1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:07,120 G'day leaders. In this podcast, we got to speak to the wonderful Annie Bryce. Annie is the CEO 2 00:00:07,680 --> 00:00:15,120 of Edge Early Learning and just this week has won the award for most influential child development 3 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:24,080 CEO at the APAC Insider CEO of the Year Awards. We get to talk to Annie about authenticity and 4 00:00:24,080 --> 00:00:32,400 what that means in leadership, how she was able to carve a career by saying yes and seeing nothing 5 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:37,840 as insurmountable. She talks about asking for feedback as a leader and also the importance 6 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:44,160 of communication. Enjoy. Why do it count backwards? Are they? We're now recording. 7 00:00:44,160 --> 00:00:58,960 What? Hello captain. Come fly with me. Let's fly, let's fly. What are we going to talk about? 8 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:03,440 I don't know. So leadership, life and everything else. Yeah. 9 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:12,320 Am I live? No, we're recording. All right, we're recording again. 10 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:24,000 Johnny is today is Annie Bryce, who is the CEO of Edge Early Learning and we have Annie with us 11 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:33,040 tonight because today because I know Annie from Kindicare where I work within the early learning 12 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:42,000 sector and when I first met Annie I was very impressed by her journey from where she started 13 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:49,440 from school to where she is now and just the way that Annie holds herself, conducts business, 14 00:01:49,440 --> 00:02:00,080 empowers those people around her especially women and just she's very relatable but very open about 15 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:06,720 her journey and yeah just a lovely person as well. So welcome Annie. Thank you very much. 16 00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:14,800 So Annie, I know where you started but would you mind telling the people who are listening 17 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:22,400 where you, so you're currently the CEO, how did your journey start? So when I left school, so I 18 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:29,200 was born in the UK and I was at an all girls boarding school from the age of 10 19 00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:34,800 and which I absolutely loved. I had a fantastic time there and made some incredible friends 20 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:44,400 and had amazing experiences as well and after school I took a gap year and I did a secretarial 21 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:49,200 course to start with because I didn't really know what I was going to do except I knew I wanted to 22 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:57,520 go traveling and I earned some money, went off traveling through Indonesia, Hong Kong and Australia 23 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:03,680 and then went back. I had a place at Newcastle University in England to study agribusiness 24 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:12,160 management and marketing which was a joint honours science degree and I spent three years there. 25 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:21,600 What is agribusiness? It's basically the business side of agriculture and it is all about things 26 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:31,920 like diversification and really preparation in agriculture as a business and I had subjects such 27 00:03:31,920 --> 00:03:36,880 as pigs and poultry and crop rotation so some very hands-on agriculture. 28 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:38,880 P&P, pigs and poultry, yes. 29 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:45,760 My first husband I met at university and he was studying agriculture and animal husbandry was one 30 00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:53,920 of his favourites. It was a really varied degree. I had three years there. Marketing was obviously 31 00:03:54,480 --> 00:04:03,600 a big part of it but I came out of that with a 2-1 and decided to take another gap year because 32 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:09,920 I wasn't quite sure what I wanted to do. I had hoped that I would go to law school and my oldest 33 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:17,840 brother was a lawyer at the time and I aspired to be like him, I suppose. I have two brothers. 34 00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:26,640 Both of them have been incredible influences on my life and I decided to do law but it gave me the 35 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:34,080 opportunity to take a second gap year which not many people get to do. I managed to get myself a 36 00:04:34,080 --> 00:04:43,120 role at a law firm in Sydney so I set off from England and worked as a paralegal. 37 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:47,920 What does your family think about you leaving to come to Sydney or Australia? 38 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:55,200 I think they were a little bit shocked at first. I think they were concerned that I didn't have a 39 00:04:55,200 --> 00:05:02,000 job and didn't have anywhere to live but I did have a job and I couldn't get a job. I was very 40 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:05,600 worried about where to live but I did have a job and I quickly found somewhere to live. 41 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:07,120 Was it Bondi? 42 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:08,480 No, it was Balgala. 43 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:11,840 You're a poshpom. 44 00:05:11,840 --> 00:05:18,960 Yeah, well. It was great. I didn't know anyone there. I lived with two Australian girls and 45 00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:27,600 really lived the Aussie Sydney life and worked there and came back to England to start law 46 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:34,320 school in London. I was two years at law school and then got a job at a law firm in Westminster 47 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:41,360 where I did four rotations, commercial property, ecclesiastical law. 48 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:53,680 It was a very specialist part of the law that because of the firm that I was at at Westminster, 49 00:05:53,680 --> 00:06:02,880 they had an office underneath Westminster Abbey and ecclesiastical law covers all sorts of religious 50 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:12,160 laws. Not something I'm particularly involved in but it was an extreme religion. The diocese are 51 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:18,720 huge commercial property owners and so that was a great introduction to commercial property for me 52 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:29,600 actually. After that time, I met my now husband Paul and we moved out of London and lived in 53 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:41,280 Essex and I worked in a firm for, well, not for but with a fantastic, most inspirational woman 54 00:06:41,280 --> 00:06:50,160 I've probably ever met called Susan Masters. She was the only female partner in the firm and she 55 00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:58,400 really took me under her wing and was a very impressive individual. She's passed away now but 56 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:04,000 I very much look back at the time I spent with her as a very formative time for me. 57 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:10,880 So what qualities did she have that you looked up to? 58 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:22,160 She had an absolute sense of authenticity in a very male-dominated environment. We were doing 59 00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:30,960 commercial property law and some agricultural real estate and she was known to be quite a powerful 60 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:41,440 woman but in her behaviours and her interactions with people, I'd say there was nothing overly overpowering 61 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:51,360 in her behaviours. She was firm and assertive but encouraging and made you want to be in her company. 62 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:57,520 One of the definitions that we use for assertiveness is that you say what you mean but 63 00:07:57,520 --> 00:08:05,360 you don't say it mean. So you're saying directly what you want to get across but you're doing it without any 64 00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:11,920 sort of emotional background. Is that a similar definition that you use for assertiveness? 65 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:12,400 Yeah. 66 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:15,440 So she was direct, you knew where she stood at all times? 67 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:18,560 Absolutely, yeah. But it didn't make you uncomfortable. 68 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:25,360 There was another female partner in the firm that I had to share a room with her, an office with her 69 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:33,760 because I was a sort of a third year post-graduation lawyer and it terrified me being in the room with 70 00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:41,200 her because she was listening to my every call I made on the phone. She was intimidating whereas 71 00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:45,440 the time I spent with Susan, she was like, don't sit in my room, I don't need to keep an eye on you. 72 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:48,240 So Susan was senior to this other woman? 73 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:49,840 No, they were the same level. 74 00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:51,040 Same level, yeah. 75 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:52,800 But Susan gave you autonomy? 76 00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:53,680 Absolutely, yeah. 77 00:08:53,680 --> 00:08:54,400 Yeah. 78 00:08:54,400 --> 00:09:00,880 Well we had a similar story of Michelle's when she used to fly with a particular 79 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:06,080 captain who would hover his hand over her hand on the controls. 80 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:14,960 We called him Sam, small angry man. And everyone knew that it was because he didn't trust his own 81 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:21,760 ability. You could see he wasn't secure in his own, like being able to take over if required. 82 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:29,840 Whereas other people who were more secure gave you more room and gave you the ability to maybe 83 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:36,720 make small mistakes or to fill your way and they would give you a little bit of advice or offer ups 84 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:43,520 and maybe try this, maybe do that. Always there to take over if required. But yeah, the ones that 85 00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:48,240 hovered, micromanaged where no one wanted to fly with or work with. 86 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:58,160 Yeah, well that's the exact, I suppose, description of Susan in terms of gave me the space to find my 87 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:03,520 feet because I have to say as soon as you come out of law school, you're not really quite a lawyer. 88 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:11,760 You really do need to have the experience to and find your way. And she absolutely gave me that 89 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:21,920 opportunity. And yeah, I'm very grateful for that. At about the time that, well, we decide, Paul and 90 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:27,520 I decided that we would move out to Australia. It was initially only for two years just to see if we 91 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:33,520 liked living here. And I knew that we would in Paul's Australian. So it was probably a foregone 92 00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:40,480 conclusion that we would spend the rest of our lives here. But I applied to Minter Ellison and 93 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:49,920 got a job at Minters in Melbourne. And we moved out here 17 years ago. And yes, I worked in private 94 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:54,480 practice in a large firm, which was different to what I had experienced. I'd always been in smaller 95 00:10:54,480 --> 00:11:04,240 firms previously. And for me, I definitely am somebody that I think I feel that I need to make 96 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:09,920 the decision sort of early on if I'm not feeling comfortable with something. It's not that I wasn't 97 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:15,200 comfortable at Minters. It was that I think I could thrive in a different environment. So I decided 98 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:23,760 to go in-house. And that was an opportunity that was afforded to me by a guy called Mark Evans and 99 00:11:23,760 --> 00:11:30,160 another colleague, Chris Chambers. And they were running a company called Dental Corporation. And 100 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:37,200 I became the in-house lawyer there. So having done commercial property for most of my career, 101 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:42,960 I quite quickly had to become more of a generalist and work more in the commercial side of law and 102 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:48,640 mergers and acquisitions. So that was a really great experience. Again, at times I felt out of 103 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:57,200 depth, but with really supportive people around me and an openness to asking questions when I felt 104 00:11:57,200 --> 00:12:06,320 that I needed to. Soon after, well, seven years there, felt very comfortable really working on 105 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:10,960 working on more of the commercial side, not necessarily in the legal side of things. So 106 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:14,960 yeah, it was a great stepping stone to what I've moved on to since. 107 00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:23,920 We talk about psychological safety and that ability to be able to put your hand up and go, 108 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:30,560 not sure what to do here or haven't seen this before, ask for help or admit that 109 00:12:30,560 --> 00:12:37,920 you don't quite know, but you'll find a way. Is that the thing that you felt or was there? 110 00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:47,280 Absolutely. I think with everything I've probably done or tried to do in my life so far, 111 00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:54,000 I think one thing that I've held very true to is be open and honest with myself about whether it's 112 00:12:54,000 --> 00:13:00,880 within my current capabilities and also with others around me to ask questions to really 113 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:07,440 be honest and say, I haven't done this before, but I want to give it a go. And so that 114 00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:15,280 inquisitiveness, which I think I bring to most things, I think helps in finding a path through 115 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:23,840 what may be a potential obstacle or problem if you are open-minded and open-hearted enough to be 116 00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:30,240 honest with yourself and others around you. It sounds like throughout your career, and this is me 117 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:39,040 casting an aspersion, I guess, is that you had the tenacity to say yes to everything that's coming 118 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:46,640 away and then have the confidence to feel like you'll find a way to make it happen. Is that a pair? 119 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:55,920 Aspersion? Yeah, I think it is actually. I think my parents have always taught me and my brothers 120 00:13:55,920 --> 00:14:02,400 have always demonstrated that to take opportunities when they're offered to you, not only that, 121 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:11,920 but to seek out opportunities as well. I'm not a shrinking violet in terms of sitting and waiting 122 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:18,960 for things to happen. I do try and take opportunities to study and I was offered the opportunity to do 123 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:26,880 an MBA, which I loved, and that I probably apply to every aspect of my life. The things that I 124 00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:32,640 learned during that course, I apply to every aspect of my personal and professional life. 125 00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:38,960 But yeah, so through moving from Minters and going into Dental Corporation and then having the 126 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:46,720 opportunity to be the founding CEO of Edge Early Learning has been an incredible opportunity that 127 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:55,040 had I said no to any of those opportunities, I'm not quite sure what I'd be doing now, to be honest. 128 00:14:55,040 --> 00:15:01,920 Yeah. It's a path that I hadn't planned, but it's a path that I've thoroughly enjoyed being upon. 129 00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:05,200 So say yes until you get to the ultimate destination? 130 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:08,240 Yes. Nice, I like it. I like it. Okay. 131 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:20,080 You were telling us that you took a while to do your MBA, but you were actually working at the time. 132 00:15:20,080 --> 00:15:25,840 Yes. So you could apply it to real life situations and the learning was 133 00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:29,920 relatable rather than just an academic to pass a test? 134 00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:37,040 Absolutely. I would say that my MBA, because of the time in my life that I did it, where I was in a 135 00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:46,400 very busy job and working very hard and learning all the time, not only in the role but learning 136 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:53,440 the academic side of the subjects that I chose in the MBA. Also had my son during that time, 137 00:15:53,440 --> 00:16:02,560 so I was learning to be a mother at the same time as well. And yeah, it was just the fact that 138 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:09,360 I could relate to the topics I was learning about. It's the most studious I've ever been. 139 00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:15,040 Like I've never really actively applied myself academically during school. I played a lot of 140 00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:21,600 sport and probably socialized a bit too much at university and law school. But my MBA, I absolutely 141 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:28,960 couldn't get enough of because I could understand and appreciate what it meant in the real world 142 00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:34,400 rather than academic theory that I might have learned at law school. 143 00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:38,400 Can I ask you a question about that whole socializing during your university days? 144 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:38,900 Yes. 145 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:44,160 I've got a strong feeling that that's where we learn our emotional intelligence. 146 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:45,200 Right. 147 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:50,240 I think when you're out there at the pub, at the bar, at the uni bar and you're negotiating 148 00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:52,640 with somebody on whatever it is. 149 00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:53,440 We're the... 150 00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:54,720 What are you negotiating? 151 00:16:54,720 --> 00:17:01,360 No, okay, look. What I'm implying is that it's those outside the academia... 152 00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:03,120 Academia? 153 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:08,720 Academia, thank you very much. The academia activities where you learn the life skills, 154 00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:14,480 the social skills, the sociology, the aspects of human nature that are going to stand you 155 00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:20,240 in good stead when you end up in a CEO role. Would you like to comment on that? 156 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:28,240 Yes, I'd 100% agree with you that that is definitely... Yeah, it's... Well, I personally 157 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:34,720 think that that's an immensely important part of shaping us as individuals if we want to be 158 00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:42,640 shaped. But yeah, I've made masses of friends, close connections, people that I'm in contact 159 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:49,200 with now, essentially through work contacts and all sorts of things. But yeah, I definitely wasn't 160 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:56,320 necessarily in my lectures on time every day. Being the studious one, I was probably more 161 00:17:56,880 --> 00:18:01,200 the one that was more playing on the social side. 162 00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:08,000 Yeah, well, I firmly believe that the skills that you develop in your social life translate 163 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:09,600 to being an effective leader. 164 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:19,680 What would you say is the most important or one of the most important character traits of a leader? 165 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:22,800 Something that would make you the sort of person other people would be inspired to follow? 166 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:34,560 For me, it's authenticity. It's being real and genuine. I think for me, I do find it difficult 167 00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:42,800 to follow somebody that I don't necessarily trust. And if I think back of all the people that have 168 00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:51,120 been leaders in my career in the past, there's certainly some that I've learned how I wouldn't 169 00:18:51,120 --> 00:18:58,800 like to be. And that's also really helpful because it really does shape how you would like to, 170 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:04,000 or how I personally would like to be as a leader. But yeah, authenticity and honesty, 171 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:08,240 I think are two really important traits that stand out for me. 172 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:13,440 So authentic in that you know who they are. They're not going to be turning up a different 173 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:14,640 person on a different day. 174 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:16,560 They walk the walk, not just the talks. 175 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:25,360 Absolutely. Yeah. That, you know, there's a sense of perhaps volatility or vulnerability that people, 176 00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:32,240 that everybody has, I think. We'd be naive to think that there's not anyone in the world that 177 00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:36,720 doesn't have some chink of volatility. And I don't think it's a bad thing to show that. 178 00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:43,360 And I think to understand the needs of the people that you're leading or that you may be leading in 179 00:19:43,360 --> 00:19:50,800 the future, not necessarily that that shapes how I lead. I don't consciously try to sort of think 180 00:19:50,800 --> 00:20:00,720 how I, who I may lead in the future. I think it's a natural ability, I hope, that I try to come 181 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:05,200 across as who I am in my day-to-day life professionally and personally. Yeah. 182 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:10,400 So you're not out there as an avatar, you're authentic self. 183 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:14,000 Yep. 184 00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:22,480 Do you have any mentors or people that you can trust with or ask for advice or lean on or 185 00:20:23,120 --> 00:20:29,440 have a cry to or a bit of a moan to when, you know, because you're the CEO, you're at the top. 186 00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:33,120 So who do you lean on or who do you rely on? 187 00:20:33,120 --> 00:20:41,680 So I'm very lucky to have several people and groups of people. As part of my role at Edge, 188 00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:49,760 I was given the opportunity to take part in the Commonwealth Women in Business Conference, many, 189 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:57,520 well, about five years ago. And through that, I've made some fantastic friends and connections 190 00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:03,760 with like-minded business women. All have varied experiences, some extremely experienced in business 191 00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:10,480 and some of the rest of us less so. And we've kept in contact over the last five years. And 192 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:17,120 that is a great support network for all of us to call on one another when we need to. And I would 193 00:21:17,120 --> 00:21:24,640 always say to anybody that is new in a leadership role that having somebody to talk to is very 194 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:30,960 important. There's an old adage that it's lonely at the top and it's quite true sometimes. And so, 195 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:38,400 yeah, having a supportive network around you is very, very helpful, but comforting as well. 196 00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:46,080 Who's the leader that you've, you don't have to name names, but have you had a leader 197 00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:50,000 that you've admired in the past and what have you learned from them? 198 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:54,640 Or somebody that's led me personally, or do you mean somebody on a- 199 00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:56,640 Or even somebody that's influenced you. 200 00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:07,120 I have to say Susan, the first female partner that I worked for as a young lawyer. She was immensely 201 00:22:07,120 --> 00:22:15,040 influential on my confidence, I have to say, on my levels of feeling that I could feel free to 202 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:23,040 bring my opinion to a table and openly talk to clients and really understand what clients need. 203 00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:28,880 And I think that's probably one thing that if I did anything well as a lawyer, it would probably 204 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:35,680 be to really understand the needs of my client rather than from the aspect of the law firm 205 00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:42,960 that I was necessarily working for, which is why I think I preferred in-house work more so, because 206 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:45,920 Because you weren't having to charge per hour. 207 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:54,560 Yeah, and I was part of the client itself. So yeah, Susan was an incredible inspiration to me. 208 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:59,200 What's a mistake that leaders should avoid? 209 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:09,040 That's a good question. I think sometimes leaders 210 00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:15,600 feel that they need to talk too much. I think there's sometimes a feeling that 211 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:22,400 because you're a leader, you need to fill the silences or take the lead verbally and 212 00:23:23,120 --> 00:23:29,280 physically in terms of commanding a room. I'm very different to that. I'm probably quieter in meetings 213 00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:38,800 than many others. In fact, actually, I remember I was in a steering committee meeting with the CEO of 214 00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:45,280 a big global health fund. And he turned to me and said, Annie, you're not saying anything. Why aren't 215 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:52,320 you contributing? And I said, I am contributing. Actually, I'm listening. And he said, oh, all 216 00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:59,280 right. And I thought, yeah, my contribution actually is listening to this because it didn't need me to 217 00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:05,840 say anything at the time. But it was that presumption that he's had that we all needed to be saying 218 00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:13,920 something. And actually, I think there's certain times I think, probably one thing that some people 219 00:24:15,120 --> 00:24:20,000 make mistake on is not thinking before they speak. And I think that's probably 220 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:27,840 an important trait to be cognizant of as a leader, to really think before you speak and to understand 221 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:35,520 the needs of the person you're speaking to and really get to so that you understand the message 222 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:41,920 coming to you and so that you can then deliver a suitable and appropriate message back. 223 00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:47,440 I love that, Annie. I love that. One of my favorite authors, Stephen Covey, 224 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:55,440 he wrote The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. And it's still one of my favorite quotes 225 00:24:55,440 --> 00:25:02,640 of all time, seek first to understand, then to be understood. I've heard it also said as two ears, 226 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:07,440 one mouth, that order, that proportion. Yeah, that's good. 227 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:13,440 Yeah, I love the way you describe that. I'm thinking of a quote where it's, isn't it there, 228 00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:18,240 and I can't think of the quote exactly, but it's something about where if you speak, 229 00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:26,320 like the idiot talks and the one who listens doesn't, or a fool, no one knows a fool if they 230 00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:32,320 just, if they're quiet, but if, you know, a bit like I'm doing now. I don't know the quote. 231 00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:37,920 We'll find the quote and we'll put it in the show notes. We'll put it in the show notes. But 232 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:44,320 yeah, no, and I love the energy that you were giving across when you were actually saying that. 233 00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:52,880 It made me feel like that's a skill to be reckoned with, that when you're sitting there 234 00:25:52,880 --> 00:26:00,240 really listening and paying attention, you're more powerful than the person who is speaking 235 00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:07,840 because you're showing consideration of other people's opinions. And I think that's a good 236 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:13,360 thing. You're open, which shows a sense of confidence and that you're willing to hear 237 00:26:13,360 --> 00:26:17,360 other people's opinions. It doesn't always have to be about your opinion. Absolutely. 238 00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:24,960 Well, I've seen, I've noticed that with your team, what I know of your team is that they feel heard. 239 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:30,640 So anyone who does feel heard wants to contribute because they feel like they've got skin in the 240 00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:39,840 game. They're part of the solution. And that I know from your team, what I've seen is exactly 241 00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:46,640 what happens. You know, people give more if they feel they're valued. Yeah, brilliant. Yeah, I agree 242 00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:52,400 with that. So I'm really pleased to hear that. That's your view of having worked with us. Yeah. 243 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:52,900 Yeah. 244 00:26:52,900 --> 00:27:00,900 If you were mentoring a young leader, what's a piece of advice that you could give them? 245 00:27:02,740 --> 00:27:12,740 I think probably be open to adapt and open to change. I think, I don't know this firsthand, 246 00:27:12,740 --> 00:27:20,420 this is me making a, I suppose, not an assumption because I say never assume anything. 247 00:27:20,420 --> 00:27:22,500 Like a generalisation. 248 00:27:22,500 --> 00:27:26,980 Making a generalisation, yeah. That I think people, if they think they're on a particular path, 249 00:27:26,980 --> 00:27:32,260 they have to get there. And there's only one particular way to go. And so they'll go down 250 00:27:32,260 --> 00:27:38,180 a particular route and achieve qualifications and meet the right people and do the right roles. And 251 00:27:38,820 --> 00:27:48,100 I think for, I mean, my own journey so far is probably evidence that you don't necessarily 252 00:27:48,100 --> 00:27:55,620 have to be set on a path and that having an openness to opportunities that may arise, 253 00:27:55,620 --> 00:28:04,100 different learning environments, different opportunities to improve your knowledge of 254 00:28:04,100 --> 00:28:10,260 a particular area or yeah, don't, if I think if you think you're on one path, don't discount any 255 00:28:10,260 --> 00:28:15,220 others. I think that's probably one thing I would say in that. And also if it doesn't feel right, 256 00:28:15,220 --> 00:28:20,020 don't keep pursuing it because there's always a different path around obstacles. 257 00:28:20,020 --> 00:28:29,700 So our tagline is life leadership and everything else. So we've really limited ourselves. And 258 00:28:32,500 --> 00:28:39,060 if I can ask you for some life advice, so not just about leadership, but what have you learned in 259 00:28:39,060 --> 00:28:45,220 your life that you could offer to anyone as life advice? That nothing is insurmountable. 260 00:28:47,780 --> 00:28:55,540 I say that because when I, and I say this to friends and the team regularly is that 261 00:28:55,540 --> 00:29:02,580 when you think something is going really badly or feels like there's no way out of a particular 262 00:29:02,580 --> 00:29:12,420 scenario at the time, it is overwhelming and it feels like it's something that you can't overcome. 263 00:29:13,700 --> 00:29:19,460 Then when you look back and I can do that so far and I can look back and everything that I've 264 00:29:20,180 --> 00:29:25,700 thought was insurmountable at the time, I've actually been able to get through. And that 265 00:29:25,700 --> 00:29:32,980 may be through assistance on various projects or all sorts of things. But I do think that 266 00:29:33,780 --> 00:29:40,500 having a mindset of nothing is insurmountable is helpful because it makes you think of a 267 00:29:40,500 --> 00:29:45,860 longer term picture. Because if you think of yourself in a moment in time when everything 268 00:29:45,860 --> 00:29:52,180 is feeling like it's a barrier or everything's against you, it's really overwhelming. But then 269 00:29:52,180 --> 00:29:58,180 if you then think back about what you have been able to achieve, however small that those things 270 00:29:58,180 --> 00:30:04,100 are or incrementally you've made achievements and steps towards a goal, if you then reflect back, 271 00:30:04,100 --> 00:30:10,980 you can see that there are things that whilst they seem bad at the time, they're probably things 272 00:30:10,980 --> 00:30:17,300 that you've got the capability or the team around you to overcome. So yeah, that would be my 273 00:30:17,300 --> 00:30:21,300 life advice. I love it. I love it. 274 00:30:24,660 --> 00:30:30,660 One thing I want to touch on is you are sailing. So you're learning to sail, which I am very envious 275 00:30:30,660 --> 00:30:39,300 of. And it's been a bit of a goal of mine for the last five years. So I will be sailing soon 276 00:30:39,300 --> 00:30:48,660 because it's very similar to flying, similar sorts of things. So how long have you been sailing for? 277 00:30:48,660 --> 00:30:49,940 And what have you learned? 278 00:30:51,940 --> 00:30:53,860 To survive, obviously. 279 00:30:53,860 --> 00:31:04,340 Well, I'm a true advocate for getting oneself out of one's comfort zone. And so I have learned a lot 280 00:31:04,340 --> 00:31:10,180 and I've been sailing. I've done a few sort of learn to sail courses over the last couple of years, 281 00:31:10,180 --> 00:31:15,380 but I've actually now recently bit the bullet and bought myself a secondhand boat. 282 00:31:15,380 --> 00:31:17,380 You're a boat owner. 283 00:31:17,380 --> 00:31:25,940 Yes, a small boat owner. And I was inspired by my now eight and a half year old son who started 284 00:31:25,940 --> 00:31:32,260 learning to sail at six. And I'd always sort of quite enjoyed the idea of thinking I might sail, 285 00:31:32,260 --> 00:31:39,220 but never have really given myself the time nor the push to do so. And so watching our son, 286 00:31:39,220 --> 00:31:44,580 Sammy sail, I was thinking, oh, well, if he can do it, I can. But I'm very much getting out of my 287 00:31:44,580 --> 00:31:52,740 comfort zone. I've learned to overcome that sense of, oh, sugar, what's going to happen if this all 288 00:31:52,740 --> 00:31:58,340 goes wrong. And actually, thankfully, I'm sailing in a lake that's only 1.8 meters deep. So I think 289 00:31:58,340 --> 00:31:59,380 too drastic. 290 00:31:59,380 --> 00:32:01,380 You're tall enough to be able to breathe. 291 00:32:01,380 --> 00:32:02,980 Yeah, I can breathe. 292 00:32:02,980 --> 00:32:05,460 And has Sammy sailed your boat? 293 00:32:05,460 --> 00:32:11,300 He hasn't. No, mine's a little bit too big for him, but he sails his own boat. And so he's out 294 00:32:11,300 --> 00:32:18,420 there as a speck on the horizon. So it's really inspired me to take it on. It's a great opportunity 295 00:32:18,420 --> 00:32:25,380 to switch off and concentrate only on what I'm supposed to be doing. And I deliberately bought 296 00:32:25,380 --> 00:32:32,260 a boat that only has one sail, so I don't have a jib and a main sail to deal with. So I've thought 297 00:32:32,260 --> 00:32:39,380 tactically about how to enhance my ability to be able to sail a boat. And yeah, it's something we 298 00:32:39,380 --> 00:32:47,460 all do as a family. And it's a great time to unwind, but also challenge myself. So I'd never 299 00:32:47,460 --> 00:32:48,740 seem to stop challenging myself. 300 00:32:48,740 --> 00:32:57,300 I know a lot of leaders that sail. What is it about sailing? What do you learn from sailing 301 00:32:57,300 --> 00:33:00,180 that seems to be attractive to leaders? 302 00:33:00,180 --> 00:33:07,780 Well, my boat is just a single person. So I'm actually sailing solo. So I'm not leading anybody 303 00:33:07,780 --> 00:33:16,500 but myself. I helm it and it's all up to me if it all goes wrong. Buck stops with me, but I 304 00:33:16,500 --> 00:33:24,580 suppose that happens. So yes, this is all rotating back to what I do in day to day life. 305 00:33:24,580 --> 00:33:28,820 But you were so you were sporty at school. You're still sporty. 306 00:33:29,460 --> 00:33:30,820 I was very sporty at school. 307 00:33:31,860 --> 00:33:32,820 Tennis player? 308 00:33:32,820 --> 00:33:33,460 Tennis. 309 00:33:33,460 --> 00:33:33,780 Oh, yes. 310 00:33:33,780 --> 00:33:34,820 Tennis. 311 00:33:34,820 --> 00:33:40,580 Okay. A budding professional tennis player. 312 00:33:40,580 --> 00:33:41,780 So who was your sponsor? 313 00:33:41,780 --> 00:33:43,060 Wilson. 314 00:33:43,060 --> 00:33:43,620 Wilson. 315 00:33:43,620 --> 00:33:51,620 Yes. But that was when I was very young. And yes, I, they sponsored my, myself and my team. 316 00:33:51,620 --> 00:33:58,740 So yeah, I suppose in terms of leadership, my, I was a leader at a very young age, actually 317 00:33:58,740 --> 00:34:06,340 throughout school. So lots of captain roles, house captain, school captain, school prefect 318 00:34:06,980 --> 00:34:07,700 type. 319 00:34:07,700 --> 00:34:14,100 School captain, school prefect type roles. But then when I went to uni, I didn't have any 320 00:34:14,100 --> 00:34:17,700 leadership responsibility at all. So that's obviously where I was forming my 321 00:34:17,700 --> 00:34:18,420 Building your 322 00:34:18,420 --> 00:34:21,620 My emotional intelligence. I ditched all responsibility. 323 00:34:21,620 --> 00:34:24,020 Get rid of responsibility. Learn about people. 324 00:34:24,020 --> 00:34:29,300 Yeah. Learned about people and then picked up leadership roles again, inadvertently or 325 00:34:30,340 --> 00:34:33,620 But that's a true leader because you didn't necessarily chase it. They were 326 00:34:34,260 --> 00:34:37,380 bestowed upon you or you were invited to. 327 00:34:37,380 --> 00:34:42,100 Yeah, I've been very lucky in terms of opportunity I've been given and invitations to 328 00:34:42,100 --> 00:34:47,620 Would you say it's lucky or that you've said yes to an opportunity that others may not have? 329 00:34:49,860 --> 00:34:51,060 Probably I've said yes. 330 00:34:51,060 --> 00:34:51,780 Yeah. Yeah. 331 00:34:51,780 --> 00:34:52,340 Yeah. 332 00:34:52,340 --> 00:34:52,980 Yeah. 333 00:34:52,980 --> 00:34:59,460 I think that leadership and parenthood are very closely closely related. I think great 334 00:34:59,460 --> 00:35:04,580 leaders make great parents and vice versa. What have you learned about parenting that 335 00:35:04,580 --> 00:35:05,780 you can apply to leadership? 336 00:35:05,780 --> 00:35:07,540 That 337 00:35:07,540 --> 00:35:09,540 Is there time out in leadership? 338 00:35:14,820 --> 00:35:20,420 I have to say one, this is unusual because not many people are lucky enough to say this, 339 00:35:20,420 --> 00:35:24,500 but I one of the best things I've ever done in my entire life is giving birth. 340 00:35:24,500 --> 00:35:30,100 Like it was the most amazing experience. It was empowering. And I when I when something 341 00:35:30,100 --> 00:35:38,660 is challenging me, I think well, look what I did there. And yeah, some I went into some mind over 342 00:35:38,660 --> 00:35:46,580 matter situation and had the most like, yeah, it was an incredible experience. It wasn't fun, 343 00:35:46,580 --> 00:35:51,460 but it was incredible experience that I think is yeah, something that's 344 00:35:52,020 --> 00:35:53,220 Well, it's powerful, isn't it? 345 00:35:53,220 --> 00:36:00,900 Powerful. Yeah. But so yeah, in terms of parenting as a leader and yeah, my parents are great leaders 346 00:36:00,900 --> 00:36:07,620 for me as were my brothers and still are. But I learn so much from Sam every single day. 347 00:36:08,180 --> 00:36:13,140 I listen to him and he gives me feedback regularly. We do a performance review of me as a mum. 348 00:36:13,940 --> 00:36:21,460 And he often tells me that I need to sleep more, go to bed earlier. So I'm trying to 349 00:36:21,460 --> 00:36:23,220 listen to his suggestions. 350 00:36:23,220 --> 00:36:25,220 I like that actually. I'm going to ask my kids. 351 00:36:25,220 --> 00:36:29,620 So you've empowered him to give you performance feedback. 352 00:36:29,620 --> 00:36:30,020 Yeah. 353 00:36:30,020 --> 00:36:30,740 That's fantastic. 354 00:36:30,740 --> 00:36:32,740 Yeah. Started when he could talk. 355 00:36:32,740 --> 00:36:33,220 Yeah. 356 00:36:33,220 --> 00:36:35,220 And said, how am I going? 357 00:36:35,220 --> 00:36:40,020 So you do that organisationally and in your family? 358 00:36:40,020 --> 00:36:45,620 I do it more with the family rather than organisationally actually. I don't ask Paul 359 00:36:45,620 --> 00:36:51,940 the same question. But now I certainly seek feedback from Sam. Yeah. 360 00:36:51,940 --> 00:36:52,420 Yeah. 361 00:36:52,420 --> 00:36:56,500 Oh, that's fantastic. I'm going to start doing that. I like that idea. 362 00:36:56,500 --> 00:37:00,660 Yeah. You learn a lot of negotiation skills, obviously, as being a parent as well. 363 00:37:00,660 --> 00:37:06,580 Yeah. No, but I know my kids would appreciate because I feel like they have psychological 364 00:37:06,580 --> 00:37:12,980 safety at home, but they would appreciate the fact that they could give feedback. 365 00:37:12,980 --> 00:37:18,020 Yeah. Well, that's it. Everyone wants to give feedback or be heard, don't they? And so I think 366 00:37:18,340 --> 00:37:25,700 asking for feedback on how you're going as a parent is probably a really helpful opportunity 367 00:37:25,700 --> 00:37:33,460 to hear feedback. Because people, your own parents give you feedback on how you're parenting. 368 00:37:33,460 --> 00:37:33,940 Oh, yes. 369 00:37:33,940 --> 00:37:42,260 But yeah, hearing it from your own children is really interesting and helps me to think 370 00:37:42,260 --> 00:37:47,140 about how it may help shape the things you're doing and how you're feeling. 371 00:37:51,140 --> 00:37:57,380 If we could ask you one last question, I've been trying to formulate this question throughout the 372 00:37:57,380 --> 00:38:03,860 whole podcast because you've answered so many questions that I already have in advance. But 373 00:38:03,860 --> 00:38:11,060 as the CEO, you're in charge and you've got there through saying yes to many experiences, 374 00:38:11,060 --> 00:38:16,660 to constantly learning, to learning from other people. If you could lay us with one last 375 00:38:17,380 --> 00:38:24,100 leadership message from somebody at the top, wisdom from the peak, what would that be? 376 00:38:24,100 --> 00:38:38,980 Gosh. I think always be honest and always communicate very clearly around what's happening 377 00:38:38,980 --> 00:38:47,540 in the business, if it's a business setting. Because I think if people don't feel that they 378 00:38:47,540 --> 00:38:54,980 know what is going on or what is expected of them, it can be a very uncomfortable or 379 00:38:57,220 --> 00:39:03,300 difficult situation. It's difficult to want to do something in response to a request if you 380 00:39:03,300 --> 00:39:11,060 don't really understand the bigger picture. I think honesty and asking true questions and 381 00:39:11,060 --> 00:39:16,260 telling the truth is probably one of the most important things I think you could do as a leader. 382 00:39:17,700 --> 00:39:22,340 Annie, what a wonderful experience learning from you. Thank you so much for joining us. 383 00:39:22,340 --> 00:39:23,060 Thank you. 384 00:39:23,060 --> 00:39:27,460 We've learned from you and your experience and now our leaders will have too. 385 00:39:27,460 --> 00:39:27,860 Very inspiring. 386 00:39:27,860 --> 00:39:31,060 So I really appreciate the opportunities. 387 00:39:31,060 --> 00:39:31,940 Thank you very much. 388 00:39:31,940 --> 00:39:33,700 Our pleasure. 389 00:39:33,700 --> 00:39:34,260 Thank you. 390 00:39:35,300 --> 00:39:36,340 Well, that was fun. 391 00:39:36,340 --> 00:39:37,060 That was fun. 392 00:39:38,500 --> 00:39:39,620 You're such a clown. 393 00:39:39,620 --> 00:39:40,660 The clown. 394 00:39:40,660 --> 00:39:41,620 Lady captain. 395 00:39:43,140 --> 00:39:46,020 And who's going to listen to this? Maybe our mums. 396 00:39:46,020 --> 00:40:02,820 Thanks, mum.