1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:01,760 Why did it count backwards? 2 00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:03,840 Oh no, we're now recording. 3 00:00:04,720 --> 00:00:05,840 What? 4 00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:06,640 Hello Captain. 5 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:14,640 Come fly with me, let's fly, let's fly away. 6 00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:18,320 What are we going to talk about? 7 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:19,280 I don't know. 8 00:00:19,280 --> 00:00:22,560 So leadership, life and everything else. 9 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:23,060 Yeah. 10 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:27,920 And we're live. 11 00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:30,320 No, we're still recording. 12 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:32,560 I'll never be able to get that one right, will I? 13 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:33,060 Okay. 14 00:00:33,920 --> 00:00:38,080 Welcome aboard, Captain and the Clown, today's destination, Michelle. 15 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:39,520 Leadership. 16 00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:41,360 You really don't like that opening, do you? 17 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:48,160 I think it's a good, we're paying respect to your years as an airline pilot. 18 00:00:48,160 --> 00:00:50,320 Welcome on board, destination. 19 00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:55,360 So why are we talking about leadership today? 20 00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:59,920 Well, it's in our subtitle, Life Leadership and Everything Else. 21 00:00:59,920 --> 00:01:01,920 And it's really what this podcast is about. 22 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:03,040 It is, it is. 23 00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:06,000 And it's been quite remiss of us that we haven't spoken about it yet. 24 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:09,840 We've got a few podcasts up and we haven't spoken about this topic. 25 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:16,880 No, so it'd be great to really discuss and cement down what we think of leadership 26 00:01:16,880 --> 00:01:22,800 and what others think of leadership and then see, yeah, whether they're the same and possibly 27 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:25,840 learn some new definitions of leadership. 28 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:29,680 Yeah, especially considering we're going to be talking to a lot of leaders and exploring 29 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:30,800 the topic with them. 30 00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:34,240 But before we get into that topic, I just want to tell our listeners about this beautiful 31 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:36,720 experience we both had up on the street just now. 32 00:01:36,720 --> 00:01:41,760 We were walking along and one of our listeners, we can call her a listener now because she 33 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:44,160 told us she was listening to our podcast. 34 00:01:44,960 --> 00:01:49,440 One of the most beautiful ladies, actually one of the most beautiful human beings that I know, 35 00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:51,040 Janice, we won't say her surname. 36 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:51,600 Hi, Janice. 37 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:52,640 Hi, Janice. 38 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:57,280 Janice just came up to us and was telling us about how much she enjoyed listening to our podcast 39 00:01:57,280 --> 00:01:58,560 at two o'clock in the morning. 40 00:01:58,560 --> 00:01:59,200 I know. 41 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:00,720 Sorry about the lack of sleep. 42 00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:02,560 Yeah, hopefully we didn't keep you awake. 43 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:05,120 She said that we didn't put her to sleep at two o'clock in the morning. 44 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:06,320 So that meant something. 45 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:07,520 But yeah, that was lovely. 46 00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:11,600 It was absolutely lovely to hear from her and to know that, you know, I guess people 47 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:13,520 are getting something out of our podcast. 48 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:14,160 Yeah. 49 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:14,560 Thank you. 50 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:15,120 Thank you again. 51 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:18,880 And also, please, anyone who wants to give us any feedback, we don't mind. 52 00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:22,240 We take it on as feedback, not criticism or praise. 53 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:26,640 Although we do like the praise, but yeah, please, please reach out to us. 54 00:02:26,640 --> 00:02:27,440 Absolutely. 55 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:27,760 All right. 56 00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:29,200 So today we're going to talk about leadership. 57 00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:32,720 And I want to start by talking about the difference between a leader and a manager. 58 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:37,040 So one of the questions I ask my students, I always say, who would you prefer to work 59 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:39,120 for, a leader or a manager? 60 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:41,200 And instantly people put their hand up for leader. 61 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:47,760 In fact, over 30 years of asking this question, 95% of people say, I prefer to work for a 62 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:50,000 leader than a manager. 63 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:51,920 And then I always ask them, why? 64 00:02:51,920 --> 00:02:53,280 Why did you say leader? 65 00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:59,120 And they inevitably say, oh, they lead by example or they've got knowledge and they 66 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:00,160 inspire me. 67 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:02,880 And they start to list off a whole lot of things. 68 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:07,280 But one of the things that they say quite frequently is that they lead by example. 69 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:08,320 And I challenge them. 70 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:12,560 What is the example that they're leading by? 71 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:15,120 And we're going to come back to that a little bit later on. 72 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:20,400 But one of the things I want to share with our listeners is that when I say who would 73 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:23,680 you prefer to work for, a leader or a manager, 95% of people say leader. 74 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:26,560 So 5%, roughly about 5% say manager. 75 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:28,960 And I ask them, why did you say manager? 76 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:32,880 And inevitably it's because they had a manager who was a great leader. 77 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:35,520 So essentially it's 100%. 78 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:40,560 100% of people would prefer to work for a leader than a manager. 79 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:46,160 And it's interesting that quite often they don't discover why it is, what it is about 80 00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:46,960 this word. 81 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:50,320 Because they're just words that I put up on a whiteboard, leader or manager, or up on 82 00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:52,000 a screen, leader or manager. 83 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:54,240 And people instinctively go to leader. 84 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:59,040 Now I know you've got an idea as to why they instinctively go to leader, Michelle. 85 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:01,920 Well, with leader, it's earned. 86 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:04,320 So it's you want to follow. 87 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:05,520 You are inspired. 88 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:08,880 You want to be led by that particular person. 89 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:16,880 Whereas a manager, it's a title, a position, potentially like seniority, where because 90 00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:22,080 you know that topic or you know that subject or work ethic, you've been there a long time. 91 00:04:22,080 --> 00:04:23,440 You've done your due. 92 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:31,280 You then have been given that authority rather than earned it potentially. 93 00:04:31,280 --> 00:04:36,480 So when you're a manager, you've been given authority by the business, by your position. 94 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:42,720 So if you're a team leader, a manager, a supervisor, any title that implies that you're in charge, 95 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:46,400 the business has given you authority, authority over others. 96 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:46,720 Yes. 97 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:51,520 As you said, that if you're a leader, you have earned the authority to lead because in order 98 00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:53,840 to be a leader, other people need to be following you. 99 00:04:53,840 --> 00:04:56,240 If no one's following you, you're just taking a walk. 100 00:04:56,240 --> 00:04:56,960 Absolutely. 101 00:04:56,960 --> 00:04:59,040 And the thing is, I like that actually. 102 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:06,240 But the thing is that we all know and have potentially experienced leaders who were 103 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:08,800 position-wise in the company lower than us. 104 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:15,040 And yet they have all of these qualities that make them a leader. 105 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:17,040 Which is why we want to follow those sort of people. 106 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:17,440 Correct. 107 00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:18,080 Yeah. 108 00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:24,160 So when we dig deeper into this authority, so managers are given authority, leaders earn 109 00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:28,000 authority, so therefore they don't actually have to be in positions of power to be a leader, 110 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:31,360 which is what this whole podcast is all about, all these podcasts are about. 111 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:35,520 It's about how do you become the sort of person that other people would be inspired 112 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:38,240 to follow? How do you become the best version of yourself? 113 00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:42,720 Not necessarily to want people to follow you, but to set the example. 114 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:47,360 And that's really what we get into when we dig into what leadership is. 115 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:53,920 It's a set of character traits that an individual has that makes them the sort of person other 116 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:56,000 people would be inspired to follow. 117 00:05:56,000 --> 00:06:01,600 And so then I challenge my students every day, okay, what are those character traits? 118 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:07,040 What are the character traits that would make somebody the sort of person other people would 119 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:12,320 be inspired to follow? And then we end up building a large list and we've already covered a couple. 120 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:16,080 So Michelle, if you were to think about the character traits that make somebody the sort 121 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:19,440 of person other people would be inspired to follow, what would you say? 122 00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:25,280 Knowledgeable, respectful, honest, definitely, integrity. 123 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:27,680 They're some of the top ones for me. 124 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:32,240 Yeah, and the ones that are the top for me, confidence, which we've already spoken about 125 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:38,960 in one of our podcasts, decisiveness, loyalty, and finding the balance in their loyalty. 126 00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:43,200 So one of the things I love talking about is the importance when you're a leader or when 127 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:48,960 you're a manager of showing loyalty to the individuals in your team, the loyalty to your 128 00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:52,960 team itself, but also balancing that with the loyalty to the organization because, 129 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:57,280 and this is a topic I'd love to have a whole podcast on, that when you're a leader, 130 00:06:57,280 --> 00:07:02,000 when you're a manager, when you're in a position of authority, whether it's given authority or 131 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:09,600 earned authority, it's your role to make your team feel a part of an organization, not apart from 132 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:14,160 the organization, which I- That fine line of towing the company line, so to speak. 133 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:18,400 That's it, yeah. And I would even like to change that whole term, towing the company line. It 134 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:24,800 sounds like you're actually dragging it along, not willfully, but I think it's important that 135 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:30,000 leaders unite their team and unite them as part of an organization, but that's maybe a topic for 136 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:34,160 another day. The other ones I like to think about with regards to character traits are things like 137 00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:41,200 approachability, respectful, like you said, honest and trustworthy, and a big one for me is integrity. 138 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:48,240 Yeah. Yeah. So these are all, I guess, the superlatives that we would use to describe 139 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:56,080 somebody who has the character of a leader, which then goes back to my original challenge to people 140 00:07:56,080 --> 00:08:00,480 who say lead by example. I say, well, what does lead by example mean? And they start telling me 141 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:05,840 different things that they do. But ultimately the meaning of that term lead by example, the reason 142 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:13,120 why we follow people who lead by example, and the example isn't one thing, it's their whole character. 143 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:19,360 And the reason why you're following them is because you want to be like them. Yes. Yeah. It's 144 00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:24,000 not that you like them, that you want to be like them. Obviously you did like them, but you want 145 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:29,440 to be like them. And so we followed people who have character traits that we would like to have 146 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:36,640 in ourselves. Yeah. Yeah. So I think that now lays the foundation for all of our podcasts coming up 147 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:40,640 on leadership and hopefully the ones that we've done in the past, that really what we're here to 148 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:44,560 talk about is how do you become the sort of person other people are inspired by, other people want 149 00:08:44,560 --> 00:08:54,320 to follow because they want to become more like you. Michelle, can you name a leader that you know, 150 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:59,520 that possibly also knows you, that you have followed, that you've respected and then why? 151 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:07,520 Yeah. So I've been fortunate that a lot of people I've worked with have had all of these 152 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:13,120 characteristics that we mentioned or most of them. And you know, you surround yourself with these 153 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:22,560 people and they truly have inspired and also shaped the way I try to lead myself or I lead myself. 154 00:09:22,560 --> 00:09:31,040 And not only in my professional life, but in my personal life. And one of them, and I know he 155 00:09:31,040 --> 00:09:37,200 listens to this, but, and he will possibly laugh, but my flying instructor who taught me to fly, 156 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:47,040 Ollie Oliver Hoffman, he inspired me because he was sure he was a higher grade than me instructor 157 00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:54,960 wise as a student. And then I became a junior grade three instructor, but he really held his 158 00:09:54,960 --> 00:10:03,680 ground, you know, stuck by the rules, almost to the point where a lot of colleagues would bend them 159 00:10:03,680 --> 00:10:10,080 slightly to make it easier. And he stuck to his ground, even if it meant the flight couldn't go, 160 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:16,800 you're going to go over time. So would you describe that as integrity? Absolutely. Yes. Integrity, 161 00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:26,240 very loyal, both to his students and to the company and to the sector to, so flying is 162 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:32,960 everything for him. He really, he lives and breathes aviation, but he does it in such a way. He does 163 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:40,160 completely maintain his integrity. It does grind against others. I have seen that and it's funny, 164 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:46,800 Oliver was actually my FO. It's in aviation. You never know who you're going to work for, 165 00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:51,600 who's going to work for you. So you'd be nice to everybody. And yeah, there were a couple of 166 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:56,720 flights where Ollie was my first officer. And you were the captain. I was, I know. So he started 167 00:10:56,720 --> 00:11:00,880 teaching you and then you became a captain and he was your first officer for a few flights. 168 00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:06,240 That's right. And that's because of seniority, the opportunity when joining the company, he joined 169 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:15,600 about eight years after me. However, there was still a lot of his lessons and the things that 170 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:22,880 made him an inspiration. Yeah. Inspirational leader to me. I tried to, he still displays those and 171 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:29,520 will always be a leader to me. But he, I really try and live up to that. I just want to clarify 172 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:34,640 something you said about Ollie. And I love that you said this, that he had integrity, even when 173 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:40,400 there was maybe pushback from other people. So he had the confidence to do the right thing, 174 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:45,440 not the popular thing. Is that what you're saying? That's it. Exactly. It's one of my favourite 175 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:50,480 aspects of talking about leaders is when you see a leader like Ollie, and I haven't had the privilege 176 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:55,680 of meeting him and hopefully we can get him on this podcast, but you say that he's had integrity 177 00:11:55,680 --> 00:12:01,600 in situations where it would have been easier to do the popular thing, not the right thing. Correct. 178 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:09,520 Oh, lovely. And yourself. Well, I was, I thought about this and I've been very lucky to be 179 00:12:09,520 --> 00:12:16,640 surrounded by quite a number of amazing leaders and characters. But the first two that come to mind, 180 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:22,160 and I hope I get the opportunity to talk about the other leaders over time, but the first two 181 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:30,160 that really come straight to my mind, both called Wayne. The first leader is Wayne Baker. So he 182 00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:36,800 might not necessarily describe himself as a leader, but he absolutely is. And why did Wayne inspire 183 00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:44,960 you? How did he inspire you? Well, I was in school. I was in year seven and a school teacher stood up 184 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:49,360 on assembly and said, would anyone like to try water polo? And being a sports nut, as you know, 185 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:54,960 and ended up playing water polo for a long time. I went and saw Wayne after the assembly and 186 00:12:55,680 --> 00:13:03,680 I enrolled in the water polo program at school. And he, luckily for me, lived just around the 187 00:13:03,680 --> 00:13:09,680 corner from me. He was quite a young teacher when we first met. Actually on that, I met Wayne and 188 00:13:09,680 --> 00:13:15,120 didn't he say you both started at the same time? We did. Yes. We both started at the school at the 189 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:19,280 same time, him being a teacher and myself being in year seven. And I took up water polo. He was my 190 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:26,560 first water polo coach. And the thing, the many, many things I love about Wayne are his character. 191 00:13:26,560 --> 00:13:35,600 So he was really one of the first people that I've learned from. He's got unconditional empathy and 192 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:41,120 compassion for all human beings. He's somebody that hasn't judged a single human being that's 193 00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:44,240 walked this planet. In my personal opinion, I don't think he's ever judged anyone. I've never 194 00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:50,800 heard him judging anyone. He's so accepting of everyone. He's got this beautiful family. 195 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:57,920 He's got five gorgeous kids and he's just this rock. I see him as a rock, as a human being that 196 00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:04,080 if you spend time with, you will learn a lot from. Wayne has, I guess, every superlative that we read 197 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:10,880 out before. And so I felt very privileged as a young man to have had him as a coach, as a mentor. 198 00:14:10,880 --> 00:14:16,320 And I now consider him a friend. I'm sure he'd be quite embarrassed me talking about him like this 199 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:21,360 in a public forum because he's also a very humble man. But he was the first person that came to mind 200 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:25,440 when I was thinking about leaders, people who have got character traits that I'd like to have in myself. 201 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:32,800 And I have mentioned to hit this to him a couple of times, but I've modeled a lot of what I aspire 202 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:37,040 to be off him. So he was the first leader that came to mind. The second one was another Wayne. 203 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:42,480 This was another Wayne involved in my sport water polo, Wayne Miranda. When I moved to Sydney, 204 00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:47,920 I actually had nowhere to live. So he offered the spare room in his house. And Wayne is a former 205 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:54,080 professional rugby league. He played for Balmain Tigers. He was the most gifted sports person. 206 00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:59,200 But same as Wayne Baker, Wayne Miranda had a set of character traits that 207 00:14:59,920 --> 00:15:03,760 every superlative you could find in the dictionary and the thesaurus would describe him. 208 00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:14,080 He again, just non-judgmental, accepting of everyone, confident. Just again, a set of 209 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:20,080 character traits that you wouldn't expect to find in one individual. And they were in the two Waynes 210 00:15:20,080 --> 00:15:27,680 that got me into water polo. And Wayne Miranda was integral in having me stay in water polo as well. 211 00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:33,440 And so yeah, I immediately thought of those two characters because of their character, 212 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:41,760 because of the traits that I wanted within myself was in them. And so I learned so much 213 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:51,440 from those two amazing human beings. Now I asked you to think about leaders that you don't know, 214 00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:58,240 that wouldn't know you, but you know. So leaders who have been influential and who came to mind? 215 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:01,280 Richard Branson. I did meet him on... 216 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:02,320 And you flew for Virgins. 217 00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:07,920 I know, I know. And I had all of his books before the interview. But Richard Branson, I did meet 218 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:16,720 when I was... Oh, that's the studio dog buddy. I met him on an overnight, the Sydney Overnights 219 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:24,000 were famous, that where he would come and he would shout the bar and so forth. And I got to say hello. 220 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:32,000 He would not remember me. And I've held onto that, you know, maybe 30 second meeting for a long time. 221 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:41,920 But just the fact that he is willing to take chances, small risks, and he... Just the way he 222 00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:47,520 inspires others, it's looking at a problem, finding a solution, but getting a community 223 00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:56,880 involved behind it. So leading in that style. And Sarah Blakely as well. So the fact that in 2012, 224 00:16:56,880 --> 00:17:03,360 she started Spanx and it was, you know, a startup at home basically. And just her whole mantra 225 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:09,120 and integrity of maintaining her business acumen. Acumen. 226 00:17:09,120 --> 00:17:10,560 Acumen, sorry, not acumen. 227 00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:13,280 I thought she was a crumen. 228 00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:20,480 No. And just the fact that she has, you know, there have been opportunities for her. And I don't know 229 00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:29,520 her full story, but just what I've seen is that somebody who I am inspired by her leadership 230 00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:36,320 qualities, again, the community feel. So she doesn't take the glory, same with Richard Branson 231 00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:43,600 and other leaders. Yeah, very humble. And they praise their team, but they themselves 232 00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:49,360 take the blame when something goes wrong. And I really, really admire that. Actually, a friend 233 00:17:49,360 --> 00:17:56,640 of ours who we hope to have on here, he tends to lead and we see that, you know, he definitely 234 00:17:56,640 --> 00:17:59,280 pushes others. He leads from the back of the pack. 235 00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:04,240 So like Mandela said, you lead from the back when there's success, you lead from the front 236 00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:08,640 when there's danger. Correct. And I see Brett doing that quite often. Physically. 237 00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:13,280 We'll get him on the podcast. We'll get him on the podcast. I love that two of the leaders that 238 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:19,120 you've thought of are both risk takers. Coming from somebody who took many risks, learning, 239 00:18:19,120 --> 00:18:22,640 not learning to fly, but building up her hours, like all of the island hopping that we spoke 240 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:29,360 about in the very first episode. I like the fact that you look at risk takers as being leaders, 241 00:18:29,360 --> 00:18:32,240 because without risk takers, nothing would change. 242 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:36,160 No, you've got to push the boundaries a little. But calculated risks. 243 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:40,640 Calculated risks. Of course, every risk that Richard Branson has taken, I've read his books 244 00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:45,680 twice, actually. I loved reading his book. So I never had the privilege to meet him like you did, 245 00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:50,880 and you flew for him. So it's brilliant that you got to meet him. But the fact that he took risks, 246 00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:55,280 that he owned who he was, he knew his limitations, he knew his strengths, and he worked to his 247 00:18:55,280 --> 00:19:00,160 strengths. And how about yourself? 248 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:04,080 First person that came to mind was a sports person, Michael Jordan. I grew up idolizing 249 00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:11,360 Michael Jordan, just because of his competitiveness, his drive to succeed. And I certainly wanted that 250 00:19:11,360 --> 00:19:17,040 within myself. And I don't know if you know this, but I've stood about four meters from him. We're 251 00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:23,520 at the Olympics in Barcelona, and we just got our accreditation passes to walk into the village. 252 00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:26,560 And then all these photographers came running in and I thought, oh, we're going to take our 253 00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:30,800 photograph. How good is this? We're all puffing up our chests. And then more photographers ran in, 254 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:34,800 and then all these other people ran in, and they weren't even looking at us. And then in walks the 255 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:39,920 dream team. So Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Clyde Drexler, Patrick Ewing, all of the 256 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:44,400 stars that I grew up idolizing had just walked into the room. So I didn't get to meet Michael 257 00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:50,000 Jordan. But one of the things I love about Michael Jordan and the character of this man is that 258 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:55,280 his failures have been his learning. So when he's interviewed, he always pushes it back to 259 00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:59,200 how he learned from his failures. And I think his relationship to failure, I think we spoke about 260 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:04,000 this in another podcast, and I'm going to repeat myself, because I really do idolize Michael Jordan 261 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:09,920 and his competitiveness. So he was the first one that came to mind. The second one is Nelson 262 00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:14,240 Mandela, who we just mentioned. The whole, you lead from the front when there's danger, you lead 263 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:19,120 from the back when there's success. And so in the corporate world, I've said this to many, many 264 00:20:19,120 --> 00:20:23,360 leaders that you want to be standing at the front when there's danger. So in other words, if there's 265 00:20:23,360 --> 00:20:28,480 failure, you take responsibility for that failure and you own it on behalf of the team, which is 266 00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:32,960 going to make your team feel safe. But when there's success, you stand at the back and you let your 267 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:38,400 team take the spotlight because ultimately it's the team that put in the effort. So Nelson Mandela, 268 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:44,160 also just the fact that his character remains strong through all of the adversity that he 269 00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:50,640 went through. He was always, always able to hold his character true and his empathy for his fellow 270 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:55,920 man. Maintained his integrity, even though it wasn't the popular version. Exactly. 271 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:04,080 And then the last one, I added it to my list. I threw on an extra one is Robin Williams. I'm 272 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:13,360 a big fan of stand up comedy and he would be the number one comedian that I've always admired 273 00:21:13,360 --> 00:21:17,360 because whether you're watching him perform, whether you're watching him being interviewed, 274 00:21:17,360 --> 00:21:22,800 whether you're watching him in movies, I get this sense of who he really was. And I've heard and 275 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:27,920 read stories about him being in cafes late at night and people have come in and they didn't 276 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:32,960 recognise him at first. And just the way he behaved when people didn't know who he was, 277 00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:38,800 or even the way he behaved when people did know who he was, he came across as this compassionate, 278 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:46,160 humble, beautiful human being that had this unbridled sense of fun. And I think all leaders 279 00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:50,000 could benefit from that. And so I put Robin Williams on my list. Now I believe you've got 280 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:56,480 one more. I do. Oprah Winfrey, which I know there's a lot of media about her and she's been 281 00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:04,480 for over 30 years, I suppose. She's been on my radar as being a great leader and coming from 282 00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:10,560 basically like, you know, from the ashes and all of the things that happened to her growing up as 283 00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:19,280 a child and then being, you know, a black lady in America and just the pushback she got and how she 284 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:27,840 maintained her, you know, true North and just kept going and striving and still the philanthropy. 285 00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:34,160 And just, again, she maintains, now I don't know her personally and there may be other things, but 286 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:36,640 Oprah, if you're listening, we're welcome to have you on our podcast. 287 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:43,440 But this has been great in the fact that when you did ask me to think of the leaders that I knew 288 00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:51,440 and who knew me, so who had a direct relationship to me, it got me thinking and really I have 289 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:59,040 been fortunate that I have been led by many who still I consider a fantastic influence 290 00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:05,440 in both professional and personal life. And yeah, like talking about Oliver and Mum and, 291 00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:13,120 you know, even who I'm working for at the moment, Ben, just the way he's able to pivot and refocus 292 00:23:13,120 --> 00:23:20,720 and inclusive, you know, definitely, you know, we talk about the things that didn't work, 293 00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:26,080 that did work and it's just that feeling of a trustworthy community. 294 00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:30,960 Can I reflect on Oprah? One of the things that I admire about her is the fact that she has just 295 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:36,160 grown stronger from all her adversities. That's something that I know that you have done, 296 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:41,760 facing all sorts of different things along your career path, misogyny to all sorts of levels of 297 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:46,240 disrespect, but the fact that everything that stood in your way made you a stronger human being and 298 00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:52,560 you talk about the anti-fragility that's given you. So yeah, I can understand why you look up to Oprah 299 00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:57,760 because she certainly has character traits that you yourself have, Michelle, and who I also look 300 00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:02,560 up to. All right, so I guess we'll finish off this podcast and it's gone a little bit over time, but 301 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:08,960 just reiterating that you're a leader when you have a set of character traits that we would call 302 00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:14,080 superlatives that other people want in themselves. So you're leading by an example. They want those 303 00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:19,360 character traits in them and so they follow you. You could be a manager, you're given authority by 304 00:24:19,360 --> 00:24:24,160 the business, but to be a leader, even if you don't have authority, these character traits that we're 305 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:28,160 going to be discussing at length in many podcasts are the character traits that you want to work on, 306 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:33,600 which makes you the sort of person other people would be inspired to follow. One thing I want to 307 00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:39,920 point out is that no matter where you are, how old or young you are, there is always somebody watching 308 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:46,000 you. So there is always an opportunity to inspire someone. Absolutely, yeah, and what a great way to 309 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:50,400 spend our lives inspiring others. Yes. Yes. All right, so how are we going to sign off? Have we 310 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:54,960 decided on a sign off? No. More dogs? Yes, more dogs. The world is a better place with more dogs. 311 00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:59,040 Yeah, the world is a better place with more dogs. And if you could hear Buddy, the studio dog, 312 00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:04,400 snoring in the background and embarking for some water before, but yeah, the world would be a better 313 00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:08,480 place with more dogs. Yes, okay. All right, have a great week, Michelle. You too, guys. Bye. 314 00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:18,320 So Michelle, where can they find us? Captainandtheclown.com. Where you'll find links to our 315 00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:24,880 websites for keynote speaking and corporate training. Yes, that's captainandtheclown.com. 316 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:32,320 Well, that was fun. That was fun. You're such a clown. The clown. Lady captain. 317 00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:47,200 And who's going to listen to this? Maybe I'm not. Thanks, mom.