G'day leaders. In this podcast, we talk about the skill or the technique of responsibility tennis,
hitting the responsibility back into their court when somebody's being pessimistic, whinging,
maybe insulting a whole range of different areas. But responsibility tennis takes it out of your
side of the court and puts it back into theirs. Enjoy. Why did it count backwards? And they
were now recording. What? Hello captain. What do I say? Come fly with me, let's fly, let's fly away.
What are we going to talk about? I don't know. So leadership, life and everything else. Yeah.
And we're live in Melbourne. Yes, we're live recording in Melbourne.
I wasn't at a wanky voice that I put on. I think I've used that one before. Hey Michelle. Hi guy.
In Melbourne. Yes, but eventually, finally. Eventually we tried to get down here earlier
this morning for work tomorrow, but the rain held us. Yeah, and Pog, it's actually the clouds
really low, it's on the buildings. You would have experienced this a fair bit when you were travelling.
Yeah, I didn't mind disrupt days. It wasn't great for passengers, but it was a bit of an adventure
where you'd end up and whether you'd actually fly or not. So yeah, it was always exciting. Yeah,
the pilot and the cabin, the captain and the cabin crew were very apologetic this morning. Yes,
that's right. They can't do anything. No, the airports have to cancel some flights and stall
others so that we can all come in safely. Yeah. Yes. So we're down here doing some influence
training for one of our clients. Yeah, it's exciting. Yeah, looking forward to it. But today,
I wanted to chat to you about something that we both use a lot and it's the concept of
responsibility tennis. Yeah, I didn't realise I'd been using it until when I met you and you gave
it a name. So responsibility tennis and of course it makes sense. Yeah, so the concept is, let's say
somebody's whinging at you or complaining about something, they're very pessimistic. Responsibility
tennis is simply hitting the responsibility to come up with a solution back in their court. So
what it looks like is, okay, so what can we do about that? That's right. Yeah, so it can be gentle,
it can be kind. Okay, so how do we fix that? What do we need to do? What have you tried?
Rather than trying to fix and provide the answer and fill the space all the time,
it's you put it back on the person. That's it. That's it. So you put the responsibility back in
their court. Okay, so what can we do about it? What have you tried? What have you done about it?
Who could you speak to? Who haven't you spoken to? Who's done it before? Who's the expert in this
area? I've got lots of them. I'm curious as to why you have that opinion. Tell me more, I'm curious.
I want to learn. So rather than saying you're an idiot, no, I disagree. But also saying that
gives you the opportunity to listen then rather than to trying to fill in.
And see it from their perspective. One of the things I like about this technique is that it
allows you to kind of create a barrier around yourself. I'm sure you're a bit like me, Michelle,
that when people are coming at you with their problems and that sort of thing, it's easy to
take on board their energy, their compassionate person like yourself, you take on board what's
going on in their lives. And what that tends to do is as somebody who's high in empathy,
you tend to then carry around a lot of other people's stuff, a lot of stresses. And so if you
can build a bit of a barrier around yourself, whereby if anyone whinges, you can kind of see it
coming in and you just simply hit the responsibility back over the barrier into their side of the court.
Okay, so how do we fix this? What do you need to do? What can you do? And it actually gives
the person agency, which I think is a very useful thing for us to do for each other.
Yeah, well, it becomes a habit, being a bit of a victim. And you see it, there may be some
people in your friend circle, colleagues, family members who, you know that when they come to you,
there's going to be a bit of a whinge happening or, you know, something bad is happening. And
there are people who are very unfortunate. However, there are also people who have a little bit of,
you know, a few bad things happen, but they tend to carry that around for a long time.
Yeah.
So rather than thinking, oh, here comes this person, when you do this, like you said,
gives them agency and also helps them break the habit. Because once you've been in that,
and I'm guilty of being a victim and carrying that around for a while, that being my story.
And once you're out of it and you have that ability to see that you are out of it and you
were in it, then you, I used to be horrified and think, oh my goodness, like what a horrible person
I would have been to be around. But now I look back at myself with compassion and okay,
give myself a virtual hug. I'm not there anymore. But it was actually was a colleague that, you know,
said to me, oh, everything bad seems to happen to you. What are you going to do about it? And
just asking one highlighting the fact that it was everything bad. And I'm like, no, it's not. But
then that was, had been my story. And then asking me what I was going to do about it. It's like,
oh yeah, I'm responsible. It's my responsibility. No one else's.
It's funny. You do meet people like that who almost have, tell me if you've noticed this,
that I've had people in my life that when you speak to them, it's almost like they drag
your whinging out of you. Your victimhood out of you. Cause they want to hear it.
That's it. And then they get used to it. And so then they see you again next time. You might
be in a great mood, but then all of a sudden you're talking to them about something negative in your
life. And I've noticed that in the past. And I try to catch myself whenever I go into that victim
mindset where you're whinging about something, complaining about something rather than focusing
on what you can do about it. But it's funny. There are some people who bring it out in you.
And you've got to be conscious of those people as well, because you don't want somebody to only see
you as a source of their intrigue in your negative stories. Well, it's almost like the junk, junk food
of feelings, isn't it? You don't, it's like, yeah, I like that the junk food of feelings. You can
become addicted. That's good to do. Yeah. It's like a sugar rush. No, no, but there are a lot of people
who are addicted to that drama. And so, yeah. So when, when, when you have somebody coming at you
with their own negative story, if you can hit it back into their court and say, okay, so what can
you do about it? It kind of releases the tension from that situation, but more importantly, it gets
them thinking with a different part of their brain. Okay. How do I fix this? What can I do about it?
How do I move myself out of this situation? And we all need friends like that. In fact, I'm very
lucky when, when I've, whenever I've been caught in that, I've got some great friends who I tend to
lean on, um, in those sorts of situations that just simply do that. They, they grab, grab their
tennis racket, they hit it back into my court and they go, all right, that sucks. What are, what are
you going to do now? Yeah. And yeah. So if you intentionally find those people there, they're a
gold mine, but also protects you from, from having it affect you. Like he said, you know, about the,
it attaches to you. It gives you that space. So one, you don't resent the person and run when you see
them coming, but also it's yeah, you, you walk away. You've actually helped the person, whether
they see it at the time or not. And, um, yeah, you're then able to, because you haven't taken on
their stuff, you're able to help someone else. We've got somebody that we know, uh, I'll name him
actually, Greg. He's, he's brilliant at diverting a conversation away from the negative. I love this
about him. He's really good about this. He's good with this. And I've noticed he's, he did it with
me a couple of times when we were, we met up out on the street and, uh, and I can't remember what
I was saying, but I do remember him diverting to the positive. And I thought, Oh, I like that about
you. That's brilliant. Yeah. No, it's really good. Greg's a fellow, aero-sexual. Yes. Yes, he is.
He is. Now the other, the other place you can use responsibility tennis or hitting the responsibility
back into the other person is, uh, it's related to confidence and knowledge. So have you ever
had somebody challenge your thinking or say you're wrong? Oh, yes. Yeah. So this responsibility
tennis technique can be used in those sorts of situations. So if Michelle, you said to me, Hey,
no, I disagree. You're wrong. I can now hit the responsibility back into your court to explain
to me, Hey, okay. How do you see it? Now the responsibility is back in your court. You now
have to show me how I'm wrong. And if you are a confident person, you're open to being wrong.
And now I'm going to listen with curiosity, listen to your side of whatever it is we're discussing.
And now whilst the responsibilities in your court, I'm going to be listening.
Yeah. It's almost like not, not that you would get to a debate, but a person who you can debate
well, can do that very well, like the responsibility tennis. So it's, they will agree or disagree and
then shoot it back to you. And, but they're also open to having that done to them because
they're confident in themselves, confident in being wrong and confident, confident, sorry, in,
in open, being open to hearing and learning something new. Yeah. Yeah. So next time somebody
challenges the way you think, just simply hit the responsibility back into their court. Okay.
Help me understand that from your perspective. Yeah. Share with me the way you look at that
and learn. That's what, that's what confidence is. It's, it's not just knowing what you know,
it's also being open to, to being wrong. Yeah. I think I've mentioned this before. It's also a good
way of not taking stuff on board. So sometimes there are people in your life who may be in a
group situation. And especially I'm thinking, you know, when you're younger, when you're a teenager
or, or, you know, very impressionable years that people, if they're insecure, they want to put,
they want you to feel like that. So they will say something degrading or something to put you down,
especially if you're in a group situation. And I've told the kids that if somebody does that to you,
because it will happen, it does happen that rather than taking it on and feeling less than,
or feeling like you're not worthy because you know that they're doing it to be nasty or to make you
look silly so that they don't put it back on them. I don't know what you mean by that. Can you explain
that? Most people, unless they're what, sociopaths would, would, would realize that what they've done,
what they've said, but they, they would then not repeat it or repeat it in a way. Oh no,
I didn't mean that. And then take it on back on them. Doesn't that's right. Can you explain
more about the, can you help me understand what you just said? Can you repeat that? I'm not quite
sure what your intent was there. That's right. Or I'm sure you didn't mean to sound nasty.
What was it that you meant? Did you, did you mean to sound nasty then? Did you mean to sound
insulting? It's, yeah, it's, it's getting the power back in a bullying situation, I guess.
That's interesting because at school I didn't have that ability. I was a very shy, I've told
everyone this shy sensitive little sook. And so I took any banter in the schoolyard as bullying. And
I was bullied by a particular guy. He delighted in making me feel like shit. I could just tell it in
his eyes. But I've learned as, as I've got older that men and in particular, especially in
construction and those sorts of industries, hang shit on each other. I wouldn't be using
this responsibility tennis in those sorts of situations. Now I like, you've mentioned this
before to me, and I really like the reason why. Yeah. And why you encourage it. And it's a good
thing. Yeah. So it's a way of men bonding and building rapport with each other. But it's,
there's a fine line, right? So you can tell when somebody's doing it intentionally to hurt somebody.
Do you think it's mainly an Australian thing? No, it's definitely overseas as well. So, okay,
let's go deep on this. So men hang shit on each other. And we do it for a particular reason. I
used to think that, you know, bullies were bullies when I was in school, but there's, there's almost
a biological reason to it. So if, if you want to know who somebody is, especially as a, as a man in
a, like in a workforce outdoor setting sort of situation, we hang shit on each other. Now, if you
get upset, what do I know about you? That you can't handle it. That you can't handle stuff. You can't
handle when the pressure's on. And so when we get into trouble, I don't want you on my team.
This is a really weird way of men finding out who they can trust. So if I have a go at you and it
impacts you and negatively, and you're kind of like sookie, like I was as a kid, then I know you,
I don't want you on my team when the shit hits the fan. Now, the other thing is if I hang shit on
you and then you get really nasty back, aggressive back again, I don't want you on my team because I
can't trust you. But if I hang shit on you and then you laugh and you hang shit on me, and we kind of
know the intent behind it and we're smart enough to understand the intent behind it, now you're on
my team. You're somebody who'll have my back when the shit does hit the fan. And not a lot of people
have taught this. In fact, I only discovered this kind of in the 30 years of teaching people,
especially a lot of people out in field work, that men hang shit on each other to see if they can
trust each other. Whereas I always saw it when I was at school as bullying. But there are bullies,
there are people who intentionally try and hurt others through these techniques, because they're
not either emotionally aware and not emotionally intelligent enough to know what they're actually
doing. And they're the sort of people you want to play responsibility with tennis with. You want to
say something like, that sounded really insulting. Was that your intent or you're just mucking around
here, mate? But if you're like a bunch of mates I just went away with for a weekend, where it's just
constantly hanging shit on each other, but everyone's laughing, everyone's having the best time,
then that's not bullying. That's men bonding. It's really weird. And like, I'm a man so...
Wasn't that bullying over bullying? Wasn't that hanging shit on each other about which team you
supported in the NRL? It was, it was. And so that's very different to the bullying that you often see
in schoolyards where kids are actually trying to hurt each other. Because they're trying to figure
out who they are. So when it's with malicious intent or malice, then that's when you play
responsibility tennis. And you say, okay, that sounded quite insulting. Was that your intent?
It's good in the workplace too, because you can, there are politics, obviously,
but you can put it back on the one, people have so much stuff going on in their lives.
Always have, but it comes in ebbs and flows. And it's just, there often seems to be, if someone
is going through some tough stuff personally, they bring it to work, but they don't want to bring their
home stuff to work, but it does impact them. So either they're short, they maybe strike out,
or they go inside or however they display it. But doing a responsibility tennis with them,
one, it helps them get out there if they're saying snarky stuff. Because sometimes they're not aware
of it. No, that's right. Because it's in their head about all the other stuff. And look, I get it,
life goes, you know, life happens. And that's part of who that person is. But they've got stuff and
often they're in pain and hurting, but not, so if there's not an opportunity. If you say to them,
that came across as quite insulting. Was that your intent? It gives them pause for thought.
Or even asking, are you okay? Are you okay? Yeah. This isn't you. This isn't how you normally are.
What's going on? That's right. And that's a form of responsibilities. Are you okay? It is, isn't it?
Yeah. Yeah. I just want to circle back around, if that's okay, back to what I was talking about
before, men hanging shit on each other. It's very, very important that we understand when and where
it's appropriate. And in a work environment, if what you're doing, the banter you're using,
is upsetting the other person. Then it's not appropriate. Yeah. It's not appropriate. And
it's your responsibility then to pick that person up and say, hey, mate, I wasn't serious.
No, it's out of line. I was out of line. I'm really sorry. So expecting them to be able to banter back,
that's where the line's been crossed. Yeah. So you can do it if the person is bouncing it back to you.
If you're having a game of, what do you call it? We'll call it,
work yard tennis, work yard banter tennis. If it's coming back and it's coming back genuine,
and you can read it, then it's good. But if the person's kind of not, or just kind of laughing it
off a little bit, but not giving it back, then you might want to check in. You might have met
somebody who is struggling and who is taking that as bullying. And that's really important as well,
understanding when that banter has become bullying. And it's a really important thing
to do. It's a really fine line for some people. You don't know that somebody is actually,
you might think that they're attacking us banter, but they're actually deep down really hurting.
You never know what's going on in somebody's life. I've seen it used positively in the workplace
where managers and leaders are getting the knowledge from their team. So rather than,
if there's a team member comes and is always asking what next, what next, and you're giving
the answer, then they're not learning. They're just coming and asking. Whereas if you're trying to
mentor them up, really, really get them up to you or above and really encourage them in their career,
the best way I've seen is like responsibility tennis where they'll, what would you do?
Yes. You tell me what are the considerations? All those questions can be, whenever you get asked,
what should I do next? Ask them because they potentially also, one, it gives them an opportunity
to step up. Two, it gives you the ability to see the edge of their knowledge where you can help.
But it also gives you the opportunity. I remember a captain saying to me once when we were flying,
and he would always say, what next? What do you think? Why do you think that? I questioned him on
it one day and said, you always ask and you try and get more and more out of it. He said jokingly,
I think it was jokingly, that he said, oh, no, well, you guys know more than me. You study more.
You study more. So I'm asking you. It makes me sound wise by asking and what would you do?
I think he was wiser than what he's letting on.
That's right. But it gives you that opportunity to sound wise and what would you do?
And what would you do? Well, that's part of the coaching principles that we teach, isn't it?
Yeah. So you don't tell somebody how to do something. You ask them how they would approach it.
Because if you tell somebody what to do, they're not learning. You ask them and it engages the
hippocampus and they're learning. And if we're always telling people what to do, we're creating
what's called learned helplessness. Yeah. Yeah. So it's where you should never do something for
somebody else that they can do for themselves. So you should never think for somebody else when
they can think for themselves. And so that technique of, hey, what would you do here is a
very, very powerful leadership technique because you get the other person thinking rather than
just following instructions. Well, also they may have a perspective that you've never heard of
or thought of. That's it. How do you innovate if you don't ask people to innovate? That's it.
And if you're not open to listening. So responsibility tenants hit the responsibility back in their
court if they're whinging or pessimistic or got a problem throwing problems at you to say, okay,
so how do we fix it? What can we do? Yeah. And to help growth. Help growth. Yes. If somebody's
being negative or if somebody's maybe sounding a bit short or a bit towards bullying and you want
to just ask them to clarify what their intent was. Yeah. Or if you have no idea and you want to seem
wise. That's it. Or somebody's challenging your knowledge and you want to learn more from them.
Just say, yeah, I could tell me more about that. Responsibility is now in their court.
Responsibility tenants. Yes. Yes. All right. So I'm going to hit some responsibility over to
Bose. Where are you? We've mentioned you many, mentioned you many times in our podcast. Who else?
Bollinger. Still haven't heard from you. Yes. Lint. Yes. We've been supporting them. Yeah.
We've been supporting Lint and we haven't supported Bollinger for a while. Maybe we
should support them. Maybe that's why they're waiting for another order or maybe they hear the
fizz on the microphone and then they'll reach out. Anyway, so good to see you again, Michelle. Thanks.
Actually, we haven't done this for a while. Where can people find us? Ah, so they can either go to
newmemory.com.au. For the training. For the training, but it's also, the podcast is on there.
That's right. We moved the podcast on to there. But if you want to go straight, you can still go
to captainandtheclown.com. Is it.com? Yeah, we haven't said this, right? Captainandtheclown.com.
That's right. And then it's also on Spotify, on iTunes. Well, that's probably how they found
us in the first place. Yes. But if they want to find the training and the keynote speaking,
newmemory.com.au. Yes. Good to see you, Michelle. Bye, guys. Bye. Well, that was fun. That was fun.
You're such a clown. The clown. Lady captain. Lady captain. And who's going to listen to this?
Maybe I'm not. Thanks, mom.