G'day leaders. We had to overcome some perfectionism
to get this podcast to you. We've been trying
some video and it didn't work and we had to give
ourselves a big kick up the bum to get another
podcast out because as you'll hear in this podcast,
we've been aiming for perfectionism, which has
been a silly thing. We're going to share with
you some strategies on overcoming perfectionism
while we do it and hopefully learn some stuff
along the way. Enjoy. Why did it count backwards?
We're now recording. What? Hello, Captain. Come
fly with me. Let's fly, let's fly. What are we
going to talk about? I don't know. Leadership.
Life and everything else. Yeah. And we're live!
Finally! Finally. Finally. It's been a while.
What's been holding us back? Ah, perfectionism.
Oh my goodness. We teach this and yet we got
caught up in it. I know. We've been told for
over a year to get video happening for our podcasts.
Yeah. And so we thought, we'll do it. Yep. So
we downloaded... AI apps and recording recording
new equipment and tripods and and we had a few
goes at it but because it wasn't we've had many
goes at it but because it wasn't to the level
that we wanted we uh oh we'll do it again we'll
yes and so hence the big delay in episodes I
know so we've decided to come back to audio To
let you know what's happening. And then in the
background work on figuring out how to use some
of these apps. I've got a background in IT. I
started before Microsoft Windows was released.
I've been doing this technology stuff for a long
time, but yet some of the apps that I'm downloading
at the moment, you have to watch, obviously,
they put out these videos, but the videos make
it look too simple because when you go to the
app and you go, hold on a second, it didn't refer
to that particular setting or it doesn't even
tell you what that setting is. And unless you've
got a... background in videography or whatever
it is that is required yeah so we're finding
it quite difficult aren't we and look at us throwing
out all the all the excuses i know yeah we could
have just filmed it with our phones and use a
really poor sound and and throwing it out there
but Because we watch a lot of podcasts online
and listen to a lot of podcasts. We want it to
be perfect. Yeah, we want it to be like all of
those brilliant podcasts out there who have five
sound engineers, five videographers. We may need
to get some professionals in, but we thought
we could do it. Yeah, we did. We did. The topic
today is what holds you back? Yes, that perfectionism.
And then it gives you, it's almost like, what's
it called? There's a saying where you're almost,
what is it? Like you're not petrified, but you're
paralyzed. Paralyzed from choice and paralyzed
by fear. By fear. Well, that's what it is. All
procrastination, and we teach this, is all procrastination
is based on fear. Yeah. Yeah. So if something's...
too big the fear the underlying fear is that
it takes up too much of your energy too much
of your it's insurmountable it's insurmountable
so your biology says no no no choose the easier
thing over there because that one's going to
be you know much less energy to do it or if it's
too hard you fear failure yeah but in in the
case of perfectionism what is it that's the fear
Well, I've been looking at this. So we know about
the insurmountable that you break it down into
bite -sized pieces. You know, how do you eat
an elephant one bite at a time? Don't eat elephants.
No, that's right. We don't eat elephants or a
big eggplant or whatever it is. Lao Tzu said
the longest journey begins with a single step.
Yes, yes. And we haven't paid attention to that.
No. No, we're just seeing the end result that
we want in our mind and we want to get there
in one step. Now, what were you saying about
the... Yeah. Yeah, so this perfectionism is,
I think, I know for myself that I have a habit,
had a habit of looking at things in a binary
sort of situation. So if I hadn't succeeded how
in my mind what success looked like, then I'd
failed. Okay. Even though I'd succeeded in every
other metric. it still hadn't met my metric for
success, so therefore I'd failed. Which is the
problem that a lot of people have. We're all
encouraged to set very clear goals, have a very
clear vision of what you want to achieve. But
that can sometimes stop you from putting things
out or moving forward because if it's not exactly
as you had pictured in your mind, you go, no,
it wasn't good enough and you don't move forward.
So there's contrary advice out there. So, yes,
have an idea, but just fail forward fast. I know.
That's it. So when I was at kindercare, that's
what we did. You know, the app that we created,
we failed forward fast. Now, we were nimble.
We were very small. You could touch your toes.
Yes, I could. Sorry, Ben. Ben couldn't. And we
also had a very tight budget, so it made you
creative because you had to become innovative.
Through necessity. Yeah, absolutely. We didn't
have wads of cash to splash around and to get
others in to do it. And it does. It makes you
very, very creative, innovative, resourceful.
So do you think that the smaller the organization,
the more innovative they're going to be because
it's out of necessity where you don't really
have the opportunity to sit down and figure it
out and make it perfect before you actually release
it or whatever? Do you think that's... Look,
that's a bold statement, but I... heading that
way of thinking I'm thinking like big organizations
great and they have innovation in their manifesto
and they yes that's right they believe in innovation
but what I'm coming to see is that smaller companies
or smaller businesses or businesses that have
that mindset still of they're being small. They're
not this global conglomerate. They do take on
the fail forward fast and they're like James
Dyson, for example. We've spoken about him before.
Over 5 ,100 failed prototypes of the vacuum cleaner,
but he has gone back. to some of those failures
and reworked for you know and failed but come
up with other products so it was never in vain
yeah and the mindset there of that business is
that it's not failure as such okay you didn't
get the product in that go but you've learned
something yeah and We've learnt with our podcasting
that maybe that app or that ad, they were very
creative for the AI product that we purchased
because it made us believe that it was an easy
thing when really it wasn't. Just press record
and click. It does it all for you. No, it doesn't.
There's a lot of work in the background that
you don't get told. So we need to heed our own
advice. But we're human. Often. We're human.
Well, I often say this in training that, you
know, for example, I come home and I might be
stressed and then I think to myself, oh, you
idiot, you teach this stuff. And so, yeah, we've
got to heed our own advice as to what's holding
us back. Now, I'm more guilty than you. And I'll
tell you why. Why? Because in August this year,
your book is going to be released. Yes. The publisher
has given you the final copy, I believe. No,
where are you at? No. You tell me. So I've got
a copy, that limited edition. It's only available
for people who attend any... any talks or workshops.
So you've got a few keynotes coming up. So, okay,
they can access it there. They can. But then
the final version will be released in August.
How exciting is that? It is. Yeah. So that's
been two years in the making. Yes. It's extraordinary.
And your book, Guy. Okay, well, that's where
I was going to, Michelle. So your book was completed
in two years. I've been writing books for...
30 years. And none published because I hear my
own excuses as I tell them. So I'll tell you
my excuses. So when I was young, I started writing
books because I wanted to be an author. I wanted
to write books. I wanted to share knowledge.
You've got a degree in journalism. Yes, I do
have a degree in journalism. So I think I'm fairly
good with words, putting them on paper. My purpose,
the reason why I wanted to write books is to
share wisdom. So I, when I was younger, described
myself as the conduit of others' wisdom. So this
is not my wisdom. I read books. I listen to podcasts.
I go to seminars. I devour information. I put
it into my brain so that I can understand it,
and then I share it with other people. That's
what I've been doing my whole life, and that's
what I love doing. Well, you link. many ideas
that people have about potentially one concept
and make it... One, easy for you to understand.
Yeah, but two, so ideas that were previous and
up -and -coming ideas and meld those together.
Yeah, so my brain is a melting pot of wisdom
that has been sourced from other places and I
see my job as to distill it into digestible,
learnable chunks that people can go off and implement.
You've written... 26 of own workshops and that's
your ip yes it is so okay so i'm an author if
you're talking about the workshops that i've
authored but a book that sits in a bookstore
there isn't any at the moment that has guy newman
on the spine but there's okay these are my reasons
all right so when i was young i didn't think
i knew enough All right. Yes. And so these books
are binary thinking. It's binary thinking. I
didn't think I knew enough. So I wanted more
experience, more knowledge, more time in front
of the classroom, learning from them, passing
on the wisdom, reading more books. Yeah. Filling
my head full of knowledge. And then so I've been
writing many books over the years. So I've got
a leadership book that's slowly working away
in the background. As you know, the one that
I'm most passionate about at the moment is True
Confidence or Fidence, taking the con out of
confidence. I've got books on resilience. So
I've got all these books that I'm slowly writing
in the background based on the workshops that
we teach. But I've always thought that I don't
have enough of the knowledge yet. Or maybe, I
thought this the other day, maybe there's a subconscious
mindset that says, hold on, you haven't learned
everything yet. That there is a destination of
knowledge. And listening to my own advice, I
have to admit, there is no destination of knowledge.
You need to fail forward fast. Or in other words,
I should take the information I have at the moment
and put a book out. And I know my fear. And I've
meditated on this for many years that if I put
it out, I can't change it. Well, yes, you can.
Well, okay. All right. Second edition. Third
edition. Exactly. You can. That seems like a
lot of work. It's not. I'm very lucky. I have
a great publisher. Yes. And they have said to
me. They have been amazing, haven't they? They
have. And they have said to me, so this version
that is coming out, it's actually next week.
So it will be available at my talks as of next
week. It's been great because you can kind of
get used to it, get a feel for it, read through
it, see what does and doesn't work, get some
feedback from actual readers and then, you know,
add to it, change it, you know, other things.
Yesterday we were at lunch with an aviation great,
Richard de Krepny, and he was telling us about
his books and his writing journey and how...
He's got a number of editions and his first book
that he wrote, he wrote in response to QF32.
Yeah, the famous flight. That's right. Where
he was the captain. Yeah, and then he realised
after that there was more that needed to be told.
So he... produced another book on resilience
yes yeah and he's by the sounds of it he's still
going that's right yeah so yeah you're right
i guess i can have multiple revisions and multiple
books but yeah there's just this idea we can
come up with many ideas to get to counter your
true true true and you might need to slap me
over the head with a few of them because with
training I can do a course. I did a critical
thinking course two days ago. You gave a critical
thinking course. Thursday. Two days ago. And
during that course, I've run it now hundreds,
possibly thousands of times. It's different to
the first time I ran it. And I love that about
training because every single time I teach it,
I learn something either from the students or
from the look on their face when I try and explain
it in one way. And then I go, oh, that didn't
hit. So I'll explain it a different way. Or I'll
try the exercise like this. That works. Oh, I'll
try the exercise like this. That doesn't work.
And so every single day I get to change my workshops.
And I love that. I get up out of bed to go and
teach the thing that I've maybe taught. 10 000
times depending on which course it is some more
than others but i know that i can change it i
can adjust it i can improve it constantly whereas
a book is a fixed thing that sits on the shelf
and i can't reach into people's lounge rooms
or libraries or wherever they store their books
okay and change the words i'm going to counter
this because people read differently so the emphasis
the emphasis for a particular reader will be
different for everybody. Based on where they
are at that point in their life. Correct, correct.
Have you read a book a second time? Yes. Yeah,
I've read books 10 times and each time it's like
I'm reading it for the first time. Yes, because
you're in a different stage. Because I'm in a
different stage of my life. I'm a shell, you
may have unlocked something in me. There you
go. Where's the typewriter? Do we still use typewriters?
I thought we've got one under the stairs. Did
you ever use one? Yeah, there's one under the
stairs. Yeah, but you're that two -finger typer.
That must have been really... Three. I use my
thumb for the space bar. For the space bar, yeah.
Touch typing, Michelle, I told you. Or you can
just say it. You can transcribe now. Anyway,
let's go back to what holds people back. So,
okay. So what's holding me back in that situation
is the silly underlying thought that once the
book is published that it can't be changed. And
so that's silly because, like we just discussed,
that you can do multiple revisions. Every time
people read it, they're going to read it differently
based on where they are in life. And so this
is a quick little shout -out to everyone who
has read a great book in the past. Go back and
read it again and watch what happens. You'll
have a completely different experience. And no
doubt they'll have that experience when your
book comes out. Hopefully. Oh, they will. Every
time I've read it, and I've read it many, many,
many times now. It's been edited many times.
Yes. Well, we weren't trying to make it perfect,
though, were we? Well, that was a trap because
there was that over -editing initially by us
before we actually outsourced and got it edited
by professionals. Yeah, so Talia and Sarah. Sarah,
yes. Wow, we were so lucky to have two fabulous
editors. Editors. Yeah, it goes through the book.
Well, Talia's at the beginning of her editing.
career yeah and then sarah newton john i'm just
name dropping there olivia's sister olivia's
sister she is a industry expert yeah and she
edited it and wow it's you know you see it in
a completely different light once it has been
done professionally and we had to hold ourselves
getting it edited and proofread dozens of times
didn't we yeah but again your desire for it to
be perfect or at least be the best it possibly
can be, where does that come from? Probably psychologically
my childhood or something like that. Well, but
I'm sure that there's an element in you, which
is in me, that when you're giving something out
to the world which reflects you, you want it
to be the best version of you possible. Yeah.
Yeah. Because ultimately, and I will openly admit
this, everything that brings fear into the average
adult's brain, including me, is the fear of judgment.
It is the biggest fear because we don't like
being judged. We like feeling as though we're
not admired but respected or valued or that we
belong. Yeah, and so anything that I put out
there, there is always going to be an underlying
fear of judgment. Oh, someone might not like
it. I know, but I have that. And you remind me,
seriously, Michelle, they're not really thinking
about you. Because we are all the center of our
own universe. People think about us a lot less
than what we fear. But perfectionists out there,
how do they fix it? How do we fix perfectionism?
So I'm working through this at the moment and
I think it's got to be almost that you need to
break it down into three or four parts, like
a metric where what you, and you mentioned it
before, you know, we have these goals, these
ideals and ideas of what success looks like.
Yeah. So I think there needs to be some sort
of metric where what failure is. So failure is
you didn't attempt, you didn't do whatever, you
died, depending on what it is. And then it needs
to be, you know, something like average, good
and exceptional. So you've got, so the next thing
from failure, whatever you've determined failure
is, is actually a pass or success. But then there
are variations of what success could be. So you
may not be happy with how it happened or the
end result, but it's still success. Okay. So
it's that fail -forward -fast sort of mindset.
Yeah. Okay. So what I suggest with perfectionism
is that, and you and I are both experiencing
this now, When you're in the middle of it, you
can't let go. No. So what the secret is, is that
before you start, you determine when you're going
to stop. That's right. So how long are you going
to give yourself? And what does it look like
when you're going to finish? And if what it looks
like when you're finished is perfection, then
maybe you need to sit there and be more realistic,
as you were just saying. So give yourself some
different metrics. What is good enough or what
is going to move me forward or what is going
to be my first attempt? Yeah, because it's...
Well, I had colleagues who, you know, the pass
mark was 70 % in an exam, a theory exam, 70 out
of 70%. And if they got 70%, they were like,
that's a job well done. I didn't put too much
effort into it. I was, you know, economical with
my effort. I've done as required and I can now
concentrate on something else. Whereas I was
unhappy if I didn't get 100%. Yeah. Well, so
there's a really important aspect to that. the
effort required to get 100 % in everything, what
are you sacrificing? Yeah. So you think about
the... who doesn't spend time with their family,
their loved ones, their hobbies, their friends,
their fitness, because they're aiming for perfection
in one area of their life whilst all the other
areas of their life are being sacrificed. And
that's something you often see in perfectionists
where they get so narrow focused, so one track.
that they ignore all of the other tracks, the
other areas of their life, so they suffer. So
then they have to pull themselves out of this
completed perfect thing, whatever it may be,
jump into one of the other tracks and try and
fix the lack of attention to it. By giving everything
to that. By giving everything to that whilst
something else suffers rather than the mindset
of spreading your attention and your energy across
all of the areas in your life that are important.
And being good enough, not perfect in each one.
Yeah, we should all be aiming for good enough
and maybe perfecting things when we're a heart
surgeon or a neurosurgeon. So if you're a neurosurgeon,
please, when you're in there, be perfect. Be
perfect. And a shout out to my sister who is
just about to have brain surgery for the fourth
or fifth time. So fingers crossed that it's successful
this time. Or when I say successful, each one's
been successful, but it doesn't keep recurring
as it does. Because that would be harrowing.
Harrowing for what she's going through today.
All thoughts out to a successful outcome there.
So unless you're a brain surgeon or a heart doctor
or somebody who has my life in their hands, a
pilot, please, please get to... perfect or what
is expected as well pilots you know there's a
there's a off the cuff saying that yeah and an
aircraft's always going to land it's whether
you can use it again or not is the the thing
so the the outcome is that you can like the outcome
that you want yeah is that you can use the aircraft
again okay so any landing that that you can walk
away from is a good one and any that you can
use the aircraft again is a great one yeah We
had a similar thing in the circus. And you were
just talking about that, aiming for perfection.
So you would think in a circus that you want
to get things perfect when you're doing a performance.
So I was a juggler, as you know. And we had this
routine that we did in the juggling. It was a
club routine. So we're juggling three clubs each.
Yeah, four of us. And so we had this routine
where one person is standing there and the three
of us are throwing clubs to them while we're
juggling our own. And then we'd move and then
the next person would be throwing the clubs and
then move again and then the next person. And
then we'd stand in a square and we'd be juggling
to the person opposite us and then to the side
of us and then over the top of. And it was this
huge routine. And we failed nearly every show.
we somebody would drop and we just we just pick
up from where we were so we pick up the clubs
and start again and finish the routine and put
our hands up and the audience would clap and
go oh look at those kids throwing things in the
air But there was one day, I remember this, and
it will live with me forever. We're doing the
act. And we're used to dropping things. We're
used to picking up from where we went. We were
always aiming for perfection, and that is to
not drop a club. And this one particular show,
you know, we're looking at each other going,
we're doing it. We're doing it. Nobody's dropped
anything. And then I'm thinking to myself, stop
thinking like that. And then focus, focus, focus,
catch, catch, throw, catch, throw, catch, throw.
And then as we're getting closer to the end of...
You could feel the tension. The band, who were
amazing. We always had the best bands in the
circus. I could feel their energy going up because
they're going, they're going to make it. And
then everyone else who's watching, they're going
to make it. They're going to make it. And the
audience doesn't really know that we've never
made it yet. And then we get to the last row
and I remember the club coming towards me. I
catch it. And then I'm looking at all three of
the others going, did they catch it? And they
all caught it. And we jumped up in the air and
we threw our hands in the air. Like the feeling
was elation. So we actually reached perfection.
Yeah. But that was, it was the destination, but
we were always happy with putting on a good show
and having a round of applause at the end. But
yeah, anyway, so perfection, unfortunately, is
a bit of an attraction. Especially in juggling.
You never want to drop anything. It's like a
volley when you're doing table tennis or tennis.
If you're volleying, it's a long rally. Because
volley, you're hitting it on the floor. So rallying.
And it feels good, doesn't it? 20, 30 hits and
you're like, whoa, I'm a professional. I'll say,
okay, you're not competing. Because if you're
competing, you don't like a long rally. You want
to just win that ace. So perfectionism has been
holding us back, unfortunately, which meant that
we still don't have a video podcast where we
can cut it up and throw it up onto all the socials
and become famous to get more viewers so we can
share. Because we have a mission. Well, I have
a mission, and I think you've shared yours, is
that I think the world will be a better place
when we all become our best selves. Yes. And
so I want to share the wisdom that is on the
planet with as many people as possible. It's
not my wisdom. I'm just the conduit, and I'd
like to share it far and wide. So we've got to
forget about being perfect. We've got to get
it out there. So even if people are listening
to us like audio just now, but in the future
we will have a video once we've figured out that
app. Yep. Well, let's make sure that this doesn't
hold us back again. Yeah, that's right. So apologies
to everyone out there. If you've been waiting
for the latest Captain the Clown podcast. It's
here now. Yes, we have one. And we will continue
to move forward with audio. We'll keep doing
audio and we'll practice. Work in the background.
Get the video done. If we had a producer and
a studio, we could do it. Someone who knew what
they were doing. Exactly. But our life is quite
full. Yes, which means we should probably hand
it over to someone. No, we're holding on. Because
we're learning at the same time as well. Yeah.
More dogs. More dogs. More dogs. We had another
chat the other day with somebody about how when
you're walking a dog, people talk to you. Yes.
Yes, and we talk to people when they've got dogs.
Exactly. And how good is it that we walk around
our suburb and the dogs are looking at you and
we're looking at them and they're going, oh,
pat me, pat me. And then the owner's going, yes,
he wants a pat or she wants a pat. Once I pat
him, we go down and give him a pat. And then
the owner walks away going, thank you. Thank
you for patting my dog. That's funny. All right.
And so our sponsors still haven't reached out
to us? No. Well, we've been kind of mute. We
have, yeah. So why would Bollinger reach out?
Why would Bose or who was the other sponsor we
were asking for? Lint. Lint, yes. They still
haven't reached. We've still got the car wash
kid. But anyway. Good to finally be back on the
microphone, Michelle. Yes. Cheers. Bye. Well,
that was fun. That was fun. You're such a clown.
The clown. Lady Captain. And who's going to listen
to this? Maybe our mums. Thanks, Mum.