Guy Newman: G'day leaders, in this podcast we had the pleasure of speaking with Peter Orr. Peter is a multi award-winning CIO, in fact in 2017 he won the Australian CIO of the Year and his career has a line of innovations that have changed the world. around him quite dramatically. He's an amazing leader. I've had the privilege of observing him and working with his teams over the years. And in this podcast, we speak about how he thinks about innovation and what's important in leadership from his perspective. Enjoy. Michelle Huntington: Why did it count backwards? Oh no, we're now recording. Guy Newman: What? Hello, Captain. Come fly with me. Let's fly, let's fly away. Michelle Huntington: What are we going to talk about? Guy Newman: I don't know. Leadership, life and everything else. Michelle Huntington: Yeah. Guy Newman: And we're live. Michelle Huntington: No, we're recording. Guy Newman: There was a big echo there because we were in a different studio. Yeah. Today we have a special guest and when we first put this podcast together, we made a list of people that we wanted to get on it and Peter was at the top of our list and we finally made it happen. Welcome, Peter Hall. Peter Auhl: Oh, thank you very much. Lovely to be here today in my own house. Guy Newman: And thank you for putting on this beautiful view out your window. I know, looking out the window, it's beautiful. Peter Auhl: It's pretty specky, isn't it? Wouldn't want to be anywhere else right now. No, it's beautiful. Very good. Lovely to see you both. Guy Newman: Yeah, you too, mate. Well, we met a long time ago, and in our leadership courses, I talk about you a lot. We talk about the leadership example that you've shown, and I've learnt things from you, so thanks for taking the time so we can pick your brain about what makes a good leader. Peter Auhl: Looking forward to it. Pick a way. Guy Newman: All right, that's the start. So, I'll throw you straight on the spot. I'll tell our listeners later why I believe you to be a great leader, but from your perspective, what makes somebody a great leader? Peter Auhl: Look, I think being authentic is probably the most important thing. So being who you are, so showing up in a consistent way, showing up, you know, believing in you. I think that's really important as a leader. A person told me once that the most important thing that you can do as a leader is be consistent. So if you're a crazy leader, be a crazy leader every day. If you're an angry leader, be an angry leader every day. So if you're leading people, people want to know what they're getting. And I think that's a really important part of leadership. So that authentic and consistent approach to leadership is really, really important. Michelle Huntington: Now, when we were chatting just before, you mentioned Frankenstein leadership. What is Frankenstein leadership? Peter Auhl: Look, I think rather than taking attributes from one person, Michelle, in my life, I think what I've done is tried to glean people, glean things from people throughout my career. So, you know, people like Guy and people like others, where you go, I like the way that they did that bit. And I think that's a really important thing to think through when you're creating your own style. not mimicking yourself on someone else, but actually building your own brand and your own style of leadership through taking bits and pieces. So Frankenstein's, I guess, my version of, over my career, I've seen people do certain things and I've said, I really like that. I may not like everything that they do though, and that's okay. So it's about bringing those things in together and turning that into my own style, which I actually think it creates a point of difference rather than looking for a specific mentor. making sure that you've got opportunities to look into the leadership styles of many. Guy Newman: So what are some of the body parts that you've taken? Peter Auhl: The corks in the neck. I was going to say it started with the bolts. Look, I think there's a few things. One is I've always, when I've been mentoring people, I got really good advice when I was in my late 20s. someone said the first thing you need to do in your career is make a plan. And I'd never really thought about myself up until then and went, okay, well, I need a plan, a leadership plan for myself as well as others. So I think even things like that, now when I mentor people, it's the first thing I talk to them about, have you got a plan? Because I felt that that was a really important thing that I'd never really thought through before. That was probably the only thing I took from that person. But I thought that was really clever advice to go, have you got a plan? It was a real simple takeaway. Michelle Huntington: And was that, just on that, was that a plan for the next year, five years, your whole career? What was that? Peter Auhl: Yeah, look, I sat down and built a plan and I basically built a plan to say I wanted to be a Chief Information Officer by the time I was 45. And it was only because I had that plan, I achieved that when I was 34. Because, you know, it gave me purpose. So when I was looking at my next steps, I took backward steps sometimes, you know, it's from a monetary perspective, from a career, but some people are going, why are you doing that job now? So it gave me that opportunity to think about the breadth of my leadership style, not just the depth. So it was about looking at ways that I could be full as a leader. If I wanted to be a CIO by the time I was 45, what were the attributes that I needed to actually do that? I wasn't very strong in procurement and contract management, so I went and acted for the procurement and contract manager head. I wanted to learn more about infrastructure management, so I went and did what I could to actually take over those sorts of roles. So when I was in my late 20s, early 30s, I was really starting to get that breadth rather than just depth. That was one thing that I took away from that particular conversation that formed part of my Frankenstein leadership style. I like it. I want to hear more about the other body parts. Guy Newman: I think you could coin this term and write a book. Peter Auhl: I think I'd have to go actually copyright it after this podcast. Frankenstein.com. Frankensteinleadership.com. There you go. I think, you know, I was around a leader that was really open with people about their performance, not judging people on time, but judging them on outcomes, and I saw that really early. And I saw the benefits of that really quickly as well, like sort of creating a culture where people weren't told to do things or encouraged to do things. So that was another element of leadership that I thought was really, really clever. And that balance between fun and accountability and structure, I think getting that right, particularly in my industry, is really critical as well. That was another body part that I took from someone to use your term, Guy. So, you know, I think that balance is really important. And then on top of that, I had some really great leaders that were really strong with the rigour. So, governance and looking at ways that we could make sure that we're investing correctly. So, it was probably in my early 30s, I started to really hone in on effective decision making and how you make good decisions, and what made good decisions, and then what frameworks needed to be put in place were really important. I often found it interesting, having worked a lot of my career in governments, they've often got risk committees that manage risk. They don't have opportunity committees that manage risk. So if you come with a different lens, sometimes you actually open up a different door. And I think lots of people talk about innovation. It creates that purposeful innovation rather than innovation for the sake of it. So that governance part's certainly another part of the Frankenstein leadership style. Guy Newman: Well, just going down that path of innovation, one of the things that you're quite famous for is the innovation trail that you've left behind you. We might talk about it now. You won CIO of the year. Which year was that? Peter Auhl: I was a while ago now, 2017. Guy Newman: And that was based on the work that you're doing at that time at the City of Adelaide. And I had the fortune to watch what you did there. So could you just share with us some of the innovations that you did there, but more importantly, how did you arrive at them? Peter Auhl: Yeah, it's a really good question and this is, I guess, a really important part from my perspective around innovation and innovation that's purposeful starts with really good discovery. So, you know, that sort of recognition was really, you know, a team effort around how we actually pulled together some of these innovative ways to deal with problems. If you look at things like all of the projects that I've led, it starts with empathy, it starts with listening, it starts with, at the City of Adelaide, the City of Adelaide had a really clear agenda around Adelaide's growth, and I went, well, what can I do to participate in that? What are the things that I can build? or what other things that I can contribute to actually help their growth agenda, which is really important for me to have that orientation point. So this wasn't just going off and doing something random. This, you know, honed back to the purpose of what the organisation was trying to achieve, and that was growth for the city. But, you know, again, that position of empathy. So these projects started with really strong discovery, going and listening to people, going and talking to businesses, asking them questions like, why aren't you growing? You know, really important. Michelle Huntington: So was this like getting to understand exactly what the requirements were rather than the box ticking of, we think they need this. Peter Auhl: Yeah. Getting in there. So if you look at Tangier-Gadelaid, which is probably, you know, one of the projects I'm most proud of, it's multi-generational infrastructure that's going to be, you know, accessed and leveraged over time. But it started with that question around, you know, really thinking through what is the problem we're trying to solve. And it started with people saying or thinking that they just needed faster internet services. And that wasn't the case. So it wasn't about faster internet wouldn't solve the problem. This was about productivity at its heart, which was businesses trying to get access to the cloud. You know, back then the cloud was quite new. and they were competing over the internet for services in the cloud. So they could see when kids would get home from school, start using Netflix or whatever it was, and there was congestion and contention on the internet, excuse me, and when all they were trying to do was get to their cloud service. So if you look at that project, for example, Tengu Gadolab was more about how do we segment out networks where internet becomes one service on top of the network, it's not the service. So part of it is business to cloud networks, part is business to business connectivity, part is the internet. So it's very different, but it started with that problem. So there was a lot of pressure about, well, why can't just faster internet solve that problem? It may have, but it's not, I wouldn't have thought that's going to resolve the problem indefinitely either. As we know, as soon as the internet becomes faster, guess what happens? We get 4K plus TVs and everything changes so that we get higher definition. Michelle Huntington: If it was about growth in Adelaide, then more people coming to use it. Peter Auhl: Correct. In fact, part of the story of that project was we were actually making the internet faster. So when you think about it, a sub-benefit of that project is you're taking traffic off the internet and putting it onto other parts of the network where it's not interfering with the network, so all of a sudden kids get a dividend as well. So again, it's going through that process. It's going through that process of really, that curiosity, which is important, and looking at it from breadth, again, not just depth. So, sitting down, I'd often sit down at tables with people that were disadvantaged, or people that are coming from different personas, whether they're business owners or visitors, or didn't speak the language, and ask questions. And I think that's something that we forget sometimes, particularly in my industry. We're here to serve. Guy Newman: I'm going to tell a story, Michelle, about something that Peter did once and then I've got a question at the end of it. So I was doing a presentation at one of the organizations that Peter worked at and it was two rooms that had a divider. The divider was closed but the computer that I was running my presentation on was in the other room and therefore the little USB dongle for my clicker was in the other room. And it was pretty obvious early on that I had to run to one side of the room to click to the next slide and then I'd run back to the middle and then I'd click to the next slide. And I don't think most of the audience that were there, that was actually Peter's team, noticed what was going on after a couple of minutes. But after about 10 minutes, Peter just left the room, came back in, he'd walked into the other room, got an extension cord, plugged it into the computer, then walked up and then plugged my little dongle in, looked at me, put his thumb up as if to say, try it now, I tried it and then no longer did I have to run over to the side of the room. And afterwards, I spoke to a few people that were in the audience and they didn't notice any of that happening. Wow, seamless transition. So, I'm presenting and they're focusing on what I'm presenting but Peter noticed a problem that was existing, straight away solved it and then it was seamless for the audience. They didn't know what had happened and afterwards when I requested, I told them about it. They didn't even know that it had happened. And so I said, why didn't you notice that your new boss has walked out of the room, got a big USB extension cord, and fixed a problem that he saw in the moment? And then I spoke to Peter about it later, and he said, well, my job as a leader is to clear the way, clear the path, remove hurdles for people to be able to do their job. And where did that Frankenstein part come from? Peter Auhl: That's a really good question. I think it's something I've tried to teach my children as well about what's next. So when you're doing something, and I think it's my passion for building things and things like that. My son now is fantastic with the what's next. And what's next comes from understanding what's happening right now. So if you're being present and observing, which you should, if you're actually participating in something, you should actually be present and you should be looking with empathy. If I was building something and my son was with me, he'd be thinking about what tool I'd need next, or if he was doing part of the role, I would be looking at what he needs next, and I think that's an important part of that. Your question around where that came from, it's tricky to answer, and I think it's probably come from being brought up in a country where you don't have everything at your fingertips, so you've got to make do. And I've never had an easy life. I've never, there's been no, you know, silver spoon in my mouth, for lack of a better word. You know, everything's been a hustle. You know, my mum passed away when I was 11. You know, I've had to put myself through everything. I've had to fund everything in my life myself, and I'm proud of that. but that comes with, I guess, an extra set of responsibilities. So you're far more resourceful, you're thinking ahead, you want to make every moment count, because if you're working during the day and studying what you can at night and trying to push yourself forward, you need to be resourceful. So looking at others is an important part of that. Guy Newman: So yeah, I guess my question would be though, you've been resourceful, had to be resourceful for yourself. When did that translate into you looking at the path in front of all of the people that you lead, which is what you do. I've seen this for years and years and years and it's one of the things I talk about in our courses. is that you look at the path in front of all of those leaders who are leaders within your team, and you seem to look at the path forward and identify the obstacles, remove those obstacles, and quite often you're doing it without them even noticing that you're doing it. And that's something that we've spoken about before. That's your mindset. My job is to clear the path. So you've cleared the path for yourself, but when did it translate into clearing the path for everybody else? Peter Auhl: Look, I don't know the moments but and it's very humbling to even you know, talk through these things It's just it's just how I am. Yeah, I don't think it's something can make about me. There's nothing I don't think that's part of my Frankenstein leadership style. It's just part of me as a human being I just think you know, I care about people. I'm an empath, you know, I'm altruistic. I genuinely I want to make a difference and I want people to be, you know, making a difference and I get my best kicks out of watching people succeed. Guy Newman: Do you know, one of the things I call you when you're not around, so we're both geeks. I started out in IT, you had your whole career in IT, but I call you a people geek as well as a technology geek. You're certainly a technology geek every time I speak to you. You've got the latest device, the latest this, latest that, but you're a people geek. I think you have a great perspective on watching people, learning about people and what they need from your leadership style, which is one of the things that I speak about. Peter Auhl: Yeah, and I think it's about, like, that being present's important, and I think, you know, I'm not sure if I told you this story, I think I probably did, but, you know, I was at a restaurant on a weekend, one weekend with my daughter, and I'm not sure if I've told you this story, but She was colouring in sheets and the waitress, Emma, who was there, she had run out of colouring sheets and my daughter, Christina, was quite young and she was right into colouring and she was getting quite frustrated at the table. So, you know, this is not just about me, it's about watching and others. And I watched her walk away and come back with these extra colouring sheets and I said, but you said there was none left. And she said, well, I just jumped on the internet and printed some more out. And I went, wow, okay. And I said, what are you doing? And this was on a weekend. She goes, I'm studying IT, you know, in Sydney. I'm about to try and get a job. I'm worried because I live with my dad. Mum and dad had separated I think. But anyway, dad was really important to her. She was worried that she was going to have to leave the area to go get a job. And I said, no you're not. You're going to come see me Monday morning and here's my card. And she did, and I said, you need to be there at 8.30, not 8.45, not 8.15, 8.30. So I put some conditions around that she was there. I put her into the graduate program, and now I think she's in London working as a HR systems engineer or something like that, earning a Monty, and loving it. And we still keep in touch, but it's about not just identifying where are the challenges, it's identifying talent and people that share your vision, and getting that tipping point. You're more likely to see me on a graduate recruitment panel than you are on a senior panel, because it's a lot harder to actually pick talent at that early stage from a cultural fit point of view. Because definitely in my industry, we teach people a lot of things. You don't have to have all the things there at the beginning. Guy Newman: I do remember you telling me that story and I think what a great example of identifying in somebody skills that aren't necessarily the technical skills that we look for in particular jobs and industries where, what's your, does your CV or do you have a degree? Peter Auhl: It's just customer service. Guy Newman: Yeah, and it's thinking. Empathy skills. Empathy, yeah. Michelle Huntington: Yeah, I mentor people and generally young people and one of the things they say is that they're worried because they are so young, so inexperienced. They feel that they're in competition with people who are already in the industry. And I tell them that they have an amazing opportunity because people tend to have a bias against every generation and different cultures, et cetera. So if you do anything that is outside of that bias, outside of the stereotyping of that bias, then you stand out as being, wow, you're amazing. I encourage these people to, these young people, to reach out. You know, people say, oh, young people don't want to communicate. You can't get them on the phone. They only want to text. They use emojis to communicate. So I've heard from some of the young girls, they'll send a letter or they'll contact on LinkedIn somebody that they admire, they want to work with, work for, or want to speak with. These people are so taken back by the fact that they reached out. They're like, wow, you must be amazing and so they using the stereotyping and the bias to and and these people are very like the Young girls that I talked to are very intelligent. Anyway, they just are not sure because of their self-confidence hasn't grown yet So it's utilising that ingenuity that you would use at home in their other jobs as part of their toolkit to actually shine and show their point of difference. Peter Auhl: 100%. Just to pick up on one interesting fun fact that I'm not sure, you probably have thought through this, but isn't it ironic that back in Egyptian times we wrote in hieroglyphics and now we write in English and now we're back into hieroglyphics again. So it's just picking up on your emoji sort of point there. I find that sometimes hard to actually translate but, and I wonder if like in another, you know, 10,000 years time people will look back and go, What were they talking about back there? What was this thing with the mushroom coming out of its head? Was there a nuclear war or what was going on? They have some special sort of research facility that just unpacks emoji conversations. You're right and I think Just to your point, Michelle, around confidence, and I think part of leadership is actually helping people build that, you know, giving them permission. Part of leadership is to create safe space where people can actually experiment. Not forever, it's not about failing forever, but if you're going to fail, fail fast. And as a leader, you're there to actually guide the way, you're not there to tell the way. And I think that's a really critical thing to do. Building people's confidence, in my experience as a leader, comes in multiple facets. It comes in creating that energy in the team, that culture that's not just about, you know, people often talk about how do we create an innovative culture. It's not. It's just about creating a culture where people feel okay being themselves. So back to the original point of leadership, it's about being authentic. Everyone feels different at work than they do at home often. So how do you create a space where people can just be themselves? And also, as a leader, you need to find where the square pegs are in the wrong hole. Everyone's got their area of passion. If you can find that, it's a home run for them, for you, for the organisation, for productivity. Michelle Huntington: Well, they've got skin in the game then. Peter Auhl: They've got skin in the game. And they go home. I have this belief, call me crazy, but I have this belief that most people want to go home at night and go, I smashed it out of the park. They want to go home at night and go, I absolutely smashed it. They don't want to go home at night and go, not sure how I went today. So, if you create that environment where they feel successful, that breeds success, I think. Guy Newman: Can we go back to the innovation piece, because your career is littered with, that's probably not the right term, there is a plethora of innovations that you've left behind when you've moved on to your next role. The innovations, just strewn, is that the right term? Strewn behind you. Strewn, strewn. But one of the exercises we do in a critical thinking course is I get people to break up into groups and we give them a very famous thinking problem by a guy called Edward De Bono. And then they come up with a solution and I get everyone to share their solution. They throw it in the middle of the room. And 9 times out of 10, actually more like 99% of the time, as soon as I throw their solution into the middle of the room and I ask all the other groups to discuss it, they tell them why it won't work. And my big message to the world is that Every company wants to be innovative, innovative. Did I say that right? Innovative. And it's a value on everyone's wall. But I think what stops innovation is leadership behavior. Because when I come to you with an idea, and if your first instinct is to tell me why it won't work, I'm not coming to you with an idea again. So with a career that's full of innovations, how do you go about creating an environment in your teams where innovation can thrive? Peter Auhl: And I think innovation's a really overused term as well, like I've often seen innovation that's not purposeful also. So I think whilst there has been innovative things that have happened through my life, I think it's more the purposeful part of it that I'm proud of, not necessarily the innovation at the back of it. I think back to that process, that process of empathy is really important. So I've never ever been upset with anyone if they've come to me and said I've made a mistake and when we've unpacked it they've said here's the process that I went through to make a mistake and I think that's really important. It's important for people to know that it's not just about doing things that are in their in their thought bubble, it's about going through a process so that we can make sure that when you're investing things, you're actually doing it with purpose. And that's really important. I've got a saying as well, and it's hard to create, it's easy to criticise. So at your point, at your point about your activity that you do when you're doing coaching, throwing something into the middle of the room and everyone saying how it's not going to work, innovation for me, and I've been around leaders that have believed in me, And that's important also. Having someone that is your champion, that sits above you, and that's your role as a leader, be that champion for people underneath you. So it's almost paying it forward. Not closing the door before, at the early stages is really, really important. So I've often had people be critical of things after it's been created, because you can, and that's healthy and that's okay. But it's far harder to create something for the first time and that's what innovation should be. It's not copying someone. It's doing something different. So allowing that space for people to have that ability to be curious. Michelle Huntington: Have you ever had an experience where, especially in early, when you started out your journey, where you've had ideas and you can see, because you're a brilliant person, but you can see how it's got legs, how this will work, but those around you haven't at the time. How have you managed to, one, go on, but two, Remove it from yourself your ego and we talked about this in One of the courses about ego and confidence and being able to remove an idea So they're peeping the idea not you. Hmm. How have you managed to do that? Or have you ever had to do that? I Peter Auhl: Yeah, look, and I think, you know, when I was in my 20s, when I was honing my skills in these areas, I failed dismally a number of times. You know, I took it personally, I tried to own it, and that wasn't, you know, that's not a good way of looking at things. So I think, I'm going to harp on about this, but it's the process. You know, if you go through a good process of curiosity and empathy and understanding what it feels like, not just looks like, but feels like from someone else, It's very hard to debate. Because anytime things get wobbly, you come back, you hone back to what's important. So at Adelaide, it was the Clare story activity that we did. People would say, how would Clare feel? So you actually need to go through a process of passing the baton back to the owners, who are the consumers of whatever you're trying to achieve. So I think that's, from my perspective, that's the answer, it's the process. So you know you're actually resolving a problem. allowing people to be participating in that by going through a process of understanding. So it's the why, you know, if you're a Simon Sinek fan, it's the why not the what now that really matters. And then allowing them to actually take carriage of that. And then you're there to guide. It is hard, like, because, you know, good leaders, you know, innovative people, purposeful innovation, you know, can see over the horizon. It's not just about what's in front of you. Some people can't see over the horizon. So it's challenging sometimes to actually take people on for the journey. So what I've learned is it's that process, that human-centered approach to things, that customer-focused approach to things allows people to see what it would feel like, what the future would feel like, not just look like. Michelle Huntington: So you need to be a good salesperson as well. Peter Auhl: I think you need to be a good storyteller. Yeah. Okay, so I think you need to be... Not telling fables. You need to be a good strategic storyteller about finding out, again, what is it the organisation, what is it, if it's an organisation or if it's a home, what's your purpose? What's your North Star? Like I said, at Adelaide it was growth. It's really interesting when I was working in Department of Planning, Transport and Infrastructure was getting people onto public transport. Now, what is it? So if you get honing on that, the rest of it becomes a little bit simpler, I think. So it's not about me anymore. It's not about you anymore. It's about here's our goal. Are we all attached to the goal? Yep. Okay, let's go. Guy Newman: I remember you told me a story when you were at Planning, Transport and Infrastructure that You put things into the bus to measure the frequency of brake touches or something along those lines to then measure the level of the customer's experience in a bus that's either not having the brake applied a lot. You know those drivers that tend to touch the brake. I found that fascinating that you're looking at data that is just simply, it was a way of thinking that I wouldn't have come up with. Peter Auhl: But that was the process, guys. So if you're looking at patronage, like getting people on buses, what are the influencing factors of patronage? Michelle Huntington: Yeah, if they're experiencing a bad ride, they're not going to continue to do it. Peter Auhl: No. So we broke that down. It was quality, you know, accessibility, you know, all these different, and then we did sub-elements, and then we looked at the data sets around that. So once you focus on those, you focused on that, People can't see my hands moving here. Focus on that and you're going to shift the dial. Guy Newman: So when's this book coming out, Peter? I think you've got a lot to offer with regards to your processes and your thinking style. The Frankenstein Leadership. There's a few books here. I might just throw one last question at you, Peter. What are you most excited about in the future? Peter Auhl: I'm most excited about being back in a leadership role. I'm really excited to be back being a leader again. I think it's something that I've desperately missed and I love and I judge myself on the splatterings of people that I've been able to lead over my career that have been successful and I think that's You know, putting all, you know, the innovations aside, that's the thing that actually gets me up in the morning. I really love working with people genuinely. I love seeing them succeed. I love watching them grow. You know, my best, best stories are people like Emma, you know, people like that. that I've had the pleasure of participating. When I get a LinkedIn message from someone saying, you know, I've been looking at servant leadership styles and it's you, you know, Peter, that, you know, was, you know, sort of triggered that thought. So yeah, it's, I can't wait to get back into the saddle and, you know, hopefully help some people in, you know, not just the organisation, but in themselves as well. Guy Newman: Well Peter, if I can leave you with this, I've known you for quite some time, I've watched you throughout your career, we met a long time ago and I don't, not only consider you a friend, but I consider you a leader worth emulating. I've learned a lot from you, but I've also had the fortune of speaking to a lot of the people that you've led over the years and the way they speak about you behind your back just is a testament to the style of leadership that you have. So thank you for today, thank you for sharing your wisdom. We could have spoken for five hours. based on the amount of knowledge that I know you have. Maybe we can do podcast number two at some stage in the future. Peter Auhl: Yeah, I'll be happy to. There's a lot more in this. Yeah. And there's a deeper dive for sure. Yeah. Yeah, I'd be really interested to actually, even for myself, you know, being questioned like this is good because it allows me to think. So it's good. So thank you. We really appreciate it. Thanks, Guy. Guy Newman: Thanks, Peter. Thanks, Pete. Cheers, mate. That was fun. He's such a clown. Michelle Huntington: Lady captain. Guy Newman: And who's gonna listen to this? Maybe our mums. Michelle Huntington: Thanks mum.