G'day, ladies. In this podcast, we talk about imposter syndrome. We talk about where it comes
from, how it manifests itself, and at the end, we talk about how you can overcome it.
This is one of our favourite podcasts. We love doing this one, so hope you enjoy. Cheers.
Why do it count backwards? Are they? We're now recording.
What? Hello, Captain.
What do I say? Come fly with me. Let's fly, let's fly away.
What are we going to talk about? I don't know. So, leadership, life, and everything else.
Yeah. And we're live.
No, we're recording. Hey, Michelle.
Hi, Guy. How you doing?
Good. Good to be back in the studio.
It is. We've had a very full couple of weeks. It has been very full, hasn't it?
Yeah. Lots of different things,
lots of workshops. Yes, yes. Exciting times.
And today, we've decided to talk about imposter syndrome.
Yeah, you were discussing or telling me about some of the workshops you've been running of late
and how you've been talking about imposter syndrome.
Yeah, we thought it would be a great topic to talk about today because it's a very common
thing that people suffer from imposter syndrome. Absolutely.
Mm-hmm. So, launching straight into it,
what do you define as imposter syndrome? So, it's essentially that you're in a situation
and you don't think you deserve to be there or you don't deserve the success that you've got
or maybe the position that you've attained in an organization. So, I see it a lot with people
that I coach. They're very senior and they don't feel like they should be there, that they're a
fraud. It's a very common feeling. Yeah, I've been there.
Yeah, you've experienced it as well. I have, yeah.
As have I. Yeah, so I thought it'd be a great topic to talk about today because
it can impact people quite significantly. Yeah.
Yeah. All right. So, let's talk about where it comes from. What are your thoughts? Because
you said you've experienced it. Where does it come from? What is it? So,
if you could describe how you've experienced it.
To me, it's come from an insecurity, I suppose, that I think of really not deserving,
feeling that I'm a fraud basically, that I might get found out on paper. Definitely not.
You've got the experience, you've got the skills.
Yeah, that's right. I deserved to be there. But you're still doubting yourself.
Yeah, that anxiety would creep in and the doubt. I didn't feel that I was there. I shouldn't have
been there. Yeah. So, it does come from insecurity. It comes from the natural fears that we have,
because you remember back in high school, you wanted to fit in. And so, you wanted to feel like
you belonged where you were. And then when you get into your career and you start achieving things,
it's a natural thing. It's always been there. I shouldn't say it's always been there. But for me,
from when I was a young person, I always had this self-doubt, this fear, this sense of anxiety,
because I wasn't a very confident person growing up. But even when I started to get good at things,
I still had that self-doubt traveling with me. It was like a constant companion that wanted to
poke its head out every now and then and interrupt any success that I was having.
Yeah. Look, I did work for a company where I don't know if they meant to, but the culture was
one to really suppress any feelings of... Confidence?
Confidence, yeah. Well, I know that they didn't want that, but the culture was that you'd failed
and you had to prove otherwise. And so, this was in the airline industry?
Yeah. Yeah. So, I know that carried across to then other airlines I worked for. And I always knew who
else had worked for that airline coming from that culture because the anxiety leading up to
simulator sessions was huge. So, their focus was on safety, I presume.
Yes. But this is the way they went about it to make you think that you failed until you've
succeeded. Correct. Okay. But then that created a culture where you fear. Yeah.
And I'm not sure if it's still... Sorry, I'm just flying. It's like a fly as we speak.
I'm not sure if it's still there, but it got to one stage. I know people were kind of... There were
shortages of pilots and people were being overworked. And then the joke was that, oh,
hopefully I've got SIM so I can fail and get some time off. Then people were just kind of
resolved to the fact that they'd probably fail. So, the culture was creating fear, which is the
opposite of psychological safety. And as we've spoken about in a couple of other podcasts,
when people don't feel safe, they make more mistakes because you're focusing on those mistakes
rather than focusing on success. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. So, how does it show up for you?
Can you give me any situations where it showed up for you? Yeah. I've got one that I thought of,
that I was doing an advertisement for one of the airlines I worked for and I had a filming day.
Oh, this is when you were a Captain Virgin. Well, no. I was a pilot. I was a first officer.
And we had our filming day. Now, there were five actual employees of the company and the rest were
extras. And it was an amazing filming day. I've seen this ad. I love this ad.
And it, I'll put a link to it actually in the show notes. But when we were getting ready for
hair and makeup and all the rest, this absolutely beautiful young man came up to me and he said to
me, why are you dressed as a pilot? I would look so much better in that uniform. And the thing is
that he probably would have. And because I was feeling so self-conscious about, I'd just had
chemo and a course of chemo and my hair was still coming back. I wasn't feeling amazing about myself.
So you're a breast cancer survivor. Yes. A warrior. A warrior. That's it. And we,
and then all these extras were beautiful people. Of course, of course. There were the five of us.
And my other colleagues were beautiful. But there was that insecurity that, and him saying that just
kind of put me back in that, oh, you know, maybe I shouldn't be here. Maybe they should have got
this, like this beautiful young man. And he's an extra and you're an actual pilot.
That's right. I know. I know. Silly, hey. Yeah. Well, I think imposter syndrome is silly. It's
a silly part of us. We don't necessarily need it, but it's there. And it's interesting to talk about
how it shows up because it shows up with us focusing on failure rather than focusing on what we
need to do, the steps to achieve something. So we then start to become anxious. It can affect our
mental health. And I've even coached people who, when we sit down in our first session, they actually
label themselves as a failure. They say, I am a failure. So it can go as far as really removing
complete, any sense of confidence whatsoever. And they've labeled themselves as a failure.
And then what that does is that they've programmed their subconscious mind, which acts very much like
a robot. You program it. I am a failure. So from then on, all they can do is find evidence of them
failing. Even if they succeed, they'll find something that they didn't do perfectly so that
they can then confirm to themselves that they're a failure. And it can be quite debilitating to
people when they go really down this rabbit hole of imposter syndrome that they label themselves
as a failure. They program their subconscious mind-
By affirming it.
By affirming it, by only looking for things where they can fail. And I know this is a bit different,
but in one of my courses, I talk about how a lot of people, they think that they've got a bad
memory. A bad memory for names, for example. And so they say to people, oh, I've got such a bad
memory for names. So they program their subconscious mind that they're bad at remembering names. So
the next time they meet somebody, they shake somebody's hand and they say, oh, hi, Michael.
How are you? And then after that, their brain goes, Michael, what's Michael? Michael's a name. What
do we know about names? We're no good at names. Oh, okay. Forget about Michael. And so they're
programming themselves for failure. And people who have really taken on board this imposter syndrome,
they spend a lot of their energy programming themselves to fail so that they can be right.
Oh, well, that's right. I think back, there are times when you've failed at something,
not performed as expected. And then you do, you go into this self-sabotage, I'm hopeless at
everything and it becomes almost catastrophizing. It's, oh my goodness, I can't do anything,
which is ridiculous. You can, but yeah, the self-sabotage takes over. So it causes
like a self-fulfilling, not a prophecy, it's not a prophecy, but it becomes self-fulfilling,
doesn't it? It does. It's like when you go skiing. Have you ever gone skiing?
Yes. You sound as competent at it as I am. I didn't ski, I slid down the slopes. But one of
the things they teach you when you're skiing is don't, for example, if you're going through trees,
you don't look at the tree, you look at the gap. Yeah, follow the path.
Yeah, follow the path. You don't look at the car that you want to avoid, you look at the gap to
where you want your car to go. And I remember when I tried snowboarding, I can ski, I'm not a great
skier, but I thought I'd try snowboarding because it looked fun. And the guy said, if you want to
go that way, look that way. If you want to go the other way, look that way. And then I remembered
that from when I was learning to ski because they tell you, look where you want to go, not where
you don't want to go. So with imposter syndrome, if you're focusing on failing, you often fail.
Because if you fear failure, you make more mistakes.
That reminds me, and my former colleagues, if any are listening, will know who I'm talking
about with this person, but there was a Czech captain and for the command course, he would
make you say loudly and with conviction and keep saying it until he was convinced that,
and this is a language warning here.
Should we bring it out or beep it out?
No.
Okay.
You would have to say, I am the meanest motherfucking pilot to ever fly a 737.
Wow.
And you'd have to keep saying it louder and with conviction because none of this,
you're coming up to be a captain, I don't deserve it. And because it's a journey, it is a long
journey and there are times when you may not perform your best, you're human. And that's what
you mentioned to me, it is a human trait.
Yes. Unless you're a sociopath and you don't doubt yourself ever.
Well, that's right. But also to fail or to stumble. And so, yeah, to get rid of that, to out-talk,
out-affirm that I'm a failure with I am the meanest motherfucking pilot to ever fly a 737.
So you're trained to just barge through any imposter syndrome.
That's it.
Barge through any insecurity. I like that. That's interesting. Yeah, I've done a bit of work with
sports psychologists around mindset with regards to sport. So I want to ask you, have you ever
suffered from imposter syndrome? What stories come to mind?
Probably one of the first ones would be I was elected school captain in primary school
and I wasn't a popular person at all at school. I was the nerdy one. I did very well in school
academically, but, and I was also tall, gorky. I was athletic. I ran a lot, but definitely not
popular. And I was voted school captain and people were like, how come you got it when,
you know, the popular girl only became vice captain. And what I found out were, was that
teachers had also voted me in, but it was that real, I won it, I suppose. But then I was why me?
I didn't want to be in the spotlight because I didn't feel like I deserved it. I didn't
feel like I should have been the one up there. Maybe a prefect.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. All right.
How about you?
Well, the first story that comes to mind, actually this was a big moment for me. So you know,
from our very first podcast that I have a background in IT. I'm a nerd, I'm a geek. I used
to train IT and teach it. And so I was working for a company and we were teaching, we were working
in the federal magistrates court and the family court of Australia, teaching the employees there,
their new computer software program. So there's a program called Case Track, which I believe still
exists. And I remember I was told that I was going to have to go into the magic of the
office, the judges, and teach them how to use the computer. And I started to panic, I started to fear
because I'm going to be working with these magistrates, these judges. And I was told
how I was meant to address them. And I can't even remember the words, it's something like
you're wrong or something like that that you would see in movies. And I was getting really nervous.
And I mentioned it to a friend of mine, a mentor, and he said some of the best advice
I've ever received. He looked me square in the eyes and said, guy, you know more than them
in Case Track. They might be a judge, they might be a magistrate, but you know more than
them about what you're going in there to teach them about. And he then said something that was
really powerful, he said, they're human beings. They're just like you. And so that whole fear of
hierarchy, that fear of these people who are at the top of their careers, that fear of
people who are at the top of their career, judges and magistrates, it just completely went away.
And I remember walking into this magistrate's office, just walking straight up to him and
introducing myself, g'day, I'm Guy, instead of your honor, your majesty.
Bowing.
Yeah, I just walked in there. And I remember after that day, I've had imposter syndrome many,
many times since then, but that was the first really big event that taught me something that,
in that situation, I knew more than them. So what was I fearing? If I made a mistake,
they would never know that I made a mistake. And not that I wanted to make mistakes, but I no
longer feared making mistakes, but I didn't fear them because they were human beings and we're all
humans, regardless of what level of success we have. And then that actually helped me.
Even years later, I was working at the prime minister's office as an IT consultant, and they
asked me to go to the prime minister's house here in Sydney at Kirribilli and do some work on his
computer. So this is when John Howard was the prime minister. And so I remember rocking up early
in the morning and they ushered me into the kitchen and his personal chef made me breakfast. And I
thought, oh, this is nice. But then I started to fear that I shouldn't be there, that I didn't
think I was experienced enough. And then whilst I was sitting there having breakfast, I started to
feel nervous. I'm thinking, this is weird. I haven't had these feelings for a little while now.
And again, I was having imposter syndrome. I didn't think I needed to be there. But anyway,
I ended up going into John Howard's office. He wasn't there. I installed some software,
did a few things on his computer, and then his wife came in and I helped her use the computer.
She wanted me to show her how to look at some photos that she received from the president of
the US. And so I walked her through it and she said, oh, thank you very much. She left the room.
I thought that was it. And I was fearing this. Yeah. So yeah, I've had it quite a few times.
Well, I think when the buildup as well, you know, your mind starts, and you know this
more than I do, is it adrenaline and cortisol that increase. And so it almost squeezes out
what I found is that this buildup in your mind, it squeezes out any knowledge that you have and
you start to become blank. Yes. Yeah. And so I had a time when I was learning to fly and
we were doing crosswind landings and I hated them because I didn't know how to do them.
And so I remember one day it was forecast to be windy and my instructor said, okay,
we're going to do crosswind landings until you get it right. And I woke up early and I looked out the
window and there was a breeze and I'm my, you know, I started to get tight in the chest almost and
feel sick and my heartbeat was pounding. Then as I'm driving, like I couldn't eat, I was too nervous.
As I'm driving out to the airport, it seemed to be getting windier and windier, almost like a tornado
and I'm forgetting everything. So I tried to make it as steps that I could just, you know,
interwind, you know, rather to correct, dip the wing, this sort of thing and maintain centerline.
And I forgot all of it. And I turned up to the airport and parked and I'm thinking,
I don't know how to do this. I have never, it's like I've never done it ever.
And I'd been practicing and we went and did it. And I went to the toilet so many times beforehand.
I was so nervous and just thinking, maybe I'm not cut out to be a pilot. Like if I can't do this,
I can only fly when there's no wind. I'll be a fair weather pilot. That's okay with me.
A regular day, isn't it? No wind. That's okay with me. But I was really thinking,
I should not be here. I shouldn't be doing this. Like I'm not cut out to be a pilot, obviously.
We went up and because it was so windy, then it made it really obvious what I should be doing.
And from then on, it clicked. Like when it did click, then I love windy days. So, you know,
it's like, yes, bring it. But it was really, yeah, I was doubting my career choice.
It was funny while you're saying that story, I'm picturing Dorothy
and the cyclone in The Wizard of Oz. And it's getting stronger and stronger and stronger.
That's right. I knew nothing.
Well, that happens when you start to go into that final flight. You lose memory. You lose memory.
And so that's one of the things that your brain does. It's like the shut down parts of your brain
that doesn't need anymore because you're in fight or flight. You need to react, not sit there and
recall instructions. You should be operating from habit. But that's that's the wall shut down
because you're in fight or flight. Yeah, the adrenocorticotropic hormone that's released into
your body and then builds up over time. That's it. I knew that you'd come up with that one.
Yes, I knew it didn't mean some of that stuff. I had similar experiences when I was playing
water polo. So when we were traveling overseas and we're playing against other nations in Italy,
and when I played my worst and that was regrettably, it was often when we weren't in big
competitions. For some reason, I was able to get my mind right in bigger competitions. But when we're
in training camps in places like Italy and Greece and stuff like that, occasionally, and I've
thought about this endlessly, occasionally we'd be playing training matches against Italy and Spain
and different countries. And I'd get into my head and I'd start thinking and I'd start playing bad.
And then when I started playing bad, I'd focus on what the mistakes I was making and then it was
getting worse and I'd play worse and worse. And I remember one tour, I thought, sorry for the
Australian coach, because I'm a goalkeeper and there's always two goalkeepers on tour, but the
other goalkeeper injured himself. So it's now just me. And so I'm playing. But then I injured myself.
I've always had a crook neck from when I was a kid. I was doing a high jump. I missed the mat.
I landed on the ground and I've got a little bone in my neck that decided to go sideways.
Yeah. And so ever since then, if I turn my neck quickly, it just goes out, it kind of locks up.
And so when it locks up, my spine's in pain. I can still move, but anyway, so that happens to me.
And so now I'm playing, I was playing bad, but now I'm playing worse and I'm getting worse and
I'm getting worse. And then I remember during one of the breaks at quarter time, my coach had
changed our tactics to play a press defense instead of a zone defense. And he said, and we're doing
this because you can't even stop a ball. Right. He was getting very frustrated. And rightly so,
because he's got somebody playing in goals who's playing like a third, a fourth grader. Like I was
in the national team and I was playing horrible. I really was. I remember this because I've had
nightmares about it many, many times since. And his frustration came out and he said that. And then
I played even worse because now not only am I beating myself up, he's beating me up. And rightly
so, because I was playing shit. I was really playing terribly. And I remember that because
all I could do was focus on what I was doing wrong, not what I was doing right. And so after that,
I developed this little habit that every time somebody scored a goal against me,
before I'd get the ball out of the back of the goal and throw it back to halfway,
I would replay the scene in my head as if I succeeded, as if I'd saved it.
Wow.
And so before I'd even turn around and grab the ball, because the ball in the back of the net is
failure. What I'd do is I'd replay the scene in my mind. I'd even practice with my body what I
should have done to save the ball, cemented that in. That's what I'd do next time. Grab the ball,
throw it to halfway. And when I started to develop that habit, every time they scored a goal,
I then forgot about it. So the games that I played really badly, I could remember every goal that
they scored. The games that I played well, I couldn't remember a single goal that was scored
against me because I was rewinding my brain, replaying it with a new success story. And that
was one of the things that I used to actually overcome imposter syndromes was not to remember
the failures, to use them as an opportunity to learn. That reminds me, and we were talking
about it on the walk this morning, that so failures are basically the outcome is not as expected.
Yeah, not the desired outcome.
Yeah. And we were talking about there was a business that made, it still makes millions,
billions of dollars, or probably not that was an exaggeration, millions of dollars based on a
failure. Remember 3M?
3M, yeah, the glue. Yeah, yeah. Post-it notes.
Post-it notes are a failure. Well, the post-it notes themselves are not a failure, but the
glue that the person was trying to make didn't stick. So they turned it into post-it notes.
And so yeah, yeah, that was a great story of turning what could have been a failure into a
success story.
That's right. Sorry, that was a little...
No, not at all. Not at all. Have you got any other stories where you suffered from imposter
syndrome?
Yeah, look, I've got many, but one of the things that came to mind was when in a
simulator session, it was a simulator check and I was the first officer and we'd been doing... So
what typically happened was one pilot went first, did a scenario and then to the end to landing,
and then the next pilot redid it from the beginning as well to landing. And the captain
went first on this particular one and he failed. I went next, did the same thing and I passed.
Even though you did exactly the same as well.
That's right. And I came out of there with relief because I'd passed, but feeling like I didn't
deserve it because the captain had failed for the same thing.
So why did the captain fail and you didn't?
Well, it seemed to be a bit of a pattern. And what it was is we found out because
assessing a pilot is also personal preferences come in.
Oh, really?
And I found out this particular check captain, that's right, was failing captains for it,
but not first officers. Don't know the reasoning, but it really set up this thing of I didn't
deserve that. I feel like I shouldn't be here when I was flying and that captain then wasn't
because he'd failed.
So it felt like favoritism almost.
It did. It just was unjust.
So there you go, we found another cause of imposter syndrome, potential favoritism.
That's right. So almost, yeah, well, maybe that just brings to mind there's this thought now
amongst Gen Xers, I suppose, that kids of today get an award or a merit for just showing up.
Yeah. Or even if they don't.
When I played football as a kid, my younger brother got the trophy for best interest every
year. He was a genius and I got the trophy for turning up. It was called the best team man
trophy. And basically they're saying, hey, well done for turning up. You were always there,
but now it's the participation trophy and everyone gets one.
So I wonder what that'll look like down the track.
Well, I've got a theory about it. I think we should have participation trophies for the young kids
just to, you know, hey, well done. And it's an effort trophy that you turned up, but it's an
effort trophy. But we should also give the best and fairest. That's the thing that's missing in
my opinion. I think we need to give kids the trophy for, hey, well done, good effort this season,
to encourage them to come back next year. But the kid who did the best needs to get that trophy
because kids need to learn that life is competition. There is competition everywhere. You
compete for a job, you compete for a girlfriend, you compete for everything. And so it'd be lovely
if we never had to compete, but that's just not the world.
No, no, that's right.
Have you ever had the opposite of imposter syndrome? And I see the opposite of imposter
syndrome as flow, the zone or deep work, they call it. So there's kind of three terms, but
flow, it's where everything just seems to be happening seamlessly. Have you ever had that
situation? Yeah, I love it. It's addictive. So this, again, another captain I flew with,
a beautiful man, and he was an amazing pilot. He also flew by the book. So you turned up to work
and it was a great day. We had a simulator check together. And so I knew what he expected of me.
I knew how he operated. He knew how I operated and also to the book. And so there was that we
were relaxed. There wasn't anxiety. And we just flew like it was a normal day, even though it was
a check and engines were failing or on fire and the whole thing, it was still just a normal day
of flying. So there was no anxiety, no pressure. We even had time to chat, which in a SIM session,
there's none. You're always stressing about what have I forgotten? Is there something I should be
doing? What's coming next? And this was just like, hi, almost like, do you want a coffee?
And we both did really well. We both got fives. But the funny thing was that the check captain said
to me after in the debrief, he goes, oh, Michelle, you were probably smiling too much and laughing a
bit too much. And I don't recall I was laughing, but I may have been because I laugh all the time.
But the, and the captain stood up for me, Chris, and he said, how can you say that when we were,
we, we operated as a perfect crew, you actually awarded us five out of five, both of us and had
made the comment. It was one of the best SIM sessions you've ever seen. And now you're trying
to diminish Michelle's effort by telling her she smiles too much or laugh. And so I was so,
I was so grateful for him. And I did, we felt like we were like super pilots. It was like,
if this is every SIM session, I'm, I'm, you know, captain wonderful sort of thing. And yeah.
Yeah. I think that check captain didn't understand something about humans. When we are relaxed,
when we are enjoying ourselves, when we're even laughing and we feel the ultimate sense of calmness
because of that, we make far fewer mistakes. We can get out of our head. We can, we're just in the
moment we're in flow, like you're experiencing. I don't think he understood humans well enough,
because if I saw somebody smiling, enjoying themselves whilst they're in a simulator and
the engines on fire, I would know that they're in a, in a good head space. But if they're panicky,
yeah, you don't want somebody panicky. I guess what he wants someone to do is take it seriously,
just take it seriously, you know, put a, put a stone, but, but not be scared. But you were,
you were in ultimate flow and I've had a similar experience playing sport. So I told you before
about how I used to play really badly in certain situations. I remember one tournament, we were in
Hungary and we're playing against the top, top nations and we ended up winning. And I,
I, it was the first time we've won a gold medal as the Australian men's team, the women are champions,
they win all the time, but this was our first gold medal internationally. And I remember that
tournament distinctly because I was in flow, I was in the zone, the whole tournament. And like you,
I had a smile on my face. Yeah. Yeah. I was always panicky before, not panicky always,
but I've had tournaments where I've been in flow, but this one, I was in flow the whole tournament.
It's almost like things were happening in slow motion. It's almost like the, the players were
further away from me than what they actually were. And I could see the ball coming to me and I felt
joy because I was in the moment. There was nothing else existing. Time was slowing down. I was
enjoying myself and I was just operating on instinct and habit. And I could almost observe
what was going on rather than being there. That third person sort of thing. Yeah. Yeah. That you
can do in your head. And it was the most enjoyable experience I've ever had playing sport in life.
Really, it's when you're in deep, deep flow and you get out of your head and there's no fear
whatsoever. And because of that, all of the training could just kick in. All my instincts
could kick in and it was, yeah, it was just the most wonderful experience. And we won, we ended
up winning and we walked away with trophies and it was a fantastic feeling. And I wish I'd been
able to bottle that and then straight away apply it forever. But yeah, regrettably the next year,
it wasn't there with me. So it's an interesting thing. And athletes train for it. They aim for
it. We didn't do a, I don't think back then we did enough to focus on getting into that state.
Because I don't think we knew as much as what we do know now.
How can we, like we've discussed this, how you can manage imposter syndrome or avoid it
completely, like if you can avoid it completely. So how do we fix it? Or how do we avoid it? Okay.
Yeah. I've got quite a few ideas that I teach people now and I'm sure you've got some techniques
that you use yourself because you went on to become a very successful captain. And
you had a long career in the aviation industry and it's seemingly that everything you try your
hand at, you're very good at. So the things that I do, the first thing is body language.
And I think we're talking about this in the past in the confidence podcast that we did,
that if you stand confidently, if you walk confidently, if you show confidence in your
body language, and we learned this from Amy Cuddy, the TED Talk podcast, and we learned this from
your body language, and we learned this from Amy Cuddy, the TED Talk that she did, that your body
will then produce the chemicals associated with feeling strong and powerful. But if you show fear
in your body language, your body will then release the adrenocorticotropic hormone, which turns into
the fight or flight, adrenaline and cortisol. And so that's the first thing. So just be very
mindful of your body because when you are feeling fear, you naturally make yourself smaller, you
start to protect yourself, you hunch, you cross your legs, you do all of these things. But if you
stand tall, stand confidently, that's the first thing I'd suggest people do. Just be very, very
conscious of what their body language is saying to themselves. Have you got any tips?
Well, I like affirmations or affirming. So like Captain Pete used to say and get us to say,
but also just doing a catalogue in my mind or on paper of what I've actually achieved,
the qualifications I have, the experience I have, because often we forget it's really easy
to praise somebody else and to tell them how great they are for what they've accomplished.
But for some reason, it's really hard to do it to yourself.
Because we don't want to be arrogant, I guess.
Yeah. And so just that you can do it in private, just the whole thing of, you know, well done,
giving yourself a bit of a high five, which I do physically do and I won't show you now because
we can't see it. Or is it just a clap?
Eddie is a bit up high. Clapping above our head.
Yes. I like that. And you know, just kind of that, you've got this, you've done it, well done,
you know. A bit of self praise.
Yeah, yeah. Which I always found hard to do.
Now the thing I do is, and it's something I teach, is focus on the steps.
Yes. Yeah, just focus on the steps.
Yeah. Focus on what you need to do.
The process. Focus on your routines,
focus on the steps. So LeBron James, Michael Jordan, all of the fabulous basketballers that
I grew up idolizing. I didn't grow up with LeBron James, he's the current champion, but
they all have routines. You see them when they're rocking up to the game. They're all in headphones,
they're listening to the same music, they follow the same routines, and they're focusing on the
steps. Yeah. And so a lot of athletes, they have routines that they follow because it just gets
their mind thinking on what they need to do, not fearing the consequences and that sort of stuff.
So you see that a lot in sport, but in business, in any area of life, if you focus on the steps
required to complete the task, the steps required to do whatever it is you're doing,
then you're focusing on the, not the fear of failing, but you're focusing on how you're
going to get to the outcome you desire. Yeah. So I suppose you could even, you know,
your lucky undies or your special tie or something if you're going into, you know,
do a proposal or whatever you could. I don't know about lucky undies.
You don't have lucky undies? I don't have any lucky undies. No, no, no, no, no, no. I have undies,
not lucky undies. Because I, yeah, one thing I did want to move away from when I was playing sport
was superstition. Yes. That if I didn't, because then if I didn't have the lucky undies with me,
I couldn't succeed. Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah. So I didn't want to rely on things that
were external to me. I only ever wanted to rely on me. And so I did that as well after playing
sport. So instead of then maybe attributing to a physical item, could you do, and I know Tony
Robbins does this, like a power pose. Power pose, body language, yeah, all that sort of stuff.
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I've found it difficult to attribute success to external things because if
those external things weren't there, then I'd be fearful. Yeah. So I like your affirming and
your self-praise stuff. There's another thing that we talk about a lot off the podcast is about
breath work and breathing and the power of breath work. So maybe before, if you're feeling anxiety,
do you box breathing, which is, you know, breathe in for four seconds, hold for four seconds,
out for four seconds, hold for four seconds, in for four. So you're doing that box breathing.
That could be something that people could use to, when the anxiety or the fear is coming up.
And yeah, one process I found that worked for me is also focusing on now. So in a simulator session
for example, you know, blue up, brown down, which was the sky up, yeah, basically. So blue up,
brown down. And it was just focus on where you're at. So, you know, aviate, navigate, communicate. So
basically do what you need to survive, get in a right situation straight up. And that could be,
you know, I'll look at the sky right now. Can I hear the bird singing right now? What's in my hand?
And, you know, having a necklace or a ring or something that you focus on, having something to
just take your mind off that I shouldn't be here and the anxiety that exists then because of that,
just like, no, I'm here, breathe in, breathe out, breathe in, breathe out. Don't forget.
And then, you know, one step at a time. Yeah. I want to kind of like
bring it all back together. Not that we've taken it apart, but I want people to understand what
failure actually is. It's not failure. It's not failure. There's no such thing as failure.
It's learning. Yes. Human beings have to fail to learn. Think about it. When you're a child,
you stand up a thousand times before you can walk. And when we're a kid, we just keep trying,
we just keep trying, keep trying. We stand up, we fall down, we stand up, we fall down.
Because we're seeing all of these other people doing it. Oh, yeah, stand up, fall down. You know,
you've seen children learn to walk. And because they can't think, they don't have the language,
they're not doubting themselves. They're not sitting there going, oh, I'm an imposter,
I can't walk, I shouldn't be a human being. They just keep trying. But as we get older,
when we start to develop an ego, when we start to look at failure, oh, you know, people are going
to think, you know, we start to worry about, yeah, we're worried about what other people are thinking.
We need to change our relationship to failure. There's no such thing. It is just learning. And
every single day we do our best. And every single day we will learn from the previous day because
that's what failure is. It's learning. There's no such thing as failure. So ultimately, to get
rid of imposter syndrome, and I think I finally got rid of it. There are situations where I
lack a bit of confidence every now and then. But I've stopped fearing what other people think
because even when I do fail, there's no such thing as failure. I'm just learning. I'm just learning.
And yeah, I'm not as hard on myself now as what I used to be when I was younger. What about yourself?
I'm aiming.
You're aiming for it. You're still on the journey.
I am still on the journey. Yeah. But not as well as what you did with the goal. I really like what
you were talking about, how you would instead of before you went and collected the ball, you
replayed that situation, but with a success. This is what I now do. If there's something that didn't
go as I wanted it to go, I redo it. And I do it with breathwork. Whilst I'm doing breathwork,
I reimagine it successfully or how I wanted it to play out. And so then in my mind, I'm rewiring,
hardwiring that outcome.
Have we spoken about Life University? No. When my head hits the pillow?
Oh, yes.
Yeah. When my head hits the pillow, I go to Life University. It's a little thing I've been doing
for a long time. I rewind the day, look at how it went, see if there's anything that I could have
done better or that it didn't go the way I wanted it. And then I think, okay, how do I rewire this
in my head? What do I do differently? And then when I go to sleep, my brain is programming myself to
be different in the future. Nice. You like it?
Yeah. Yeah. Cool. I think that is a fantastic...
I just wanted to say, I really appreciate, we really appreciate all of the messages
and emails that we've been receiving about the podcast and some of the topics people
want to hear about and some guests that people want to hear from. It's amazing. Thank you.
Keep them coming, please.
It's lovely. It's lovely to hear from you all. And we've got so many suggestions about topics
people want to learn about, so we will be recording those in the future. Yeah. Cool. Cool. And merch?
Yes. Yes. Yes.
We have merch.
We do. T-shirts and hats.
T-shirts and hats. And it has your fabulous slogan, more dogs on it.
More dogs. We think the world will be a better place with more dogs.
Yeah. Yeah. So how do we finish this podcast up?
Thank you for coming on the journey with us.
Yeah. This is all aboard.
Yeah, it's all aboard. That's right.
Okay. Great to see you again, Michelle.
Thanks, Guy. Bye.
Take care. Bye.
So Michelle, where can they find us?
CaptainAndTheClown.com. Where you'll find links to our websites for
keynote speaking and corporate training. Yes. That's CaptainAndTheClown.com.
Well, that was fun.
That was fun.
You're such a clown.
The clown, Captain. Lady captain.
And who's going to listen to this? Maybe our mums.
Thanks, mum.