1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:06,400 G'day leaders. Today's episode we're talking with the amazing Paddy McDonald, leadership and life coach. 2 00:00:06,400 --> 00:00:12,720 Paddy's a qualified accountant and former executive director and we talked to him about his career and journey to date 3 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:18,160 and his thoughts on humanizing leadership and being your authentic self. Enjoy. 4 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:22,880 Why did it count backwards? Oh no, we're now recording. 5 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:25,440 What? Hello captain. 6 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:27,440 What do I say? 7 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:33,440 Come fly with me, let's fly, let's fly away. 8 00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:37,440 What are we going to talk about? I don't know. 9 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:41,440 So leadership, life and everything else. Yeah. 10 00:00:45,440 --> 00:00:49,440 And we're live. No, we're recording. But we're live with Paddy. 11 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:53,440 Hey Paddy, welcome to the podcast mate. Thank you guys, morning. 12 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:58,640 Nice to see you guys. Yeah, you too. So Paddy, leadership and life coach. 13 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:02,640 But prior to that you had quite an extensive corporate career. 14 00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:06,240 Can you give us a bit of background? Your corporate career? 15 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:09,840 Absolutely. So I guess in my former life I started as an accountant. 16 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:16,640 So when I was 17 straight out of school, went into a public practice role where got to support businesses from all walks of life. 17 00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:22,240 Really like maximize their bottom line. Profitability being the primary focus as an accountant. 18 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:30,240 And that was something I did for about 15, 16 years, which really is like as boring as the stereotype of accounting is. 19 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:34,240 Like I actually got a lot of joy out of it. Really helping people just lit me up. 20 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:43,440 And as I kind of deepened into that, I started to desire to bring a sense of depth to what I was doing. 21 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:50,240 And I decided to go into one company specifically so that I could really support that company on all levels. 22 00:01:50,240 --> 00:01:54,240 Rather than just getting little touch points with lots of different clients. 23 00:01:54,240 --> 00:02:00,240 Okay, so you moved away from looking after lots of clients to working as an executive director of one company. 24 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:06,240 Yeah, that's right. So for a project management firm that were building social infrastructure around Australia. 25 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:09,240 Ended up being the executive director for the operations of that business. 26 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:16,240 So supporting all the different functions, human resources, marketing, technology and obviously finance as well. 27 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:25,240 And to basically give the business the structure so that the people on the ground could deliver service to the highest possible ability. 28 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:32,240 Okay, so you moved from running your own accounting firm to being an executive director, so a senior leader. 29 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:37,240 Pat, what brought about the transition then into what you do now? 30 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:40,240 Yeah, so I guess it was a continuation of that journey. 31 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:47,240 And as much as I really loved and got a lot of fulfillment out of supporting the mission of this company that I believed in so deeply. 32 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:56,240 I started to notice that there were patterns with inside myself and also the other leaders that I worked with that really influenced how our company was performing. 33 00:02:56,240 --> 00:03:00,240 And also I'd seen in the companies I've been supporting previously. 34 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:12,240 And noticing that a lot of how we show up as leaders is influenced by our own emotional integration and our own ability to really show up from a place of presence. 35 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:19,240 And having done our own inner self-development work. 36 00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:28,240 And so the more that I was able to bring that out in myself and the people around me, the more that I could see there were actually results coming out for the business. 37 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:35,240 And following that thread, it really just felt like a natural evolution to start to focus on that rather than the business element. 38 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:43,240 Start to focus on people being the best versions of themselves and then naturally trusting that that will flow into the results for the businesses they lead. 39 00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:58,240 Yeah, that's great because part of the leadership is that the leader, it's being able to bring out the best in those around you and being self-aware as well. 40 00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:01,240 How did you become self-aware in that way? 41 00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:05,240 Have you always been self-aware or has there been a journey? 42 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:08,240 Was there something - a catalyst to start this? 43 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:19,240 Yeah, definitely a big journey that is very much still continuing. And for me, it was something that I went on on my own outside of business and had a bit of a spiritual journey. 44 00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:27,240 But then actually noticing that really spirituality is best reflected in the way that we're relating to the people around us. 45 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:40,240 And so with business being a function of teamwork and communication, the more that I was able to improve my communication skills and ability to show up authentically as myself, 46 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:51,240 but also support others around me to be their best versions of themselves, the more that I found my spiritual journey continued, but also we got the results that we wanted to get as well. 47 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:59,240 So you've been a leader, a senior leader, an executive leader, and now you're a leadership coach. I'm sure we've got a lot to delve into here. 48 00:04:59,240 --> 00:05:05,240 So I'm just going to jump into a question I ask all of our guests. We've had one so far, you're the second. 49 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:09,240 I'm so glad that you're here, but we're going to be asking this question many, many times. 50 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:14,240 A leader is somebody that you follow. A manager is somebody who has been given authority. 51 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:18,240 So a leader is somebody you follow and you choose to follow them because they lead by example. 52 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:24,240 And so we talk about the characteristics that make somebody the sort of person other people would be inspired to follow. 53 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:30,240 So thinking about that, what would make somebody the sort of person that you'd be inspired to follow? 54 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:34,240 Or what do you see as a very important character trait in a leader? 55 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:41,240 Yeah, beautiful. Look, firstly, I wanted to say that I think that everybody is actually a leader in their own lives, first and foremost. 56 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:53,240 And so just distinguishing that between someone who's been given the opportunity and the privilege of leading others by nature of the role in the company. 57 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:59,240 And as you've identified, we wear different hats when we're a leader in a company. We may be a manager as well. 58 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:02,240 We may actually have our own role in delivering something, too. 59 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:10,240 Like when I was the executive director, I still did a lot of the work in the financial side of things because that was my expertise. 60 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:19,240 But when I'm wearing the leader hat, like what I look for in other leaders is someone who's actually taking leadership of their own lives, first and foremost, is taking responsibility. 61 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:31,240 Because there can be a temptation as humans and we all do it to really project any issues or things that we're judging outside of ourselves. 62 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:36,240 And it's easy to blame external circumstances for our problems. 63 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:47,240 But actually someone who's willing to take responsibility for their own challenges is someone who I can trust because I can see that they're not going to put that on me. 64 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:52,240 They're going to actually like really do the work to try and solve it themselves. 65 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:55,240 So they're accountable for how they turn up as a leader every day. 66 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:56,240 Yeah, 100%. 67 00:06:56,240 --> 00:06:57,240 So they start with themselves. 68 00:06:57,240 --> 00:06:58,240 100%. 69 00:06:58,240 --> 00:06:59,240 I like that. I like that. Yeah. 70 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:06,240 So rather than focusing on projecting, like you say, our own stuff externally, you're working on your own stuff internally. 71 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:10,240 You're turning up the best possible version of you so you can be a great leader. 72 00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:11,240 Yeah, that's it. 73 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:20,240 So then delving into it, what sort of character traits would you like to see in a leader besides starting on themselves and being authentic? 74 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:22,240 Yeah, look, I think it's kind of a paradox. 75 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:26,240 There are two traits that come to mind instantly at opposite ends of the spectrum. 76 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:37,240 One is a sense of like radical authenticity, like really being who they are at their core and not putting on a facade, putting on a mask, really like owning their own expression. 77 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:41,240 That might be bringing their vulnerabilities to the table, for example. 78 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:48,240 And the other side of the spectrum is having a deep sense of awareness and sensitivity for what the whole collective needs. 79 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:58,240 So, you know, an archetype I play with sometimes is that of the king or the queen, and this is someone who, in the healthy version of this, is actually considering what does the whole kingdom need. 80 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:09,240 And that includes ourselves. But it also just makes sure that we're not neglecting any particular parts of the kingdom that might later come up and bite us in the backside. 81 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:11,240 So looking after the collective. 82 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:12,240 Correct. 83 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:14,240 So that says like you're supporting everyone. 84 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:16,240 Empowering. Empowering, for sure. 85 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:19,240 What does that mean? What does empowering and supporting mean? 86 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:39,240 Yeah, so it's really like supporting everybody to be their best selves and can be a tricky one as a leader because I know for myself there's a temptation to help other people be the best version of what I think they could be rather than the best version of what they are in their core. 87 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:51,240 And so, like, I guess one way I can kind of explain this is there's, everyone knows like a corporate kind of hierarchy, like an organizational chart that's often in the shape of a pyramid. 88 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:52,240 Top down. 89 00:08:52,240 --> 00:09:00,240 Top down, yeah. And I think like all the org charts I've seen tend to be in that pyramid kind of shape. 90 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:17,240 I think like one of the most powerful things we can do as leaders is actually flip that and really rather than seeing ourselves at the top and everyone else supporting our vision, it's actually seeing ourselves at the bottom supporting the whole organization and team that we're leading. 91 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:33,240 And what that means is that we're actually empowering everybody to be the highest expression of who they are in their roles, because we've brought them in for a reason, right? We've brought them in to be the person that they are to fit the role that we've designed for them. 92 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:37,240 And who are we to say what the best way is to do that? Right? 93 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:57,240 And so kind of once they're in, like, we can coach, we can empower, but when we're at the bottom of the pyramid rather than the top, we're actually harnessing the power of the whole team, rather than trying to like drive it all ourselves. 94 00:09:57,240 --> 00:10:13,240 And it's easy, it actually also highlights the fact that being a leader is a huge responsibility. And I think it also acknowledges that like leaders carry a lot of weight. And I think it's important as a leader to be humble enough to realize that we need support as well. 95 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:28,240 Yeah, we can see that by flipping the pyramid on upside down, you can actually see that support that's required both from, well now the bottom, up to the team. 96 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:56,240 And we have a, I suppose what we've spoken about previously, the role of a leader is to encourage, support, mentor, coach your team so that you yourself become redundant, almost as a leader, not in a job sense, but you've supported and encouraged your team so much that they go beyond their own expectations of greatness to something that they didn't even know about. 97 00:10:56,240 --> 00:11:06,240 And it may actually be greater than you. Yeah, fully agree. Couldn't agree more. I think that's a great way to describe it. Like I think any leader should really be trying to make themselves redundant. 98 00:11:06,240 --> 00:11:23,240 Yes. Because a leader that's self assured and knows they have value will find new ways to add value. And I think like when I think a leader is also judged on their team, a leader is not judged on just their own output, a leader is judged on the team's output. 99 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:32,240 And so if the team is actually doing more as a group, the leader now is freed up to find those new and dynamic ways to add value as well. 100 00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:42,240 I think that's the pitfall. So a lot of leaders are fearful of that because their performance is measured by the performance of the team, which then leads to micromanaging, which is the exact opposite of what you're saying. 101 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:54,240 You're saying trust, empower and coach your team to be better than they think they could possibly be, to be better than you even so that you can then lead from the front and be more strategic. 102 00:11:54,240 --> 00:12:01,240 But have you ever seen a leader do the opposite where they're fearful of letting go and so they start to micromanage? All the time. And I've done it as well. 103 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:08,240 I just want to acknowledge here that there's like, this is not about like there's some people that are good leaders, there's some people that are bad leaders. 104 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:19,240 This is like we all have these traits of times when we are driven by fear and we try to over control because we don't have the trust that things are going to unfold. 105 00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:27,240 And there's times when we really just are able to surrender a bit more and just allow the team to really work its magic. 106 00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:34,240 I like that. So how can we show that we trust people? How can we empower people? What are your thoughts on that? 107 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:40,240 Yeah, great question. Great question. Yeah, because actions definitely speak louder than words for sure. 108 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:45,240 And I think like one of the most important things as a leader is to really lead with that energy. 109 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:54,240 And what I mean by that is like people, people will follow like what they see and what they feel rather than what they're told. 110 00:12:54,240 --> 00:13:12,240 And so if people want to feel empowered, I guess like it's about actually showing up as someone who's like being empowered ourselves and simultaneously like just really encouraging that individuality that's coming through them. 111 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:25,240 And so when someone's doing something differently to how I want them to do it, taking that pause, taking that breath and going like, OK, maybe, maybe this is better than I would have done it. 112 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:34,240 Like that could be a possibility. My ego doesn't want me to believe that. But like just actually allowing and seeing where it goes can be a powerful, powerful tool. 113 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:51,240 Just having the confidence to let go and let the person find the destination that you've set for them. So true autonomy, which Dan Pink in his famous TED Talk talks about that, that people want autonomy, mastery and purpose. 114 00:13:51,240 --> 00:14:01,240 But he says that radical autonomy, letting them get towards the destination. You just set the destination and give them the freedom to go there. So you subscribe to that sort of model. 115 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:07,240 Definitely, definitely. And I think it's this real coming back to the concept that everybody is a leader. 116 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:18,240 Like imagine leading a team of leaders, right? A team of leaders where everybody is really taking responsibility for their role and not just their role, but the success of the whole team. 117 00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:24,240 And that's not to say that everyone needs to be like in a management position or like in a position of power. 118 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:26,240 Cooks in the kitchen. 119 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:38,240 But leadership is a concept of responsibility of like, I care about where this is going and I'm going to, I'm aligned to the vision and I'm going to do my unique task to make that happen. 120 00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:58,240 Guy, you've spoken about this before where you met somebody and the happiest person, he was a cleaner and he knew his role was for the greater purpose of the ultimate getting man into space or whatever it was. 121 00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:00,240 Oh, that was JFK. 122 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:12,240 That was me. I spoke about a cleaner. 123 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:32,240 That whole concept of regardless of your role, it's being empowered that you are part of the greater team to get the goal, whatever that final goal is happening and you do your role regardless of how menial it may appear to others. 124 00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:40,240 You are the CEO of that role and you absolutely own it and do it to your best ability. 125 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:44,240 If I could tell you Pat that story because I love this story if you don't mind. 126 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:45,240 I've meshed them. 127 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:46,240 No, you haven't. I love it. 128 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:47,240 We'll separate them. 129 00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:58,240 The one that you were talking about with regards to getting a man on the moon, JFK was very famous for walking through a NASA corridor one day, saw a guy in the corridor and said, oh, excuse me, sir, what do you do? 130 00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:02,240 And the man looked at him and said, Mr. President, I'm helping to put a man on the moon. 131 00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:03,240 Wow. 132 00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:04,240 He was a janitor. 133 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:05,240 Wow. 134 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:17,240 I was doing a team building workshop and I insulted somebody and I didn't realize I'd insulted them until later on in the day. 135 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:24,240 So you're going to see my immaturity at the time. 136 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:28,240 So I met this guy and he was the happiest person I've ever met, Pat. 137 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:33,240 And he was in a team of people and he was a cleaner. 138 00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:41,240 Right. So these were people who looked after large buildings in the CBD and he was the cleaner and he was on this team building day. 139 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:45,240 And I took him aside and I said, why are you so happy? 140 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:46,240 Can you hear the insult? 141 00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:48,240 Because you're a cleaner. 142 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:50,240 It was the worst thing I've ever said to a human being. 143 00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:53,240 That night when I reflected on it, I thought, are you? 144 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:56,240 I call myself all sorts of names. 145 00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:57,240 Yeah. 146 00:16:57,240 --> 00:16:59,240 But the answer I got from him was just amazing. 147 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:01,240 He said, why wouldn't I be happy? 148 00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:06,240 I travel on the train for a couple of hours every morning to come to work. 149 00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:18,240 And I look out the window and I think about my family and I think about my children and I come to work and I make this place a beautiful building. 150 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:20,240 And I'm good at what I do. 151 00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:26,240 And while I'm doing it, I can think about my soccer and my family in Argentina. 152 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:29,240 And every month I get to send them money to help them. 153 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:34,240 And they looked me dead in the eyes with a serious face and said, you tell me why I wouldn't be happy. 154 00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:37,240 And I'd met the guy who had clued into life. 155 00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:39,240 And that was the most beautiful thing. 156 00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:40,240 And he was a leader in his role. 157 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:47,240 He turned up to work, cleaned the building, cleaned the bathrooms, cleaned the windows and he did it to the best of his ability. 158 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:50,240 And that lesson will stay with me for the rest of my life. 159 00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:54,240 Just reflecting what you were saying, he was a leader in his position. 160 00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:59,240 I guess, I don't know what his leaders were like around him, but he'd chosen to be a leader. 161 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:00,240 Yeah, I love that. 162 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:01,240 I love that. 163 00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:07,240 And I think it really speaks to the fact that being in a leadership position is not what everybody wants. 164 00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:16,240 And I personally catch myself sometimes thinking like that because I want to be in a leadership position that my team all wants that. 165 00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:19,240 And I noticed how that wasn't true. 166 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:27,240 And along with that comes the subconscious belief that being a leader is better than not being a leader. 167 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:35,240 And I feel like the example you've just given is a great example of how fulfillment doesn't come from success. 168 00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:47,240 Fulfillment comes from like a moment to moment experience of life and choosing to show up in that with like full presence and gratitude and joy like this man was doing. 169 00:18:47,240 --> 00:19:00,240 And I think it's a great thing to remember because when we're leading our teams, it's about helping them be the best version of themselves, 170 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:06,240 not about trying to help them ascend through the ranks or anything like that. 171 00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:09,240 It's just supporting this man to have that life. 172 00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:19,240 Like helping him to really like have the life where he can do those things, connect with his family, like be in the moment. 173 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:28,240 When you were saying about your energy leading with energy, I can think immediately comes to mind people I've known or met, 174 00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:37,240 even past in a building that had this presence and this energy and you can't help but smile and even walk a little taller when you're around them. 175 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:42,240 And so you find yourself drawn to them. You want to hang out with them. It doesn't matter what they do. 176 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:47,240 You may not even know what they do. It's just this you feel this real connection. 177 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:55,240 And I must say, I feel that when I'm around you, you have this energy. So can you speak to that? 178 00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:59,240 I don't know if we're asking too personal question, but how do you turn out the way you turn up? 179 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:04,240 Because it is there is like a power and energy behind you. 180 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:08,240 Thank you. Firstly, pleasure. Yeah, let me just feel into that. 181 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:19,240 So I guess like like I really prioritize my state. I prioritize like my energy. 182 00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:30,240 So like preparing for this podcast, the hour before this, 10 years ago, I would have spent like reviewing notes and like trying to like get all like the words right. 183 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:34,240 Actually, what I did was when I sat by the river and got into a state of meditation, 184 00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:43,240 because like for me, being in a state of presence is more important than like having it all figured out because I trust that what's meant to come up will come up. 185 00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:50,240 And any preparation I did do for this, like is out the window now. Like that's like that might not even be spoken about. 186 00:20:50,240 --> 00:21:04,240 So just I think like for me, the biggest thing that's helped me in life is just facing it's actually is going to sound really weird. 187 00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:14,240 And what I'm going to say is that building a relationship with death has been the biggest thing that shifted my life. 188 00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:27,240 And by death, I mean like allowing my identity to die and allowing any sense of like feeling like I have it figured out, feeling like I've got it under control, 189 00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:34,240 just dropping all that and just being in the moment and trusting that whatever comes up is what's meant to come up. 190 00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:38,240 I like that. You're still a very young man. You're thinking about death early. 191 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:44,240 I like the effect it's had on you if that's what's happening. I like that. 192 00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:49,240 Would you say that was like an ego dip or you're looking at the whole? 193 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:52,240 Yeah, I think they're related. I think they're related. 194 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:59,240 So when we realize that we're all eventually going to die, like it makes us really consider why we're here. 195 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:07,240 Why we're here if not to actually connect and like feel love for fellow humans and for the planet and for the animals in the world. 196 00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:11,240 Why are we here if we're not meant to just be living in a state of joy? 197 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:15,240 And that's more important to me now than any outcomes or successes. 198 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:16,240 I like that. 199 00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:22,240 And paradoxically, that's actually allowed so much magic to come up in my life. 200 00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:29,240 It's very much like the Tibetans. The Tibetans have got a culture where they're very connected to death. 201 00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:33,240 So very early on in a child's life, they learn about death and they don't fear it. 202 00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:40,240 They see it as a reminder that life is to be lived, as you've just said, to turn up authentically and be the best leader you can. 203 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:47,240 And the concept that I think comes from, like I build a relationship with through Buddhism and meditation is around attachment. 204 00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:57,240 And so, for example, bringing it back to a more practical thing, we might be attached to how our company performs, for example. 205 00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:04,240 But realizing that one day this company is going to end might be a thousand years in the future, but like it's not permanent. 206 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:09,240 So like it might feel like the biggest issue in the world in the moment. 207 00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:22,240 And that's so valid. But taking a bigger perspective and just like relaxing a bit into it can help not only our experience of being in business be a lot more easeful and joyous, 208 00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:29,240 but actually can help those results come better because we're not trying to force things that are meant to be. 209 00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:32,240 I like that because I'm going to piece this together for me. 210 00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:33,240 Yeah, please. 211 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:40,240 Maybe I'll find the people as well. So you started out as an accountant. So very much it's about profit. It's about numbers. 212 00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:47,240 But now you're saying that you're very interested in getting the things out of the way, the ego things, 213 00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:53,240 the personal things that may stop you from being able to achieve those sort of profits. 214 00:23:53,240 --> 00:24:00,240 So you're looking at it from a very holistic perspective now rather than just a purely numbers and business and data perspective. 215 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:02,240 You're bringing in the human element. 216 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:07,240 Yeah, which is the best metaphor I can probably give for it is that of a tree. 217 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:13,240 And so it's really acknowledging that like those numbers and business results are important. 218 00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:18,240 They're definitely important. And if we think of that as like the fruits of the tree, they're the fruits of our labor. 219 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:25,240 Like we want to get those results. But those fruits of the tree are inextricably linked to the branches. 220 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:31,240 And the branches are all the different ways that comes out. 221 00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:39,240 Right. The trunk of the trees is our own sense of who we are. It's our why. It's our mission. 222 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:46,240 It's our solid sense of self and like being like really strong in knowing who we are. 223 00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:52,240 And then the roots of the tree are the concepts like spirituality and emotional awareness and self-love. 224 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:56,240 And really the roots of the tree are what makes the whole tree healthy. 225 00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:59,240 So if the roots of the tree are healthy, the fruits will just naturally grow. 226 00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:04,240 You know, you don't need to go and like you don't water the fruits, do you? You water the roots. 227 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:09,240 Yeah. And then but the fruits are important because they hold the seeds for future trees. 228 00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:12,240 So the whole thing is interconnected. 229 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:21,240 But for me, I personally find the most long term value in focusing on the roots and just trusting that everything else will grow organically. 230 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:25,240 That's great. 231 00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:28,240 You touched on animals before. 232 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:29,240 Yeah. 233 00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:44,240 So what you're saying, and I've had conversations with you before, your relationship with animals and the animal world kingdom nature and taking leadership lessons from them. 234 00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:47,240 Can you explain a little bit more what you mean by that? 235 00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:50,240 And I want to hear the story about Dingo. 236 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:56,240 Yeah, look, I feel like as leaders and as humans, we can take lessons from anything. 237 00:25:56,240 --> 00:26:04,240 Right. And ultimately, if you just trace it back, we are part of nature. 238 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:07,240 Humans are one of the forms of animals on this planet. 239 00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:15,240 And there are so many other animals out there that have lessons that we can listen to and receive guidance from. 240 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:27,240 The Dingoes for me are so interesting to study because as an Australian, they're the example of the apex predator. 241 00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:35,240 So if we think of it like the organizational chart of Australia, the Dingo is the leader of the whole ecosystem. 242 00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:42,240 And actually, like having spoken to some experts on Dingoes and having spent a lot of time volunteering at a Dingo sanctuary, 243 00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:47,240 the Dingoes actually consider the whole ecosystem in how they operate. 244 00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:57,240 And so they'll actually manage the populations of the animals that are directly under slash above them in the pyramid. 245 00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:00,240 And if there's an overpopulation, then they'll bring that down. 246 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:04,240 If there's an underpopulation, they'll actually protect those animals as well. 247 00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:10,240 And it's interesting because at the moment, we've got a policy and a culture of seeing them as pests. 248 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:12,240 And we've removed them from the ecosystem. 249 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:18,240 And it's actually had dramatic effects where kangaroo numbers have exploded, which has led to overgrazing, 250 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:23,240 has led to soil degradation, deforestation, all of these problems. 251 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:30,240 And feral cats and foxes have also exploded, which is actually taking more livestock than the Dingoes would ever have taken in the first place. 252 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:32,240 So now she's got a way of balancing things out. 253 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:38,240 But then we interject our thoughts on it and start to do things that then put it out of balance. 254 00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:44,240 But the Dingoes are, I guess, the kings and queens of our environment. 255 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:46,240 I believe so, yeah. I believe so. 256 00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:53,240 And I think we actually treating them in that way will allow us as humans to actually bring that into our lives as well. 257 00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:59,240 And if we can model our own way of living and organizations on nature, 258 00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:10,240 then I think we'll find a much more harmonious balance and way that we can build sustainable businesses that last lifetimes. 259 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:12,240 That's deep. 260 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:19,240 Now resonating with that model, I like it that you see yourself as creating an ecosystem. 261 00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:20,240 Yes, yes. 262 00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:25,240 Where all areas in the business are functioning to their peak. 263 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:26,240 Yes, yeah. 264 00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:30,240 But you don't have, you know, you're not culling certain areas. 265 00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:35,240 I could imagine if you culled your sales team because they were overpopulated, then two years down the track, 266 00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:38,240 you don't have enough coming down your sales funnel. 267 00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:41,240 Yeah, yeah, OK. Sorry. I'm just trying to get my head around that analogy. 268 00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:43,240 It's a beautiful analogy for leadership, isn't it? 269 00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:47,240 Yeah. And I think it really comes down to as well, like, why are you doing what you're doing as a leader? 270 00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:52,240 Like, are you building a legacy? Are you building something that's going to stand the test of time? 271 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:57,240 Because if you are, you need to think, play the long game, you need to really think about like, 272 00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:03,240 what's going to have all of the downstream effects that you're going to have? 273 00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:11,240 And for me, when I start to think super long, it gets way too complicated to try and control it in terms of the actual specifics. 274 00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:16,240 And so what I come back to is principles, which is values as well. 275 00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:22,240 And so that value of harmony, balance, these kind of things that are so important in nature, 276 00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:25,240 I feel like is a great example for us to follow as leaders as well. 277 00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:31,240 Yeah, I like that. I talk a lot about how businesses will often have a list of values on the wall, 278 00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:39,240 but very little, I guess, follow up with regards to how they not enforce them, but encourage them and make sure. 279 00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:43,240 So one of the things I love talking about, and we're going to do a whole podcast on this in the future, 280 00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:49,240 is that every organization I have ever worked with has innovation as a core value. 281 00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:54,240 But it's the leadership behavior that stops it. And so I've got a few examples. We won't go into it now. 282 00:29:54,240 --> 00:30:06,240 But how, as a leader, can you make sure that your organization is encouraging and living those values? 283 00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:10,240 Living them yourself, firstly, is the obvious answer. 284 00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:11,240 Setting the example. 285 00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:14,240 I actually think that's the only answer. 286 00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:15,240 I like that. 287 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:21,240 Yeah. I feel like if you're embodying it as a leader, it will naturally emanate out to the people around you, 288 00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:26,240 and then they will embody it. And because they won't feel like they've been manipulated into doing it, 289 00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:31,240 they'll just like, they'll trust you and want to follow you into battle. 290 00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:36,240 And so they'll just actually model their behavior on you because they respect you. 291 00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:42,240 And then because they're doing that, the people that are following them will do the same. 292 00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:44,240 And this might not be an overnight thing. 293 00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:50,240 So it's why it's hard actually to have the courage to do it because we want the quick results. 294 00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:56,240 But it's the only thing that works long term is just starting. Any change comes from within, right? 295 00:30:56,240 --> 00:31:01,240 Mahatma Gandhi, be the change you want to see in the world. It all starts from within. 296 00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:02,240 And so, yeah, that's the answer. 297 00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:04,240 Walking the walk, not just talking the talk. 298 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:06,240 100%. Yeah. 299 00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:14,240 So as a leadership coach, how do you work with your clients? How do you help your clients? 300 00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:16,240 What do you bring to that engagement? 301 00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:22,240 Yeah. So coming back to that metaphor of the tree, I help leaders water the roots. 302 00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:31,240 So there's things that are often under the surface that we don't have awareness of that are actually controlling everything we do. 303 00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:36,240 Maybe they're showing up in ways that are just subtly affecting our relating, 304 00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:44,240 whether it's with our team members or with our partners or with the people we're reporting into. 305 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:50,240 If we've got these shadows that we haven't addressed or faced, 306 00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:58,240 then they might come out in a sense of irritability or us trying to over-manipulate the situation. 307 00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:03,240 And so if we think about someone working with a team member, 308 00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:09,240 if I haven't fully developed a sense of safety and security with him inside myself, 309 00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:13,240 I might actually be trying to see my team member struggling with something. 310 00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:16,240 And I think that they need to be rescued. 311 00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:24,240 I need to take things off their plate so that I can do it for them because they're not able to do it. 312 00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:34,240 But when I actually realize that I'm perfect as I am and so is this other person in my team, 313 00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:44,240 then that actually allows me to show up in a way that really helps everything around me blossom naturally. 314 00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:52,240 So I personally feel like focusing on our own emotional health really flows into all of our interactions. 315 00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:58,240 And what is business other than a set of human connections and interactions? 316 00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:08,240 So whilst communication is one of the core skills to work on, all communication comes from our own emotional health as well. 317 00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:14,240 So working on the roots of any issue is what I find to be important for leaders. 318 00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:21,240 I like that. So you're helping them address how they turn up when somebody's struggling, how they turn up. 319 00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:25,240 Self-responsibility. Because it's so easy to be triggered, right? 320 00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:31,240 When someone else is having a reaction, it can be easy for me to feel like it's about me. 321 00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:37,240 It's not about me. It's just they're having a reaction and I can hold the space for it, but I don't need to fix it. 322 00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:42,240 So you're giving them skills and it sounds like a different mindset to be calm under pressure to be composed, 323 00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:48,240 which again is something that's vital in leadership. If the leader is composed, the team is going to be composed. 324 00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:58,240 Yeah, okay. That's it. So what transitions have you seen with some of your clients? What have you noticed? 325 00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:02,240 You don't have to obviously name names, but what sort of successes have you seen? 326 00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:11,240 How have you been able to move somebody into a different mindset or give them different skills as a leader? 327 00:34:11,240 --> 00:34:21,240 Yeah, beautiful question. So one example of give is a client who was having relationship issues actually, 328 00:34:21,240 --> 00:34:30,240 and that was causing them to just be quite scattered when they showed up at work because all our life is interconnected. 329 00:34:30,240 --> 00:34:37,240 And even if we feel like we're putting things to one side, it can actually like energetically, we're not going to be our best selves. 330 00:34:37,240 --> 00:34:44,240 And people feel that. And so when we dug into that relationship issue, it actually turned out to be related to something from their childhood. 331 00:34:44,240 --> 00:34:49,240 So something that they'd not even really been aware of for decades. 332 00:34:49,240 --> 00:34:56,240 And by going back and like readdressing that and like seeing that situation in a new light, 333 00:34:56,240 --> 00:35:06,240 they were able to like love that part of themselves that had been suppressed for so long and helped that person really feel the grief 334 00:35:06,240 --> 00:35:15,240 and the anger as well that came from that and the self-judgment and start to bring a sense of self-love and compassion to that, 335 00:35:15,240 --> 00:35:21,240 which then enabled them to show up in their relationship in a way that actually brought a lot of harmony to that. 336 00:35:21,240 --> 00:35:27,240 And then by having more harmony in their relationship, then naturally they showed up as a better leader 337 00:35:27,240 --> 00:35:33,240 because they weren't like distracted by this important part of their life. 338 00:35:33,240 --> 00:35:40,240 An accountant who helps save marriages and create better leaders. I love this. 339 00:35:40,240 --> 00:35:43,240 The journey that you've been on has been quite extraordinary. 340 00:35:43,240 --> 00:35:53,240 Starting out as an accountant, becoming, having your own accounting firm, working as an executive director and now finally helping people be leaders. 341 00:35:53,240 --> 00:35:54,240 I feel like I'm just at the beginning. 342 00:35:54,240 --> 00:36:01,240 Yeah, but the journey has been quite amazing. I look forward to hearing more about what you do in the future. 343 00:36:01,240 --> 00:36:04,240 Patty, how can people find you? 344 00:36:04,240 --> 00:36:09,240 Yeah, so best way is Instagram or LinkedIn. I'm sure you'll put that in the show notes. 345 00:36:09,240 --> 00:36:10,240 Yeah, absolutely. 346 00:36:10,240 --> 00:36:17,240 People can reach out. I love connecting with people. So if anyone wants to shoot me a message and start a conversation, please feel free. 347 00:36:17,240 --> 00:36:23,240 Hosting a retreat in a couple of months in June called The Integrated King. It's actually a men's work retreat. 348 00:36:23,240 --> 00:36:24,240 Can you tell us more about that? 349 00:36:24,240 --> 00:36:29,240 People can reach out and have a conversation. But at a higher level, it's about really what we've spoken about here. 350 00:36:29,240 --> 00:36:37,240 So it is about leadership, it's self-leadership, first and foremost. And that will then flow into all areas of their life. 351 00:36:37,240 --> 00:36:48,240 So integration for me, like really embodying or bringing in all parts of ourselves so that we can show up as our higher selves is the intention of this retreat. 352 00:36:48,240 --> 00:37:02,240 And I also do one-on-one coaching. So that means if any leaders out there would like support really just harmonizing their own experience of life, then I'd love to have a conversation. 353 00:37:02,240 --> 00:37:19,240 Well, speaking personally for any leaders listening, that every leader listening, that when you spend time with Patty, time stands still. It's just this cocoon of safe safety. 354 00:37:19,240 --> 00:37:40,240 And you really feel connected. So it's amazing. And every conversation I have with you, I walk away feeling like I've learned something, not only for leadership, for my work, for self-sense, but my whole life and my family. 355 00:37:40,240 --> 00:37:47,240 And just this buzz. I'm really feeling empowered every time I walk away from spending time with you. 356 00:37:47,240 --> 00:37:48,240 I appreciate that. 357 00:37:48,240 --> 00:37:50,240 I concur. I concur. 358 00:37:50,240 --> 00:37:51,240 I appreciate that. 359 00:37:51,240 --> 00:37:57,240 Any last words on leadership, life or anything else? Because that's our tagline. 360 00:37:57,240 --> 00:38:03,240 Life, leadership and everything else. 361 00:38:03,240 --> 00:38:16,240 Yeah, I think just really, really tuning into why you're doing what you're doing. Like we have one life, right? Maybe more. But as we know it, we have one life. 362 00:38:16,240 --> 00:38:18,240 In this form. 363 00:38:18,240 --> 00:38:33,240 Yeah. Let's be conscious of actually how we show up and what we want that to be about. And for me, my values are things like humility, love, gratitude. And I try to really make that the anchor for everything I do. 364 00:38:33,240 --> 00:38:54,240 And so just encouraging people to find their own form of that. What's life actually about? And just go on the journey of deepening, bringing that into every action, every conversation, because leadership is not about these massive world changing projects or outcomes. 365 00:38:54,240 --> 00:39:04,240 Leadership is about the moment to moment way we show up. And the accumulation of those over a lifetime is what makes a leader really powerful. 366 00:39:04,240 --> 00:39:05,240 That's beautiful. 367 00:39:05,240 --> 00:39:10,240 I love it. Patty McDonald, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast. 368 00:39:10,240 --> 00:39:11,240 Absolute pleasure. 369 00:39:11,240 --> 00:39:14,240 Thank you for what you're doing. Yeah, love it. 370 00:39:14,240 --> 00:39:15,240 Thank you so much. 371 00:39:15,240 --> 00:39:21,240 Thanks, Patty. 372 00:39:21,240 --> 00:39:39,240 This podcast is brought to you by New Memory, providing professional development training to a global audience for over 20 years. New Memory specializes in leadership development programs, as well as time management, communication, presentation skills, customer centricity, and much more. 373 00:39:39,240 --> 00:39:54,240 Help your staff become their best self. Download the course catalog from newmemory.com.au and let them exceed your staff training objectives. That's newmemory.com.au 374 00:39:54,240 --> 00:39:55,240 Well that was fun. 375 00:39:55,240 --> 00:39:57,240 That was fun. 376 00:39:57,240 --> 00:39:58,240 You're such a clown. 377 00:39:58,240 --> 00:40:02,240 I'm a lady captain. 378 00:40:02,240 --> 00:40:04,240 And who's going to listen to this? 379 00:40:04,240 --> 00:40:05,240 Maybe our mums. 380 00:40:05,240 --> 00:40:09,240 Maybe our mums.