G'day listeners, in this podcast episode we discuss learned helplessness and why you should never do something for somebody that they can do themselves. Enjoy.
Why did it count backwards? Oh no, we're now recording.
What? Hello Captain.
What do I...
Come fly with me, let's fly, let's fly.
What are we going to talk about? I don't know. So, leadership, life and everything else.
And we're live. No, we're recording.
I nearly didn't get the one out. I've still got this bad throat. I lost my voice the other day and it's not coming back. How are you Michelle?
Well thank you Guy and you? I'm struggling with getting my words out because of this. I've never experienced this where my voice completely disappeared and it's slowly coming back. But warm drinks help it.
Yes, yes. So today we're looking at learned helplessness.
Yeah, this is something we've been discussing a fair bit lately, that you should never do something for somebody who can do it for themselves. I think that's the right term. You should never do for somebody something that they can do for themselves.
Which I think is hard because most people want to help and especially your loved ones, kids, elderly parents or, and Mum don't worry I'm not referring to you as an elderly parent, just the people that you care about, you want to help.
So there was a lot of research done into learned helplessness many years ago by Martin Seligman and so they did experiments unfortunately on animals where they put them into situations where they felt hopeless.
And so they learned to be helpless and then even in situations where they had an escape, they didn't choose the escape because they'd learned to be helpless.
And so that's where it all started but I don't want to go back to those experiments. I'd rather focus on a couple of things. Firstly, learned helplessness in parenting and learned helplessness in leadership.
So the version of learned helplessness in leadership is micromanaging.
So when you're always doing things for other people, so when you're micromanaging and quite often micromanaging is based on fear, you fear that they're going to make mistakes and it's going to reflect on you. But micromanaging, doing things for other people, telling them how to do things, takes away their agency.
Well it also takes away the opportunity to grow. So if I can think of an example, I've had a boss not in aviation when I got out of aviation who tended to either ghost or then micromanage.
And I did think it was me and I'm sure in some aspects, yes, I required some supervision on some tasks. However, after three, four, five times it becomes a bit of a don't you trust me sort of feeling.
And then you do think, well, why even bother because he's going to come and watch over me anyway like I can't do it.
And I presume it affected your motivation. Absolutely. So I was thinking and you know, I consider myself an intelligent human being and very intelligent from my perspective, Michelle, but even new tasks, you know, it's that thing of, you know, you watch, then you have a go and then you continue to improve, which is the way most people do it.
And you, you feel you get that little hit of dopamine when you do accomplish it and then you improve it and it becomes then a like almost like second nature easy task because there's no thought required because you, you have accomplished the skill.
However, when you're micromanaged yet, like you said, that thing of just giving up, like why, why even bother my motivation was why bother, which is it kind of did my head in a little bit because that's not how I am.
And then you start to, you know, look at other aspects and think, well, I'm being micromanaged here and here. Seriously, why, why am I here? It affects your confidence. It does affect your confidence. Yeah.
So one of the, one of the three motivators of intrinsic motivators in a workplace is so there's autonomy mastery and purpose. I learned this from Dan Pink on that very famous Ted talk. If you haven't watched it, give it a, give it a watch. It's a fantastic Ted talk. Dan Pink talks about intrinsic motivators and one of them is mastery.
And what that means is that you can improve on something again, apologies for my voice, but it means that you can actually get better at something. And so when, when you're being micromanaged and your agency is being taken away from you and you can't see that as those improvements, it can dramatically affect your motivation.
Yeah. And then you start to question other things. So if there's another skill that you can like, if you go to another job, for example, and there's a skill or task that's very similar to the one that you did, it's almost like, do I know how to do it? You start questioning your own ability when in reality you do know.
It's just that you've had that agency taken away from you.
Yeah.
So in leadership, micromanaging is a form of taking away agency, but I want to talk about parenting because this is really where we discuss this the most that you and I both grew up in an era where the sun came up, we were told to get outside and the sun goes down, you're told to get inside.
With clarification, whether, you know, when it's dark, does that mean when you actually can't see or when the streetlights came on?
Exactly. And that era in created in Gen X, we're both Gen X's, I guess, agency where we felt as though we were trusted to figure things out for ourselves.
And so when I was a kid, we would go out the backyard, we'd grab our cricket bat and our ball, the local neighborhood kids would come in, and we'd almost have a meeting before we started, okay, six out of fences, six and out, the young kid gets to bat first because it's his bat and if he doesn't stick around, we don't have enough fielders and we'd make up all of the rules.
So we would determine how the rules were going to be played, and we refereed and umpired ourselves. And so we learned very valuable skills that then translate into later life.
Yes. And I'm worried that the young generation, and this is the generation that I have raised, so I'm guilty of this, and I think the responsibility has to lie with us parents that we didn't give them that opportunity to figure things out for themselves.
No, it's like we micromanage them.
Yeah, and I think it's, I always say that the pendulum swings, the pendulum swings, so back when we were kids, it was complete control, not complete autonomy, go outside, figure it out.
Now it's the opposite. It's almost like we kind of rebounded from that thinking, hold on, we would have liked a little bit more supervision, we would have liked, you know, a little bit more assistance from our parents, and they didn't do anything wrong because that's, that was the era, that was what happened.
But I think we rebounded a little bit too far, and I'm very guilty of this, doing things for my kids that they could do for themselves.
Yeah, like washing up or chores or, okay, I am guilty, I raise my hand and yes, I am very guilty of this. Potentially school assignments, where like in year seven.
Especially the artistic ones.
Famously, so I would have got it, like I would love to be back at school right now doing art.
So much fun. I wish I had appreciated how much fun school was, especially art, when I was there, because now I would love to be doing that.
I find this hilarious.
So last year, my kids were in year seven, and they got an assignment, very first, I think the second week of school, and it was on ancient history, and one of my children chose to create the pyramid of Giza, Geyser.
Giza, yep. Geyser is something different.
The eight-sided pyramid of Giza. That's right, it's eight-sided, and the other child, my other child chose to do a sarcophagus with a mummy.
And so I was very excited by this. So I made them, create them, you know, realistically to scale. And then when I got frustrated that it wasn't to scale and wasn't quite to what I would like.
You didn't take over, did you?
I might have when they were at school. I might have made a few.
I recall seeing you sitting there painting them, so they looked realistic.
And calming. So when they were at school, they came home to partially completed assignments, and then when they went to bed, I completed them.
So they got great marks. They both got A+.
You passed year seven, didn't you?
I passed, I passed, I did. And then, so I had kind of dumbed it down thinking, oh, I've still got to make it look like it's a year seven that has done this.
It looked like something from a museum, Michelle.
But then, well, weeks later at the school, I think there was a parent-teacher interview, I turned up and the teacher said to me, yeah, we know that the parents do this one.
Had I known that I was in competition with other parents, I would have upped my game somewhat.
I don't know how you could have improved on those. They were absolutely brilliant. I'd be happy with them in a national museum.
Well, then we threw them out. The kids were cleaning out their rooms and they threw them out, kind of to my disgust, the effort that I'd put into it.
But they put them on top of the bins because it didn't fit. The next door neighbor, whose daughter is in-
A bit younger.
Yeah. She grabbed them and said, I'm sure we will need these in the coming years. So, they recycle, which is good.
You know the Easter hat parade that they have in primary schools?
Yes.
That's not a bunch of kids walking around with hats that they built. It's a bunch of kids walking around that their parents built.
I know. Well, I did-
You did, my son sent. Oh, my goodness. It was one of the best things.
Anyways, but this is what we're guilty of out my generation, our generation. I'm a little bit older than you, Michelle, but we do things for our kids thinking that we're helping them.
But it's actually the opposite. We're not helping them. And one thing I've heard in nursing homes, they say never ever do something for one of the residents that they could do for themselves.
Yes.
And the second thing that you start doing things for people, they die quicker because of this, I can't do it for myself, learned helplessness.
And it's an interesting concept that our generation does so much for our kids, but there's many, many studies that show that kids who do chores when they're young, kids who learn to be part of the family and do chores, are much, much happier and much more successful in life as they get older.
My youngest son, he's at the moment this year, he's testing out what his minimum effort is that he can still pass.
It's a natural thing, isn't it?
That's right. And he, his sister puts in a lot of effort, but he was on reduced effort for this one particular assignment.
And the night before he was panicking because he hadn't done the work for the assignment that was due the next morning. And, you know, we had a bedtime and so he asked if he could stay up.
And I really wanted to help him out. But I thought this is an opportunity for him to fail.
And fail in a good way so that he learns because no matter how many times I say you should have or you need to, he's not going to do it unless there are consequences.
So I let him fail, which was very hard. It's hard, isn't it? It is. But the assignment since he has done ahead of time.
And regrettably as kids, we need to learn to fail. Failure is where we grow. Failure is where we get stronger and we learn what not to do.
But when we take that away from children and we take away their agency and their learning, we are creating learned helplessness.
And then learned helplessness is very, very closely linked to anxiety, depression, lack of motivation.
Because subconsciously, I guess you're starting to identify as somebody who can't do it.
A shame because people have such amazing skills and ability to learn skills.
And even if it's not at mastery level, being able to do a skill one, that hit of dopamine once you learn something is great.
And it's better than the scrolling dopamine. But it also people, different people's perspective or people's different perspectives add to innovation,
add to making the workplace diverse and not just in diversity as in from different cultures, but different ways of thinking as well.
Different ways of approaching things.
Yeah, and doing myself. I would have loved the opportunity to prove myself and to be let go, given free rein within constraints, so to speak.
But because then you think, hang on, I can do this. And then you might take on other things or research more.
You always an appreciated employee always gives more than their pay scale.
Yeah. I'm often thinking about why we like this, my generation as parents. And I think we're rebounding from.
So every generation becomes more and more, I guess, conscious of knowledgeable because the amount of knowledge on the planet is increasing.
Yes.
Yeah. So if you spoke to somebody back in the 30s about mental health, they'd go, what? What do you mean? I'm sick. I've got an illness or something.
They wouldn't have a clue what it is. So every generation learns from the previous generation and arrogantly, we think to ourselves, oh, we'll do it better than our parents.
Yeah. But our parents did their best in the environment that they grew up in.
So you should never look back and go, oh, I wish my parents had done. No, your parents did their best based on what they learned from their parents, who learned from their parents.
So it's very arrogant to look back and judge our parents. We should accept our parents and that generation for who they are.
So every generation, every new generation thinks, all right, I'm going to do things better than the previous generation, which is, which I guess is a great thing to think I'll do it better.
But what were we responding to? What was the pain that we were responding to where we helicoptered over all of our kids?
I guess it was the pain that we experienced, the failures that we experienced as kids. And we kind of wanted to protect our kids from those things.
But looking back, it was those things that made us stronger. It was those things that taught us that we can dust ourselves off when we get hurt.
We can pick ourselves back up and learn from the experience, which is antifragility, which is something that you spend a lot of time speaking in your keynotes about how the adversity that you've gone through in your life has made you stronger and you've learned from it.
And if we take that opportunity away from kids, then they're not going to be resilient. They're not going to be able to pick themselves up and learn from their mistakes.
Well, they're equivalent to the tree growing in the biodome. They don't have that wind to make the roots hold on stronger. They'll tip over as soon as they're released into the world.
That's it. We've got a bunch of kids walking around without roots. I love that the trees in a biodome grow to their full height and then fall over because they don't lay down strong roots because they haven't experienced wind adversity.
And our kids are experiencing less and less.
So guess what kids?
Tonight, you're on your own.
Yeah, but getting them to cook meals early, getting them to help with the washing, getting them to chores and basically being part of the family and doing stuff is so important for agency and I think even doing art projects at school and maths homework.
My daughter now gets annoyed, which is good. And I do get back in my box.
She's like, Mom, this is mine. I want to do it. I like doing it.
And it's like, okay, I'm sorry. I'll get back in my box and let you go.
But we're both very guilty of this.
Yes.
But why? We're smart people. What have we reacted to? Are we trying to protect our kids from the pain that we experienced?
I don't know. I don't think I had pain. That's the thing. I'm sure I did as a child, but it's just standard, you know?
Standard childhood.
Yeah.
So, okay, here's the question. Why don't we open the door when the sun comes up and say, hey, guys, get outside and we'll see you when the sun comes down. Why don't we do that?
Yeah.
It's hard to think about it, isn't it?
It is.
Yeah. When you think there's so much danger out there, though. But is there any more danger out there than when we were kids?
No.
I don't think so. How many kids do you see down the park with other kids mucking around?
Yeah.
One of my pet hates was during COVID in our neighborhood, some local kids got a shovel, went down to a park and built some jumps.
Oh, cool.
Yep. For their bikes.
Yes.
How cool is this, right? So they're riding around, jumping on their BMX bikes or whatever. The council, after locals complained, came along and basically got rid of the jumps.
So the next day, the kids are out there again, digging the holes, making the jumps. And again, the locals complained. I'm sick of these adults who don't understand that that's a really, really important part of childhood.
I don't know if you ever did this as a kid, but my brother and I, we got our bikes. I regret it. We had a 10 speed. He had a dragster. And we'd go around to an empty lot in our suburb.
And all the local kids were there. And we all made this BMX track and it had big jumps and big dips and bends. And we built it up on the side so we could ride quickly around.
And I'm on my 10 speed pretending it's a BMX bike. And my brother's got his dragster. And I remember those memories, their fond memories of a bunch of kids being in an empty lot doing stuff.
But our kids don't experience that. What they do is we give them an Xbox or a PS5. They get a game. All of the rules have been created for them. And they just follow the rules, mindlessly following the rules.
And I'm afraid that we're not setting them up for success. We've taken away all of their creativity and agency.
I recall you telling me a story about you hired a young girl as an assistant with your business a few years ago. And you basically let her innovate because she admitted that she was lazy and you took the opportunity.
Well, maybe she will streamline.
And she did. Yeah. When you give people the opportunity to improve things, they will. They will. So why aren't we giving people the opportunity? It's an interesting question and one I'm challenged with because I love my kids.
And my youngest is 11 and I want him to be safe. But safety doesn't necessarily mean avoiding failure and pain and challenges. Like even when I've said to him in the past, hey, mate, can you clean up your room?
I end up helping him. And that's learned helplessness. Yes. That's me saying to him, hey, buddy, you can't do it on your own. So I have to help you. I've got to stop this, Michelle. How do I do it? Please help me.
Same with putting away his clothes. No, I get him to do that. I get him to do that. No, he certainly does that. But I have to keep pushing him and pushing him. And he's got a shoe rack. And the shoes don't go on the shoe rack.
I have to learn. I have to learn to start giving more consequences, I guess, and more agency and less micromanaging. And like I've always envied in the past, looking at parents who let their kids kind of be messy, you know, like finger painting.
And then I know if you've ever experienced this, you set them up to do finger painting or whatever. And then you go, don't touch the walls and don't do this. And you're very much controlling it instead of going, hey, go for your life.
I read recently somebody said, I wish they're a parent, but their kids are all grown up. And they're looking back and they said, I wish I was less controlling. I wish I allowed more fun. I wish, you know, they looked back on the way they parented their kids now that their kids are adults.
And they think, I wish I just...
Being free range.
Free range. Yeah, those free range kids. Because that's a great skill. And I've seen the opposite. I'm sure you have as well. I've seen the opposite where the kids weren't allowed or encouraged to do anything because their parents want to do everything for them.
And I've seen it to the extreme where those kids haven't learned agency, haven't learned social skills, haven't learned all the things that being outside and being in the world provides.
Yeah.
That's...
Well, they're growing up to be the next leaders in the business world.
So anyway, learned helplessness. Don't do something for somebody that they can do for themselves.
Yes.
I will be working on that.
Me too. It's not easy.
All right. So, Lindt.
Yes, Lindt, Bose, Bollinger.
Bollinger.
We've still got the car wash kid.
We do. We do.
And we've got Bellmane's own car wash kid sponsoring this podcast.
I hope our next podcast, My Voice, will be back.
Absolutely.
Thanks, guys.
See you, Michelle. Bye.
Well, that was fun.
That was fun.
You're such a clown.
The clown.
Lady captain.
And who's going to listen to this? Maybe our mums.
Thanks, mum.