WEBVTT 00:00:00.460 --> 00:00:03.319 Hello, everybody, and welcome to the SoCab Improv 00:00:03.319 --> 00:00:05.780 Comedy Podcast. My name is Ralph. I'm the owner 00:00:05.780 --> 00:00:09.179 and artistic director of the SoCab Improv Comedy 00:00:09.179 --> 00:00:13.039 Theater in Toronto. We're at 154 Danforth Avenue 00:00:13.039 --> 00:00:15.300 above the Black Swan Tavern on the second and 00:00:15.300 --> 00:00:18.100 third floor. We do classes, shows, corporate 00:00:18.100 --> 00:00:22.140 events, classes predominantly for people who 00:00:22.140 --> 00:00:26.179 are not looking to become comedians, but who 00:00:26.179 --> 00:00:31.399 like what improv brings to their lives. In terms 00:00:31.399 --> 00:00:35.960 of helping overcome self -consciousness, embracing 00:00:35.960 --> 00:00:38.960 self -confidence, I like to say, get out of your 00:00:38.960 --> 00:00:42.560 head and get into the moment, which is something 00:00:42.560 --> 00:00:46.719 that we can all do more of. Absolutely. There's 00:00:46.719 --> 00:00:49.759 a lot of overlap between improv and mindfulness 00:00:49.759 --> 00:00:57.030 and stoicism and Taoism. What I often say is 00:00:57.030 --> 00:00:59.729 that, well, if ancient philosophies like Taoism 00:00:59.729 --> 00:01:04.250 and Buddhism and Stoicism say these things and 00:01:04.250 --> 00:01:07.109 mindfulness says it and modern psychology says 00:01:07.109 --> 00:01:09.189 it, there's got to be something to all this stuff. 00:01:09.469 --> 00:01:12.769 And I firmly believe that there is. In fact, 00:01:12.790 --> 00:01:14.829 I was just reading today another article in the 00:01:14.829 --> 00:01:20.209 Toronto Star about a clinician physician who's 00:01:20.209 --> 00:01:25.819 using improv to help her. Overcome imposter syndrome. 00:01:26.159 --> 00:01:29.459 And certainly it will help with that. Stretching 00:01:29.459 --> 00:01:31.879 comfort zones. So many things. Anyway, today. 00:01:32.780 --> 00:01:36.099 Oh, first of all, of course, every podcast has 00:01:36.099 --> 00:01:39.519 a sponsor. Today's sponsor is Wexler's Beef. 00:01:39.599 --> 00:01:42.920 Wexler's Beef. Our hands are in your mouth. So 00:01:42.920 --> 00:01:46.239 look for Wexler's Beef for all your fine beef 00:01:46.239 --> 00:01:49.700 products. Whatever beef related needs you may 00:01:49.700 --> 00:01:53.500 have. Look for Wexler's Beef. Our mouth. Your 00:01:53.500 --> 00:01:55.640 mouth is in our hands or our hands are in your 00:01:55.640 --> 00:02:00.700 mouth. Either way, it's disgusting, but great. 00:02:01.180 --> 00:02:06.060 Yeah. So today I wanted to talk about something 00:02:06.060 --> 00:02:12.099 that is one of the very, I guess, most important 00:02:12.099 --> 00:02:19.599 traps that lead to. bad improv, I guess, or improv 00:02:19.599 --> 00:02:24.120 that doesn't transform or change or is not interesting. 00:02:25.419 --> 00:02:30.060 And that's what I call the argument trap. And 00:02:30.060 --> 00:02:33.259 it would go by a bunch of different names, but 00:02:33.259 --> 00:02:38.620 essentially what it is, is two characters at 00:02:38.620 --> 00:02:42.259 least, and they have differing opinions on what 00:02:42.259 --> 00:02:46.879 they want to do. you know, the classic, you kind 00:02:46.879 --> 00:02:50.680 of, or a classic example might be, and you see 00:02:50.680 --> 00:02:52.419 this all the time, if a character steps up and 00:02:52.419 --> 00:02:56.539 starts painting a fence, almost invariably, another 00:02:56.539 --> 00:02:58.300 character will step up and say, you can't paint 00:02:58.300 --> 00:03:03.099 that here. And we lead right to an argument or 00:03:03.099 --> 00:03:06.419 a conflict between the characters. And while 00:03:06.419 --> 00:03:10.479 it seems to be, and it can lead to be a conflict 00:03:10.479 --> 00:03:12.719 between the characters and not the actors, Typically, 00:03:12.719 --> 00:03:18.319 this is a conflict between the actors. So I want 00:03:18.319 --> 00:03:21.719 to talk about what it is, why it happens, how 00:03:21.719 --> 00:03:27.180 to recognize it, ways to get out of it. Because 00:03:27.180 --> 00:03:31.560 the big problem with it, there's two big problems, 00:03:31.659 --> 00:03:34.259 is that when you engage in the argument trap, 00:03:34.539 --> 00:03:37.879 or you can call it an argument as a game, or 00:03:37.879 --> 00:03:41.169 it's a denial of reality. Or it is a refusal 00:03:41.169 --> 00:03:44.930 to engage in the game that another person wants 00:03:44.930 --> 00:03:49.750 to play or the gambit that they want to do. Or 00:03:49.750 --> 00:03:54.370 blocking is an old term for it. It basically 00:03:54.370 --> 00:03:57.969 doesn't allow the scene to move forward. And 00:03:57.969 --> 00:03:59.969 this happens on stage. It also happens in real 00:03:59.969 --> 00:04:02.830 life, too. In real life, it manifests itself 00:04:02.830 --> 00:04:05.210 in the way that we don't listen to each other. 00:04:06.939 --> 00:04:09.259 And basically, we just have conversations at 00:04:09.259 --> 00:04:10.919 each other trying to convince other people of 00:04:10.919 --> 00:04:13.500 our point of view rather than accepting what 00:04:13.500 --> 00:04:15.419 their point of view is or their opinion is and 00:04:15.419 --> 00:04:17.540 then dealing with that. And that's the way of 00:04:17.540 --> 00:04:19.600 the argument trap, which we'll get to. So the 00:04:19.600 --> 00:04:22.860 argument trap tends to occur when the characters 00:04:22.860 --> 00:04:25.959 take up opposite positions. And often this is 00:04:25.959 --> 00:04:28.279 because of the actors taking up opposite positions 00:04:28.279 --> 00:04:32.959 because, or this is why I think it happens. The 00:04:32.959 --> 00:04:35.560 one thing about conflict between characters or 00:04:35.560 --> 00:04:38.860 between the actors is that it's easy, right? 00:04:38.959 --> 00:04:43.360 I know my role. If you say, why don't we go to 00:04:43.360 --> 00:04:45.300 the park? And I'm like, oh, no, I'd rather go 00:04:45.300 --> 00:04:47.779 to the store. Oh, please. The park is much nicer. 00:04:47.920 --> 00:04:49.339 Well, if we go to the store, we can do this. 00:04:50.259 --> 00:04:54.060 It's a really, it's really, how would you say? 00:04:54.160 --> 00:04:57.939 It's familiar. It's easy to do. But the problem 00:04:57.939 --> 00:05:00.220 is it doesn't go anywhere. We just keep going. 00:05:00.300 --> 00:05:02.139 We're just talking back and forth to each other. 00:05:02.389 --> 00:05:04.870 And nothing is happening. The emotional stakes 00:05:04.870 --> 00:05:07.810 of the scene are not changing. We're not advancing 00:05:07.810 --> 00:05:09.790 anything. We're just stuck. We're stuck in a 00:05:09.790 --> 00:05:13.389 loop. And to me, I like musical analogies a lot 00:05:13.389 --> 00:05:17.670 for improv. And it's like we are stuck on a melodic 00:05:17.670 --> 00:05:19.389 refrain that just keeps repeating and repeating 00:05:19.389 --> 00:05:21.389 and repeating. And even if it's the most beautiful 00:05:21.389 --> 00:05:23.889 melodic refrain you've ever heard, eventually 00:05:23.889 --> 00:05:26.250 you get tired of it. And we get tired of it. 00:05:27.370 --> 00:05:30.990 But the one thing, especially for novice improvisers, 00:05:31.709 --> 00:05:34.370 is that it's familiar and everybody thinks you 00:05:34.370 --> 00:05:37.509 need conflict and the one conflict they understand 00:05:37.509 --> 00:05:40.990 is conflict between the characters but uh to 00:05:40.990 --> 00:05:43.189 me it's deep -seated it's more based in fear 00:05:43.189 --> 00:05:46.810 is where this manifests and it's and one of the 00:05:46.810 --> 00:05:50.029 ways that uh we could try to control our fear 00:05:50.029 --> 00:05:52.649 is control the situation that's one of the two 00:05:52.649 --> 00:05:55.350 main types of ways that we control our fear by 00:05:55.350 --> 00:05:57.470 controlling the situation And if I just say no 00:05:57.470 --> 00:05:59.189 to whatever you want to do and say, here's my 00:05:59.189 --> 00:06:01.470 idea, that's controlling the situation and it 00:06:01.470 --> 00:06:04.629 helps you deal with my fear. But it doesn't allow 00:06:04.629 --> 00:06:08.269 discovery. It doesn't allow play. It doesn't 00:06:08.269 --> 00:06:10.310 allow collaboration. It doesn't allow serving 00:06:10.310 --> 00:06:12.850 the relationship or serving the experience. It's 00:06:12.850 --> 00:06:16.189 about my needs and that's why, one of the reasons 00:06:16.189 --> 00:06:19.389 why it doesn't work. So that's the argument trap. 00:06:19.810 --> 00:06:24.110 It's the immediate sort of nay saying of whatever 00:06:24.110 --> 00:06:28.019 the other person wants to do. or trying to change 00:06:28.019 --> 00:06:32.180 their minds. Now, it doesn't always have to be 00:06:32.180 --> 00:06:33.980 in a negative place. It can be in a very positive 00:06:33.980 --> 00:06:37.779 place. Positive in the sense of being nice. So, 00:06:37.819 --> 00:06:40.199 for example, if character A says, Mom always 00:06:40.199 --> 00:06:44.920 loved you best, 95 % of the time, the other improviser 00:06:44.920 --> 00:06:46.240 will say, Oh, no, she didn't. What are you talking 00:06:46.240 --> 00:06:48.420 about? No, no, she loved us both equally. And 00:06:48.420 --> 00:06:51.379 that comes from a place of kindness, not kindness, 00:06:51.459 --> 00:06:54.959 niceness. Because I differentiate between kindness 00:06:54.959 --> 00:06:58.680 and niceness in that kindness is hearing what 00:06:58.680 --> 00:07:00.660 you need to hear, whereas niceness is hearing 00:07:00.660 --> 00:07:05.959 what you want to hear. And it's up to you to 00:07:05.959 --> 00:07:09.660 depend which one you like better. But it's so 00:07:09.660 --> 00:07:14.360 it's a nice we're trying to not rust, not not, 00:07:14.420 --> 00:07:18.060 you know, rock the boat too much. And we're trying 00:07:18.060 --> 00:07:20.639 to be supportive. Right. It's the same way when 00:07:20.639 --> 00:07:22.199 our kids come to us and say, I don't want to 00:07:22.199 --> 00:07:24.379 go to school because I'm scared. And we as parents 00:07:24.379 --> 00:07:26.759 say, what's not to be scared about? It's fine. 00:07:26.860 --> 00:07:29.779 You'll be fine. Go to school. So it can come 00:07:29.779 --> 00:07:34.220 from a very place of nice. It has. There's a 00:07:34.220 --> 00:07:37.240 lot of a lot of times it is based in that, you 00:07:37.240 --> 00:07:39.819 know, and again, another character says, boy, 00:07:39.939 --> 00:07:41.920 oh, boy, I really I really messed up that meeting. 00:07:42.259 --> 00:07:44.519 And 95 percent of the time the other character 00:07:44.519 --> 00:07:47.160 will say, no, you didn't. It's fine. And see, 00:07:47.199 --> 00:07:49.399 and now what happens is nobody has any idea what 00:07:49.399 --> 00:07:51.360 the reality is. Did they mess up or did they 00:07:51.360 --> 00:07:53.680 not? And now we've got to spend time figuring 00:07:53.680 --> 00:07:57.579 this out. And this is the argument trap. We go 00:07:57.579 --> 00:07:59.100 back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. 00:07:59.199 --> 00:08:01.319 And finally, one character will capitulate. No, 00:08:01.339 --> 00:08:03.160 you know what? Actually, now that you talk about 00:08:03.160 --> 00:08:05.680 it for 35 minutes, you're right. You could have 00:08:05.680 --> 00:08:08.300 done better. And we're not really any farther 00:08:08.300 --> 00:08:10.860 ahead. Another scene's practically over because 00:08:10.860 --> 00:08:13.540 the one thing we did have, which was this argument, 00:08:13.680 --> 00:08:17.579 is now over. And once that... is over we recognize 00:08:17.579 --> 00:08:20.220 that's probably the end of the scene it's like 00:08:20.220 --> 00:08:21.660 if you started the scene and you didn't talk 00:08:21.660 --> 00:08:23.699 for three minutes and then you said something 00:08:23.699 --> 00:08:26.420 well we we know the scene's over and it's the 00:08:26.420 --> 00:08:29.379 same thing but in during this uh period of time 00:08:29.379 --> 00:08:31.839 nothing's really happened so that's the argument 00:08:31.839 --> 00:08:35.679 trap uh we get into it i think out of fear mainly 00:08:35.679 --> 00:08:38.200 so if nothing is happening there's no risk and 00:08:38.200 --> 00:08:41.039 so i'm like i'm safe i'm good so a controlling 00:08:41.039 --> 00:08:43.740 way to control our fear but it doesn't allow 00:08:43.740 --> 00:08:45.519 any discovery or anything to happen. So it's 00:08:45.519 --> 00:08:48.580 boring. Everybody's in their head thinking about 00:08:48.580 --> 00:08:51.740 what to say. No one's having a good time. The 00:08:51.740 --> 00:08:56.019 actors generally are like, I'd rather be at a 00:08:56.019 --> 00:08:58.840 place else. Why isn't this working? And anybody 00:08:58.840 --> 00:09:04.159 watching it will be bored to tears. So what do 00:09:04.159 --> 00:09:09.639 you do? What do you do when confronted with these? 00:09:10.399 --> 00:09:13.259 The first is to say yes as to this is what's 00:09:13.259 --> 00:09:17.299 happening. So mom loved you best. Of course she 00:09:17.299 --> 00:09:19.159 did. Of course she did. Of course mother loved 00:09:19.159 --> 00:09:22.519 me best. I'm the superior child. That's one way 00:09:22.519 --> 00:09:26.139 to do it. Or, you know, if character A says you 00:09:26.139 --> 00:09:29.320 should move out. And again, 95 % of the time 00:09:29.320 --> 00:09:31.840 people will fire back with some kind of, but 00:09:31.840 --> 00:09:34.159 I can't move out because I can't afford it. So 00:09:34.159 --> 00:09:36.460 the first thing you can do is just say yes. Okay, 00:09:36.559 --> 00:09:38.879 you're right. I've lived here long enough. It's 00:09:38.879 --> 00:09:41.399 time to move on. I really messed up that meeting 00:09:41.399 --> 00:09:44.340 in there. Oh, you sure did. We're fired. Or you're 00:09:44.340 --> 00:09:46.720 fired. You're dead. You know, like we can say, 00:09:46.799 --> 00:09:52.039 yes, that's the first one. Right. Or I'm trying 00:09:52.039 --> 00:09:53.559 to think of another example where a character 00:09:53.559 --> 00:09:57.740 might say something mean to you. Like, you're 00:09:57.740 --> 00:10:00.340 not a nice person. You want to say yes to that. 00:10:00.779 --> 00:10:03.059 Yeah, I'm not a nice person. You bring it out. 00:10:03.120 --> 00:10:06.100 And these are all saying yes to the idea that 00:10:06.100 --> 00:10:08.220 I'm not a nice person. And you might want to 00:10:08.220 --> 00:10:11.269 justify that. do whatever you want with it um 00:10:11.269 --> 00:10:15.870 so one we can say yes you should do you know 00:10:15.870 --> 00:10:18.470 you should wash the dishes okay i'll wash the 00:10:18.470 --> 00:10:20.230 dishes you should move out okay i'll move out 00:10:20.230 --> 00:10:22.250 we should get a divorce yeah we definitely should 00:10:22.250 --> 00:10:26.029 get a divorce you can say yes first of all someone's 00:10:26.029 --> 00:10:28.309 painting a fence hey nice job bringing that fence 00:10:28.309 --> 00:10:33.850 here good job well done uh now the other the 00:10:33.850 --> 00:10:35.470 other flip side of that is if you go out to paint 00:10:35.470 --> 00:10:37.750 a fence and someone says You can't paint that 00:10:37.750 --> 00:10:39.990 fence here. Say yes to that. Oh, I'm so sorry. 00:10:40.110 --> 00:10:42.889 I had no idea. Oh, I will move on. Now, that 00:10:42.889 --> 00:10:44.850 person who just said you can't paint the fence 00:10:44.850 --> 00:10:47.370 here will say, oh, wait, I was wrong. Please 00:10:47.370 --> 00:10:51.850 come back and paint. But so even if you suggest 00:10:51.850 --> 00:10:54.610 something, another person denies your reality, 00:10:54.809 --> 00:10:58.149 you can say yes to that. Oh, I had no idea. I 00:10:58.149 --> 00:11:00.090 beg your pardon. I really messed up in there. 00:11:00.129 --> 00:11:02.370 No, you didn't. You did fine. Really? Oh, wow. 00:11:02.809 --> 00:11:05.570 I guess I mistook, you know, the boss slapping 00:11:05.570 --> 00:11:08.129 me on the back as an act of aggression. Okay, 00:11:08.230 --> 00:11:10.169 because at the end of the day, all we really 00:11:10.169 --> 00:11:14.490 want is have the details solidified so we know 00:11:14.490 --> 00:11:17.549 what's happening so we can move forward. So that's 00:11:17.549 --> 00:11:20.409 the one. You can say yes. The second one is you 00:11:20.409 --> 00:11:22.690 can fight back if you want, but then you got 00:11:22.690 --> 00:11:25.509 to escalate it, right? You can't just be like, 00:11:25.549 --> 00:11:28.129 no, you know, let's go to the park. No, I'd rather 00:11:28.129 --> 00:11:31.049 go to the store. Oh, I'd rather go to the park. 00:11:31.129 --> 00:11:32.779 No, I want to go to the store. Nothing happens. 00:11:33.460 --> 00:11:38.080 So you could, if you need to, say no. But in 00:11:38.080 --> 00:11:40.480 a way that escalates it and raises it. I want 00:11:40.480 --> 00:11:42.360 to go to the park. You know what? We've been 00:11:42.360 --> 00:11:44.080 to the park three days in a row. Let's go to 00:11:44.080 --> 00:11:46.820 a store. Let's do something different. Okay. 00:11:47.100 --> 00:11:49.440 Well, now we've escalated. Okay. Now it's firing 00:11:49.440 --> 00:11:51.559 back. And now the problem is not where we're 00:11:51.559 --> 00:11:53.600 going to go, which nobody cares about. Nobody 00:11:53.600 --> 00:11:55.600 cares if you go to the store or the mall because 00:11:55.600 --> 00:11:57.580 they're not real. What we care about is what's 00:11:57.580 --> 00:11:59.500 happening between the people. So like, oh boy, 00:11:59.600 --> 00:12:03.480 that's a huge thing. You can say no, but you've 00:12:03.480 --> 00:12:08.039 got to escalate it. And then if I'm determined, 00:12:08.259 --> 00:12:11.480 like let's say it's a conflict of you need to 00:12:11.480 --> 00:12:12.820 move out because you're not paying rent. Where 00:12:12.820 --> 00:12:14.840 the other character says, I can't move out because 00:12:14.840 --> 00:12:18.100 I have no money. And you're basically throwing 00:12:18.100 --> 00:12:21.399 me out on the street. So the character A says, 00:12:21.500 --> 00:12:23.340 you need to move out. Character B says, I can't 00:12:23.340 --> 00:12:26.480 move out. I will die out there. Back to character 00:12:26.480 --> 00:12:31.200 A. Good, good, starve. Okay, now we have a scene. 00:12:31.690 --> 00:12:34.210 I'm like, oh my gosh, they really want them out. 00:12:34.289 --> 00:12:36.730 And now it's about the people, not about leaving 00:12:36.730 --> 00:12:39.649 an apartment, which isn't real and nobody cares 00:12:39.649 --> 00:12:42.909 about. And then the third option to avoid the 00:12:42.909 --> 00:12:46.049 argument trap is to say, why would you say that? 00:12:47.250 --> 00:12:50.049 Right? Boy, I really messed up in there. Why 00:12:50.049 --> 00:12:52.809 would you say that? Boy, mom loved you best. 00:12:52.929 --> 00:12:56.649 You know? Yeah. Okay. What's this about? What's 00:12:56.649 --> 00:12:59.250 going on? Why are you bringing this up now? So 00:12:59.250 --> 00:13:01.860 that's a third option. just digging down into 00:13:01.860 --> 00:13:04.159 what the person, the character is trying to get 00:13:04.159 --> 00:13:08.580 across. All of these are better than the knee 00:13:08.580 --> 00:13:10.980 -jerk reaction of, no, no, it's not what he's 00:13:10.980 --> 00:13:13.419 talking about, and trying to gaslight the other 00:13:13.419 --> 00:13:16.019 character into accepting your point of view. 00:13:16.820 --> 00:13:19.039 Conversely, if you are being gaslit by the other 00:13:19.039 --> 00:13:22.500 character, say yes to the gaslighting. Oh, you 00:13:22.500 --> 00:13:24.679 know what? Why did I get that so wrong? Huh, 00:13:24.720 --> 00:13:26.639 thank you for being here and pointing out the 00:13:26.639 --> 00:13:32.100 reality. Now, How to avoid these that one thing 00:13:32.100 --> 00:13:34.480 about them is they're so ingrained in so many 00:13:34.480 --> 00:13:37.980 people. You know, I know people that have been 00:13:37.980 --> 00:13:40.740 doing these for years and I try to help them 00:13:40.740 --> 00:13:43.679 avoid them and stay out of them. But they're 00:13:43.679 --> 00:13:47.559 so ingrained in a lot of us. So part of our default 00:13:47.559 --> 00:13:50.159 system that it's really hard to get out of them. 00:13:50.779 --> 00:13:55.000 And I would recommend if you know you do this, 00:13:55.059 --> 00:13:57.139 if notes have been given to you that you do this. 00:13:57.820 --> 00:14:00.200 that you have someone else pointing out to you. 00:14:00.480 --> 00:14:02.440 And if it's not on an improv stage, if it's in 00:14:02.440 --> 00:14:05.139 real life, and you tend to take up an opposite 00:14:05.139 --> 00:14:07.320 position and try to talk people into your point 00:14:07.320 --> 00:14:09.600 of view rather than dealing with their point 00:14:09.600 --> 00:14:12.940 of view, ask people to tell you. I think. I don't 00:14:12.940 --> 00:14:14.960 know how else to get around it. Because in the 00:14:14.960 --> 00:14:17.379 real world, we don't listen to people, right? 00:14:17.440 --> 00:14:19.480 We just try to convince them our point of view. 00:14:19.539 --> 00:14:22.519 We like to give people advice, not because we 00:14:22.519 --> 00:14:24.899 even follow our own advice. We just want to matter. 00:14:26.379 --> 00:14:28.419 But, you know, if someone tells you something, 00:14:28.539 --> 00:14:32.620 say yes. And then figure out why they think that. 00:14:34.440 --> 00:14:36.480 You know, one thing that's different is like, 00:14:36.639 --> 00:14:39.639 it used to be okay to have different opinions. 00:14:40.539 --> 00:14:42.379 And then we just talk about why we have different 00:14:42.379 --> 00:14:45.679 opinions. But now it's not like that. Anyway, 00:14:45.779 --> 00:14:48.480 that's for this week. So thanks for tuning in. 00:14:48.620 --> 00:14:51.360 And we'll see you next time here on the So Got 00:14:51.360 --> 00:14:53.100 Improv Comedy Podcast. Thanks.