G'day leaders, in this podcast we talk about a couple of emotions that no doubt you've all experienced.
The first one is envy and the second one is jealousy.
This is all part of increasing our emotional intelligence as leaders. Enjoy.
Why do they count backwards? Are they? We're now recording.
What? Hello captain.
What do I say?
Come fly with me, let's fly, let's fly away.
What are we going to talk about? I don't know.
So leadership, life and everything else. Yeah.
And we're live. No, we're recording.
In the studio again. It's been too long. I know, it's been six weeks.
Oh it's ridiculous but we've had good reasons for not recording.
So much has happened. Singapore, Malaysia, Tokyo, then back.
And back and I have a new chapter. Yes, you do have a new chapter.
Very exciting. So do you want to fill us in on that?
I am no longer working for the tech startup that I was with.
So you gave it a good three years. I did and learnt so much.
And achieved so many things. It's been quite a success.
Absolutely, absolutely. But now getting ready to focus on?
On me. And your book?
Yes. Your book's coming out soon.
You've got, maybe we don't announce certain things that are coming up.
No, not yet. I'm not allowed to yet.
You're not allowed to yet. Okay. So there's other things that she's not allowed to say yet, folks.
She can't tell us yet but there's some exciting things on the way.
Let's just say that when one door closes it allows other doors to open.
Yes, and I'm really looking forward to seeing those doors open.
It's not just a Cessna where you close one door and the other's open.
Because of air pressure. No, it's just known for Cessna.
Oh, okay. I thought it was like you build up the air pressure and then pop the locks on the other side open.
No. It's having a go.
Yeah, yeah. So we've been a bit, I feel reticent.
Is that the right term? That we haven't been in the studio to record and we've had a few listeners reach out and say,
hey, hey, hey, come on, where's the next episode?
That's right. Here it is. Here it is.
Yes. Yes. Okay.
So I've been doing a fair bit of leadership work lately and the other day we were talking about emotional intelligence,
something that's very important in leadership.
And then we had a discussion and we thought that that would be the topic of today.
That's right. Yes.
But specifically we want to focus on only two words.
Yes. Jealousy and envy.
Jealousy and envy.
But just before we get to that, I think we might lay down as a foundation the definition of emotional intelligence
because it's something I'd like to come back regularly and talk about because I think emotional intelligence is something that we can all work on.
We'll need, it's very, very important in leadership.
In fact, emotional intelligence is highly correlated to success in careers and leadership, et cetera.
Yeah. So it's the extra.
It is the extra or it could even be the foundation.
Yeah. Yeah.
So the emotional intelligence, I see it essentially as someone being able to correctly identify and label other people's emotions,
correctly identify and label our own emotions, then being able to regulate our own emotions and then use all of that information to successfully navigate social interactions.
Yeah. Okay.
And I've said that definition about 20 times over the last few weeks, so it's kind of rolling off the tongue at the moment.
But it's being able to identify the emotions that we're feeling ourselves.
Yes.
Identify them, label them and hopefully regulate them.
If we have emotional intelligence, being able to correctly identify other people's emotions, label them correctly and identify, but then use that information to.
Appropriately.
Yeah.
So being able to read the room.
Read the room.
Read others.
Respond appropriately.
Read ourselves.
And I think it takes real emotional intelligence to understand when maybe we're not in a good way.
For example, if we're stressed, if our cortisol levels are too high and we need to start doing some things to regulate those.
Absolutely.
And I know myself, like even, and we've spoken about this before, you know, a text message is not great because whatever emotion you're in at the time is the lens that you put on that text message, for example.
You can also take that into a room.
Yes.
So with interaction with people, you may come in ready to fight.
You may come in, you know, blissfully unaware and they may be ready to fight.
So it's that thing of being able to, like you said, you know, being able to know yourself, read yourself, read others and then to respond appropriately.
And I think it starts from being conscious of that.
There's more than just your own lens, I guess.
Yeah.
So we look at the world through our own lens and we often don't necessarily project ourselves outside of ourselves to see what's going on with others.
We kind of react to others rather than assess others.
Does that make sense?
We always do it from our lens because that's the only lens we've got really.
So we are the center of our own universe.
Yeah.
And I'm imagining, and this is without knowledge, if you're assessing, if you're aware of yourself and then assessing others,
it's almost like when learning a second language or another language that you need to translate first before and then after a while it becomes fluent.
Yes.
Yeah.
I like the way you look at that.
Yeah.
So today we've chosen two words, envy and jealousy.
Yes.
And we had a discussion about what they were and what they meant to us.
And I've mentioned to you that I many, many years ago removed jealousy from my life.
It was a journey that I'd gone on and how it differs to envy.
So we're going to basically lay down the definition of these two words and then we'll get into them.
So the first one, envy.
Envy is essentially when you desire something somebody else has.
Yep.
And then jealousy is when you are afraid that somebody else might take something that you have specifically, maybe the relationship that you're in.
Yeah.
So we feel jealous when we're in a relationship and we think that they might be getting attention from somebody else and then we fear that we might lose that person.
Or in a work sense, if you're in a role and a colleague is speaking to your manager, your boss, your leader and you feel threatened that they may take from you what you have.
Yeah.
Tasks from you, maybe take your role or take a promotion that you're aiming for.
Yeah.
So the jealousy can be in different contextual situations.
It can be in a relationship.
It can be a work situation, it can be in a friendship situation where you see people being jealous of new people that come into the social network.
Oh, hold on.
They're taking the attention away from me.
Or my friend away from me.
Yeah, exactly.
We might lose a friendship.
So I want to start on envy though.
Envy is an interesting one because envy is linked to something we discuss in both the critical thinking course and the leadership course and that is what I refer to as black and white thinking.
It's where if somebody comes up with an idea that's different to your own, your instinct is to tell them why it won't work because if they're right, you're wrong.
That's right.
Yeah.
Because the brain thinks that in black and white, exactly that.
If that's black, then this must be white.
It has to be white.
There's no gray.
So binary thinking.
Yeah.
And something that we're all guilty of that when somebody is right, we're wrong.
If somebody says something that differs to our opinion, we can't have a nuance around it thinking that maybe they're right and we are right.
Yeah.
And one of the critical thinking exercises that we give is we get them to solve a problem.
They come up with an answer and we look at them and we go, hey, that's correct.
And then they sit down and stop thinking.
They don't look for other examples of correct.
They think there's one piece of it correct and they don't look for other opportunities, which could also be correct.
And it's an interesting thing that we think in binary and we both think that's where envy comes from.
Yeah, absolutely.
Because if they have something that we want, then we don't have and we can't have whilst they have it.
Exactly.
It's like only one person can have it.
Yeah, which is wrong.
But realistically, as we all know, that we can all have it.
And it's linked to the difference between a scarcity mentality and an abundance mentality.
I'm not sure if we've discussed this before in the podcast.
No, I don't think we have.
The difference being is a scarcity mentality, we think, oh, there's not enough to go around.
And so therefore I have to get my bit.
It's those selfish people who at the front of the Buff AQ are scooping all of the prawns onto their plate.
Not realizing that out the back there's another 50 kilos.
I've got to get mine because there's not enough.
So a scarcity mentality, you think there's not enough, so you try and grab for your bit.
But you're actually then creating an energy and also a mindset that you don't have enough, that you're in lack.
And one of the things we love talking about when we're having our coffee in the mornings is the subconscious mind
versus conscious mind and how the subconscious mind is listening to every instruction that we give it.
And it will obey.
Vocally or internally.
Internally or vocally through discussions with other people or with ourselves.
But yeah, the subconscious mind is listening to everything we say.
So if we basically have a scarcity mentality that, you know, I'm envious of them because they have and I don't.
I don't have enough, then your brain gets that message and says, oh, OK, so we're not meant to have enough
and kind of pulls you away from opportunities, pulls you away from acting in situations where you then would gain, I guess.
Well, I could be jumping the gun here a little, but being able to, because we're in control of how we think and what we think,
changing that to rather than they have and I don't, so that scarcity, they have I aspire to for envy.
Yeah.
So congratulations to them and I aspire to.
And that's it. I think that's a secret.
So when you see somebody that's got something that you would like or that you aspire to is instead of going, oh, I don't have,
you congratulate that person.
You said it today when we were discussing this.
I can't remember your exact words, but it was almost like, hey, congratulations for all those things that you've achieved.
That's right. Celebrate them.
Yes, celebrate them. I feel proud of you.
I'm showing pride towards you rather than envy towards you,
because when I have pride towards you and appreciation for you and what you did to get there, you're showing.
Well, you feel there's an abundance mentality.
That's it.
And so it's like, well done to you. Kudos.
Yes.
If you want that yourself, then that's something you can aim for and you can even then there's open discussion about how did you get there and be curious.
And I know we keep talking about being curious.
Listen with curiosity.
That's it, rather than listen to answer.
But it's that whole thing of how did you do that?
Like what did you do when this happened and this happened and how did you keep going?
And whether you take that path or not, it at least gives you a goal, a guideline, and you celebrate them.
And then when you're feeling that, it's that added sense of excitement in yourself because it's like it is achievable rather than they got it so I can't.
Yes.
It's almost like you create this energy of attraction towards it rather than a repulsion away from it.
So when you've got that lack mentality, the scarcity mentality, you're actually pushing yourself further away from it.
Whereas if you go, hey, well done, you look at what you've done.
That's amazing.
How did you get there?
And I'm so not envious, but proud of what you've done.
And then you show that that gratitude that somebody else has achieved it.
And you're kind of moving yourself towards it rather than away from it.
Yeah.
And the scarcity mentality is I don't have enough and there's not enough to go around.
And it puts you into a negative.
How come they got it? I deserve it.
I deserve it. How come I don't have it?
Yeah, I'm better than them.
Don't you remember when we did that as kids?
It's such a coming, oh, that's not fair.
And it puts you into a negative mindset and that negative mindset creates a negative energy.
And then that negative energy repulses or pushes away from you the things that you want in the first place.
Nobody's going to help you or give it to you or guide you towards it if all they see in you is this negative energy.
Well, I had a walk and talk with my friend Monica this morning.
And she, as she was saying, was, you know, that wherever energy goes, what is it?
Where attention goes, energy flows.
Yeah, that's Joe Dispenser.
That's it. And it's the same thing.
So if you have energy of positivity and congratulations and celebration about somebody succeeding,
then all you will see is success.
Yes.
And if you have the attention on how come they're not fair and all you will see then is it's something to back that up that life isn't fair and you suck and you get the blunt end.
And then you create it.
Yeah, exactly.
And it gets bigger and bigger because then you're right.
Correct.
I don't have enough.
And so your brain goes, OK, let's make sure you don't have enough.
That's right.
And then we'll do everything in our subconscious power to make that a reality.
I don't have enough.
I don't get.
I never achieve.
I never do.
So when you're envious of others achievements, you are essentially cementing yourself in that state of never having enough.
Because if you took action, then you would be wrong.
And our subconscious mind doesn't like to be wrong.
We don't we don't like to create a world that isn't doesn't fit in with the way we see our narrative.
That narrative, our internal narrative.
So envy is something that we want to remove because it moves you away from the thing that you're envious of.
That's right.
So if you change envy to celebration, then you've got a better chance of achieving whatever it is you're envious of.
Exactly. Because you're bringing that towards you and you're doing it with the energy of celebration rather than the energy of envy.
Envy pushes things away.
Celebration brings things towards you.
That's right.
And so jealousy is fearing that you're going to lose something.
So holding on for grim death.
Because in the past, I've actually thought that envy and jealousy are similar things, but they're not.
They're actually opposite.
I have I seriously have used them interchangeably.
Absolutely.
And and not fully understood.
So when you said when you looked up the definitions today, I was like, of course that makes sense.
But I have not thought of it that way.
The reason that jealousy has is even in my mind, like how do I say this many, many years ago on my journey to becoming confidence,
I removed jealousy from my body.
I removed it. I removed it.
I kept on saying to people who would listen to me, it is such a wasted emotion.
It is such a waste of energy because as a young man, especially an insecure young man,
I was easy to get it was easy to get jealous and all that sort of stuff because it's all based on insecurity.
Right.
So let's use relationships as an example.
If you're in a relationship and you're jealous of other people's attention on your partner, that's all about you.
It's all about your own insecurities.
And so what it's basically saying is that I fear losing.
Right.
And so then you get that insecurity washing over you.
You're your energy goes negative.
You become not a very nice person when you're jealous.
You start to behave in quite desperate and then nasty.
And then you becoming the sort of person that other people wouldn't want to be around.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
And so you're in effect then creating the energy around you that would push others away from you.
And so then they do go off and maybe flirt with this other person because why would they want to hang around you
when you've got this negative awful energy of jealousy around you, which is based on your insecurity.
So the jealousy in effect is going to create that which you fear in the first place.
I'm laughing inside.
I'm thinking of a time in a relationship where I was jealous of this one particular woman
and the person that we had a mutual friend, let's just say.
And the story will be in your book.
He really wasn't worth it.
But at the time I was so jealous of her because she was going to take from me this person.
And so I was acting in a desperate way and she was acting in a desperate way.
And little did we know there were many others acting in desperate ways.
Seven. I understand at the same time.
But it was like, you know, stepping away and it's like anything.
If you're too close to the controls, you can't see everything.
So, you know, obviously the person who stepped a meter behind can see so much more than the person who's in it.
And now stepping back and looking, it was hilarious.
Like it's actually ridiculous.
But in the time, at the time, it felt real. It was all real.
Absolutely. And now I have an amazing friendship with a couple of the people that were also involved,
not the person that it was around.
We should do a whole episode on this.
We should ask all their permission because it is the best story ever.
And our listeners are going, come and tell us more.
But I think, yeah, once we removed that fact of hang on,
what is it that we're jealous of potentially losing this person?
And then we realized, hey, the person's, if you want that person, you can have him.
You can have him. I gift him to you.
And we were all like, no, I gift him to you.
We don't want, but it's funny how once you get clarity then about what it is that you're losing with jealousy
and you do a deep dive, you think, hang on, I'm actually not, that's not, I'm not afraid of losing that.
It's more losing myself.
It's a reflection on you rather than what you're losing.
Yeah.
And that was a realization I had many years ago.
And I mentioned this to the partner I was with at the time that I'm not a jealous person.
It offended them.
It was almost like, oh, how could you not be jealous of potentially losing me?
And that was more about their insecurities than mine.
And I basically was trying to explain to them at the time.
I said, well, if you leave me, then clearly I'm not what you need.
That's it.
And I think that's an evolved, emotionally evolved person who comes to that.
But, you know, forgive us because we don't start that way.
No, we don't. We don't.
This is a journey, you know, you and I have both been on.
But so when I'm trying to discuss it with that person, I was saying, look, if you leave me,
that's because clearly I'm not what you need.
And I only ever want to be with somebody who I fulfill their needs.
And at that time, I'd learned to like myself.
Yeah.
And I thought, well, I like me.
And if I'm not good enough for you, then you should go off and find the person
that's good enough for you.
But that doesn't reflect on how I feel about me because I'm confident now.
I was insecure growing up. I was an insecure young man.
I certainly had jealousy.
But then I realized jealousy is such a wasted, wasted thing because it really holds you in your insecurities.
So when you get rid of jealousy and you think, hold on, I like me.
I like who I am. I'm working on me.
I'm not perfect in any shape or form.
But if you leave me, if you go off with somebody else, then that's on you.
That actually reflects more on you than me.
And I have no reason to be jealous.
And so I always pictured, I always thought in my mind if it did happen and they did leave me
or did go off or did cheat or whatever, I thought, well, actually, it would be great information.
Perfect information for me to realize, hold on, I'm not the right person for them.
They're not certainly not the right person for me because they don't value me the way I want to be valued.
And so therefore that freed me up.
I was no longer fearful.
I was no longer worried.
I didn't entertain those stupid thoughts, which made me a happier person.
And I seriously believe that because I was a happy person, I was a better person to be around.
And then that then stops whatever it was that was going to make them leave anyway.
I think what you said about information rings true in the fact that I've always looked
at my mentors and friends, colleagues, family.
If somebody else has gone through something or is going through something,
I'm observing just as others are observing me.
And I think I've taken from them when somebody has and again, I'm very fortunate.
I've had, I have amazing friends who I feel sometimes a lot of the time are better at this than me.
They, when it comes to something like that, they do it in such an eloquent way.
They are the ones that say that's not meant for me.
It is purely information.
If you know, people come and go, jobs come and go, it's not meant for me.
And they look for the positive in it and not to say that they don't feel a bit shitty at the time and get a bit upset,
but they very quickly turn it around, look for the information and see it as information.
So they remove it from their ego.
And then they can rationalize it and go, hey, okay, it's not for me.
I'm seeing this as a redirection, you know, rejection is redirection.
And they honestly do it rather than just say it.
And I see that and I'm inspired by that.
But also because it's been done, it almost gives you the script.
So you go, okay, the next time that happens to me, I know how I can react.
And how I want to react. That's it.
I also, I like to point out that when you do this,
you're essentially removing your jealousy and you're increasing your trust.
And there's a wonderful thing about trust.
If you give it, you're more likely to receive trustworthy behavior.
If you give the opposite, you're more likely to receive the opposite.
So there's many, many studies that we talk about in the leadership course
about the importance of trusting our team, trusting those that report to us.
Because if we say to people, we trust you, they're more likely to live up to that.
And we'll come back, we'll tie this back to jealousy and relationships later.
But there's a, I've read that, oh, we both know this.
In Australia, we get given 10-day sick leave, yeah?
Yeah.
Okay. So it's, and we call it a sick leave entitlement.
So we even call it an entitlement.
But there's countries where they don't have 10-day sick leave.
They have three months without a doctor's certificate.
And I've read that in those countries,
the amount of sick leave that people take is a lot less than here.
So we call it a sick leave entitlement.
And in the countries where, sorry, in the companies where it doesn't accrue,
people take all of it.
Yeah. They take their 10.
Because they're entitled.
They're not, I'm entitled to it.
It's mine.
And we don't get it back.
Oh, I will hang that up.
Apologies.
And so we take it because we think we're entitled to it.
Now in the countries where we say, hey, three months without a doctor's certificate,
please don't come into work, on average, they take three days.
Wow.
Yeah.
And so one of my fantastic clients, I'm not sure if they would be okay with me mentioning them,
but they're in an industry that has a lot of blue collar workers.
And they recently changed something.
And I love this about this company.
They went from 10 day sick leave entitlement,
as you have in Australia under legislation, I believe.
And they said unlimited.
They went to unlimited sick leave.
And have a guess what happened?
It reduced.
Dramatically.
The amount of sick leave that was taken reduced dramatically simply because the company was saying,
They're trusting.
We trust you.
And when you say to somebody, we trust you,
you're more likely to live up to that expectation.
And when we say, we don't trust you, you're more likely to live up to that expectation.
And that goes back to the jealousy bit.
So if you're jealous and you're constantly trying to dig your claws into the-
And hold on to it.
Hold on because I don't trust you, I don't trust you.
Yeah.
You're saying to the person, you're not a trustworthy person.
Nobody likes to be labeled somebody who's not trustworthy.
So therefore you're not trustworthy.
Yeah, exactly.
And so then the reaction is, well, stuff you.
Yeah.
I'll go off and be that untrustworthy person that you're telling me that I am through your jealousy.
Yeah.
And so jealousy pushes people away.
It doesn't bring people towards you.
And that was something else that I realized that the jealous people were pushing their partners away.
The jealous people push opportunities away.
They push jobs away.
They put- because it changes their behavior.
Nobody likes being around that jealous person.
Can I just say though that there are dicks in companies that do take-
Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.
Sorry.
I'm not suggesting that everyone is going to live up to your trusting expectations, but the majority would.
The majority would.
So I think we need to change our relationship to jealousy and envy and try and reduce them and remove them.
Because they're emotions that create negativity in you.
Negativity pushes things away.
Yeah.
Positivity attracts.
That's right.
And so if you can remove jealousy and envy, you will be attracting things.
Well, if we drink to feel good, smoke to feel good, take illicit drugs to feel good, eat, shop, watch TikTok to feel good.
If we can change our mindset to feel good, that's cheaper and faster and quicker.
I like where you're going there.
Okay.
All right.
Work on our mindset.
I like that.
Yeah.
That was a good fun one.
I like that.
Enjoy that.
It was good being back in the studio.
Yes.
We'll be doing more.
So Bollinger still haven't contacted us.
No.
Bose still haven't contacted us.
Lindt.
We've been supporting you.
We've been supporting you, Lindt.
But we still haven't received any calls from you.
No.
The car wash kid is still sponsoring us.
Yes.
Although he might need to wash a car or two to continue this sponsorship.
That's right.
He hasn't had the opportunity.
So anyway, so good to see you again, Michelle.
Lovely.
Bye.
Well, that was fun.
That was fun.
You're such a clown.
You're a clown.
Lady cat.
And who's going to listen to this?
Maybe our mom.
Thanks, mom.