Hello, everybody, and welcome to the SoCab Improv
Comedy Podcast. My name is Ralph. I'm the owner
and artistic director of the SoCab Improv Comedy
Theater in Toronto. We're at 154 Danforth Avenue
above the Black Swan Tavern on the second and
third floor. We do classes, shows, corporate
events, classes predominantly for people who
are not looking to become comedians, but who
like what improv brings to their lives. In terms
of helping overcome self -consciousness, embracing
self -confidence, I like to say, get out of your
head and get into the moment, which is something
that we can all do more of. Absolutely. There's
a lot of overlap between improv and mindfulness
and stoicism and Taoism. What I often say is
that, well, if ancient philosophies like Taoism
and Buddhism and Stoicism say these things and
mindfulness says it and modern psychology says
it, there's got to be something to all this stuff.
And I firmly believe that there is. In fact,
I was just reading today another article in the
Toronto Star about a clinician physician who's
using improv to help her. Overcome imposter syndrome.
And certainly it will help with that. Stretching
comfort zones. So many things. Anyway, today.
Oh, first of all, of course, every podcast has
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Yeah. So today I wanted to talk about something
that is one of the very, I guess, most important
traps that lead to. bad improv, I guess, or improv
that doesn't transform or change or is not interesting.
And that's what I call the argument trap. And
it would go by a bunch of different names, but
essentially what it is, is two characters at
least, and they have differing opinions on what
they want to do. you know, the classic, you kind
of, or a classic example might be, and you see
this all the time, if a character steps up and
starts painting a fence, almost invariably, another
character will step up and say, you can't paint
that here. And we lead right to an argument or
a conflict between the characters. And while
it seems to be, and it can lead to be a conflict
between the characters and not the actors, Typically,
this is a conflict between the actors. So I want
to talk about what it is, why it happens, how
to recognize it, ways to get out of it. Because
the big problem with it, there's two big problems,
is that when you engage in the argument trap,
or you can call it an argument as a game, or
it's a denial of reality. Or it is a refusal
to engage in the game that another person wants
to play or the gambit that they want to do. Or
blocking is an old term for it. It basically
doesn't allow the scene to move forward. And
this happens on stage. It also happens in real
life, too. In real life, it manifests itself
in the way that we don't listen to each other.
And basically, we just have conversations at
each other trying to convince other people of
our point of view rather than accepting what
their point of view is or their opinion is and
then dealing with that. And that's the way of
the argument trap, which we'll get to. So the
argument trap tends to occur when the characters
take up opposite positions. And often this is
because of the actors taking up opposite positions
because, or this is why I think it happens. The
one thing about conflict between characters or
between the actors is that it's easy, right?
I know my role. If you say, why don't we go to
the park? And I'm like, oh, no, I'd rather go
to the store. Oh, please. The park is much nicer.
Well, if we go to the store, we can do this.
It's a really, it's really, how would you say?
It's familiar. It's easy to do. But the problem
is it doesn't go anywhere. We just keep going.
We're just talking back and forth to each other.
And nothing is happening. The emotional stakes
of the scene are not changing. We're not advancing
anything. We're just stuck. We're stuck in a
loop. And to me, I like musical analogies a lot
for improv. And it's like we are stuck on a melodic
refrain that just keeps repeating and repeating
and repeating. And even if it's the most beautiful
melodic refrain you've ever heard, eventually
you get tired of it. And we get tired of it.
But the one thing, especially for novice improvisers,
is that it's familiar and everybody thinks you
need conflict and the one conflict they understand
is conflict between the characters but uh to
me it's deep -seated it's more based in fear
is where this manifests and it's and one of the
ways that uh we could try to control our fear
is control the situation that's one of the two
main types of ways that we control our fear by
controlling the situation And if I just say no
to whatever you want to do and say, here's my
idea, that's controlling the situation and it
helps you deal with my fear. But it doesn't allow
discovery. It doesn't allow play. It doesn't
allow collaboration. It doesn't allow serving
the relationship or serving the experience. It's
about my needs and that's why, one of the reasons
why it doesn't work. So that's the argument trap.
It's the immediate sort of nay saying of whatever
the other person wants to do. or trying to change
their minds. Now, it doesn't always have to be
in a negative place. It can be in a very positive
place. Positive in the sense of being nice. So,
for example, if character A says, Mom always
loved you best, 95 % of the time, the other improviser
will say, Oh, no, she didn't. What are you talking
about? No, no, she loved us both equally. And
that comes from a place of kindness, not kindness,
niceness. Because I differentiate between kindness
and niceness in that kindness is hearing what
you need to hear, whereas niceness is hearing
what you want to hear. And it's up to you to
depend which one you like better. But it's so
it's a nice we're trying to not rust, not not,
you know, rock the boat too much. And we're trying
to be supportive. Right. It's the same way when
our kids come to us and say, I don't want to
go to school because I'm scared. And we as parents
say, what's not to be scared about? It's fine.
You'll be fine. Go to school. So it can come
from a very place of nice. It has. There's a
lot of a lot of times it is based in that, you
know, and again, another character says, boy,
oh, boy, I really I really messed up that meeting.
And 95 percent of the time the other character
will say, no, you didn't. It's fine. And see,
and now what happens is nobody has any idea what
the reality is. Did they mess up or did they
not? And now we've got to spend time figuring
this out. And this is the argument trap. We go
back and forth, back and forth, back and forth.
And finally, one character will capitulate. No,
you know what? Actually, now that you talk about
it for 35 minutes, you're right. You could have
done better. And we're not really any farther
ahead. Another scene's practically over because
the one thing we did have, which was this argument,
is now over. And once that... is over we recognize
that's probably the end of the scene it's like
if you started the scene and you didn't talk
for three minutes and then you said something
well we we know the scene's over and it's the
same thing but in during this uh period of time
nothing's really happened so that's the argument
trap uh we get into it i think out of fear mainly
so if nothing is happening there's no risk and
so i'm like i'm safe i'm good so a controlling
way to control our fear but it doesn't allow
any discovery or anything to happen. So it's
boring. Everybody's in their head thinking about
what to say. No one's having a good time. The
actors generally are like, I'd rather be at a
place else. Why isn't this working? And anybody
watching it will be bored to tears. So what do
you do? What do you do when confronted with these?
The first is to say yes as to this is what's
happening. So mom loved you best. Of course she
did. Of course she did. Of course mother loved
me best. I'm the superior child. That's one way
to do it. Or, you know, if character A says you
should move out. And again, 95 % of the time
people will fire back with some kind of, but
I can't move out because I can't afford it. So
the first thing you can do is just say yes. Okay,
you're right. I've lived here long enough. It's
time to move on. I really messed up that meeting
in there. Oh, you sure did. We're fired. Or you're
fired. You're dead. You know, like we can say,
yes, that's the first one. Right. Or I'm trying
to think of another example where a character
might say something mean to you. Like, you're
not a nice person. You want to say yes to that.
Yeah, I'm not a nice person. You bring it out.
And these are all saying yes to the idea that
I'm not a nice person. And you might want to
justify that. do whatever you want with it um
so one we can say yes you should do you know
you should wash the dishes okay i'll wash the
dishes you should move out okay i'll move out
we should get a divorce yeah we definitely should
get a divorce you can say yes first of all someone's
painting a fence hey nice job bringing that fence
here good job well done uh now the other the
other flip side of that is if you go out to paint
a fence and someone says You can't paint that
fence here. Say yes to that. Oh, I'm so sorry.
I had no idea. Oh, I will move on. Now, that
person who just said you can't paint the fence
here will say, oh, wait, I was wrong. Please
come back and paint. But so even if you suggest
something, another person denies your reality,
you can say yes to that. Oh, I had no idea. I
beg your pardon. I really messed up in there.
No, you didn't. You did fine. Really? Oh, wow.
I guess I mistook, you know, the boss slapping
me on the back as an act of aggression. Okay,
because at the end of the day, all we really
want is have the details solidified so we know
what's happening so we can move forward. So that's
the one. You can say yes. The second one is you
can fight back if you want, but then you got
to escalate it, right? You can't just be like,
no, you know, let's go to the park. No, I'd rather
go to the store. Oh, I'd rather go to the park.
No, I want to go to the store. Nothing happens.
So you could, if you need to, say no. But in
a way that escalates it and raises it. I want
to go to the park. You know what? We've been
to the park three days in a row. Let's go to
a store. Let's do something different. Okay.
Well, now we've escalated. Okay. Now it's firing
back. And now the problem is not where we're
going to go, which nobody cares about. Nobody
cares if you go to the store or the mall because
they're not real. What we care about is what's
happening between the people. So like, oh boy,
that's a huge thing. You can say no, but you've
got to escalate it. And then if I'm determined,
like let's say it's a conflict of you need to
move out because you're not paying rent. Where
the other character says, I can't move out because
I have no money. And you're basically throwing
me out on the street. So the character A says,
you need to move out. Character B says, I can't
move out. I will die out there. Back to character
A. Good, good, starve. Okay, now we have a scene.
I'm like, oh my gosh, they really want them out.
And now it's about the people, not about leaving
an apartment, which isn't real and nobody cares
about. And then the third option to avoid the
argument trap is to say, why would you say that?
Right? Boy, I really messed up in there. Why
would you say that? Boy, mom loved you best.
You know? Yeah. Okay. What's this about? What's
going on? Why are you bringing this up now? So
that's a third option. just digging down into
what the person, the character is trying to get
across. All of these are better than the knee
-jerk reaction of, no, no, it's not what he's
talking about, and trying to gaslight the other
character into accepting your point of view.
Conversely, if you are being gaslit by the other
character, say yes to the gaslighting. Oh, you
know what? Why did I get that so wrong? Huh,
thank you for being here and pointing out the
reality. Now, How to avoid these that one thing
about them is they're so ingrained in so many
people. You know, I know people that have been
doing these for years and I try to help them
avoid them and stay out of them. But they're
so ingrained in a lot of us. So part of our default
system that it's really hard to get out of them.
And I would recommend if you know you do this,
if notes have been given to you that you do this.
that you have someone else pointing out to you.
And if it's not on an improv stage, if it's in
real life, and you tend to take up an opposite
position and try to talk people into your point
of view rather than dealing with their point
of view, ask people to tell you. I think. I don't
know how else to get around it. Because in the
real world, we don't listen to people, right?
We just try to convince them our point of view.
We like to give people advice, not because we
even follow our own advice. We just want to matter.
But, you know, if someone tells you something,
say yes. And then figure out why they think that.
You know, one thing that's different is like,
it used to be okay to have different opinions.
And then we just talk about why we have different
opinions. But now it's not like that. Anyway,
that's for this week. So thanks for tuning in.
And we'll see you next time here on the So Got
Improv Comedy Podcast. Thanks.