Why did it count backwards?
Oh no, we're now recording.
What? Hello Captain.
Come fly with me, let's fly, let's fly.
What are we going to talk about?
I don't know. Leadership, life and everything else.
Yeah.
And we're live.
No, we're recording.
Oh okay, we're recording. Welcome aboard Captain and the Clown.
A podcast on life, leadership and everything else.
Today's destination.
Confidence.
Confidence, confidence. Okay, what have you been up to lately?
I'm Michelle, your guy.
I forgot that bit. Hi Michelle.
Hi guy. You're the captain.
Yeah and you're obviously the clown.
Yeah absolutely.
Absolutely.
Okay, what have I been up to? Well I am here in Darwin with you.
Yes, yes I've come up here to do some work. I've got a client up here so doing some resilience
training. That was fun.
Excellent, yes and thank you for letting me tell one of my stories during the course.
Yeah, no that was a brilliant story. I love hearing your stories.
Oh they were a great group too. Very engaged and they gave a lot back.
They did, they did. So confidence.
Yes.
Were you always a confident person?
No and still there are times when I am not feeling confident.
Really?
Yeah.
Oh you look very confident.
No, no.
You've always come across as a very confident person.
I fake it well then.
Do you?
I do, I do. Yeah I was, look I grew up as a tall, skinny, awkward, almost like a giraffe
on roller skates sort of thing. Yeah no, not confident at all.
I didn't fit in.
Well I find that hard to believe. Knowing you now, I didn't know you as a child but yeah,
okay.
Yeah, how about yourself?
No, no I had no confidence. I always joke with people, it's not a joke, it's true.
I used to be a shy, sensitive, insecure little sook. I'm still a sook, I cry in movies but
I'm not shy anymore. But yeah no, I had massive insecurities as a kid and even as a young man.
Even when the point when I was playing elite sport, I had massive insecurities. The kids
would say things to me at school and I would go home crying, all sorts of insecurities.
And it was horrible, I hated it.
Yeah, yeah. No, I can identify with that definitely. And even growing up, if there was something
new, there'd always be that hesitation because I wasn't confident. It was either a new group
of people, a new activity, first day of school, first day of uni, that sort of thing. My confidence,
it really took a long time to get into my group so to speak and feel confident in that situation.
So we chose this topic because you follow confident people and nobody wants to feel insecure.
No, no and leaders are confident.
Well they need to be confident.
That's right.
A lot of them aren't and they cover that up with silly behaviours.
That's right, immediately comes to mind a couple of ex-captains, well captains,
that I know that were definitely not confident but were leaders by title in the role.
So tried to hide their lack of confidence with other behaviours.
Yeah, not nice behaviours.
No, bluster and all that sort of stuff.
So what is confidence? I've been interested in this topic for a long time because as an insecure
kid didn't want to be insecure. So I went on a bit of a journey to try and find out what confidence
was and at first I thought it was about being good at stuff. So go out and learn stuff and
then I discovered that that's not actually true confidence because that means that you can only
be confident in that area that you're good at. So if you become good at a particular skill or
particular area of knowledge, you can only feel confident in that area because it's contextual.
But true confidence is where you can be confident in situations where maybe you know nothing.
Absolutely, yes, yes and I'm now thinking of actually a situation I hadn't thought about
for ages where when I was training to become a captain, I knew everything in the books.
Like I could tell you off by heart, verbatim, all of the manuals, all of the figures, the whole thing
and yet my confidence was low because I didn't feel like, especially in the training, I hadn't
tried it on even though I'd been flying for so long prior. It was just that lack of confidence,
which obviously the training captains could see and that was the main critique or feedback
that I got. You know your shit really well, you know everything really well, you could pull apart
in the air crowd almost and put it back together but it's that confidence and that's what I needed
to work on. So you weren't there, you knew your stuff but you just didn't have the confidence
No, that's right and so it was only after talking to a mentor of mine and a female captain
and she was just saying you know this stuff, it's that fear of judgment basically.
That's it.
It's what it was and once I spoke with her and you know just over coffee and she was telling me
some of her stories and how she approached things, it was like aha, I get it now.
Yeah, yeah. I had a similar journey, I was getting good at stuff but I was still shitting myself
internally. I learned to public speak because I nearly passed out the first time I had to do it
at university and then I started to get good at it, started to practice it but I was still internally
really nervous and then I discovered that it's not about being good at stuff, it's about when you
stop fearing the judgment of other people as you said. So confident people don't fear the judgment
of others, don't fear the judgment of others. That's right, they're aware of others but it's not
the excuse me, it doesn't hold you back. No, no. Yeah, so when we get good at things, we're confident
in that skill but self-confidence comes from when you have a mindset shift and you don't fear other
people's judgment and one of the ways that I was able to achieve that is by realizing that people
don't judge me, they actually judge themselves through me. I'm just their catalyst of their
judgment and I'll explain it in a deeper way in a moment but once I start to realize that being
good at stuff wasn't going to be the path, I needed to work on my internal mindset, I need to stop
fearing the judgment of others. Now there is a bit of a danger here because you can stop caring
and that's not what I'm saying. I'm not saying you don't care about people's judgment, you've got to
care about people, I care deeply about people, I just do not fear their judgment and so once I start
to get that mindset that I'm every day just going to do my best and really they're judging
themselves through me and I'll give you an example, I was running a training course and they'd set up
the room so there was a tiny little area for me at the front behind this desk and it just it was
cramped and the audience, the participants in this course were in a semicircle behind the desk and
there was some space there so I went around and I started training in front of the desk instead
behind the desk where they'd set me up and the lady that had actually set up the room said,
oh why aren't you standing up there? It was a fantastic opportunity because we were talking
about confidence in this course and I said, well why do you want me to stand up there? She said,
because that's where I would and I said okay so you're judging where I stand in the room. She said,
yeah, I said well actually you're not, you're judging yourself. She went what? And so it was
a great opportunity to talk to the class about how she needed me to stand at the front of the class
because that's what she would do. That would make her feel valid in what she would do. It had nothing
to do with me. I was saying where I wanted to be. She wanted me to stand somewhere else because that
would make her feel comfortable about where she would be if she was doing my job. So she was
judging herself through me and it's a really empowering thought to think that people don't
judge you. They judge themselves through you and then if you stop fearing their judgment then
it frees up all of your neural resources to do whatever it is that you're there to do. So almost
their expectation isn't necessarily a performance expectation. It's the technique or the process
expectation. Yeah, yeah you can put it that way absolutely. Yeah.
Yeah so have you got any hacks for how to improve confidence? Oh absolutely. So body language is a
big one. You see people and even yourself like physically if you're walking around
shoulders hunched looking down obviously uncomfortable and it's you know you try and
make yourself smaller which I'm guilty of doing especially when I was younger you know and growing
up being so tall. Yeah and you're tiny compared to me. So just that the act of putting your shoulders
back your head up and taking in a big deep breath you physically you know you're getting oxygen to
your brain so you feel better and the blood starting to flow but that just that feeling of
being larger. So Tony Robbins does it in some of his courses where it's you know the power pose
basically where you do a and you can adopt the pose whatever it is some people do like Superman
arms or you know punch or do like a ninja warrior sort of thing whatever it is that you want to do
and you can do it in private or public. Yeah I did mine in private. You can just almost like wearing
metaphorically thank you wearing your undies on the outside. Yes which I did when I was in the circus.
You did actually there are photos. Evidence it's on the internet. That's right and it reminds me of
a bad dream I used to have as a kid but it was that that thing of making yourself larger than life
so that you can then go out and own it. Amy Cuddy talks about it in that TED talk. You've seen that
one the body language one. Yes so she got people into her into her study got them to stand either
in powerful positions or more insecure positions and measured their hormone levels and she she
showed that there's a relationship between how you hold your body and the hormones that are in your
body so if you stand tall confidently your body is going to produce testosterone and reduce your
cortisol levels which is a stress hormone but if you sit or hunched over or stand or hunched over
make yourself smaller like you said it changes your hormone levels you get less testosterone and
you have more cortisol the stress hormone so I use that before I get on stage so I'll stand in the
wings make sure no one can see me and I close my eyes and I just pretend to be taller. I pretend
that I'm growing I pretend that I've got wings I grow and I just feel my energy rising so when I
get on stage I feel confident and big yeah I like that one. Yeah I also smile so that's another
technique I use and anyone who knows me knows that I smile a lot. You smile all the time
you don't stop smiling it's brilliant. But that's that's another technique so it's that smile it's
really hard to feel insecure or nervous with that smile and even smiling 30 seconds you feel you feel
happy yes and and happier and more at ease so yes. Another great hack I've heard is chew chewing gum
yeah don't do it in meetings don't do it around people that you want to come across as professional
but the act of chewing gum is when you're chewing it sends a signal to your brain that you're safe
because when we used to live in tribes wandering around you know before we have these lovely
buildings and we only sat down to eat around our campfire when we were safe so the act of chewing
when we were safe so the act of chewing actually sends a signal to your brain hey I must be safe
because I'm eating and so if you chew gum again not in meetings not in presentations but you chew
gum it sends a signal to your brain that you're actually in a safe position so you're not going
to feel as nervous and I guess that's why we have comfort eating because when you comfort eat it
lowers your stress levels but yeah I like that one as well. I'm not a gum chewer I don't know
if I'd adopt that one but yeah yeah I'm not I'm just not yeah never it works for me.
Yeah I suppose it's my internal judgment of people who turn up to meetings etc.
Ah yes, chewing gum don't do it in meetings. No no that's right.
I now look at I suppose another another thing that I have worked yeah a hack that I've worked
on with confidence or increasing my confidence or gaining confidence where I didn't prior was
criticism and critiquing. Oh so that sensitivity. Yeah yeah so if I had received any um sensitive
sensitivity if I'd received any uh a critique for example on my performance on anything
now know that I am the worst critic of my life that there is as far as of myself that's right.
So you don't come across as critical of anyone. But it's um so no there's nothing anyone can say
that's worse than what my internal you know head messages are saying. Which might be something we
need to talk about in another podcast. That's right however what I have done is I've rewired
my perception of um critiquing as feedback. So rather than hearing oh this is bad and and take
it personally that I have done bad I look at what they've said feedback wise and if it is coming
across as an attack I um and I'm starting to feel attacked I ask questions. Yes. So I need more
clarification so rather than being a personal thing I do clarify so it becomes feedback and I
can use that information it's a feedback loop. Okay. And that has rewired that so I can still
maintain my ego can maintain confidence and I can then work on that in the background. Yeah so
confident people see feedback as information. Correct. Yeah so like Shakespeare said there is
nothing good or bad but thinking makes it so. Yes. So it's information coming your way you get
to determine whether you label it as criticism or whether you label it as information and if it's
information without any emotional reaction inside I guess um you can then choose to use that
information to improve change adjust or continue the way you've done things I guess. Yeah I like
that. It's really helpful especially if if there is an emotional attachment to the person that is
giving that feedback so again removing yourself or removing the emotion from it and looking at
purely feedback now that may mean I need to physically remove myself from that conversation
for five minutes an hour a day whatever um and text is the worst. Yeah. But the um the ability
to look at it as you said as information yeah so that that definitely gives me confidence.
I didn't like being wrong as a kid um so that was one thing that I had to adjust uh because I feared
people's judgment so I thought that when they were saying that I was wrong that I was wrong
not that the thought that I had was wrong. Yeah. And so one of the things I've done is to remove
or separate my ego from my thoughts so if you say hey guy that's wrong I'll go okay interesting tell
me about how you see it and just because you've told me that I'm wrong doesn't mean I'm going to
instantly believe you but I'm going to now listen to you and listen to your arguments and listen to
your point of view and then I can weigh it up against the thought that I've had and then I can
make my own judgment on whether I believe that the way I think is right or not. The other thing I've
noticed is years ago when people said I was wrong I did start to listen to them more often than when
I was a fancy little insecure kid um and I found that originally I would then if I thought that
they were wrong I'd try and convince them that they were wrong and I realized over the years
that that wasn't me being confident that was me being insecure because I needed other people to
think what I thought in order for me to feel confident. Yeah yeah and you see that a lot
where people are you know really forcing their ideas onto people and it's not because they're
right it's just that insecurity of them being wrong. They need other people to think the same
in order for them to feel confident yeah now I like that one. What about mistakes how did you
how did you feel about mistake making mistakes when you were younger? Similar to you in the
fact that I took it as a um a personal attack I suppose in in um if I made a mistake again I was
really really hard on myself um and however and and sometimes I got to the stage actually where
if I did enough mistakes or I was being um berated in my mind by others I would then almost stop
attempting anymore because it was easier. Okay. And I see that in kids you know um depending on
who their teacher is or or how they've um they're being parented or guided you see kids just give
up because it's easier than going through the mistakes. They've got a fixed mindset. They do
they do but now yeah I'm uh fortunate that you know you you like the community that you hang around
and um my community are very very supportive of um giving a go so rather than seeing it as a mistake
it's an opportunity to have a go. Okay it didn't work that time let's have another go. Reminds me
of one of my favorite sports people Michael Jordan um he would be interviewed and they'd be praising
him and telling him how great he is and how great he was when he was playing basketball and all of
his achievements and I love the fact that every single interview he always directs the conversation
back to how many times he failed because his relationship to when he failed where he didn't
make the winning shot on the buzzer his relationship to it is fantastic and it's a great lesson for
everyone because instead of seeing it as a failure he saw it as his training ground his opportunity
to become the best in the world like he did and so he's very happy to point out when he failed
because he sees that all those failures as when he became better and and if we can get that into
our kids heads that when you fail you're learning there's no such thing as failure there's only
learning and I hope this is true it's on the internet so it must be true but Thomas Edison
who invented the light globe he had lots of patents he tried lots of different ways to make the
light globe and again I've heard the number 10 000 uh and I've read a story where a journalist
said to Mr Edison Mr Edison how do you feel about failing 10 000 times and Mr Edison said sir I did
not fail 10 000 times I found 10 000 things that do not work and I think if that's a true story if
that's real it's on it's on the internet so it's gotta be real um what a fantastic and confident
way maybe a little bit arrogant as well but that's a fantastic way of showing that the failures are
where we learn and where we grow from and so we shouldn't fear failure should we no but you see
well unfortunately on social media um you do see just the heavily filtered successes and you don't
see all of the the grit and determination and the failures and the things that didn't quite work or
they flopped on the way um which is a pity because that's part of the journey it is anyway well there
are people who do it well they they show the whole journey but yeah yeah it's it's a trap I think that
people fall into so there is almost that false confidence of you know and and so then if you're
trying to give it a go um you see these people who are succeeding all the time um yet you know
underneath the filters yeah and see all those values yeah yeah especially all the videos where
they've may have recorded it a hundred times before they posted it online exactly yeah so I think the
and and you know leaders have they're not born confident no it's a it's a learned skill and some
of the hacks that we've suggested um can help and even incorporating a little bit to aid some you
know or add to your confidence or help with confidence building can then set you on the path
to becoming more confident and being a confident leader and instilling confidence in others there's
one thing I'd like to see more leaders do actually everyone do is when they do make a mistake so
let's say you've promised to do something for somebody and you forget to do it or you're late
with an email that you had to send through many many people when they're when you know somebody
calls them out on their mistake hey you didn't call me back on Tuesday or you didn't get that
email to me instead of following the process I'll teach you in a moment that what they do is is they
say oh I'm sorry you know or they say oh I was busy they start to defend themselves but a confident
person when they're when they've been pointed out when it's pointed out that they've made a mistake
the very first thing that they should do is own it yeah I did say I was going to call you on Tuesday
and I should have called you um and then you fix it and you say oh well I'm going to fix that by
working with you now and then then you apologize you go yeah and I apologize I didn't call you
back when I said I would yeah so I call awful own it fix it apologize and learn from it so it doesn't
happen again and and if we had more people doing that I'm very lucky I've made some big mistakes in
my career and I've had the opportunity to do this where you own it straight away you said yes I've
made a mistake there I'm going to fix it and I apologize I didn't do that and it's interesting
when you walk away from giving the person awful owning it fixing it apologize and and then you
learn from it your self-esteem goes up your confidence goes up because you know you've done
the right thing but if you defend yourself or if you say sorry that sorry isn't for them no that
sorry is for you it's like saying to somebody hey I'm sorry please don't be angry at me I don't like
it when you're angry at me they're not really saying sorry for the other person it's almost
like pleading don't don't be angry but if somebody if you've made a mistake the other person is going
to be a little bit angry or a bit frustrated and so you just need to own it I made a mistake yeah
I'm going to fix it but and you give them the opportunity to come back with something after
owning it because it's part of that feedback loop yeah so more information and then you know if they
they're still allowed to be upset they're still allowed to be disappointed and you can get that
feedback but you're confident in owning yeah your error your mistake yep definitely okay
So we're up to nearly 22 minutes and I think that might be enough for the first podcast on confidence
yeah I think we could probably go down this rabbit hole a bit deeper with confidence I think there's
a lot more to learn about it yeah there are a couple of people that come to mind I'd love to
interview just they come across as very confident leaders and I love their style and just how they
make those people around them that they are leading fields yeah yeah because you follow confident
people definitely well you always say that length is important so that might be the end of this
first podcast on confidence so where can people find us okay if they go to captainandtheclown.com
you can see all of our contact details if you want to book Guy, All Myself for a Keynote Speaking or
Training in Leadership Resilience and many other things or just follow us on the social so you can
keep up with the stuff what we're doing yeah and also please reach out if you've got anything that
you'd like to discuss with us that you'd like us to discuss yeah we're open to all suggestions
if you're interested in even coming on the podcast and discussing these topics like
leadership and everything else because we've really limited ourselves with those three topics
so how are we going to sign off how are we going to sign off on these podcasts what do we say
enjoy the journey
I don't know have a great week you too okay bye well that was fun that was fun
you're such a clown
and who's gonna listen to this maybe I'm not thanks mom