1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:06,120 Hello, leaders. Welcome to Captain and the Clown. In this episode, we had the pleasure 2 00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:14,380 of talking to Ben Balk, the founder and CEO of Kindicare. Ben is a disruptor who has changed 3 00:00:14,380 --> 00:00:19,460 the way people find childcare and jobs in the sector and turning the early learning 4 00:00:19,460 --> 00:00:25,060 sector on its head. We discuss how COVID was the catalyst for starting Kindicare and the 5 00:00:25,060 --> 00:00:30,520 secrets behind such a quick journey from idea to inception. Later in the podcast, we discuss 6 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:36,600 leadership and decision making. We also discuss the challenges of a startup and insights into 7 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:41,120 where recruitment goes wrong and much more on leadership. We'd love your feedback on 8 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:43,600 our first interview episode. Enjoy. 9 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:49,360 Why did it count backwards? Oh no, we're now recording. 10 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:58,560 What? Hello, Captain. Come fly with me. Let's fly. Let's fly. 11 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:06,480 What are we going to talk about? I don't know. So leadership, life and everything 12 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:11,560 else. Yeah. 13 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:16,040 Ben Balk, CEO and founder of Kindicare. So welcome to the podcast. 14 00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:18,280 Thank you guys for having me. Our pleasure. 15 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:23,360 So we'd love to hear how Kindicare started. Give our listeners a background to it. 16 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:27,700 Yeah. So the story of how Kindicare started really came out of a market need or problem 17 00:01:27,700 --> 00:01:32,640 we experienced as a family ourselves. So, you know, we've got two young daughters. We 18 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:37,680 went through the childcare journey and I watched my wife going through it, my wife, Jelini, 19 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:41,600 and you know, she held a spreadsheet of, you know, the six centres we'd applied to, what 20 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:46,000 their ratings were, phone numbers, because we needed to constantly chase them to try 21 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:49,760 and see, you know, whether we had a place or where we were at on the wait list, because 22 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:54,860 she was going back to work. And it just seemed a completely outdated and inefficient way 23 00:01:54,860 --> 00:01:59,540 to actually find things, particularly when people are used to sophisticated marketplaces 24 00:01:59,540 --> 00:02:03,760 for everything from real estate to booking a hotel. There just doesn't seem to be that 25 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:09,040 level of technology in the education and care markets, which is why we just started to build 26 00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:11,960 Kindicare. Wow. Out of the need. 27 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:16,880 Jelini sounds very smart. Yes, it was certainly her idea. And, you know, 28 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:21,080 a big part of how Kindicare started, I've been researching the market for a while. And 29 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:25,360 originally I was looking at the opportunities on the more the business side and the childcare 30 00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:30,600 management software space. But when I came back to look at the market again, when COVID 31 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:35,240 hit, you know, I had a successful consulting business that, you know, larger was focused 32 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:39,480 on mergers and acquisitions and strategy consulting. Of course, with COVID, all of the work sort 33 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:45,040 of dried up very quickly. And so after six weeks of twiddling my thumbs, you know, I 34 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:51,640 re looked at the idea behind Kindicare and the issues and just started building the business. 35 00:02:51,640 --> 00:02:56,560 You said you were in mergers and acquisitions, but coming up with this idea doesn't just 36 00:02:56,560 --> 00:03:01,800 come, not everyone can do it. So what is your background that you were able to develop this 37 00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:07,300 product and your, do you have a lot of IT knowledge? Like what's your experience prior 38 00:03:07,300 --> 00:03:12,000 to this? Yeah, so I've always been working for technology companies in product sales 39 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:16,880 and marketing roles. So, I mean, I had experience in building largely B2B products. And so Kindicare 40 00:03:16,880 --> 00:03:21,360 is the first business that I've pursued that is, you know, a two-sided marketplace where 41 00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:26,680 you're dealing with a B2C audience and a consumer audience as well. So, you know, my background, 42 00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:30,360 I guess, in product and looking at things from a market problem point of view and just 43 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:35,160 pragmatically, how do you solve that and make that a better journey? But, you know, unlike, 44 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:39,120 I guess, you know, some other elements of the market or some marketplaces where I feel 45 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:43,360 that they sometimes get it wrong is you have to treat the customer on each side equally. 46 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:47,520 So it doesn't matter if the consumer is not the one paying the bill and it's a business 47 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:51,800 side that actually pays for it. You've got to ensure that the experience is a great experience 48 00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:57,160 for both sides. So you're a leader because you're the CEO of the company that you've 49 00:03:57,160 --> 00:04:02,480 founded. Were you a leader in your previous roles? Yeah, I've held senior leadership roles. 50 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:06,800 You know, before I started my consulting company, I held, you know, product sales and marketing 51 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:11,760 senior leadership roles in, you know, everything from private equity owned businesses to ASX 52 00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:16,640 100 or 200 listed businesses. So, you know, of course, in those sort of roles, you are 53 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:21,440 leading large teams of people. So how does it differ leading in an organization 54 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:26,940 where it's a job and leading when you're a founder? So, well, it's more personal when 55 00:04:26,940 --> 00:04:31,280 you're a founder because it's not just a job. I mean, it's, I mean, when you face adversity, 56 00:04:31,280 --> 00:04:34,720 when you're a leader within a corporate environment, you know, there's a lot more support you can 57 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:39,560 draw on within an organization. But at the end of the day, you know, if you go home and 58 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:43,960 the task doesn't get done or you've lost one particular person, it's not as critical as 59 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:49,760 what it is in a startup environment where every decision kind of matters. And leadership's 60 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:55,080 also I think very different because rather than taking on the leadership style or the 61 00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:59,720 culture of the organization, which you kind of almost get forced to adapt to in a way 62 00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:04,600 and sometimes operate differently to what you naturally would as a human, being a founder 63 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:10,140 and CEO of my own business, I run the business like I am as a person. You know, so it feels 64 00:05:10,140 --> 00:05:14,920 much more natural then and I can lead in the style that works for me and then, you know, 65 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:20,160 engage people and have people in the business who are willing to work with that style. 66 00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:24,360 So did you find you felt constrained when you're a leader in an organization compared 67 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:25,360 to your own business? 68 00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:28,360 Absolutely, because you're often getting second guess, you know, what you think might be the 69 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:33,400 right decision. And it's not to say that it will always be, you know, the right decision. 70 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:37,960 But you know, at least you make a decision you feel is right based on your judgment. 71 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:41,560 And if you've got people second guessing that in another environment, or if there's other 72 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:45,900 political agendas at play, particularly in large corporates, you know, you can often 73 00:05:45,900 --> 00:05:51,080 be left not being able to lead or do what you want as a business leader within the organization 74 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:55,860 or within your remit because of the constraints of the organization itself. 75 00:05:55,860 --> 00:06:02,760 So without those constraints, and it's your own baby, is there a process or methodology 76 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:04,760 you use for decision making? 77 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:10,560 So I'm a very data driven person. So, you know, and within KindiCare, we've built a 78 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:16,440 lot of capability to capture data and understand user behavior to understand, you know, the 79 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:21,080 actual customer journey on both sides to understand what's important. So, you know, we might have 80 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:24,800 a hypothesis as a business or I might have a hypothesis from a product point of view 81 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:28,960 about what I think will work or what's the right market or the right pivot to go after 82 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:34,520 as we chase product market fit. But ultimately, you know, you use data to make that decision. 83 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:39,840 So even if we decide to create a new function as an example, we'll build it, and we'll 84 00:06:39,840 --> 00:06:43,080 put it to market, but we'll actually measure the success of it to understand whether that 85 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:46,960 was actually a meaningful feature or not. And that's how you make sure that the platform 86 00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:51,520 or the business doesn't become bloated with technology that's not relevant. You know, 87 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:54,880 you've got to own your mistakes and go, well, that was a good idea, but it's not working 88 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:59,160 or it's not used for whatever reasons. And if it's not used, you know, retire it off 89 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:00,160 and move on. 90 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:01,160 So you can be more agile. 91 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:05,040 You can be definitely more agile. And, you know, with being in a startup environment, 92 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:09,680 being my business, I mean, you know, you always take calculated risks in any role, whether 93 00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:13,080 you're in a corporate environment or whether you're running your own business. But, you 94 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:17,240 know, I don't have to worry about, you know, a program governance committee around capital 95 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:23,600 or approval processes or, you know, from offshore or even onshore within an organization, I 96 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:27,280 can assess the risk knowing everything I do about the business and make the right call 97 00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:31,320 at the right time based on the data I've got at hand. If you get new data in the future 98 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:36,240 that shows that that decision was wrong for any reason, at least you haven't had a period 99 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:40,520 of indecision and you don't have that, you know, two or three month lag in some cases 100 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:45,460 to do what you want to try and actually see if it works. And so there's a lot of resources 101 00:07:45,460 --> 00:07:51,440 wasted in larger organizations just with trying to get stakeholders on board and trying to 102 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:55,520 build engagement or trying to build consensus instead of someone actually just making the 103 00:07:55,520 --> 00:08:00,520 call based on the information. 104 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:04,560 Decision making in a large business is complex because of the size of organizations. You 105 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:10,680 know, the reason that startups and come into a sector and often disrupt it is because of 106 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:16,460 one thing that's very common in organizations is, you know, I guess beliefs that that end 107 00:08:16,460 --> 00:08:20,560 up developing. So people will make an assumption in an organization and particularly if they're 108 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:25,040 in a leadership position, even if it's not founded in fact or proven, it gets repeated 109 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:28,920 enough times that that assumption actually drives the business and any new people coming 110 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:32,840 into the organization led to believe that's the way or this is the way a market is because 111 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:39,600 of X or Y. And so, you know, and depending on how well people within an organization 112 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:43,880 are open to new ideas or to being challenged, depending on the culture, that can really 113 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:48,640 affect where the business ends up long term. So you might not see the impacts in the next 114 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:52,840 12 months, but you know, in three or five years time, an organization could lose a lot 115 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:55,680 of market share because they didn't see what was right in front of them or actually get 116 00:08:55,680 --> 00:09:00,160 the empirical evidence for the decision making that they're doing. 117 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:06,240 So being not from industry, if not from that sector has actually given you a leg up because 118 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:10,480 you can see the issues from the outside without the bias. 119 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:14,960 That's right. So, you know, when, when we came into the childcare sector, we spoke to 120 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:19,120 a lot of early learning providers, we looked at all the feedback from parents and as parents 121 00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:22,880 ourselves understanding the journey that we went through to look at, well, how do you 122 00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:29,320 make this a better experience? But given the lack of, you know, education technology and 123 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:34,740 technology that exists in, you know, care and education industries globally, you know, 124 00:09:34,740 --> 00:09:38,160 you don't look then within the industry or what the competitors in the industry who are 125 00:09:38,160 --> 00:09:42,560 already underserving the market are doing. You look at what other organizations are doing. 126 00:09:42,560 --> 00:09:46,920 So for example, you know, one of the key differences with the kindy care app compared to other 127 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:51,720 search platforms out there is that we don't just start with suburban postcode and that's 128 00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:55,840 the start of your entire search experience. We built the ability to search by brand, by 129 00:09:55,840 --> 00:10:00,640 center name, by keyword. So there's lots of different paths for people to find their results. 130 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:04,800 But we also looked at things like, for example, Uber Eats, where I could be anywhere in the 131 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:10,600 world that has Uber Eats is, you know, operating and sitting in a hotel at 11 o'clock at night 132 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:16,680 and see all of my food options by major brands, by types of cuisine, everything contextualized 133 00:10:16,680 --> 00:10:21,920 immediately for me around, you know, that particular area. And, you know, someone searching 134 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:26,840 for childcare for the first time doesn't know what quality looks like, where they should 135 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:30,600 be looking, what the types of care available are and what value for money looks like or 136 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:35,240 what they should be paying. So with kindy care, when they open the app, even before 137 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:39,160 they've done a search, they're shown who are the top brands, what are the best rated ones? 138 00:10:39,160 --> 00:10:43,200 What are the ones closest to them? Who are the newest services in the area? So they're 139 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:48,480 at least given a range of options and can actually be taken through the journey, never 140 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:50,920 having any experience in that sector before. 141 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:52,920 So you're the Uber Eats of childcare. 142 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:53,920 I guess so. 143 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:56,920 I like it. I like it. 144 00:10:56,920 --> 00:11:04,000 So you started out as a searching for childcare and an app that's going to help people do 145 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:10,360 that. But you've pivoted to being a portal where people can find jobs in the industry. 146 00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:16,280 How do you go from targeting one aspect of the industry to then pivoting almost completely 147 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:19,780 to a new business, I guess? 148 00:11:19,780 --> 00:11:23,660 So we always saw the gap in the market around, you know, the existing portals and how people 149 00:11:23,660 --> 00:11:27,720 find jobs in a specific industry. And a lot of people that work in the childcare sector 150 00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:31,280 are obviously going to remain in the childcare sector. So, you know, they're going to be 151 00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:33,840 consistently looking for roles in this environment. 152 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:36,360 So you saw that from the start, when you started out the app? 153 00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:40,940 Yeah, we actually, way back to 2018, when I first started looking at the childcare sector, 154 00:11:40,940 --> 00:11:44,840 we identified careers as one of the things that could be done better. But I guess the 155 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:51,200 real pivot for us and the reason that we started working on this with such vigor was, you know, 156 00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:55,240 customers were telling us that leads from parents looking for childcare isn't necessarily 157 00:11:55,240 --> 00:12:00,880 a problem at the moment. Their biggest challenge is educators and staff. And the more educators 158 00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:05,720 and staff that they have, the more leads they can accept from parents because they've got 159 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:10,400 the ability to obviously, you know, fill more vacancies within their centres because there 160 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:16,920 are very strict child staff ratios in Australia for childcare, which is completely appropriate. 161 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:20,440 So, you know, if you're down one educator, that could mean, you know, 10 kids that you 162 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:24,560 can't actually have in your centre because you don't have enough staff. We didn't set 163 00:12:24,560 --> 00:12:29,340 out to do kindercare jobs as, you know, here's just a little add on. We set out to build 164 00:12:29,340 --> 00:12:34,640 the best experience we could possibly create and invest it appropriately to do that. And 165 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:39,560 we did it in record time. So, you know, from ideation of the pivot and the decision that 166 00:12:39,560 --> 00:12:45,640 we were going to pivot to jobs as an additional capability of the platform of the marketplace 167 00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:47,320 to delivery took four months. 168 00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:51,320 Whereas that would take probably four years in a large organisation. 169 00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:54,320 Large organisations that I've worked with previously, you know, you go through a business 170 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:57,240 case round, you've got to wait for a board meeting, you know, it might take you four 171 00:12:57,240 --> 00:13:00,920 months just to get approval that yes, we're happy for you to pursue the idea, let alone 172 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:05,640 actually just get on with it and build it. 173 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:10,600 So we talk a lot about leadership in this podcast and a leader is somebody that you 174 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:14,480 choose to follow, a manager is somebody who's been given authority over you. And we talk 175 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:19,560 about the character traits that make somebody the type of person you'd want to follow. 176 00:13:19,560 --> 00:13:23,400 You've no doubt had a lot of great mentors and leaders that you've looked up to. What 177 00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:29,280 would you say are the most important characteristics of a leader, somebody that you would be inspired 178 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:30,280 to follow? 179 00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:34,760 So I think, you know, over your career and as you age and obviously go through your path 180 00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:40,320 in life, the most important thing is actually finding people at any stage that you can learn 181 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:46,620 something from. So, you know, through my career, I've had mentors and leaders and colleagues 182 00:13:46,620 --> 00:13:51,320 and people that I've learned a lot from and you might find over time that, you know, your 183 00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:56,280 skill base and your experience surpasses people that you've learned from in the past, which 184 00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:59,600 means that, you know, they don't provide the same sort of value from a mentoring or leadership 185 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:03,480 point of view, you kind of outgrow certain people that you meet through your life. But 186 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:06,240 the most important thing is at each stage of your life, you've got people that you're 187 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:07,240 learning from. 188 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:14,600 You know, the people I've always most respected that I've worked with are ones that are a 189 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:19,680 bit more selfless. I mean, they're driven. But, you know, there's almost like a higher 190 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:23,240 purpose to what they're doing. So, you know, it's not about the money, for example, or 191 00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:27,400 it's not about their position in the organization and climbing the corporate ladder as being 192 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:32,800 the most important thing. It's about doing the job right to solving problems, being passionate 193 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:38,120 about what they're trying to achieve. You know, money should really be the byproduct 194 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:42,320 product of a job well done in anything. I mean, that goes from running a startup, you 195 00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:46,080 know, KindiCare, who knows where we'll end up. But, you know, if we solve problems well 196 00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:51,320 and if we provide value for clients, you know, the revenue will continue to grow and the 197 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:55,120 business will be valuable. And whether I'm the right person to be running this business 198 00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:59,200 in five years or whether it's passing on the baton to someone else or whether it's going 199 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:08,280 after a different market, you never know until you get there. But integrity is a really important 200 00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:13,040 thing and having trust in the person. That, I think, comes back to what are their personal 201 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:19,080 motivations. So, you know, I think Paul Keating once said, people always do what's most important 202 00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:24,020 to them at any point in time. But the great leaders, yes, they'll be focused on the most 203 00:15:24,020 --> 00:15:27,760 important issue, but it's less about them and more about what they're actually trying 204 00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:32,800 to achieve. So, you're quite a visionary yourself considering what you've created in such a 205 00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:39,160 short amount of time. And so, you've looked up to people who've got a purpose, a drive, 206 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:42,640 they're aiming for something and they think bigger than their role, they think bigger 207 00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:46,760 than themselves. I like that. Yeah. So, you know, that sort of comes through in them being 208 00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:52,600 a bit more entrepreneurial, they'll be a bit more flexible in decision making, within reason, 209 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:58,360 they're willing to accept risk and make the right decision despite what blowback or pressure 210 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:03,040 they might get in return. So, when you right or wrong, when you believe something is the 211 00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:07,800 right thing to do, there has to be integrity behind that and you can't fold in the face 212 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:14,360 of opposition. And no person building a startup or no person really helping a company succeed 213 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:18,200 can be the type of person that just backs down at the first opposition to fall into 214 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:22,560 line. So, yeah, we love talking about confidence and how a confident leader is somebody who 215 00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:26,440 will make the right decision, not the popular decision. Sometimes the popular decision is 216 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:30,720 the right decision, but it's about knowing when that is the case, whether you're making 217 00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:35,560 the right decision based on principles, based on vision, based on purpose, or you're making 218 00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:38,960 the decision based on being liked. Well, I think this is where there's a lot of distrust 219 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:43,280 of political leaders in the current environment. You know, how much do we see instead of making 220 00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:47,520 the right decision for the next 20 years, people making the short term decision about 221 00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:53,080 selling a public asset to get the return to buy a stadium to get the next round of election 222 00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:57,680 votes or changing their position from what they believe because it's tested in media 223 00:16:57,680 --> 00:17:01,480 or they've had blowback. You know, right or wrong, you have to stand by your convictions 224 00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:05,320 and what you're trying to do. And if you're a political leader and people don't stand 225 00:17:05,320 --> 00:17:08,840 behind that and don't see that vision for the country or aren't aligned with you, isn't 226 00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:13,720 it better rather than to hold on to power, like we've seen some politicians do, not naming 227 00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:23,360 any ex prime minister, then then actually talking about a needed Keating. 228 00:17:23,360 --> 00:17:28,080 Integrity is really important. And you know, you can't think the population's dumb. People 229 00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:36,400 see authenticity and they will see through you if it's not a genuine experience. 230 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:43,440 So Ben, what do you consider to be your superpower? What's your biggest strength? 231 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:46,480 Your leadership superpower? 232 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:52,360 I think the ability to articulate an idea and get people to follow it. And I'm a product 233 00:17:52,360 --> 00:17:54,800 guy. I love you an influencer. 234 00:17:54,800 --> 00:18:01,080 I don't see myself as an influencer or anything special, to be honest. I mean, I love Lego 235 00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:06,400 as a kid. Kindicare just did a Lego competition. That's partly because I love Lego. But you 236 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:11,200 know, I was always a builder from a very young age and I love solving problems. And so, you 237 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:16,960 know, for me, I never knew I'd end up being, I guess, you know, in product development 238 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:21,560 or product management in my career and then end up founding a startup to boot. 239 00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:22,560 A bipolar startup. 240 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:27,840 A bipolar startup. I mean, it is quite a journey that nothing can really prepare you for. But, 241 00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:32,120 you know, there's just that driving me to solve problems and do it in an elegant way. 242 00:18:32,120 --> 00:18:37,280 And I can't describe it any other way than that. That's how my mind works. And I just 243 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:41,840 feel I'm a natural on creating products that work for the market. 244 00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:44,920 So people who are out there thinking about starting their own business, founding. 245 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:47,720 Think again. Think again. 246 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:55,600 Keep your life. So what lessons would you give to people who are thinking about starting 247 00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:56,880 their own business? 248 00:18:56,880 --> 00:18:57,880 It's not glamorous. 249 00:18:57,880 --> 00:18:58,880 It's not glamorous. 250 00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:04,600 So, you know, I think people look at startups or they see a business that's been successful. 251 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:08,400 You know, typically it's an overnight success, 10 years in the making. 252 00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:15,680 You know, the journey of building a business is hard. I mean, it's incredibly hard. And 253 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:20,200 from a, it's just all consuming. 254 00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:25,800 So I mean, look, I've had, you know, senior corporate roles with, you know, serious pressure 255 00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:31,360 behind it, but nothing compares to building a startup where you're responsible for every 256 00:19:31,360 --> 00:19:35,800 aspect of it. It's your baby because it's so personal, but at the same time, you know, 257 00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:38,200 it requires every ounce of energy and focus. 258 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:43,200 So, you know, the first thing I'd say to people is, you know, be prepared for the sacrifices 259 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:44,200 that will come. 260 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:48,360 You know, you will lose friendships. You will see the worst version of yourself and the 261 00:19:48,360 --> 00:19:51,200 best version of yourself through the process. 262 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:56,760 It will become addictive and all consuming. And if the business doesn't come first over 263 00:19:56,760 --> 00:20:02,540 everything else, health, family, recreation, time, you name it, you won't succeed. 264 00:20:02,540 --> 00:20:06,800 And I know that sounds horrible, but it's what it really takes. You know, there's no 265 00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:10,640 idea if I can clock off at six o'clock or maybe nine o'clock's a long night. You know, 266 00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:14,480 if you have to be up till three o'clock in the morning, six days in a row to get a product 267 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:18,720 released or, you know, because you've got media attention on you and you have to respond, 268 00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:27,280 you know, at a moment's notice, despite what your other plans are, you end up doing everything. 269 00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:30,880 So you've been going at a cracking pace for some time now. What are you doing to look 270 00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:35,000 after yourself? Because if it's like the old adage when you're on a plane, Michelle, I'm 271 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:44,080 sure knows this very well, that if you don't put your gas mask on, you put your oxygen 272 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:48,240 mask on first, you can't help anyone else. So what are you doing to help yourself so 273 00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:52,640 that you can continue this hectic pace? 274 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:55,440 You know, the hard thing is when you know you need a break or when you know you've hit 275 00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:59,560 the wall, you've often got no choice. So, you know, it's a bit like having kids in a 276 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:02,480 way, you know, if your kids are sick and it's four in the morning and they're vomiting and 277 00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:07,280 you need to get up and you're exhausted, you have no choice. So it's that kind of thing. 278 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:10,300 Whereas if you're in a job, you know, what's the worst that can happen? You might lose 279 00:21:10,300 --> 00:21:14,160 your job. It's very different if it's your business and you know, you've got critical 280 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:19,560 deliverables. So, I mean, as much as possible, I try and talk with with advisors, with friends 281 00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:24,480 and and, you know, have conversations about, you know, issues that we might be facing on 282 00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:26,920 a on a I might be facing on a personal or a business level. 283 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:30,720 So you've got a group of people, leaders that you reach out to, mentors? 284 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:35,160 A group of people that have been through similar situations or friends that I've known for 285 00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:41,200 a long time to keep to keep a bit grounded. But, you know, getting getting exercise where 286 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:45,280 you can, I try as much as possible to do, you know, a 10k walk every day. 287 00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:48,320 Well, that's clear my head. That's significant. 288 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:51,480 Much to my wife's annoyance. Sometimes that's, you know, one o'clock in the morning and 289 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:54,280 she's worried, worried about me walking on the street. And I have been pulled up by the 290 00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:58,120 police a couple of times in winter whilst wearing a hoodie, wondering what I'm doing 291 00:21:58,120 --> 00:22:02,760 out at that time of the morning. 292 00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:09,080 So I'm going off a bit what Guy was saying about how you're taking care of yourself. 293 00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:14,640 How is your work life balance going and how are you ensuring that there is some balance 294 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:17,320 and it's not tipping way too much the other way? 295 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:21,720 Look, you know, one of the things that I have to do, I have a diary booking on a Friday 296 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:26,760 night to make sure that it's family dinner and moving out with my girls. 297 00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:31,040 You know, whilst it's hard to get work life balance, at least with, you know, working 298 00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:36,200 from a home office and our staff is 100% remote. Everyone works from wherever is most convenient. 299 00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:40,960 It's 100% flexible working. So what that does afford me is, yes, I might be working till 300 00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:45,040 three o'clock in the morning, but I can do the pick up and drop off of the kids, you 301 00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:49,800 know, make sure I spend time. I try and cook the girls dinner. So I'm the only cook in 302 00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:54,400 the house. My wife is good at so many things, but other than two minute noodles, there's 303 00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:58,680 not much in the cooking department that she can really do. So, but you know, that's important 304 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:02,600 for me because I love food and, you know, being able to cook a meal for the kids and 305 00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:06,000 watch them enjoy that, you know, then they have bath time, et cetera. And once I've hit 306 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:10,480 the sack, I'm back off to work for another few hours or as long as it takes. So, you 307 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:13,760 know, I have no work life balance. I don't think it's fair to call it that way. And I 308 00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:18,320 don't think Eddie founder of a startup would say that they've got work life balance, but 309 00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:22,080 I think you try and make it work. And I'm very lucky that I have an incredibly supportive 310 00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:27,800 wife who picks up and shoulders a load, even though she has a, you know, high profile corporate 311 00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:32,720 job. You know, she picks up the load knowing where I'm at with the business and the effort 312 00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:38,760 that I need to put into it. So does Jelani, do you check in with Jelani as far as because, 313 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:43,880 you know, it was basically her problem that you came up with a solution or you both came 314 00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:50,080 up with a solution. Do you check in with her often or, or, you know, occasionally about 315 00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:57,640 how the market solution is going and, and how she is as a parent, excuse me, and, and 316 00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:04,120 how she is as a consumer, basically, although your girls are older now, to how, how it fits 317 00:24:04,120 --> 00:24:05,120 in with the vision. 318 00:24:05,120 --> 00:24:09,680 Yeah. So, so Jelani gets involved with ideas around the business, but not involved on a 319 00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:13,640 day to day basis. I mean, she came up with the original problem set, but I guess just 320 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:17,040 like all things, our business are now scaled to a point where we've got so many inputs 321 00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:21,120 coming in from parents and you know, there's 85,000 people that have installed the kindy 322 00:24:21,120 --> 00:24:25,760 care app since we launched, we have a hundred thousand sessions a month between app and 323 00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:30,040 website of families who are looking for early learning services. So we have a big pool of 324 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:34,320 people to ask as well as a huge wealth of data around what products and services and 325 00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:39,320 features and functions are being used on our platform. So, you know, where, where Jelani's 326 00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:43,760 input often comes in is just the gut feel of how do I feel about a certain thing as 327 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:44,760 a mom? 328 00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:49,960 So back to your 10 kilometer walk in the mornings. Do you find, cause that's a, that's a fair 329 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:54,560 amount of, uh, meet, meetridge that you're, you're covering, no doubt, unless you're an 330 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:59,760 Olympic walker and you do it in a short amount of time. Um, do you find that that is the, 331 00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:05,100 the time of day when most of your insights come to your ideas or do you find it a way 332 00:25:05,100 --> 00:25:06,920 of just turning off? 333 00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:10,320 Yeah, look, I try and do phone calls on the walk because I think, I think better while 334 00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:14,600 I'm moving and so much of my time is spent at the desk because of the nature of, you 335 00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:18,760 know, our business. So, you know, conversations are much better done when I'm walking and 336 00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:24,840 I've probably, you know, just completely killed the floorboards in our home office because 337 00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:27,640 I'll pace backwards and forwards when I'm on the phone. So, I mean, if I'm going to 338 00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:31,520 go for a walk, I try and do a decent walk. So it's a good time to either, you know, if 339 00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:34,600 it's the middle of the night, I'm doing a late night walk. That's a good time to reflect 340 00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:39,560 and think, or just decompress, you know, listen to some music, you know, just do something 341 00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:43,720 and be out and have some fresh air and move. Um, if it's early in the day, yeah, I'll usually 342 00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:48,720 be on the phone to either advisors or investors or, you know, people that I need to speak 343 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:51,760 to, even customers in some cases. And I'll let them know as I'm huffing and puffing up 344 00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:57,240 a hill that I'm out walking, um, so that they're aware. But when I ran my consulting business, 345 00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:01,120 I found that, you know, the most efficient use of time. So I can get exercise at the 346 00:26:01,120 --> 00:26:06,360 same time as I'm still working. 347 00:26:06,360 --> 00:26:12,520 I don't use the term work life balance myself. I actually deplore it. I think it's, it's, 348 00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:16,280 it's the wrong term because what it does is it implies that your life stops when you go 349 00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:24,360 to work. I see work as a part of life and it's going to just integrate the two. 350 00:26:24,360 --> 00:26:27,920 It's a part of life if you love what you do and do you like what you do. And I love what 351 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:31,760 I do every day. Like despite the challenges, I mean, I believe in what we're doing and 352 00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:37,440 I absolutely love what I do. Um, so, you know, and again, it goes to that there's a, there's 353 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:41,840 a greater driver. I mean, I could have taken a, you know, corporate roles, earning a lot 354 00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:46,600 more money with a lot less stress and pressure, but it's not about that. So, you know, for 355 00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:50,120 me it's, you know, solving the problem and driving it and being able to build something 356 00:26:50,120 --> 00:26:55,560 that's truly mine. Um, so, you know, but I, I saw a post on LinkedIn, I think it was actually 357 00:26:55,560 --> 00:27:00,320 this morning around, you know, people that stay extra hours or work through the night 358 00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:04,240 to get something done or achieve a task that shouldn't be worn as a badge of honor. You 359 00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:09,440 know, you need work life balance. And I don't subscribe to that view at all. I mean, I understand 360 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:13,880 if you're an employee and are you being rewarded appropriately for, for that, but I think it 361 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:18,200 comes from a greater driver. I mean, if you love what you do, even if you're an employee, 362 00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:21,320 you'll go the extra mile because you believe in what you're doing and you want to succeed 363 00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:22,320 and you want to see it done. 364 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:26,000 Oh, we definitely subscribe to that, that, you know, it's the thing that gets you up 365 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:29,840 early in the morning, couple of hours before most people wake up. It's the thing that keeps 366 00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:34,840 you going late at night and then yeah, it drives you. It's definitely a passion. 367 00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:40,000 You know, there's plenty of people that will do whatever for a buck. Um, and I'm not one 368 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:44,640 of those people. So, you know, when I look to people that I feel I can learn from, or 369 00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:48,520 I see as, you know, people I'd look up to or mentors, they've, they've typically had 370 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:49,520 that trait. 371 00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:54,160 And then as you said before, when you go past them, you've learned everything and a great 372 00:27:54,160 --> 00:28:00,080 leader should inspire those that they lead to become better than themselves. That's ultimately 373 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:01,440 the role of a leader. 374 00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:05,800 Absolutely. So, and this comes back to your point guy around confidence. So if someone's 375 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:09,480 confident, they're not worried about hiring someone that's more capable than them. Like 376 00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:13,960 if I was going out tomorrow to hire a chief data officer for the organization, I would 377 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:17,980 want someone who's more capable than me that could bring you ideas that could challenge 378 00:28:17,980 --> 00:28:22,640 what we've done and do it better because what would you get someone that was less than, 379 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:28,480 I mean, you're just going to get to make yourself feel superior. There is no point to that. 380 00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:32,160 You always want to surround yourself with people that you could see succeeding better. 381 00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:39,280 I mean, if we're, you know, I'm 43 now, you know, I've still got a ways to go in my career. 382 00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:43,360 But you know, if I was looking at someone that I'm employing to be who's younger than 383 00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:47,360 me or even older than me, you still want them to be better. You want them to be better at 384 00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:50,460 what they do than what you are. 385 00:28:50,460 --> 00:28:53,960 And Henry Ford is very famous for, and I hope it's true because it's on the internet, so 386 00:28:53,960 --> 00:29:00,240 it's got to be true. Henry Ford is famous for saying, I wasn't a brilliant man, but 387 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:05,280 I surrounded myself with them. So you obviously subscribe to the same model that you surround 388 00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:06,840 yourself with people who have got. 389 00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:10,920 Yeah, no one's got all the answers. And so, you know, and the other trait, I think of 390 00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:14,200 a good leader is someone that you can actually listen and talk to. I mean, I would say to 391 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:19,080 my team members, you know, I'll sometimes have very fixed views and I'm always happy 392 00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:23,760 to be challenged, but you know, you've got to have some backup or some proof or some 393 00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:28,400 reasoning behind what you're challenging me with. And I'm always open because, you know, 394 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:33,560 if we take an idea and someone's got a better one, then it creates a better product and 395 00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:37,520 it creates a better experience for our customers on both sides of the marketplace. So why would 396 00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:42,160 you not want that? You know, no one contains all the innovation in their head. No one's 397 00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:46,080 got all of the answers. And so you need a strong and capable team around you and you 398 00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:47,960 want people that can challenge you. 399 00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:52,040 Well, I think we've learned a lot about leadership today. I'd like to throw one more question. 400 00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:57,160 Is there anything else, any advice you could give to leaders out there? You've now 43 years, 401 00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:03,640 probably at the start of your leadership career, considering, you know, you've just founded 402 00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:08,960 your own company and the headway that you've made in such a very short amount of time. 403 00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:13,720 What's one lesson you can leave our leaders that are listening? 404 00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:20,320 Trust your people. You know, hire the right people with the right motivations from you 405 00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:24,640 personally in hiring them and then trust them to do the job. 406 00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:26,280 Simple. Love it. 407 00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:32,440 So Ben, not many people know or no one would know that I am actually an employee of you 408 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:40,080 and you took a risk hiring an ex airline captain, retired airline captain into an IT startup 409 00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:44,000 business. So why? 410 00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:51,920 I asked myself that so many times. Look, actually, again, it was one of these hypotheses. You 411 00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:58,160 know, I looked at people that were being affected by COVID that were going to be displaced as 412 00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:02,720 a result. So highly qualified, highly capable people, you know, with good technical skills, 413 00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:03,720 with good management skills. 414 00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:04,720 But again, why? 415 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:12,360 So I just, you know, people have like I didn't I guess from, you know, my lens has changed 416 00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:17,280 a bit over the years. And so, you know, Australia tends to have this, how do I put it, this 417 00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:22,320 precedent based recruitment. So you can't get a job easily as a chief technology officer 418 00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:25,720 unless you've previously held the title of a chief technology officer. It doesn't seem 419 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:29,440 to matter what you really achieved. It's how well you spin it in the interview. And do 420 00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:31,480 you have that title on your resume? 421 00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:37,480 So you know, people are less hired on their outcomes and skills and capabilities than 422 00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:41,600 what they are on what's on the resume and how well they can actually position themselves 423 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:46,240 in an interview. So, you know, I didn't come from the childcare industry. But I've worked 424 00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:50,120 across a number of different sectors in my life, whether it be enterprise resource planning 425 00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:56,720 software in, you know, hard goods in in consumables, through to, you know, information technology 426 00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:03,720 companies like Equifax and Experian, etc. And, you know, you sort of learn that it's 427 00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:08,280 the skills that you have as a person that can translate across industries that are most 428 00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:14,120 valuable. So when I looked at, you know, Michelle, you coming from an aviation background, I 429 00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:20,680 went, you know, one of the few female captains in your industry, flying, you know, aircraft 430 00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:24,480 in a high pressure job with simulations and everything else you have to go through, particularly 431 00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:29,960 being a female in a male dominated industry, I went, well, she's got to be capable and 432 00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:34,320 handle a lot of things and being in a startup environment, because you were employee number 433 00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:40,360 one, you know, you have to be prepared to work across a whole range of areas, whereas 434 00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:45,440 people that are used to being in a role, you know, in a business, they're usually in a 435 00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:49,640 box with a particular scope of work. And that's not what startup is like. 436 00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:53,420 And do you find they come in with a lot of cognitive bias, which means that they're always 437 00:32:53,420 --> 00:32:57,280 going to continue to do things the way and think the way they've always thought. But 438 00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:01,600 in a startup, you need to be a lot more agile, a little more open to lots of ideas. Do you 439 00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:02,600 find that's the case? 440 00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:08,120 I think regardless of the willingness of the of the person to try and help out, you know, 441 00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:13,120 depending on their their personal character, if you've been in a role in a larger organization, 442 00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:16,800 there's still this bit of that's not my job, or that's not my area, or that's someone else. 443 00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:21,520 And there's no such thing when you're building a business from the ground up, you know, and 444 00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:26,120 even for me personally, I'm hands on tools, you know, if I have to curate 80,000 lines 445 00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:30,240 of data to do our next pricing load, and I'm up, you know, till five in the morning doing 446 00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:34,000 it, it's me sitting there doing it, because there's no one else to rely on, you can't 447 00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:38,920 just say that's not my problem, the job needs to be done, no matter what. And you have to 448 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:44,620 do whatever it takes. So you kind of lose that, you know, position of well, that's beneath 449 00:33:44,620 --> 00:33:48,960 me or, you know, I'm the senior, and I shouldn't have to do that, you know, it's all hands 450 00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:53,960 on deck. So you want to work with people that fundamentally firstly have that character 451 00:33:53,960 --> 00:34:00,640 trait of I'm willing to do whatever it needs to be done for the business to be successful. 452 00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:06,400 And so how can people find more information about Kindicare? Really easy, go to kindicare.com 453 00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:11,920 or go to either Google Play Store or Apple App Store, and search for Kindicare or childcare 454 00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:17,120 and download the Kindicare app. So if you're searching for childcare for your young children, 455 00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:23,880 or if you're looking for a job in the industry, and you want the best experience, go to Kindicare. 456 00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:28,720 And Benjamin Bulk, thank you so much for your time today. Thank you. You're welcome. So 457 00:34:28,720 --> 00:34:35,200 Michelle, where can they find us? Captainandtheclown.com. Where you'll find links to our websites for 458 00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:42,200 keynote speaking and corporate training. Yes, that's captainandtheclown.com. Well, that 459 00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:49,200 was fun. That was fun. You're such a clown. The clown. Lady captain. And who's going to 460 00:34:49,200 --> 00:35:16,200 listen to this? Maybe I'm not. Thanks, mom.