G'day listeners, today's episode is on listening and we talk about why the art of listening
is disappearing, why the art of listening is important and techniques to improve your
listening skills. Enjoy. Why did it count backwards? Oh no, we're now recording.
What? Hello captain. Come fly with me, let's fly, let's fly. What are we going to talk about? I don't know. So leadership, life and everything else. Yeah.
And we're live. No, we're recording. Hey Michelle. Hi Guy. How you doing? Good, how you doing? I'm really good thank you. That's good. It's been a little while. It has I know. Life has been full. It has been full. Yeah so we're down here in Adelaide, you've just been doing some workshops with Uniting SA. Yes, yeah, beautiful organisation and
yeah this week we're doing some customer experience workshops and we're talking about creating exceptional customer experiences and part of that course we talk about listening skills and I thought it'd be a great topic to do a podcast on. Fantastic. But before we do that, you've just recently done a keynote. I got the pleasure of watching yesterday. You were with Edge Early Learning. Yeah. Yeah and our last podcast guest, Annie Bryce, the CEO.
That was fantastic. Very, very inspiring person. Yeah she is. She's very impressive. It was interesting watching her yesterday, observing her and after my keynote she's very succinct but she really made sure that all of the leaders in the room that she had invited to the conference were all feeling safe to express themselves and she was very encouraging of their professional development.
I thought she did a great job of summarising all of the key points from your keynote as well. She did, I know. I took some notes. I wish we had an Annie everywhere we went, you know, at the end of our keynote she stands up and says, okay so this is the key message that you would have got there. She was amazing. She was. Anyway so we're going to talk about listening. So we were joking about this earlier, we're going to talk about listening. What?
Yeah and I knew you were going to do that. I know your sense of humour so well it's really bad just like mine. We share the same level of humour I'm afraid. So sorry to our listeners.
Well one of the reasons why we decided to talk about this today is that listening is almost like a lost art.
It is and it's going away. It's actually disappearing. Have I told you about the experiment I do in the classes?
No.
Okay so it's going to be about 20 years now I've been running this little experiment. I keep telling people I'm writing a book about it but I still haven't written the book. The fact that listening is disappearing, the art of listening is disappearing from society.
And so in especially the customer experience workshops, also the leadership workshops, we talk about listening but I do a listening test. And so I tell everyone I give them a scenario. I say okay this is the scenario and I'm going to be a customer.
I'm going to be ringing you up. I want you to listen very, very, very carefully and I emphasise that a lot. I say I'm going to be talking fast but I want you to listen very, very, very, very carefully.
And then I get them to put their pens down and sit up straight and try and listen. And in the scenario that I use there's a couple of key pieces of information that they always miss. They always miss it.
And then I say to everyone okay put your hand up. Who heard this? And they go no. And who heard this? And they go no. Did you say that? And I said yeah absolutely I did.
But they didn't hear it because of the way people listen these days. We've discussed this quote before. It's one of our favourite quotes that people don't listen with the intent to understand. They listen with the intent to reply.
Or in customer service they listen with the intent to solve a problem. And over the last 20 years of doing this experiment I've noticed that listening skills are getting worse and worse and worse.
So 20 years ago about 90% of the class would hear one element of that scenario that I pretend that I'm a customer. And then 50% would hear the other element.
But if you come fast forward to the year 2023, that same scenario, that 90% of the class used to hear a certain element. Now it's under 10% hear it.
And then with regards to the other bit that half the class used to hear, almost no one hears now. And I'm a bit I guess disenfranchised that if that's the right word that our listening skills as a society are getting worse.
Why do you think that's so?
I've got two theories. It's very hard to prove this, but I think the first part of the theory is that information overload, we're bombarded with more information than any generation in history. Our hippocampus, the librarian of our brain just can't cope with the quantity of information that's coming our way every day.
The emails, the text messages, the billboards, the advertising, there's just this bombardment of information. And so you have to filter. And when you filter, you're not taking everything in. If we didn't filter, we wouldn't be able to live in this era.
That's the first part. But the second part, I think, is that we're losing the art of listening because we're spending most of our time communicating via text and email. If you look at young kids, they get on the bus at the end of school, they sit down, they jump into their phones straight away and start texting, but they're texting their kids sitting next to them.
They're not texting somebody that's not there. They're actually having conversations sitting side by side instead of turning to each other and talking. And so the art of listening is disappearing. And it's really quite sad, I think, because listening is a vital skill that allows us to make strong connections with each other.
I do know that when I'm tired, when I'm overloaded with information from other sources, it's coming at you, like you said, it is hard to listen because it's tiring to listen.
It can be.
And sometimes you just want to, yeah, just give me the pertinent points. You don't want the whole story. I understand that I'm guilty of often listening to solve, not listening to understand because I just need to get on with whatever next.
Well, everyone claims that they're busy. I don't think we're busy. I think we're out of control. I think we feel out of control. So we use the word busy to describe that. And so yeah, we take shortcuts by not really listening to people.
But it's such an important skill because if you can develop the skill of really listening, you can achieve wonderful things. And I think the most important thing is that it helps people feel validated and justified and heard and listened to, which is such an important part of being a human that somebody recognizes you and understands you and makes you feel valid.
Yeah. Plus it also saves time if you do listen effectively the first time.
That's it. That's it. Instead of using email, which is misunderstood 90% of the time.
That's right. Backwards and forwards when it's easy just to pick up the phone and ask, you know, in a couple of minutes, you can get the answer to clarify.
But people don't do that because they want the written record. And so I always say, have the conversation. It only takes you two or three minutes and then write a 10 second bullet pointed email that says, hey, as we discussed bullet point bullet
point, now we've got the written record to cover our ass. But we had a conversation where we were actually listening and we understood each other.
Yeah, definitely.
In aviation, we, it's very important to listen to get together information and it must be correct. So not only the information that you're giving, but it must be received and understood.
So one of the techniques we use is it's an acronym, like everything in aviation, NITS, which is nature, intent, time and special circumstances.
So when we give information, we say it in that order, order, sorry. And then to ensure that we have given the message correctly and it has been understood correctly.
We then get the person to say it back to us. So repeat it back to confirm that they've understood it as you intended. Absolutely. So we're then listening that it is correct back.
So we're not listening to change or anything, just to confirm that that information. And one of the techniques we use so that we can also remember rather than, because it's a high stress situation usually is that we picture it.
So it's easy to like with professional speaking, et cetera, giving storytelling, having that picture in your mind, same with giving information.
And when you listen, seeing that information as a picture helps you understand.
So are you taught to do that as a pilot? Yeah. To listen with your eyes where you're picturing what they say.
Absolutely. Because it also gets rid of some bias, expectation bias that we might have. So if you hear a bang or smell smoke, immediately you think of what it could be.
So rather than doing that and it comes back different information, we then do the picture based on what they're saying.
I like it. And obviously that's so important up at however many feet that you fly. I keep forgetting the height. What's the altitude? Typical flight? 40,000 feet. Yeah, 40,000 feet in a big tin can.
I think it's very important that your communication is accurate. And so listening is an important skill.
It's funny though, down on the ground where I guess that you're not having all of these people's lives in your hands, that people don't pay as much attention to what people are saying.
Because they don't have that risk sitting in the background, I guess. Yeah. But also we're trained to do that. So it just requires a little bit of discipline to do it in every day.
It does just require discipline, doesn't it?
Have you ever been in a conversation with somebody that just keeps going around and around and around and the other person keeps repeating themselves?
Yes. So you've had an argument with somebody. And then they're not just saying it again, they're saying it again louder.
Because obviously that's going to make you hear it. It's like playing Pictionary. Have you ever played Pictionary? Yes.
You draw a picture, the person doesn't guess it, so you draw it darker. So you just keep going back over the lines and they still don't guess it.
And so you underline it, you put a line underneath the page that you're drawing on and then they still don't get it.
And so you start to hit the paper with a pen as if to say, look at where I'm drawing. It's funny.
I used to go overseas a lot with sport and we were in Germany once and a fellow athlete walked up to a local German and said,
excuse me, mate, where's the So and So Hotel? And the bloke just looked it in. So he raised his voice, excuse me, where's the...
Yeah, good, mate. English louder becomes German.
You raise your voice when you don't think you're being understood or you repeat yourself rather than changing your message.
That's yeah, rather than repeating, you should reframe or rephrase.
But we repeat ourselves and we get louder because we're getting frustrated.
Well, we have the understanding in our mind of what we're saying.
And they should.
That's it.
Yeah, because when you don't feel understood, you get really frustrated, don't you?
Mm.
It triggers the stress response. And I believe it's because as we evolved, we developed the art of language so that we could work together
as a species to survive out there with all the big, dangerous animals. We're not big and dangerous like they are.
So we needed to develop language and our language allowed us to work together so that we could survive as a species.
And so when people don't understand you, I think it triggers the stress response because we know deep down inside, we need to be able to communicate with people.
Because have you ever had a situation where you're trying to explain something and somebody doesn't understand you and you get so frustrated, you've gone into a fight or flight response?
I've noticed kids get frustrated if they don't understand what you're saying, so what they're hearing.
But again, it's just a skill that needs to be developed.
It is. It is. When you think about it, they just don't understand your message, but your body's going into a stressed state.
Your body's releasing adrenocorticotropic hormone and then you start becoming irrational because the executive functioning part of your brain shuts down.
And it's simply because somebody doesn't understand you. You're not in danger from a lion or a tiger.
Somebody didn't understand a sentence you said. And yet we get really, really frustrated.
But it's such an important skill because if you...
One of the things I like to talk about is that if you listen intently to somebody else and then you prove to them that you've heard them, it triggers the reciprocation response.
Have we spoken about the reciprocation response in the past?
So it's basically where if I do something for you, if I do you a favor, I help you out, it triggers a reciprocation response in you where you now want to help me out.
You want to give something in return. As humans, we learnt that if we reciprocate, if we give back, then that's how we get along.
That's how we can work together. If we're all purely selfish, we couldn't work together.
So the reciprocation response is innate in humans.
And when I listen to you and I show you that I've really listened to you, it's going to trigger your reciprocations response and you're more likely to now listen back.
Yeah, you'll pay the same respect. You'll sit there and you'll...
Some people, unless they're a bit narcissistic or sociopathic, they won't necessarily do it in return.
But it's such an important skill because when you've shown that you've listened to somebody else, they'll then listen to you.
Yeah, I can't recall who it was that we were speaking about, but there was somebody who you, in the Australian Institute of Sport, they remembered your name and details about you.
John Bultby. He was the director of the Australian Sports Commission.
And I remember the first day I met him, I'm walking out of the sports science building where I worked on the help desk.
And I was rushing off to help somebody and I had the mobile phone with me, the help desk phone, and John Bultby was on his first day.
And somebody was escorting him around, showing him the buildings, etc.
And obviously introducing him to people. And as I'm running out of the building and I was on a bit of a trot, this person said, hey, guy, this is John.
He's the new CEO, managing director, I guess, or CEO. I'm not sure what his actual title was, but he was in charge of the Sports Commission.
And I said, hi, John, nice to meet you. And he said, guy, what do you do? I said, I'm on the help desk and I'm just running off to help someone.
Anyway, lovely to meet you, John. And I ran off. And the very next day, John was walking past, he said, good day, guy, how's the help desk going?
And he remembered everyone on that first day. And he was the sort of person that when you spoke, he really listened and he made you feel validated, made you feel special.
And I remember that for the rest of my life, that moment where I'm in a rush, I'm rushing past this guy who's being introduced to hundreds of people.
And he remembered me.
Yeah, what a great skill as a leader to be able to make somebody feel special and important just by remembering their name and one detail.
Yeah, that was brilliant.
And the other reason why listening is so important, it gives you more influence.
So if I want to influence your thinking or persuade you of something, what I love saying is that nobody will change their mind.
Nobody will move the needle. I use that term to like you're changing your mind, you're changing your perspective on something.
Nobody changes their mind until they feel as though you understand where they are at the moment first.
So if you listen and prove to somebody that you understand them and they go, yeah, that's right.
And then you say, can I suggest an alternative?
Now they go, yeah, okay, they're open to it because you've shown them and given them the respect of listening to them and proving that you understand it from their perspective.
So not only does it trigger the reciprocation response, it also makes them feel validated and that how they are, the way they think right now is valid.
And so when you invite them to look at something else, they're more likely to want to do it because it's a collaboration.
It's a collaboration.
Rather than you're saying to them, hey, you're wrong, you should think differently. So it helps you influence people.
It helps you learn more when you're a good listener.
You take on more because you're actively seeking out information, which makes you a more intelligent person.
Yeah. Imagine using that also in your personal life.
It would cut down on some of the arguments.
Wouldn't it?
Instead of focusing on trying to get our message across, we're listening.
Being right.
Yeah, we're open and listening to other people's ideas.
It also shows confidence, I think, because if you're always trying to share your knowledge, share your wisdom, rather than seeking out knowledge and seeking out wisdom, that comes from ego.
And that's you wanting to be validated by other people.
But if you're a listener, if you're somebody that really actively listens and pays attention to other people, you're showing true confidence because it doesn't have to be about you.
And you're showing the world that you're prepared and open to take in information from other people and maybe learn from other people.
Well, that's the added bonus that you may actually learn something by listening.
That's it. And then you become like a truly confident person rather than somebody who's always trying to push their ideas onto other people or not really open to listening.
It actually reminds me of a term that came to mind years ago called narcissistic listening.
What's narcissistic listening?
It doesn't sound very nice.
So, okay, I don't mind sharing that I've got somebody that lives not far from where I live.
And every time you have a conversation with this particular person, that will tell you all of their stories and their experiences and their life and all this sort of stuff.
And at first, they seem like quite a genial sort of person.
And then as soon as you start talking, as soon as you start responding about something that they've maybe said, they immediately turn their head away.
Or if you're at a function or a party, which I have been with this particular person, they walk away.
And it happens every time.
And it's got to a point now where quite a few of us who know that person, we kind of laugh about it behind them.
I guess it is in a bit of an insulting way that we're laughing about them because they just show no regard for anyone.
So not just like eyes glazing over when you start to speak, they actively walk away.
Or they turn their head as if to say, yeah, I want to listen.
And I guarantee you, they're not even aware of it.
It is such a...
Yeah.
And so it's, I call it narcissistic listening.
It's essentially where you might be speaking to somebody who has 95% of the airwaves, a little bit like what I'm doing now.
I think I've spoken a lot more than you have, but it's where somebody's had 95% of the airwaves.
And then the 5% when you're talking, they're just waiting for their opportunity to get back onto the airwaves.
Have you met those people?
Yes.
A couple of people come to mind.
Yeah.
And it just doesn't make you feel like you want to spend any time with them.
No.
Yeah. They're not warm people.
They're not the sort of person that you want to engage with because when you're talking, they're just thinking about how do they take over the airwaves.
I know that there's a thought that with active listening, you need to maintain eye contact and concentrate on what they're saying.
However, I know that with my young son, for example, if I did that, if I looked at him, I'd freak him out.
While you're listening?
While I'm listening.
Okay.
So that would freak him out.
Whereas if we are walking or sitting next to each other, he's more likely to listen to me or to speak to me and I can listen to him.
I've read about this and this can get you into a lot of trouble, but there seems to be a difference between young boys and young girls when it comes to listening.
So girls, young girls, and again, I am generalizing and just quoting statistics that I've read that young girls prefer eye contact.
They like that you're looking at them while they're talking.
But young boys tend to open up if you sit side by side with them, if you walk side by side with them.
My gut instinct about this, a theory, I guess, is that when you stand square on to another human being, that's the most confronting you can be.
When you make eye contact with another human being, you know, that can, well, when you are confronting somebody, you do that.
You go square on and you make strong eye contact with your eyes wide open.
And I'm guessing the young boys see that as a biological threat.
Yeah.
I do notice that my young son, who's 10.
We have fantastic chats when we're sitting down side by side, lying down on his bed when we're reading a book at night and he just opens up.
And when we're walking, he opens up, but face to face, it's.
It is confrontational, isn't it?
Yeah.
So that, sorry, that was just one thing that I'd noticed because again, they, the recommendation is that you maintain eye contact when you're speaking to somebody to show that you're listening.
But and with adults that I've spoken to, that works.
Oh, absolutely.
In the flight deck, for example, though, that wasn't always practical because you're looking at instruments or out the window and, you know, communicating.
We have headsets, so therefore you could hear very clearly.
But again, that's a technique that was appropriate for that circumstance.
Yeah.
Cause you're both sitting facing forward and flying a big aeroplane.
Yeah.
But so kids, yeah, it's sometimes it's better to listen while you're not looking at them and they feel safe.
But you're right adults, if you are talking to somebody and they're looking away.
Yeah.
You don't feel like they're listening.
Correct.
Yeah.
And did you know that when you're actually talking, you look away?
Do you know why you look away?
Well, you're either remembering or creating.
Yeah, that's true.
That's one of the reasons why we look away.
But the other reason why we look away when we're talking is to make the listener feel comfortable.
Cause if you talk and don't break eye contact while you're talking, so you're the talker and you don't break eye contact, it comes across as very intimidating.
Yes.
But we look away not just to remember things or create things like you said, but we also look away to make the other person feel comfortable.
So next time you have a conversation with somebody, just notice that when you're talking, you'll have an instinct.
Hopefully you'll have an instinct to look away because you're looking away to make them feel comfortable.
If you looked dead in their eyes.
Without blinking.
They feel very uncomfortable.
So yeah, we look away to make people feel comfortable when they're listening.
Do you have any other techniques or little tips as far as active listening?
I mentioned nits that we use and creating the image or the picture in your mind of what the person is saying.
So not only is it a good memory tool, which we discussed how to improve your memory and utilize your memory, but it also gives you a perspective.
Even though everyone's perspective is different based on their experience, but it's also important to have a good memory tool.
And their experiences, at least it's a perspective, that image.
Yeah, that's the listening skill that we do in the training where I say you don't listen with your ears because we've got a one to three second echoic memory.
You forget sounds within three seconds.
That's why you can shake somebody's hand and forget their name within three seconds.
But we all have perfect visual memories, not photographic, not idetic memory.
I can't pronounce it today.
We have perfect visual memory, which means that when we see something and then we see it again, we can recognize that we've seen it before.
And so I teach visual listening.
So while someone's talking, picture what they're saying like a movie in your mind.
And for example, one technique, just it's a very quick technique.
If you want to remember somebody's name, I'd normally say turn their name into a picture and then attach that picture to the person to remember people's names.
But another technique, just put a name tag on the person and see yourself writing their name on the name tag.
Just the act of writing their name on a name tag while they're talking to you helps you then stick the name to the person.
But then when they're talking, visualize what they're saying like a movie.
So imagine you're sitting in the cinema and you're hearing what they're saying, but you're turning into a movie that you create in your mind and you're just watching the movie.
The other thing you need to do is turn the little voice off upstairs.
The voice is always talking. Oh, I'm not going to remember that.
Oh, I know somebody. Yeah.
It's where it's where you're narrating internally.
Yes.
You just need to turn that voice off and pay attention to the movie and get inquisitive.
So what do you think about prompts when you're listening?
So if somebody is saying something, something, something, something, something, we're back in the country.
I don't even know what that accent was.
Our listeners will know by now I can't hold an accent or create one intentionally.
Anyway, some sort of accent comes out.
When somebody is speaking and you are listening and you do that.
Yeah.
Extroverts do that.
Extroverts make more noise when they're listening than introverts.
Are they still listening when they do that?
Some are, some aren't.
It depends if they're a narcissistic listener or a good listener.
And do you think the person who is speaking is distracted by that?
Can be.
Yeah, I immediately think of somebody say he was a very big, handsome, extroverted, warm,
friendly person I used to work with many years ago.
Lovely man.
And when you spoke, he listened like this.
Mm hmm.
Yep.
Uh huh.
Yeah.
Uh huh.
Became so distracted.
And one day I said to him, mate, do you know if you're an extrovert or an introvert?
And he said, what's that?
I explained to him the difference between the two.
And he said, oh, I think I'm an extrovert.
I said, you are, mate.
You always seem to be getting energy when you're interacting with other people.
But do you know how you listen?
And he went, what?
I said, do you know how you listen?
And he said, what do you mean?
I said, well, when I'm talking, this is what you do.
Mm hmm.
Yep.
Uh huh.
Yeah.
Uh huh.
And I said, just to let you know, if you were doing that to an introvert, it might feel
as though you're saying, uh huh, I get it.
Yep.
Stop talking so I can talk.
But I know you and I know that you're actually listening.
So just be a little bit careful when you're working or talking with introverts that they
don't feel as though you're saying, hey, please shut down.
But I guarantee you, the extroverts that you're talking to, they're going, oh, he's really
here.
He's engaged, which you are.
And I said to him, yeah, so just maybe learn to adjust.
When you're talking to an introvert, maybe the occasional, mm hmm, oh, yep.
But when you're with your extroverted mates, go help them out with your ahas.
Got it.
Yeah.
So it, we all need to show some sort of body language cue or verbal cue that we're listening.
And so, yep.
Or a nod of the head or-
Definitely on the phone.
Yeah.
You're nodding your little nods of the head and a smile.
Yeah.
So on the phone, if it's voice only-
Oh, you've got to make the sound.
Yeah.
Otherwise it sounds like you've hung up or you've gone somewhere else.
Yeah.
But face to face or person to person, look at the body language, see whether they're
uncomfortable with maintaining direct eye contact and maybe shift your body just slightly
off angle so that it's opens up the, a bit more comfortable.
Absolutely.
And so they can communicate themselves and you can then listen and to actively listen,
turn what they're saying into a picture in any image or a movie in your mind so that
you can see it possibly not the same perspective, but a perspective and then you can clarify.
That's it.
So asking them, did you mean this or I see where you're going with this?
Is it like this?
Et cetera.
Good.
That clarification that, that seeking to understand, did I understand you, Michelle,
before I'm then going to respond to it?
Well, that's right.
And then the person who's been saying it feels it like they're being understood and
heard, potentially giving you more information or open to an alternative like you suggested.
That's it.
Yeah.
One thing you said just before about the body language, I've shown that if you turn your
body slightly and so you've got angles when you're talking to somebody, it makes them
feel comfortable going back to similar to what we're saying with young boys.
If you square up on them, their brains kind of think, oh, I'm in danger here.
But if you're at an angle or even side by side, their brains go like, I'm safe and I
can now listen.
Same with humans, adults, I should say that when we, when we talk to people, and I see
this in the training room all the time when I say, okay, everyone stand up, find a partner
you haven't worked with and have a discussion about what we just learned there.
And I just watch them and they're always standing at a 45 degree angle to each other
because that's how we show an openness.
That's how we show that this is safe, that we're talking about something.
It's not about the person.
It's about the ideas that are in front of us and it's how you make people feel safe
and, and also comfortable.
I'm going to now actively monitor how I listen, making sure that not only in the air, but
I do it personally.
I think that's a great idea.
And Michelle, from my experience, you're a very good listener.
Thank you guys.
Yes.
Well, so how do we wrap this up?
More dogs.
Absolutely.
And thank you to Bollinger or at least for creating a champagne because we've been
getting bottles of Bollinger, not from Bollinger.
Yeah, no, not from Bollinger.
Bollinger still hasn't reached out to sponsors, but we have been gifted.
Bollinger, how is this?
I know.
Yesterday after the keynote, they were so impressed with you.
They gave you a gift and a big thank you.
And they've listened to the podcast.
Or they've been hypnotized by the podcast.
Subliminal messaging.
Not so subliminal.
Yeah, Bose still hasn't reached out.
No.
No, no.
We think the world will be a better place with more dogs.
We, we've got our t-shirts, our merch, our hats and our t-shirts and a few people have
written lovely, lovely responses when they've been wearing the t-shirts that people have
walked up to them and open a conversation about dogs.
It's fantastic.
Isn't it?
Yeah.
Every time we wear them, people go, oh yeah, the world would be a better place with more
dogs.
That's right.
Great to see you again, Michelle.
Thanks, Guy.
Okay.
Bye.
Well, that was fun.
That was fun.
You're such a clown.
The clown.
Lady captain.
There you go.
And who's going to listen to this?
Maybe our mums.
Thanks, mum.