G'day leaders, on today's episode of Captain and the Clown we get to speak with a truly
amazing man.
And legend.
Olympian Daniel Kowalski.
Yes, I've loved this podcast.
I've been a friend and a fan of Daniel since his swimming career in the mid to late 90s.
What an amazing athlete and what an amazing human being.
I remember staying up watching telly, just the Olympics it was so exciting and watching
the swimming, especially the men's swimming, they were inspirational and Daniel knowing
I suppose from the, what we saw on the television and meeting the man in person and just what
he had to say is just, I've got goosebumps, truly inspirational.
Enjoy.
Why did it count backwards?
Are they, we're now recording.
What?
Hello Captain.
Oh what do I?
Come fly with me, let's fly, let's fly away.
What are we going to talk about?
I don't know.
So leadership.
Life and everything else.
Yeah.
And we're live.
No we're recording.
I do that every time Daniel, I'm so sorry.
It doesn't get old.
No it does.
It does.
But we've had feedback from a few of our listeners that do it every time because it annoys
Michelle.
Yeah.
Yeah so we're live but we're not recording every time.
We're excited.
So we've got a very special guest today.
I've known Daniel for some time.
But yeah, Michelle, Daniel Kowalski.
I know.
I've only ever knew you from the telly.
When it was black and white.
No, not that long ago.
That makes me old as well too Daniel.
I'm actually older than you I think.
30 plus years I guess we've known each other.
We have, yeah.
It's been quite a while.
Yeah.
And one of the best swimmers Australia's ever produced.
Thank you.
Yeah.
That's very kind of you.
Well Michelle said, fill me in about how you know Daniel.
I said we both competed at the same time.
And Daniel, so you had a, you won Olympic medals in 1500, 400 and 200 at the same Olympics.
Correct.
And you were the first person to do that since 1904.
Yes.
Yeah it was in 92 years.
Yeah so that was in Atlanta wasn't it?
That's right, 96.
Yeah.
And then I think gold medal in 2000.
I swam in the heat of the relay of the 4x200 freestyle relay.
So it's always an interesting one because obviously I was a part of a team that won
a gold medal but do I necessarily think I'm a gold medalist?
It's always a contentious topic within my brain.
Oh okay.
Okay.
Well I always see you as a gold medalist from 2000 because it does take a team to win a
medal in a relay.
Yeah well as you would know coming from a team sport it really does take all those pieces
but it was always a little bit not hollow but because those games were in Sydney and
the crowd was electric and so not being able to stand on the podium and hear the national
anthem it just didn't have the same sort of impact I think what winning a gold medal would
if you had experienced those two things.
At the World Champs, 4x200 Olympic, not Olympic, so World Champs world record in 90...
97 was it?
No, no, no, go back again.
No it wasn't 96.
98.
Was it 94 or 98?
98 and it wasn't a world record.
If I had not done a 0.61 change over we probably would have broken a world record.
0.61?
Wasn't that the swim that put you guys into the top ranking, the world number one ranking?
We broke the world record of Commonwealth Games.
Commonwealth Games that's the one I'm thinking about.
No because I remember that because that put Australian swimming into the number one ranking
first time since 56.
Yes, yeah, yeah so a long time coming.
You can tell I was a big fan back then even though we were both competing at the same
time.
Well we swim but we don't swim as fast as you guys and yeah no that was, I saw that
as a golden era especially on the male side of swimming.
You guys with the 4x2 and all of the 1500s that you were in and anyway big fan.
Everyone was talking about the swimming, Australian swimming and you just expected, no pressure,
but expected medals.
Like it was, and there was such hype and coverage and everywhere Australian flags and the boxing
kangaroo and it was, yeah it was inspiring.
People were happy.
Yeah, I think one of the many benefits of being a part of that generation when there
was only four channels to pick from and not as many choices for sports to play and to
watch so and just the talent on that team was second to none but Guy your point's interesting.
It's very rare when the men and women are both firing.
At the same time.
And I think that's fair across a number of sports.
Absolutely, in water polo as well.
The girls went up and won the gold medal in 2000 and then the men did well and then the
girls do well.
It never seems to happen at the same time.
It's an interesting study for someone to take up.
But your era put swimming on the map in my opinion.
You became household names.
I've mentioned to many friends before today that we were interviewing Daniel Kowalski
and they go, you're kidding.
That's so bizarre to me.
I think of swimming as your era and Dawn Fraser.
They're the two that I think are straight and for me, you know, the time blurs and I
just think yeah, it went from Dawn Fraser straight to you guys.
Not that time in between.
And I guess that's amazing to hear but the sad thing is that the swimming team in particular
in Tokyo was incredible.
The world championships last year incredible and I think it gets back to that point.
We have so much available to us.
It's 24-7 and there's so many different platforms that it's hard to get through that cluttered
market.
Yeah, but you guys gave them a good stepping stone to swimming being a career that's going
to then launch you into other areas, other careers.
There's been quite a few swimmers from that area who have gone on to different things
because of their fame I guess.
Yeah, fame and work ethic and all those attributes I think being an elite athlete provides you
and instills in you.
So yeah, you know, look at Kieran Perkins who's basically the head of sport in this
country as the CEO of the sports commission.
So yeah, it's great to see a number of teammates who have gone on to do great things both out
of the pool and in their personal careers.
And yourself as well.
You're titled with the Australian...
So what's your official title?
Australian Olympians Association?
No, I'm head of Olympian Services at the Australian Olympic Committee.
So the role is multifaceted, don't let the title fool you, but it's primarily about the
alumni engagement.
There's Guy and I are one of 4,315 Olympians to have ever competed for Australia.
What's the number again?
315.
Cool, I feel quite rare now.
Yes, you are.
You are.
So there's a, you know, we're trying to grow this alumni and this connection piece.
There's a wellbeing piece and come Paris, I'll be a part of the team that sort of oversees
the athlete experience in the main village within Paris.
So it's a multifaceted role working across both summer, winter and all the sports and
being a sports junkie and I just feel very privileged to have the opportunity to work
in that role.
Well you earned it.
Thank you.
And your position, especially over there, I met Katrina Webb last year and from Paralympian,
she is Paralympian, I can't speak, Paralympian and she was saying that after the Games, you
know, your mental health really takes quite a beating and having the support systems weren't
available back then.
And did you find that as well when you were competing and then we find when we've been
speaking or you're preparing for something and you give a talk, give a workshop, etc.
that you've been working on for a long time, after that adrenaline you get kind of the
blues almost.
Did you find that experience with yourself?
Really, yes I did.
Like massively, I didn't really realise the enormity of it until I had sort of stood back
and reflected on how hard I was on myself post at least the 96 Olympics because for
me it was a gold medal or bust kind of situation and I didn't achieve that.
So for me this fear of I'd failed and let so many people down, it was a good 18 months
of just going to bed every night and crying situation.
So I did experience that but I didn't realise the enormity of it until a few years afterwards.
Because with your particular event, the 1500, you punish yourself more than anyone else
in the pool.
Yes we do, thank you.
In my personal opinion.
My daughter's doing squads and we were telling her about your swimming career and what you
competed in and she's like, wow, when we do our hour swimming for squads, it's exhausting
your line and you're fast for 1500.
If you ask somebody who swims a 400 medley, which is arguably probably the toughest swimming
pool event or 200 butterfly, everyone, their event is the hardest but us distance swimmers
would like to think about.
No 1500 metres has to be the pinnacle of the swim.
From my opinion anyway.
I was a water polo goalkeeper so I only had to swim about 2 metres.
I have to ask, so with those sort of distances, the training would have been absolutely punishing.
How did you motivate yourself when you were back then training?
Training was my favourite part.
If they handed out gold medals for training, I'd probably have a good trophy cabinet full
of them.
I loved the challenge that the coach would put up on the board and the specific goals
that I had set for myself on that particular day to ensure that I could make the most out
of that training session.
So I loved training, it was easy.
The only times that it was difficult was I had a number of shoulder problems so I quite
often would have to kick, purely kick 60 kilometres a week.
And so that was when it was the most difficult when I was injured but otherwise I absolutely
loved training.
It was nothing better to me.
I've heard other swimmers have similar mindsets.
So Hackett used to turn up and almost want to push himself harder than what was on the
board from the coach.
Yeah I had the great privilege of training with Grant for a number of years.
Before when he was like 14, 13, 14 he would get put in my lane on the Gold Coast at Miami
Swim Club and when he was in trouble and I would lap him.
And fast forward about five years later when I went back to Miami and he was lapping me.
But he was an incredible, incredible trainer.
So poster sport, you said it took a what, so 96 but you kept on going after that.
Poster sport, how did you land back on earth?
Yeah so I feel very fortunate in that I had been, I was consciously aware that the next
part of my career was going to be the same as my swimming career.
I'm going to have to start at the bottom and work myself up to wherever it is I wanted
to go.
I didn't exactly know where I wanted to go but I knew that it wasn't all going to be
handed to me on a platter.
And I'd seen a few people kind of not nail what a great transition from elite sport could
look like.
So I literally in my last year of uni I was like I don't have any real life experience
here so I emailed a few of the sporting organisations in Queensland.
I was on the Gold Coast with my family and I ended up landing a job, an internship with
the Brisbane Lions in their marketing department.
And it gave me six weeks experience.
I remember vividly on the first day I jammed the printer and I did not know how to fix
it and I was beside myself.
I don't think you're the only person who's ever jammed a printer.
But I thought the whole organisation is going to stop because I didn't know how to work
the printer or fix the paper jam.
I fixed it and it was a huge like wake up call to think okay this is literally like
starting again but it was fun.
So did you do marketing at uni or what did you do?
I did a health science degree at Bond University which was basically a sports management degree
and then I did a counselling undergrad as well.
So for me I always wanted to work in sport so it was great to have that opportunity even
as a Hawthorn fan to go and...
I'm so sorry man.
No he's calling with.
There's so many things I can say now.
Say them, say them.
This is an open podcast you can say whatever you want.
Beautiful set of teeth.
Yeah exactly I have them.
No I'm missing one.
That's how I got in the club.
I got one missing also.
I was going to say my first job at the Australian Sports Commission I was on the help desk and
I used to unjam printers all day almost for a living whilst I was training them.
Was that in that library part or was that in...
No so we were over in the sports science building.
We were upstairs in the sports science building and I was the help desk.
I wandered around with a phone helping people back before Windows.
Yeah.
Yeah I know.
Commodore 64, go and replace the cassettes.
I used to support Lotus 123 for DOS.
I don't know if you remember that Daniel.
It's a long time ago.
By name I do.
Yeah but yeah over in the library in the sports commission I used to go and help people with
their printers and stuff.
Yeah I know.
Yeah there we go.
So we've both got a history of jamming printers or I unjam printers and you jam them.
Only once.
Yeah no you only need to do it once.
So what did you learn from swimming?
So you said that you thought you were starting from the ground up after swimming.
I'd actually suggest that you probably came out from your sport with more skills that
you weren't aware of that people often see Olympians and people who have achieved what
you have achieved and when they move into the business arena that the dedication, the
passion, the getting up again after failure, they're the life skills that are so important
in business.
That's me suggesting some but what other skills do you think you came out of swimming with
now that you can look back on it?
I think the ability to prioritise and understand what is important and need to do now and what
can sort of sit back and wait.
The controlling the controllables.
Yeah.
You're in that office environment and you know there's things that you obviously can
have an impact on and there's others that you just you can't and you can't control anything
and so save the frustration and control the controllables and then just basic time management
you know just understanding a deadline is a deadline for a reason.
A meeting starts at 9 and that means be there at 8.55 kind of mentality.
So there are a lot like you said there's a lot of traits and characteristics that you
bring being an elite at what it is that you do but I think it's that doubt, the lack of
confidence because I hadn't experienced you know going to a staff meeting and taking minutes
and things like that you know what you do when you're starting out and it's like oh
I can't do it so the negativity creeps in but you're right you don't fully appreciate
what you have learnt in our case swimming up and down a black line and how that is transferable
to what you do on a day to day basis.
So your, the swimming that you did was singular so it was just you, you were in a team though
and in the relay it was a team but you trained as if for your own PB basically.
Exactly.
In but because it was a team and there are politics always when other humans are together
etc has that helped you managing that team and being in a team then in your work life?
It's interesting we talked at the start about the dynamic and the success of the team, the
swimming team in the late 90s and 2000s in Australia and a lot of that was because the
personalities on that team realised that until you got on the blocks you were genuine teammates
and you would support one another.
So I was a part of an environment that success, red success and so I was able to take that
to the other parts of my life and realise that if I was going to be successful then
I needed to work very closely and understand what my peers and fellow colleagues were doing
around me in order to improve myself on a day to day basis.
So swimming gave me that foundation despite being in individual sport that the success
isn't going to happen without a good support network and a good team around you and the
irony is I spent a large part of my career working basically by myself so I really savoured
the moments that I have worked in an environment where you are a part of a team.
Yeah, I want to work with you.
I used to admire the culture that the swimming team created because you'd often see them
on the side of the pool days after their own events have finished supporting each other
and almost your own portable cheer squad every Olympics and World Champs, it was quite impressive.
Yeah, well it was a rule.
You will have team culture.
Yeah, but people, you know, I remember when I first started on the national team in 93
as a rookie it wasn't like that and I think to that point the success, you know, the emergence
of Kieran and what he brought to the pool deck and then Susie O'Neill comes along and
then you've got a male and a female, Sam Riley, you've got some upstanding quality people
who led by performances and it rubbed off on everyone else and then you go to Sydney
and you bring in your Thorpe's, Patria Thomas, Michael Klim, Grant Hackett, you bring in
this slew of athletes who have learnt from that, you know, your Kieran's and Susie's
and Patria's and so forth and you just buy into it quickly and you want to be a part
of it and it was fantastic so by the end you wanted to be in the stands and you wanted
to be cheering on your teammates.
It wasn't a rule anymore.
It was still a rule.
But like you say, you had created this amazing culture in the team and I always admired that
and I talk about that in our team building sessions about how, you know, if you have
that sort of passion in your team, that culture in your team, people feel what's called psychologically
safe and so in an environment, a work environment, they then give their best.
They always bring their best but if it's not a good team culture then you're not at your
best because you're worrying about what your colleague's doing or whatever rather than
supporting each other.
Exactly.
So we love talking about leadership so if you don't mind, I'd love to ask you some
questions about leadership and one of the questions we always ask is what makes somebody
the sort of person other people would be inspired to follow?
In other words, what are the character traits important in a leader from your perspective?
Somebody humble down to earth and someone that I would want to be like and by that I
mean for me the epitome of a leader is someone who walks in regardless of what level they're
at and they will always say hello.
Yeah.
The humility.
The humility of it.
For me that what that does is shows that there's a genuine care and interest that may be the
only interaction you have all day but the fact that the CEO has taken the time to walk
by and say hello, I think that's very powerful.
Did you ever meet John Bulkby when he was there?
Of course.
Yes.
So when I was working at the Sports Commission on John Bulkby's first day as the new director
I was running around with a help desk phone.
I was running out of the Sports Science building and John Bulkby, the new director, was being
shown around by somebody.
I can't remember who was showing him around.
I didn't know who this guy was but the guy walking him around said, Guy, Guy, this is
John, the new director.
I said, Hi John, nice to meet you and he said, Guy, what do you do?
I said, I'm on the help desk and he said, Oh, lovely to meet you.
I said, I'm just running off John to help somebody so yeah, lovely to meet you and I
ran away to help whoever had a computer problem at the time, you know, restart DOS or something.
And then I think it was two days later I was walking past John and he said, Guy, how are
you going?
How's the help desk going?
And then the day he met everyone and he remembered everyone's name and where they worked.
Yeah, very personable and I talk about that story all the time how personable he was and
the humility he had as well.
And for me that is what makes a great leader.
Well, somebody who is being led by somebody like that feels seen as well.
So they feel valid, they feel like they're contributing.
So of course you want to help, you want to give more if you're recognised.
Yeah, I've never worked in an environment like a bank, for example, where there's thousands
upon thousands of people.
So I don't know how that would work.
But every majority of jobs that I've had, you know, the office size has never been any
more than 40 or 50.
And so to be, you know, that's still a big effort from, you know, the senior management
or the senior leaders within an organisation to have the ability to do that.
But anyone who can.
Yeah, I worked with ING back when they were called ING direct and their CEO was like that,
he Vaughan, I think his name was, I hope I got that right.
But anyway, he used to spend time getting to know people.
He even was busking out of the front of the building in disguise one day to just kind
of get a feel for what it was like if people didn't know who he was.
Yeah, right.
It's like that undercover CEO.
Undercover CEO.
Whereas I worked for a company where we all wore name badges and you would see people
go, G'day Michelle.
And sometimes you just walk up, hi, and cover your name badge.
Everyone was mate.
Yeah.
Who's some leaders that you've learned from?
Not even necessarily leaders, who are people that you've admired and learned from?
My favourite leader of all time, he was the head coach of the Duke University basketball
program and he coached the American basketball team to gold at 2008, 2012, 2016.
His name's Mike Szyczewski.
Incredible passionate, a very vocal, great speaker, inspiring speaker.
I had the fortune of meeting him a couple of times and he couldn't have been any nicer.
Why would he give up time to this crazy fan who was there?
Because he was a crazy fan and he took time out of his day.
And for me, he was my all time favourite leader.
And yeah, the success of the program had a lot to do with it as well.
But when for me, what was very telling was NBA players are obviously some of the highest
paid athletes in the world.
They are on TV three or four times a week.
They are bigger than big in the US, which is from a sport point of view, quite often
the toughest market to crack.
And he could get everyone from LeBron James, Kobe Bryant to buy into that team ethos with
all those egos.
For me, that's incredible.
That says a lot about someone who is a great leader.
If I ever told you about when we arrived in Barcelona in 92 and we were standing, we were
getting our passes to go into the village, all these photographers came running into
the room and were all puffing up our chairs thinking that they were going to take photos
of us.
And then in walks the dream team.
So Jordan, Johnson, and it's like I'm the same distance I am to you from all these people
I grew up idolising.
When you went to the Olympics, did you see any other athletes that you had admired?
Where do we see them?
I got a hug from Steffi Graf in the opening ceremony.
So it's funny, the tennis players were, I remember vividly on the morning of my first
event at the 1996 Olympics and Lindsay Davenport and Monica Sellers were literally on the next
table over.
It was between heats and final of the Tournament of Freestyle and I didn't think I'd make
the final and I made the final.
And I was sitting next to my coach and he was starting to talk about race plan and all
I could see was Lindsay Davenport and Monica Sellers eating McDonald's french fries.
And I was blown away, I was like this is what the Olympics are about, being a sport, absolute
tragic.
I saw Muhammad Ali in the dining hall.
Michael Johnson wasn't staying in the village but he came into the village, must have been
doing something in particular, the same with the dream team, they weren't there but it
was that for me is what the Olympics were, Anaconda Cobra, I shared a golf cart with
her.
At the time though I did not know it was Anaconda Cobra, I have to be honest.
So yeah, amazing, best part of the Olympics for me.
And I clearly remember on our first day, our team manager, he sat us all down, remember
we were in that dormitory in 96, it was nothing special.
I didn't get it, we failed, we failed the qualifier.
Failed is the wrong word.
No, it's a failure, it's a story I tell.
Yeah that is tough, sorry.
No, not at all, just to let you know the year before we'd won the top 8 nations tournament
so we went from one to failing within a year.
Yeah that's hard.
Yeah it was tough.
They learnt a great lesson though.
It was a good lesson, very good lesson.
But anyway.
Well there, we were in a dormitory on the campus of Georgia Tech and our team manager's
like you know, you're here at the Olympics, you're all Olympians, you're all the same,
you don't need to be getting autographs or taking photos and I'm like, nah.
Yeah stuff like that.
Yeah and what did I do, I had my little wind up camera and my autograph book, loved it.
Yeah, so Muhammad Ali, did you get to talk to him?
No because literally he walked into the dining hall and then all of a sudden it was like
the parting of the Red Sea, everyone stood up, rushed to like the aisle and just clapped
as he walked by.
Brilliant.
It was incredible.
Peter Montgomery said to me once that he's the most humble human being you'll ever meet.
Right, that's so nice to hear.
Yeah when you talk to him, like it doesn't matter who you are, you get his undivided
attention.
Yeah beautiful.
Yeah talking about humble before Muhammad Ali.
Love hearing that.
Monty's a great man too.
Absolutely, absolutely.
And what he's achieved in his life, it's incredible.
So the coach that you, the NBA coach that you admire, have you taken on any of his qualities
or his style in your own leadership journey?
I've got a similar Polish last name.
That's a bad idea.
No I don't think so.
Well obviously I'd like to think that I say hello to everyone if we're being like, if
we're putting it that way.
But otherwise I don't know actually.
So are there any qualities that you have that you have taken on, like knowingly taken on
from somebody who you've admired or you've been led by, you followed, you saw a little
snippet of something and went oh I like that and I'll do that.
Wow that's a really good question.
As I was walking here I was like okay, you need to get in this mindset of leadership
and people who have inspired you and I'm thinking wow that's a very long list and now that I've
been put on a spot but this one's going to really, really throw you because you're not
going to think that I'm going to say it.
I'm obsessed with K-pop and the group BTS.
For me I survived the pandemic because of them and how, for a truly global phenomenon,
how much love that they provide their fans through just basic interactions whether it
be they get up on their platform and they do a live of them in the kitchen to their
messaging in their songs.
For me they're incredible leaders and what they've done to break down so many different
barriers whether it be people knowing about K-pop or the stuff that they do with UNICEF
or what they did for not just Black Lives Matter but also when there's a lot of Asian
hate crime in the US and bringing attention to that.
So for me I look at that and like I said you probably wouldn't realise but I think just
being nice to people and championing a cause is a beautiful thing.
Can I say Daniel, since the first time I met you I've observed that in yourself so yeah
you're always friendly to everyone and you give everyone your time.
My parents would be very proud.
Well they should be.
What are their first names?
Tony and Penny.
Tony and Penny you should be very proud.
Are they still on the Gold Coast?
Mum passed away not long once the pandemic started so that was a challenge through that
whole thing.
Very tough.
And yeah Dad's still kicking it strong on the Gold Coast so my sister and my niece are
up there.
They're coming down for Taylor's Suits in a couple of weeks.
Are you going?
Yes it'll be my ninth time.
How'd you get tickets?
Nine times yeah.
What?
Really?
So you're a, what are they called?
Swifter?
Oh yeah I feel like I'm a Swifty.
Yeah a Swifty.
You got your outfit?
I have not.
All over TikTok I'm seeing, you know my daughter's TikTok.
Oh I love your algorithm.
I'm seeing everyone doing their unboxing and yeah whatever.
Yeah and I'm taking my, so my niece is coming down with my sister and they're going and
then but I'm also taking my husband's two nieces and his twin sister so we're going
and we're making the bracelets.
Oh brilliant.
So I saw there are all these rules that you're allowed to do.
You need to send me this then.
I will.
I'll send you the rules because there are rules about what you can take, what you can't
take, friendship bracelets.
There are rules around the friendship bracelets.
Wow.
Yeah I'll send you the rules.
Okay.
Isn't she a phenomenon?
Oh listen I'm obsessed with her.
I'm obsessed with her relationship.
I just, you know kudos to a powerful, strong, passionate woman doing what she loves and
the inspiration she provides not just women but men.
It's yeah power to her.
She's also providing a script or a narrative that yeah that girls and women can feel comfortable
again it's not the first time like it so it's not they're having to stand up as if it's
they're doing it for the first time.
It's now a narrative that's out there about standing your ground and she's provided that.
Other women have as well before her but because she's got so much attention because of all
the avenues that she can you know can broadcast to social media and she's even on mainstream
news and every channel she's on just that having that audience and that audience hold
that she's got young girls can now you know easily say no that's you know I'm not putting
up with that and who do you think you are and questioning why did you do that and so
calling people out.
Yeah and I just feel the last 18 months has been the most incredible time if you are a
young young woman.
Yep.
The Matildas.
I immediately thought of Matildas.
It was the absolute highlight of my sporting life for me that I've never ridden so many
emotions in a sporting event.
We were the same.
All the family we were there on the lounge.
I just feel the snowball from that across you know I was reading an incredible story
on ESPN this morning about this young basketballer Caitlin Clark is her name and she's about
to break the all-time scoring record for women's division one basketball but you know the stadium's
on the road they're selling out for the first time ever and people are waiting 90 minutes
just to get a seat to go watch her and her team play.
The first ever professional women's ice hockey league has started.
You look at the emergence of the A league for women in particular in this country.
I mean it's just I don't have kids but if I had a kid I'd love it to be a girl I'd
love to be a girl dad and just I think it's a very special time.
Yeah.
That's right.
Well we'll introduce you to Maddie and you can adopt her because she's loving her swimming.
And she's and what I love about her is she's not competitive at all but she loves training
and she loves just swimming and she said I would swim every single day if I could we
haven't it's purely my laziness.
You're not lazy.
You're pacing.
But it's she loves it for swimming not for competing and she says oh the coach Rouse
is on me all the time because I don't go fast and I won't compete so he puts me in the front
so I have to go fast so they don't catch me.
Smart.
But she loves it and so yeah again when we told her that we were talking to you today
she was like oh okay and you were talking about how you would get a gold medal for training.
I also subscribe to enjoying the journey not just the destination.
Did you ever come across anyone within the team or in your training up like your career
swimming career from when you started up to the ultimate peak anyone along the way that
was purely focused on the goal and not enjoying the journey?
I did enjoy the journey.
And if so did they make it to their goal or not?
Was their attitude wrong?
Yeah I can probably say this.
Petria Thomas hated training like every day and obviously her record goes without saying
one of the most incredible athletes Australia has ever produced but she hated it.
Absolutely hated it.
Gianne Rooney was another one who did not like the training either so much so I believe
she has still not hopped back into pool since she retired back in 2006.
So yeah those two definitely come to mind because they were the opposite to me they
absolutely loved racing they were just hungry for the racing whereas the training they could
have left that.
Which shows that there are different types of athletes.
100% yeah absolutely.
I probably would have preferred to be more like them.
Really?
Yeah.
You shouldn't after all those hours of endless training get scared when you get behind the
blocks but that was what it ended up becoming like for me.
We tell our kids there's that anxiety or being scared is exactly the same chemical as being
excited so it's reframing.
You just needed to tell yourself that you were excited.
All those nerves would have been turned into something else.
I was excited when I was nine years old but then when you actually had to do it and it
was happening I was like oh this is too much.
So how did you manage your stress?
I didn't.
You didn't okay.
I think I'm a good study in how not to do it.
If I could have parked my brain, taken it out and put it on the chair next to the block
that would have been a good thing.
What about now?
Do I get nervous excited like that?
Yeah now.
Have you been able to learn from that?
Because I feel like I'm more process driven as I was always putting the car before the
horse so I was worried about the outcome as opposed to that process that journey of getting
there.
Now I'm just savouring that moment that swimming using an analogy, swimming for the fun as
opposed to the end result.
If I can swing back to another famous female athlete, Dawn Fraser, fantastic Australian
swimmer.
Michelle being an airline captain flew her many times and she would always hang around
after the flight for photographs and autographs.
I love hearing that story because my Dawn Fraser pool in Elmaine was obviously named
after her and to hear that she's still to this day allows people to fan on her and come
up and take photos and autograph and she'll hang around for an hour after the flight apparently.
We actually have to kick her off the flight.
New passengers need to come on, you're going to have to go.
A true national treasure right there.
Absolutely, cheeky but a national treasure like you say.
We're just looking at our notes here.
I love the fact that you're here Daniel.
I'm having a great time.
I've been looking forward to this podcast ever since you said yes.
Sorry Michelle.
Okay so I have a question.
Have you got any, what comes to mind the funniest thing ever in your first of all your swimming
career and then post swimming career?
Oh wow, the funniest thing ever.
That is a really tough question.
I don't think I've ever been asked the funniest thing ever.
Like if there's something and you'll be somewhere and there might be a little trigger and you
can't stop laughing like if it's internally because other people wouldn't understand or
you know there was a ritual for newbies or was there something when you won or was there
on tour, you know it happens on tour, stays on tour sort of thing but you can now tell
us.
Not really.
We did used to have rookie and skit nights and so forth and there was one at the World
Showcourse Championships in 1993 which was highly inappropriate now that we think back
at it.
Everything we did back then is now highly inappropriate.
It's crazy to think that if that happened today it would not.
No.
It would not.
OHS was different back then.
You'd be out the door and that's to that point earlier like being in a generation where there
was only four TV channels.
Also going through with no social media and no you know.
No recording of what you did.
How good was that?
I know.
So so good.
We were so much safer back then.
So much safer yet nowadays if I leave the house without my phone I literally have left
my life behind.
Yeah.
It's crazy.
It's a funny.
It's not really that funny now that I'm thinking about it but there was this video you see
it on YouTube and this guy was doing an interview for I think CNN and all of a sudden the door
opens and his daughter wheels in in this little roller thing and then next thing the little
baby comes the youngest one comes in and all of a sudden the mother high tails around the
corner all on live TV and the reason that is funny is because my now husband and I that
for us that was the funniest thing that we've ever seen in in our life.
And so for me that was probably something that's really funny which you have to see.
I remember that one.
I do.
I remember that as well.
Was it during lockdown when everyone was on Zoom and.
I feel like it may be interview may have happened before that.
Okay.
But it really came to the fore during that.
Yeah.
And just today just today there's a gentleman visited the office and he had no shoes on.
He just had his socks on.
Okay.
And he tripped getting onto the ferry and they fell in the harbor.
Oh.
And.
That's a good story.
My colleague.
My colleague bless her had to leave a meeting because he was just standing there in his
socks.
Poor guy.
But she couldn't stop laughing.
And then the whole office literally were crying tears of laughter.
So I really hope he's not listening to this podcast.
Well look.
It didn't happen.
It was just a story of my life.
Next next.
We can cut that one out.
And we can get the slippers and you can't keep them at work because you never know.
But the irony is we because we have outfitting for teams and stuff.
We felt for sure we're going to have a size 12 and a half assets.
We couldn't we couldn't find anything.
I could not find anything.
But it was it was very funny.
You had to be there kind of moment.
But I know what's going to happen.
I'm going to get back to the office and I'm going to be like oh that was funny.
I said that.
I was running training courses during Covid.
We went obviously everything went on to Zoom and I had a particular workshop where I think
I had people from four countries a few from Australia and most people didn't want to put
their cameras on for some reason.
But I said no it's going to be on.
I want to see your face.
If I tell a joke and it lands I want to see you laughing.
It's really lonely talking to it like a blank screen which I had to do a few times because
I had some workshops where nobody put their camera on.
So I made it a rule.
And this particular day it backfired because one particular guy was sitting there and his
partner walked behind him completely naked knowing they were on the Zoom.
How was that happening?
I know I know how do you not know that someone's at a computer that they're actually oh mind
you he wasn't talking so I guess she thought he was just looking at a screen and she walks
past completely naked.
Oh wow.
There was that one where the guy was doing it.
Yes.
I'm not a cat.
I didn't see that one.
He couldn't get the cat filter off.
That one made us laugh a lot too.
Isn't it funny that we can look back at that stuff now during the pandemic and laugh about
it.
Even just coming here today I was just mesmerised by still seeing people everywhere.
Yeah.
Sorry I don't rest.
Not at all.
I both hated and loved COVID.
I loved it from the perspective that I got to spend so much time with my son.
We got we had so much time to play football and do all sorts of things together.
But I didn't like it because we were isolated and it was horrible.
Horrible to isolate everyone from their community from their friends but I guess there's always
good and bad and everything.
I'm sorry this is not my podcast but I'm curious to know from you with your background and
then obviously so many planes were grounded and you hear all these stories like pilots
weren't able to like they're going to lose their training credentials or whatever it
might be like from that perspective that would have been horrible.
It was.
Everyone was there were basically two lots two mindsets.
So some were actually three some were who are old timers.
Oh thank goodness you know like there's a break I can get to stay home.
Others were who had no training other than aviation.
So they'd never been anything other than a pilot straight out of school.
That's what they were going to do and that's all they knew.
They were thinking my life is over that I can't do anything else.
I don't know what else to do.
And then there were people like myself who had come into aviation or had other skill
sets other training trades etc.
And you know we could turn our hand to anything and it was like OK well I'll try this for
a while thinking we'll come back like we knew it was going to come back.
The world couldn't go on without aviation and all the freight companies.
So freight companies were hiring pilots and it was that thing of do I stay and get the
job keeper which was a lot less than what we were used to being paid.
Or do I go you know take the jump and go over to a freight or do I do something else.
I actually accepted a redundancy during this and I looked at it as an opportunity.
So it's like OK well I've had 20 plus years of my career there.
I'm was going to retire in a few years after anyway.
I'll just take it take it early and do something else now.
Got lemons and made lemonade.
That's it.
Well and I don't know about you if you've interviewed anyone if you've been hiring but
that couple of years when the lockdowns were on and people were taking redundancies or
losing their jobs it doesn't really what I'm seeing is that companies are seeing that if
there's a gap of a couple of years there aren't questions.
So I OK. Yep we understand.
And whereas before if there was a gap why.
The red flag.
Yes.
Yeah.
But it's really the people who had the best mindset who survived during COVID.
I'm still staggered that we lived through that.
And got out of it.
I'm always fascinated and I would bring it back to our athletic performance.
You know the Tokyo Olympics from a performance point of view some of the what athletes were
able to do really made you sit back and go oh well maybe we've got this training thing
wrong because despite you know being locked out of venues and couldn't train or playing
together as teams it was some of the best performances the world has ever seen.
So I was sitting back thinking oh well maybe I only have to swim 40 kilometers a week and
not 80 kilometers a week and shows you the importance from a swimming perspective of
dry land.
But I think more than anything to your point it's you know the strength and the resilience
and that people got going through that was obviously unparalleled for many for all of
us really unless you'd lived through what was it?
The Spanish.
The Spanish flu.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
So Daniel looking back on your career what would you say are the greatest lessons that
you've got out of swimming and your career since then?
For me the power of bringing a full self every day is the most important thing that I've
learnt in life so only coming out as a gay man at 26 I felt like I robbed myself of some
of the happiest and best years of my life but now that I am able to bring my full self
to everything that I do that's the thing that I'm most proud of and the thing that I'm also
I regret the most as well if that makes sense.
So that from in terms of life and career that is the thing that would be on my headstone
if that was such a thing.
Do you think you would have been treated differently if your team knew?
Did they know?
No like I didn't really know to be honest with you.
I think hindsight I probably did but you just you suppress all of that sadly but you know
I talked earlier about I was scared standing behind the blocks and part of me often thinks
was I scared because I just didn't know who I was and I didn't know I didn't have an identity
so to speak.
I don't believe me understanding who I was would have changed the results.
I don't think I would have won gold medals and so forth.
I just feel like I would have not put the car before the horse and I would have enjoyed
that process and swimming at Olympic Games a lot more but I can't change it so all I
do is ensure that I don't put myself in that same position again.
It just shows me that even though looking back now you feel maybe you weren't in the
right mindset or the right priorities you're still Olympian even with that.
And a very successful Olympian.
So wow.
Yeah and for me I love that because no one can take away being Olympian from us and we
have adopted a phrase once an Olympian always an Olympian and not everyone has a great Olympic
experience which is why the role that we do I feel is really really important.
But for me I felt as though that was my only identity and I feel like that sort of you
know exasperated the way I was feeling and you know I had many regrets and if I could
have my time again probably that would be a big thing that I would change.
There would be many things that I would change and I'm happy to admit that.
Wouldn't we all?
We'd all love to go back in time.
We have routines that we use every day to make sure we are turning up our best.
Do you have any routines now?
You clearly are fit so what do you do now to make sure?
It's the nicest thing you've said.
So what do you do to maintain health but to turn up your best?
Exercise for me.
Both physically and more mentally.
I feel as though when I have a routine from an exercise point of view then I'm able to
bring not just my full self but my best self to work.
Interestingly I still get the guilty feelings if I'll go one or two days outside of my routine
of not exercising.
So for me exercise is what is the foundation of everything that I do because physically
obviously it's great even though my body does hurt but more mentally.
So for me from a routine point of view it is 100% exercise.
So what does your typical day look like?
I'm usually up at quarter to six and I swim three times a week and I'll go to the gym
twice a week.
Thursday is temple day so in a sense I treat my body like a temple so I like to have a
rest.
Oh nice, I like that idea.
That's a good one.
And then usually I work by eight and usually I leave by six.
Daylight savings, my husband and I like to go for a walk after dinner.
We are home bodies Monday to Friday.
The one thing and we said this in our wedding vows is whenever we can Sunday morning man
pool and marubra, best rock pool in the country, in the world, that is our thing every Sunday.
Yeah, rain, hail or shine.
12 months a year.
And when we can't do it we get sad.
But that's my life.
Do you have a dog?
No we do not.
We have no responsibility other than ourselves.
Is he a swimmer?
We actually met at the swimming club but he was more a social member than a swimmer but
I'll leave it at that.
Do you still compete?
No I don't but I do one ocean swim a year, that's coming up in a couple of weeks.
And I flirt with the idea of doing masters again but I'm just worried that I'm going
to go into a start block and I'll dive in and I'll rip the hammy off the bone.
I'm acutely aware of what my body's limitations are.
Okay, I can only imagine what it would be like turning up to a masters tournament and
then you've trained a bit and then you look over and there's Daniel Kowalski.
I'll do this ocean water swim and I won't win my age group.
There's these weekend warriors who are just insanely fit and it's, you know, I must admit
it's probably the most demoralising experience because I beat Daniel Kowalski.
You can hear them saying it.
I believe that you currently hold a masters world record though.
I don't anymore.
You don't, it's been taken from you hasn't it?
No, it's all been taken.
Yeah.
When you hear that you're like, you provided some joy in someone's life.
Exactly, exactly.
I'm here for you.
They're going home bragging.
That hurts.
You could have merch as you know.
I beat Daniel Kowalski, you can go and give them a t-shirt afterwards.
Well they buy it.
Well hopefully I only have to buy one or two.
I think you need to get back to competing mate.
Guy does.
We sometimes watch water polo matches down at Dawn Fraser and Guy gets the like, ah,
and then but then he goes, I couldn't.
Could you imagine the next day?
I do imagine.
I have nightmares still to this day because I dislocated my shoulder and ripped it all
apart and had a couple of operations and it's still not stable.
It's, the ligament's still missing and so we were working in Darwin and I said, let's
go and get a massage.
So we're getting this massage and she happens to grab my shoulder, put it into weird position,
and then massages and it popped out.
I screamed, she screamed and I think we were both screaming at the same pitch.
And I was just about at drool stage, you know when you're so relaxed you're like, oh, and
then I hear this and I said, are you right?
Not really wanting to move from the position.
He goes, no.
It's dangling at the front and so I have constant regular nightmares about going back and playing
and that happening and so the start of the nightmare is, oh, you've been selected again.
Oh, you know, because the ego death that you have when you retire, it never goes away in
my, well, it hasn't gone away in my psyche.
I keep having these recurring dreams where I'm getting the call up, oh, fantastic, back
on the team and then I jump in and the shoulder dislocates and so if you've got any tips on
how to finish those nightmares, how to get them out of my life.
As long as you don't die in your dreams, right?
No, I don't die in my dreams but I'm in pain.
Yeah, I can't help you.
Okay.
So, Chris, if you don't mind me asking you a question, as recording this, the World Championships
are on, are you following it?
Yeah, 9.30 tonight, I'm nine now, Australian Sharks.
How do you feel like when you watch that?
I struggle.
I'm in the water with them.
I'm so, being a goalkeeper, they played South Africa the other night and it was a bit of
a whitewash.
It was a 20 goal difference.
It wasn't really a high class game but I can't wait for tonight's game against Spain because
Spain have got some of the best players in the world and our guys are playing phenomenally
and my mate Tim is the coach.
We played together at Balmain.
So yeah, no, absolutely, following them and looking forward to seeing their successes
and then Japan as well.
I'll be watching every game eagerly.
Yeah, fantastic.
I love it.
Just speaking about the ego death, did you have an ego death?
So when you finished, were you lost at what to do and your identity as an Olympic swimmer,
did you feel that you couldn't use that anymore or who were you if you weren't that?
I was always striving to be more than just an Olympic swimmer.
I didn't want that to be my sole identity.
So yeah, for me I was striving for it not to be that.
So you're healthy.
You're a healthy mental.
I feel like I am now.
That's why you're in the position, I guess, because you understand it.
You knew what to do.
I feel like there's so many who could do the role that I'm doing.
That's humility for you.
I do feel like the experiences that I've had have set me up to be able to do the role.
I look forward to the day when I pass it on to the next person.
What is in the future for you?
So I'm almost 50.
So I feel like...
Oh boo hoo!
So old.
Because 55 in a couple of weeks and we won't say.
I'm younger than you.
Well you wouldn't know it, so you're both doing amazing.
Thank you, Daniel.
So for me, I feel like Brisbane 2032 in some professional capacity would be the end of
full-time work and I can go down to hopefully sort of part-time kind of role.
So I'd like to stay involved within the Olympic movement, some way, shape or form.
Don't know exactly what that looks like.
I think it's going to be very competitive to get a role for anything to do with Brisbane
2032.
But that would be...
My husband and I have talked a lot about moving to the Gold Coast.
So we've kind of got like a five, six year plan anyway.
You've got a spare room?
We don't even have a house or anything.
Join the cube.
Yeah, I could imagine.
Yeah, so for me, I don't entirely know.
Which is exciting as well.
I think we talked a lot about how people adjusted during COVID.
What it's taught me is that you can re-skill and re-train or learn something new and it
can be transferable into something else.
So yeah, it's a really good question.
We'll wait and see.
Yeah.
Well, Daniel, can I just say a very big thank you?
Thank you for coming in.
Thank you.
You've been an inspiration to many young swimmers and other athletes.
I looked up to you and we were both competing in different sports and it's been an absolute
pleasure learning from you today.
Michelle and I have a gift for you.
We'll give you in a moment.
We want to say that the lessons that you've provided us today and our listeners are so
valuable.
So really appreciate your time, mate.
Thank you both.
I've absolutely loved it.
Thank you.
Take care, mate.
Cheers.
Well, that was fun.
That was fun.
You're such a clown.
The clown.
Lady captain.
And who's going to listen to this?
Maybe our mums.
Thanks, mum.