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G'day leaders. In this episode we had the privilege of sitting down with Susan Warder.

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Susan is a partner at the law firm Mills Oakley. She's a family lawyer who's been in the business

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for 30 years now and in 2013 was named Woman Lawyer of the Year in private practice by the

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Women Lawyers Association of New South Wales. We got to chat to her about all of the lessons she's

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learned on her journey about being a family lawyer but also as a leader. Enjoy. Why did it count

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backwards? Are they? We're now recording. What? Hello Captain. What do I say?

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Come fly with me, let's fly, let's fly. What are we going to talk about? I don't know.

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So leadership, life and everything else. Yeah.

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And we're live. No we're recording. Sorry Susan we do this all the time it's a bit of a bug bit.

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And our neighbour who's our biggest fan he says you've got to keep doing it because it

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annoys Michelle so I'm not going to stop. Probably not a good thing to do in front of a family lawyer.

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No. Not taken. And welcome Susan Warder. Thank you for having me. So you're as you said a family

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lawyer and I've known you for just on 10 years now. Might even be a bit longer because I think we

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met before I moved my practice to Mills Oakley. Yes it was. And we've hit 10 years last month

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at Mills Oakley. Wow okay time flies. So a bit longer than that and time does fly yes. Yeah so

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the reason why we asked you to be on our podcast is our podcast is about life and leadership

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and exemplary leadership and I thought of you and I've spoken to Guy and told him so much about you

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just I've watched you over the time that I've known you not only yourself in your leadership style

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but how you have encouraged and mentored and brought up with you other lawyers in within your

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companies that you've been at the businesses you've been at and it just it got goosebumps it just

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it's a it's a great you're a great example of a leader who doesn't just you know fight to get to

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the top but brings people with you and so I love your style. Thank you Michelle. You're welcome.

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So what I want to know is your background have you always been interested in law?

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I have I think from the time I was certainly in high school and being part of the debating team and

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studying legal studies and being part of the mock trial and watching television shows that were

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always courtroom dramas. What's your favorite? Well back then it was probably things that aren't

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on anymore but I certainly was an Ali McBeal fan for a long time I watched LA Law and then probably

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a decade ago when The Good Wife was on I certainly enjoyed watching Alicia Florrick and her life in

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The Good Wife but yes always wanted to do law didn't really know what area of law but that

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decision was kind of made for me because in my first the first firm I went to work in in 1993

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the two partners had a very mixed practice a varied practice but neither of them were really

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interested in family law that was the emotional stuff that they didn't want to get involved in

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and so there I was at 23 as a very junior lawyer not knowing anything about practice let alone a

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lot of experience about relationships being given the family law work that came in the door and for

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the first few years I did everything that the partners didn't want to do so it was a variety of

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work small matters being sent to different courts in and around Sydney and then about the third year

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probably about 1995 1996 that became my area and whenever calls came in to them about that work it

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was always allocated to me and I developed a family law practice and I really enjoyed it and

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I have to say having hit 30 years of admission in June last year I still enjoy it as much as I

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did then I've seen a lot of changes within the law but within society and the observations I've made

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have been really interesting to see who I'm working with now compared to who I was seeing

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day in day out 20 years ago and 30 years ago and how gray divorces for example of we're just not

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there when when I was a younger lawyer in the 90s and we're now seeing people divorcing later

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I'd say probably when I hit 20 years admission so maybe 10 years ago a lot more internet

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relationships started dating apps that led to people having relationships and then those

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relationships breaking down Facebook when when Facebook became a big thing at some stage during

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my career we saw people reconnecting with old school friends perhaps through social media

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deciding that they wanted to rekindle those old relationships that led to marriage breakdown or

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marrying someone who lived in another country and the complications that go with relocating children

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I've never thought about it like that that your industry has evolved and changed it certainly has

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yes yes technology had an impact and the and I'd say what's happened in the last decade with the

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in the last decade with the the gray divorce and and having more clients in their 70s and 80s than

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we've ever seen before going through family or proceedings is generally because people are living

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longer there's more money in certainly if you practice in Sydney everyone made a gain over the

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years through their home values increasing so I think there's been a number of contributing factors

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to why we see people separating at a later age that we probably wouldn't have considered or

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people wouldn't have considered 30 years ago I wouldn't have thought about there there is one

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in particular that comes to mind that's in the media a lot that's a gray person an older person

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and he has had a number of wives which are publicly and you don't apart from celebrities

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not that he's really a celebrity but he's in the in the news yeah I wouldn't have considered that

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older people were getting divorced yes yeah I often refer to them to my lawyers as as the true

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believers in love and they keep coming back you know I'm acting I was acting for a lady

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up until a few months ago and her matter resolved and it's the third time I've acted for her I've

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acted for it each in each decade of my career yes and I said to her when when you meet

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husband number four I think we need to go through a vetting exercise and maybe a prenup

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that's because you know paperwork in order yes yes beforehand and you don't think of family lawyers

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as having repeat work as such because people generally used to have one one marriage breakdown

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but the longer you've been practicing the more likelihood there is of you being able to see that

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client again and work with them again and it might not be for another marital breakdown it might in

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fact be for a financial agreement if they've decided to to enter the next relationship with

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a prenup or similar yeah so you you targeted law you always wanted to be a lawyer but you seem to

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have fallen into family law I think like a lot of young lawyers because I know when we meet young

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lawyers who start with us here at the firm they're unsure as to which area of law they think they'll

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be interested in I knew very quickly that I'd be interested in an area where I was working with

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people rather than drafting documents you know I didn't ever imagine I would enjoy being a lawyer

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sitting in an office drafting contracts and leases and and documents of that nature and

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and would probably find myself in an area where I actually had more client contact

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and enjoy that interaction and and an opportunity which family law gives you

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to also do some advocacy work whereas depending on the area of law you've chosen you you may not need

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to really have a lot of conversations with clients if you're engaged to draft documents you might have

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some initial meetings but are very different to to what we do and the high touch points that our

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clients have and need you took on family law because the other two the two gentlemen that you

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worked for initially didn't want to touch it some of us are probably very much in the same

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and managing with those things and I have male colleagues who are equally good at managing family

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law matters you know who are brilliant lawyers as well as having if I call the softer skills to

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manage clients but I think the partners I was working for when I started in 1993 were was a

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different era family law was practiced quite differently to what it's become as well yeah there

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was a lot less collaboration that movie the war of the roses was probably more reflective of that

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time and whilst you still have acrimonious and bitter separations now the rules of the court

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the education lawyers are provided with at ongoing conferences and the expectations the court has and

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clients it's to try and collaborate wherever possible to to minimize issues and to progress

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matters differently and that's really change it's very different now even the terminology when I

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started it was custody children lived with you you had custody of those children yeah or you had

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access to the children if you were the parent who visited them and that language was changed so the

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government changed the legislation amendments have come through a few times in in the times I in the

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three decades I've practiced and so practicing in the law and in the law and in the law and in the

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and so practicing in family law has changed it certainly is my observation and I think this is

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fairly accurate and representative of what's happening in the profession that more female

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lawyers are drawn to family law yeah if I looked at newly admitted solicitors who elect to going to

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family law or if I was at a family law function or conference there would be a lot more females

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in in recent years that seem to be drawn to family law I follow you on LinkedIn and I see a lot of

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posts where you are there with a lot of female lawyers and and yeah and I look at my team and

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there are 13 lawyers I'm one of 13 and they are all female and that's not because we advertise

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looking for a female practitioner but there are very few male practitioners in family law in in

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recent years why do you think that is I'm not sure I I really don't know if it's because

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females are more drawn to that emotional element of it yeah but if you looked around at sort of

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leading family law specialist law firms there would be a lot more female lawyers certainly under 40

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okay there's still some very senior male practitioners who've been practicing for a long

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time but in recent years I think it's really swung the other way to to a lot more females

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well there's a lot more females in the profession so that in itself would contribute and I think

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with a number of the universities that offer law there are more women enrolling than men as well

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so yeah being a partner in the firm you are in a leadership position and we talk about leaders as

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being somebody that you're inspired to follow or emulate what would you say are the main

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characteristics of a great leader look I I think that too has changed because as a young lawyer

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when I started practicing you really wanted to be a partner one day you wanted to to increase your

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and improve your technical expertise so that you you could answer all of your clients questions

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and had really good grip on the law and you wanted to you aspired to progressing your career so that

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you could ultimately become a partner I don't know that as many young lawyers these days want

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to do that I think a lot of them look at partners and think I don't want to work those hours yeah

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and I don't want to have to work that hard to to try and become a partner so I think that's change

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and that's a shift that most of us who've been practicing for a long time have observed and

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the but going back to your question in what do I think

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I'd like people to in my team to observe and be inspired by I think it's about the way you respect

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your clients and trying to do really good quality work for your clients trying to keep your word if

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you if you're giving your word about this is going to be done at this time on this day then

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then following through with that and having them understand how as lawyers we trade on our word

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and that that's a really important thing and our ethical obligations not just to clients but to the

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court if you are in court which a lot of young lawyers may not have the benefit of knowing about

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because we've got this generation of lawyers who were admitted and then covered here so for two

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years they didn't get to go to court it's all a Microsoft teams and I was at a seminar on Saturday

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to help lawyers understand about ethics and how to present if you are online and the fact it is

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still like being in open court and so there's different things that we need them to to hopefully

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watch and learn now and then and then separately to that is I hope they get inspired by the

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outcomes you achieve and the difference you make to someone's life to their family and the help

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you've given them so if someone is you know sending you a thank you and you share that with them and

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you speak to them about this is why what we do is so powerful because it stays with people for a

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long time and and a lot of young lawyers really want to be part of that and in helping their

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client be able to navigate and and get out of the situation they're in because I mean let's face it

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if you're a family lawyer you're not seeing people at a happy time in their life yeah so giving them

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a sense of purpose yes yes and then they feel like they've been a really integral part of this

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family being able to move forward and and do those things and then also just the importance of

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the conversations we have being approachable being able to workshop any questions they have

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and to be able to have that within your your team because we we do have the advantage of being a

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large team so there's always someone else who will be able to answer the question I make a real point

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we have a meeting on a Thursday of asking other lawyers around the table in my team what they

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think should be in a matter because they're all then contributing and I often say to them

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I want to work with people who know more than I do about so the family law covers a lot of areas

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and we also have some lawyers who are really interested in parenting matters others in complex

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financial matters and or internet international matters so workshopping sharing that and everyone

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feels like they've really contributed to maybe the

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more senior solicitor's case and giving them some guidance or tips or bringing to their attention

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something they should know so is that a formal CLE so continuing to legal education so we have

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every Thursday at one o'clock all the lawyers in our team meet together down here on on this floor

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we in a room like this a bigger room than this and we go through our weekly lawyers meeting and talk

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about what matters people have had where they might need some assistance or one of our lawyers

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have had where they might need some assistance or one of us might say our client came in and

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they've got x y and z has anyone been in a matter where this has happened and there might be different

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valuation issues or whatever it is and and people share that experience together each week are there

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still things that come in that you've never seen occasionally yes yeah you know every separately to

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things i may not have seen that require a legal resolution and legal advice that doesn't happen

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as often but as far as stories and facts just when i think i've heard it all six months later someone

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shocks me again but it's good because you can go home and say thank goodness i have a really boring

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life and you're a voyeur listening to to other things that that people have done in their lives

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so without details can you tell us anything that's shocked you in your career or something that's

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really funny i think one of the things that really strikes me the most is when people have two family

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law matters going on at the same time so with a spouse and with someone else they were seeing

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that the spouse may not have known about but now has to know about so they've got two properties

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settlements and it gets quite complicated because you have to deal with the spouse first and their

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entitlements and then whatever the person has left to go goes into the pool for the for the next

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property settlement so i always think that's um you know keeps people very busy yes clearly if

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they're running uh two relationships and sometimes in different states or uh with complex arrangements

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yes and then trying to to unravel that and it's inevitable then that everyone finds out about

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the other person that um that's been involved so we know a story about a particular pilot who had

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i think seven around the country at the same time so they were keeping the international family

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lawyers busy with different jurisdictions of life yeah

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yeah i i see that you uh mentor your teams and i i have seen a couple of uh female lawyers that

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that you have brought up through the ranks who inspired you who did you wish to emulate or gave

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you tips that you thought yeah we'll take those on board yeah look for the first seven years of

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my practice i was in a very small firm and we didn't actually have anyone who provided any

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mentoring formally or informally but at the end of that seven years i had a case against a very

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experienced lawyer uh who i really respected and she had a position available she was in a in a

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large firm and i wasn't able to commit to a full-time position because i had very young

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children but she was willing to take me on three days a week and she was inspirational she was

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generous with her time in teaching and training and letting me sit in on on appointments uh she

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wanted me to succeed i i always knew that when i was applying for example to be an accredited

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specialist in family law she had my back yeah and the other interesting thing about our dynamic was

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she didn't have children right yet always understood if there was a bit of a crisis

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for me because i did have young children and she knew i'd get my work done even if i had to rush

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off some medical emergency or something to do with one of the kids and so she was a great role model

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and to have her calm approach because she was always very calm and she used to say she didn't

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feel calm but she presented very calmly to all of us who worked with her so she was very influential

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in my career yeah and then interestingly the ceo who was appointed for our firm when i was at colman

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greg and i'd been there for 12 years the partners were very brave and decided that look they're

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lawyers but not managers and they should step back from managing the firm and appoint a ceo

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and they appointed a ceo who was not a lawyer but an accountant and he took us all out of our comfort

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zone and it was really unsettling with the changes that he implemented but he became the person that

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was my greatest supporter and the best mentor i could have had wow by really pushing me outside

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of my comfort zone but also guiding me lovingly and in a caring way so it was interesting because

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i had a male and a female yeah and he was the person who i credit for being responsible in

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me being able to progress with my team and then when i left colman greg and started at mils oakley

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the three lawyers who i'd worked with came with me and they're here and we've had a really good time

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working with each other yeah for the last 14 years and we've added other other lawyers who

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uh since come and gone in in that time that we've been here but yes so i would say one was a lawyer

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a partner a female family law partner and the other was the male non non-lawyer yeah but i would

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think both of them really made a very big difference to me progressing in the law the way i did

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yeah and i i also was fortunate i guess which isn't the story that many females

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uh in leadership positions have but when i went in as a partner at colman greg i was in business

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with seven really decent men yeah who valued my work my contribution and whilst they'd had very

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different lives to me because they were much older they all had uh wives who were at home

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yeah and weren't having to manage young families and you know they were at a very different stage

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of their life uh they really let me come on board and work in a way where they recognized how valuable

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my work was for the firm but to do it in a way that some of my female colleagues have not always had

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and women in other corporate environments that i read about or i know so i have had that good

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fortune of working with uh really good men to that have contributed yeah and it hasn't just been

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females that's fantastic so actually being appreciated for what you bring to the business

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and your professional knowledge and now and like how you handle yourself yes it's very different

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to a story that michelle told me once about a captain that she used to fly with who used to

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help hover his hand over her hand on the control panel because of a lack of trust yes

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it's it's great to hear that you've worked with with two leaders one who was a technical expert

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in the in the law and one who wasn't necessarily a technical expert but showed that leadership

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could you list some of the character traits of both of those mentors i think generosity with

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their time yeah and being really available to me when when they were with me and also thinking

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about how they could assist me when they weren't with me so that they would send me an article

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or have a chat with me about someone they'd met and making those introductions and

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connecting me with people that they thought i would benefit from either learning from or working with

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or who would expand my own skills and skill expansion actually was was something that

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our ceo did undertake with those of us who were identified as people who wanted to embrace the

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changes that he wanted to roll out which were quite unconventional for a really old well

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established law firm firstly to appoint a ceo that was a non-lawyer and then give them a stake in the

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practice so equity in the practice and so that was telling of the partners that i was in business

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with and how progressive they were at that time because i became a partner in 1997 and sorry in

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2007 but he was appointed as ceo a few years before that and he identified those people who were

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willing to embrace this change and the new direction the firm was going to to go in which

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was a very brave move and then saying well you should be able to go and learn how to do this

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and do that and acquire different skills it's not just about having the technical expertise that's

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a given after a while in the law you know you get good at it like any job you've been doing it for

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a long time but it's all of these other skills that you need as part of your skill set and i

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don't know that as a lawyer if i would have actually thought about doing that i would have

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just been working in the business and not on the business and then progressing in that way and then

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also the work that was done in making us a bit more aware of the impact we have on others working

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with us yeah and the younger lawyers or our support staff who work within our teams and

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trying to engage with them and inspire them so that they could see what you're doing hear what

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you're saying and think okay well i'd really like to aim to do that or follow that pathway

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so it was that awareness that the mentors gave me of these things that i probably wouldn't have

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thought about because you're so focused on your work and getting your work done complex

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career that you've chosen yes and it's very consuming so you need to have some time to

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step back and think about these things but i even remember when the sydney olympics were on

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and for a couple of months it was very quiet in the office and the partner i worked for saying

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to me enjoy the lull this doesn't last whereas as a young lawyer i was getting really nervous

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oh we're not very busy at the moment and now i long for those but i just remember the calm approach

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with which amanda said enjoy the lull this is a good time to to catch up on your admin and do

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this and do that and it was just experience maturity having seen it all before and how it how it

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unfolded i really like what you said about not just working in the business but on the business

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yes a lot of leaders or people in business don't think about that their their role is lawyer and

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so you come to work you do your job and then you go rather than maybe being partner you have more

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equity in the position but working on your business not a lot of people think of that yeah and that's

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that's one of the things that i think i was able to get from having the benefit of that mentorship

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and and it came at a time in my career where i probably really benefited from it yeah because

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i i wasn't too junior but i wasn't setting my ways enough for it not to make a difference

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and i was very open to trying to to embrace it and and could see that he had a lot to offer the

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firm and and what he was going to do for us yeah have you developed any routines throughout your

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career so that when you do come to work you're bringing your best self so we often talk about

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routines to make sure that when you're turning up anywhere you've done everything that you can

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to turn up the best version of you possible yeah look i think i've become very aware of the

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importance in the work i do of being my best self regardless of what's going on in my own life yeah

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and i remember having young babies and dropping them off and driving to work and being very stressed

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because someone was crying when i left and getting in the car and thinking this is this is going to

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be really hard the guilt yes and stepping into the office thinking oh you know i hope they've

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stopped crying but then realizing that what those people around me needed people who worked with me

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was me coming in being as upbeat as i possibly could be and ready to focus on what i was doing

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in there and and compartmentalizing that and leaving it to one side so having come to that

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realization regardless of what's gone on in my life i have tried really hard 99 percent of the time

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to do just that getting to work and i am in the zone yeah and i'm completely focused to such an

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extent that if my mother says to me oh tomorrow can you ring and do this i'll say mum one time

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at work i will never remember to do that can you please message me and she couldn't understand

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initially about why why wouldn't you be able to make that phone call when you get to work tomorrow

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when this shop opens or when the doctor opens it but it was because when i get here i'm consumed

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by what i do with the work i do and i do a lot of face-to-face work with team members and clients

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and then when i get in the car and go home i can think about the other challenges that are still

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there yes and and what i have to deal with yeah i think similar i would when i went into the the

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blue emu car park at the airport that was my i was no longer mum yes i was a pilot and that's you know

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my normal life admin stopped until i went drove back out of the blue emu so yeah that was yeah

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which is good to hear when you're flying a plane that's right they're focused yes

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yes being able to compartmentalize yes definitely and it's not easy and and i see it in a lot of

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people i work with you know when they bring that to work and that too has changed in my observation

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once upon a time not many people brought those issues if they had any issues personal issues

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at home to work whereas now when you are managing people you have to be prepared whilst you're

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expected to to be on and together and composed and in the moment that your people might have

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issues that are preventing them from being able to completely be committed to what they're doing

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and if they're comfortable in sharing that with you how you accommodate and deal with that as well

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because it's changed the the workplace has changed and and what people are willing to to discuss with

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you and you almost have to be a bit of a psychologist yourself yeah if you are in a position where you

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have other people that work with you that where you're you know in a leadership role so they spend

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so much of their lives with you we spend a lot of time at work having that support structure is

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is very important for people these days yes and and sometimes it's important to for i i think

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for your staff to know when things might not be right for you because it makes them feel more

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comfortable yeah and i say this from my own personal experience when i had a crisis in my life

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in 2011 it was remarkable how many people that i knew in our office on different floors

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were able to then come and speak to me about what had happened in their life

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because i think they thought absolutely that that vulnerability made them feel comfortable

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or susan will understand she's been through it and then they'd share some stories with me of what

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they'd endured which was a real privilege that someone would come in and say do you have a minute

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and you know i just wanted to say sorry about this and this is what and then share their story

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yeah and it was an incredible time it happened for so long and i even remember presenting at events

305
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oh emceeing events and we ran a women in business forum when i was at colman greek

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colman greek and at the end of the event someone who'd heard of what i may have gone through at

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that time waiting till the end of the event to come and speak to me and share with me

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there and they were just a member of the audience not someone that necessarily knew me

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yeah or had any close connection with me but so it's a balance isn't it um you want people to still

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feel comfortable because no one's life is composed and together all the time it just doesn't happen

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but if you look composed and like your life is all together then people probably feel less

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comfortable and i sometimes as i get to know clients share things with them that helps them

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feel better about the fact that things do work out and this will all find a level and it will

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all be okay again we're big believers in storytelling and using situations from your own life or someone

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else's life where you can tell them what happened and you don't even need to tell people look so you

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too could it's people put it together themselves don't they they put themselves in that story

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something similar and like ah okay yep and they come to the conclusion well it it will work out

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or it you know there's there's light at the end of the tunnel so yes yes we talk about how it's a

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it's a big contributor to psychological safety in the team culture as well where if you feel like

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you can approach your leader which you've obviously just described then people feel safer and when you

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feel safer you can stop fearing and when you stop fearing you're going to be performing better as

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well yes and and as you as a leader get older you endure more yourself because that's just what

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happens in life so you have those stories to share when someone wants to come and speak to you about

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what's going on in their life or with a relative who might be ill or whatever it is they're

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they're enduring you can give them some guidance based often on having gone through something

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yourself too by by that stage of your life yeah now you you really are in the the business of

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changing people's lives family's lives and guy has mentioned a couple of times in our podcast that

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about um disney and it's disneyland so they're not in you know the market of so a cleaner for

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example is not there to clean the park what is it they're there to make magic happen and then

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and then clean the park and i was in disneyland with my adult children last month oh well uh

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because i do think it is a magical place and i love and that is exactly how you are left to feel

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everybody seems to love what they do regardless of what they're doing so the model must i didn't

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know what it was everyone to a higher purpose so they don't go to work thinking i'm a cleaner or

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i dress up as goofy they're going to make magic happen and by the way you dress up as goofy by

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the way you're a cleaner yeah and so that goes back to what you were saying before about giving

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your team a sense of purpose and showing them how they're contributing to your clients lives

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and that's why i make a point of always sharing the emails or cards that clients send

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and often more than two one or two people have worked on that client's file so they've all

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contributed in their own way in helping that client resolve their issues whatever they are

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financial parenting or now i'm getting a picture as to why i heard so many great things about you

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before coming to this podcast now your time has been very valuable thank you so much for sharing

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my absolutely pleasure and i feel very privileged on being invited to to be on your podcast i've

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heard so many fantastic things about you but i'm going to put you on the spot is there any life

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advice you could give anyone who might be thinking about moving into the legal profession

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oh gosh that's a tough one it is a tough one because it's such a broad industry can i say

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this the legal profession continues i think to operate to a large extent the same way it did

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many years ago and that is it is hard work it and and i think you really need to be committed

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because there are so many other professions available now that weren't they didn't exist

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when i was becoming a lawyer but so i think people need to really be prepared to commit to

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long hours lots of reading and sure there are practices that have developed in recent years

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where people are trying to do it a bit differently to still be able to manage the work-life balance

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but that also very much depends on the area of law you're in and if you're moving into an area

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like mine or any area that has that lends itself to litigation where your time is not really able

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to be controlled by you because timelines and dates are set upon you by a court or a tribunal

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depending on what area of law you're in you you have to go in understanding all of that

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so it's very rewarding and if you enjoy working with with people but still not one of the jobs

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i would be suggesting or career paths if you're someone who wants to do it differently and and a

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lot of younger people now do want to do things differently so i don't know who the partners of

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large law firms will be in 20 and 30 years time yeah but maybe it will just be a very different

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way of operating possibly interesting times ahead

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thank you so much for your time thank you really appreciate it thanks for having me thanks a lot

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well that was fun that was fun you're such a clown lady captain

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and who's gonna listen to this maybe i'm not thanks mom