know, so I'm like, I need more octaves here.

830
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:05,800
I need more bass.

831
00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:07,800
So I just wait for you to figure it out.

832
00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:08,800
So yeah.

833
00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:09,800
Oh, wow.

834
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:10,800
That is cool.

835
00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:14,720
I like to think about that kind of Japan's transcriptions too.

836
00:46:14,720 --> 00:46:15,720
Yeah.

837
00:46:15,720 --> 00:46:18,200
People can relate to you better that way.

838
00:46:18,200 --> 00:46:19,200
Yeah.

839
00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:24,680
Even my students are playing more pop songs, but in a nice arrangement, nice kind of transcriptions.

840
00:46:24,680 --> 00:46:25,680
Yeah.

841
00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:26,680
Yeah.

842
00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:29,320
So I guess you could say it's like classically arranged Coldplay is what I'm playing for

843
00:46:29,320 --> 00:46:32,720
these concerts and it just goes really well.

844
00:46:32,720 --> 00:46:35,960
It's in a very aesthetic, atmospheric kind of emotional setting.

845
00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:38,760
So hey there, TPP family.

846
00:46:38,760 --> 00:46:44,360
The PianoPod is now into our fourth season and it's all thanks to you.

847
00:46:44,360 --> 00:46:50,360
Since 2020, you've been with my journey with the TPP, exploring this burning question.

848
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:55,520
How do we make classical music resonate with today's audience in fresh and captivating

849
00:46:55,520 --> 00:46:56,520
ways?

850
00:46:56,520 --> 00:47:00,360
Four years in and the journey has been nothing short of magical.

851
00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:06,200
The PianoPod isn't just a podcast, it's a movement, a space where pianists, composers

852
00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:12,440
and educators brainstorm, debate and reimagine classical music's place in our fast paced

853
00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:13,440
world.

854
00:47:13,440 --> 00:47:19,000
We're together on a mission to ensure classical music doesn't just survive, but thrives

855
00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:20,440
in our modern age.

856
00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:25,880
But here's the thing, to keep bringing you these insightful bi-weekly episodes, I need

857
00:47:25,880 --> 00:47:27,000
your help.

858
00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:32,820
Every bit of support goes into the podcast essentials from hosting to high quality recording

859
00:47:32,820 --> 00:47:36,520
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860
00:47:36,520 --> 00:47:38,840
So do you want to be part of this journey?

861
00:47:38,840 --> 00:47:43,920
Click the PayPal link in the show notes or head to thepianopod.com to donate.

862
00:47:43,920 --> 00:47:52,000
And as a token of appreciation, I will personally mail you the PianoPod's snazzy logo sticker.

863
00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:57,440
So hit the subscribe button, spread the word and let's continue our mission and journey

864
00:47:57,440 --> 00:47:59,680
as classical musicians.

865
00:47:59,680 --> 00:48:02,480
Now let's continue with the show.

866
00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:07,840
You released several solo on Spotify, I found them.

867
00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:13,120
And then one was Empty Promises and another is Let Me Heal and I'm Here.

868
00:48:13,120 --> 00:48:15,400
So can you talk about that a little bit?

869
00:48:15,400 --> 00:48:16,400
What are those songs?

870
00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:18,760
These are original songs, right?

871
00:48:18,760 --> 00:48:19,760
Yeah, definitely.

872
00:48:19,760 --> 00:48:24,640
So most of us went through a terrible time in 2020 and mine was especially difficult

873
00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:25,640
personally.

874
00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:29,520
So music was just, it was the only way that I was knowing how to kind of process what

875
00:48:29,520 --> 00:48:33,180
I was going through and releasing all of the emotion and grief inside.

876
00:48:33,180 --> 00:48:38,280
So I sat down at the piano and I just, my writing process is finding some chords and

877
00:48:38,280 --> 00:48:40,400
maybe singing a melody over it.

878
00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:42,380
The words usually come later.

879
00:48:42,380 --> 00:48:45,840
And then I hit, you know, voice record on my phone and I'll get a little segment and

880
00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:49,080
then I'll forget about it for like five months and then I'll get something else and I'll

881
00:48:49,080 --> 00:48:50,080
piece it together.

882
00:48:50,080 --> 00:48:54,280
And then I met a producer and I always knew that I wanted to kind of release songs, but

883
00:48:54,280 --> 00:48:57,680
I was, you know, stuck in a lot of fear and perfectionism.

884
00:48:57,680 --> 00:48:59,880
But I met my producer and he's like, show me your stuff.

885
00:48:59,880 --> 00:49:00,880
Like, what do you have?

886
00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:04,480
And so I gave him a few pieces and he's like, oh, this is great.

887
00:49:04,480 --> 00:49:05,480
We can work with this.

888
00:49:05,480 --> 00:49:08,720
And then he kind of just put his magic touch on things and then we worked together in the

889
00:49:08,720 --> 00:49:09,720
studio.

890
00:49:09,720 --> 00:49:11,480
And then I learned, you know, I have a great vocal coach.

891
00:49:11,480 --> 00:49:14,560
I learned how to record and it was like a whole new world for me.

892
00:49:14,560 --> 00:49:17,940
This other side, you know, it's like you're a musician your entire life and you actually

893
00:49:17,940 --> 00:49:21,120
know nothing about what it takes to record and distribute a single.

894
00:49:21,120 --> 00:49:25,480
So I had to learn that whole side, which is what we teach to like, you know, the pop students.

895
00:49:25,480 --> 00:49:29,320
So now I'm trying to teach the class as well in case they ever want to like release their

896
00:49:29,320 --> 00:49:31,360
own music.

897
00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:33,560
And I've released four songs.

898
00:49:33,560 --> 00:49:34,960
I have one coming out this Friday.

899
00:49:34,960 --> 00:49:35,960
It's the last single.

900
00:49:35,960 --> 00:49:39,680
And then I'm going to be recording a few piano pieces to add to kind of make my first album

901
00:49:39,680 --> 00:49:41,440
a compilation of my two genres.

902
00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:44,160
Like here's the classical and pop version of me.

903
00:49:44,160 --> 00:49:47,640
And I don't have to choose because we're outside of the box artists.

904
00:49:47,640 --> 00:49:49,800
We're not, we're not stuck anymore.

905
00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:55,600
But tell me about the song that the newest one that's coming up this Friday.

906
00:49:55,600 --> 00:49:57,440
Yeah, I'm so excited about this one.

907
00:49:57,440 --> 00:49:59,320
It's called In the In-Between.

908
00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:03,800
And it's that season of your life where you've made it out of the valley and the worst is

909
00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:08,280
over, but you still don't know where you're going and you don't have any answers yet,

910
00:50:08,280 --> 00:50:09,280
but you're okay.

911
00:50:09,280 --> 00:50:15,880
And you have a lot of trust, but you just really wish that you could know for sure.

912
00:50:15,880 --> 00:50:19,400
But it's just kind of about accepting that it's not there yet.

913
00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:23,160
I think there's like, you know, maybe it's the American culture of like, everything's

914
00:50:23,160 --> 00:50:24,160
great.

915
00:50:24,160 --> 00:50:25,160
Put a smile on.

916
00:50:25,160 --> 00:50:26,160
You're going to be fine.

917
00:50:26,160 --> 00:50:29,320
You know, you fall over and it's like, are you okay?

918
00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:32,560
And I heard, you know, the Russian equivalent of when you fall over, somebody says, are

919
00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:33,560
you hurt?

920
00:50:33,560 --> 00:50:34,560
Right.

921
00:50:34,560 --> 00:50:35,560
And we're all just like, you're fine.

922
00:50:35,560 --> 00:50:36,560
You're fine.

923
00:50:36,560 --> 00:50:37,560
You're not bleeding.

924
00:50:37,560 --> 00:50:38,560
You're fine.

925
00:50:38,560 --> 00:50:39,560
And so I had people telling me that, you know, you're fine.

926
00:50:39,560 --> 00:50:40,560
Don't worry about it.

927
00:50:40,560 --> 00:50:41,560
You're going to get through this.

928
00:50:41,560 --> 00:50:42,880
And it's like, no, I'm not fine.

929
00:50:42,880 --> 00:50:47,040
And I need someone to like, I need to be okay and saying, this is where I am.

930
00:50:47,040 --> 00:50:48,840
And I'm going to be really honest.

931
00:50:48,840 --> 00:50:51,960
And I'm not going to pretend that I'm not bleeding.

932
00:50:51,960 --> 00:50:55,560
And so then in between is just saying like, I don't have the answers.

933
00:50:55,560 --> 00:50:57,160
And I, people will say, what are you going to do?

934
00:50:57,160 --> 00:50:58,160
Where are you going to move?

935
00:50:58,160 --> 00:50:59,160
Where are you going to go?

936
00:50:59,160 --> 00:51:00,160
What's happening?

937
00:51:00,160 --> 00:51:01,160
I'm like, I don't know.

938
00:51:01,160 --> 00:51:02,160
I don't know.

939
00:51:02,160 --> 00:51:03,160
I'm doing my best.

940
00:51:03,160 --> 00:51:04,160
That's what I can tell you.

941
00:51:04,160 --> 00:51:08,520
And I'm doing my best to steward everything that I've been given and to take good opportunities

942
00:51:08,520 --> 00:51:09,880
and to manage myself well.

943
00:51:09,880 --> 00:51:13,160
But I know that I have faults and I know I have weaknesses.

944
00:51:13,160 --> 00:51:18,780
And I'm just going to accept myself in this weakness and process and who I am today.

945
00:51:18,780 --> 00:51:23,880
So I think the song has a lot of self-acceptance themes in it as well as, and letting go of

946
00:51:23,880 --> 00:51:26,520
this, I have to keep this perfect image up all the time.

947
00:51:26,520 --> 00:51:27,840
It's like, no, I don't.

948
00:51:27,840 --> 00:51:28,840
I can't.

949
00:51:28,840 --> 00:51:29,840
It would break me.

950
00:51:29,840 --> 00:51:35,720
Thank you for really being so open about it because nobody wants to talk about that.

951
00:51:35,720 --> 00:51:38,760
People think that that's a negative thing to say.

952
00:51:38,760 --> 00:51:41,440
They say that I should be more open.

953
00:51:41,440 --> 00:51:47,800
So when I started speaking about the reality or something that I went through and I overcome

954
00:51:47,800 --> 00:51:53,080
and then people really reject it because it's a connotation of negativity, but it's not.

955
00:51:53,080 --> 00:51:54,080
I overcome.

956
00:51:54,080 --> 00:51:55,080
So here we go.

957
00:51:55,080 --> 00:51:56,080
It's positive.

958
00:51:56,080 --> 00:52:00,200
But people are uncomfortable with vulnerability, I think, because everybody likes to have a

959
00:52:00,200 --> 00:52:02,680
mask and just pretend.

960
00:52:02,680 --> 00:52:03,680
Everything's great.

961
00:52:03,680 --> 00:52:04,680
How are you?

962
00:52:04,680 --> 00:52:05,680
I'm great.

963
00:52:05,680 --> 00:52:08,920
And I'm not saying you need to tell a stranger on the street your deepest trauma, but I am

964
00:52:08,920 --> 00:52:13,240
saying that sometimes to ourselves, we can lie and pretend like you're fine.

965
00:52:13,240 --> 00:52:15,920
And then there's a disconnect inside.

966
00:52:15,920 --> 00:52:20,640
And as I've learned to grow as an artist and learn to treat my inner artists with respect

967
00:52:20,640 --> 00:52:24,520
and kindness, which is part of overcoming perfectionism, you have to learn how to let

968
00:52:24,520 --> 00:52:26,840
go of that inner critic that we hear constantly.

969
00:52:26,840 --> 00:52:32,280
And okay, if I'm going to learn to love myself and to speak with gentleness and self-compassion

970
00:52:32,280 --> 00:52:35,160
and kindness and all of that stuff, then I guess I better get to know who that person

971
00:52:35,160 --> 00:52:39,840
is and why have I been so mean and what's actually going on inside.

972
00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:43,320
It's like, oh, she's really hurt and she needs to express herself.

973
00:52:43,320 --> 00:52:47,320
So that's what I did and then we recorded it and now it's out in the world.

974
00:52:47,320 --> 00:52:50,200
And the first four songs, I mean, it was very vulnerable to release them.

975
00:52:50,200 --> 00:52:53,560
You just kind of like, you do this, you're pushing it out in the world and you're just

976
00:52:53,560 --> 00:52:54,720
like, don't look.

977
00:52:54,720 --> 00:52:56,080
I don't want to hear it.

978
00:52:56,080 --> 00:52:57,080
Don't tell me what you think.

979
00:52:57,080 --> 00:52:59,080
I don't want to know.

980
00:52:59,080 --> 00:53:01,680
So that's a little bit how I felt, especially with Let Me Heal.

981
00:53:01,680 --> 00:53:04,080
That one's a very intense personal song.

982
00:53:04,080 --> 00:53:05,800
But people have been great.

983
00:53:05,800 --> 00:53:07,720
There's been a great encouragement coming back to me.

984
00:53:07,720 --> 00:53:11,040
And the streams are not huge numbers, but I don't need them to be huge numbers.

985
00:53:11,040 --> 00:53:13,400
I just needed to release what was inside of me.

986
00:53:13,400 --> 00:53:14,400
And who knows?

987
00:53:14,400 --> 00:53:17,360
I'm sure it'll keep going because I have more things to write.

988
00:53:17,360 --> 00:53:18,360
Wow.

989
00:53:18,360 --> 00:53:23,760
But it's so wonderful that you can actually use music to express yourself because as a

990
00:53:23,760 --> 00:53:28,040
classically trained musician, that's not easy to do.

991
00:53:28,040 --> 00:53:36,080
But I think your upbringing and love for country music and these things, I don't know, really.

992
00:53:36,080 --> 00:53:39,880
And maybe you had some training of writing songs too?

993
00:53:39,880 --> 00:53:43,720
Yeah, I actually did a songwriting course during COVID and it was in the States.

994
00:53:43,720 --> 00:53:45,520
So I was at 1 a.m.

995
00:53:45,520 --> 00:53:48,000
I was on Zoom trying to learn how to write a chorus.

996
00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:50,320
But that was another really fun adventure.

997
00:53:50,320 --> 00:53:54,000
And that's what we were talking about with helping artists discover their full potential.

998
00:53:54,000 --> 00:53:57,840
It's like, well, look at your other interests and learn and educate yourself on that because

999
00:53:57,840 --> 00:53:58,840
you're right.

1000
00:53:58,840 --> 00:54:01,520
Your classical training was probably very limiting in the fact that you don't even know

1001
00:54:01,520 --> 00:54:02,520
how to improvise.

1002
00:54:02,520 --> 00:54:03,520
Right.

1003
00:54:03,520 --> 00:54:06,720
We don't even want to sit down and play if we don't have the score.

1004
00:54:06,720 --> 00:54:10,600
And you've practiced four to six hours a day for how many years and you won't play unless

1005
00:54:10,600 --> 00:54:11,600
you have it memorized?

1006
00:54:11,600 --> 00:54:12,600
Like, I'm sorry.

1007
00:54:12,600 --> 00:54:16,040
Something is very wrong in how we've taught people to approach the instrument.

1008
00:54:16,040 --> 00:54:18,320
And there should be way more freedom in it.

1009
00:54:18,320 --> 00:54:19,320
Absolutely.

1010
00:54:19,320 --> 00:54:22,800
So I interviewed these people, experts in that too.

1011
00:54:22,800 --> 00:54:23,800
So oh, great.

1012
00:54:23,800 --> 00:54:26,360
Yeah, I will listen to that episode happily.

1013
00:54:26,360 --> 00:54:27,360
Yes.

1014
00:54:27,360 --> 00:54:30,400
It's a theory called music learning theory.

1015
00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:38,280
And then they're really changing the way we teach students, not just notes on the score,

1016
00:54:38,280 --> 00:54:40,960
but to think of it like a learning language.

1017
00:54:40,960 --> 00:54:44,040
You don't start out by learning letters, right?

1018
00:54:44,040 --> 00:54:47,160
As a toddler, they yeah, they started speaking first.

1019
00:54:47,160 --> 00:54:48,160
Right.

1020
00:54:48,160 --> 00:54:49,160
So the same thing.

1021
00:54:49,160 --> 00:54:50,160
Same goes with music.

1022
00:54:50,160 --> 00:54:51,560
It should be taught that way.

1023
00:54:51,560 --> 00:54:52,560
So I completely agree.

1024
00:54:52,560 --> 00:54:53,560
That sounds wonderful.

1025
00:54:53,560 --> 00:54:56,560
So speaking of music education, so you are an educator.

1026
00:54:56,560 --> 00:54:58,680
So I want to ask a few questions about that.

1027
00:54:58,680 --> 00:55:03,240
So how has the music education evolved over the past decade?

1028
00:55:03,240 --> 00:55:06,920
And what are the most significant change you've observed?

1029
00:55:06,920 --> 00:55:13,200
I saw that question in your preparation and I thought how it's changed would be a shift

1030
00:55:13,200 --> 00:55:15,320
towards embracing entrepreneurship.

1031
00:55:15,320 --> 00:55:20,260
I think the fact that there's even courses being starting to be offered is a huge shift.

1032
00:55:20,260 --> 00:55:22,800
And I would say that is in the last decade because when I was in school, I don't remember

1033
00:55:22,800 --> 00:55:24,420
hearing anything about it.

1034
00:55:24,420 --> 00:55:27,200
In Europe, I had a girl from Spain yesterday.

1035
00:55:27,200 --> 00:55:28,740
She said, we have nothing like this in Spain.

1036
00:55:28,740 --> 00:55:29,940
So I don't think it's everywhere.

1037
00:55:29,940 --> 00:55:32,560
But you know, I think it's varying for institution.

1038
00:55:32,560 --> 00:55:36,080
And as it's becoming more talked about, also our work at the Fearless Artist is about getting

1039
00:55:36,080 --> 00:55:38,200
visible and just sharing the message.

1040
00:55:38,200 --> 00:55:40,440
People are like, oh yeah, we do need to talk about this.

1041
00:55:40,440 --> 00:55:44,080
And why did I not learn anything about this in school?

1042
00:55:44,080 --> 00:55:46,320
So I think that's a great shift.

1043
00:55:46,320 --> 00:55:51,080
Embracing you know, people like motivational speakers have helped me so much with the entrepreneurial

1044
00:55:51,080 --> 00:55:55,960
mindset following people like Gary Vee, who talks about how to create opportunities, how

1045
00:55:55,960 --> 00:56:01,600
to create income, looking, all of that stuff relates to us as creatives and other creative

1046
00:56:01,600 --> 00:56:02,600
influencers.

1047
00:56:02,600 --> 00:56:04,080
There's an artist that I follow.

1048
00:56:04,080 --> 00:56:10,240
I think her name is Josie Lewis, art, art, and she shows how she's creating and also

1049
00:56:10,240 --> 00:56:15,920
selling and then I don't, it's just like a really beautiful, clear way of this is how

1050
00:56:15,920 --> 00:56:18,560
I earn a living doing what I love.

1051
00:56:18,560 --> 00:56:21,720
And when somebody breaks it down for you and gives you an example of what it could look

1052
00:56:21,720 --> 00:56:24,800
like, it gives you a lot of ideas and it brings clarity and vision.

1053
00:56:24,800 --> 00:56:28,920
And I think that's how I've really inspired myself is by looking at other people who are

1054
00:56:28,920 --> 00:56:31,520
achieving a level of success and saying, okay, like they're doing it.

1055
00:56:31,520 --> 00:56:32,520
There's a way to do it.

1056
00:56:32,520 --> 00:56:33,840
Like let's find the way.

1057
00:56:33,840 --> 00:56:38,680
How relevant is classical training in today's diverse musical landscape?

1058
00:56:38,680 --> 00:56:40,600
I think our classical education is the foundation.

1059
00:56:40,600 --> 00:56:46,000
I think it's so crucial to have our harmonic understanding, our technical understanding.

1060
00:56:46,000 --> 00:56:51,680
I mean, we have a facility, we have an ability, we have so much about my training.

1061
00:56:51,680 --> 00:56:57,760
I did not recognize how good it was until I got older and I saw people who hadn't had,

1062
00:56:57,760 --> 00:57:01,520
you know, I did the Royal Conservatory of Music in Canada and I know your guest from

1063
00:57:01,520 --> 00:57:05,760
a seat at the piano also mentioned RCM and you know, I had like ear training exams and

1064
00:57:05,760 --> 00:57:09,260
I had sight reading exams and sight reading is one of my biggest assets now.

1065
00:57:09,260 --> 00:57:14,320
So I think it's due to RCM and because I had this kind of rigorous upbringing now I can

1066
00:57:14,320 --> 00:57:15,320
play anything.

1067
00:57:15,320 --> 00:57:16,800
You put anything in front of me, I can play it.

1068
00:57:16,800 --> 00:57:20,880
Like I've played for churches, I've played for like pop concerts, I've played background

1069
00:57:20,880 --> 00:57:21,880
music.

1070
00:57:21,880 --> 00:57:26,000
Like I can, you know, I can do it and there's a lot of pianists who maybe didn't have that

1071
00:57:26,000 --> 00:57:28,160
training who then don't have that skill.

1072
00:57:28,160 --> 00:57:33,640
And so I think, yeah, the more and more I've valued that upbringing and then you can translate

1073
00:57:33,640 --> 00:57:34,640
to any genre, right?

1074
00:57:34,640 --> 00:57:39,240
Because like I just saw an ad this morning for this guy, you know, those stupid ads we

1075
00:57:39,240 --> 00:57:41,280
get on YouTube about simply piano or whatever.

1076
00:57:41,280 --> 00:57:45,400
He's like, if you have one hour this week, you can learn a hundred songs because you

1077
00:57:45,400 --> 00:57:46,400
only need four chords.

1078
00:57:46,400 --> 00:57:47,880
And I'm like, you know what?

1079
00:57:47,880 --> 00:57:48,880
He's right.

1080
00:57:48,880 --> 00:57:53,920
You can learn a hundred songs.

1081
00:57:53,920 --> 00:57:55,840
But like, okay, fine, you know?

1082
00:57:55,840 --> 00:58:00,960
So I'm much happier that I started classical and then I can like have more added to my

1083
00:58:00,960 --> 00:58:05,000
play than if I started limited with four chords and then now I'm trying to learn scales or

1084
00:58:05,000 --> 00:58:06,000
something.

1085
00:58:06,000 --> 00:58:07,000
Yeah, absolutely.

1086
00:58:07,000 --> 00:58:08,000
Yes.

1087
00:58:08,000 --> 00:58:09,000
Thank you.

1088
00:58:09,000 --> 00:58:12,160
That's exactly what I wanted to hear.

1089
00:58:12,160 --> 00:58:17,960
So how can educators prepare students for this rapidly changing musical world?

1090
00:58:17,960 --> 00:58:21,080
The musical world changes, you know, very quickly.

1091
00:58:21,080 --> 00:58:27,400
Yeah, I think the first thing is staying relevant and staying informed, talking to other people.

1092
00:58:27,400 --> 00:58:29,120
How are you teaching this concept?

1093
00:58:29,120 --> 00:58:30,840
What's your tech setup?

1094
00:58:30,840 --> 00:58:34,120
What's going on with this new platform software app?

1095
00:58:34,120 --> 00:58:37,120
I mean, tech is changing so fast.

1096
00:58:37,120 --> 00:58:42,240
And especially with COVID, like we all kind of learned way more about video and audio

1097
00:58:42,240 --> 00:58:43,240
editing.

1098
00:58:43,240 --> 00:58:45,520
I mean, I had very, very little skills.

1099
00:58:45,520 --> 00:58:49,280
I still don't have very many, but I have more than I used to.

1100
00:58:49,280 --> 00:58:53,080
The fact that we all started recording and posting or playing online or doing a live

1101
00:58:53,080 --> 00:58:57,160
stream concert, which I did from my living room, that was a Vancouver series.

1102
00:58:57,160 --> 00:58:58,160
That was a cool day.

1103
00:58:58,160 --> 00:59:02,680
An educator needs to have a flexible mindset and open mindset, willing to continue learning

1104
00:59:02,680 --> 00:59:06,920
the latest editions of the books that are coming out, willing to keep up with the rapid

1105
00:59:06,920 --> 00:59:08,600
change in technology.

1106
00:59:08,600 --> 00:59:12,960
And TikTok is a huge deal for a lot of independent artists.

1107
00:59:12,960 --> 00:59:16,120
They are able to get visibility and break through the market.

1108
00:59:16,120 --> 00:59:17,200
They don't need a label.

1109
00:59:17,200 --> 00:59:20,280
And so many people are like, TikTok, I would never download that app.

1110
00:59:20,280 --> 00:59:24,360
It's like, okay, but like, there's so much opportunity here that you just dismiss because

1111
00:59:24,360 --> 00:59:26,960
maybe a lack of understanding or, I don't know.

1112
00:59:26,960 --> 00:59:30,840
So I think it's important that we just try and stay aware of what's going on out there

1113
00:59:30,840 --> 00:59:32,240
and staying in no.

1114
00:59:32,240 --> 00:59:37,760
Now we have to go into a little bit more deep conversation.

1115
00:59:37,760 --> 00:59:41,160
So I want to ask more philosophical questions.

1116
00:59:41,160 --> 00:59:45,480
So it's the vision of the classical music industry.

1117
00:59:45,480 --> 00:59:46,560
So let's start with this.

1118
00:59:46,560 --> 00:59:50,200
So we touched a little bit of pandemic impact.

1119
00:59:50,200 --> 00:59:55,760
So what did the pandemic teach us, us as in classical musicians?

1120
00:59:55,760 --> 00:59:59,880
Do you think it was there any big shift in our industry?

1121
00:59:59,880 --> 01:00:02,440
Was it a long-term change?

1122
01:00:02,440 --> 01:00:05,680
And is it about the way we reach out to the audience?

1123
01:00:05,680 --> 01:00:10,200
Or maybe is it about classical musicians' perspectives on our career?

1124
01:00:10,200 --> 01:00:17,440
I mean, we had nearly three years to think about, meditate on these thoughts, right?

1125
01:00:17,440 --> 01:00:26,200
And then, or are there, is there any new emerging genres mixed with classical music due to those

1126
01:00:26,200 --> 01:00:34,160
times or any, or maybe our mindset toward this traditional image or perception of being

1127
01:00:34,160 --> 01:00:36,360
a classical music has changed.

1128
01:00:36,360 --> 01:00:39,620
But what would be the biggest change that you feel?

1129
01:00:39,620 --> 01:00:45,880
I think one of the positive things of COVID was bringing people together in an online

1130
01:00:45,880 --> 01:00:49,320
sense and the tech that changed so rapidly.

1131
01:00:49,320 --> 01:00:53,640
I mean, that people were now being able to give online lessons, for example.

1132
01:00:53,640 --> 01:00:59,560
So Zoom sound is obviously not great, but there were a lot of new platforms that emerged,

1133
01:00:59,560 --> 01:01:05,120
external microphones being used, or new ways to reach teacher-student.

1134
01:01:05,120 --> 01:01:08,320
And many university professors were teaching now exclusively.

1135
01:01:08,320 --> 01:01:11,720
So I don't know, in that sense, it kind of provides more possibilities, you know, less

1136
01:01:11,720 --> 01:01:14,680
travel time, less commute time wasted.

1137
01:01:14,680 --> 01:01:18,640
My entrepreneurship class was taught exclusively online for an entire year.

1138
01:01:18,640 --> 01:01:22,760
And that just meant that once the pandemic was over, I could be traveling and still teach

1139
01:01:22,760 --> 01:01:23,760
my class.

1140
01:01:23,760 --> 01:01:26,040
So in a sense, there was a lot of possibilities there.

1141
01:01:26,040 --> 01:01:30,720
I also had something where I started doing online concerts, which I had never done before.

1142
01:01:30,720 --> 01:01:34,960
And only after the pandemic did I realize I could be playing for a lot of people in

1143
01:01:34,960 --> 01:01:37,720
Canada online who want to hear me.

1144
01:01:37,720 --> 01:01:42,380
And I could have done that way before lockdown, but I never thought to put an offer together

1145
01:01:42,380 --> 01:01:47,760
like that because I didn't have this closed door of you can't leave your house.

1146
01:01:47,760 --> 01:01:53,080
So I like to share with my grandma, she was in a care home and I felt very far from her,

1147
01:01:53,080 --> 01:01:54,080
obviously.

1148
01:01:54,080 --> 01:01:57,320
And then as soon as lockdown happened, I realized we can FaceTime and I can play for her over

1149
01:01:57,320 --> 01:01:58,320
FaceTime.

1150
01:01:58,320 --> 01:02:01,840
Well, why was I not doing that the entire time that I've been living in Holland and

1151
01:02:01,840 --> 01:02:02,840
she's been in the care home?

1152
01:02:02,840 --> 01:02:07,160
But that just like wasn't even a thought because we didn't, limitation brings direction.

1153
01:02:07,160 --> 01:02:10,760
When doors close, you are forced to say what is now possible.

1154
01:02:10,760 --> 01:02:14,720
And I found that there were kind of two mindsets among people, classical musicians that I was

1155
01:02:14,720 --> 01:02:15,720
talking to.

1156
01:02:15,720 --> 01:02:18,880
One is like everyone's panicking, like the sky is falling, it's going to be over.

1157
01:02:18,880 --> 01:02:20,280
We're never going to have concerts again.

1158
01:02:20,280 --> 01:02:24,720
Like I did hear people say this, will we ever return to the concert hall?

1159
01:02:24,720 --> 01:02:28,600
You know, I mean, I thought that was a pretty bold statement, but I also didn't have any

1160
01:02:28,600 --> 01:02:30,000
certainty over what was happening.

1161
01:02:30,000 --> 01:02:31,000
So who knows, right?

1162
01:02:31,000 --> 01:02:33,560
And then things are being dealt with very differently in the Netherlands compared to

1163
01:02:33,560 --> 01:02:34,640
France.

1164
01:02:34,640 --> 01:02:38,120
And so there was so much uncertainty about how things are being dealt with.

1165
01:02:38,120 --> 01:02:41,720
Then we went into lockdown for, you know, we'd go in for three weeks, then we'd come

1166
01:02:41,720 --> 01:02:43,640
out, I could play a concert for 30 people.

1167
01:02:43,640 --> 01:02:47,380
We had to be sitting one seat in between every single person.

1168
01:02:47,380 --> 01:02:50,320
So we'd have like a full theater with 30 people in it.

1169
01:02:50,320 --> 01:02:52,160
Then we'd go into lockdown again, everything canceled.

1170
01:02:52,160 --> 01:02:56,800
It was just like this bag of more than, so I think a flexible mindset, being open to

1171
01:02:56,800 --> 01:03:01,760
change, being willing to adapt are all like really things that helped people get through

1172
01:03:01,760 --> 01:03:02,760
that.

1173
01:03:02,760 --> 01:03:07,680
And then with the one side was saying everything's over and then the other side was saying, okay,

1174
01:03:07,680 --> 01:03:08,880
what's possible now?

1175
01:03:08,880 --> 01:03:11,080
And so for us, we were focusing on the fearless artists.

1176
01:03:11,080 --> 01:03:12,360
I started doing online concerts.

1177
01:03:12,360 --> 01:03:14,240
I think I did 40 of them.

1178
01:03:14,240 --> 01:03:15,800
I made like a couple of Instagram posts.

1179
01:03:15,800 --> 01:03:21,000
I called it for your ears only you and the loved one will get to choose from a menu of

1180
01:03:21,000 --> 01:03:27,040
like easy listening pieces, Chopin, Beethoven, Ravel, insert list, keys, whatever here.

1181
01:03:27,040 --> 01:03:30,280
And then I just had wonderful connections with people, conversations like this, you

1182
01:03:30,280 --> 01:03:33,360
know, about the music in online from my living room.

1183
01:03:33,360 --> 01:03:36,680
And I put my concert dress on and I took it like a serious concert.

1184
01:03:36,680 --> 01:03:38,000
And I don't know that brought a lot of joy.

1185
01:03:38,000 --> 01:03:39,000
And I thought, this is interesting.

1186
01:03:39,000 --> 01:03:43,360
This is something I never would have done if I hadn't been forced to think about it.

1187
01:03:43,360 --> 01:03:45,320
So yeah, I don't know.

1188
01:03:45,320 --> 01:03:47,800
It was thought provoking that season.

1189
01:03:47,800 --> 01:03:52,800
Yeah, but I love the way you shift your mind toward that.

1190
01:03:52,800 --> 01:03:58,360
Like when we are going through adversities, you don't go, oh, this is impossible.

1191
01:03:58,360 --> 01:03:59,360
I'm done.

1192
01:03:59,360 --> 01:04:01,320
I'm I'm my life is over.

1193
01:04:01,320 --> 01:04:02,760
My career is over.

1194
01:04:02,760 --> 01:04:04,600
You think, oh, what's the possibility here?

1195
01:04:04,600 --> 01:04:05,600
What can I do?

1196
01:04:05,600 --> 01:04:07,240
Well, what's missing?

1197
01:04:07,240 --> 01:04:08,960
And then, oh, I can learn this.

1198
01:04:08,960 --> 01:04:09,960
I can learn that.

1199
01:04:09,960 --> 01:04:12,080
I love that sort of mindset.

1200
01:04:12,080 --> 01:04:17,240
And having Diana to help me with that, of course, like I think on my own, it's easy

1201
01:04:17,240 --> 01:04:21,360
to not have that trippy wake up in the morning and look for the possibility.

1202
01:04:21,360 --> 01:04:25,480
But when you're able to talk to people who are close to you and share verbally and then

1203
01:04:25,480 --> 01:04:26,480
say, okay, now what?

1204
01:04:26,480 --> 01:04:29,200
Like, yes, we can complain and we're scared and we don't know what's happening.

1205
01:04:29,200 --> 01:04:32,640
And like lockdown, she wasn't you know, Diana couldn't leave her Paris apartment for more

1206
01:04:32,640 --> 01:04:35,280
than one hour, once a day, one kilometer radius.

1207
01:04:35,280 --> 01:04:37,160
I mean, it was just it was insane.

1208
01:04:37,160 --> 01:04:41,160
But then it's like, OK, well, let's work on our workshops and facilitating and finding

1209
01:04:41,160 --> 01:04:44,840
new clients and posting on our Instagram and let's see what happens.

1210
01:04:44,840 --> 01:04:48,080
What's your thought on keeping classical music relevant?

1211
01:04:48,080 --> 01:04:52,560
And you already mentioned, but you know, this industry thriving in this fast paced society.

1212
01:04:52,560 --> 01:04:59,000
You know, I struggled as a piano teacher living in New York City and teaching young children

1213
01:04:59,000 --> 01:05:02,960
to start with back in 2006 or seven.

1214
01:05:02,960 --> 01:05:09,520
And I was in I was quite shocked of, you know, their especially parents, their knowledge

1215
01:05:09,520 --> 01:05:12,560
of music, what it takes to learn music.

1216
01:05:12,560 --> 01:05:14,000
So I want to know.

1217
01:05:14,000 --> 01:05:15,440
I mean, limited knowledge, right?

1218
01:05:15,440 --> 01:05:16,440
Just to clarify.

1219
01:05:16,440 --> 01:05:17,440
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

1220
01:05:17,440 --> 01:05:18,440
Yeah.

1221
01:05:18,440 --> 01:05:21,200
So they treat it like a hobby and it's like a once a week thing and they don't practice

1222
01:05:21,200 --> 01:05:22,200
in between.

1223
01:05:22,200 --> 01:05:23,200
Right.

1224
01:05:23,200 --> 01:05:25,400
And to many, many, so many things.

1225
01:05:25,400 --> 01:05:30,360
I mean, I can talk about this forever, but I feel like as a job, as a piano teacher was

1226
01:05:30,360 --> 01:05:37,280
more than just teaching music, I think of educating so much more and educating the parents

1227
01:05:37,280 --> 01:05:38,440
to many things.

1228
01:05:38,440 --> 01:05:43,600
So what do you think keeping classical music or music education relevant in this industry

1229
01:05:43,600 --> 01:05:44,600
thriving?

1230
01:05:44,600 --> 01:05:51,480
I have been thinking recently about adapting to audience needs and making I think part

1231
01:05:51,480 --> 01:05:55,160
of our job is performing artists, which we also maybe aren't taught about in school,

1232
01:05:55,160 --> 01:05:57,440
just to become educators of the music.

1233
01:05:57,440 --> 01:06:03,260
If you want to have new audiences who have, let's say, zero classical music training,

1234
01:06:03,260 --> 01:06:08,040
you cannot expect them to come sit through a symphony, which is one hour long, quietly,

1235
01:06:08,040 --> 01:06:12,920
not move, not cough, not rattle their rappers and then come out and have like this profound

1236
01:06:12,920 --> 01:06:15,440
experience like they have no idea what they just listened to.

1237
01:06:15,440 --> 01:06:16,680
They don't know what to listen to.

1238
01:06:16,680 --> 01:06:18,680
They don't understand where it came from.

1239
01:06:18,680 --> 01:06:20,400
They don't understand anything about the composer.

1240
01:06:20,400 --> 01:06:25,040
Like, OK, they can read the program notes, but that still takes like a highly, you know,

1241
01:06:25,040 --> 01:06:28,840
there's like a certain level of intelligence or trained person who's going to sit there

1242
01:06:28,840 --> 01:06:34,040
and have the patience and, you know, with social media ruining our attention spans,

1243
01:06:34,040 --> 01:06:38,480
I think that we have to kind of learn to bring the music to the people.

1244
01:06:38,480 --> 01:06:43,480
And I love this concept of sitting at the piano with a microphone and talking the audience

1245
01:06:43,480 --> 01:06:49,160
through what you're about to hear and sharing the story or connecting with them.

1246
01:06:49,160 --> 01:06:52,680
And then, and then they are, as we already said, they're much more willing to listen,

1247
01:06:52,680 --> 01:06:54,600
but they also know what they're listening to.

1248
01:06:54,600 --> 01:06:58,440
And the example I like to use is when I go to a museum, I look at these paintings.

1249
01:06:58,440 --> 01:06:59,440
I am overwhelmed.

1250
01:06:59,440 --> 01:07:00,440
They're beautiful.

1251
01:07:00,440 --> 01:07:01,440
I'm highly impressed.

1252
01:07:01,440 --> 01:07:03,160
I still don't know what I'm looking at.

1253
01:07:03,160 --> 01:07:07,560
I don't have so much art history education, so I don't know what the symbolism of this

1254
01:07:07,560 --> 01:07:11,800
color means or what this, you know, this vase that they're using represented.

1255
01:07:11,800 --> 01:07:16,400
So I get the audio tour and I pay the five bucks and I walk around with the little receiver

1256
01:07:16,400 --> 01:07:18,680
in my hand and it explains the painting to me.

1257
01:07:18,680 --> 01:07:21,800
And then I'm like, wow, this is amazing.

1258
01:07:21,800 --> 01:07:26,440
So like, I think that for our audiences, it is our job to say, this is what you're about

1259
01:07:26,440 --> 01:07:32,840
to hear and to help them because it's on us to teach them, it's on them.

1260
01:07:32,840 --> 01:07:37,880
And to also present concerts in maybe a more relaxed setting, you know, and so candidly,

1261
01:07:37,880 --> 01:07:41,040
just coming back to that, that's why I just really love this concept because I think that

1262
01:07:41,040 --> 01:07:46,920
they are a bridge from another genre concert where people, by the way, if you go to a festival,

1263
01:07:46,920 --> 01:07:50,200
they're drunk and they're yelling and they're talking and they're listening to the music,

1264
01:07:50,200 --> 01:07:55,560
but are they really, I mean, you know, to the other extreme of everyone is dead silent

1265
01:07:55,560 --> 01:07:56,560
like a mouse.

1266
01:07:56,560 --> 01:07:59,920
So then candidly comes in and they're like, we're going to give you the wow factor.

1267
01:07:59,920 --> 01:08:01,240
You're going to have thousands of candles.

1268
01:08:01,240 --> 01:08:04,640
It's in this gorgeous cathedral and you're going to listen to an hour of easy listening

1269
01:08:04,640 --> 01:08:08,240
music that you already know because you already know the band or you know the composer or

1270
01:08:08,240 --> 01:08:09,240
whatever.

1271
01:08:09,240 --> 01:08:11,920
So then people are like, oh, I've had so many people come up to me and say, that was my

1272
01:08:11,920 --> 01:08:12,920
first piano concert.

1273
01:08:12,920 --> 01:08:13,920
Thank you so much.

1274
01:08:13,920 --> 01:08:14,920
I loved it.

1275
01:08:14,920 --> 01:08:19,280
I'm like, how much more likely are these people now going to go to the symphony or to the

1276
01:08:19,280 --> 01:08:23,040
concerto performance because they have some understanding of what it's going to be like

1277
01:08:23,040 --> 01:08:26,880
and they're not freaked out by the elitism, you know, of the fancy gowns.

1278
01:08:26,880 --> 01:08:30,800
And I just had one of my friends go to a concert in Norway to the symphony and she got side

1279
01:08:30,800 --> 01:08:34,120
eyed by an older lady because she was in casual clothing.

1280
01:08:34,120 --> 01:08:37,680
And so there's still this idea of like, you go to symphony, you need to dress up and like,

1281
01:08:37,680 --> 01:08:39,360
okay, let's just let people be people.

1282
01:08:39,360 --> 01:08:45,240
If it's about the music and let's bring them to accept people how they are and introduce

1283
01:08:45,240 --> 01:08:46,240
them to what we do.

1284
01:08:46,240 --> 01:08:50,760
And then many of them would like it and they would stick around, you know, and then it

1285
01:08:50,760 --> 01:08:52,960
helps dismantle this classical music is dying.

1286
01:08:52,960 --> 01:08:57,400
It's like, well, maybe you should just change the packaging of your messaging.

1287
01:08:57,400 --> 01:08:58,400
Yeah.

1288
01:08:58,400 --> 01:09:03,080
The whole entire branding needs to be really updated, upgraded.

1289
01:09:03,080 --> 01:09:04,840
I think we're working on it, but yeah.

1290
01:09:04,840 --> 01:09:08,040
Yeah, there's new concepts that are coming through that are exciting or like, you know,

1291
01:09:08,040 --> 01:09:12,800
some friends in Montreal had this concert series in a restaurant cafe for a while and

1292
01:09:12,800 --> 01:09:16,320
people would get up and they would play a piece or two and then, you know, it's much

1293
01:09:16,320 --> 01:09:19,960
more casual setting, but we're still enjoying this great music and it doesn't diminish or

1294
01:09:19,960 --> 01:09:21,840
dumb down the music to do it like that.

1295
01:09:21,840 --> 01:09:22,840
Yes.

1296
01:09:22,840 --> 01:09:25,280
I think that's some of the fear behind like, oh, we have to be very serious because what

1297
01:09:25,280 --> 01:09:26,280
we do is very serious.

1298
01:09:26,280 --> 01:09:33,280
It's like, yes, but like you can say that our work is excellent and still be more friendly

1299
01:09:33,280 --> 01:09:36,520
or kind or casual or just like, like relax a little bit.

1300
01:09:36,520 --> 01:09:39,360
You could still play to a very high level and be chill.

1301
01:09:39,360 --> 01:09:40,880
So I don't know.

1302
01:09:40,880 --> 01:09:46,600
Come into that because dumbing down never works because, you know, the audiences are

1303
01:09:46,600 --> 01:09:48,440
not dumb, right?

1304
01:09:48,440 --> 01:09:50,480
And they want high quality.

1305
01:09:50,480 --> 01:09:53,760
And we don't want to diminish the art either because like we're trying to aspire to something

1306
01:09:53,760 --> 01:09:55,200
greater than ourselves.

1307
01:09:55,200 --> 01:09:58,320
So we don't want to bring it down to our level, but I think that there is a way to make it

1308
01:09:58,320 --> 01:10:02,320
maybe more palatable for people who have no introduction to it.

1309
01:10:02,320 --> 01:10:08,280
Then what is your thought on our duty or gift as classical musicians to society at large?

1310
01:10:08,280 --> 01:10:13,480
I say a lot to people, you have a gift that needs to be seen.

1311
01:10:13,480 --> 01:10:18,000
So you know, a city, a light on a hill cannot be under a lamp, right?

1312
01:10:18,000 --> 01:10:19,560
Under a, it cannot be hidden.

1313
01:10:19,560 --> 01:10:20,980
I think is the saying.

1314
01:10:20,980 --> 01:10:27,920
So if you have a light and you have a gift, you may also have a duty to put it out there.

1315
01:10:27,920 --> 01:10:32,980
And whether that's through letting people in through your process on social media or

1316
01:10:32,980 --> 01:10:38,260
starting a mailing list or a blog or finding ways to reach people, you know, people always

1317
01:10:38,260 --> 01:10:41,120
argue, well, word of mouth, like, okay, fine.

1318
01:10:41,120 --> 01:10:43,400
You can build your career in a local word of mouth sense.

1319
01:10:43,400 --> 01:10:46,280
Like word of mouth, of course, is extremely powerful, but I think it's only amplified

1320
01:10:46,280 --> 01:10:47,280
with our online presence.

1321
01:10:47,280 --> 01:10:50,840
I mean, you and I would not be talking right now if it was word of mouth that I relied

1322
01:10:50,840 --> 01:10:52,160
on to build my career, right?

1323
01:10:52,160 --> 01:10:56,840
So like, I mean, it just gives you so many opportunities if you could share with people,

1324
01:10:56,840 --> 01:10:58,800
hey, this is what I think and this is what I do.

1325
01:10:58,800 --> 01:11:00,240
And maybe it's interesting to you too.

1326
01:11:00,240 --> 01:11:02,040
And we could connect about it.

1327
01:11:02,040 --> 01:11:06,080
And so I think that we have a duty to share what we're doing and to find the audiences

1328
01:11:06,080 --> 01:11:07,480
who need what we have to say.

1329
01:11:07,480 --> 01:11:09,600
Well, Michelle, we can talk about this forever.

1330
01:11:09,600 --> 01:11:16,080
I'm really thoroughly enjoying our conversation, but we're coming to an end of our conversation.

1331
01:11:16,080 --> 01:11:19,520
So I have a few more questions if that's okay.

1332
01:11:19,520 --> 01:11:21,000
So definitely.

1333
01:11:21,000 --> 01:11:27,960
What's the next phase, next goal for you and for your business, the Fearless Artist Mastermind?

1334
01:11:27,960 --> 01:11:32,960
The Fearless Artist Mastermind, we are currently growing our membership community.

1335
01:11:32,960 --> 01:11:38,160
I would love to see that where we have multiple pods for different time zones so the North

1336
01:11:38,160 --> 01:11:41,440
Americans can join something that's maybe in an evening because right now we can't have

1337
01:11:41,440 --> 01:11:44,520
any evenings because I'm over here in Europe.

1338
01:11:44,520 --> 01:11:49,320
So I think expanding that, we've brought in a number of great guest workshop speakers,

1339
01:11:49,320 --> 01:11:54,200
the Bulletproof musician, Noah Kiyama came in and did a workshop for us.

1340
01:11:54,200 --> 01:11:58,480
My great colleague in Rotterdam came in and did a branding workshop for us.

1341
01:11:58,480 --> 01:12:03,280
So I would just love to get outside influences coming to speak to our community.

1342
01:12:03,280 --> 01:12:07,800
Personally, I'm releasing this fifth song and going to be recording the rest of the

1343
01:12:07,800 --> 01:12:14,040
album to release and learning the marketing side and overcoming any limiting beliefs about

1344
01:12:14,040 --> 01:12:18,080
constantly having to put yourself out there on socials and building a fan base.

1345
01:12:18,080 --> 01:12:23,680
I think just continuing to pursue excellence in performing and scaling that.

1346
01:12:23,680 --> 01:12:29,200
Just a quick shout out to our audience about your coaching program and also your release

1347
01:12:29,200 --> 01:12:30,800
on Friday, that song.

1348
01:12:30,800 --> 01:12:34,640
Yeah, the fearless artist mastermind.com and you can also find us on Instagram and everything

1349
01:12:34,640 --> 01:12:37,000
is there for how to join one of our programs.

1350
01:12:37,000 --> 01:12:38,000
Great.

1351
01:12:38,000 --> 01:12:42,280
And then your personal website is the michellelinnpianist.com, right?

1352
01:12:42,280 --> 01:12:43,280
Yes.

1353
01:12:43,280 --> 01:12:45,800
And on Instagram, I am this is Michelle Lin.

1354
01:12:45,800 --> 01:12:46,800
Great.

1355
01:12:46,800 --> 01:12:47,800
Thank you.

1356
01:12:47,800 --> 01:12:50,400
So before we, I will let you go.

1357
01:12:50,400 --> 01:12:58,200
We have one more thing to do is it's called the piano pods rapid fire questions where

1358
01:12:58,200 --> 01:13:02,120
this part of the show where I get to ask fun questions to each guest.

1359
01:13:02,120 --> 01:13:06,560
And here's a little twist as silly as these questions may sound, your answers may reveal

1360
01:13:06,560 --> 01:13:08,480
who you truly are.

1361
01:13:08,480 --> 01:13:11,480
So ready or not.

1362
01:13:11,480 --> 01:13:12,480
Yes.

1363
01:13:12,480 --> 01:13:13,480
Yes.

1364
01:13:13,480 --> 01:13:14,480
Okay.

1365
01:13:14,480 --> 01:13:15,820
Please answer them with the shortest responses as possible.

1366
01:13:15,820 --> 01:13:18,360
No explanation is necessary.

1367
01:13:18,360 --> 01:13:19,360
Level one.

1368
01:13:19,360 --> 01:13:21,720
What is your comfort food?

1369
01:13:21,720 --> 01:13:23,640
Spaghetti.

1370
01:13:23,640 --> 01:13:25,440
How do you like your coffee?

1371
01:13:25,440 --> 01:13:26,440
Black.

1372
01:13:26,440 --> 01:13:28,440
Oh, cat or dog?

1373
01:13:28,440 --> 01:13:29,440
Dog.

1374
01:13:29,440 --> 01:13:30,800
Oh, you have a dog?

1375
01:13:30,800 --> 01:13:32,440
He's on the couch right now.

1376
01:13:32,440 --> 01:13:33,440
She is.

1377
01:13:33,440 --> 01:13:34,440
Oh my goodness.

1378
01:13:34,440 --> 01:13:35,440
So sweet.

1379
01:13:35,440 --> 01:13:36,440
So cute.

1380
01:13:36,440 --> 01:13:37,440
I love her so much.

1381
01:13:37,440 --> 01:13:38,440
She's my best friend.

1382
01:13:38,440 --> 01:13:39,440
What is her name?

1383
01:13:39,440 --> 01:13:40,440
What's her name?

1384
01:13:40,440 --> 01:13:44,880
Her name is Hannah and she's a rescue from Cyprus.

1385
01:13:44,880 --> 01:13:45,880
Oh wow.

1386
01:13:45,880 --> 01:13:46,880
Really Hannah.

1387
01:13:46,880 --> 01:13:48,320
Oh, how sweet.

1388
01:13:48,320 --> 01:13:49,440
Okay.

1389
01:13:49,440 --> 01:13:52,800
So next one, sunrise or sunset?

1390
01:13:52,800 --> 01:13:53,800
Sunrise.

1391
01:13:53,800 --> 01:13:55,840
Summer or winter?

1392
01:13:55,840 --> 01:13:56,840
Summer.

1393
01:13:56,840 --> 01:13:57,840
Okay.

1394
01:13:57,840 --> 01:13:59,320
Paper book or ebook?

1395
01:13:59,320 --> 01:14:00,320
Paper book.

1396
01:14:00,320 --> 01:14:01,320
Hmm.

1397
01:14:01,320 --> 01:14:02,320
Interesting.

1398
01:14:02,320 --> 01:14:06,960
Now level two.

1399
01:14:06,960 --> 01:14:07,960
Level two.

1400
01:14:07,960 --> 01:14:12,240
What skill have you always wanted to learn but haven't had a chance to?

1401
01:14:12,240 --> 01:14:13,240
Dancing.

1402
01:14:13,240 --> 01:14:14,240
Hmm.

1403
01:14:14,240 --> 01:14:15,240
Oh wow.

1404
01:14:15,240 --> 01:14:16,440
What kind of dancing?

1405
01:14:16,440 --> 01:14:17,440
I don't know.

1406
01:14:17,440 --> 01:14:20,720
I want to be more flexible and like coordinated in general.

1407
01:14:20,720 --> 01:14:21,720
Okay.

1408
01:14:21,720 --> 01:14:22,800
Sounds good.

1409
01:14:22,800 --> 01:14:25,600
What is your word or words to live by?

1410
01:14:25,600 --> 01:14:27,040
Laughter is the best medicine.

1411
01:14:27,040 --> 01:14:29,000
Ah, that's great.

1412
01:14:29,000 --> 01:14:33,480
What is the most important quality you look for in other people?

1413
01:14:33,480 --> 01:14:34,480
Compassion.

1414
01:14:34,480 --> 01:14:35,480
Hmm.

1415
01:14:35,480 --> 01:14:38,920
Name three people who inspire you, living or dead.

1416
01:14:38,920 --> 01:14:39,920
Mel Robbins.

1417
01:14:39,920 --> 01:14:42,360
I was talking about her this morning.

1418
01:14:42,360 --> 01:14:46,360
Brene Brown and Obama.

1419
01:14:46,360 --> 01:14:47,360
George Obama.

1420
01:14:47,360 --> 01:14:48,360
Barack or Michelle?

1421
01:14:48,360 --> 01:14:49,360
Yeah, Barack.

1422
01:14:49,360 --> 01:14:50,360
Barack.

1423
01:14:50,360 --> 01:14:51,360
Barack.

1424
01:14:51,360 --> 01:14:52,360
Okay.

1425
01:14:52,360 --> 01:14:53,360
I mean both of them obviously but.

1426
01:14:53,360 --> 01:14:54,360
Yeah, yeah.

1427
01:14:54,360 --> 01:14:55,360
Great.

1428
01:14:55,360 --> 01:14:58,680
Now if you could meet your future self, what question would you ask?

1429
01:14:58,680 --> 01:14:59,680
Did you make it?

1430
01:14:59,680 --> 01:15:00,680
Laughter.

1431
01:15:00,680 --> 01:15:01,680
Yes.

1432
01:15:01,680 --> 01:15:02,680
Good.

1433
01:15:02,680 --> 01:15:03,680
All right.

1434
01:15:03,680 --> 01:15:07,720
Name one piece in your current playlist.

1435
01:15:07,720 --> 01:15:11,280
Oh, Mumford and Sons, Little Lion Man.

1436
01:15:11,280 --> 01:15:12,400
All right.

1437
01:15:12,400 --> 01:15:19,440
Next level, which is the top tier, level three, what do you believe is the key to a fulfilling

1438
01:15:19,440 --> 01:15:20,880
life?

1439
01:15:20,880 --> 01:15:23,640
Did you serve the people that you were supposed to serve?

1440
01:15:23,640 --> 01:15:25,080
Oh, wow.

1441
01:15:25,080 --> 01:15:26,080
That's beautiful.

1442
01:15:26,080 --> 01:15:27,080
Now last question.

1443
01:15:27,080 --> 01:15:28,080
Fill in the blank.

1444
01:15:28,080 --> 01:15:29,080
Music is blank.

1445
01:15:29,080 --> 01:15:30,080
Healing.

1446
01:15:30,080 --> 01:15:31,080
Hmm.

1447
01:15:31,080 --> 01:15:32,080
Wow.

1448
01:15:32,080 --> 01:15:36,200
I think that's like the first time I ever heard somebody says healing.

1449
01:15:36,200 --> 01:15:37,200
Oh, yeah.

1450
01:15:37,200 --> 01:15:39,560
Out of all the episodes I had.

1451
01:15:39,560 --> 01:15:40,560
Great.

1452
01:15:40,560 --> 01:15:41,560
So.

1453
01:15:41,560 --> 01:15:44,080
That concludes the episode of the Piano Pod.

1454
01:15:44,080 --> 01:15:45,080
Thank you, Michelle.

1455
01:15:45,080 --> 01:15:49,120
That was beautifully done and thank you for joining my show today and sharing your stories

1456
01:15:49,120 --> 01:15:51,020
and insights and expertise.

1457
01:15:51,020 --> 01:15:57,160
You can learn more about Michelle and her amazing work through her website at michellylimpianist.com

1458
01:15:57,160 --> 01:16:05,920
and her cool running business at the FearlessArtistMastermind.com and all the links are listed in the show notes

1459
01:16:05,920 --> 01:16:08,920
and thank you to my wonderful audience and fans for tuning in.

1460
01:16:08,920 --> 01:16:14,800
If you enjoyed today's episode, please rate and review it on your favorite podcast platform.

1461
01:16:14,800 --> 01:16:19,320
Remember to hit the thumbs up button and subscribe to my channel if you are watching this episode

1462
01:16:19,320 --> 01:16:20,320
on YouTube.

1463
01:16:20,320 --> 01:16:25,360
Follow the Piano Pod on social media to get the latest piano news via Facebook, Twitter,

1464
01:16:25,360 --> 01:16:27,080
Instagram and LinkedIn.

1465
01:16:27,080 --> 01:16:29,680
I will see you for the next episode of the Piano Pod.

1466
01:16:29,680 --> 01:16:30,680
Thank you, Michelle.

1467
01:16:30,680 --> 01:16:31,680
Bye, everyone.

1468
01:16:31,680 --> 01:16:43,480
Bye.