G'day leaders. On today's episode we discuss why to-do lists don't work and share some very
powerful productivity techniques including references to Mark Twain. Enjoy.
Why do they count backwards? Oh no, we're now recording. What? Hello captain.
Come fly with me, let's fly, let's fly away.
What are we going to talk about? I don't know. So leadership, life and everything else. Yeah.
And we're live. No, we're recording. The look on your face every time. Hey Michelle. Hi guy.
Well it still makes you laugh and I'm going to keep doing it even if it makes you cry.
And we're live. No. So we're in Darwin. Yes. And we got to listen, I was able to listen to your
amazing keynote at International Men's Day Conference up here arranged by Rebecca Forest. Yes,
Beck, amazing woman. She does- No man left behind. No, yeah no man left behind. No one left behind.
She also does the big Women's Day one each year. Yes, in March. Yeah, so amazing, amazing lady.
She does so much work getting together these conferences and she showcases amazing speakers.
I think next year she's got, I'm sure she won't mind me saying Christina Anu was she saying?
I didn't hear that but maybe. You didn't? Okay, anyway, but she gets these amazing
conferences together for International Women's Day and International Men's Day.
Yeah, well I was speaking with her and she mentioned that the reason why she booked you
for this one is because she was in the audience at an earlier conference that you did up here
and you were mentioning about, she said to me that she still eats the frogs.
And in relation to rather than doing the hardest thing she does the biggest thing and that's her
frog. So I know that it's one of the workshops that you teach, one of the 25 workshops that are in
your memory but this one is your most popular one. Yeah, most popular and probably the one I've taught
the longest is Time Management and it was a component from that course that I did in the
keynote last year. So they, when I was up here last year they said can you do, oh yeah,
when I was up here last year they said can you do, oh it was this year, early on this year,
they said can you do something around productivity and I said yeah absolutely,
that's the thing I teach more than anything and so yeah we did some stuff and so she remembered that.
She did and she still uses it. Oh awesome, awesome. So do you know what the Eat the Frog
concept is? I do. You do? Okay, well for our listeners I'll just share what it is. So
Mark Twain, the author, said if the first thing that you have to do in the morning is
eat a frog, the rest of the day nothing will be that bad and then a guy called Brian Tracy took
that and wrote a book called Eat the Frog First. It's a time management book and the concept is
this, if you have something that you don't want to do and you put it off towards the end of the day
or the end of the week, your brain knows that it's coming up. Your brain knows that there's
this awful thing coming up at the end of the day or the end of the week and it doesn't want to do
it, that's why you put it off and so subconsciously what your brain is going to do is you're going to
slow down, you're going to procrastinate, you're going to pause, you're going to look for anything
else that you can do to avoid that awful thing coming up. So the studies show that if you put
something off, your brain now stresses about it and doesn't want it so it will do whatever it can
to push it away from you so that you don't get there. It also becomes bigger, doesn't it?
Oh, and it has to because your brain's natural tendency is to catastrophize on things that it
finds fearful or ugly or whatever. So your brain makes it worse than what it is so that you can
protect yourself from it. That's basically what our subconscious mind is doing all the time. So
if you put something off, then your brain doesn't want to get there. It doesn't want it and so you're
going to start to slow down and procrastinate. So what we say in the course and this is a very
old time management principle is whatever you don't want to do, whatever you want to put off,
do it first thing in the morning, get it done, and then move forward and move away from it.
And what happens is if you move towards something you don't want to do, you slow down, but if you
do it straight away, your self-esteem goes up because you did the thing that you were avoiding.
And then what you often find is it was never as bad as what you predicted in your mind. It was
never as awful. And so your self-esteem goes up, your motivation goes up, and then you start
moving towards more pleasurable things. And so you can even reward yourself after doing it if you want
to. Well, everything else seems like a reward. Yeah. That made me think of to-do lists.
Which don't work. I know. I know that you have this opinion.
It's a very strong opinion. Yes. Yes.
Explain, please. Okay. So to-do lists aren't time management.
A lot of people, in the time management course, I say, okay, who uses to-do lists? Put your hands up
and all these hands go up. And I say, are to-do lists time management? And they look at you and
they think, yeah. And I go, well, no, it's not time management. Why do you put things on a list?
So you don't forget. It's memory management. Now, they're really, really important. You have to put
things down on a list. You don't want to carry stuff around in your head and, oh, I've got to
do that report. I've got to send that email off or whatever it is. If you're carrying stuff around
your head, it's quite stressful for your brain to constantly remember those things. And so
putting it down on to-do list is memory management. You put it on the list so you don't forget.
Yes. Yes. But here's the thing about our brain. When we put things on a to-do list, or even if
we carry them around in our head, I've read in a book once that they're called open loops,
but it's basically stuff that you have to do at some point in time in the future. And there are
consequences of not doing them. So your brain thinks that that's the danger that you have in
your life. Our limbic brain's designed to protect us. And so if we've said, I've got to do this
report, and then subconsciously you think, well, and if I don't get it done, I'm going to lose my
job or whatever. So you have these things that are sitting in your mind that need to be done at some
point in time in the future. You might write it on a to-do list or you carry it around in your head.
And what your brain will continually do until that thing has been done, it will keep reminding you
of it. So Michelle, have you ever been at home and you think, oh, I've got to do that tomorrow
at work? Or you're at home and you're meant to be with your family and you're thinking about
something you should be doing next week? Yeah. It's even woken me in the middle of the night.
Or when I've woken in the middle of the night, I then start thinking about it. Yeah. You can't
get back to sleep. Well, decisions made at 2.30 in the morning are never great. Yeah. Very true.
But do you know why that's happening? Yeah, because of the open loop that you were just
talking about. Yeah, it's an open loop. It hasn't been done. It's just on a list. It's just hanging
around in your head and your brain's job is to protect you from danger. And so it keeps
whacking you on your head. To-do lists don't work because they hang over the top of your head.
And every now and then they whack you on the top of the head and say, hey, don't forget about me.
Don't forget about this. Don't forget about that. And they keep coming into your mind because they
haven't been done. And that's the new danger in your life. It's not lions and tigers anymore.
I've got an email I have to send. Yeah. Yeah. So that's why I say to-do lists don't work.
To-do lists aren't prioritized. No. Yeah. They're never finished. Every time you tick two or three
things off, five or six other things have added themselves to the list. And so really as a time
management tool, they're a disincentive. They're very important. But if you use them on their own,
just a to-do list, you're actually making your life more difficult. Well, it looks overwhelming
as well. If you've got 20 or 30 things on there or even 10, the day is only so long. Yeah. Exactly.
Yeah. And when you look at the list, which one are you going to choose? The easy one. That's it. Why?
Because you can get it done quickly. That's what we tell ourselves. That's right. That's what we
tell ourselves. Oh, I'll just tick it off. Look at me working. No. The reason why you're choosing
the easy one is because you're lazy. Absolutely. And I'm not insulting you. You're not. I see what
you do in your life. You're a keynote speaker. You're now going to be an author. You're working
in a startup. Michelle, you are not a lazy person. But fundamentally, human beings are lazy. Yeah.
Because it's built into our biology. When we have two choices, if we can choose, we'll choose the
easier path because it's called conservation of energy. When we lived out there in the savanna,
wandering around in tribes, you didn't wake up in the morning, go for a jog. You only ran if
something was chasing you for dinner or you were chasing something for dinner. Yeah. Other than
that, you sat around and you conserved your energy. It's built into every living organism on this
planet to conserve energy. Yeah. And so when we have a list of things to do in front of us,
our brain is designed to choose the easier thing, not because, oh, look, I'll get something done.
I'll tick it off and I'll feel like I'm making progress. Your brain is designed to choose the
easier path because you're lazy. Fundamentally, your brain is wanting to conserve energy wherever
possible. So I need to include have a rest on my list. Oh, absolutely. Have a cup of tea. I've
been saying this to you for a long time. You need to spend more time on looking after Michelle
because you always look after everyone else first. You're the most amazing human being. You do all
these things and you say yes to every request made of you. Oh, thank you. No, you are an exceptional
human being. And I get to do podcasts. This is awesome. Anyway, so going back to to-do lists,
to-do lists on their own don't work. They're not prioritized. They're never finished. And you
always choose the easier thing to tick it off and you convince yourself you're doing the right thing.
Look at me working away. So what do you recommend then that you do? Because it is great to get it
out of your head and on a list so that you don't need to try and memorize it. So what do you
recommend then? All right. So here's the big secret from our time management course. Every
Friday afternoon, what you want to do is you sit down with your list of things that are hanging
out of your head, the things that didn't get done this week, the things you have to do next week,
and you start committing time for them. So at nine o'clock on Monday, I'm going to do that one. That's
the frog or whatever it is. Then at 10.30, I'm going to do that one. So you actually make a
commitment with a future time. Now here's the beautiful thing about our brains. When you put
it into your diary, let's say Tuesday next week at 2 PM. You actually take that thing off your
to-do list and you stick it at 2 PM Tuesday next week, your brain thinks it's been done.
Because your brain can't differentiate between current time, future time, past time. So there
is only ever now in your brain with regards to time. And so when you put it at 2 PM on Tuesday,
your brain thinks it's been done. So now you can go home at the end of the day, you've planned out
next week. And what's happening is your brain thinks, oh, all those things have been done.
So you can enjoy your weekend.
You can. And your brain's not going to continually remind you of those things that are hanging out
your head because they've been done at two o'clock next Tuesday. Yeah. So to-do lists on their own
don't work. Now here's another mindset change I'd like our listeners to bring into their life,
right? I was running a stress management course and in the workshop, I always ask them to break
up into pairs and think about something that stresses them and then change the way they think
about it and remove the stress from their lives. And it's a funny long story, but I'll abbreviate
it. So the guy that was actually the manager of the group, he'd run me and he said, guy, look,
I need you to fix my team. I said, mate, I don't fix anyone. No one's broken. He said, nah,
nah, they're broken. You need to fix them. They're stressed. Fix them. Come on. You know,
I said, mate, I don't fix anyone. No one's broken, but I can certainly help them with stress
management and personal resilience, which is what he was asking me to teach them. I said, nah,
nah. He said, nah, nah, they're broken, mate. You fix them. I'll book you in. Anyway, so he was a
funny character. So he had about 30 people in his team and he wasn't going to be there on the day.
Right. But on the day you turned up, right? And so we get to this point in the course where I say,
okay, go off and think about something that stresses you and change the way you think about
it, remove your stress. And we came back and I said, does anyone have one that they can't fix?
And he said, yeah, I've got one. I said, what's that? And he said, he said, I come into work
every day and there's a hundred new things on my to-do list. I've got a hundred new emails in my
inbox and oh, I'm stressed. This guy sounds like Barnaby Joyce. That just might be my croaky voice.
Anyway, and I said, okay, we just need to change the way you think about it. And he said, well,
what would you suggest? And I said, well, how about this? How about you think, all right,
the more emails I get, the more important I am. And he went, nah. And here I am yelling into the
microphone for our poor listeners. And no matter what I suggested to him, he just wouldn't change
his mind. He just did not want to get rid of the stress because he carried around a badge and his
badge said, I'm busy and I'm important. It's a badge that everyone's got on their chest. I'm
busy. How's work? Busy. It's the worst word you can use. Anyway, so I joked that I hypnotized him.
I don't hypnotize anyone, but I took him into the corner in one of the breaks and I just planted a
few seeds into his head. And I'll ask you this question and you just, actually now I'll ask our
listeners this question. If you have a hundred things on your to-do list, how many things do
you have to do? Now, most people instantly yell out a hundred, right? Oh, I know the answer.
You know the answer. You've seen this one. And most people yell out a hundred. I said, no,
it's wrong. You only ever have one thing to do and that's the thing that you're doing now.
And when you finish that thing, you only ever have one thing to do. You only ever have one thing to
do and that's the thing that you're doing now. Because if you put 100% of your neural resources
onto the thing that you're doing now, you're going to be the most effective you can possibly be.
Yeah. Yeah. But what's the impact of putting, let's say 10 or 20% of your neural resources
on the thing that you're doing and then spreading the 90 or 80% out over the other things that you
can't control? Well, you're just going to be stressed and- And nothing's actually done.
Nothing's done probably, yeah. And you feel out of control. And so you only ever have one thing to
do. So that was one of the thoughts I planted in his head. The other thought that I planted in his
head is that if your to-do list is finished, if your inbox has got no emails coming in,
you're out of a job. Yeah. You never want your to-do list to finish. You want work to be coming in
all the time. Yes. But you want to feel in control and that's why the time management principles that
we teach work, because you never want your to-do list to stop or be or finish. You never want to
get to it. There is no end point when it comes to work. I want to be working to the day I die. I
love what I do. I don't consider it work. I want to be doing stuff. I want to have stuff to do every
minute on this planet. I also rest like a world champion, but you've got to think that you never
want work to stop. No, but also it doesn't just apply to work. It's even in your everyday admin.
Yeah. So your life admin at home. Yep. It'll never finish. No. Why would you want it to finish? Why
would you want the vacuuming to never have to be done again? There's a lot of people listening.
Guy, you're an idiot. But yeah, you never want things to finish. You want this thing to go on
forever as long as it can anyway. Yeah. No, I like it. Yeah. So maybe we can do another podcast on
how to prioritize, but that's another thing. Your to-do list needs to be prioritized and then you
commit time to the tasks. You put them into your diary. Because time management isn't about writing
lists. It's about making a commitment with some time in the future. I like it. I like it. I'm
going to dump, brain dump so that I don't have to keep thinking at 2.30 in the morning about what
I haven't done or what I have to do. Yep. And then stick it into appointments next week. Make your
plan. I like it. Yeah. Cool. Well, that was a nice quick one. Yeah. I like that. Bose, Bollinger,
come on. We're still waiting. More dogs. The world will be a better place with more dogs. Thanks,
Michelle. Thanks, Guy. Bye. Bye. Well, that was fun. That was fun. You're such a clown.
You're such a clown, Captain. Lady Captain. And who's going to listen to this? Maybe our mums.
Thanks, mom.