Why did it count backwards?
Oh no, we're now recording.
What?
Hello Captain.
Come fly with me, let's fly, let's fly away.
What are we going to talk about?
I don't know.
So leadership, life and everything else.
Yeah.
And we're live.
No, we're still recording.
I'll never be able to get that one right, will I?
Okay.
Welcome aboard, Captain and the Clown, today's destination, Michelle.
Leadership.
You really don't like that opening, do you?
I think it's a good, we're paying respect to your years as an airline pilot.
Welcome on board, destination.
So why are we talking about leadership today?
Well, it's in our subtitle, Life Leadership and Everything Else.
And it's really what this podcast is about.
It is, it is.
And it's been quite remiss of us that we haven't spoken about it yet.
We've got a few podcasts up and we haven't spoken about this topic.
No, so it'd be great to really discuss and cement down what we think of leadership
and what others think of leadership and then see, yeah, whether they're the same and possibly
learn some new definitions of leadership.
Yeah, especially considering we're going to be talking to a lot of leaders and exploring
the topic with them.
But before we get into that topic, I just want to tell our listeners about this beautiful
experience we both had up on the street just now.
We were walking along and one of our listeners, we can call her a listener now because she
told us she was listening to our podcast.
One of the most beautiful ladies, actually one of the most beautiful human beings that I know,
Janice, we won't say her surname.
Hi, Janice.
Janice just came up to us and was telling us about how much she enjoyed listening to our podcast
at two o'clock in the morning.
I know.
Sorry about the lack of sleep.
Yeah, hopefully we didn't keep you awake.
She said that we didn't put her to sleep at two o'clock in the morning.
So that meant something.
But yeah, that was lovely.
It was absolutely lovely to hear from her and to know that, you know, I guess people
are getting something out of our podcast.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Thank you again.
And also, please, anyone who wants to give us any feedback, we don't mind.
We take it on as feedback, not criticism or praise.
Although we do like the praise, but yeah, please, please reach out to us.
Absolutely.
All right.
So today we're going to talk about leadership.
And I want to start by talking about the difference between a leader and a manager.
So one of the questions I ask my students, I always say, who would you prefer to work
for, a leader or a manager?
And instantly people put their hand up for leader.
In fact, over 30 years of asking this question, 95% of people say, I prefer to work for a
leader than a manager.
And then I always ask them, why?
Why did you say leader?
And they inevitably say, oh, they lead by example or they've got knowledge and they
inspire me.
And they start to list off a whole lot of things.
But one of the things that they say quite frequently is that they lead by example.
And I challenge them.
What is the example that they're leading by?
And we're going to come back to that a little bit later on.
But one of the things I want to share with our listeners is that when I say who would
you prefer to work for, a leader or a manager, 95% of people say leader.
So 5%, roughly about 5% say manager.
And I ask them, why did you say manager?
And inevitably it's because they had a manager who was a great leader.
So essentially it's 100%.
100% of people would prefer to work for a leader than a manager.
And it's interesting that quite often they don't discover why it is, what it is about
this word.
Because they're just words that I put up on a whiteboard, leader or manager, or up on
a screen, leader or manager.
And people instinctively go to leader.
Now I know you've got an idea as to why they instinctively go to leader, Michelle.
Well, with leader, it's earned.
So it's you want to follow.
You are inspired.
You want to be led by that particular person.
Whereas a manager, it's a title, a position, potentially like seniority, where because
you know that topic or you know that subject or work ethic, you've been there a long time.
You've done your due.
You then have been given that authority rather than earned it potentially.
So when you're a manager, you've been given authority by the business, by your position.
So if you're a team leader, a manager, a supervisor, any title that implies that you're in charge,
the business has given you authority, authority over others.
Yes.
As you said, that if you're a leader, you have earned the authority to lead because in order
to be a leader, other people need to be following you.
If no one's following you, you're just taking a walk.
Absolutely.
And the thing is, I like that actually.
But the thing is that we all know and have potentially experienced leaders who were
position-wise in the company lower than us.
And yet they have all of these qualities that make them a leader.
Which is why we want to follow those sort of people.
Correct.
Yeah.
So when we dig deeper into this authority, so managers are given authority, leaders earn
authority, so therefore they don't actually have to be in positions of power to be a leader,
which is what this whole podcast is all about, all these podcasts are about.
It's about how do you become the sort of person that other people would be inspired
to follow? How do you become the best version of yourself?
Not necessarily to want people to follow you, but to set the example.
And that's really what we get into when we dig into what leadership is.
It's a set of character traits that an individual has that makes them the sort of person other
people would be inspired to follow.
And so then I challenge my students every day, okay, what are those character traits?
What are the character traits that would make somebody the sort of person other people would
be inspired to follow? And then we end up building a large list and we've already covered a couple.
So Michelle, if you were to think about the character traits that make somebody the sort
of person other people would be inspired to follow, what would you say?
Knowledgeable, respectful, honest, definitely, integrity.
They're some of the top ones for me.
Yeah, and the ones that are the top for me, confidence, which we've already spoken about
in one of our podcasts, decisiveness, loyalty, and finding the balance in their loyalty.
So one of the things I love talking about is the importance when you're a leader or when
you're a manager of showing loyalty to the individuals in your team, the loyalty to your
team itself, but also balancing that with the loyalty to the organization because,
and this is a topic I'd love to have a whole podcast on, that when you're a leader,
when you're a manager, when you're in a position of authority, whether it's given authority or
earned authority, it's your role to make your team feel a part of an organization, not apart from
the organization, which I- That fine line of towing the company line, so to speak.
That's it, yeah. And I would even like to change that whole term, towing the company line. It
sounds like you're actually dragging it along, not willfully, but I think it's important that
leaders unite their team and unite them as part of an organization, but that's maybe a topic for
another day. The other ones I like to think about with regards to character traits are things like
approachability, respectful, like you said, honest and trustworthy, and a big one for me is integrity.
Yeah. Yeah. So these are all, I guess, the superlatives that we would use to describe
somebody who has the character of a leader, which then goes back to my original challenge to people
who say lead by example. I say, well, what does lead by example mean? And they start telling me
different things that they do. But ultimately the meaning of that term lead by example, the reason
why we follow people who lead by example, and the example isn't one thing, it's their whole character.
And the reason why you're following them is because you want to be like them. Yes. Yeah. It's
not that you like them, that you want to be like them. Obviously you did like them, but you want
to be like them. And so we followed people who have character traits that we would like to have
in ourselves. Yeah. Yeah. So I think that now lays the foundation for all of our podcasts coming up
on leadership and hopefully the ones that we've done in the past, that really what we're here to
talk about is how do you become the sort of person other people are inspired by, other people want
to follow because they want to become more like you. Michelle, can you name a leader that you know,
that possibly also knows you, that you have followed, that you've respected and then why?
Yeah. So I've been fortunate that a lot of people I've worked with have had all of these
characteristics that we mentioned or most of them. And you know, you surround yourself with these
people and they truly have inspired and also shaped the way I try to lead myself or I lead myself.
And not only in my professional life, but in my personal life. And one of them, and I know he
listens to this, but, and he will possibly laugh, but my flying instructor who taught me to fly,
Ollie Oliver Hoffman, he inspired me because he was sure he was a higher grade than me instructor
wise as a student. And then I became a junior grade three instructor, but he really held his
ground, you know, stuck by the rules, almost to the point where a lot of colleagues would bend them
slightly to make it easier. And he stuck to his ground, even if it meant the flight couldn't go,
you're going to go over time. So would you describe that as integrity? Absolutely. Yes. Integrity,
very loyal, both to his students and to the company and to the sector to, so flying is
everything for him. He really, he lives and breathes aviation, but he does it in such a way. He does
completely maintain his integrity. It does grind against others. I have seen that and it's funny,
Oliver was actually my FO. It's in aviation. You never know who you're going to work for,
who's going to work for you. So you'd be nice to everybody. And yeah, there were a couple of
flights where Ollie was my first officer. And you were the captain. I was, I know. So he started
teaching you and then you became a captain and he was your first officer for a few flights.
That's right. And that's because of seniority, the opportunity when joining the company, he joined
about eight years after me. However, there was still a lot of his lessons and the things that
made him an inspiration. Yeah. Inspirational leader to me. I tried to, he still displays those and
will always be a leader to me. But he, I really try and live up to that. I just want to clarify
something you said about Ollie. And I love that you said this, that he had integrity, even when
there was maybe pushback from other people. So he had the confidence to do the right thing,
not the popular thing. Is that what you're saying? That's it. Exactly. It's one of my favourite
aspects of talking about leaders is when you see a leader like Ollie, and I haven't had the privilege
of meeting him and hopefully we can get him on this podcast, but you say that he's had integrity
in situations where it would have been easier to do the popular thing, not the right thing. Correct.
Oh, lovely. And yourself. Well, I was, I thought about this and I've been very lucky to be
surrounded by quite a number of amazing leaders and characters. But the first two that come to mind,
and I hope I get the opportunity to talk about the other leaders over time, but the first two
that really come straight to my mind, both called Wayne. The first leader is Wayne Baker. So he
might not necessarily describe himself as a leader, but he absolutely is. And why did Wayne inspire
you? How did he inspire you? Well, I was in school. I was in year seven and a school teacher stood up
on assembly and said, would anyone like to try water polo? And being a sports nut, as you know,
and ended up playing water polo for a long time. I went and saw Wayne after the assembly and
I enrolled in the water polo program at school. And he, luckily for me, lived just around the
corner from me. He was quite a young teacher when we first met. Actually on that, I met Wayne and
didn't he say you both started at the same time? We did. Yes. We both started at the school at the
same time, him being a teacher and myself being in year seven. And I took up water polo. He was my
first water polo coach. And the thing, the many, many things I love about Wayne are his character.
So he was really one of the first people that I've learned from. He's got unconditional empathy and
compassion for all human beings. He's somebody that hasn't judged a single human being that's
walked this planet. In my personal opinion, I don't think he's ever judged anyone. I've never
heard him judging anyone. He's so accepting of everyone. He's got this beautiful family.
He's got five gorgeous kids and he's just this rock. I see him as a rock, as a human being that
if you spend time with, you will learn a lot from. Wayne has, I guess, every superlative that we read
out before. And so I felt very privileged as a young man to have had him as a coach, as a mentor.
And I now consider him a friend. I'm sure he'd be quite embarrassed me talking about him like this
in a public forum because he's also a very humble man. But he was the first person that came to mind
when I was thinking about leaders, people who have got character traits that I'd like to have in myself.
And I have mentioned to hit this to him a couple of times, but I've modeled a lot of what I aspire
to be off him. So he was the first leader that came to mind. The second one was another Wayne.
This was another Wayne involved in my sport water polo, Wayne Miranda. When I moved to Sydney,
I actually had nowhere to live. So he offered the spare room in his house. And Wayne is a former
professional rugby league. He played for Balmain Tigers. He was the most gifted sports person.
But same as Wayne Baker, Wayne Miranda had a set of character traits that
every superlative you could find in the dictionary and the thesaurus would describe him.
He again, just non-judgmental, accepting of everyone, confident. Just again, a set of
character traits that you wouldn't expect to find in one individual. And they were in the two Waynes
that got me into water polo. And Wayne Miranda was integral in having me stay in water polo as well.
And so yeah, I immediately thought of those two characters because of their character,
because of the traits that I wanted within myself was in them. And so I learned so much
from those two amazing human beings. Now I asked you to think about leaders that you don't know,
that wouldn't know you, but you know. So leaders who have been influential and who came to mind?
Richard Branson. I did meet him on...
And you flew for Virgins.
I know, I know. And I had all of his books before the interview. But Richard Branson, I did meet
when I was... Oh, that's the studio dog buddy. I met him on an overnight, the Sydney Overnights
were famous, that where he would come and he would shout the bar and so forth. And I got to say hello.
He would not remember me. And I've held onto that, you know, maybe 30 second meeting for a long time.
But just the fact that he is willing to take chances, small risks, and he... Just the way he
inspires others, it's looking at a problem, finding a solution, but getting a community
involved behind it. So leading in that style. And Sarah Blakely as well. So the fact that in 2012,
she started Spanx and it was, you know, a startup at home basically. And just her whole mantra
and integrity of maintaining her business acumen. Acumen.
Acumen, sorry, not acumen.
I thought she was a crumen.
No. And just the fact that she has, you know, there have been opportunities for her. And I don't know
her full story, but just what I've seen is that somebody who I am inspired by her leadership
qualities, again, the community feel. So she doesn't take the glory, same with Richard Branson
and other leaders. Yeah, very humble. And they praise their team, but they themselves
take the blame when something goes wrong. And I really, really admire that. Actually, a friend
of ours who we hope to have on here, he tends to lead and we see that, you know, he definitely
pushes others. He leads from the back of the pack.
So like Mandela said, you lead from the back when there's success, you lead from the front
when there's danger. Correct. And I see Brett doing that quite often. Physically.
We'll get him on the podcast. We'll get him on the podcast. I love that two of the leaders that
you've thought of are both risk takers. Coming from somebody who took many risks, learning,
not learning to fly, but building up her hours, like all of the island hopping that we spoke
about in the very first episode. I like the fact that you look at risk takers as being leaders,
because without risk takers, nothing would change.
No, you've got to push the boundaries a little. But calculated risks.
Calculated risks. Of course, every risk that Richard Branson has taken, I've read his books
twice, actually. I loved reading his book. So I never had the privilege to meet him like you did,
and you flew for him. So it's brilliant that you got to meet him. But the fact that he took risks,
that he owned who he was, he knew his limitations, he knew his strengths, and he worked to his
strengths. And how about yourself?
First person that came to mind was a sports person, Michael Jordan. I grew up idolizing
Michael Jordan, just because of his competitiveness, his drive to succeed. And I certainly wanted that
within myself. And I don't know if you know this, but I've stood about four meters from him. We're
at the Olympics in Barcelona, and we just got our accreditation passes to walk into the village.
And then all these photographers came running in and I thought, oh, we're going to take our
photograph. How good is this? We're all puffing up our chests. And then more photographers ran in,
and then all these other people ran in, and they weren't even looking at us. And then in walks the
dream team. So Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Clyde Drexler, Patrick Ewing, all of the
stars that I grew up idolizing had just walked into the room. So I didn't get to meet Michael
Jordan. But one of the things I love about Michael Jordan and the character of this man is that
his failures have been his learning. So when he's interviewed, he always pushes it back to
how he learned from his failures. And I think his relationship to failure, I think we spoke about
this in another podcast, and I'm going to repeat myself, because I really do idolize Michael Jordan
and his competitiveness. So he was the first one that came to mind. The second one is Nelson
Mandela, who we just mentioned. The whole, you lead from the front when there's danger, you lead
from the back when there's success. And so in the corporate world, I've said this to many, many
leaders that you want to be standing at the front when there's danger. So in other words, if there's
failure, you take responsibility for that failure and you own it on behalf of the team, which is
going to make your team feel safe. But when there's success, you stand at the back and you let your
team take the spotlight because ultimately it's the team that put in the effort. So Nelson Mandela,
also just the fact that his character remains strong through all of the adversity that he
went through. He was always, always able to hold his character true and his empathy for his fellow
man. Maintained his integrity, even though it wasn't the popular version. Exactly.
And then the last one, I added it to my list. I threw on an extra one is Robin Williams. I'm
a big fan of stand up comedy and he would be the number one comedian that I've always admired
because whether you're watching him perform, whether you're watching him being interviewed,
whether you're watching him in movies, I get this sense of who he really was. And I've heard and
read stories about him being in cafes late at night and people have come in and they didn't
recognise him at first. And just the way he behaved when people didn't know who he was,
or even the way he behaved when people did know who he was, he came across as this compassionate,
humble, beautiful human being that had this unbridled sense of fun. And I think all leaders
could benefit from that. And so I put Robin Williams on my list. Now I believe you've got
one more. I do. Oprah Winfrey, which I know there's a lot of media about her and she's been
for over 30 years, I suppose. She's been on my radar as being a great leader and coming from
basically like, you know, from the ashes and all of the things that happened to her growing up as
a child and then being, you know, a black lady in America and just the pushback she got and how she
maintained her, you know, true North and just kept going and striving and still the philanthropy.
And just, again, she maintains, now I don't know her personally and there may be other things, but
Oprah, if you're listening, we're welcome to have you on our podcast.
But this has been great in the fact that when you did ask me to think of the leaders that I knew
and who knew me, so who had a direct relationship to me, it got me thinking and really I have
been fortunate that I have been led by many who still I consider a fantastic influence
in both professional and personal life. And yeah, like talking about Oliver and Mum and,
you know, even who I'm working for at the moment, Ben, just the way he's able to pivot and refocus
and inclusive, you know, definitely, you know, we talk about the things that didn't work,
that did work and it's just that feeling of a trustworthy community.
Can I reflect on Oprah? One of the things that I admire about her is the fact that she has just
grown stronger from all her adversities. That's something that I know that you have done,
facing all sorts of different things along your career path, misogyny to all sorts of levels of
disrespect, but the fact that everything that stood in your way made you a stronger human being and
you talk about the anti-fragility that's given you. So yeah, I can understand why you look up to Oprah
because she certainly has character traits that you yourself have, Michelle, and who I also look
up to. All right, so I guess we'll finish off this podcast and it's gone a little bit over time, but
just reiterating that you're a leader when you have a set of character traits that we would call
superlatives that other people want in themselves. So you're leading by an example. They want those
character traits in them and so they follow you. You could be a manager, you're given authority by
the business, but to be a leader, even if you don't have authority, these character traits that we're
going to be discussing at length in many podcasts are the character traits that you want to work on,
which makes you the sort of person other people would be inspired to follow. One thing I want to
point out is that no matter where you are, how old or young you are, there is always somebody watching
you. So there is always an opportunity to inspire someone. Absolutely, yeah, and what a great way to
spend our lives inspiring others. Yes. Yes. All right, so how are we going to sign off? Have we
decided on a sign off? No. More dogs? Yes, more dogs. The world is a better place with more dogs.
Yeah, the world is a better place with more dogs. And if you could hear Buddy, the studio dog,
snoring in the background and embarking for some water before, but yeah, the world would be a better
place with more dogs. Yes, okay. All right, have a great week, Michelle. You too, guys. Bye.
So Michelle, where can they find us? Captainandtheclown.com. Where you'll find links to our
websites for keynote speaking and corporate training. Yes, that's captainandtheclown.com.
Well, that was fun. That was fun. You're such a clown. The clown. Lady captain.
And who's going to listen to this? Maybe I'm not. Thanks, mom.