Hello, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome back
to the SoCap Improv Comedy Podcast. My name is
Ralph McLeod. I am the owner and artistic director
of the SoCap Improv Comedy Theatre in Toronto,
Ontario, Canada. We're at 154 Danforth Avenue
above the Black Swan Tavern on the second and
third floor. We have improv classes, improv shows,
events. We have two theatres, and you can rent
and use yourself. We have private events, corporate
events. and a whole bunch of other things uh
the url is socap .ca that's s -o -c -a -p .ca
we are we run some of the classes we run we have
like uh committed classes where you would come
every week with the same group and the same teacher
for about seven or eight weeks depending on if
it's on a weekend or not because we don't run
classes on long weekends which can cause some
consternation uh with scheduling and whatnot
uh and uh those are really interesting but if
you have a more i guess you should you could
say like a less structured schedule we also have
uh dropping classes where you can come uh on
saturdays at five we have a dropping class for
improv and new friends which uses improv to sort
of break down barriers to communication help
you overcome your self -consciousness and grow
your self -confidence get out of your head and
get into the moment the way i like to talk about
that uh we also have a class that's improv for
social skills which goes even deeper into um
how much of what we've been taught about human
communication is not just wrong but exactly wrong
uh makes it much harder for us to talk to and
bond with other people and uh then we have on
fridays at six we have a like a role -playing
class that's sort of like the beginning improv
class for people who uh some may want to perform
uh but also if you want to just learn how to
be more playful with human beings out in the
real world when you have conversations that's
a good class for that and then on thursdays at
six we have our drop -in class for performers
um yeah so it's a real variety grab bag of stuff
and and some people who start in some places
wind up doing other things so that's really interesting
it's it's really fun for me to watch the journey
of people who come and Maybe the first time they
come, it's because they've heard, oh, improv
might help me get out of my comfort zone. Think
outside the box. And while those things are true,
well, I got to say, just a note about the comfort
zone thing. I do not want to get people out of
their comfort zone. I like to push up against
the outside of the comfort zone, the edge of
it, and see if I can expand it in something that
may have been. the hard to do or problematic
before becomes okay okay i got this i can do
this now and in that way we can slowly expand
our comfort zone i like that but um i don't like
to get out of the comfort zone i don't want to
be out of my comfort zone although i think my
comfort zone is pretty big i don't like to be
outside of it because then i'll be terrified
uh but i do like to do things that are that bring
me a certain amount of discomfort or that are
difficult you know i like doing that i like challenging
myself um because i you know i'm 56 so you know
i do things now routinely that a decade two decades
three decades ago would have filled me with absolute
horror that i'm doing them now but i do them
now and routinely and it's not a big deal at
all uh but it's interesting to watch people who
come in and that's their association with their
problem and that's what they want to do and then
before you know what they're on stage Because,
again, going on stage, you know, not to be a
professional comedian, because our beginning
student shows are for other students and friends
and family. It's very, how would I say? Well,
I like to make things be, you know, have low
stakes, have low stresses to them. Because once
you introduce stakes, I mean, and let's be honest,
getting on stage, even in front of only classmates
and friends and family is still. you know, induces
anxiety and fear and, you know, desires to be
good and perfect and all kinds of things, let
alone if you're doing that in front of an audience
of people who've paid and then have a right to,
I mean, everybody has a right to be entertained,
but have, I guess, are less forgiving since they
don't know you and they pay money. They might
be more demanding. and rightfully so but uh you
know we do our student shows those are free so
your friends and family and yourself can come
to those for free we do ask for a donation at
the end uh but that's you know that's mainly
because um some people like to give you know
they're very nice about that and and everybody
people have different capacities you know obviously
we have we have uh we have students who you know
for him A $5 or $10 donation is not easy to come
by. Or other people putting $20 in the hat at
the end is not a big deal and they're happy to
do it. So we do accept donations, but it is absolutely
not necessary. I would much rather people come
and hang out and have a good time and meet people
and experience if improv is right for them because
I have a hard time feeling that it isn't. I think
it's good for everybody. And interestingly enough,
I just saw someone sent me, I think it's the
University of Pittsburgh or Philadelphia, somewhere
in that region in the States, where they now,
and I'm sure this isn't the only one, but they
now have improv classes for their law students,
right? We're going to teach you, and I guess
it helps, yeah, it would certainly help if you're
arguing cases in front of juries and saying yes,
saying yes, so much power in saying yes. Anyway,
so today I wanted to talk about the beginning
of the creative process when it comes to improvisation.
And again, I know this podcast is really, it
is about improv. But to me, the big value of
improv, if you don't want to be a performer,
is how it helps in the real world. you know and
without any word of a lie like i in the real
world i improvise with people they just don't
know it uh i mean depending on how you define
improv you might say well just having a conversation
with someone is improv is improvising and i can't
sit here and say it's not it doesn't fit my definition
necessarily it could but my definition of improvising
really centers around playing and when you're
playing with someone it's it's about communicating
with them and bonding with that person and it's
less about i guess the um the the needs that
we have to get from other people like we all
have needs that we want from people right we
want to be liked we want to be seen as smart
we want to be seen as helpful like we all have
our various gimmicks that we want other people
that we want from other people we want them to
see us a certain way we want them to like us
And just because we want things from people doesn't
make that evil or bad. It depends on what you
want from people. But we do want things for people
to be liked. That's not a bad thing. But I've
lost my train of thought, which happens every
once in a while because I'm a bit of an idiot.
We want things from people. Yes. Right. And right.
So, yes, what improv is. So what? when you can
be improvising and playing with people, that
desire is seconded. It is reduced because the
play becomes the thing. And at the end of that,
you know, whether someone likes you or you like
them is just, it's outside of that. You know,
you can't make everybody like you and you're
not going to like everybody, of course, right?
That's just, we all know that. I think. I think
we all know that we don't like everybody. And
not everybody's going to like us. And, you know,
there's theories that it may have to do with,
you know, your immune system and whether the
immune systems of two individuals complement
each other. And in that case, there tends to
be more of a like between people who are like
-minded. You know, we like who we like. That's
all there is to it. So I think, for me, one definition
of improv has to include... playfulness and so
if i'm just having a conversation with someone
and i'm talking about something and they're not
really listening to me because they're busy thinking
what they're going to say to me and vice versa
to me that's not really improvising that's going
through the motions but depending on how you
define improv that certainly could be it absolutely
could be all right so uh so i want to talk about
the creative process and at the beginning of
an improv scene or not even the beginning but
the whole thing and how this parallels to me
a conversation with someone in the real world
when i say the real world you know i mean not
a work one not a school one but one where there
is no um i guess expectation like there's no
formal there's no formalcy to it it's like you
know a small talk at a cocktail party with someone
you've just met or banter at starbucks while
you're waiting for the barista to finish your
coffee the grocery store lineup, meeting someone
for the first time. That's what I'm talking about.
Or maybe it's a date or a second date or a third
date or eyes across a crowded room at the bar.
Anyway, the point being that when we start a
scene or when we start a conversation with someone,
what do we do? What are we doing? How do we start?
Do we think of a line of dialogue? People have
these small talk cues. Ask them about themselves.
Ask them, what brings you joy? These questions
now that are so overused, they become boring
unto themselves. I think we've learned over the
last 10 years that people don't want to talk
about what they do for a living, which, at least
in North America, is a question that we ask a
lot. I still get it. What do you do for a living?
I mean, I'll answer it, but it's not my favorite
question. And I don't usually care what people
do for a living unless what they do for a living
brings them a certain amount of joy and fulfillment.
Then I'll care about it all day. But if someone
does a job and that job, they only do it to pay
the bills and they're working for the weekend.
Well, then they don't care about it and I don't
care about it. So I'll go back to the improv
example for a second. So when a scene starts,
let's say two people. sitting there in chairs
looking at each other. There's no suggestion.
I don't like suggestions. There's art scenes
and we just look at each other. Well, what are
we doing? We're making decisions like crazy.
And, you know, how I feel. What does this feel
like? Does this feel formal, informal? Do we
like each other? Do we not like each other? Okay,
based on that, here comes a line of dialogue.
How was your weekend? Hmm, how was my weekend?
I'm going to decide it was great. It was great.
Thank you very much. Okay, why did they ask me
about my weekend? Who is this person? Who asks
that question? And we try to figure that out.
So to me, the act of figuring that out, when
it is between individuals, two, three, four,
including the audience, it could be 100 people,
we're all trying to figure that out. And in one
sense, we're discovering together who we are.
That's one way to do it. Another way is for a
character to just say it, to have thought about
it previously and come out and said, well, doctor,
how are my test results? That's another way to
do it. And that's a different one style because
that involves only one person. And so to me,
when it's one person, I call that writing or
inventing. You know, I'm going to invent a line
of dialogue or write a line of dialogue and I
will say it or I will invent myself a situation
and I will say it. And it's hard to, I think,
think about this without seeing it happen. But
when you see it happen, the writing or inventing
or pulling things out of left field is never
interesting. And it rarely gets a laugh. And
if it does, it'll get a derisive laugh. Or you
might get a head laugh if it's a really good
line. You might get like a clever and up in the
headline. Up in the headline and up in the head
laugh. Discovery on the other side of that. This
divergent thinking that happens between and among
people as we discover things together without
stating them. And it just becomes somehow clear.
Like, oh, that's a father and his son. But nobody
said dad. Nobody said son. We just know it somehow.
And how did that happen? Well, they've discovered
that in the course of events. And that discovery
is based on all the things that happened up to
the moment when it became clear to us. And it
started with the way they looked at each other.
And any kind of initiation that a person may
have, an improviser may have taken on before
the scene started. Like, I like you or I don't
like you. Or I feel superior to you. Or I'm in
a good mood. I'm happy. So all of that together
led eventually to the discovery that it's a father
and son. And as we go on, we might discover more
that, oh, this is the son's last day before he
goes off to war, say. Okay, then it becomes a
different thing. But these bits of plot or bits
of information that come out are... much more
satisfying to ourselves, to each other, to an
audience watching them when we discover them
almost by accident, as if we're talking along
and then all of a sudden it just becomes aware
to me like, oh, I guess you're leaving. Why are
you leaving? You're going off to war. Okay. And
that's different from a sort of prefrontal process
of like, well, what can I say right now that
will be interesting or funny? And even if you
can say the best thing, it's rarely funny in
a sense that connects with people. And you can
tell the difference between the laughter that
connects and laughter that doesn't. The laughter
that doesn't, and this is not a pejorative thing,
you know, it doesn't say like one is better than
the other, although I do myself think the connecting
laugh is better, richer and deeper and more rewarding,
but a head laugh. you know at a clever joke a
turn of phrase a pun that's really good we'll
get a bit of a clever nice i get it but it's
up in the head the discovery lap that comes like
oh my gosh oh my gosh oh i just get it now she's
having an affair that discovery lap that happens
you know the actors discover at the same time
as the audience discovers it and that is a magical
moment because it brings us all together in the
here and now into a moment that is for all of
us and it reminds us that there are people that
we have groups and tribes and this is my group
because we've all got there together i'm part
of something and boy that's what we really all
want right to be to connect with other human
beings and be part of something so the two sort
of ways of of creating scenes is that is the
writing and inventing route where you know that's
down to one person generally who lays out a lot
of information uh who says things that they think
will be funny but rarely are uh versus the discovery
where we work hard together and and we think
about well how do i feel about this person how
do i feel what just happened given that i've
made these choices what does this scene start
to feel like does it feel formal or informal
Does it feel professional or are we a family
or are we a couple? Do we love each other or
do we like each other? Do we hate each other?
Okay, based on all that, who does this feel like
we are? And that discovery that you work out,
it happens again and again and again. We'll discover
the relationship between the characters or that
one character doesn't like the other one. And
then I think back on the scene that I've just
watched, like when, when did I become aware of
that? Or when did there was no real clear answer.
There's an exercise. I don't do this exercise
anymore, but it's called the mirroring exercise
where two actors will face each other and they
will begin moving. And if A is leading, B follows
exactly and then B leads and A follows exactly.
And you keep kind of flipping back and forth
until it becomes hard to know who is leading.
And it just seems like it's a seamless dance.
And it's like that. You know, there's also a
Meisner exercise that I use where I have characters
standing, actors standing face to face. And character
A will say, you're wearing a blue shirt. And
character B will do everything they can to say
exactly and to reproduce what they've just seen.
The voice, the line, any flexion, any laugh,
any titter, any physical thing, exactly. Back
to the, you're wearing a blue shirt. You're wearing
a blue shirt. You're wearing a blue shirt. And
when you do that, eventually it'll start to change.
They'll get self -conscious, they'll laugh. The
other character will also laugh back. um and
it's amazing when you watch that uh how often
there will be things that will change and in
retrospect will say well who was the first person
who laughed and nobody will know we just know
they started laughing and that's the quality
of discovery that is magical and transformative
where invention is often boring derivative obvious
you know and especially you know even if you're
really good at writing a lot of dialogue And
I mean pretty good. Of course, there are some
really great improvisers who can do this on the
regular. But for most of us, even if you write
a pretty good line of dialogue, you might get
a ha! Or you just come across as a smart aleck.
Now, I'm going to wrap this up in another minute.
But this also, to me, works in the real world
where I meet someone for the first time. And
I'm just trying to figure out, well, what is
this? What does this feel like? Are we going
to become lifelong friends? Is this a single
serving acquaintance? Do I want to get out of
here as fast as possible? You know, I try not
to make decisions beforehand. I want this interaction
to proceed and then I'll let the interaction
tell me what it is rather than me imposing it.
Right. And that way, you know, hopefully if there
are friends out there or, you know, the future
Mrs. McLeod, I won't miss them because I won't
be I won't arrive with my preconceived notions.
I will instead let the situation unfold as it
wants to unfold. And then I will find out what
people are. Anyway, that's my time for today.
Thank you very much. Discovery versus invention.
Discovery or uncovery. You know, one thing I
think about with scenes and with interactions
is that they've already taken place. And my job
is just to come in and move away all the dust
and sand and see what it was. And discover what
was already there. You know, the characters with
the improv. The characters already know what's
going on. They already know their lives. But
they're sharing it with me. And I'm figuring
that thing out rather than me imposing something.
You know, and one of the problems with imposing
is you don't know what's in your scene partner's
head. And it often leads to fights over whose
reality, whose games are we going to play. All
right. Well, that's it for me today. Thanks so
much, everybody, for tuning in to the Socap Improv
Comedy Podcast. Discovery and Uncovery versus
Invention and or Writing. or solo creation the
differences and why i think one is superior to
the other all right you have a great week we'll
see you here next time on the socap improv comedy
podcast bye