G'day leaders. In this podcast, we got to speak to the wonderful Annie Bryce. Annie is the CEO
of Edge Early Learning and just this week has won the award for most influential child development
CEO at the APAC Insider CEO of the Year Awards. We get to talk to Annie about authenticity and
what that means in leadership, how she was able to carve a career by saying yes and seeing nothing
as insurmountable. She talks about asking for feedback as a leader and also the importance
of communication. Enjoy. Why do it count backwards? Are they? We're now recording.
What? Hello captain. Come fly with me. Let's fly, let's fly. What are we going to talk about?
I don't know. So leadership, life and everything else. Yeah.
Am I live? No, we're recording. All right, we're recording again.
Johnny is today is Annie Bryce, who is the CEO of Edge Early Learning and we have Annie with us
tonight because today because I know Annie from Kindicare where I work within the early learning
sector and when I first met Annie I was very impressed by her journey from where she started
from school to where she is now and just the way that Annie holds herself, conducts business,
empowers those people around her especially women and just she's very relatable but very open about
her journey and yeah just a lovely person as well. So welcome Annie. Thank you very much.
So Annie, I know where you started but would you mind telling the people who are listening
where you, so you're currently the CEO, how did your journey start? So when I left school, so I
was born in the UK and I was at an all girls boarding school from the age of 10
and which I absolutely loved. I had a fantastic time there and made some incredible friends
and had amazing experiences as well and after school I took a gap year and I did a secretarial
course to start with because I didn't really know what I was going to do except I knew I wanted to
go traveling and I earned some money, went off traveling through Indonesia, Hong Kong and Australia
and then went back. I had a place at Newcastle University in England to study agribusiness
management and marketing which was a joint honours science degree and I spent three years there.
What is agribusiness? It's basically the business side of agriculture and it is all about things
like diversification and really preparation in agriculture as a business and I had subjects such
as pigs and poultry and crop rotation so some very hands-on agriculture.
P&P, pigs and poultry, yes.
My first husband I met at university and he was studying agriculture and animal husbandry was one
of his favourites. It was a really varied degree. I had three years there. Marketing was obviously
a big part of it but I came out of that with a 2-1 and decided to take another gap year because
I wasn't quite sure what I wanted to do. I had hoped that I would go to law school and my oldest
brother was a lawyer at the time and I aspired to be like him, I suppose. I have two brothers.
Both of them have been incredible influences on my life and I decided to do law but it gave me the
opportunity to take a second gap year which not many people get to do. I managed to get myself a
role at a law firm in Sydney so I set off from England and worked as a paralegal.
What does your family think about you leaving to come to Sydney or Australia?
I think they were a little bit shocked at first. I think they were concerned that I didn't have a
job and didn't have anywhere to live but I did have a job and I couldn't get a job. I was very
worried about where to live but I did have a job and I quickly found somewhere to live.
Was it Bondi?
No, it was Balgala.
You're a poshpom.
Yeah, well. It was great. I didn't know anyone there. I lived with two Australian girls and
really lived the Aussie Sydney life and worked there and came back to England to start law
school in London. I was two years at law school and then got a job at a law firm in Westminster
where I did four rotations, commercial property, ecclesiastical law.
It was a very specialist part of the law that because of the firm that I was at at Westminster,
they had an office underneath Westminster Abbey and ecclesiastical law covers all sorts of religious
laws. Not something I'm particularly involved in but it was an extreme religion. The diocese are
huge commercial property owners and so that was a great introduction to commercial property for me
actually. After that time, I met my now husband Paul and we moved out of London and lived in
Essex and I worked in a firm for, well, not for but with a fantastic, most inspirational woman
I've probably ever met called Susan Masters. She was the only female partner in the firm and she
really took me under her wing and was a very impressive individual. She's passed away now but
I very much look back at the time I spent with her as a very formative time for me.
So what qualities did she have that you looked up to?
She had an absolute sense of authenticity in a very male-dominated environment. We were doing
commercial property law and some agricultural real estate and she was known to be quite a powerful
woman but in her behaviours and her interactions with people, I'd say there was nothing overly overpowering
in her behaviours. She was firm and assertive but encouraging and made you want to be in her company.
One of the definitions that we use for assertiveness is that you say what you mean but
you don't say it mean. So you're saying directly what you want to get across but you're doing it without any
sort of emotional background. Is that a similar definition that you use for assertiveness?
Yeah.
So she was direct, you knew where she stood at all times?
Absolutely, yeah. But it didn't make you uncomfortable.
There was another female partner in the firm that I had to share a room with her, an office with her
because I was a sort of a third year post-graduation lawyer and it terrified me being in the room with
her because she was listening to my every call I made on the phone. She was intimidating whereas
the time I spent with Susan, she was like, don't sit in my room, I don't need to keep an eye on you.
So Susan was senior to this other woman?
No, they were the same level.
Same level, yeah.
But Susan gave you autonomy?
Absolutely, yeah.
Yeah.
Well we had a similar story of Michelle's when she used to fly with a particular
captain who would hover his hand over her hand on the controls.
We called him Sam, small angry man. And everyone knew that it was because he didn't trust his own
ability. You could see he wasn't secure in his own, like being able to take over if required.
Whereas other people who were more secure gave you more room and gave you the ability to maybe
make small mistakes or to fill your way and they would give you a little bit of advice or offer ups
and maybe try this, maybe do that. Always there to take over if required. But yeah, the ones that
hovered, micromanaged where no one wanted to fly with or work with.
Yeah, well that's the exact, I suppose, description of Susan in terms of gave me the space to find my
feet because I have to say as soon as you come out of law school, you're not really quite a lawyer.
You really do need to have the experience to and find your way. And she absolutely gave me that
opportunity. And yeah, I'm very grateful for that. At about the time that, well, we decide, Paul and
I decided that we would move out to Australia. It was initially only for two years just to see if we
liked living here. And I knew that we would in Paul's Australian. So it was probably a foregone
conclusion that we would spend the rest of our lives here. But I applied to Minter Ellison and
got a job at Minters in Melbourne. And we moved out here 17 years ago. And yes, I worked in private
practice in a large firm, which was different to what I had experienced. I'd always been in smaller
firms previously. And for me, I definitely am somebody that I think I feel that I need to make
the decision sort of early on if I'm not feeling comfortable with something. It's not that I wasn't
comfortable at Minters. It was that I think I could thrive in a different environment. So I decided
to go in-house. And that was an opportunity that was afforded to me by a guy called Mark Evans and
another colleague, Chris Chambers. And they were running a company called Dental Corporation. And
I became the in-house lawyer there. So having done commercial property for most of my career,
I quite quickly had to become more of a generalist and work more in the commercial side of law and
mergers and acquisitions. So that was a really great experience. Again, at times I felt out of
depth, but with really supportive people around me and an openness to asking questions when I felt
that I needed to. Soon after, well, seven years there, felt very comfortable really working on
working on more of the commercial side, not necessarily in the legal side of things. So
yeah, it was a great stepping stone to what I've moved on to since.
We talk about psychological safety and that ability to be able to put your hand up and go,
not sure what to do here or haven't seen this before, ask for help or admit that
you don't quite know, but you'll find a way. Is that the thing that you felt or was there?
Absolutely. I think with everything I've probably done or tried to do in my life so far,
I think one thing that I've held very true to is be open and honest with myself about whether it's
within my current capabilities and also with others around me to ask questions to really
be honest and say, I haven't done this before, but I want to give it a go. And so that
inquisitiveness, which I think I bring to most things, I think helps in finding a path through
what may be a potential obstacle or problem if you are open-minded and open-hearted enough to be
honest with yourself and others around you. It sounds like throughout your career, and this is me
casting an aspersion, I guess, is that you had the tenacity to say yes to everything that's coming
away and then have the confidence to feel like you'll find a way to make it happen. Is that a pair?
Aspersion? Yeah, I think it is actually. I think my parents have always taught me and my brothers
have always demonstrated that to take opportunities when they're offered to you, not only that,
but to seek out opportunities as well. I'm not a shrinking violet in terms of sitting and waiting
for things to happen. I do try and take opportunities to study and I was offered the opportunity to do
an MBA, which I loved, and that I probably apply to every aspect of my life. The things that I
learned during that course, I apply to every aspect of my personal and professional life.
But yeah, so through moving from Minters and going into Dental Corporation and then having the
opportunity to be the founding CEO of Edge Early Learning has been an incredible opportunity that
had I said no to any of those opportunities, I'm not quite sure what I'd be doing now, to be honest.
Yeah. It's a path that I hadn't planned, but it's a path that I've thoroughly enjoyed being upon.
So say yes until you get to the ultimate destination?
Yes. Nice, I like it. I like it. Okay.
You were telling us that you took a while to do your MBA, but you were actually working at the time.
Yes. So you could apply it to real life situations and the learning was
relatable rather than just an academic to pass a test?
Absolutely. I would say that my MBA, because of the time in my life that I did it, where I was in a
very busy job and working very hard and learning all the time, not only in the role but learning
the academic side of the subjects that I chose in the MBA. Also had my son during that time,
so I was learning to be a mother at the same time as well. And yeah, it was just the fact that
I could relate to the topics I was learning about. It's the most studious I've ever been.
Like I've never really actively applied myself academically during school. I played a lot of
sport and probably socialized a bit too much at university and law school. But my MBA, I absolutely
couldn't get enough of because I could understand and appreciate what it meant in the real world
rather than academic theory that I might have learned at law school.
Can I ask you a question about that whole socializing during your university days?
Yes.
I've got a strong feeling that that's where we learn our emotional intelligence.
Right.
I think when you're out there at the pub, at the bar, at the uni bar and you're negotiating
with somebody on whatever it is.
We're the...
What are you negotiating?
No, okay, look. What I'm implying is that it's those outside the academia...
Academia?
Academia, thank you very much. The academia activities where you learn the life skills,
the social skills, the sociology, the aspects of human nature that are going to stand you
in good stead when you end up in a CEO role. Would you like to comment on that?
Yes, I'd 100% agree with you that that is definitely... Yeah, it's... Well, I personally
think that that's an immensely important part of shaping us as individuals if we want to be
shaped. But yeah, I've made masses of friends, close connections, people that I'm in contact
with now, essentially through work contacts and all sorts of things. But yeah, I definitely wasn't
necessarily in my lectures on time every day. Being the studious one, I was probably more
the one that was more playing on the social side.
Yeah, well, I firmly believe that the skills that you develop in your social life translate
to being an effective leader.
What would you say is the most important or one of the most important character traits of a leader?
Something that would make you the sort of person other people would be inspired to follow?
For me, it's authenticity. It's being real and genuine. I think for me, I do find it difficult
to follow somebody that I don't necessarily trust. And if I think back of all the people that have
been leaders in my career in the past, there's certainly some that I've learned how I wouldn't
like to be. And that's also really helpful because it really does shape how you would like to,
or how I personally would like to be as a leader. But yeah, authenticity and honesty,
I think are two really important traits that stand out for me.
So authentic in that you know who they are. They're not going to be turning up a different
person on a different day.
They walk the walk, not just the talks.
Absolutely. Yeah. That, you know, there's a sense of perhaps volatility or vulnerability that people,
that everybody has, I think. We'd be naive to think that there's not anyone in the world that
doesn't have some chink of volatility. And I don't think it's a bad thing to show that.
And I think to understand the needs of the people that you're leading or that you may be leading in
the future, not necessarily that that shapes how I lead. I don't consciously try to sort of think
how I, who I may lead in the future. I think it's a natural ability, I hope, that I try to come
across as who I am in my day-to-day life professionally and personally. Yeah.
So you're not out there as an avatar, you're authentic self.
Yep.
Do you have any mentors or people that you can trust with or ask for advice or lean on or
have a cry to or a bit of a moan to when, you know, because you're the CEO, you're at the top.
So who do you lean on or who do you rely on?
So I'm very lucky to have several people and groups of people. As part of my role at Edge,
I was given the opportunity to take part in the Commonwealth Women in Business Conference, many,
well, about five years ago. And through that, I've made some fantastic friends and connections
with like-minded business women. All have varied experiences, some extremely experienced in business
and some of the rest of us less so. And we've kept in contact over the last five years. And
that is a great support network for all of us to call on one another when we need to. And I would
always say to anybody that is new in a leadership role that having somebody to talk to is very
important. There's an old adage that it's lonely at the top and it's quite true sometimes. And so,
yeah, having a supportive network around you is very, very helpful, but comforting as well.
Who's the leader that you've, you don't have to name names, but have you had a leader
that you've admired in the past and what have you learned from them?
Or somebody that's led me personally, or do you mean somebody on a-
Or even somebody that's influenced you.
I have to say Susan, the first female partner that I worked for as a young lawyer. She was immensely
influential on my confidence, I have to say, on my levels of feeling that I could feel free to
bring my opinion to a table and openly talk to clients and really understand what clients need.
And I think that's probably one thing that if I did anything well as a lawyer, it would probably
be to really understand the needs of my client rather than from the aspect of the law firm
that I was necessarily working for, which is why I think I preferred in-house work more so, because
Because you weren't having to charge per hour.
Yeah, and I was part of the client itself. So yeah, Susan was an incredible inspiration to me.
What's a mistake that leaders should avoid?
That's a good question. I think sometimes leaders
feel that they need to talk too much. I think there's sometimes a feeling that
because you're a leader, you need to fill the silences or take the lead verbally and
physically in terms of commanding a room. I'm very different to that. I'm probably quieter in meetings
than many others. In fact, actually, I remember I was in a steering committee meeting with the CEO of
a big global health fund. And he turned to me and said, Annie, you're not saying anything. Why aren't
you contributing? And I said, I am contributing. Actually, I'm listening. And he said, oh, all
right. And I thought, yeah, my contribution actually is listening to this because it didn't need me to
say anything at the time. But it was that presumption that he's had that we all needed to be saying
something. And actually, I think there's certain times I think, probably one thing that some people
make mistake on is not thinking before they speak. And I think that's probably
an important trait to be cognizant of as a leader, to really think before you speak and to understand
the needs of the person you're speaking to and really get to so that you understand the message
coming to you and so that you can then deliver a suitable and appropriate message back.
I love that, Annie. I love that. One of my favorite authors, Stephen Covey,
he wrote The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. And it's still one of my favorite quotes
of all time, seek first to understand, then to be understood. I've heard it also said as two ears,
one mouth, that order, that proportion. Yeah, that's good.
Yeah, I love the way you describe that. I'm thinking of a quote where it's, isn't it there,
and I can't think of the quote exactly, but it's something about where if you speak,
like the idiot talks and the one who listens doesn't, or a fool, no one knows a fool if they
just, if they're quiet, but if, you know, a bit like I'm doing now. I don't know the quote.
We'll find the quote and we'll put it in the show notes. We'll put it in the show notes. But
yeah, no, and I love the energy that you were giving across when you were actually saying that.
It made me feel like that's a skill to be reckoned with, that when you're sitting there
really listening and paying attention, you're more powerful than the person who is speaking
because you're showing consideration of other people's opinions. And I think that's a good
thing. You're open, which shows a sense of confidence and that you're willing to hear
other people's opinions. It doesn't always have to be about your opinion. Absolutely.
Well, I've seen, I've noticed that with your team, what I know of your team is that they feel heard.
So anyone who does feel heard wants to contribute because they feel like they've got skin in the
game. They're part of the solution. And that I know from your team, what I've seen is exactly
what happens. You know, people give more if they feel they're valued. Yeah, brilliant. Yeah, I agree
with that. So I'm really pleased to hear that. That's your view of having worked with us. Yeah.
Yeah.
If you were mentoring a young leader, what's a piece of advice that you could give them?
I think probably be open to adapt and open to change. I think, I don't know this firsthand,
this is me making a, I suppose, not an assumption because I say never assume anything.
Like a generalisation.
Making a generalisation, yeah. That I think people, if they think they're on a particular path,
they have to get there. And there's only one particular way to go. And so they'll go down
a particular route and achieve qualifications and meet the right people and do the right roles. And
I think for, I mean, my own journey so far is probably evidence that you don't necessarily
have to be set on a path and that having an openness to opportunities that may arise,
different learning environments, different opportunities to improve your knowledge of
a particular area or yeah, don't, if I think if you think you're on one path, don't discount any
others. I think that's probably one thing I would say in that. And also if it doesn't feel right,
don't keep pursuing it because there's always a different path around obstacles.
So our tagline is life leadership and everything else. So we've really limited ourselves. And
if I can ask you for some life advice, so not just about leadership, but what have you learned in
your life that you could offer to anyone as life advice? That nothing is insurmountable.
I say that because when I, and I say this to friends and the team regularly is that
when you think something is going really badly or feels like there's no way out of a particular
scenario at the time, it is overwhelming and it feels like it's something that you can't overcome.
Then when you look back and I can do that so far and I can look back and everything that I've
thought was insurmountable at the time, I've actually been able to get through. And that
may be through assistance on various projects or all sorts of things. But I do think that
having a mindset of nothing is insurmountable is helpful because it makes you think of a
longer term picture. Because if you think of yourself in a moment in time when everything
is feeling like it's a barrier or everything's against you, it's really overwhelming. But then
if you then think back about what you have been able to achieve, however small that those things
are or incrementally you've made achievements and steps towards a goal, if you then reflect back,
you can see that there are things that whilst they seem bad at the time, they're probably things
that you've got the capability or the team around you to overcome. So yeah, that would be my
life advice. I love it. I love it.
One thing I want to touch on is you are sailing. So you're learning to sail, which I am very envious
of. And it's been a bit of a goal of mine for the last five years. So I will be sailing soon
because it's very similar to flying, similar sorts of things. So how long have you been sailing for?
And what have you learned?
To survive, obviously.
Well, I'm a true advocate for getting oneself out of one's comfort zone. And so I have learned a lot
and I've been sailing. I've done a few sort of learn to sail courses over the last couple of years,
but I've actually now recently bit the bullet and bought myself a secondhand boat.
You're a boat owner.
Yes, a small boat owner. And I was inspired by my now eight and a half year old son who started
learning to sail at six. And I'd always sort of quite enjoyed the idea of thinking I might sail,
but never have really given myself the time nor the push to do so. And so watching our son,
Sammy sail, I was thinking, oh, well, if he can do it, I can. But I'm very much getting out of my
comfort zone. I've learned to overcome that sense of, oh, sugar, what's going to happen if this all
goes wrong. And actually, thankfully, I'm sailing in a lake that's only 1.8 meters deep. So I think
too drastic.
You're tall enough to be able to breathe.
Yeah, I can breathe.
And has Sammy sailed your boat?
He hasn't. No, mine's a little bit too big for him, but he sails his own boat. And so he's out
there as a speck on the horizon. So it's really inspired me to take it on. It's a great opportunity
to switch off and concentrate only on what I'm supposed to be doing. And I deliberately bought
a boat that only has one sail, so I don't have a jib and a main sail to deal with. So I've thought
tactically about how to enhance my ability to be able to sail a boat. And yeah, it's something we
all do as a family. And it's a great time to unwind, but also challenge myself. So I'd never
seem to stop challenging myself.
I know a lot of leaders that sail. What is it about sailing? What do you learn from sailing
that seems to be attractive to leaders?
Well, my boat is just a single person. So I'm actually sailing solo. So I'm not leading anybody
but myself. I helm it and it's all up to me if it all goes wrong. Buck stops with me, but I
suppose that happens. So yes, this is all rotating back to what I do in day to day life.
But you were so you were sporty at school. You're still sporty.
I was very sporty at school.
Tennis player?
Tennis.
Oh, yes.
Tennis.
Okay. A budding professional tennis player.
So who was your sponsor?
Wilson.
Yes. But that was when I was very young. And yes, I, they sponsored my, myself and my team.
So yeah, I suppose in terms of leadership, my, I was a leader at a very young age, actually
throughout school. So lots of captain roles, house captain, school captain, school prefect
type.
School captain, school prefect type roles. But then when I went to uni, I didn't have any
leadership responsibility at all. So that's obviously where I was forming my
Building your
My emotional intelligence. I ditched all responsibility.
Get rid of responsibility. Learn about people.
Yeah. Learned about people and then picked up leadership roles again, inadvertently or
But that's a true leader because you didn't necessarily chase it. They were
bestowed upon you or you were invited to.
Yeah, I've been very lucky in terms of opportunity I've been given and invitations to
Would you say it's lucky or that you've said yes to an opportunity that others may not have?
Probably I've said yes.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
I think that leadership and parenthood are very closely closely related. I think great
leaders make great parents and vice versa. What have you learned about parenting that
you can apply to leadership?
That
Is there time out in leadership?
I have to say one, this is unusual because not many people are lucky enough to say this,
but I one of the best things I've ever done in my entire life is giving birth.
Like it was the most amazing experience. It was empowering. And I when I when something
is challenging me, I think well, look what I did there. And yeah, some I went into some mind over
matter situation and had the most like, yeah, it was an incredible experience. It wasn't fun,
but it was incredible experience that I think is yeah, something that's
Well, it's powerful, isn't it?
Powerful. Yeah. But so yeah, in terms of parenting as a leader and yeah, my parents are great leaders
for me as were my brothers and still are. But I learn so much from Sam every single day.
I listen to him and he gives me feedback regularly. We do a performance review of me as a mum.
And he often tells me that I need to sleep more, go to bed earlier. So I'm trying to
listen to his suggestions.
I like that actually. I'm going to ask my kids.
So you've empowered him to give you performance feedback.
Yeah.
That's fantastic.
Yeah. Started when he could talk.
Yeah.
And said, how am I going?
So you do that organisationally and in your family?
I do it more with the family rather than organisationally actually. I don't ask Paul
the same question. But now I certainly seek feedback from Sam. Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh, that's fantastic. I'm going to start doing that. I like that idea.
Yeah. You learn a lot of negotiation skills, obviously, as being a parent as well.
Yeah. No, but I know my kids would appreciate because I feel like they have psychological
safety at home, but they would appreciate the fact that they could give feedback.
Yeah. Well, that's it. Everyone wants to give feedback or be heard, don't they? And so I think
asking for feedback on how you're going as a parent is probably a really helpful opportunity
to hear feedback. Because people, your own parents give you feedback on how you're parenting.
Oh, yes.
But yeah, hearing it from your own children is really interesting and helps me to think
about how it may help shape the things you're doing and how you're feeling.
If we could ask you one last question, I've been trying to formulate this question throughout the
whole podcast because you've answered so many questions that I already have in advance. But
as the CEO, you're in charge and you've got there through saying yes to many experiences,
to constantly learning, to learning from other people. If you could lay us with one last
leadership message from somebody at the top, wisdom from the peak, what would that be?
Gosh. I think always be honest and always communicate very clearly around what's happening
in the business, if it's a business setting. Because I think if people don't feel that they
know what is going on or what is expected of them, it can be a very uncomfortable or
difficult situation. It's difficult to want to do something in response to a request if you
don't really understand the bigger picture. I think honesty and asking true questions and
telling the truth is probably one of the most important things I think you could do as a leader.
Annie, what a wonderful experience learning from you. Thank you so much for joining us.
Thank you.
We've learned from you and your experience and now our leaders will have too.
Very inspiring.
So I really appreciate the opportunities.
Thank you very much.
Our pleasure.
Thank you.
Well, that was fun.
That was fun.
You're such a clown.
The clown.
Lady captain.
And who's going to listen to this? Maybe our mums.
Thanks, mum.