So tell me your love for Franz Liszt and Scriabin.
Well you know Franz Liszt is really my favorite.
Scriabin contributed a lot towards the development of harmony and he really came on like a really
unique he came up with a really unique harmonic system.
That being said, if I had to pick one I would pick Franz Liszt.
It really goes without saying just the sheer amount of works that you can explore and the
amount of different styles that all of those compositions encompass.
You can also look at his transcriptions.
I mean Liszt transcribed stuff from Bach Prelude and Fugue for organ to completely free fantasies
on Bach works to things that are like multi-stylistic like this Handel transcription, things based
on popular tunes, like a ridiculous amount of variety, really experimental works.
So with Franz Liszt you're just never going to run out of repertoire ideas.
I mean, let's say Howard recorded the complete list and that's what 110, 115 CDs.
Right.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You're not going to, it's safe to say you're never going to run out of material.
Absolutely.
Unless you're Superman.
Hello piano enthusiasts.
You're tuned into the PianoPod.
I'm your host, Yukimi Song.
We're diving into part two of our season four opener featuring the incredibly talented Dr.
Michael Kakoff.
If you missed our intriguing chat in part one where we delved into the mysteries of
Scriabin's Synesthesia and the life of an independent artist post prestigious training,
make sure to catch up on your go-to podcast platform.
A warm welcome to all our new listeners.
This podcast is your all access pass to the kept debating world of piano.
In each episode of the PianoPod, I interview a guest speaker who has been breaking exciting
new ground in the industry.
Please rate the show and review it on your favorite podcasting platform because every
rating review will help people find my show.
So my friends, here is part two of the PianoPod's season four, episode one with Dr. Michael
Kakoff.
Please enjoy the show.
You are listening to the PianoPod where we talk to the brightest minds in the industry
about how they are bringing the piano into the 21st century.
So how about Scriabin?
I know you recorded Etudes before.
Yes, I've done the 65, number three.
I did the sixth Sonata.
I worked on the complete Opus eight.
Scriabin is on my radar.
I will definitely release a Scriabin album at some point.
What grabs me the most in Scriabin's output is the late period compositions, the late
period stuff after Opus 61.
There's no question about it.
I would say it would be enough to say that all of them are worth learning.
Every single Opus from 61 up until 74 is last composition for piano, worth learning.
In your opinion, what makes them special and worth learning?
They're special because he came up on a harmonic system which is still based on acoustic principles.
If you look at the development, he actually didn't throw away the previous relationship,
like the acoustic relationships.
He's very aware of how the overtone series works, how the sounds are actually formed
based on the overtone series.
It doesn't go against that.
Even though you have things like the sixth Sonata, which I recorded, probably his most
dissonant composition, it's still, every single chord can be explained and just the meticulousness
of the writing and the way the material develops is extremely traditional.
My teacher, Jerome Lomenthal said that Scriabin's late music is as clear as a Mozart Sonata.
It's like even more clear in terms of composition than Mozart.
And he's right.
There's like nothing in there that's out of place, the level of craftsmanship.
Yes, of course, when you hear it, it sounds chaotic, but yeah.
Yeah it's true, yes.
You are our dedicated music educator, piano teacher, and you teach online mainly and we
can talk about the convenience of it and everything.
But tell me what it's like to teach at the Harlem School of the Arts.
Well, at the Harlem School of the Arts, I currently have one student who has been with
me for many, many years.
She started with me when she was three years old.
Oh my goodness.
It was really kind of, probably for a lot of people, they would say it's too early,
but we kind of stuck with it and we really worked hard with her.
And my sort of end goal would be to have her audition for a couple of maybe college prep
programs and things like that.
I have a couple of private students that auditioned for different kind of pre-college programs
and I have one person that's currently who got into the Manhattan School of Music pre-college.
It's very nice to also prepare for like really high stakes sort of professional goals.
A lot of people also want to take this as sort of like a fun class or not necessarily
to have some kind of end result, like an exam in mind.
So it's a spectrum.
I have some people online that are preparing for the RCM or the ABRSM.
Also very valuable.
I like that there's a standardized repertoire list and it kind of makes my life a little
bit easier because as you know, selecting repertoire is actually really, really important.
Of course.
To pick pieces that showcase what you can already do and how you can grow.
So that's that.
Everyone sort of comes to me with a different goal in mind.
I also teach a lot of like adult beginners, people that used to play piano as a kid and
are coming back to it again.
So it's a whole spectrum.
I've seen everything.
Great.
And then so you only have one student at Harlem School.
Currently.
Right.
And most of the students are through online.
Yes.
Wonderful.
Now let's talk about online learning.
So e-learning has become such a big thing, obviously after 2020, because that was the
only way for many of us to be connected with each other, but also only way of learning
as well.
So tell me your thoughts on that.
Pre-COVID, it was a huge like resistance that I felt from fellow educators and among students
as well.
But I was actually giving an online lesson even before COVID.
I had one or two students who lived in Upper West Side and I couldn't go to their home.
So the only way was through actually FaceTime before Zoom, because I didn't know, know that
existence of Zoom before COVID, honestly.
So tell me your thoughts on online lessons, e-learning.
Online lessons and their success a lot of the time is dependent on the weakest link.
The internet connection on both sides and the kind of basic equipment people are willing
to kind of invest in either some kind of keyboard with preferably 88 keys or an acoustic instrument.
So occasionally I make people go and purchase a microphone, like a standalone thing that's
going to kind of circumvent the Zoom compression, something like this.
If people can't afford it, I can take a financial hit on the first lesson and just buy this
thing for them just to ensure that the lessons aren't a waste of money and they can actually,
I can hear them and they can hear me.
Seems like a really basic thing, but it really isn't because it does take a little bit of
special equipment to make it feasible.
Otherwise they cannot really, if there's too much of a lag in the internet connection,
it's also not a good value.
You can't really teach.
Absolutely.
Yes.
Now it's online isn't ideal for complete beginners as well.
I have those, but it's less than ideal.
And I think people that go into it, they know it might not be the best thing, but it can
work with enough dedication.
It can work, but the best results online that I found were people that already had some
lessons prior and they kind of, they already have like a very clear, very clear goals.
Yeah.
And then how do you like teaching online?
I love the convenience of it.
I love working with people who are already come to me with a kind of a motivation, because
if you're, you're seeking these lessons out online, it's pretty clear that you're kind
of interested.
You're not passively signed up for some kind of program.
You're just going through the motions.
So it's very, very, very nice.
I've had people reach out because they're, they do have an in-person teacher, but they
want a second opinion as they prepare for an exam.
I've had college students reach out to me also that are enrolled in some program, but
they want like an extra, extra lesson or also like a second opinion, or just even to play
through some pieces and see what I say about it.
So it's pretty cool.
Yeah.
That's a great way to do that using online.
Makes sense.
Yes.
Yes, definitely.
So as an educator, what do you see in these students, especially the students in, I guess
in, of Gen Z, I wouldn't say Gen Alpha, because I don't think you're teaching really young
students, young, young students, but you know, Gen Z, I'm sure you have students in that
or maybe you are too.
You are Gen Z. Maybe I don't know.
Well born 1990.
What does that make me?
Uh, then millennial.
Yes.
You're still still well, pre-millennial.
Yeah.
But the era is called millennial.
Okay.
I'm a millennial.
Oh my God.
Yeah.
I'm having a substantial crisis right now.
No, no, no, no, no, no.
It's, it's, it's called Gen Y.
You're, you're in Gen Y.
So Gen Z is like, yeah.
Gen Z is the, you know, I think the age under 23 or something.
Okay.
Yeah.
So what do you see in students of that generation?
It varies.
Well, people are much better suited to using technology.
They're quite fast with it.
A lot of people already had to go through a lot of the schooling online just because
of the COVID thing.
I mean, they had to attend regular school online.
A lot of university students had to have online college lessons, even for their major.
We're talking about like the, all the big schools, even Juilliard, even people like
in the dance program there, they have like online dance classes just through Zoom.
So I feel like those students are already kind of well adapted to this.
It's definitely, it definitely needs like, you need a certain level of tech savviness
and working online requires greater concentration on the part of a student because you can't,
you can only communicate these ideas.
You can't like directly show it at, at the keyboard, you know, it's, it's more, it's
more advanced.
It's difficult.
Of course, you're not going to argue otherwise, but it allows for consistency of lessons.
It allows for flexibility in scheduling and it can, it can give you a decent result.
What kind of skills are required or demanded as musicians of young generation?
You're young as well.
So you know, that skills that you didn't necessarily learn from all the schooling you went through,
you know what I mean?
Yes, I wouldn't say it's a skill.
I think it's a mindset.
At some point you have to really think, how do I want to play this composition or you
know, what do I want to play and why am I picking it?
And you know, you know, something, even as I am playing this, this repertoire, there's
spots in the 19th and again, Rhapsody where I've always felt strongly when I listened
to recordings of it, that it might need like a cadenza or it might need like an embellishment
on the repeat.
And I went ahead and I composed a couple of inserts very carefully so they don't, they
don't sound intrusive, but I make tiny changes in the score.
These are things that are really not encouraged, not encouraged in school.
We're so glued to the score.
I mean, it's, I know some people would be horrified listening to a list Rhapsody and
then looking at the, at the Lippi passage and seeing that I added some things in there.
So ideally, ideally it has to be done very sparingly, very sparingly.
It has to sound organic.
It's a matter of taste, but at least I think when, when you get to the point where you
can play what you want and how you want, I think that's already a very, that's already
a win.
That's a win.
You can think about it for a minute.
Early training is based on restriction, what not to do.
And you also learn by imitation.
That's a very good thing up to a certain point when you're finally given a completely free
pass to do whatever you want, what are you going to do?
You know?
Yeah, that's true.
That's an interesting, when you get to that point, that's pretty interesting.
What are you going to pick?
How are you going to play it?
And why?
That's a very different perspective, right?
Yes.
And I've only been thinking about it recently.
That's a very important question to ask.
It is.
And you, you have to come to this.
I, for a certain period of time, I was collecting old recordings and listening to all the, all
the recorded output of like Rachman, Friedman, Gadovsky, Horowitz, everybody.
I have all the collections in my hard drive.
I hardly listen to the stuff anymore, but I'm kind of aware of what the pianists of
the past sounded like.
And it was just an era of extreme freedom, really strong individuality.
I mean, look at Alfred Courtauld, everyone, all different, all so different.
And that, is that something that you should?
Absolutely.
You should cultivate.
It goes without saying.
Otherwise, why are you recording it?
If you can't bring something new to it, and I don't mean something new in a completely
tacky contrived way.
Yeah.
But if you're not going to present something new or have your own ideas about it, why not
just put a recording of Rachmaninoff on?
Even something like the Rachmaninoff Third Concerto, which I haven't done.
I have a wonderful recording of Rachmaninoff himself playing it in 1939.
Give me a good reason to play that concerto again.
That's what you have to think about when you learn, when you learn a composition.
It may sound arrogant, but I'm not saying it's a competition between you and Rachmaninoff.
No, it's like what's there?
What do you have extra to say?
And why are you picking it?
Why do you think that you can present something that's unique enough when you select something?
Hey there, TPP family.
The Pianopod is now into our fourth season, and it's all thanks to you.
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as classical musicians.
Now let's continue with the show.
Because you are not only a concert pianist and recording artist, but also you're an
educator, so let's talk about the vision of the classical music industry.
So I want to, I'm curious to know your thought on how we can keep this classical music tradition
or even classical music itself relevant and then thriving in this fast-paced society.
It's still relevant.
The markets of it have changed, but it's as relevant as it always has been.
There's massive audiences online.
You have to just find a niche.
You have to find something that's unique to you.
And I think there will be an audience for that.
I saw a posting recently, and it was an artist, and he said that he basically doesn't want
to continue posting his stuff on YouTube because he feels it's unappreciated and he just wants
to take down the whole channel.
And I feel, what are you doing this for?
Are you setting out to build up, you know, 400,000 subscribers or are you getting your
work out there?
Because it's two very different goals.
So I would say you have to be patient.
You have to find the audience that's right for you, that loves specifically what you
do and what you select.
And it's a matter of just staying patient and creating more so-called content, but like
on your own terms.
If you go into this with the specific mindset of growth, you might have to go and study
marketing first or look at something else because it may not be immediately sort of
comparable.
Also one pretty interesting thing, all the major streaming platforms, they've peaked,
haven't they?
They've peaked.
The time to be on YouTube was right before YouTube was purchased by Google.
The time for that was like 15, 20 years ago, however long ago that was.
Right now the market is so oversaturated that you really have to be on the lookout for the
next kind of big platform.
I know, for example, when you post an Instagram reel, it gets more organic views than stuff
on YouTube or Facebook because Instagram is actively interested in promoting their kind
of new sort of newer platform with like more, you know, longer video.
So when the next sort of big thing comes out, you have to be ready for that.
For example, I've worked a little bit with this company, Muse Live, which I think they're
going to go, Dr. Lisa Yui, by the way, also played a couple of fun for them.
They have an app and it's going to go live somewhere around this year or maybe next year.
We'll see.
We'll see how they relate to it, but that's just a streaming platform where it's audio
only, but it's uncompressed audio so you can stream potentially in high quality.
Oh, wonderful.
Then what is your thought on our responsibility or duty or you may say gift as classical musicians
to society at large?
That's a very good question.
You know, I would say our duty in classical music isn't to cheapen the content so that
it's readily available for mass consumption.
I think that's an error.
If you think that you can get more views by doing a certain thing that your heart isn't
really in it and it's all just like marketing and you, I think you know what I mean, when
you're posting certain things that are there just for the views, I think people have to
sort of reconsider really what is classical music?
It's really come to the point where you might not want progress.
You just want to do it.
Let's do it well again.
I mean, if you look at the past, look at the past 100 years, look at the past 100 years
of the recording industry and of all the great artists of the past, I don't mean that to
discourage people.
Just on the contrary, but a lot of this has already been done.
Let's keep the level where it is.
Let's kind of match the level.
Let's not degrade it.
Let's not cheapen the art for mass consumption.
What I mean by that, even like platform limits, I know for certain Instagram clips, and I've
been guilty of that myself, but you can only post a tiny sound bite that is 30 seconds
long.
I don't know if that's the best medium for the art.
Is a Chopin Scherzo all about the coda, the last 30 seconds?
I don't know.
Is the Liszt sonata, you're just going to post the octaves, just the octaves, all the
climax section, that's all the people are going to hear?
I'm not so sure.
It's a question of media.
Also, what mindset are you when you're on social media and looking for so-called content
to watch, kind of scrolling by?
Are you going to listen to a Liszt masterwork when you can't completely focus on it, or
it's like a background music?
I don't think so.
So it's a question of kind of redefining what these platforms are for.
I don't mean that in a pessimistic way.
Right, right, right.
Totally, I understand that.
Why do you think it matters to each one of us at one point to explore and examine our
sense of purpose or mission as performing artists and music educators?
I think we have to think about that any time.
I think just with rigorous schooling, with staying in a more kind of confined thing where
you have a thousand things going on, your number one concern is when I graduate, am
I going to find a job?
Am I wrong?
That kind of weighs you down and it completely, it may crush some of your creative instincts.
Right?
Right.
Let's say your main goal from recording is to make a profit.
It's not going to happen.
If you look at what streaming pays and if you look at the various platforms, I mean,
it's not even close to minimum wage.
Of course, there's things like Bandcamp where you can sell a physical product or people
can donate and these things are actually changing already.
But in the case of the most popular one, like Apple Music and Spotify, it's safe to say
that the streaming income that you make from that will not cover your production costs.
These things have changed.
They've changed very rapidly.
We went from physical CDs being relatively profitable in the 90s when record labels were
actively looking to duplicate the catalogs previously available in LP.
There was a mad rush to get the stuff documented.
That's when companies like Phillips, Sony and others would actually pay a very decent
amount of money and royalties for that.
Right now, I don't know.
Right now, I think for the recording, it's going to go in a library somewhere.
It's going to go in one of those students.
I'm sure you know this with the Knox Sound Library where you can access pretty much anything
on demand for streaming.
So the purpose kind of changed, but I think it's still worthwhile.
You think?
Yes.
Life is hard.
Yeah.
Look, if you're number one, because I'm only saying this because people have asked me this.
They're saying, well, you're telling me there's never going to be any profits in this?
There may never be any profit.
The best that you can hope for, for some of this, if you're a freelancer and you produce
a project like that, is a nice tax write-off.
Get a good accountant.
Write off those thousands that you invest in your career.
It might be worth it.
Then something eventually will click in place because you're spending basically on, it's
an advertisement, isn't it?
You're also taking a so-called loss just to, artistry can't exist in a vacuum.
You need an audience.
You need a specific goal.
It's not like a treadmill where, oh, I'm just going to do this to get better, just for self-betterment.
It's no, that's not entirely.
You need an audience.
You need at least one person out there that you're going to communicate with as you play.
And then we reach somebody.
Just what takes one person.
Yes.
Right?
Yes.
And then when you make a recording, you're playing for the sound engineer in the booth.
Yes.
Well, thank you, Michael.
It's been a really great conversation.
I'm really enjoying this now.
Time is running up and we're toward the end of our wonderful conversation here, but I
just want to know a few more things.
So one is, what is your next step or next phase in your career?
What's your next goal?
Not that it doesn't have to be the specific.
We know the specifics like that your recording is coming up, your concert is coming up in
September.
Yes.
You asked a very good question.
I want to play more live and I want to start booking more venues and playing because recording
can only take you so far.
I want to just go live.
I want to do more streaming and more live concerts.
Yeah.
And it will happen.
I can't wait for really the concert to attend in September and more.
So yeah, that would be great.
Wonderful.
It's enjoyable.
Look, you cannot set concrete career goals because you never know how the industry is
going to change and what's going to click into place.
All you can do is be very alert and look at a variety of different options and see what
clicks into place.
Otherwise you're going to be deeply unhappy.
Very unhappy if your number one goal here is to secure a traditional management by a
certain number of years.
I don't know if that may ever happen.
I'm fine with that never happening for me.
I came to terms with that.
But in music school, everybody's sort of grinding the same thing.
They're either doing competition after competition, hoping to secure a traditional management,
which is going to last only a couple of years anyway, in most cases three or four years
if you win something and then they kind of grind these degrees and then you hope to secure
like a college position by a certain amount of time after which people have told me, you
know, if you don't secure a college professorship, like an X number of years after graduation,
you may not be hireable.
I'm fine with that.
Yeah, but you know, honestly, yeah, but it's not true though.
It's not true though.
And it's not entirely true.
You can't set like artificial deadlines for yourself like that.
And you can't you can't just start doing the same thing, you know, getting into a mode
where you're doing the same thing over and over and hoping something's going to finally
click into place.
That's a definition of insanity.
Yeah, but you know what?
Unknown makes us thrive.
Yeah, it's it's it's it's hard.
But the unknown makes us who we are as artists.
That's why our industry this performing arts industry is so interesting.
And you can really push so hard so far, right?
Because of the unknown that you're pursuing, right?
Yes.
Your only enemy is what's what's inside your mind, but the limitations that you create
for yourself, you think it can be done actually probably can just do it.
Yes, do it.
Just go for it right now.
Yeah.
Before we go, I want to promote.
So I know the concert is coming up with September 2nd, but this show comes up on the fifth.
So unfortunately, it won't be much of a promotion.
But for listeners, if you're listening and who are interested in learning more about
Michael, please go to Michael K.
Koff piano dot com.
And also he will have the next all this album coming out in sometime next year, early next
year, 2024.
So please on the lookout for his recording on any music streaming services, I guess.
Yes.
And band camp and others.
Yes.
OK, great.
Fantastic.
So Michael, again, this has been a great fun, inspirational conversation.
But before I let you go, we have one more thing to do.
It's called the piano pod rapid fire questions.
And this is part of the show where I get to ask fun questions to each guest.
Now here's a little twist.
As silly as these questions may sound, your answers may reveal who you truly are.
And then so I want you to answer each question with the shortest response as responses as
possible.
So and then you don't have to explain anything.
Just just do it.
All right.
Are you ready?
Yes.
Number one, what is your comfort food?
Pasta.
Yeah.
How do you like your coffee?
Espresso double shot with a little bit of steamed milk.
Cats or dogs?
Dogs, preferably basset hounds.
Sunrise or sunset?
Sunset.
Summer or winter?
Winter.
Good old paper book or e-book?
E-book.
OK.
What is your word of words to live by?
I don't think I have any.
It might be an obscene word.
It might be something obscene when you in a frustration, you say something like that.
But I'm a product of the of the 21st century, unfortunately.
It's OK.
So what is the most quality you look for in other people?
An openness and good intentions.
Just open to new things and not looking to beat anybody down because there's really kind
of two types of people.
I want you to name three people who inspire you, living or dead.
My mother, I would say also Franz Liszt.
And maybe for pianists, for pianists of the past, it's really, really hard to say.
Really hard to say.
Maybe somebody like Ignaz Friedman.
Oh, yes.
I love his interpretation of Chopin Nocturne.
Oh, that's a great one.
That's a great one.
B major, especially.
Oh, the E flat, the E flat, E flat major.
There's a B major piano roll that you're referring to, but there's also the acoustic recording
of the of the E flat.
Oh, yeah.
Yes.
Wow.
Yes.
Great.
Now, name one piece in your current playlist.
Probably a bunch of Art Tatum stuff, something like Art Tatum, Night and Day.
Oh, 1946.
I love that pianist, jazz pianist so much.
Oh, yes.
He's incredible.
All right.
So last but least, fill in the blank.
Music is blank.
Life music is life.
Wonderful.
Yay.
Ding, ding.
You won.
So this concludes this episode of the PianoPod.
Thank you, Michael, for joining you.
No, thank you.
It was great to be here.
Oh, wonderful.
And thank you for sharing your stories and insights and expertise.
You can learn more about Dr. Michael Kakoff and his amazing work through his website at
MichaelKakoffPiano.com and you can listen to his recordings on all major music streaming
services.
All the links are listed in the show notes.
Thank you to my wonderful audience and fans for tuning in.
If you enjoyed today's episode, please rate and review it on wherever you get your podcast.
Remember to hit the thumbs up button and subscribe to my YouTube channel if you are watching
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I will see you for the next episode of the PianoPod.
Bye everyone and bye Michael.
Thank you so much.
Thank you.
Appreciate it.
Thank you.