Welcome to artificially intelligent marketing,
a weekly podcast where we stay on top of the
latest trends, tips, and tools in the world of
marketing AI, helping you get the best results
from your marketing efforts. Now let's join our
hosts, Paul Avery and Martin Broadhurst. Here
we are again on Artificially Intelligent Marketing,
and we're a second episode back and already know
Martin Broadhurst, but that's all right because
today we've brought in an upgrade. We've got
my friend Harrison Wade from the life science
industry. Harrison, how are you doing? Good,
Paul. Great to be here. I'm so glad that you
guys started this podcast up again. I think it
was almost like two years ago or something. I
remember listening to like pretty much every
episode at the beginning and uh it was like oh
it just disappeared for a while and i know we
had chatted about you know why that was happening
but uh which is obviously exciting but yeah i'm
so glad it's back and obviously excited to be
here yeah i love it why don't you tell the um
the listeners a bit about yourself you know your
story to date what you're doing now yeah Yeah,
so actually, I fell into the life sciences later
in my career. So I think most people in this
industry started off probably in the lab and
then maybe moved into commercial, into marketing
later in their career. I actually started in
software sales at the beginning of my career,
selling to IT and then marketing, and then ultimately
fell into the life sciences at a company called
Synthego and joined relatively early to help
build out the inside sales team, a lot of the
systems processes, the sales training. implement
functions there. And one of the things that we
saw along the way was that a lot of reps were
coming in. These really skilled reps would come
in and say, wow, you guys have some of the best
tools, some of the best tech, some of the best
training that we've seen in the industry. I was
like, well, that's interesting. I didn't think
it was that cool. Because I think coming from
the software world, a lot of the stuff was normal.
It was very normalized. But I think even still
today in the life sciences, like there are many
companies that aren't even adopting technology
that was used 10 years ago and maybe even more
than that 15 years ago. And so, yeah, it was
kind of like this opportunity where I moved to
London. I was working with my co -founder, Nick,
who I met at Synthago. And we started Succession
together to really help bring a lot of this like.
you know go -to -market tech tools uh training
to the life science uh industry specifically
so that's a lot of what we do today uh right
now as we're talking we have a team of four and
we have worked with around 75 different life
science companies from everything from go to
market so like running outbound campaigns paid
ads content setting up different CRM systems
and automations and sales training that we do
as well. So far, I love it. It's amazing. And
yeah, that's a bit. And I think one of the things
we had talked about was when we started the agency,
it was relatively early in the sort of AI hype
cycle. And so I think Nick and I both realized
very early on that we needed to be AI first.
and ai forward so i know having your podcast
in the early days as well was very useful so
hearing you know you and martin's take on everything
was you know i would say a great way for me to
like understand all the different news and things
that was going on and then i could go and dig
deeper into it myself and then continue to to
figure out how best we could use ai in our agency
yeah i think one of the things i really loved
about some of our early conversations that you
know industry trade shows as an example is I
would say you're a bit more like Martin than
I am, which is that you two are very good at
like having a vision for seeing how a process
works now and being very good at iterating and
testing different ways of bringing AI into that
process. because you know every time i see you
you've done some other really cool thing where
i'm like i need to remember the details of this
so i can talk about it on the podcast so it's
much better to have you here to share the details
so before we get into some of the ai bit i'm
actually quite interested to know what from the
sort of sales enablement operations rev ops type
stuff what was the cool stuff that people were
coming in and going hey this is cool that clearly
most other people didn't have but you had So
I would say even in the early days, it was something
as simple as an email sequencing platform, something
like a sales loft and outreach at the time were
some of the main ones. And even today, we've
trained companies that don't even have a tool
to do that. And so there's still email sequencing
platform is like the way where you can create
a set of steps for a sequence. So like email
one goes. goes out email two follows a couple
days later email three follows after that right
like a way to sort of organize um your top of
funnel prospecting activity and we've talked
to a couple companies many companies today actually
that like don't even have these sorts of systems
in place um typically they're more like the mid
to large size um smaller companies i think are
trying to figure out how to adopt this stuff
quicker but it doesn't seem to be like the norm
so like that was something really simple early
on um I think another one was just how we sort
of built out our training that we would do as
well. So rather than having, say, a Google Doc
with a bunch of links in it to go watch different
trainings, or rather than just throwing somebody
into the wolves, like, hey, now you're out in
the field, go watch these people sell. We actually
have structured training where we brought in
different experts from the team, from across
different departments as well. talk about the
things that they were best at and train people
at the things that they're best at and then structured
it in like a formal like onboarding process that
took place over a couple of months rather than
like trying to fit it all within one week as
an example. So I think those are some things
off the top of my head. Yeah, that's really helpful
because I think one of the things I really love
to learn a bit more about today that I think
would be valuable to the audience, even if most
of our audience is working in marketing, I think
a lot of these principles are going to be translatable.
Where are you? now bringing AI into those, into
the way you work, or some interesting processes
and sort of tricks that you're using AI for.
It's funny you actually talk about like, do these
things apply to marketing? So I want to hit on
that first, because I was probably like, I don't
know, seven years ago, seven, eight years ago,
it was like very much like the outbound motion
should live in sales. Your SDR team should report
into sales. And I was like, I was a hard stop.
Should not report in marketing. That was my feeling
at the time as a salesperson. However, now, I
would say salespeople and sales leaders are typically
not great with tech and tools and automation
flows. It doesn't come naturally to a lot of
them. Whereas marketing... a lot of marketing
people are used to these things because they
go into HubSpot, they've got to build out a workflow,
email, nurture, whatever. They're more, I think,
tech forward. And so I think a lot of these AI
flows and these systems for not only inbound
follow -up, as an example, but also outbound
should probably live under marketing. And you
should probably figure out who is the person
who's AI first, loves the systems. bit of a nerd
when it comes to like, you know, more like engineering
type of stuff, and put them in charge of building
this stuff out. Because the possibilities are
crazy, like you could literally probably put
AI in any workflow that you could possibly imagine.
And so I'm happy to talk through some that we
come up with. But I think also, the way other
people should be thinking about this is, what
are the processes that you're doing today? that
are like a pain in the butt and then the first
step is okay let's go and plug in ai into certain
areas of it let's use automation tools in certain
areas of it to just like pick like two or three
of them and just like go use it and do it and
get something that works because i think what
a lot of people will do is they're like overwhelmed
with how much how the potential of how they could
use ai there's a bajillion different tools every
day there's a new one coming out like The only
reason I have X on my phone is because that is
where all of the AI news comes and everything
hits there first, right? So like, yeah, I'm like
a hype cycle guy. So like, I get all hyped up
around new stuff. So like, I see the new stuff
come and I'm like, gotta go check it out. But
I think for the average person, it's probably
not like great. And so pick a couple of workflows,
automate them, get an idea of how you can start
to leverage this stuff. And then like the second
phase is now how can you start to do things that
you couldn't previously do before? And I think
that's sort of the areas that you can start to
get into. I love that. So let's do a thought
experiment. We're going to do it. We're going
to do it live. We're going to pick a workflow
and we're going to be like, that's a pain in
the bum. Let's talk through where AI could help
in it. And then I think we'll get creative and
think about, well, what new capabilities can
we do in that area with an AI? So are there any
particular workflows that spring to mind where
you're like, okay, cool, here's an example. Yeah.
I mean, I think the perfect one is, I mean, the
obvious one is like sales prospecting, but the
way I think about this is probably a little bit
different than maybe others. And so when you
were, if you are a human SDR and you're going
to go prospect to somebody. you're probably going
to go do some amount of research on this person,
right? So you're going to probably go to their
company website. You'll probably go to their
LinkedIn profile. You may go try and find different
publications. If you have like a side of leads
account or something like that, like where are
you going to go to go find the research that
you're going to do? My guess is it's probably
in the range of 10 minutes of research that you're
going to do on this person. Then you're going
to think about how do I take that information
and then write a email or a LinkedIn message
or prepare yourself for a call, whatever it is,
to that person. So today, AI can basically reverse
engineer different automation tools, can reverse
engineer that 10 minutes of research upfront,
and then also draft that sort of context into
a message for you to where you are editing versus
doing all of that work yourself. So you can imagine
you got like a hundred prospects you want to
go after. You could have that list like ready
for you to review in the morning rather than
like having to spend whatever, a thousand minutes
going through research on each of them. But what
type of tools, like, is that, is that like a
chat bot that you say, here's a list of people
do the research and you get up in the morning
and then you've got an output on or an email
or, you know, how does that actually translate
into real world application? Yeah, and I think
this is also where a lot of people run into issues
with AI is they'll try and shove all of this
into a chat GPT where it's like, hey, here's
the person I'm trying to reach out to. Do the
research for me and write the message. And that
is always going to be terrible. And I think that's
where you get people that say, oh, it's so bad.
AI messaging is terrible. And it's like, yeah,
because you're using it terribly. If I think
about... There's probably three core things that
you have to have as just context for these models
to work effectively. And if you think of any
AI model, the context is the most important piece.
That's all of the information that you're providing
it upfront so that it can provide you with the
output that you want. And I'd say those three
things are information about your company and
your product services, what you do, what you
help solve, problems that you solve for people.
information about the person that you're reaching
out to right so that's going to be the company
information their publications like i don't know
different products they might use linkedin information
that sort of thing and then how you wanted to
write the message and i think people don't really
think about these three things in tandem as being
like a core part of like the context engine And
the third one I was talking about is how you
wanted to write the message is so important because
AI is not going to be good at writing the message.
So we have this 27 page document that we use
to basically as contacts, we made a custom GPT
with it to help us write the messages exactly
how we want with different sets of frameworks
and different ways that we might want to write
it because not everybody responds to the exact
same sets of messaging. So we need different
variations of messaging that we're going to use
in there. And again, that's just like one of
the three pieces of context that I'm requiring.
I love that. I'm glad that you mentioned like
26, it's 27 page briefing document, basically.
Like when you're saying you must give the models
context, five bullet points instead of one bullet
point is not what you're saying. You are saying
basically an almost. Like a more thorough brief
than you'd give a human, really, because, of
course, humans have real world experience to
draw upon. They might have written messages in
the past that work for them that they can lean
into. But actually, you're probably giving examples
that it can mimic and all this other stuff all
in this one document. Is that how that works?
Yeah, there's essentially rules that we have
of do's and don'ts. Then there are frameworks.
Then there are example messages. And then there's
also spam words to avoid. These are words that
are going to get caught up in spam. If you use
the word free in your message or you use the
word promotion, those are more likely to end
up in spam. all of these things sort of like
cobbled together in this document um you're sort
of like outline if you're not familiar with like
markdown format um like markdown is a way that
ai is really good at understanding how things
are structured and so if you can structure your
documents or your context in markdown format
um it's going to be better too it's going to
be easier for the ai to interpret understand
that content i'm glad you mentioned markdown
as well i got two bookmarks that get hammered
multiple times a day in my in my browser one
turns google doc into markdown and the other
one turns an entire web page into cleaned up
markdown um so that you can give ai tools structured
content that they can that they can understand
and it's these i think these are the little things
that you pick up over time that probably almost
seem not meaningful to share with other people
um but it's made a big difference for me yeah
Yeah, we think of them as second nature, right?
Because we've done it so much. So it's like,
we've toyed around with them and played with
them so much. And I think that's the other thing
that a lot of people get stuck on is they try
something doesn't look good, doesn't give them
the output that they want. And they don't spend
the time to really dig into these tools. Like,
I posted something the other day, which I'm sure
we can talk about here in a sec. But like, I
think a very underutilized skill is like the
technical prowess of understanding like APIs
and webhooks. like how data flows between different
systems because if you're able to do that it's
a lot easier to like connect disparate data sources
um and then also like pass data from one tool
to another where one ai tool might be really
good at one thing and another ai tool might be
good at another thing um yeah so i think there's
it's like an underrated skill there so are you
building some of those types of things and can
you give me an example i mean we i asked a minute
ago about you know, having 100 leads and then
coming back in the morning and having 100 prospecting
emails to just double check, which you can't
do with ChatGPT, right? It's a conversational
interface, not a here's a big job, come back
in a day with the results. But you could build
something like that if you were comfortable using
APIs and stuff. So are those the types of things
you've been playing with? Yeah, I mean, our command
center, if you will, is this tool called Clay.
um where if you're in sales on linkedin you've
probably at some point seen somebody post a clay
table or talk about clay they've like gotten
an insane valuation um over the last couple of
months and years but essentially it's like a
smart spreadsheet not to be confused with smart
sheets but it's a smart spreadsheet where each
row is like a record so it can either be a company
or an individual person And then each column
is a different data point or enrichment or where
you can make a different API call. So as an example,
let's add a LinkedIn profile for somebody I wanted
to target. Well, I could use Clay to enrich that
LinkedIn profile. Now I have all the information
in Clay in this one place about them and their
LinkedIn profile. I could then pull out, say,
the company that they work at, then go and get
the domain for that company, go to the company
website, scrape the company website, understand
what's going on, maybe go visit their pipeline
page, what therapeutic areas are they going after,
what targets are they going after. Those then
get extrapolated into new fields within Clay.
Then I could leverage different AI models to
then interpret all of this information that we
gathered about this person to come up with unique
insights i could then feed it information about
my company and you can sort of like build out
this whole table where then at the end you have
this like you know message that gets generated
using all of this context from these different
fields and then like whatever you could send
that message to your graphs in gmail or you could
send it straight into your email sequence or
you could have it um like get pushed to a google
doc that you could review there's all sorts of
like cool ways that you could do this stuff um
and each of these other things along the way
could also be a tool so like i know you're a
big fan of heijin so heijin has an api so if
you wanted to write a custom video message to
somebody as an example using ai like heijin could
be a you know one of these columns that you could
enrich with a script to how you would send a
message to that person and so By understanding
how these tools talk to each other, you can do
some really cool stuff. Yeah, that's awesome.
So just to play that back, all these information
sources being pulled into this sheet, it's interpreting
them and then writing, say, a prospecting email.
But like you say, you could even push that as
a script. You could then write a script that
then gets pushed to HeyGen, and then you've got
a video embedded in your email as well. And if
you want to write a different type of LinkedIn
message, so you could have an example of, here's
how we write emails. Here's how we write LinkedIn
messages. Here's how we create video scripts.
That could all be in one row. And then the output
is now you've got three distinct messages across
three different channels for that one individual.
I love that. And I think that is a critical point
because as these systems get easier to use, you
know most people are going to be able to figure
out a way of doing this as scale but probably
averagely because they probably can't put that
much time into the rules and the prompts whereas
if you really want to be able to stand out it's
the it's the 27 page context that drives the
production of your script that makes it a world
-class script that is the thing that really hits
home with the audience not the fact that you
can automate it as scale right Yeah, everybody's
going to be able to do this stuff. They can already
today, right? And I think if you get emails from
people and you're like, this is clearly AI, that
is, again, I think your point is that is the
average, right? What you need to do is play with
it so much and understand how these models work
to such like a deep understanding of them where
you can figure out how to force them to make
it look human, right? It doesn't have those AI
tendencies, right? So if you do this enough times,
you can start to read all these AI tendencies.
You see all these AI tendencies, and then you
update your document, which is like, don't do
this. Don't do that. Don't put an em dash, right?
Don't say like, don't use this. Like, what is
the cadence that it uses all the time? It loves
to say, it's not just this. Yeah. Like that type
of stuff. It's like, go human rights that way.
Right. Or if it is, it's very few. And so you
have to like. play with it and tweak it and constantly
be updating this stuff. And I think people want
AI to be the easy button, but it's not the easy
button. It still requires a lot of work to constantly
be iterating and improving it over time. Yeah,
we used to call it, going back several years
ago when Martin and I were doing training and
consulting around this stuff, we used to call
it the alien intern. And I think for all of the
improvements, I still think it's an alien intern.
It needs... context and guidance that the problem
is you see things thrown around like gpt5 is
at phd level and that has a bunch of connotations
associated with it rightly or wrongly that it's
going to have a certain intelligence or level
of capabilities um it doesn't have 15 years of
sales prospecting experience it doesn't have
15 years of marketing experience in the real
world seeing what works and what doesn't what
it does have though is it has the average of
all of this stuff right which is i think where
you get the average of the result so it's like
it's got phd level experience meaning like it
can answer really complex problems and questions
but then everything else is trained on is the
average so it's like it's been trained on millions
probably of average emails not like the best
emails or it's been trained on millions of like
marketing campaigns that are like the average
marketing campaign and so like to your point
how do you get how do you be excellent it's like
it still has that human component how do you
how do you use the human creativity to like then
leverage ai with that like you still need the
human creativity element yeah it's going to be
like a normal distribution curve probably right
it's like it's probably got access to loads of
blog posts about how to write the best emails
um but by definition you know the very best emails
are the small amount of data in that population
right at the far end of that normal distribution
And when it's trying to work out the patterns,
it's going to drift into the middle. And that's
what's going to give you middling results. We
touched on this in a few ways there, but I'd
love to get your take on the importance of humans
and creativity. And what constitutes the misuse
of AI in sales prospecting and sales process?
Copy and pasting and sending is the misuse, right?
It's like I go, I get the result. I'm going to
copy it. I'm going to paste it and I hit send,
or I just assume that it's correct. AI still
does hallucinate no matter how much content and
information that you give it. So you'd still
have to double check these things. And so I think
that is probably the biggest misuse. That's probably
across the board too. It's like I've seen. stuff
is just like factually inaccurate um that's like
posted online and blog posts and stuff like well
i don't know where you got that from that's not
real um and so i think there's still like one
the human in the loop to verify a lot of things
but then also like it is not that creative right
it's trained on stuff that's already occurred
so it's not going to come up with new novel concepts
very well maybe that'll change in the future
but i think today it's just not really there
and so you still need the human creativity which
I think comes from really understanding your
customer and what your customer wants and needs
and how your customer thinks, and then figuring
out how you can provide novel, interesting content,
insights, value to them. And then you basically
force AI to your will, if you will, right? Which
is like, how do I force it to get the outputs
that I want that achieve that outcome versus
going to it and like, give me five ideas on a
blog post idea, you know? Yeah, in a slightly
tangential way, I've been watching some of the
Sora 2 examples that have been coming out. One
of my favorites is, it's like a cops style sort
of road chase with Super Mario. And they try
to pull him over. And it's Super Mario from Mario
Kart. And if you haven't seen it, you should
Google it. It's absolutely brilliant. Why do
I like that? If AI had come up with that idea
and then executed it. it would mean far less
to me than me thinking, who is the genius who
thought, you know what would be cool? I'll ask
Sora to bring this idea to life for me. That's
the interesting part to me. I don't want to go
and watch a load of AI videos by AI, even if
AI gets quite creative, because it's like the
respect that I have for the creativity of the
person who leveraged the tool that makes me like
it, not just AI on. on steroids doing everything
on its own and to your point i think when you
get an email from a from a from an sdr or whoever
that's been well thought out well researched
if it tries to be clever or funny really feels
genuinely human in it then you can empathize
with it if you think the ai just came up with
the jokes this doesn't hits the same right yeah
jokes suck they're really bad it's very rare
that you find a good one absolutely i think to
your point like uh along the lines of the mario
video uh utah i think you guys talked about this
in your last episode which is the the yeti um
like there was i can't remember the brand now
which is strange but i remember the commercial
they made like dozens of these different commercials
with this like giant yeti you know snow abominable
snowmen thing and uh like it was very clearly
ai but it was so creative and interesting it's
like him skydiving out of a plane and like holding
up like the product or whatever right like there's
some there's really cool like brand stuff that
they were able to do which was clearly ai but
it was creative and so then it was able to go
viral so you kind of have this concept like this
we're probably at this interesting inflection
point where you could really get creative with
like how your team is using ai to capture attention
And as you probably know, in the life sciences,
like the general marketing is quite bland a lot
of the time. Right. A lot of people aren't willing
to push the needle on the creative side and be
risky. What a massive opportunity. Plus, I also
think there is appetite for people who want to
see something interesting, even from life science
brands. I think one of the common pushbacks you'll
always get is, you know, scientists are not.
looking for us to entertain them they want the
most robust reliable reagents and instruments
and tools so that they can trust their research
and it's like why can't it be both why is it
why does it have to be one right yeah they still
scroll tiktok and instagram and whatever they
laugh at beams like same thing for executives
like people think you have to be so stuffy when
you're reaching out to executives again they
are people they laugh at jokes like they have
senses of humor I don't think that everything
has to be stuffy, perfectly rehearsed and pass
through 17 rounds of legal review before it's
able to see the light of day. There's always
going to be businesses that have to do that.
And there are always going to be businesses that,
for whatever reason, absolutely feel they need
to err on the side of caution. But if you're
in a small or mid -sized business and you don't
necessarily have those constraints, this has
to be a competitive advantage that you at least
look into, right? Because we're so deluged with
content and that's going to get worse and worse
and worse with AI. You have to break the pattern.
And one way to do that is to connect with people
emotionally or to make them laugh, right? And
so ultimately, as much as the feature benefit
set of your latest microscope is probably really
interesting for the research applications it
opens up and enables, that's not pattern matching
in amongst all this other stuff, right? yeah
it's like if you're to your point if you're going
up against the you know big companies the thermos
whoever the world like and you know that they
have to have their like you know primmed and
proper messaging that goes out and their specific
ad copy that they have to use do something different
right if you just go with the same thing using
your color scheme like it's not going to stand
out for sure um so just coming back quickly then
to the misuse of ai because we talked about hygiene
earlier and synthetic rep videos um you know
a video that looks like harrison speaks like
harrison is not harrison how do you feel about
the use of the current set of video capabilities
and then where do you think this is going to
go in the future interesting i think that it's
generally pretty good i think that unless somebody
knows you it's hard to pick up some of the nuances
like you will watch the video and be like that's
not me like i don't talk like that that's not
quite who i am but if you're sending it to somebody
who has no idea who you are they don't know like
your nuances or how your inflection in your voice
um shows up and and it's only going to get better
at that too but then The other thing I think
you can lean into is just clearly saying, this
is AI. I made this specifically with AI for you.
Let me know what you think. People like something
novel or something interesting. Just lean into
it and add another piece of flavor when you're
sending it in the text that calls out that it's
AI or something. But then add something personal
yourself in that text or something. There's a
way that you can do this that stands out. And
like you call it, like if you're like in a feed,
right? It's like, I'll stop the scroll. It's
like, I'm scrolling and it stops the scroll.
Same thing. If I get an email and it's like,
looks different. I'm going to like click on it
and see what's up. Same thing on LinkedIn. If
I'm in my messages and it looks different, I
might click on it and see what it's about. So
I think if you can find novel ways to do that,
it's just going to improve your chances. Yeah.
I think it creates quite an interesting arms
race. I remember the first time I got a. like
a wistier video that was just for me. And I watched
it and I engaged with that company. They had
a fairly interesting value. They've done the
research on Biostrata. And I thought, actually,
yeah, this person's put the effort in here. I'm
going to engage in that. But it doesn't take
very long for that to be overused and then you
ignore that, right? One of the things I've toyed
with, but I think I never did it because it just
felt too risky, was like using Suno and creating
a song about the person that I'm targeting and
their brand and how we could work together for
an amazing future. having it like a quite a funny
like upbeat country or something like that um
but then but why not but why not why wouldn't
you do it i'm just curious why wouldn't i do
it i don't know i didn't do a huge amount of
prospecting anyway very lucky i had a lot of
inbound traffic um and it was just about risk
management for me it's like risk reward i didn't
really need i mostly thought it was a cool idea
rather than like a deep need in me like we need
the business i've got to i've got to break through
the noise this is how i'm going to do it challenge
a little bit like what's the downside they respond
to be like wow this song sucks like they're probably
not gonna i mean not gonna hold it against you
as a company probably right and i think if you
own it like hey you know we'd love to work together
and i made this like really fun little ai song
for you you might hate it but let me know what
you think like that kind of message is uh I think
no downside in that. And if the person honestly
doesn't respond super negatively to it, then
they suck as a person and you probably don't
want to work with them anyway. Now I want you
to go test this theory for me and then maybe
it works really well and then it gets saturated
and then you and no one else can do it anymore.
And that's where the arms race comes in, I think.
Yeah, but I would challenge that too and say
like... Video messaging has been around for so
long and nobody gets them. Nobody uses it. It
is still like Greenfield, Blue Ocean. Nobody
does it. And it's like one of the best ways that
you can be personable to somebody. I think that
you and I... live in a bubble of like we see
this stuff and we're like probably people are
going to do this and so if they do it if we do
it then everybody's going to do it but nobody
does it i don't think people catch on to this
stuff i think that um it's very rare that if
you come up with something kind of really interesting
and novel to your point of sending like a song
that's custom made for somebody i don't think
very many people will do it and even if 10 people
do it or 20 people do it It's not going to oversaturate,
you know. I guess you're right. Why do you think
that video and these other things that to you
and I seem like they must be saturated by now,
why are people not doing it? It takes work. You
think that's when it comes down to it? That's
the answer. Yeah, most people are lazy. I think
that's the answer. Most people are lazy and they
just won't put in the effort to actually do it.
So I think it's really easy. It's really easy
to have AI write text and load up an email and
send it. It's a lot harder to connect with somebody
on LinkedIn and then click this button that makes
you feel very vulnerable that pops a screen up
in front of you where you now have to like create
a video and then send it to that person. So we
can, in theory, we're going to get to test your
hypothesis because if all of these tools made
this almost click button easy, right? Like here's
a prospect research, basically your whole clay
work for you mentioned. but also right through
to recording a video and in like an ai video
and sending it um that should be click of the
button and then we'll see if people will actually
engage and do it again i don't know people are
going to take the time to do it but yeah if they
do great and if you do this send us like send
us the results i'd love to see it but i just
i still don't think enough people are going to
spend the time to learn how to set this up in
clay learn how to connect to different systems
and so if you are one of those people you have
a very distinct advantage and this is why i keep
talking about on a regular basis is like this
is an opportunity to completely revamp your skill
set that has probably never happened in my lifetime
other than maybe like the start of the internet
right it's like like this hasn't really happened
and so Yeah, I think it's a really interesting
opportunity for people to rebuild their skillset,
to really stand out. And then you can leverage
that to get like pretty much any job you want
if you become really good at it. So here we go
then. Obviously, like everyone, Harris and I
get a lot of LinkedIn messages and a lot of emails
of people trying to sell us stuff. We will reply
to you if you send us a song about us. I'm in.
Dude, I would love that. Honestly, one way that
people could do it, I'll tell you, here's the
playbook. Go take this. This will get posted,
I think, on YouTube, right? Yeah. Yeah, this
will get on YouTube. So go and get the transcript
for this video from YouTube. Then take that transcript,
put it into any of these. What is it? Suno, I
think, is the one, right? yeah you know how to
write a have a write a script have it write a
song or put it in chat you have to write the
song then upload that into suno then in suno
have it create the song and then send us the
song about this podcast that would be that that's
the that's the challenge for people yeah that
would be cool all right i expect to see that
now And if Suno has an API, again, you could
do this in Clay for all of your prospects. In
Clay, you'd just basically be able to create
these custom songs. I actually kind of do this,
so I might start sending some songs to people.
I want to know how well that works, especially
because maybe the arms race is not as real as
I thought it was, and we don't have to stay ahead
of people's attention and BS filters quite at
the level I'd imagined. Another thing I was thinking
when I was talking about clay, maybe we have
to go and do this from Rafael Harrison, it can
be our weekend project, is whether or not you
could like vibe code something up that would
achieve this type of outcome, right? Well, okay,
wait, where are you going with this? Vibe coding
the front end of like our idea here or vibe coding
something from clay? I've meant the entire front
and back end. where it probably uses like an
air table database or whatever but can you vibe
code and plug straight into clay because then
it would be even easier right two okay well i'll
take this in two ways because i've seen something
really cool i've never done it because it doesn't
really apply to me i don't think or i couldn't
figure out how to apply it as of yet This guy,
if you're familiar with Lovable, it is one of
these vibe coding platforms where basically you
can program in natural language. You type in
what you wanted to create, it will go create
that application for you. So he used the Lovable
API, used it in clay. So he took a company and
then basically created a prop, like basically
understood what is it that this company or a
tool that would be really useful for this company.
That created whatever, like the idea for the
tool. Then that tool creates like, okay, there'll
be a prompt for how I could build this tool that
could be used in a vibe coding platform that
generated the prompt. Then the prompt was sent
to lovable to go and build it. And then it returned
the deployed URL of that app. So literally. you
can make custom apps for prospects. So like,
if you're like a software development company
or something, like imagine how, and I wanted
to prospect into like 50 companies, I get a list
of these 50 companies. I can go and just like
create 50 MVPs of tools that are useful for them.
And like, you're probably not going to send it
right away from there. Like you go in and use
it. And I just add a couple like tweaks here
or there. And I've got something that I can send
as like a really cool lead magnet for them. That's
a cool idea. I think that's why people who really
think creatively and come up with these things,
they don't think, because the other thing is
like, you could build that and maybe it breaks
a lot, but in a year it won't. And this is how
you have to think about AI, right? If you're
constantly pushing at the capabilities of what
these different tools, Lovable, Chachi, BT, Sora
can do, but it's a bit clunky and broken, doesn't
quite give you the output that you want. You
have just built something that you'll be able
to deploy in six months instead when you can
swap the latest models in. Yeah, like if you
had built on the original HeyGen, probably wouldn't
have been very good to send to people. But now
it's pretty darn good and now it integrates with
SOAR too. So like you could leverage it for that
even. So yeah, wild. Yeah, that would be cool.
The other thing that you talked about was actually
vibe coding in application. So the way that,
so the short answer is yes. I am not an engineer
at all. However, I have built probably like,
I don't know, maybe like 10 different applications
now for stuff that we use internally. So like
there are certain processes that I think are
better used where I could build a mini app and
vibe code it using a replet. And then we use
it internally for like certain automations and
systems and processes for our team internally.
But then also I built a few customer -facing
ones. So we've got this insights tool where you
plug in your company domain, and it'll generate
this full report of your differentiators, your
positioning. We'll pull a list of companies that
you should target. We'll pull a list of people
and their email addresses that you could go after.
We'll write some prospecting messaging that you
could take and start to tweak. We'll pull together
discovery questions that you could start to ask
in your sales calls. And it does all of this
from simply your domain. Right. That's kind of
like the lead magnet we built. Built somewhere
around finding emails for people, built a quota
calculator. So if you want to understand what
you have to do to hit your quota, you just plug
in a couple metrics into the calculator. It builds
it for you. But it's like a really cool front
-end UI app that I built in 45 minutes in Replit.
So when you think about this from a marketing
perspective... like what are the things that
would make your prospect or your customers lives
easier what are tools things that they could
leverage build them and then give it to them
and like that is going to be a much better lead
magnet than the latest white paper or you know
poster or whatever that every other company is
doing i love that and i think the other thing
that you could probably do once you start really
expanding this out is because if you can automate
this process in clay And you can start to do
this at scale and see what tools resonate and
what don't. Like you could send 10 very similar
companies 10 different tools. Because you can
just automate it. It still takes a day and you
don't do most of the work. And see which tools
resonate. I read a really interesting use case
that I don't think we can do in our industry.
Maybe we could actually. But the concept was
spin up business ideas through JetGPT. or some
other model then create ads for those business
ideas and promote them on facebook meta for and
just spend like ten dollars per idea and see
which ones get the most engagement and that's
what then guides you in terms of what products
you should develop but like your market research
becomes not asking what people want but actually
just advertising to them like this thing exists
and if they try and buy it yeah and then if they
try buy it then you build it And of course, I
think if you're doing that with software, well,
the build capabilities are now very flexible,
very fast. So you could probably spin up the
software product in quite, you know, not much
time, really. And non -technical people can do
it, right? I think if you're a marketer, you
should learn how to use these tools because then
you don't need an engineer to do this stuff for
you anymore. Yeah, a friend of mine... You can
do it. In fact, you know this because Nick went
on this. We went on Hack Week. Oh, yeah, yeah,
yeah. I saw your post about it, and I'm like,
Nick, go do this. Yeah, yeah. It was really cool,
and I got a huge amount of value out of it. But
a couple of months later, the single most valuable
thing was carving some time out to get creative
and play with. I was using Replit as well, but
now I'm more using Lovable, but they're basically
the same thing, aren't they, pretty much? Anyway,
I say that, but I think it's probably still true
at this point. To just play with stuff and try
and build stuff for me. It's almost like for
the right organizations with the right people,
maybe you don't have to do this across your whole
team. Maybe you have to figure out those people
you mentioned earlier, Harrison, who are a bit
nerdier, quite like the idea of playing with
this stuff. It's trying to apply some sort of
Google 20 % time. Like one day a week, you look
at some of the work that you're doing and you
try and think about what front end applications
you could build using Lovable or whatever to
help. um you do your you and your team do your
work better or even more speculatively what cool
stuff could we do now you've got this you'd use
that one day a week to go and figure out what
that cool stuff could be yes i think every company
should do this i'll give you two examples of
companies that have done this there is uh if
you know monday .com monday yeah like there's
like a project management tool. They had a complete
whole week. So where some companies might do
an offsite for like a training or something,
they did a whole week, flew everybody in the
same place. And they did basically an AI hackathon
where everybody figured out and built like real
AI tools that they could use in their day -to
-day jobs. and like i think it does so many it
does so many things one it just gets everybody
talking about this stuff thinking about it using
it and then um also like you have if you if you
spend the time to do this they probably came
out with like 10 to 20 different ai tools that
are now going to make their like make them more
efficient or more effective in their jobs and
it's like i don't know how This was just never
possible before. And so if you're not thinking
in this way, it's just so hard for me to think
about not thinking in this way, I guess, right?
It's like, we do this stuff all day, every day.
Luckily, we're a small team, we're able to do
that kind of stuff. But yeah, just so much value
that you can unlock. Yeah, I mean, there's a
speculative element to it, right? It's one of
the frustrating things about the current tools,
although again, they're getting better all the
time, is they break a lot like something that
not every output i get is a 45 minute you know
idea to execution everything works and one of
the things i found really frustrating during
the hat week was i think of a new feature so
i'd ask replit to add the new feature to the
platform i'd already built and it would break
three of the old features because it's almost
like it would forget that those features existed
or duplicate a database that already existed
once and now Which version of the database is
being updated only fuels one feature and not
the other. So, you know, I don't want to give
the impression that you can go ask it to build
you a tool, the tool will be perfect. It's exactly
the same as using AI in any other context. You're
going to have to have a conversation. Something
that you think is going to take 10 minutes is
probably going to take three hours and be quite
frustrating along the way. But if you stick at
it, you will get something really cool that you
never could have done otherwise. So you need
that mindset. And I think sometimes... Yeah,
you need that patience and you need, I think
you need to have genuine interest in trying to
build something cool. You probably need to be
a bit of a builder, really. Otherwise, you're
probably not going to stick in it. But I can
see as a business as well that you might be like,
so I need to send someone off one day a week.
They're going to play with this stuff, but there
might not be any outputs because maybe it doesn't
work. And not all businesses are going to be
open to that. Not all businesses are going to
have the flex in their business model to do it.
But I think if you can, you should, right? yeah
I definitely agree um the other company I was
referencing that does this um they have a Friday
afternoon where the team five codes so it's sort
of like this optional vibe coding session on
Friday afternoons so it's like it's a Friday
afternoon half the people are probably like not
working at your company anyway and depending
on how big the company is so like Give them something
fun to do and have some outputs from it or something.
I also just think it's very short -sighted to
probably not be thinking about how your team
or company could leverage AI more effectively.
So while there's probably companies out there
that will say not to use AI in these types of
ways, I personally think it's short -sighted.
Yeah, I agree. I mean, I think the other thing
is it's very easy to say we're going to bring
AI into how we work, you know, as a senior leader,
maybe a CEO in the executive team, maybe the
board are like, what are you doing with AI? And
you're like, we're going to do some stuff. But
it's like all bets. Like, it's a bet. You have
to invest in it. Some stuff's not going to work.
You have to be patient. you can't throw it out
like after like two weeks of trying it because
you didn't quite get what you needed you have
to figure out what's not working and improve
it and all that stuff and i don't think you can
try and tie a metric to this and i think that's
the thing that people don't like a lot of execs
or a lot of leadership don't understand it's
like you can do things that don't always have
an roi and a metric tied to them like i i This
is one of the things I love most about what I'm
doing now, kind of my own company, is that I
don't have to, if I think an idea is cool, I'm
just going to do it. I don't have to think about
what's the ROI for this? What's the metric? What
is the whatever? I'm going to go do it, see if
it works. And if it works, awesome. And I'll
use qualitative feedback just to sometimes determine
if it works, right? And so I think there's oftentimes...
when organizations get larger and everything
has to be metric driven and everything has to
have a metric and a number tied to it it makes
it really hard to do fun interesting things what's
that saying it's not everything that counts can
be measured or something everything that measured
will get done or something like that but then
like but then there's like the flip side which
is kind of closer i think for what you're saying
which is like if you can't measure it yeah i
don't know what the actual one is but yeah but
obviously like the sentiment is Just because
you can't set clear measurables around it doesn't
mean it's not important. And I think one of those
things that happens, there's a couple of things
that are interesting. What you learn along the
way is intangibly valuable, but still can be
very valuable. Plus, I think the nature of this
is quite iterative. And what you get at the end
might not be what you envisaged at the beginning,
but it's actually 10x better than what you envisaged.
Because by going through the process, you come
up against a problem and you have a new idea.
So you try a new thing. So it's one of those
very few places where the old adage, start with
the end in mind, probably doesn't help you out
that much because you're trying to be creative
and solve problems in a creative way. And I think
as long as you have an idea directionally of
where you're trying to go, I really wish we could
make our content production process better. Then,
well, what does that mean? Then you can start
exploring it and trying different stuff. And
maybe that's the best way to think about it.
Yeah, I love that. It's like if you don't play
with it, you can't figure it out. This is it.
Right, so a couple of other questions. Have a
look at what we've got on here on our little
list. You've talked a bit about clay. Are there
any other tools that you rely on day in, day
out when using AI? Well, I think clay is more
of like the orchestrator of a lot of these things.
So obviously, like Claude. ChatGPT are core elements
as well. There are Canva, if we're thinking about
designing things, Canva is really cool for stuff
like that. From a messaging perspective, there's
a really cool company out there called Octave,
which is where you can create these hubs around
messaging and create these different messaging
agents, which is really cool. Airtable is doing
some cool stuff. Actually, a lot of these project
management tools are doing some really cool stuff
with AI. HubSpot's put some really cool stuff
out with AI. Other tools, I mean, like HeyGen
obviously is cool. Cursor, that's probably too
advanced for a lot of people here, but like Cursor
is a really cool way where you can, it's like
the advanced version of Replit or Lovable, where
it's a little bit more engineering heavy, but
you can do some really awesome stuff with it.
Yeah, and then the Replits, the Lovables, live
voting apps. And I'm sure I'm missing something.
There are loads of different stuff. Oh, Super
Whisper. Everybody needs to get Super Whisper.
It's a tool you use to transcribe, but it's a
different one. So it's like voice to text. It's
incredible. I use it all the time. I don't write
prompts to AI anymore. I brain dump speaking
to it. And it goes so much faster. And it's way
more effective than trying to type everything.
And yeah, it's a really good. uh voice to text
tool yeah typing is where you we've talked about
this before typing's been dead for a long time
to me and um i've even got a local large language
model on my phone now where my keyboard has a
built -in transcription model but it's on device
so i you know because a lot of things you might
speak type on your keyboard you don't want it
to come off your phone right um but that's pretty
fast considering it's running on You know, Samsung,
it's 23 or something. Um, the other thing is
faster. It'd be on an iPhone. Probably slower
these days. AI is not Apple's strong suit so
far. We'll see if they improve over time. That's
very true. I'm recording this on a Mac, so I'll
just navigate to where the best platform is for
the thing I'm trying to do at the time. There
you go. The thing I really love, I think this
might be boring for podcast listeners because
I might have said this last week, but I'm using
a tool called VoiceSync at the moment, and you
can choose what model you use, and I'm using
NVIDIA's new... like super fine -tuned tiny voice
model and if even if i speak a paragraph it appears
instantly but cool um and that that i really
didn't think that latency was going to be that
important to me but it really is like if i use
a better model and i have to wait a second or
two to get it appear on the screen i'd rather
have instant transcription and fix one or two
words Because they can move that much faster.
It's really unbelievable. Yeah, that's really
cool. I like it. Tell me, Harrison, about an
AI workflow or tool or something that you thought
would be really cool and work really well. And
then it just didn't. And what did you learn?
I tried to create a like super app myself. So
I tried to build, I mean, this is still in progress.
It still could come out one day. um where essentially
it would be like the only app that we would need
to run our whole agency so everything that we
would do and so i was trying to find the whole
thing building all of these different complex
workflows working with databases and um it proved
to be very hard as a non -technical person to
work through like the slog of bugs and different
challenges that would come up and so what i have
like now deferred to is like simple small apps
that solve very specific problems and then can
make it in an hour or two, and then it's live.
People can use it. And it's a lot easier than
trying to build some gigantic piece of software
that I don't have the technical expertise to
update and maintain on a regular basis and just
get it constantly working. So when you think
about, this is kind of where I come back to this
idea for people trying to get started with AI.
is come up with something small simple easy with
like defined outcomes that you can build and
use right away and that will be like a nice win
and like think about those things before you
try and build something complex yeah that's that's
a great story i've experienced that as well i
got a couple of questions for you on that the
first thing i just wanted to say though was and
it's going to contradict what we said earlier
so hopefully it still makes sense but because
when i'm working with lovable or replit If I
have an idea and add another feature, it breaks
an old feature. One of the things I learned is
sometimes it's just better to start again with
a longer prompt that clearly outlines all the
features you want the final product to have so
that it builds them all in one go. Because what
it's been like for me is if it's like dumps of
like ice cream one on top of the other, like
the whole thing is really flimsy and melts really
easily. Yeah, yeah. Like I need to decide what
that. everything is give it to the tool in one
go and get a thing out but my question for you
is have you had any experience like chaining
your micro tools like can one tool use another
tool or does that work yes You can. And the way
you do that is you would tell the tool to create
a set of public API keys. Again, kind of coming
back to APIs. So you create a tool that then
has public API keys that can run certain functions
in that tool. And then one tool can then send
API requests to the other tool to then execute
a function and return it back to that initial
tool. So an example is... Let's say I wanted
to build a database of all the leads that we
might want to target. Well, I can build this
database. I can enable this database to have
specific API calls that I might want to enrich
a lead, to go and get specific fields from a
particular lead. Then in another app, I might
have something where I want to, if I plug in
a person's name and their company, I want it
to go check this database to see if We have the
email already for them. And it could easily go
and do that by simply having like these API calls
set up. Or in the example of like that insights
tool I mentioned is I leveraged probably like
seven different APIs in that tool to then get
all of the data that we want to show up in that
tool itself. Yeah, there's definitely a systems
architecture skill to this in terms of being
able to break a process down into its constituent
steps, thinking about what information needs
to come from where. how it needs to be transformed
or used step to step i wish it was a strength
of mine because i really feel like i could build
better things and more clearly articulate to
the ai what i want and maybe i can take my fuzzy
ideas and turn them into system architecture
it does and that was going to recommend so you
mentioned at the beginning when you're talking
about like how do you build these like prompts
to get all the features built one thing that
you can do is you can use voice to text and brain
dump your idea into a chat GPT, put it on thinking
mode and say, build me a product requirements
document for this product. And then it will go
through and think through all the architecture
stuff and think through all of the different
features and user flows. And then you can edit
it more. And then you give that prompt to replant
and say, build this. Thanks. And then it will
go and build that prompt and then build the product.
And you still have to debug along the way, but
you're creating much better. You're using it
as like a meta prompt. That's my Saturday and
Sunday sorted, Harrison. As we sort of drift
towards the end of our conversation here, a couple
of questions more about the future. So just for
you, looking ahead sort of over the next 12 months,
what do you think is overhyped at the moment
in terms of its impact on your role? And conversely,
what do you think is actually going to quietly
change how... sales pros marketers do their work
take the second one first um the second one i
think that uh sdrs and prospecting is going to
become almost obsolete and be handled by a singular
human being that is incredible at using all of
these different tools and systems so somebody
who can basically become like an architect of
your like go -to -market processes so they can
set up systems to listen for different signals
news hiring promotions publications that come
out all of that type of stuff they listen for
it comes into a tool like clay things get filtered
messaging gets drafted messaging gets sent inbound
leads come into your system there's literally
no excuse anymore to not follow up on leads right
i think one of the questions you're going to
ask is about lead scoring i think league swing
is a bunch of bogus and like follow up with everybody.
There's no excuse to not follow up with anybody.
There was always never an excuse, but salespeople
had time that they had to spend on this stuff.
So as marketers, automate that process. Build
and write personalized custom one -to -one messages
to every single lead that get followed up with
within five minutes. Guaranteed, you will convert
infinitely more people into meetings, into opportunities.
I think these things are just going to be all
centralized around a person who's really good
at this stuff. And what that's going to do is
free up the sales reps to focus on their top
tier accounts, right? Where you still want that
human element, right? So there's like this other
component, which you think of, how do I prioritize
all of the accounts in my territory? How do I
prioritize everything within our total addressable
market? With tools like Clay and these other
data sources out there, you can now literally
pull a list of every single company, every single
person in your total addressable market. You
can score them, you can rank them. pass some
off to sales you own these we take this whole
long tail sales is now focused and they're held
accountable to everything going on at those top
accounts so those top you know sorts of people
that they're going after and then this like long
tail gets bubbled up to sales when they're ready
and so i think like architecting these systems
in a way is like very much the now and future
that companies should be moving towards And I
just gave a couple of examples of workflows,
but like there's probably infinitely more that
I'm just, you know, we probably don't have time
to talk through. Yeah. I love the use of the
word conductor. Like sometimes people ask me,
especially people earlier in their career, like
how should I respond to all these things that
are going on in AI? And there's a lot of advice
out there and a lot of it's really good in terms
of stay up to date on what, you know, different
tools can do and where AI is headed. Become an
AI native and be prepared to play with all these
tools exactly like we've talked about today.
But one of the roles I do think is going to become
critical in organizations is the conductor. The
one who is able to leverage these tools to deliver
different tasks, bring the outputs together to
generate meaningful work and outcomes and troubleshoot
and debug and improve them when they break, which
I suspect they will break a lot. which is probably
going to be quite a weird hybrid of subject matter
expertise in the thing, like knowing what good
prospecting looks like and knowing how you should
combine all of these things, but also a technical
capability that is associated with optimizing
and improving the tools, stress testing the tools,
fixing them when they break. And so that's probably,
I think, where people are going to end up spending
a lot of their time to train into the roles of
tomorrow. I agree. I agree. Where do you think
it's going to be overhyped? Why is everybody
talking about this amazing right now that's going
to take longer than everybody thinks? I don't
really personally believe that we're going to
get to this AGI type of thing anytime soon, where
it's this super intelligence that's going to
be able to be good at very specific things. I
think we're going to have... the models will
be great but they're always going to need to
be fine -tuned for a period of time and so like
there's all this like hype and talk about like
we're going to hit AGI super intelligence is
on the way and it's like baby but like in reality
it's probably going to show up at point solutions
and very specific workflows where that expertise
comes in where you have that like level of um
like the value actually is going to come from
the specificity not the like PhD level GPT -5.
Like, it's going to be in the, like, 27 -page
document that you have where you outline exactly
what to do in each scenario. And I think that
that's still going to be the case. So we'll still
need a lot of humans to manage and handle that
stuff. Yeah, it still feels incredibly fragmented.
Like, even the fact that we're talking about
creating micro tools that we then have to find
a clever way to make them play well together,
and then most of the time they're still going
to break. Yeah. That's annoying for you and I,
when we spend a lot of time and are willing to
invest a lot of time in playing with them. For
your average marketer or salesperson and a team
that may not have that time or interest and they
just need it to work, it feels like we're still
quite a long way away from that. So it's quite
a weird time from that perspective. But then
the speed that things are moving at is kind of
hard to quantify. And I was listening to a podcast
yesterday, Sam Morton was on the... Is it A16Z?
I think that's what the investment firms call
Marc Andreessen. And it was the first time I'd
ever heard or the first time in recent times
that I've heard someone, a senior person at an
AI company or lab say, what we are seeing internally
is one to two years ahead of what's in the market.
Because basically it was justifying why they're
making all these bets and spending all this money.
in a sort of backwards way he said you know you
wouldn't invest that money if you didn't see
what was coming sure yeah um whereas i think
that sounds like a hype message to me though
i mean he's probably true i'm sure it's probably
true but like he's probably out there marketing
at the same time that he says that always and
this is so hard now to know what you can trust
probably nothing um Especially now that his avatar
is on Sora 2 and there's all these different
videos being made of him. That's so funny. That's
quite cool. That's quite brave of him to say,
I'm going to stick my neck out. I'm going to
be the first one that makes their avatar available.
Yeah. When it comes to AI, what's the thing that
you're most excited about? Yeah, I don't actually
know. I'm already excited. I am like, this is...
Like this is all like fun. Like everything is
enjoyable. Like it's fun. And I think that's
the thing that excites me is like, how is this
going to become more fun, more entertaining,
where we can tinker more, we can build more things.
Like there's less limitations on what is possible.
I think that's like a continuation of where we're
at today. That's kind of where I'm at. It's fun.
It's a fun time to be being able to play with
all of this stuff. I appreciate that. So last
question. What have we not talked about today
that you think would have been cool to talk about?
Is there anything still on your mind? We talked
about a lot of stuff. Not really. I mean, I think
we talked about a lot of things. I mean, maybe
the only thing I would say is like, if you want
any advice, help to like build out any of these
different systems or tools, or you just need
help building top of funnel pipeline, obviously
reach out to succession .bio. Happy to help.
So there's my plug. Yeah, no, I love that. I
was going to ask you to give me contact details
so people get in touch with you. But I think
you raised a really important point. It's come
up a number of times in the podcast today, which
is some people love tinkering and playing and
building. And some people want something that
works because they've got results to deliver.
And I think, and I don't think there's any, if
there has been in this podcast, I haven't seen
one. There's no value judgment in that. It's
different people are good at different things
and they enjoy. different things so for those
of you that find this stuff nerdy cool and want
to go play with it hopefully you feel encouragement
to go play with it if you are a get stuff done
outcomes i i want the outcomes of that stuff
i don't want to build it myself go find people
who like to build the stuff and then you can
surf the waves they create to like massively
amplify the impact that you can have and that's
where you can work with people like Harrison
on the sales side. We have a consulting and AI
implementation arm at Supreme Group when it comes
to more of the marketing side. There are plenty
of people out there now who've been developing
these skills that you can leverage to help you
get better results. So on that note, thank you
so much for coming on, Harrison. It's been a
pleasure to hang out with you. Thank you. The
podcast is back. I'm excited to be the second
guest on the second iteration of the show. Pleasure's
been all ours, and I'm sure I'll see you soon.
Cheers, buddy. Of course. Yeah, man. Have a good
one. Talk to you later. Thank you for listening
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