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G'day leaders. On today's episode we discuss why to-do lists don't work and share some very

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powerful productivity techniques including references to Mark Twain. Enjoy.

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Why do they count backwards? Oh no, we're now recording. What? Hello captain.

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Come fly with me, let's fly, let's fly away.

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What are we going to talk about? I don't know. So leadership, life and everything else. Yeah.

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And we're live. No, we're recording. The look on your face every time. Hey Michelle. Hi guy.

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Well it still makes you laugh and I'm going to keep doing it even if it makes you cry.

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And we're live. No. So we're in Darwin. Yes. And we got to listen, I was able to listen to your

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amazing keynote at International Men's Day Conference up here arranged by Rebecca Forest. Yes,

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Beck, amazing woman. She does- No man left behind. No, yeah no man left behind. No one left behind.

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She also does the big Women's Day one each year. Yes, in March. Yeah, so amazing, amazing lady.

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She does so much work getting together these conferences and she showcases amazing speakers.

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I think next year she's got, I'm sure she won't mind me saying Christina Anu was she saying?

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I didn't hear that but maybe. You didn't? Okay, anyway, but she gets these amazing

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conferences together for International Women's Day and International Men's Day.

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Yeah, well I was speaking with her and she mentioned that the reason why she booked you

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for this one is because she was in the audience at an earlier conference that you did up here

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and you were mentioning about, she said to me that she still eats the frogs.

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And in relation to rather than doing the hardest thing she does the biggest thing and that's her

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frog. So I know that it's one of the workshops that you teach, one of the 25 workshops that are in

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your memory but this one is your most popular one. Yeah, most popular and probably the one I've taught

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the longest is Time Management and it was a component from that course that I did in the

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keynote last year. So they, when I was up here last year they said can you do, oh yeah,

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when I was up here last year they said can you do, oh it was this year, early on this year,

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they said can you do something around productivity and I said yeah absolutely,

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that's the thing I teach more than anything and so yeah we did some stuff and so she remembered that.

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She did and she still uses it. Oh awesome, awesome. So do you know what the Eat the Frog

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concept is? I do. You do? Okay, well for our listeners I'll just share what it is. So

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Mark Twain, the author, said if the first thing that you have to do in the morning is

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eat a frog, the rest of the day nothing will be that bad and then a guy called Brian Tracy took

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that and wrote a book called Eat the Frog First. It's a time management book and the concept is

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this, if you have something that you don't want to do and you put it off towards the end of the day

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or the end of the week, your brain knows that it's coming up. Your brain knows that there's

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this awful thing coming up at the end of the day or the end of the week and it doesn't want to do

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it, that's why you put it off and so subconsciously what your brain is going to do is you're going to

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slow down, you're going to procrastinate, you're going to pause, you're going to look for anything

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else that you can do to avoid that awful thing coming up. So the studies show that if you put

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something off, your brain now stresses about it and doesn't want it so it will do whatever it can

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to push it away from you so that you don't get there. It also becomes bigger, doesn't it?

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Oh, and it has to because your brain's natural tendency is to catastrophize on things that it

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finds fearful or ugly or whatever. So your brain makes it worse than what it is so that you can

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protect yourself from it. That's basically what our subconscious mind is doing all the time. So

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if you put something off, then your brain doesn't want to get there. It doesn't want it and so you're

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going to start to slow down and procrastinate. So what we say in the course and this is a very

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old time management principle is whatever you don't want to do, whatever you want to put off,

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do it first thing in the morning, get it done, and then move forward and move away from it.

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And what happens is if you move towards something you don't want to do, you slow down, but if you

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do it straight away, your self-esteem goes up because you did the thing that you were avoiding.

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And then what you often find is it was never as bad as what you predicted in your mind. It was

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never as awful. And so your self-esteem goes up, your motivation goes up, and then you start

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moving towards more pleasurable things. And so you can even reward yourself after doing it if you want

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to. Well, everything else seems like a reward. Yeah. That made me think of to-do lists.

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Which don't work. I know. I know that you have this opinion.

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It's a very strong opinion. Yes. Yes.

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Explain, please. Okay. So to-do lists aren't time management.

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A lot of people, in the time management course, I say, okay, who uses to-do lists? Put your hands up

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and all these hands go up. And I say, are to-do lists time management? And they look at you and

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they think, yeah. And I go, well, no, it's not time management. Why do you put things on a list?

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So you don't forget. It's memory management. Now, they're really, really important. You have to put

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things down on a list. You don't want to carry stuff around in your head and, oh, I've got to

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do that report. I've got to send that email off or whatever it is. If you're carrying stuff around

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your head, it's quite stressful for your brain to constantly remember those things. And so

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putting it down on to-do list is memory management. You put it on the list so you don't forget.

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Yes. Yes. But here's the thing about our brain. When we put things on a to-do list, or even if

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we carry them around in our head, I've read in a book once that they're called open loops,

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but it's basically stuff that you have to do at some point in time in the future. And there are

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consequences of not doing them. So your brain thinks that that's the danger that you have in

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your life. Our limbic brain's designed to protect us. And so if we've said, I've got to do this

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report, and then subconsciously you think, well, and if I don't get it done, I'm going to lose my

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job or whatever. So you have these things that are sitting in your mind that need to be done at some

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point in time in the future. You might write it on a to-do list or you carry it around in your head.

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And what your brain will continually do until that thing has been done, it will keep reminding you

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of it. So Michelle, have you ever been at home and you think, oh, I've got to do that tomorrow

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at work? Or you're at home and you're meant to be with your family and you're thinking about

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something you should be doing next week? Yeah. It's even woken me in the middle of the night.

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Or when I've woken in the middle of the night, I then start thinking about it. Yeah. You can't

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get back to sleep. Well, decisions made at 2.30 in the morning are never great. Yeah. Very true.

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But do you know why that's happening? Yeah, because of the open loop that you were just

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talking about. Yeah, it's an open loop. It hasn't been done. It's just on a list. It's just hanging

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around in your head and your brain's job is to protect you from danger. And so it keeps

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whacking you on your head. To-do lists don't work because they hang over the top of your head.

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And every now and then they whack you on the top of the head and say, hey, don't forget about me.

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Don't forget about this. Don't forget about that. And they keep coming into your mind because they

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haven't been done. And that's the new danger in your life. It's not lions and tigers anymore.

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I've got an email I have to send. Yeah. Yeah. So that's why I say to-do lists don't work.

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To-do lists aren't prioritized. No. Yeah. They're never finished. Every time you tick two or three

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things off, five or six other things have added themselves to the list. And so really as a time

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management tool, they're a disincentive. They're very important. But if you use them on their own,

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just a to-do list, you're actually making your life more difficult. Well, it looks overwhelming

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as well. If you've got 20 or 30 things on there or even 10, the day is only so long. Yeah. Exactly.

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Yeah. And when you look at the list, which one are you going to choose? The easy one. That's it. Why?

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Because you can get it done quickly. That's what we tell ourselves. That's right. That's what we

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tell ourselves. Oh, I'll just tick it off. Look at me working. No. The reason why you're choosing

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the easy one is because you're lazy. Absolutely. And I'm not insulting you. You're not. I see what

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you do in your life. You're a keynote speaker. You're now going to be an author. You're working

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in a startup. Michelle, you are not a lazy person. But fundamentally, human beings are lazy. Yeah.

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Because it's built into our biology. When we have two choices, if we can choose, we'll choose the

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easier path because it's called conservation of energy. When we lived out there in the savanna,

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wandering around in tribes, you didn't wake up in the morning, go for a jog. You only ran if

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something was chasing you for dinner or you were chasing something for dinner. Yeah. Other than

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that, you sat around and you conserved your energy. It's built into every living organism on this

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planet to conserve energy. Yeah. And so when we have a list of things to do in front of us,

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our brain is designed to choose the easier thing, not because, oh, look, I'll get something done.

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I'll tick it off and I'll feel like I'm making progress. Your brain is designed to choose the

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easier path because you're lazy. Fundamentally, your brain is wanting to conserve energy wherever

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possible. So I need to include have a rest on my list. Oh, absolutely. Have a cup of tea. I've

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been saying this to you for a long time. You need to spend more time on looking after Michelle

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because you always look after everyone else first. You're the most amazing human being. You do all

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these things and you say yes to every request made of you. Oh, thank you. No, you are an exceptional

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human being. And I get to do podcasts. This is awesome. Anyway, so going back to to-do lists,

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to-do lists on their own don't work. They're not prioritized. They're never finished. And you

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always choose the easier thing to tick it off and you convince yourself you're doing the right thing.

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Look at me working away. So what do you recommend then that you do? Because it is great to get it

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out of your head and on a list so that you don't need to try and memorize it. So what do you

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recommend then? All right. So here's the big secret from our time management course. Every

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Friday afternoon, what you want to do is you sit down with your list of things that are hanging

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out of your head, the things that didn't get done this week, the things you have to do next week,

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and you start committing time for them. So at nine o'clock on Monday, I'm going to do that one. That's

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the frog or whatever it is. Then at 10.30, I'm going to do that one. So you actually make a

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commitment with a future time. Now here's the beautiful thing about our brains. When you put

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it into your diary, let's say Tuesday next week at 2 PM. You actually take that thing off your

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to-do list and you stick it at 2 PM Tuesday next week, your brain thinks it's been done.

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Because your brain can't differentiate between current time, future time, past time. So there

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is only ever now in your brain with regards to time. And so when you put it at 2 PM on Tuesday,

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your brain thinks it's been done. So now you can go home at the end of the day, you've planned out

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next week. And what's happening is your brain thinks, oh, all those things have been done.

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So you can enjoy your weekend.

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You can. And your brain's not going to continually remind you of those things that are hanging out

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your head because they've been done at two o'clock next Tuesday. Yeah. So to-do lists on their own

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don't work. Now here's another mindset change I'd like our listeners to bring into their life,

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right? I was running a stress management course and in the workshop, I always ask them to break

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up into pairs and think about something that stresses them and then change the way they think

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about it and remove the stress from their lives. And it's a funny long story, but I'll abbreviate

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it. So the guy that was actually the manager of the group, he'd run me and he said, guy, look,

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I need you to fix my team. I said, mate, I don't fix anyone. No one's broken. He said, nah,

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nah, they're broken. You need to fix them. They're stressed. Fix them. Come on. You know,

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I said, mate, I don't fix anyone. No one's broken, but I can certainly help them with stress

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management and personal resilience, which is what he was asking me to teach them. I said, nah,

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nah. He said, nah, nah, they're broken, mate. You fix them. I'll book you in. Anyway, so he was a

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funny character. So he had about 30 people in his team and he wasn't going to be there on the day.

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Right. But on the day you turned up, right? And so we get to this point in the course where I say,

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okay, go off and think about something that stresses you and change the way you think about

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it, remove your stress. And we came back and I said, does anyone have one that they can't fix?

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And he said, yeah, I've got one. I said, what's that? And he said, he said, I come into work

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every day and there's a hundred new things on my to-do list. I've got a hundred new emails in my

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inbox and oh, I'm stressed. This guy sounds like Barnaby Joyce. That just might be my croaky voice.

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Anyway, and I said, okay, we just need to change the way you think about it. And he said, well,

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what would you suggest? And I said, well, how about this? How about you think, all right,

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the more emails I get, the more important I am. And he went, nah. And here I am yelling into the

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microphone for our poor listeners. And no matter what I suggested to him, he just wouldn't change

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his mind. He just did not want to get rid of the stress because he carried around a badge and his

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badge said, I'm busy and I'm important. It's a badge that everyone's got on their chest. I'm

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busy. How's work? Busy. It's the worst word you can use. Anyway, so I joked that I hypnotized him.

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I don't hypnotize anyone, but I took him into the corner in one of the breaks and I just planted a

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few seeds into his head. And I'll ask you this question and you just, actually now I'll ask our

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listeners this question. If you have a hundred things on your to-do list, how many things do

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you have to do? Now, most people instantly yell out a hundred, right? Oh, I know the answer.

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You know the answer. You've seen this one. And most people yell out a hundred. I said, no,

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it's wrong. You only ever have one thing to do and that's the thing that you're doing now.

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And when you finish that thing, you only ever have one thing to do. You only ever have one thing to

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do and that's the thing that you're doing now. Because if you put 100% of your neural resources

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onto the thing that you're doing now, you're going to be the most effective you can possibly be.

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Yeah. Yeah. But what's the impact of putting, let's say 10 or 20% of your neural resources

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on the thing that you're doing and then spreading the 90 or 80% out over the other things that you

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can't control? Well, you're just going to be stressed and- And nothing's actually done.

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Nothing's done probably, yeah. And you feel out of control. And so you only ever have one thing to

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do. So that was one of the thoughts I planted in his head. The other thought that I planted in his

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head is that if your to-do list is finished, if your inbox has got no emails coming in,

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you're out of a job. Yeah. You never want your to-do list to finish. You want work to be coming in

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all the time. Yes. But you want to feel in control and that's why the time management principles that

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we teach work, because you never want your to-do list to stop or be or finish. You never want to

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get to it. There is no end point when it comes to work. I want to be working to the day I die. I

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love what I do. I don't consider it work. I want to be doing stuff. I want to have stuff to do every

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minute on this planet. I also rest like a world champion, but you've got to think that you never

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want work to stop. No, but also it doesn't just apply to work. It's even in your everyday admin.

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Yeah. So your life admin at home. Yep. It'll never finish. No. Why would you want it to finish? Why

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would you want the vacuuming to never have to be done again? There's a lot of people listening.

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Guy, you're an idiot. But yeah, you never want things to finish. You want this thing to go on

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forever as long as it can anyway. Yeah. No, I like it. Yeah. So maybe we can do another podcast on

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how to prioritize, but that's another thing. Your to-do list needs to be prioritized and then you

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commit time to the tasks. You put them into your diary. Because time management isn't about writing

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lists. It's about making a commitment with some time in the future. I like it. I like it. I'm

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going to dump, brain dump so that I don't have to keep thinking at 2.30 in the morning about what

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I haven't done or what I have to do. Yep. And then stick it into appointments next week. Make your

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plan. I like it. Yeah. Cool. Well, that was a nice quick one. Yeah. I like that. Bose, Bollinger,

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come on. We're still waiting. More dogs. The world will be a better place with more dogs. Thanks,

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Michelle. Thanks, Guy. Bye. Bye. Well, that was fun. That was fun. You're such a clown.

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You're such a clown, Captain. Lady Captain. And who's going to listen to this? Maybe our mums.

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Thanks, mom.