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G'day leaders. In this podcast, we talk about the skill or the technique of responsibility tennis,

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hitting the responsibility back into their court when somebody's being pessimistic, whinging,

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maybe insulting a whole range of different areas. But responsibility tennis takes it out of your

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side of the court and puts it back into theirs. Enjoy. Why did it count backwards? And they

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were now recording. What? Hello captain. What do I say? Come fly with me, let's fly, let's fly away.

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What are we going to talk about? I don't know. So leadership, life and everything else. Yeah.

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And we're live in Melbourne. Yes, we're live recording in Melbourne.

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I wasn't at a wanky voice that I put on. I think I've used that one before. Hey Michelle. Hi guy.

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In Melbourne. Yes, but eventually, finally. Eventually we tried to get down here earlier

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this morning for work tomorrow, but the rain held us. Yeah, and Pog, it's actually the clouds

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really low, it's on the buildings. You would have experienced this a fair bit when you were travelling.

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Yeah, I didn't mind disrupt days. It wasn't great for passengers, but it was a bit of an adventure

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where you'd end up and whether you'd actually fly or not. So yeah, it was always exciting. Yeah,

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the pilot and the cabin, the captain and the cabin crew were very apologetic this morning. Yes,

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that's right. They can't do anything. No, the airports have to cancel some flights and stall

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others so that we can all come in safely. Yeah. Yes. So we're down here doing some influence

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training for one of our clients. Yeah, it's exciting. Yeah, looking forward to it. But today,

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I wanted to chat to you about something that we both use a lot and it's the concept of

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responsibility tennis. Yeah, I didn't realise I'd been using it until when I met you and you gave

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it a name. So responsibility tennis and of course it makes sense. Yeah, so the concept is, let's say

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somebody's whinging at you or complaining about something, they're very pessimistic. Responsibility

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tennis is simply hitting the responsibility to come up with a solution back in their court. So

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what it looks like is, okay, so what can we do about that? That's right. Yeah, so it can be gentle,

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it can be kind. Okay, so how do we fix that? What do we need to do? What have you tried?

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Rather than trying to fix and provide the answer and fill the space all the time,

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it's you put it back on the person. That's it. That's it. So you put the responsibility back in

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their court. Okay, so what can we do about it? What have you tried? What have you done about it?

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Who could you speak to? Who haven't you spoken to? Who's done it before? Who's the expert in this

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area? I've got lots of them. I'm curious as to why you have that opinion. Tell me more, I'm curious.

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I want to learn. So rather than saying you're an idiot, no, I disagree. But also saying that

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gives you the opportunity to listen then rather than to trying to fill in.

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And see it from their perspective. One of the things I like about this technique is that it

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allows you to kind of create a barrier around yourself. I'm sure you're a bit like me, Michelle,

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that when people are coming at you with their problems and that sort of thing, it's easy to

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take on board their energy, their compassionate person like yourself, you take on board what's

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going on in their lives. And what that tends to do is as somebody who's high in empathy,

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you tend to then carry around a lot of other people's stuff, a lot of stresses. And so if you

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can build a bit of a barrier around yourself, whereby if anyone whinges, you can kind of see it

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coming in and you just simply hit the responsibility back over the barrier into their side of the court.

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Okay, so how do we fix this? What do you need to do? What can you do? And it actually gives

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the person agency, which I think is a very useful thing for us to do for each other.

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Yeah, well, it becomes a habit, being a bit of a victim. And you see it, there may be some

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people in your friend circle, colleagues, family members who, you know that when they come to you,

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there's going to be a bit of a whinge happening or, you know, something bad is happening. And

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there are people who are very unfortunate. However, there are also people who have a little bit of,

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you know, a few bad things happen, but they tend to carry that around for a long time.

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Yeah.

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So rather than thinking, oh, here comes this person, when you do this, like you said,

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gives them agency and also helps them break the habit. Because once you've been in that,

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and I'm guilty of being a victim and carrying that around for a while, that being my story.

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And once you're out of it and you have that ability to see that you are out of it and you

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were in it, then you, I used to be horrified and think, oh my goodness, like what a horrible person

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I would have been to be around. But now I look back at myself with compassion and okay,

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give myself a virtual hug. I'm not there anymore. But it was actually was a colleague that, you know,

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said to me, oh, everything bad seems to happen to you. What are you going to do about it? And

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just asking one highlighting the fact that it was everything bad. And I'm like, no, it's not. But

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then that was, had been my story. And then asking me what I was going to do about it. It's like,

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oh yeah, I'm responsible. It's my responsibility. No one else's.

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It's funny. You do meet people like that who almost have, tell me if you've noticed this,

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that I've had people in my life that when you speak to them, it's almost like they drag

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your whinging out of you. Your victimhood out of you. Cause they want to hear it.

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That's it. And then they get used to it. And so then they see you again next time. You might

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be in a great mood, but then all of a sudden you're talking to them about something negative in your

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life. And I've noticed that in the past. And I try to catch myself whenever I go into that victim

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mindset where you're whinging about something, complaining about something rather than focusing

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on what you can do about it. But it's funny. There are some people who bring it out in you.

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And you've got to be conscious of those people as well, because you don't want somebody to only see

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you as a source of their intrigue in your negative stories. Well, it's almost like the junk, junk food

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of feelings, isn't it? You don't, it's like, yeah, I like that the junk food of feelings. You can

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become addicted. That's good to do. Yeah. It's like a sugar rush. No, no, but there are a lot of people

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who are addicted to that drama. And so, yeah. So when, when, when you have somebody coming at you

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with their own negative story, if you can hit it back into their court and say, okay, so what can

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you do about it? It kind of releases the tension from that situation, but more importantly, it gets

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them thinking with a different part of their brain. Okay. How do I fix this? What can I do about it?

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How do I move myself out of this situation? And we all need friends like that. In fact, I'm very

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lucky when, when I've, whenever I've been caught in that, I've got some great friends who I tend to

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lean on, um, in those sorts of situations that just simply do that. They, they grab, grab their

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tennis racket, they hit it back into my court and they go, all right, that sucks. What are, what are

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you going to do now? Yeah. And yeah. So if you intentionally find those people there, they're a

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gold mine, but also protects you from, from having it affect you. Like he said, you know, about the,

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it attaches to you. It gives you that space. So one, you don't resent the person and run when you see

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them coming, but also it's yeah, you, you walk away. You've actually helped the person, whether

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they see it at the time or not. And, um, yeah, you're then able to, because you haven't taken on

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their stuff, you're able to help someone else. We've got somebody that we know, uh, I'll name him

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actually, Greg. He's, he's brilliant at diverting a conversation away from the negative. I love this

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about him. He's really good about this. He's good with this. And I've noticed he's, he did it with

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me a couple of times when we were, we met up out on the street and, uh, and I can't remember what

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I was saying, but I do remember him diverting to the positive. And I thought, Oh, I like that about

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you. That's brilliant. Yeah. No, it's really good. Greg's a fellow, aero-sexual. Yes. Yes, he is.

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He is. Now the other, the other place you can use responsibility tennis or hitting the responsibility

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back into the other person is, uh, it's related to confidence and knowledge. So have you ever

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had somebody challenge your thinking or say you're wrong? Oh, yes. Yeah. So this responsibility

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tennis technique can be used in those sorts of situations. So if Michelle, you said to me, Hey,

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no, I disagree. You're wrong. I can now hit the responsibility back into your court to explain

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to me, Hey, okay. How do you see it? Now the responsibility is back in your court. You now

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have to show me how I'm wrong. And if you are a confident person, you're open to being wrong.

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And now I'm going to listen with curiosity, listen to your side of whatever it is we're discussing.

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And now whilst the responsibilities in your court, I'm going to be listening.

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Yeah. It's almost like not, not that you would get to a debate, but a person who you can debate

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well, can do that very well, like the responsibility tennis. So it's, they will agree or disagree and

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then shoot it back to you. And, but they're also open to having that done to them because

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they're confident in themselves, confident in being wrong and confident, confident, sorry, in,

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in open, being open to hearing and learning something new. Yeah. Yeah. So next time somebody

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challenges the way you think, just simply hit the responsibility back into their court. Okay.

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Help me understand that from your perspective. Yeah. Share with me the way you look at that

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and learn. That's what, that's what confidence is. It's, it's not just knowing what you know,

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it's also being open to, to being wrong. Yeah. I think I've mentioned this before. It's also a good

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way of not taking stuff on board. So sometimes there are people in your life who may be in a

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group situation. And especially I'm thinking, you know, when you're younger, when you're a teenager

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or, or, you know, very impressionable years that people, if they're insecure, they want to put,

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they want you to feel like that. So they will say something degrading or something to put you down,

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especially if you're in a group situation. And I've told the kids that if somebody does that to you,

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because it will happen, it does happen that rather than taking it on and feeling less than,

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or feeling like you're not worthy because you know that they're doing it to be nasty or to make you

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look silly so that they don't put it back on them. I don't know what you mean by that. Can you explain

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that? Most people, unless they're what, sociopaths would, would, would realize that what they've done,

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what they've said, but they, they would then not repeat it or repeat it in a way. Oh no,

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I didn't mean that. And then take it on back on them. Doesn't that's right. Can you explain

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more about the, can you help me understand what you just said? Can you repeat that? I'm not quite

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sure what your intent was there. That's right. Or I'm sure you didn't mean to sound nasty.

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What was it that you meant? Did you, did you mean to sound nasty then? Did you mean to sound

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insulting? It's, yeah, it's, it's getting the power back in a bullying situation, I guess.

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That's interesting because at school I didn't have that ability. I was a very shy, I've told

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everyone this shy sensitive little sook. And so I took any banter in the schoolyard as bullying. And

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I was bullied by a particular guy. He delighted in making me feel like shit. I could just tell it in

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his eyes. But I've learned as, as I've got older that men and in particular, especially in

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construction and those sorts of industries, hang shit on each other. I wouldn't be using

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this responsibility tennis in those sorts of situations. Now I like, you've mentioned this

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before to me, and I really like the reason why. Yeah. And why you encourage it. And it's a good

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thing. Yeah. So it's a way of men bonding and building rapport with each other. But it's,

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there's a fine line, right? So you can tell when somebody's doing it intentionally to hurt somebody.

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Do you think it's mainly an Australian thing? No, it's definitely overseas as well. So, okay,

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let's go deep on this. So men hang shit on each other. And we do it for a particular reason. I

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used to think that, you know, bullies were bullies when I was in school, but there's, there's almost

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a biological reason to it. So if, if you want to know who somebody is, especially as a, as a man in

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a, like in a workforce outdoor setting sort of situation, we hang shit on each other. Now, if you

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get upset, what do I know about you? That you can't handle it. That you can't handle stuff. You can't

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handle when the pressure's on. And so when we get into trouble, I don't want you on my team.

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This is a really weird way of men finding out who they can trust. So if I have a go at you and it

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impacts you and negatively, and you're kind of like sookie, like I was as a kid, then I know you,

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I don't want you on my team when the shit hits the fan. Now, the other thing is if I hang shit on

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you and then you get really nasty back, aggressive back again, I don't want you on my team because I

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can't trust you. But if I hang shit on you and then you laugh and you hang shit on me, and we kind of

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know the intent behind it and we're smart enough to understand the intent behind it, now you're on

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my team. You're somebody who'll have my back when the shit does hit the fan. And not a lot of people

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have taught this. In fact, I only discovered this kind of in the 30 years of teaching people,

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especially a lot of people out in field work, that men hang shit on each other to see if they can

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trust each other. Whereas I always saw it when I was at school as bullying. But there are bullies,

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there are people who intentionally try and hurt others through these techniques, because they're

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not either emotionally aware and not emotionally intelligent enough to know what they're actually

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doing. And they're the sort of people you want to play responsibility with tennis with. You want to

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say something like, that sounded really insulting. Was that your intent or you're just mucking around

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here, mate? But if you're like a bunch of mates I just went away with for a weekend, where it's just

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constantly hanging shit on each other, but everyone's laughing, everyone's having the best time,

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then that's not bullying. That's men bonding. It's really weird. And like, I'm a man so...

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Wasn't that bullying over bullying? Wasn't that hanging shit on each other about which team you

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supported in the NRL? It was, it was. And so that's very different to the bullying that you often see

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in schoolyards where kids are actually trying to hurt each other. Because they're trying to figure

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out who they are. So when it's with malicious intent or malice, then that's when you play

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responsibility tennis. And you say, okay, that sounded quite insulting. Was that your intent?

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It's good in the workplace too, because you can, there are politics, obviously,

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but you can put it back on the one, people have so much stuff going on in their lives.

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Always have, but it comes in ebbs and flows. And it's just, there often seems to be, if someone

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is going through some tough stuff personally, they bring it to work, but they don't want to bring their

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home stuff to work, but it does impact them. So either they're short, they maybe strike out,

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or they go inside or however they display it. But doing a responsibility tennis with them,

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one, it helps them get out there if they're saying snarky stuff. Because sometimes they're not aware

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of it. No, that's right. Because it's in their head about all the other stuff. And look, I get it,

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life goes, you know, life happens. And that's part of who that person is. But they've got stuff and

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often they're in pain and hurting, but not, so if there's not an opportunity. If you say to them,

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that came across as quite insulting. Was that your intent? It gives them pause for thought.

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Or even asking, are you okay? Are you okay? Yeah. This isn't you. This isn't how you normally are.

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What's going on? That's right. And that's a form of responsibilities. Are you okay? It is, isn't it?

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Yeah. Yeah. I just want to circle back around, if that's okay, back to what I was talking about

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before, men hanging shit on each other. It's very, very important that we understand when and where

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it's appropriate. And in a work environment, if what you're doing, the banter you're using,

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is upsetting the other person. Then it's not appropriate. Yeah. It's not appropriate. And

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it's your responsibility then to pick that person up and say, hey, mate, I wasn't serious.

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No, it's out of line. I was out of line. I'm really sorry. So expecting them to be able to banter back,

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that's where the line's been crossed. Yeah. So you can do it if the person is bouncing it back to you.

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If you're having a game of, what do you call it? We'll call it,

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work yard tennis, work yard banter tennis. If it's coming back and it's coming back genuine,

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and you can read it, then it's good. But if the person's kind of not, or just kind of laughing it

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off a little bit, but not giving it back, then you might want to check in. You might have met

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somebody who is struggling and who is taking that as bullying. And that's really important as well,

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understanding when that banter has become bullying. And it's a really important thing

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to do. It's a really fine line for some people. You don't know that somebody is actually,

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you might think that they're attacking us banter, but they're actually deep down really hurting.

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You never know what's going on in somebody's life. I've seen it used positively in the workplace

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where managers and leaders are getting the knowledge from their team. So rather than,

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if there's a team member comes and is always asking what next, what next, and you're giving

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the answer, then they're not learning. They're just coming and asking. Whereas if you're trying to

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mentor them up, really, really get them up to you or above and really encourage them in their career,

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the best way I've seen is like responsibility tennis where they'll, what would you do?

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Yes. You tell me what are the considerations? All those questions can be, whenever you get asked,

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what should I do next? Ask them because they potentially also, one, it gives them an opportunity

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to step up. Two, it gives you the ability to see the edge of their knowledge where you can help.

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But it also gives you the opportunity. I remember a captain saying to me once when we were flying,

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and he would always say, what next? What do you think? Why do you think that? I questioned him on

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it one day and said, you always ask and you try and get more and more out of it. He said jokingly,

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I think it was jokingly, that he said, oh, no, well, you guys know more than me. You study more.

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You study more. So I'm asking you. It makes me sound wise by asking and what would you do?

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I think he was wiser than what he's letting on.

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That's right. But it gives you that opportunity to sound wise and what would you do?

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And what would you do? Well, that's part of the coaching principles that we teach, isn't it?

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Yeah. So you don't tell somebody how to do something. You ask them how they would approach it.

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Because if you tell somebody what to do, they're not learning. You ask them and it engages the

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hippocampus and they're learning. And if we're always telling people what to do, we're creating

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what's called learned helplessness. Yeah. Yeah. So it's where you should never do something for

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somebody else that they can do for themselves. So you should never think for somebody else when

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they can think for themselves. And so that technique of, hey, what would you do here is a

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very, very powerful leadership technique because you get the other person thinking rather than

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just following instructions. Well, also they may have a perspective that you've never heard of

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or thought of. That's it. How do you innovate if you don't ask people to innovate? That's it.

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And if you're not open to listening. So responsibility tenants hit the responsibility back in their

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court if they're whinging or pessimistic or got a problem throwing problems at you to say, okay,

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so how do we fix it? What can we do? Yeah. And to help growth. Help growth. Yes. If somebody's

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being negative or if somebody's maybe sounding a bit short or a bit towards bullying and you want

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to just ask them to clarify what their intent was. Yeah. Or if you have no idea and you want to seem

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wise. That's it. Or somebody's challenging your knowledge and you want to learn more from them.

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Just say, yeah, I could tell me more about that. Responsibility is now in their court.

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Responsibility tenants. Yes. Yes. All right. So I'm going to hit some responsibility over to

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Bose. Where are you? We've mentioned you many, mentioned you many times in our podcast. Who else?

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Bollinger. Still haven't heard from you. Yes. Lint. Yes. We've been supporting them. Yeah.

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We've been supporting Lint and we haven't supported Bollinger for a while. Maybe we

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should support them. Maybe that's why they're waiting for another order or maybe they hear the

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fizz on the microphone and then they'll reach out. Anyway, so good to see you again, Michelle. Thanks.

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Actually, we haven't done this for a while. Where can people find us? Ah, so they can either go to

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newmemory.com.au. For the training. For the training, but it's also, the podcast is on there.

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That's right. We moved the podcast on to there. But if you want to go straight, you can still go

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to captainandtheclown.com. Is it.com? Yeah, we haven't said this, right? Captainandtheclown.com.

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That's right. And then it's also on Spotify, on iTunes. Well, that's probably how they found

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us in the first place. Yes. But if they want to find the training and the keynote speaking,

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newmemory.com.au. Yes. Good to see you, Michelle. Bye, guys. Bye. Well, that was fun. That was fun.

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You're such a clown. The clown. Lady captain. Lady captain. And who's going to listen to this?

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Maybe I'm not. Thanks, mom.