1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,680
G'day, ladies. In this podcast, we talk about imposter syndrome. We talk about where it comes

2
00:00:05,680 --> 00:00:10,160
from, how it manifests itself, and at the end, we talk about how you can overcome it.

3
00:00:10,720 --> 00:00:15,840
This is one of our favourite podcasts. We love doing this one, so hope you enjoy. Cheers.

4
00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:19,360
Why do it count backwards? Are they? We're now recording.

5
00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:22,400
What? Hello, Captain.

6
00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:30,400
What do I say? Come fly with me. Let's fly, let's fly away.

7
00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:38,400
What are we going to talk about? I don't know. So, leadership, life, and everything else.

8
00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:43,600
Yeah. And we're live.

9
00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:46,720
No, we're recording. Hey, Michelle.

10
00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:48,160
Hi, Guy. How you doing?

11
00:00:48,160 --> 00:00:50,240
Good. Good to be back in the studio.

12
00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:54,080
It is. We've had a very full couple of weeks. It has been very full, hasn't it?

13
00:00:54,080 --> 00:00:55,120
Yeah. Lots of different things,

14
00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:58,160
lots of workshops. Yes, yes. Exciting times.

15
00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:01,920
And today, we've decided to talk about imposter syndrome.

16
00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:07,120
Yeah, you were discussing or telling me about some of the workshops you've been running of late

17
00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:10,640
and how you've been talking about imposter syndrome.

18
00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:14,240
Yeah, we thought it would be a great topic to talk about today because it's a very common

19
00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:17,200
thing that people suffer from imposter syndrome. Absolutely.

20
00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:20,640
Mm-hmm. So, launching straight into it,

21
00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:27,200
what do you define as imposter syndrome? So, it's essentially that you're in a situation

22
00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:32,800
and you don't think you deserve to be there or you don't deserve the success that you've got

23
00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:38,480
or maybe the position that you've attained in an organization. So, I see it a lot with people

24
00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:44,640
that I coach. They're very senior and they don't feel like they should be there, that they're a

25
00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:50,640
fraud. It's a very common feeling. Yeah, I've been there.

26
00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:51,920
Yeah, you've experienced it as well. I have, yeah.

27
00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:56,160
As have I. Yeah, so I thought it'd be a great topic to talk about today because

28
00:01:57,520 --> 00:02:01,120
it can impact people quite significantly. Yeah.

29
00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:05,440
Yeah. All right. So, let's talk about where it comes from. What are your thoughts? Because

30
00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:09,680
you said you've experienced it. Where does it come from? What is it? So,

31
00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:11,920
if you could describe how you've experienced it.

32
00:02:11,920 --> 00:02:24,080
To me, it's come from an insecurity, I suppose, that I think of really not deserving,

33
00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:33,120
feeling that I'm a fraud basically, that I might get found out on paper. Definitely not.

34
00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:35,840
You've got the experience, you've got the skills.

35
00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:39,280
Yeah, that's right. I deserved to be there. But you're still doubting yourself.

36
00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:51,200
Yeah, that anxiety would creep in and the doubt. I didn't feel that I was there. I shouldn't have

37
00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:58,400
been there. Yeah. So, it does come from insecurity. It comes from the natural fears that we have,

38
00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:04,400
because you remember back in high school, you wanted to fit in. And so, you wanted to feel like

39
00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:09,280
you belonged where you were. And then when you get into your career and you start achieving things,

40
00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:15,200
it's a natural thing. It's always been there. I shouldn't say it's always been there. But for me,

41
00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:22,160
from when I was a young person, I always had this self-doubt, this fear, this sense of anxiety,

42
00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:25,680
because I wasn't a very confident person growing up. But even when I started to get good at things,

43
00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:30,720
I still had that self-doubt traveling with me. It was like a constant companion that wanted to

44
00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:35,760
poke its head out every now and then and interrupt any success that I was having.

45
00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:42,960
Yeah. Look, I did work for a company where I don't know if they meant to, but the culture was

46
00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:48,560
one to really suppress any feelings of... Confidence?

47
00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:55,520
Confidence, yeah. Well, I know that they didn't want that, but the culture was that you'd failed

48
00:03:55,920 --> 00:03:58,720
and you had to prove otherwise. And so, this was in the airline industry?

49
00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:08,160
Yeah. Yeah. So, I know that carried across to then other airlines I worked for. And I always knew who

50
00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:14,320
else had worked for that airline coming from that culture because the anxiety leading up to

51
00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:18,240
simulator sessions was huge. So, their focus was on safety, I presume.

52
00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:22,320
Yes. But this is the way they went about it to make you think that you failed until you've

53
00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:29,120
succeeded. Correct. Okay. But then that created a culture where you fear. Yeah.

54
00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:35,200
And I'm not sure if it's still... Sorry, I'm just flying. It's like a fly as we speak.

55
00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:43,680
I'm not sure if it's still there, but it got to one stage. I know people were kind of... There were

56
00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:49,200
shortages of pilots and people were being overworked. And then the joke was that, oh,

57
00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:56,080
hopefully I've got SIM so I can fail and get some time off. Then people were just kind of

58
00:04:57,440 --> 00:05:03,040
resolved to the fact that they'd probably fail. So, the culture was creating fear, which is the

59
00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:06,640
opposite of psychological safety. And as we've spoken about in a couple of other podcasts,

60
00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:10,400
when people don't feel safe, they make more mistakes because you're focusing on those mistakes

61
00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:14,960
rather than focusing on success. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. So, how does it show up for you?

62
00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:21,120
Can you give me any situations where it showed up for you? Yeah. I've got one that I thought of,

63
00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:28,720
that I was doing an advertisement for one of the airlines I worked for and I had a filming day.

64
00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:35,840
Oh, this is when you were a Captain Virgin. Well, no. I was a pilot. I was a first officer.

65
00:05:35,840 --> 00:05:43,200
And we had our filming day. Now, there were five actual employees of the company and the rest were

66
00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:49,840
extras. And it was an amazing filming day. I've seen this ad. I love this ad.

67
00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:57,680
And it, I'll put a link to it actually in the show notes. But when we were getting ready for

68
00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:05,600
hair and makeup and all the rest, this absolutely beautiful young man came up to me and he said to

69
00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:12,800
me, why are you dressed as a pilot? I would look so much better in that uniform. And the thing is

70
00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:19,920
that he probably would have. And because I was feeling so self-conscious about, I'd just had

71
00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:29,360
chemo and a course of chemo and my hair was still coming back. I wasn't feeling amazing about myself.

72
00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:35,360
So you're a breast cancer survivor. Yes. A warrior. A warrior. That's it. And we,

73
00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:41,680
and then all these extras were beautiful people. Of course, of course. There were the five of us.

74
00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:49,120
And my other colleagues were beautiful. But there was that insecurity that, and him saying that just

75
00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:55,280
kind of put me back in that, oh, you know, maybe I shouldn't be here. Maybe they should have got

76
00:06:55,280 --> 00:06:59,520
this, like this beautiful young man. And he's an extra and you're an actual pilot.

77
00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:05,360
That's right. I know. I know. Silly, hey. Yeah. Well, I think imposter syndrome is silly. It's

78
00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:12,480
a silly part of us. We don't necessarily need it, but it's there. And it's interesting to talk about

79
00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:19,280
how it shows up because it shows up with us focusing on failure rather than focusing on what we

80
00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:26,720
need to do, the steps to achieve something. So we then start to become anxious. It can affect our

81
00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:34,000
mental health. And I've even coached people who, when we sit down in our first session, they actually

82
00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:41,440
label themselves as a failure. They say, I am a failure. So it can go as far as really removing

83
00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:48,800
complete, any sense of confidence whatsoever. And they've labeled themselves as a failure.

84
00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:54,800
And then what that does is that they've programmed their subconscious mind, which acts very much like

85
00:07:54,800 --> 00:08:02,160
a robot. You program it. I am a failure. So from then on, all they can do is find evidence of them

86
00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:06,320
failing. Even if they succeed, they'll find something that they didn't do perfectly so that

87
00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:11,920
they can then confirm to themselves that they're a failure. And it can be quite debilitating to

88
00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:18,000
people when they go really down this rabbit hole of imposter syndrome that they label themselves

89
00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:20,960
as a failure. They program their subconscious mind-

90
00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:21,760
By affirming it.

91
00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:27,440
By affirming it, by only looking for things where they can fail. And I know this is a bit different,

92
00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:31,760
but in one of my courses, I talk about how a lot of people, they think that they've got a bad

93
00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:37,440
memory. A bad memory for names, for example. And so they say to people, oh, I've got such a bad

94
00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:42,320
memory for names. So they program their subconscious mind that they're bad at remembering names. So

95
00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:45,600
the next time they meet somebody, they shake somebody's hand and they say, oh, hi, Michael.

96
00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:49,760
How are you? And then after that, their brain goes, Michael, what's Michael? Michael's a name. What

97
00:08:49,760 --> 00:08:54,080
do we know about names? We're no good at names. Oh, okay. Forget about Michael. And so they're

98
00:08:54,080 --> 00:09:00,480
programming themselves for failure. And people who have really taken on board this imposter syndrome,

99
00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:06,240
they spend a lot of their energy programming themselves to fail so that they can be right.

100
00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:12,240
Oh, well, that's right. I think back, there are times when you've failed at something,

101
00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:19,520
not performed as expected. And then you do, you go into this self-sabotage, I'm hopeless at

102
00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:25,440
everything and it becomes almost catastrophizing. It's, oh my goodness, I can't do anything,

103
00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:32,720
which is ridiculous. You can, but yeah, the self-sabotage takes over. So it causes

104
00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:38,800
like a self-fulfilling, not a prophecy, it's not a prophecy, but it becomes self-fulfilling,

105
00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:41,840
doesn't it? It does. It's like when you go skiing. Have you ever gone skiing?

106
00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:51,200
Yes. You sound as competent at it as I am. I didn't ski, I slid down the slopes. But one of

107
00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:54,480
the things they teach you when you're skiing is don't, for example, if you're going through trees,

108
00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:57,520
you don't look at the tree, you look at the gap. Yeah, follow the path.

109
00:09:57,520 --> 00:10:01,840
Yeah, follow the path. You don't look at the car that you want to avoid, you look at the gap to

110
00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:08,160
where you want your car to go. And I remember when I tried snowboarding, I can ski, I'm not a great

111
00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:13,200
skier, but I thought I'd try snowboarding because it looked fun. And the guy said, if you want to

112
00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:16,960
go that way, look that way. If you want to go the other way, look that way. And then I remembered

113
00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:22,240
that from when I was learning to ski because they tell you, look where you want to go, not where

114
00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:29,040
you don't want to go. So with imposter syndrome, if you're focusing on failing, you often fail.

115
00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:31,200
Because if you fear failure, you make more mistakes.

116
00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:43,840
That reminds me, and my former colleagues, if any are listening, will know who I'm talking

117
00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:50,160
about with this person, but there was a Czech captain and for the command course, he would

118
00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:56,000
make you say loudly and with conviction and keep saying it until he was convinced that,

119
00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:58,720
and this is a language warning here.

120
00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:00,720
Should we bring it out or beep it out?

121
00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:02,720
No.

122
00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:04,720
Okay.

123
00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:09,280
You would have to say, I am the meanest motherfucking pilot to ever fly a 737.

124
00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:09,840
Wow.

125
00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:14,480
And you'd have to keep saying it louder and with conviction because none of this,

126
00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:20,640
you're coming up to be a captain, I don't deserve it. And because it's a journey, it is a long

127
00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:29,120
journey and there are times when you may not perform your best, you're human. And that's what

128
00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:31,680
you mentioned to me, it is a human trait.

129
00:11:31,680 --> 00:11:35,120
Yes. Unless you're a sociopath and you don't doubt yourself ever.

130
00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:43,040
Well, that's right. But also to fail or to stumble. And so, yeah, to get rid of that, to out-talk,

131
00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:48,800
out-affirm that I'm a failure with I am the meanest motherfucking pilot to ever fly a 737.

132
00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:52,880
So you're trained to just barge through any imposter syndrome.

133
00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:53,360
That's it.

134
00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:58,320
Barge through any insecurity. I like that. That's interesting. Yeah, I've done a bit of work with

135
00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:03,680
sports psychologists around mindset with regards to sport. So I want to ask you, have you ever

136
00:12:03,680 --> 00:12:07,200
suffered from imposter syndrome? What stories come to mind?

137
00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:12,960
Probably one of the first ones would be I was elected school captain in primary school

138
00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:22,000
and I wasn't a popular person at all at school. I was the nerdy one. I did very well in school

139
00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:30,240
academically, but, and I was also tall, gorky. I was athletic. I ran a lot, but definitely not

140
00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:37,360
popular. And I was voted school captain and people were like, how come you got it when,

141
00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:43,120
you know, the popular girl only became vice captain. And what I found out were, was that

142
00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:53,040
teachers had also voted me in, but it was that real, I won it, I suppose. But then I was why me?

143
00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:56,880
I didn't want to be in the spotlight because I didn't feel like I deserved it. I didn't

144
00:12:56,880 --> 00:13:01,440
feel like I should have been the one up there. Maybe a prefect.

145
00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:04,240
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. All right.

146
00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:08,080
How about you?

147
00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:15,360
Well, the first story that comes to mind, actually this was a big moment for me. So you know,

148
00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:19,760
from our very first podcast that I have a background in IT. I'm a nerd, I'm a geek. I used

149
00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:30,240
to train IT and teach it. And so I was working for a company and we were teaching, we were working

150
00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:35,360
in the federal magistrates court and the family court of Australia, teaching the employees there,

151
00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:41,360
their new computer software program. So there's a program called Case Track, which I believe still

152
00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:47,360
exists. And I remember I was told that I was going to have to go into the magic of the

153
00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:53,920
office, the judges, and teach them how to use the computer. And I started to panic, I started to fear

154
00:13:54,880 --> 00:13:58,400
because I'm going to be working with these magistrates, these judges. And I was told

155
00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:02,880
how I was meant to address them. And I can't even remember the words, it's something like

156
00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:07,520
you're wrong or something like that that you would see in movies. And I was getting really nervous.

157
00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:14,240
And I mentioned it to a friend of mine, a mentor, and he said some of the best advice

158
00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:19,680
I've ever received. He looked me square in the eyes and said, guy, you know more than them

159
00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:25,840
in Case Track. They might be a judge, they might be a magistrate, but you know more than

160
00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:30,960
them about what you're going in there to teach them about. And he then said something that was

161
00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:37,600
really powerful, he said, they're human beings. They're just like you. And so that whole fear of

162
00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:42,560
hierarchy, that fear of these people who are at the top of their careers, that fear of

163
00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:46,880
people who are at the top of their career, judges and magistrates, it just completely went away.

164
00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:50,480
And I remember walking into this magistrate's office, just walking straight up to him and

165
00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:56,640
introducing myself, g'day, I'm Guy, instead of your honor, your majesty.

166
00:14:56,640 --> 00:14:57,280
Bowing.

167
00:14:57,280 --> 00:15:02,160
Yeah, I just walked in there. And I remember after that day, I've had imposter syndrome many,

168
00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:08,000
many times since then, but that was the first really big event that taught me something that,

169
00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:12,560
in that situation, I knew more than them. So what was I fearing? If I made a mistake,

170
00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:16,480
they would never know that I made a mistake. And not that I wanted to make mistakes, but I no

171
00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:21,760
longer feared making mistakes, but I didn't fear them because they were human beings and we're all

172
00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:27,520
humans, regardless of what level of success we have. And then that actually helped me.

173
00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:35,120
Even years later, I was working at the prime minister's office as an IT consultant, and they

174
00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:40,560
asked me to go to the prime minister's house here in Sydney at Kirribilli and do some work on his

175
00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:45,200
computer. So this is when John Howard was the prime minister. And so I remember rocking up early

176
00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:49,280
in the morning and they ushered me into the kitchen and his personal chef made me breakfast. And I

177
00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:54,480
thought, oh, this is nice. But then I started to fear that I shouldn't be there, that I didn't

178
00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:59,600
think I was experienced enough. And then whilst I was sitting there having breakfast, I started to

179
00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:04,960
feel nervous. I'm thinking, this is weird. I haven't had these feelings for a little while now.

180
00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:09,440
And again, I was having imposter syndrome. I didn't think I needed to be there. But anyway,

181
00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:14,560
I ended up going into John Howard's office. He wasn't there. I installed some software,

182
00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:18,640
did a few things on his computer, and then his wife came in and I helped her use the computer.

183
00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:22,960
She wanted me to show her how to look at some photos that she received from the president of

184
00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:27,440
the US. And so I walked her through it and she said, oh, thank you very much. She left the room.

185
00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:34,000
I thought that was it. And I was fearing this. Yeah. So yeah, I've had it quite a few times.

186
00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:42,160
Well, I think when the buildup as well, you know, your mind starts, and you know this

187
00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:48,800
more than I do, is it adrenaline and cortisol that increase. And so it almost squeezes out

188
00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:55,200
what I found is that this buildup in your mind, it squeezes out any knowledge that you have and

189
00:16:55,200 --> 00:17:03,520
you start to become blank. Yes. Yeah. And so I had a time when I was learning to fly and

190
00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:10,320
we were doing crosswind landings and I hated them because I didn't know how to do them.

191
00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:16,400
And so I remember one day it was forecast to be windy and my instructor said, okay,

192
00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:21,280
we're going to do crosswind landings until you get it right. And I woke up early and I looked out the

193
00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:27,280
window and there was a breeze and I'm my, you know, I started to get tight in the chest almost and

194
00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:35,120
feel sick and my heartbeat was pounding. Then as I'm driving, like I couldn't eat, I was too nervous.

195
00:17:35,120 --> 00:17:41,440
As I'm driving out to the airport, it seemed to be getting windier and windier, almost like a tornado

196
00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:49,440
and I'm forgetting everything. So I tried to make it as steps that I could just, you know,

197
00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:55,680
interwind, you know, rather to correct, dip the wing, this sort of thing and maintain centerline.

198
00:17:55,680 --> 00:18:01,680
And I forgot all of it. And I turned up to the airport and parked and I'm thinking,

199
00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:05,280
I don't know how to do this. I have never, it's like I've never done it ever.

200
00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:12,960
And I'd been practicing and we went and did it. And I went to the toilet so many times beforehand.

201
00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:19,120
I was so nervous and just thinking, maybe I'm not cut out to be a pilot. Like if I can't do this,

202
00:18:19,120 --> 00:18:24,080
I can only fly when there's no wind. I'll be a fair weather pilot. That's okay with me.

203
00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:29,120
A regular day, isn't it? No wind. That's okay with me. But I was really thinking,

204
00:18:29,120 --> 00:18:34,960
I should not be here. I shouldn't be doing this. Like I'm not cut out to be a pilot, obviously.

205
00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:44,480
We went up and because it was so windy, then it made it really obvious what I should be doing.

206
00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:50,640
And from then on, it clicked. Like when it did click, then I love windy days. So, you know,

207
00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:58,240
it's like, yes, bring it. But it was really, yeah, I was doubting my career choice.

208
00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:01,760
It was funny while you're saying that story, I'm picturing Dorothy

209
00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:08,160
and the cyclone in The Wizard of Oz. And it's getting stronger and stronger and stronger.

210
00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:09,920
That's right. I knew nothing.

211
00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:16,560
Well, that happens when you start to go into that final flight. You lose memory. You lose memory.

212
00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:19,920
And so that's one of the things that your brain does. It's like the shut down parts of your brain

213
00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:24,080
that doesn't need anymore because you're in fight or flight. You need to react, not sit there and

214
00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:29,520
recall instructions. You should be operating from habit. But that's that's the wall shut down

215
00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:33,520
because you're in fight or flight. Yeah, the adrenocorticotropic hormone that's released into

216
00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:36,080
your body and then builds up over time. That's it. I knew that you'd come up with that one.

217
00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:43,360
Yes, I knew it didn't mean some of that stuff. I had similar experiences when I was playing

218
00:19:43,360 --> 00:19:49,040
water polo. So when we were traveling overseas and we're playing against other nations in Italy,

219
00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:55,760
and when I played my worst and that was regrettably, it was often when we weren't in big

220
00:19:55,760 --> 00:20:00,560
competitions. For some reason, I was able to get my mind right in bigger competitions. But when we're

221
00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:05,680
in training camps in places like Italy and Greece and stuff like that, occasionally, and I've

222
00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:11,680
thought about this endlessly, occasionally we'd be playing training matches against Italy and Spain

223
00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:18,320
and different countries. And I'd get into my head and I'd start thinking and I'd start playing bad.

224
00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:21,920
And then when I started playing bad, I'd focus on what the mistakes I was making and then it was

225
00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:26,160
getting worse and I'd play worse and worse. And I remember one tour, I thought, sorry for the

226
00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:30,640
Australian coach, because I'm a goalkeeper and there's always two goalkeepers on tour, but the

227
00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:36,240
other goalkeeper injured himself. So it's now just me. And so I'm playing. But then I injured myself.

228
00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:42,160
I've always had a crook neck from when I was a kid. I was doing a high jump. I missed the mat.

229
00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:46,160
I landed on the ground and I've got a little bone in my neck that decided to go sideways.

230
00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:51,680
Yeah. And so ever since then, if I turn my neck quickly, it just goes out, it kind of locks up.

231
00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:56,720
And so when it locks up, my spine's in pain. I can still move, but anyway, so that happens to me.

232
00:20:56,720 --> 00:21:02,000
And so now I'm playing, I was playing bad, but now I'm playing worse and I'm getting worse and

233
00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:08,480
I'm getting worse. And then I remember during one of the breaks at quarter time, my coach had

234
00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:13,440
changed our tactics to play a press defense instead of a zone defense. And he said, and we're doing

235
00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:17,760
this because you can't even stop a ball. Right. He was getting very frustrated. And rightly so,

236
00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:22,800
because he's got somebody playing in goals who's playing like a third, a fourth grader. Like I was

237
00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:27,200
in the national team and I was playing horrible. I really was. I remember this because I've had

238
00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:32,960
nightmares about it many, many times since. And his frustration came out and he said that. And then

239
00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:38,480
I played even worse because now not only am I beating myself up, he's beating me up. And rightly

240
00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:42,400
so, because I was playing shit. I was really playing terribly. And I remember that because

241
00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:48,000
all I could do was focus on what I was doing wrong, not what I was doing right. And so after that,

242
00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:53,440
I developed this little habit that every time somebody scored a goal against me,

243
00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:57,440
before I'd get the ball out of the back of the goal and throw it back to halfway,

244
00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:02,640
I would replay the scene in my head as if I succeeded, as if I'd saved it.

245
00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:03,140
Wow.

246
00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:08,240
And so before I'd even turn around and grab the ball, because the ball in the back of the net is

247
00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:13,600
failure. What I'd do is I'd replay the scene in my mind. I'd even practice with my body what I

248
00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:18,400
should have done to save the ball, cemented that in. That's what I'd do next time. Grab the ball,

249
00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:22,560
throw it to halfway. And when I started to develop that habit, every time they scored a goal,

250
00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:27,520
I then forgot about it. So the games that I played really badly, I could remember every goal that

251
00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:33,120
they scored. The games that I played well, I couldn't remember a single goal that was scored

252
00:22:33,120 --> 00:22:39,040
against me because I was rewinding my brain, replaying it with a new success story. And that

253
00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:44,240
was one of the things that I used to actually overcome imposter syndromes was not to remember

254
00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:53,200
the failures, to use them as an opportunity to learn. That reminds me, and we were talking

255
00:22:53,200 --> 00:23:02,000
about it on the walk this morning, that so failures are basically the outcome is not as expected.

256
00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:03,680
Yeah, not the desired outcome.

257
00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:11,600
Yeah. And we were talking about there was a business that made, it still makes millions,

258
00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:16,960
billions of dollars, or probably not that was an exaggeration, millions of dollars based on a

259
00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:18,800
failure. Remember 3M?

260
00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:22,000
3M, yeah, the glue. Yeah, yeah. Post-it notes.

261
00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:26,000
Post-it notes are a failure. Well, the post-it notes themselves are not a failure, but the

262
00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:33,280
glue that the person was trying to make didn't stick. So they turned it into post-it notes.

263
00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:38,960
And so yeah, yeah, that was a great story of turning what could have been a failure into a

264
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:39,520
success story.

265
00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:40,640
That's right. Sorry, that was a little...

266
00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:46,240
No, not at all. Not at all. Have you got any other stories where you suffered from imposter

267
00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:46,720
syndrome?

268
00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:55,680
Yeah, look, I've got many, but one of the things that came to mind was when in a

269
00:23:55,680 --> 00:24:02,560
simulator session, it was a simulator check and I was the first officer and we'd been doing... So

270
00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:11,280
what typically happened was one pilot went first, did a scenario and then to the end to landing,

271
00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:18,080
and then the next pilot redid it from the beginning as well to landing. And the captain

272
00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:28,480
went first on this particular one and he failed. I went next, did the same thing and I passed.

273
00:24:29,360 --> 00:24:31,280
Even though you did exactly the same as well.

274
00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:37,760
That's right. And I came out of there with relief because I'd passed, but feeling like I didn't

275
00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:41,280
deserve it because the captain had failed for the same thing.

276
00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:43,360
So why did the captain fail and you didn't?

277
00:24:43,360 --> 00:24:49,680
Well, it seemed to be a bit of a pattern. And what it was is we found out because

278
00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:55,920
assessing a pilot is also personal preferences come in.

279
00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:56,400
Oh, really?

280
00:24:56,400 --> 00:25:02,400
And I found out this particular check captain, that's right, was failing captains for it,

281
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:07,760
but not first officers. Don't know the reasoning, but it really set up this thing of I didn't

282
00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:13,040
deserve that. I feel like I shouldn't be here when I was flying and that captain then wasn't

283
00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:14,160
because he'd failed.

284
00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:16,000
So it felt like favoritism almost.

285
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:18,320
It did. It just was unjust.

286
00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:22,560
So there you go, we found another cause of imposter syndrome, potential favoritism.

287
00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:31,760
That's right. So almost, yeah, well, maybe that just brings to mind there's this thought now

288
00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:39,840
amongst Gen Xers, I suppose, that kids of today get an award or a merit for just showing up.

289
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:43,040
Yeah. Or even if they don't.

290
00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:46,720
When I played football as a kid, my younger brother got the trophy for best interest every

291
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:51,680
year. He was a genius and I got the trophy for turning up. It was called the best team man

292
00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:57,120
trophy. And basically they're saying, hey, well done for turning up. You were always there,

293
00:25:57,120 --> 00:26:00,640
but now it's the participation trophy and everyone gets one.

294
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:02,960
So I wonder what that'll look like down the track.

295
00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:07,600
Well, I've got a theory about it. I think we should have participation trophies for the young kids

296
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:12,560
just to, you know, hey, well done. And it's an effort trophy that you turned up, but it's an

297
00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:19,360
effort trophy. But we should also give the best and fairest. That's the thing that's missing in

298
00:26:19,360 --> 00:26:25,120
my opinion. I think we need to give kids the trophy for, hey, well done, good effort this season,

299
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:30,320
to encourage them to come back next year. But the kid who did the best needs to get that trophy

300
00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:34,400
because kids need to learn that life is competition. There is competition everywhere. You

301
00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:40,240
compete for a job, you compete for a girlfriend, you compete for everything. And so it'd be lovely

302
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:42,800
if we never had to compete, but that's just not the world.

303
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:44,240
No, no, that's right.

304
00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:53,680
Have you ever had the opposite of imposter syndrome? And I see the opposite of imposter

305
00:26:53,680 --> 00:27:00,960
syndrome as flow, the zone or deep work, they call it. So there's kind of three terms, but

306
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:04,720
flow, it's where everything just seems to be happening seamlessly. Have you ever had that

307
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:12,480
situation? Yeah, I love it. It's addictive. So this, again, another captain I flew with,

308
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:20,960
a beautiful man, and he was an amazing pilot. He also flew by the book. So you turned up to work

309
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:28,800
and it was a great day. We had a simulator check together. And so I knew what he expected of me.

310
00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:36,000
I knew how he operated. He knew how I operated and also to the book. And so there was that we

311
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:42,320
were relaxed. There wasn't anxiety. And we just flew like it was a normal day, even though it was

312
00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:47,760
a check and engines were failing or on fire and the whole thing, it was still just a normal day

313
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:56,480
of flying. So there was no anxiety, no pressure. We even had time to chat, which in a SIM session,

314
00:27:56,480 --> 00:28:00,160
there's none. You're always stressing about what have I forgotten? Is there something I should be

315
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:06,560
doing? What's coming next? And this was just like, hi, almost like, do you want a coffee?

316
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:15,520
And we both did really well. We both got fives. But the funny thing was that the check captain said

317
00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:21,600
to me after in the debrief, he goes, oh, Michelle, you were probably smiling too much and laughing a

318
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:26,240
bit too much. And I don't recall I was laughing, but I may have been because I laugh all the time.

319
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:34,880
But the, and the captain stood up for me, Chris, and he said, how can you say that when we were,

320
00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:42,240
we, we operated as a perfect crew, you actually awarded us five out of five, both of us and had

321
00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:46,720
made the comment. It was one of the best SIM sessions you've ever seen. And now you're trying

322
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:53,520
to diminish Michelle's effort by telling her she smiles too much or laugh. And so I was so,

323
00:28:53,520 --> 00:29:00,080
I was so grateful for him. And I did, we felt like we were like super pilots. It was like,

324
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:05,040
if this is every SIM session, I'm, I'm, you know, captain wonderful sort of thing. And yeah.

325
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:10,320
Yeah. I think that check captain didn't understand something about humans. When we are relaxed,

326
00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:18,400
when we are enjoying ourselves, when we're even laughing and we feel the ultimate sense of calmness

327
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:24,720
because of that, we make far fewer mistakes. We can get out of our head. We can, we're just in the

328
00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:29,360
moment we're in flow, like you're experiencing. I don't think he understood humans well enough,

329
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:37,200
because if I saw somebody smiling, enjoying themselves whilst they're in a simulator and

330
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:43,600
the engines on fire, I would know that they're in a, in a good head space. But if they're panicky,

331
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:48,880
yeah, you don't want somebody panicky. I guess what he wants someone to do is take it seriously,

332
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:53,520
just take it seriously, you know, put a, put a stone, but, but not be scared. But you were,

333
00:29:53,520 --> 00:30:00,160
you were in ultimate flow and I've had a similar experience playing sport. So I told you before

334
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:04,720
about how I used to play really badly in certain situations. I remember one tournament, we were in

335
00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:11,440
Hungary and we're playing against the top, top nations and we ended up winning. And I,

336
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:17,280
I, it was the first time we've won a gold medal as the Australian men's team, the women are champions,

337
00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:22,240
they win all the time, but this was our first gold medal internationally. And I remember that

338
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:28,320
tournament distinctly because I was in flow, I was in the zone, the whole tournament. And like you,

339
00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:33,040
I had a smile on my face. Yeah. Yeah. I was always panicky before, not panicky always,

340
00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:38,160
but I've had tournaments where I've been in flow, but this one, I was in flow the whole tournament.

341
00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:42,640
It's almost like things were happening in slow motion. It's almost like the, the players were

342
00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:48,480
further away from me than what they actually were. And I could see the ball coming to me and I felt

343
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:54,560
joy because I was in the moment. There was nothing else existing. Time was slowing down. I was

344
00:30:54,560 --> 00:31:00,560
enjoying myself and I was just operating on instinct and habit. And I could almost observe

345
00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:05,120
what was going on rather than being there. That third person sort of thing. Yeah. Yeah. That you

346
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:12,160
can do in your head. And it was the most enjoyable experience I've ever had playing sport in life.

347
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:17,760
Really, it's when you're in deep, deep flow and you get out of your head and there's no fear

348
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:22,480
whatsoever. And because of that, all of the training could just kick in. All my instincts

349
00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:27,600
could kick in and it was, yeah, it was just the most wonderful experience. And we won, we ended

350
00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:32,720
up winning and we walked away with trophies and it was a fantastic feeling. And I wish I'd been

351
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:38,800
able to bottle that and then straight away apply it forever. But yeah, regrettably the next year,

352
00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:47,360
it wasn't there with me. So it's an interesting thing. And athletes train for it. They aim for

353
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:53,520
it. We didn't do a, I don't think back then we did enough to focus on getting into that state.

354
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:55,920
Because I don't think we knew as much as what we do know now.

355
00:31:55,920 --> 00:32:04,160
How can we, like we've discussed this, how you can manage imposter syndrome or avoid it

356
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:08,720
completely, like if you can avoid it completely. So how do we fix it? Or how do we avoid it? Okay.

357
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:14,560
Yeah. I've got quite a few ideas that I teach people now and I'm sure you've got some techniques

358
00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:18,960
that you use yourself because you went on to become a very successful captain. And

359
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:24,000
you had a long career in the aviation industry and it's seemingly that everything you try your

360
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:30,400
hand at, you're very good at. So the things that I do, the first thing is body language.

361
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:35,920
And I think we're talking about this in the past in the confidence podcast that we did,

362
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:41,200
that if you stand confidently, if you walk confidently, if you show confidence in your

363
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:46,160
body language, and we learned this from Amy Cuddy, the TED Talk podcast, and we learned this from

364
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:50,160
your body language, and we learned this from Amy Cuddy, the TED Talk that she did, that your body

365
00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:54,560
will then produce the chemicals associated with feeling strong and powerful. But if you show fear

366
00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:59,200
in your body language, your body will then release the adrenocorticotropic hormone, which turns into

367
00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:04,080
the fight or flight, adrenaline and cortisol. And so that's the first thing. So just be very

368
00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:09,840
mindful of your body because when you are feeling fear, you naturally make yourself smaller, you

369
00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:15,520
start to protect yourself, you hunch, you cross your legs, you do all of these things. But if you

370
00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:20,800
stand tall, stand confidently, that's the first thing I'd suggest people do. Just be very, very

371
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:26,320
conscious of what their body language is saying to themselves. Have you got any tips?

372
00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:34,640
Well, I like affirmations or affirming. So like Captain Pete used to say and get us to say,

373
00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:42,320
but also just doing a catalogue in my mind or on paper of what I've actually achieved,

374
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:47,680
the qualifications I have, the experience I have, because often we forget it's really easy

375
00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:55,040
to praise somebody else and to tell them how great they are for what they've accomplished.

376
00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:58,000
But for some reason, it's really hard to do it to yourself.

377
00:33:58,000 --> 00:33:59,600
Because we don't want to be arrogant, I guess.

378
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:05,120
Yeah. And so just that you can do it in private, just the whole thing of, you know, well done,

379
00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:10,000
giving yourself a bit of a high five, which I do physically do and I won't show you now because

380
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:12,480
we can't see it. Or is it just a clap?

381
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:16,320
Eddie is a bit up high. Clapping above our head.

382
00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:22,080
Yes. I like that. And you know, just kind of that, you've got this, you've done it, well done,

383
00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:24,240
you know. A bit of self praise.

384
00:34:24,240 --> 00:34:28,080
Yeah, yeah. Which I always found hard to do.

385
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:34,000
Now the thing I do is, and it's something I teach, is focus on the steps.

386
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:35,520
Yes. Yeah, just focus on the steps.

387
00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:36,880
Yeah. Focus on what you need to do.

388
00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:38,400
The process. Focus on your routines,

389
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:44,800
focus on the steps. So LeBron James, Michael Jordan, all of the fabulous basketballers that

390
00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:48,960
I grew up idolizing. I didn't grow up with LeBron James, he's the current champion, but

391
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:53,360
they all have routines. You see them when they're rocking up to the game. They're all in headphones,

392
00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:57,680
they're listening to the same music, they follow the same routines, and they're focusing on the

393
00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:03,440
steps. Yeah. And so a lot of athletes, they have routines that they follow because it just gets

394
00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:08,560
their mind thinking on what they need to do, not fearing the consequences and that sort of stuff.

395
00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:13,280
So you see that a lot in sport, but in business, in any area of life, if you focus on the steps

396
00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:16,400
required to complete the task, the steps required to do whatever it is you're doing,

397
00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:22,880
then you're focusing on the, not the fear of failing, but you're focusing on how you're

398
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:26,880
going to get to the outcome you desire. Yeah. So I suppose you could even, you know,

399
00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:31,360
your lucky undies or your special tie or something if you're going into, you know,

400
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:35,440
do a proposal or whatever you could. I don't know about lucky undies.

401
00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:39,520
You don't have lucky undies? I don't have any lucky undies. No, no, no, no, no, no. I have undies,

402
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:44,720
not lucky undies. Because I, yeah, one thing I did want to move away from when I was playing sport

403
00:35:44,720 --> 00:35:48,320
was superstition. Yes. That if I didn't, because then if I didn't have the lucky undies with me,

404
00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:52,080
I couldn't succeed. Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah. So I didn't want to rely on things that

405
00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:58,960
were external to me. I only ever wanted to rely on me. And so I did that as well after playing

406
00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:03,840
sport. So instead of then maybe attributing to a physical item, could you do, and I know Tony

407
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:08,240
Robbins does this, like a power pose. Power pose, body language, yeah, all that sort of stuff.

408
00:36:08,240 --> 00:36:15,120
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I've found it difficult to attribute success to external things because if

409
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:21,280
those external things weren't there, then I'd be fearful. Yeah. So I like your affirming and

410
00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:26,880
your self-praise stuff. There's another thing that we talk about a lot off the podcast is about

411
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:34,160
breath work and breathing and the power of breath work. So maybe before, if you're feeling anxiety,

412
00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:39,760
do you box breathing, which is, you know, breathe in for four seconds, hold for four seconds,

413
00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:44,640
out for four seconds, hold for four seconds, in for four. So you're doing that box breathing.

414
00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:48,800
That could be something that people could use to, when the anxiety or the fear is coming up.

415
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:56,640
And yeah, one process I found that worked for me is also focusing on now. So in a simulator session

416
00:36:56,640 --> 00:37:03,600
for example, you know, blue up, brown down, which was the sky up, yeah, basically. So blue up,

417
00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:10,800
brown down. And it was just focus on where you're at. So, you know, aviate, navigate, communicate. So

418
00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:17,760
basically do what you need to survive, get in a right situation straight up. And that could be,

419
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:23,520
you know, I'll look at the sky right now. Can I hear the bird singing right now? What's in my hand?

420
00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:30,720
And, you know, having a necklace or a ring or something that you focus on, having something to

421
00:37:30,720 --> 00:37:37,520
just take your mind off that I shouldn't be here and the anxiety that exists then because of that,

422
00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:42,480
just like, no, I'm here, breathe in, breathe out, breathe in, breathe out. Don't forget.

423
00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:51,120
And then, you know, one step at a time. Yeah. I want to kind of like

424
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:59,520
bring it all back together. Not that we've taken it apart, but I want people to understand what

425
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:05,840
failure actually is. It's not failure. It's not failure. There's no such thing as failure.

426
00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:13,280
It's learning. Yes. Human beings have to fail to learn. Think about it. When you're a child,

427
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:19,600
you stand up a thousand times before you can walk. And when we're a kid, we just keep trying,

428
00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:22,720
we just keep trying, keep trying. We stand up, we fall down, we stand up, we fall down.

429
00:38:22,720 --> 00:38:26,400
Because we're seeing all of these other people doing it. Oh, yeah, stand up, fall down. You know,

430
00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:34,320
you've seen children learn to walk. And because they can't think, they don't have the language,

431
00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:38,560
they're not doubting themselves. They're not sitting there going, oh, I'm an imposter,

432
00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:42,080
I can't walk, I shouldn't be a human being. They just keep trying. But as we get older,

433
00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:46,240
when we start to develop an ego, when we start to look at failure, oh, you know, people are going

434
00:38:46,240 --> 00:38:49,760
to think, you know, we start to worry about, yeah, we're worried about what other people are thinking.

435
00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:56,640
We need to change our relationship to failure. There's no such thing. It is just learning. And

436
00:38:56,640 --> 00:39:02,080
every single day we do our best. And every single day we will learn from the previous day because

437
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:07,200
that's what failure is. It's learning. There's no such thing as failure. So ultimately, to get

438
00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:12,800
rid of imposter syndrome, and I think I finally got rid of it. There are situations where I

439
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:18,560
lack a bit of confidence every now and then. But I've stopped fearing what other people think

440
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:24,400
because even when I do fail, there's no such thing as failure. I'm just learning. I'm just learning.

441
00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:30,960
And yeah, I'm not as hard on myself now as what I used to be when I was younger. What about yourself?

442
00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:32,160
I'm aiming.

443
00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:34,800
You're aiming for it. You're still on the journey.

444
00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:44,080
I am still on the journey. Yeah. But not as well as what you did with the goal. I really like what

445
00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:48,400
you were talking about, how you would instead of before you went and collected the ball, you

446
00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:56,400
replayed that situation, but with a success. This is what I now do. If there's something that didn't

447
00:39:56,400 --> 00:40:03,680
go as I wanted it to go, I redo it. And I do it with breathwork. Whilst I'm doing breathwork,

448
00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:12,960
I reimagine it successfully or how I wanted it to play out. And so then in my mind, I'm rewiring,

449
00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:15,280
hardwiring that outcome.

450
00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:24,160
Have we spoken about Life University? No. When my head hits the pillow?

451
00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:24,800
Oh, yes.

452
00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:30,400
Yeah. When my head hits the pillow, I go to Life University. It's a little thing I've been doing

453
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:36,960
for a long time. I rewind the day, look at how it went, see if there's anything that I could have

454
00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:43,360
done better or that it didn't go the way I wanted it. And then I think, okay, how do I rewire this

455
00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:47,760
in my head? What do I do differently? And then when I go to sleep, my brain is programming myself to

456
00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:50,240
be different in the future. Nice. You like it?

457
00:40:50,240 --> 00:40:53,920
Yeah. Yeah. Cool. I think that is a fantastic...

458
00:40:54,640 --> 00:41:00,240
I just wanted to say, I really appreciate, we really appreciate all of the messages

459
00:41:00,240 --> 00:41:05,840
and emails that we've been receiving about the podcast and some of the topics people

460
00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:11,520
want to hear about and some guests that people want to hear from. It's amazing. Thank you.

461
00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:12,640
Keep them coming, please.

462
00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:17,600
It's lovely. It's lovely to hear from you all. And we've got so many suggestions about topics

463
00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:23,680
people want to learn about, so we will be recording those in the future. Yeah. Cool. Cool. And merch?

464
00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:25,360
Yes. Yes. Yes.

465
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:26,320
We have merch.

466
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:28,320
We do. T-shirts and hats.

467
00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:33,840
T-shirts and hats. And it has your fabulous slogan, more dogs on it.

468
00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:36,880
More dogs. We think the world will be a better place with more dogs.

469
00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:40,160
Yeah. Yeah. So how do we finish this podcast up?

470
00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:43,120
Thank you for coming on the journey with us.

471
00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:45,280
Yeah. This is all aboard.

472
00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:46,720
Yeah, it's all aboard. That's right.

473
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:49,360
Okay. Great to see you again, Michelle.

474
00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:49,920
Thanks, Guy. Bye.

475
00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:50,480
Take care. Bye.

476
00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:52,880
So Michelle, where can they find us?

477
00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:57,920
CaptainAndTheClown.com. Where you'll find links to our websites for

478
00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:03,360
keynote speaking and corporate training. Yes. That's CaptainAndTheClown.com.

479
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:05,520
Well, that was fun.

480
00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:06,240
That was fun.

481
00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:08,720
You're such a clown.

482
00:42:08,720 --> 00:42:10,800
The clown, Captain. Lady captain.

483
00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:15,200
And who's going to listen to this? Maybe our mums.

484
00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:23,280
Thanks, mum.