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Why did it count backwards?

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Oh no, we're now recording.

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What? Hello Captain.

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Come fly with me, let's fly, let's fly.

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What are we going to talk about?

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I don't know. Leadership, life and everything else.

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Yeah.

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And we're live.

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No, we're recording.

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Oh okay, we're recording. Welcome aboard Captain and the Clown.

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A podcast on life, leadership and everything else.

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Today's destination.

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Confidence.

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Confidence, confidence. Okay, what have you been up to lately?

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I'm Michelle, your guy.

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I forgot that bit. Hi Michelle.

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Hi guy. You're the captain.

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Yeah and you're obviously the clown.

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Yeah absolutely.

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Absolutely.

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Okay, what have I been up to? Well I am here in Darwin with you.

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Yes, yes I've come up here to do some work. I've got a client up here so doing some resilience

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training. That was fun.

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Excellent, yes and thank you for letting me tell one of my stories during the course.

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Yeah, no that was a brilliant story. I love hearing your stories.

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Oh they were a great group too. Very engaged and they gave a lot back.

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They did, they did. So confidence.

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Yes.

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Were you always a confident person?

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No and still there are times when I am not feeling confident.

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Really?

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Yeah.

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Oh you look very confident.

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No, no.

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You've always come across as a very confident person.

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I fake it well then.

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Do you?

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I do, I do. Yeah I was, look I grew up as a tall, skinny, awkward, almost like a giraffe

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on roller skates sort of thing. Yeah no, not confident at all.

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I didn't fit in.

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Well I find that hard to believe. Knowing you now, I didn't know you as a child but yeah,

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okay.

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Yeah, how about yourself?

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No, no I had no confidence. I always joke with people, it's not a joke, it's true.

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I used to be a shy, sensitive, insecure little sook. I'm still a sook, I cry in movies but

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I'm not shy anymore. But yeah no, I had massive insecurities as a kid and even as a young man.

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Even when the point when I was playing elite sport, I had massive insecurities. The kids

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would say things to me at school and I would go home crying, all sorts of insecurities.

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And it was horrible, I hated it.

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Yeah, yeah. No, I can identify with that definitely. And even growing up, if there was something

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new, there'd always be that hesitation because I wasn't confident. It was either a new group

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of people, a new activity, first day of school, first day of uni, that sort of thing. My confidence,

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it really took a long time to get into my group so to speak and feel confident in that situation.

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So we chose this topic because you follow confident people and nobody wants to feel insecure.

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No, no and leaders are confident.

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Well they need to be confident.

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That's right.

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A lot of them aren't and they cover that up with silly behaviours.

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That's right, immediately comes to mind a couple of ex-captains, well captains,

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that I know that were definitely not confident but were leaders by title in the role.

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So tried to hide their lack of confidence with other behaviours.

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Yeah, not nice behaviours.

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No, bluster and all that sort of stuff.

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So what is confidence? I've been interested in this topic for a long time because as an insecure

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kid didn't want to be insecure. So I went on a bit of a journey to try and find out what confidence

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was and at first I thought it was about being good at stuff. So go out and learn stuff and

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then I discovered that that's not actually true confidence because that means that you can only

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be confident in that area that you're good at. So if you become good at a particular skill or

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particular area of knowledge, you can only feel confident in that area because it's contextual.

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But true confidence is where you can be confident in situations where maybe you know nothing.

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Absolutely, yes, yes and I'm now thinking of actually a situation I hadn't thought about

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for ages where when I was training to become a captain, I knew everything in the books.

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Like I could tell you off by heart, verbatim, all of the manuals, all of the figures, the whole thing

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and yet my confidence was low because I didn't feel like, especially in the training, I hadn't

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tried it on even though I'd been flying for so long prior. It was just that lack of confidence,

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which obviously the training captains could see and that was the main critique or feedback

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that I got. You know your shit really well, you know everything really well, you could pull apart

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in the air crowd almost and put it back together but it's that confidence and that's what I needed

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to work on. So you weren't there, you knew your stuff but you just didn't have the confidence

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No, that's right and so it was only after talking to a mentor of mine and a female captain

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and she was just saying you know this stuff, it's that fear of judgment basically.

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That's it.

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It's what it was and once I spoke with her and you know just over coffee and she was telling me

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some of her stories and how she approached things, it was like aha, I get it now.

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Yeah, yeah. I had a similar journey, I was getting good at stuff but I was still shitting myself

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internally. I learned to public speak because I nearly passed out the first time I had to do it

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at university and then I started to get good at it, started to practice it but I was still internally

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really nervous and then I discovered that it's not about being good at stuff, it's about when you

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stop fearing the judgment of other people as you said. So confident people don't fear the judgment

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of others, don't fear the judgment of others. That's right, they're aware of others but it's not

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the excuse me, it doesn't hold you back. No, no. Yeah, so when we get good at things, we're confident

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in that skill but self-confidence comes from when you have a mindset shift and you don't fear other

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people's judgment and one of the ways that I was able to achieve that is by realizing that people

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don't judge me, they actually judge themselves through me. I'm just their catalyst of their

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judgment and I'll explain it in a deeper way in a moment but once I start to realize that being

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good at stuff wasn't going to be the path, I needed to work on my internal mindset, I need to stop

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fearing the judgment of others. Now there is a bit of a danger here because you can stop caring

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and that's not what I'm saying. I'm not saying you don't care about people's judgment, you've got to

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care about people, I care deeply about people, I just do not fear their judgment and so once I start

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to get that mindset that I'm every day just going to do my best and really they're judging

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themselves through me and I'll give you an example, I was running a training course and they'd set up

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the room so there was a tiny little area for me at the front behind this desk and it just it was

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cramped and the audience, the participants in this course were in a semicircle behind the desk and

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there was some space there so I went around and I started training in front of the desk instead

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behind the desk where they'd set me up and the lady that had actually set up the room said,

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oh why aren't you standing up there? It was a fantastic opportunity because we were talking

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about confidence in this course and I said, well why do you want me to stand up there? She said,

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because that's where I would and I said okay so you're judging where I stand in the room. She said,

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yeah, I said well actually you're not, you're judging yourself. She went what? And so it was

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a great opportunity to talk to the class about how she needed me to stand at the front of the class

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because that's what she would do. That would make her feel valid in what she would do. It had nothing

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to do with me. I was saying where I wanted to be. She wanted me to stand somewhere else because that

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would make her feel comfortable about where she would be if she was doing my job. So she was

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judging herself through me and it's a really empowering thought to think that people don't

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judge you. They judge themselves through you and then if you stop fearing their judgment then

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it frees up all of your neural resources to do whatever it is that you're there to do. So almost

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their expectation isn't necessarily a performance expectation. It's the technique or the process

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expectation. Yeah, yeah you can put it that way absolutely. Yeah.

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Yeah so have you got any hacks for how to improve confidence? Oh absolutely. So body language is a

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big one. You see people and even yourself like physically if you're walking around

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shoulders hunched looking down obviously uncomfortable and it's you know you try and

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make yourself smaller which I'm guilty of doing especially when I was younger you know and growing

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up being so tall. Yeah and you're tiny compared to me. So just that the act of putting your shoulders

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back your head up and taking in a big deep breath you physically you know you're getting oxygen to

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your brain so you feel better and the blood starting to flow but that just that feeling of

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being larger. So Tony Robbins does it in some of his courses where it's you know the power pose

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basically where you do a and you can adopt the pose whatever it is some people do like Superman

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arms or you know punch or do like a ninja warrior sort of thing whatever it is that you want to do

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and you can do it in private or public. Yeah I did mine in private. You can just almost like wearing

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metaphorically thank you wearing your undies on the outside. Yes which I did when I was in the circus.

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You did actually there are photos. Evidence it's on the internet. That's right and it reminds me of

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a bad dream I used to have as a kid but it was that that thing of making yourself larger than life

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so that you can then go out and own it. Amy Cuddy talks about it in that TED talk. You've seen that

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one the body language one. Yes so she got people into her into her study got them to stand either

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in powerful positions or more insecure positions and measured their hormone levels and she she

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showed that there's a relationship between how you hold your body and the hormones that are in your

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body so if you stand tall confidently your body is going to produce testosterone and reduce your

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cortisol levels which is a stress hormone but if you sit or hunched over or stand or hunched over

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make yourself smaller like you said it changes your hormone levels you get less testosterone and

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you have more cortisol the stress hormone so I use that before I get on stage so I'll stand in the

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wings make sure no one can see me and I close my eyes and I just pretend to be taller. I pretend

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that I'm growing I pretend that I've got wings I grow and I just feel my energy rising so when I

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get on stage I feel confident and big yeah I like that one. Yeah I also smile so that's another

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technique I use and anyone who knows me knows that I smile a lot. You smile all the time

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you don't stop smiling it's brilliant. But that's that's another technique so it's that smile it's

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really hard to feel insecure or nervous with that smile and even smiling 30 seconds you feel you feel

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happy yes and and happier and more at ease so yes. Another great hack I've heard is chew chewing gum

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yeah don't do it in meetings don't do it around people that you want to come across as professional

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but the act of chewing gum is when you're chewing it sends a signal to your brain that you're safe

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because when we used to live in tribes wandering around you know before we have these lovely

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buildings and we only sat down to eat around our campfire when we were safe so the act of chewing

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when we were safe so the act of chewing actually sends a signal to your brain hey I must be safe

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because I'm eating and so if you chew gum again not in meetings not in presentations but you chew

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gum it sends a signal to your brain that you're actually in a safe position so you're not going

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to feel as nervous and I guess that's why we have comfort eating because when you comfort eat it

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lowers your stress levels but yeah I like that one as well. I'm not a gum chewer I don't know

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if I'd adopt that one but yeah yeah I'm not I'm just not yeah never it works for me.

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Yeah I suppose it's my internal judgment of people who turn up to meetings etc.

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Ah yes, chewing gum don't do it in meetings. No no that's right.

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I now look at I suppose another another thing that I have worked yeah a hack that I've worked

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on with confidence or increasing my confidence or gaining confidence where I didn't prior was

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criticism and critiquing. Oh so that sensitivity. Yeah yeah so if I had received any um sensitive

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sensitivity if I'd received any uh a critique for example on my performance on anything

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now know that I am the worst critic of my life that there is as far as of myself that's right.

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So you don't come across as critical of anyone. But it's um so no there's nothing anyone can say

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that's worse than what my internal you know head messages are saying. Which might be something we

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need to talk about in another podcast. That's right however what I have done is I've rewired

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my perception of um critiquing as feedback. So rather than hearing oh this is bad and and take

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it personally that I have done bad I look at what they've said feedback wise and if it is coming

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across as an attack I um and I'm starting to feel attacked I ask questions. Yes. So I need more

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clarification so rather than being a personal thing I do clarify so it becomes feedback and I

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can use that information it's a feedback loop. Okay. And that has rewired that so I can still

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maintain my ego can maintain confidence and I can then work on that in the background. Yeah so

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confident people see feedback as information. Correct. Yeah so like Shakespeare said there is

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nothing good or bad but thinking makes it so. Yes. So it's information coming your way you get

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to determine whether you label it as criticism or whether you label it as information and if it's

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information without any emotional reaction inside I guess um you can then choose to use that

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information to improve change adjust or continue the way you've done things I guess. Yeah I like

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that. It's really helpful especially if if there is an emotional attachment to the person that is

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giving that feedback so again removing yourself or removing the emotion from it and looking at

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purely feedback now that may mean I need to physically remove myself from that conversation

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for five minutes an hour a day whatever um and text is the worst. Yeah. But the um the ability

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to look at it as you said as information yeah so that that definitely gives me confidence.

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I didn't like being wrong as a kid um so that was one thing that I had to adjust uh because I feared

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people's judgment so I thought that when they were saying that I was wrong that I was wrong

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not that the thought that I had was wrong. Yeah. And so one of the things I've done is to remove

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or separate my ego from my thoughts so if you say hey guy that's wrong I'll go okay interesting tell

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me about how you see it and just because you've told me that I'm wrong doesn't mean I'm going to

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instantly believe you but I'm going to now listen to you and listen to your arguments and listen to

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your point of view and then I can weigh it up against the thought that I've had and then I can

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make my own judgment on whether I believe that the way I think is right or not. The other thing I've

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noticed is years ago when people said I was wrong I did start to listen to them more often than when

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I was a fancy little insecure kid um and I found that originally I would then if I thought that

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they were wrong I'd try and convince them that they were wrong and I realized over the years

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that that wasn't me being confident that was me being insecure because I needed other people to

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think what I thought in order for me to feel confident. Yeah yeah and you see that a lot

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where people are you know really forcing their ideas onto people and it's not because they're

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right it's just that insecurity of them being wrong. They need other people to think the same

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in order for them to feel confident yeah now I like that one. What about mistakes how did you

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how did you feel about mistake making mistakes when you were younger? Similar to you in the

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fact that I took it as a um a personal attack I suppose in in um if I made a mistake again I was

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really really hard on myself um and however and and sometimes I got to the stage actually where

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if I did enough mistakes or I was being um berated in my mind by others I would then almost stop

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attempting anymore because it was easier. Okay. And I see that in kids you know um depending on

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who their teacher is or or how they've um they're being parented or guided you see kids just give

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up because it's easier than going through the mistakes. They've got a fixed mindset. They do

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they do but now yeah I'm uh fortunate that you know you you like the community that you hang around

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and um my community are very very supportive of um giving a go so rather than seeing it as a mistake

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it's an opportunity to have a go. Okay it didn't work that time let's have another go. Reminds me

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of one of my favorite sports people Michael Jordan um he would be interviewed and they'd be praising

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him and telling him how great he is and how great he was when he was playing basketball and all of

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his achievements and I love the fact that every single interview he always directs the conversation

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back to how many times he failed because his relationship to when he failed where he didn't

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make the winning shot on the buzzer his relationship to it is fantastic and it's a great lesson for

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everyone because instead of seeing it as a failure he saw it as his training ground his opportunity

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to become the best in the world like he did and so he's very happy to point out when he failed

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because he sees that all those failures as when he became better and and if we can get that into

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our kids heads that when you fail you're learning there's no such thing as failure there's only

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learning and I hope this is true it's on the internet so it must be true but Thomas Edison

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who invented the light globe he had lots of patents he tried lots of different ways to make the

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light globe and again I've heard the number 10 000 uh and I've read a story where a journalist

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said to Mr Edison Mr Edison how do you feel about failing 10 000 times and Mr Edison said sir I did

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not fail 10 000 times I found 10 000 things that do not work and I think if that's a true story if

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that's real it's on it's on the internet so it's gotta be real um what a fantastic and confident

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way maybe a little bit arrogant as well but that's a fantastic way of showing that the failures are

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where we learn and where we grow from and so we shouldn't fear failure should we no but you see

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well unfortunately on social media um you do see just the heavily filtered successes and you don't

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see all of the the grit and determination and the failures and the things that didn't quite work or

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they flopped on the way um which is a pity because that's part of the journey it is anyway well there

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are people who do it well they they show the whole journey but yeah yeah it's it's a trap I think that

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people fall into so there is almost that false confidence of you know and and so then if you're

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trying to give it a go um you see these people who are succeeding all the time um yet you know

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underneath the filters yeah and see all those values yeah yeah especially all the videos where

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they've may have recorded it a hundred times before they posted it online exactly yeah so I think the

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and and you know leaders have they're not born confident no it's a it's a learned skill and some

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of the hacks that we've suggested um can help and even incorporating a little bit to aid some you

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know or add to your confidence or help with confidence building can then set you on the path

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to becoming more confident and being a confident leader and instilling confidence in others there's

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one thing I'd like to see more leaders do actually everyone do is when they do make a mistake so

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let's say you've promised to do something for somebody and you forget to do it or you're late

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with an email that you had to send through many many people when they're when you know somebody

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calls them out on their mistake hey you didn't call me back on Tuesday or you didn't get that

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email to me instead of following the process I'll teach you in a moment that what they do is is they

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say oh I'm sorry you know or they say oh I was busy they start to defend themselves but a confident

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person when they're when they've been pointed out when it's pointed out that they've made a mistake

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the very first thing that they should do is own it yeah I did say I was going to call you on Tuesday

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and I should have called you um and then you fix it and you say oh well I'm going to fix that by

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working with you now and then then you apologize you go yeah and I apologize I didn't call you

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back when I said I would yeah so I call awful own it fix it apologize and learn from it so it doesn't

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happen again and and if we had more people doing that I'm very lucky I've made some big mistakes in

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my career and I've had the opportunity to do this where you own it straight away you said yes I've

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made a mistake there I'm going to fix it and I apologize I didn't do that and it's interesting

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when you walk away from giving the person awful owning it fixing it apologize and and then you

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learn from it your self-esteem goes up your confidence goes up because you know you've done

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the right thing but if you defend yourself or if you say sorry that sorry isn't for them no that

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sorry is for you it's like saying to somebody hey I'm sorry please don't be angry at me I don't like

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it when you're angry at me they're not really saying sorry for the other person it's almost

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like pleading don't don't be angry but if somebody if you've made a mistake the other person is going

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to be a little bit angry or a bit frustrated and so you just need to own it I made a mistake yeah

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I'm going to fix it but and you give them the opportunity to come back with something after

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owning it because it's part of that feedback loop yeah so more information and then you know if they

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they're still allowed to be upset they're still allowed to be disappointed and you can get that

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feedback but you're confident in owning yeah your error your mistake yep definitely okay

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So we're up to nearly 22 minutes and I think that might be enough for the first podcast on confidence

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yeah I think we could probably go down this rabbit hole a bit deeper with confidence I think there's

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a lot more to learn about it yeah there are a couple of people that come to mind I'd love to

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interview just they come across as very confident leaders and I love their style and just how they

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make those people around them that they are leading fields yeah yeah because you follow confident

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people definitely well you always say that length is important so that might be the end of this

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first podcast on confidence so where can people find us okay if they go to captainandtheclown.com

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you can see all of our contact details if you want to book Guy, All Myself for a Keynote Speaking or

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Training in Leadership Resilience and many other things or just follow us on the social so you can

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keep up with the stuff what we're doing yeah and also please reach out if you've got anything that

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you'd like to discuss with us that you'd like us to discuss yeah we're open to all suggestions

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if you're interested in even coming on the podcast and discussing these topics like

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leadership and everything else because we've really limited ourselves with those three topics

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so how are we going to sign off how are we going to sign off on these podcasts what do we say

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enjoy the journey

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I don't know have a great week you too okay bye well that was fun that was fun

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you're such a clown

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and who's gonna listen to this maybe I'm not thanks mom