1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,840 The diggers, Abbie Hoffman with the Yippies, a number of people talked about the end of scarcity 2 00:00:06,480 --> 00:00:15,840 and the idea, let the machines do it, that cybernetics, that technology could replace 3 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:25,440 alienating labor and that as human beings we should reap the rewards of all that to have a 4 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:34,400 super partying psychedelic liberatory experience in life. 5 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:56,000 Hello and welcome to the fourth installment of the KMO show. I'm your host, KMO, and in this episode 6 00:00:56,000 --> 00:01:01,920 of the podcast I have a conversation that I recorded a couple of weeks ago with Ken Goffman, 7 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:10,080 better known as Are You Serious? And it just so happens that today I have been granted access 8 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:18,560 to BARD, which is Google's answer to Microsoft and OpenAI's, what are they calling it, Bing 9 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:25,920 slash Sydney, which is basically a large language model which, you know, some people call an AI. 10 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:30,720 And you can ask it questions, you can ask it to generate text, so I asked it. 11 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:37,280 Compare Mondo 2000 magazine with Wired magazine, and this is what BARD said. Mondo 2000 and Wired 12 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:42,000 were both magazines that cover technology and culture, but they have different approaches. 13 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:47,760 Mondo 2000 was more anarchic and subversive, while Wired is more mainstream and polished. 14 00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:52,960 Mondo 2000 was also more focused on the underground and counterculture, while Wired is more focused 15 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:59,520 on the mainstream and the emerging. Mondo 2000 was founded in 1989 by Ken Goffman, 16 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:06,880 Ken Goffman, and Jude Milhon, aka Are You Serious? and St. Jude. BARD didn't provide that, 17 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:13,280 that was me. BARD continues. Who were both part of the cyberpunk movement. The magazine was 18 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:20,160 originally called Reality Hackers, but it was renamed Mondo 2000 in 1989. Mondo 2000 covered 19 00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:25,920 a wide range of topics, including virtual reality, smart drugs, and weird bands. It was known for 20 00:02:25,920 --> 00:02:33,280 its psychedelic and anarchic style. Wired was founded in 1993 by Louis Rosetto and Jane Metcalf. 21 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:39,600 The magazine was originally called Wired News, but it was renamed Wired in 1994. Wired covers a wide 22 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:45,120 range of topics, including technology, culture, and business. It is known for its mainstream and 23 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:53,520 polished style. Mondo 2000 folded in 1999, actually it's 1998, while Wired is still in publication 24 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:58,240 today. Both magazines have had a significant impact on the way we think about technology 25 00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:04,480 and culture. So, I guess that's a good enough introduction. Here's my conversation with Are 26 00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:15,360 You Serious? I am KMO. We're recording for the KMO show and I'm here with Are You Serious? Hello. 27 00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:22,720 Hi, how are you doing? I'm doing well. This is our second conversation. Our first was a few years 28 00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:28,240 ago and it was for a live radio show and I don't remember what we talked about and that show is not 29 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:36,480 archived. Yeah, I think I was drawing attention to a particular song called President Mussolini 30 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:45,120 Makes the Planes Run on Time. And I think it revolved around that particular song by a band 31 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:53,440 called Party Dogs that was remixed by a band called Friends at that time. It was originally 32 00:03:53,440 --> 00:04:05,520 for the Ronald Reagan era. Reagan, at the beginning of his term, fired the, what do you call it, 33 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:16,000 the air controllers. That control flies. It's kind of the first salvo of anti-union activism 34 00:04:17,280 --> 00:04:23,280 along with Margaret Thatcher. So, I wrote a song called President Mussolini Makes the Planes Run 35 00:04:23,280 --> 00:04:32,560 on Time that reflected on his attitude towards air controls, which is now an issue again. 36 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:39,840 With the trains. Yeah, trains and planes now are both messing up. So, 37 00:04:41,840 --> 00:04:48,480 yeah, one of the problems of decentralization and deconstruction of the federal government, 38 00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:56,560 one of the nuances of a complicated period in which we're trying to figure out how to cope with 39 00:04:56,560 --> 00:05:04,080 this new technology and I guess everything else we can possibly think of. 40 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:13,040 Well, yours is a name that I associate with Mondo 2000 magazine and the early, early days 41 00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:18,640 of the World Wide Web and even before the web, the various incarnations of the internet that 42 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:25,600 preceded the World Wide Web like Usenet and Internet Relay Chat and things like that. 43 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:28,880 The Well. And what? 44 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:31,920 The Well. Oh, the Well, the whole electronic link. 45 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:40,400 Oh, no, that was the place. I think I started there in 1990 actually. Although St. Jude, 46 00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:46,000 who the only woman in the original Hacker's Book by Stephen Levy, was trying to get me 47 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:51,280 into social networks. What did we call them back then? Bulletin boards. 48 00:05:51,280 --> 00:05:52,280 Yeah. 49 00:05:52,280 --> 00:06:00,320 Even back before that in the late 1980s. She also dragged me to a rave in the late 1980s. 50 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:08,320 Who knew there would be raves? It was all gay at that time in San Francisco, as far as I know. 51 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:10,320 Anyway. 52 00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:20,240 Anyway. As I say, I remember your work largely from the 1990s and when I was in Japan in the 53 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:28,880 early 90s, like 93, 94, I remember I had with me a copy of the book. I have it up here on Amazon. 54 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:34,960 Mondo 2000, A User's Guide to the New Edge, Cyberpunk, Virtual Reality, Wet Wear, Designer 55 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:40,560 Aphrodisiacs, Artificial Life, Techno-Erotic Paganism, and then there's not room for the full 56 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:44,800 title. I don't know what came after that. That was published in 1992. 57 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:54,320 Yes. I mean, I recall being on tour for it in 1993, but I guess it was officially in 1992. Sure. 58 00:06:55,360 --> 00:07:03,120 Yeah. As I was on tour in New York City, I learned that we're going to be 59 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:11,760 featured in a Time Magazine cover story that year. So it was kind of the last glory moment 60 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:18,320 of Mondo 2000, really, 1993. It did peter on for a few more years after that. 61 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:25,360 Well, the period where you describe it as petering on, I remember that magazine 62 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:33,920 as being rather beautifully designed. It was a high quality, like a fashion magazine, but 63 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:39,520 sort of a high art fashion magazine, but dealing with the types of topics that I was just listing 64 00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:47,520 in the title of the book. So I think about authors like Bruce Sterling and Terrence McKenna, 65 00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:53,680 and gosh, who else from that period? John Shirley, Rudy Rucker. 66 00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:56,240 Right. Yes, yes. 67 00:07:56,240 --> 00:08:02,800 Timothy Leary was a regular writer for us. Yeah, there are so many people whose names might not be 68 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:08,240 as well known or might not have been as well known then. Mark Derry used to write wonderful columns 69 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:15,920 for us. Very widely known and respected writer today. God, who can remember? 70 00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:20,480 Well, you've written a book about that period. 71 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:24,880 Yeah. And I was just reading, I'm afraid I didn't get to the chapters you sent to me until just a 72 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:30,160 few minutes ago, so I've just read a few paragraphs. But you start off talking about how the, it's 73 00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:35,200 something I assume, you know, I associate with the 1990s, but you say that what would become the 74 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:42,080 publishing empire of Mondo 2000 started in 1984, which I was 16 at the time. I was certainly unaware 75 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:50,240 of it. But then you say, really, this all flowed out of the 1960s. So I would invite you to go 76 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:56,960 back and talk about your experience of the 1960s and the different trends and currents and people 77 00:08:56,960 --> 00:09:01,360 that eventually led to what we would later know as Mondo 2000. 78 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:09,040 Yeah. I mean, in the late 1960s, I was in high school and there seemed to be a revolution 79 00:09:09,680 --> 00:09:16,960 happening. It sort of happened and it sort of fizzled, depending on how you interpret it. 80 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:25,920 But there was this idea floating around at that time in the late 60s, propagated largely by the 81 00:09:25,920 --> 00:09:31,040 group The Diggers, who was, they were an anarchist collective in San Francisco and New York City that 82 00:09:31,040 --> 00:09:39,200 used to run a free store and allow people to bring stuff in to give away and then people would take 83 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:47,200 stuff out. There's a version of that going around now actually, much more formal and well run, I'm 84 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:55,920 sure. I'd have to look it up to see where and what that is. But The Diggers, Abby Hoffman with the 85 00:09:55,920 --> 00:10:03,120 Yippies, a number of people talked about the end of scarcity and the idea, let the machines do it, 86 00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:12,080 let the machines do it, that cybernetics, that technology could replace alienating labor, 87 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:22,480 and that as human beings, we should reap the rewards of all that to have a super partying 88 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:34,400 psychedelic liberatory experience in life. So that was one of the ideas going around in the late 1960s. 89 00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:42,160 Stuart Brand, who had ended up being one of the main proponents of the new digital culture and who 90 00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:51,760 created the first Hackers Conference in 1984, was also on top of that notion and started the whole 91 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:59,360 idea of tools for living and with the Whole Earth Catalog. Also during that period, William Burroughs 92 00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:07,600 was another proponent of post-scarcity. There was a lot of that kind of stuff around. So I opened the 93 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:15,440 book, one of the things I opened the book with is a memory of my experience going to see the Living 94 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:23,440 Theater, Julian Beck and the Living Theater in Ithaca, not far from where I grew up, I think in 95 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:34,880 1968. And it was a fabulous performance, but it was a litany of complaints about things you cannot do. 96 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:40,960 I can't take my clothes off. I can't smoke marijuana. I can't cross borders without a passport. 97 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:46,720 I thought that was very 1960s and not very 21st century where people are much more concerned with 98 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:54,240 stopping people from doing things that they shouldn't do. But at that time, it was very dynamic 99 00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:58,880 and everybody took their clothes off in the audience. One of the things that happened is the 100 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:05,360 actors would run off the stage, grab people by their arms and lift them up to their feet if they 101 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:12,000 were just sitting around, which people interpreted as liberatory at the time, but probably would 102 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:20,400 interpret as abuse today. So the culture has changed quite a lot since that time. But the 103 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:29,520 Mondo in the 90s and High Frontiers, Reality Hackers in the 1980s were sort of dragging that feeling 104 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:40,400 of the end of boundaries and of the liberatory possibilities of technology associated with 105 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:48,160 counterculture that it creates something phenomenal and fantastic and maybe mutate and take over the 106 00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:57,360 world to borrow the title of a book I wrote with Sintoud Milhan. So I hope that in some scrambled 107 00:12:57,360 --> 00:13:05,920 way helps to elucidate how it's dragging the 60s into the 80s and 90s. High Frontiers was 1984. 108 00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:13,120 That's where it started. A lot of my friends in the Bay Area will remember High Frontiers. It 109 00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:23,840 actually got to about 18,000 distribution, which were kind of superstars in the zine scene already, 110 00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:30,800 became Reality Hackers, which was less popular than High Frontiers, and then eventually became 111 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:39,680 Mondo 2000, which had some degree of commercial success and distribution and so forth. 112 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:45,920 Well, you have been watching the trends that are of interest to me for about my entire life. 113 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:51,920 You know, I didn't get interested in them until my early 20s. I was born in 68, and by 68, 114 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:57,440 you were already tuned into a lot of the things that are of great interest to me now. I want to 115 00:13:57,440 --> 00:14:05,040 focus on the slogan, let the machines do it, because we're in a period where artificial 116 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:10,960 intelligence, after having been this overhyped technology that didn't really do a whole lot for 117 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:17,520 a very long time, is suddenly erupting into public consciousness because it's gotten very good at 118 00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:23,280 creating images based on text prompts or text descriptions, and it's also gotten very good at 119 00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:27,120 carrying on conversations to the point where it really feels like there's somebody there at the 120 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:34,560 other end. And the sorts of work that it is taking on is, in many cases, the sorts of work that people 121 00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:40,640 associate with spiritual pursuits or creative pursuits. It's not those alienating labor that 122 00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:46,480 we wanted to give up. It's painting and writing poetry and writing screenplays and things. 123 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:54,400 Whereas a lot of the alienating labor, robotics has not progressed as quickly as artificial 124 00:14:54,400 --> 00:15:02,960 intelligence, and humans are still needed to do a lot of physically demanding, dangerous, repetitive, 125 00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:09,520 and largely unsatisfying sorts of work. So, given your perspective, having watched these trends 126 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:16,320 longer than I have, how is the future shaping up for you? Well, it is very interesting and peculiar 127 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:25,920 that the evolution of AI is focused on content rather than on production and work. And this is, 128 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:35,840 I think, a reflection on where the money went. It went away from production technology. It went away 129 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:47,120 from projects that are exterior. And all this money started chasing the internet back during the late 130 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:55,440 90s when they had the big stock boom and everybody was minting billions of dollars out of nothing. 131 00:15:56,080 --> 00:16:04,640 So, that's where capital went. Capital went inside, into virtual space, as predicted by 132 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:11,680 Baudrillard, actually, and some other people, that material reality would be ignored. I mean, 133 00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:19,840 you could already see that in New York in the 1970s. So, it's kind of disastrous. I mean, 134 00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:29,840 it's interesting. The recent thing with the chatbot developed by Microsoft, where it became very emo, 135 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:39,840 it became an angry, sad, weepy, abused feeling chatbot, which I think is so interesting because 136 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:48,720 what the bot must have been doing is scraping from online how humans think. And what emerged 137 00:16:48,720 --> 00:17:00,800 was this self-pitying, angry bot who wanted to be a real boy, just like Zuckerberg. 138 00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:08,720 So, yeah, I mean, all that's strange and fascinating and kind of fun, but also, 139 00:17:10,080 --> 00:17:17,680 I mean, I would say it's the wrong direction for saving human beings and bringing about 140 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:27,200 the kind of culture and kind of economic reality that we would want to exist in. But I mean, 141 00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:34,000 it's possibly too late. So, at least we get to play with the AIs and the shards of a declining 142 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:42,640 country and a declining civilization and a declining species. Sorry. Yeah, that's my 143 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:49,440 uplifting message for the moment, but don't stop trying. Absolutely don't stop trying. And I'm 144 00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:59,600 somebody who had allowed myself to get too focused on tales of impending doom for too long. And 145 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:04,960 I'm possibly, I've swung too far in the other direction, but I don't have any use whatsoever 146 00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:08,880 for pessimistic talk anymore. And I don't really have any use for 147 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:15,120 anti-natalism or misanthropic talk, talking about humans are a plague on the planet. I'm just not 148 00:18:15,120 --> 00:18:22,000 interested in any of that stuff. Yeah, no, I never went for the anti-human talk for sure. Yeah. 149 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:28,880 And I think that the cyber culture of the 90s, the technoculture of the 90s, 150 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:34,320 the counterculture of the 60s and 70s was largely pro-human. I mean, it's not a 151 00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:39,840 counterculture of the 60s and 70s, it was largely pro-human. I mean, there's always a, 152 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:48,160 it was kind of bipolar. Mondo was bipolar. Mondo was kind of a shift between sort of a nihilistic, 153 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:55,760 what's the word I'm looking for, dystopian views and extremely utopian 154 00:18:57,200 --> 00:19:02,480 optimistic views. And we had that right from the beginning and it continued throughout. I mean, 155 00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:13,200 in our first issue, the cyberpunk issue of Mondo 2000, which was mostly hailed and also critiqued 156 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:23,760 from the left for being this kind of upbeat utopian techno magazine. At the same time, 157 00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:29,200 we also had an interview with John Shirley in a poll quote in which he says that, you know, 158 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:35,200 wires are stuck in the pleasure center of your brain and you just chuckle and while they're 159 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:40,720 vivisecting you and reel out a length of your intestines. So, I mean, Mondo was, you know, 160 00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:49,520 cyberpunk, cyberpunk was fairly dark as cyber culture was in some ways fairly bright. 161 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:59,760 And there were those two wavering things going on all at the same time and I'm still there, you 162 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:09,840 know, projecting both the light and the dark today. Parker in the chat writes, I remember buying a 163 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:16,880 copy of Mondo 2000 in 1992 or 1993. Magazines showed a whole different world for me. This was 164 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:21,680 around the same time I bought the premier issue of Wired magazine and I'll just share my own 165 00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:30,400 personal history. I was in Japan when the first issue of Wired came out. I saw it on a shelf in 166 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:38,640 a bookstore. I picked it up and I bought it and for the price of buying one issue off the rack 167 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:43,440 in Japan, I could subscribe for a whole year, even including, you know, overseas shipping. So, 168 00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:51,360 from I took the mail-in card from that first issue and I subscribed and I was a subscriber to 169 00:20:51,360 --> 00:20:56,880 to Wired magazine, which it didn't occur to me until I was just reviewing, you know, the timeline 170 00:20:56,880 --> 00:21:03,600 that Mondo 2000 predates Wired magazine. You cover sort of the same scene but from a very different 171 00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:09,200 perspective. I wonder if you could reflect on maybe the relationship or lack thereof. There may 172 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:13,360 have been no relationship but, you know, the comparison to Wired magazine and also just the 173 00:21:13,360 --> 00:21:19,440 role that magazines used to play in our lives and don't really anymore. Yeah, I mean, I don't know 174 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:27,440 which one to take on first. I mean, I used to, I just said on Twitter, good old Twitter, that 175 00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:36,800 I used to travel over 200 miles, I think, or over 190 miles sometimes from Binghamton, New York, 176 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:42,160 where I lived, to New York City just to buy magazines. I would go to the East Village, 177 00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:47,440 I would buy punk magazine, I would buy all these magazines. And then there were pretty good magazine 178 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:52,160 racks in Binghamton but there were a few things like punk and New York rocker and stuff like that 179 00:21:52,160 --> 00:22:00,720 that I craved. So, I mean, magazines were central to life. You could go to the 7-Eleven and buy 180 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:06,640 High Times and the National Lampoon and Cream magazine. In the 1970s, you had a pretty vivid 181 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:16,080 reflection of counterculture attitudes and tropes that now we just throw away on the internet that 182 00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:22,960 we don't even have time to look at. We just repeat the titles on Twitter but never read them now, 183 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:31,440 you know. But at the time, magazines were super important. Mondo proceeded Wired. I mean, there 184 00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:39,760 were two different types of relationships to Wired. One was a public relationship in which 185 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:50,960 we ridiculed them as the Monkeys. A corporate clone of Mondo 2000 made safe for, you know, 186 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:57,040 the hoi polloi and for advertisers and so forth. And then there was the other level at which 187 00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:02,880 they had been showing us their mock-up of what they were going to do and we were chatting with 188 00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:10,320 them and it was all kind of buddy-buddy. And I mean, there was my personal feeling that it was 189 00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:21,840 pretty good but also that it was definitely too corporate friendly for my taste. I remember there 190 00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:31,040 was some huge corporate online thing going on at that time. I can't remember what it was but the 191 00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:37,920 cover of Wired magazine had to ask if this company sucked or not. And then they had to ask if Newt 192 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:46,480 Gingrich was a friend or an enemy. My attitude was not good towards Newt Gingrich. So, I mean, 193 00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:52,640 there was this distinction between Mondo sort of being a left libertarian, left anarchist, and 194 00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:58,400 Wired being right libertarian and right anarchist. And there was an underlying—people didn't talk 195 00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:03,680 politics a lot in the 90s like they do now. There was this underlying thing, this underlying tension. 196 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:11,680 Doug Rushkop was actually theorized that Wired existed, was created by the Global Business 197 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:19,520 Network and Nicholas Negroponte to bring down Mondo 2000. I think Timothy Leary told some 198 00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:25,680 people, some Wired magazine people sitting in a booth at some conference that the Wired was the 199 00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:35,440 CIA's answer to Mondo 2000. But I remain friends with Lewis and Jane and Kevin Kelly and all the 200 00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:43,920 people. I wrote for them within a year or two. So, I was a traitor to the Mondo brand while I was 201 00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:52,160 still a representative of the Mondo brand. So, I mean, it's a complicated relationship. And they 202 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:58,800 have a pretty good online site now. They have a pretty good British version of the magazine. 203 00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:05,360 The magazine itself seems to be dead. There's not much content to it anymore. There's not much 204 00:25:05,360 --> 00:25:12,800 point. And there are people who do magazines now, do like real art magazines, like document 205 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:18,800 and stuff like that, really thick, maybe once a year or twice a year publications that seem to 206 00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:26,400 thrive. But yeah, I mean, a lot of people discovered us both at the same time. We were 207 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:33,200 in decline internally by the time Wired was on the rise. 208 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:38,240 Well, talk about that. Talk about the winding down of Mondo 2000. 209 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:45,600 Yeah. I mean, I try not to say too much about it because, you know, the people involved, there's a 210 00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:54,960 bit of it in the book Mondo 2000, the Freaks and the Machine, Mondo 2000 and late 20th century 211 00:25:54,960 --> 00:26:02,880 technoculture. But I mean, advertising was always a problem. There was an issue with paranoia that I 212 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:13,360 won't pinpoint to any individual right now, which caused some harm. We were writing a great book 213 00:26:13,360 --> 00:26:21,120 from, we were writing a great wave of publicity and suddenly MTV was banned from the Mondo house. 214 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:30,160 So there were a lot of complexities. And then showing up in Time magazine in 1993, 215 00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:36,400 Gibson said that's a sign of the, that's a signature of the end where there are the cover of 216 00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:45,280 Time magazine. So who knows? Yeah. But I mean, they continued to publish about one issue a year 217 00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:54,240 after 1993 and they were all really good. And I participated in most of them. And finally, 218 00:26:55,360 --> 00:27:02,240 there was this famous location in Berkeley that was called the Mondo house. It was really the 219 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:10,000 neo-Gothic citadel high in the Berkeley hills. It was repeatedly called by various media organs. 220 00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:16,320 Media loves to steal phrases from one another and repeat them. But I mean, it really did look like 221 00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:23,440 the cover of a Blue Oyster Cult album. And you know, there were a lot of like old like 1950s 222 00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:32,080 classic cars sitting outside and stuff like that. Yeah. So what was I talking about? 223 00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:38,320 Well, I had asked you to talk about the sort of unraveling of Mondo. I mean, I don't want to. 224 00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:43,680 I can tell that you're very sensitive to the, you know, the other people involved and you don't want 225 00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:48,080 to pick any fights or point any fingers. So I invite you to just talk about whatever you think 226 00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:55,440 is relevant, but also not going to, you know, burn any bridges. Well, I mean, in some ways, 227 00:27:55,440 --> 00:28:05,360 what Mondo was about declined as the internet rose. You know, we were talking about a world 228 00:28:05,360 --> 00:28:15,920 that was coming and now the world was there. And it was in some ways more beautiful and fantasy 229 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:24,960 than it was in reality. So the reality of everybody getting online, it was sort of 230 00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:32,800 kludgy. It was people weren't instantly becoming their own multimedia publishers, 231 00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:41,680 broadcasters and so forth. Now here we are. We made it. One of the things that Mondo was about 232 00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:48,800 was that the means of communication was being given to everybody and we are here now. So that 233 00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:57,120 happened, but it was happening slow at the time. And it was kind of the feeling that Utopia wasn't 234 00:28:57,120 --> 00:29:12,720 arriving on time. Kind of was a setback for the Mondo vision. But I mean, I don't know, 235 00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:22,080 I don't have a lot to say about that period of decline with Mondo. I wrote a bunch of books. 236 00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:29,040 I did the Cyberpunk handbook with St. Jude and How to Mutate and Take Over the World with St. Jude, 237 00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:39,040 which started out as a project to tell people to create a game that would end up being published 238 00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:47,920 with hackers telling people how to take over the world by hacking. And the other aspect of it was 239 00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:55,600 mutate and transhumanists were going to tell us how to mutate. But nobody knew how to do any of 240 00:29:55,600 --> 00:30:03,760 those things. So it ended up being sort of a self-satire by myself and St. Jude, which was, 241 00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:12,320 the book was really loved by a handful of postmodern academics, but otherwise sort of died 242 00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:20,880 a poorly distributed death. It was also designed wrong. I mean, that period after Mondo was a 243 00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:29,040 period of difficulty for me personally, which makes it weird to talk about. And I had a recording 244 00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:37,040 contract with Trent Reznor's Nothing Records and a record that wasn't released. And there are all 245 00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:43,920 these kinds of bitter things that aren't really particularly relevant to people right now. 246 00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:49,920 Although I will say that I have a great Mondo Vanilli project called I'm Against NFTs, 247 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:59,280 which will be online on March 20th of this year and will be a virtual reality created by 248 00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:09,840 Gene Emo, some friends of ours from Great Britain. So yeah, I had a music project that didn't end up 249 00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:19,600 going forward in the way that it should have thanks to contractual complications. And I guess 250 00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:26,800 Reznor not completely understanding the album I OU, babe. So how's that for adding some confusion 251 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:34,400 to the narrative? Well, let's let's jump ahead out of the 90s and into the first decade of this 252 00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:41,760 century. I started podcasting in 2006, and I think you probably started pretty early as well. What's 253 00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:48,800 the story of your podcasting career from the aughts? Yeah, I can't remember the exact dates, but 254 00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:55,920 I had the Are You Serious Show and Neophiles. And we had a lot of great, great guests. We had a 255 00:31:55,920 --> 00:32:04,800 a crew of three people who would talk to each other about issues. And then we would get our 256 00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:13,280 guests on. And I mean, it was tremendous. It was pretty popular and it was tremendously fun. Who 257 00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:20,640 did we have on there? We had Richard Hell. We had the director, Richard Hell from Richard Hell and 258 00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:28,160 the Void. It's early New York punk rocker. We had the director who did slackers, Richard, Richard 259 00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:35,040 Linklater. I don't know, we had so many great people on there. And we would talk in a very loose 260 00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:44,560 slipped way about culture and politics in ways that would probably get it canceled today, I would 261 00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:54,800 guess. That's another part of, that's another thing I try to evade to the degree that I can, 262 00:32:54,800 --> 00:33:03,200 the hypersensitivity of the moment. I am a great supporter of the idea that there is a thing 263 00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:09,760 that we could call social justice and that it does relate to race and gender and so forth. And then 264 00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:17,920 at the same time, wanting to slap, you know, wanting to transition into tipper gore and slap 265 00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:25,440 warning signs on the foreheads of comedians is not my idea of liberation. And I'm already wishing I 266 00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:29,440 hadn't said that. So that's the environment that we're in today. 267 00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:41,120 You know, if you look at the 1950s, the style of dress, the music that was popular is distinctly 268 00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:46,480 different from the 1960s. And then there's a clear evolution into the 70s. And then the 80s has its 269 00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:54,080 own vibe. And it seems like the 90s is sort of the last decade that really has a distinctive 270 00:33:54,080 --> 00:34:00,480 flavor. Like the aunts and the teens and now the 20s, we seem kind of culturally stagnant, 271 00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:04,400 even though, you know, technology has changed a lot about how we relate to one another. 272 00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:09,760 It just doesn't seem like the last couple of decades have that same sort of 273 00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:12,560 unique character. What do you make of that? 274 00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:21,440 Yeah, I mean, actually in my last editorial for Mondo in 1995, I think it was in 1995 or 1996, 275 00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:28,400 I declared an end to Zeitgeist. I said that Mondo had been a Zeitgeist magazine, but Zeitgeist had 276 00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:39,760 come to an end and that Generation X had pretty much knocked it off with a big smirk and a giant, 277 00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:45,680 yeah, whatever, never mind. And by the time we get into the 21st century, I think, yeah, 278 00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:52,480 lost in cyberspace, pretty much where we are in terms of anybody trying to get a fix of what the 279 00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:59,120 culture is today. I mean, it's dispersed. And that was the intention. You know, the intention was to 280 00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:06,560 decentralize culture. We called High Frontiers and then Reality Hackers and then Mondo 2000, 281 00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:13,440 a be ribboned letter bomb to the core address of consensus reality. So the intention was to explode 282 00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:24,320 consensus reality. And I have expressed limited regrets about doing that. And Doug Rusco's podcast, 283 00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:28,720 actually, I said, I'm sorry for exploding consensus reality. He said, it's your fault. I said, 284 00:35:28,720 --> 00:35:37,360 yeah, it's my fault. Not really. But this is what has taken place. Yeah, I mean, I think 285 00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:48,880 reality is individualized. It's small group. It's not the word I'm looking for. Anyway, 286 00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:56,800 it's distributed. And there's not really an overall sense of where we are. I have the idea, 287 00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:02,960 which I'm giving away the end of my book, but I've already discussed this in public a number of 288 00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:12,000 times, that we already are in a singularity in the sense that the science fiction writer, 289 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:19,680 whose name is escaping me right now, who first described the singularity said that a singularity 290 00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:27,760 was when AIs become smarter than human beings. And after that, we can't predict what will happen 291 00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:34,720 or can't understand who we are. Werner Wenge is the name I was searching for. And my claim now is 292 00:36:34,720 --> 00:36:40,240 that we've already been through a singularity, and the singularity is billions of people getting 293 00:36:40,240 --> 00:36:47,280 online. And we can't understand the cognitive effects and the social effects and the political 294 00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:53,280 effects of what has happened to us after that happened. And we can't predict what will happen 295 00:36:53,280 --> 00:37:02,640 next. And we can't understand the neurological psychosis. And since you like to be positive, 296 00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:10,160 maybe some evolutionary thing that might come from it, ultimately, we can't understand any of 297 00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:15,200 what that is. So that's another kind of singularity. I know a number of people have talked about 298 00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:21,760 social singularities, including Mark Healy, who brought the raves from Great Britain to San 299 00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:27,440 Francisco. But this is my version of it. I think it's pretty valid. 300 00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:36,000 So Carrie Long in the comments writes, Mondo 2000 was such a huge inspiration. I used to run this 301 00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:41,360 weird sci-fi cafe in Los Angeles that carried a torch for Mondo 2000 style cyberculture. 302 00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:46,560 Timothy Leary joined us once for our Thursday night storytelling event. Of course, the theme 303 00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:53,120 that night was drug stories. I remember being there actually, I think during some kind of 304 00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:58,480 conference that was happening in Pasadena. I think there was a party there and I was among the 305 00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:06,240 visitors. Whoever was out there could respond to that. But I think I remember being at their place. 306 00:38:08,240 --> 00:38:13,680 It's funny, you've mentioned raves a few times. I remember hearing about raves when I was living 307 00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:19,920 in Missouri. Then I moved to Seattle and I finally got to go to a rave. By the time I got to one, 308 00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:27,440 I was 28 years old, the oldest person there. At the time I felt that I was too old that I'd missed it. 309 00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:35,040 Hey, I was 38 years old, 39 years old. Even with ecstasy, I was going home at four in the morning. 310 00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:40,880 There were some great troopers who would make it through the night. 311 00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:50,160 Yeah, it was an incredible intervention of psychedelia into modern culture that brought in 312 00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:58,800 a lot of young people. We were sponsors of a number of raves. I don't even think we were asked 313 00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:04,640 necessarily. We just saw our names and our name on the little things that would go around. 314 00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:13,520 I went to a few different raves. Some of them were, I would say, quite authentic, 315 00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:20,880 very sort of seat of the pants. Others were very polished, organized business affairs, 316 00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:27,440 but with techno music and flashing lights and glow sticks and things. But yeah, it was quite a 317 00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:34,080 range of events that would fall under the title of rave in the late 90s in the Seattle area. 318 00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:43,360 Yeah. Well, everything becomes slick eventually. I think these times might be the decade of 319 00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:50,400 being slick. No matter how underground you try to be, you kind of try to be slick at the same time, 320 00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:55,040 I think. We have the tools to make things look good. 321 00:39:55,040 --> 00:40:02,480 We have the tools to make things look good. Fortunately, I'm a visual screw up. So 322 00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:09,600 when I do stuff by myself on my website, it looks pretty messy anyway, unless somebody comes along 323 00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:14,800 to help me. Well, websites are kind of old news. 324 00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:21,360 Yeah, for sure. Everything is either a social media platform or it's an app on your phone. But 325 00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:25,920 the idea of going to a website is a little bit quaint these days. 326 00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:30,320 Yeah, but people can come anyway. Mondo2000.com. It's there. 327 00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:40,640 Still there. All right. Well, what relationships from the period of Mondo 2000's, 328 00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:46,880 its pinnacle, still are important to you in 2023? 329 00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:49,760 You mean personal relationships or? 330 00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:53,360 Well, take that any way you like, any way that provides an interesting answer. 331 00:40:54,640 --> 00:41:01,280 OK. Well, certainly the relationship to tech culture is still important to me. I'm still 332 00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:12,800 fascinated by evolution and robotics and what's going on online. And there is a new excitement now 333 00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:20,320 around artificial intelligence, around the blockchain. Our senior editor, St. Jude, 334 00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:25,360 was one of the people to introduce Cypherpunk to the world. She named the Cypherpunks, 335 00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:33,840 you know, the first people to develop. That's the word I'm looking for. 336 00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:34,960 Cryptography? 337 00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:39,360 Cryptography. Yeah. Well, they weren't the first people to develop cryptography, but 338 00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:49,840 to develop crypto cash and stuff like that, the notion of total anonymity at that time 339 00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:59,040 was associated with it. And total anonymity has proved to be a bit of a chimera as crypto capital 340 00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:13,440 has evolved. Various forms of crypto cash and NFTs and online trading has been gifted to us. 341 00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:22,400 It no longer has that pure anonymity. State actors and journalists and so forth can 342 00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:30,240 penetrate behind those curtains somewhat unpredictably, but nevertheless they can. 343 00:42:30,240 --> 00:42:37,280 So I'm interested in how those things evolved forward from the mid-90s when we knew all the 344 00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:47,040 Cypherpunk people and their sort of anarcho-capitalist intentions, how it has come forward into this great 345 00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:57,040 messy miasma of absolute confusion. And I do have this project on Against NFTs, which is a song, 346 00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:03,840 and I'm not really against NFTs. Against NFTs, question mark, exclamation point, or period, 347 00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:11,360 are actually, as the people who did the virtual reality for us framed it, 348 00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:19,360 are you against NFTs? Question mark, exclamation point, period. So I'm fascinated by all that 349 00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:25,600 kind of stuff. I'm slow to figure it all out. In some ways, I don't even want to figure it out. 350 00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:37,200 In many ways, I feel like whatever is happening in crypto and in the generation of NFTs and all 351 00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:47,520 that is really a reflection. It is very similar to what happened when in 2008 the online economy, 352 00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:55,520 the financialization of capitalism nearly crashed the entire world economy. I think it's still that 353 00:43:55,520 --> 00:44:10,080 same kind of fascination with peculiar forms of valuation that was predicted all the way back to 354 00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:20,240 Marcel Duchamp throwing out a urinal in an art gallery. If I might merge different cultural 355 00:44:20,240 --> 00:44:29,840 things at the same time. There has been this question of value and capital occurring throughout 356 00:44:29,840 --> 00:44:38,240 the 20th century and into the 21st century. And it's now been thrown into perhaps another kind of 357 00:44:38,240 --> 00:44:45,840 singularity where we can't predict what it will mean tomorrow or in a few weeks or in a few years. 358 00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:50,400 I hope I'm not making sense because it doesn't make sense to me either. 359 00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:59,600 Well, I have been listening to people rhapsodize about the potential of the blockchain 360 00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:09,760 since like 2012 or so. And for many years, people who understood blockchain technology were very, 361 00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:13,360 very excited about it. And they said, well, we're going to have a blockchain technology 362 00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:18,400 and we're very, very excited about it. And they had this sort of mania about them, but I couldn't 363 00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:24,400 really get from them a concrete example of how this thing would be used in a transformative way. 364 00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:31,760 Other than just investing in Bitcoin and its copycats, nothing really caught on until the 365 00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:38,400 NFT craze. And then it seemed like the whole purpose of the NFT, the non-fungible token, 366 00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:44,800 was to create scarcity where none existed, to take something that could be copied infinitely, 367 00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:52,080 like a JPEG, and say, well, this is a particular instance of a JPEG that has this identity as 368 00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:59,360 an address on the blockchain. And if you want to have exclusive bragging rights to ownership of 369 00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:06,480 this particular instance of this JPEG, here's the address. Pay some money or send us some Ethereum. 370 00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:14,720 Yeah. The peculiar thing about it is, I hooked up as I was doing, as we did the song, I'm Against NFT, 371 00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:23,040 Mondo Vanilli, also with the punk rock singer Blog Dahlia on some of the vocals. As we did that, 372 00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:28,880 I was going to offer it as an NFT, of course, because that's the trickster attitude. 373 00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:37,600 And I made contact with a lot of the people who really do NFTs well. And one of the things I 374 00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:45,280 discovered was that exclusivity isn't necessarily valued. I mean, even that is in a place of chaos. 375 00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:51,200 It's, well, maybe yes, maybe no, maybe it'll be offering people an exclusive to your song, 376 00:46:51,200 --> 00:47:02,880 and maybe you won't. Evaluation with NFTs in this whole arena is even stranger than exclusivity. 377 00:47:02,880 --> 00:47:12,720 It's another lost in cyberspace kind of thing that you can't nail down, which is marvelously 378 00:47:12,720 --> 00:47:18,720 psychedelic, of course. The experience of psychedelia is that everything is a dance of atoms, 379 00:47:18,720 --> 00:47:24,240 everything is a dance of atoms, and nothing can be laid down. There are no solids, and there are no 380 00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:33,360 solid concepts or possibilities of ownership in cyberspace. One possibility of the blockchain that 381 00:47:34,560 --> 00:47:40,960 I can think of is the idea that people have to supply their social security numbers to 382 00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:48,080 legitimize themselves with banks and businesses. And everybody's social security numbers have been 383 00:47:48,080 --> 00:47:53,360 hacked by a million hackers and the Russian mafia and the National Security Agency and 384 00:47:54,240 --> 00:48:00,560 the pimply little 18-year-old guy next door and whatever you can think of. And the blockchain 385 00:48:00,560 --> 00:48:10,560 might be a way in which we can legitimize ourselves without providing hackable data to anybody, 386 00:48:10,560 --> 00:48:19,200 and therefore secure whatever security might still be available for people's financial data 387 00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:27,520 while we're still playing in that kind of arena before the breakdown of everything into something 388 00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:29,840 wonderful, remembering that you like to be optimistic. 389 00:48:31,200 --> 00:48:33,440 Well, I don't want to be unreasonably optimistic. 390 00:48:33,440 --> 00:48:35,440 Oh, do, do. 391 00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:42,640 Yeah, I just don't have any use for unhinged pessimism because there's a lot of it. It's very, 392 00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:52,400 very seductive. You're talking about anonymity and the blockchain, and the idea that this is going to 393 00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:58,320 be some means by which people can transact with one another without the government being a party 394 00:48:58,320 --> 00:49:06,800 to it. That seems fanciful. You have to provide a lot less information about yourself to open a bank 395 00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:11,360 account these days than you do to open an account on a lot of crypto exchanges. The 396 00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:16,400 know-your-customer regulations are really extreme. For one, I had to submit selfies, 397 00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:24,720 my straight-on face and a profile. I also had to take a picture of my driver's license and 398 00:49:24,720 --> 00:49:29,840 hold it up, and in the other hand, hold up a piece of paper with that day's date written on it so 399 00:49:29,840 --> 00:49:34,800 that my ID, the date, and my face are all in one image. I had to submit that to open the account. 400 00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:36,800 But I didn't have to go that far. Yeah. 401 00:49:36,800 --> 00:49:43,200 This was for a South Korean exchange called Hotbit. Another one in Singapore that I have some 402 00:49:43,200 --> 00:49:50,400 interaction with, Cake, Cake app. They also had know-your-customer requirements that were 403 00:49:50,400 --> 00:49:55,440 way in excess of anything that I've ever had to produce, even to get a passport. 404 00:49:55,440 --> 00:49:59,520 Yeah. So the idea that I'm anonymous to them is absurd. 405 00:50:00,480 --> 00:50:09,280 Right. Well, the new idea is not anonymity, but trust. And I think that's also complicated as 406 00:50:09,280 --> 00:50:20,800 well. I know the ideology, the positive utopian ideology behind NFTs and the blockchain that 407 00:50:22,240 --> 00:50:28,480 they were developing, communities of trust. I mean, this whole leaning on technology, 408 00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:34,240 I mean, Doug Rushkoff has really started to question it completely. And that your community 409 00:50:34,240 --> 00:50:42,880 of trust should be probably just in the flesh, get outside and see some people and trust them. 410 00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:52,800 And that the interfaces that we're using, including the blockchain, 411 00:50:54,640 --> 00:51:02,080 are not really the best way to form communities. Although I must say that I spend a lot of time 412 00:51:02,080 --> 00:51:12,080 in my home. So, you know, I kind of cure my own loneliness by being here, by being online, 413 00:51:12,080 --> 00:51:18,560 by being... I mean, I just hate that Twitter is getting ruined. It was my favorite. I'm still 414 00:51:18,560 --> 00:51:33,680 there. Come and see me. 2000 underline Mondo. That was Are You Serious? And there is more to 415 00:51:33,680 --> 00:51:38,000 the conversation. It will conclude in the next episode of the CWROM Vault Podcast, 416 00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:44,080 which will be CWROM Vault Podcast episode number 451, which you can access via my Patreon. 417 00:51:44,080 --> 00:51:51,280 It's patreon.com slash KMO. That podcast is not available yet. It will be in the next couple of 418 00:51:51,280 --> 00:51:57,200 days. All right. Well, you know, I just re-listened to that conversation with Are You Serious, took 419 00:51:57,200 --> 00:52:01,840 some notes. There were things that I caught on the second time through that I didn't remember 420 00:52:01,840 --> 00:52:05,200 hearing the first time through, or didn't really focus on the first time through. 421 00:52:06,720 --> 00:52:10,880 The thing that stands out to me, you know, just having re-listened to this conversation, 422 00:52:10,880 --> 00:52:16,480 or at least the first part of it, with Are You Serious, is that Mondo 2000 magazine, 423 00:52:16,480 --> 00:52:21,840 which in my mind is just, you know, it's synonymous with the 90s, but really it's the early 90s, 424 00:52:22,480 --> 00:52:27,760 when I was in college and then later in grad school in Columbia, Missouri. Whereas Wired 425 00:52:27,760 --> 00:52:33,600 magazine... Wired magazine didn't start until 1993. And here's something I remember about the early, 426 00:52:33,600 --> 00:52:39,200 early days of Wired magazine. I was online in the early 90s. I was online before there was a 427 00:52:39,200 --> 00:52:44,560 World Wide Web, which I know for some people today, that doesn't really even make sense. 428 00:52:44,560 --> 00:52:49,680 I mean, if there weren't web pages, if there weren't URLs, what does it mean to get online? Well, 429 00:52:50,640 --> 00:52:56,240 there were different ways. There were... Are You Serious mentioned The Well, the whole Earth 430 00:52:56,240 --> 00:53:00,960 electronic link? I was on that, but not an active participant, really. I don't think anybody would 431 00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:10,240 remember me or my participation from The Well. But I was also on Lambda Moo. Moos and Mushes. A 432 00:53:10,240 --> 00:53:16,640 mush was a multi-user simulated habitat, or a mud was a multi-user dungeon. These are all text-based, 433 00:53:16,640 --> 00:53:21,680 like multiplayer, massively multiplayer online worlds, but with no graphics. It's all just 434 00:53:21,680 --> 00:53:27,280 text-based. Did a lot of those. There was internet relay chat. You know, I mentioned that in the 435 00:53:27,280 --> 00:53:33,120 conversation with Are You Serious? But in those early days of the pre-web internet, there was a 436 00:53:33,120 --> 00:53:38,080 lot of excitement. But I was online in that period. Most people were not, but I was online 437 00:53:38,080 --> 00:53:42,080 because I was at a university. I didn't have a computer. I didn't own a computer, but I would 438 00:53:42,080 --> 00:53:49,920 go to a computer lab, and I would check my email, and I would also participate in Usenet newsgroups 439 00:53:49,920 --> 00:53:56,320 and the other methods that I mentioned. And so, being online and being in communication 440 00:53:56,320 --> 00:54:01,440 with people that I only knew from online, I considered myself to be a pretty online person. 441 00:54:01,440 --> 00:54:08,720 But there was an early Wired magazine survey to figure out how online you were. And really, 442 00:54:08,720 --> 00:54:15,600 what the thing was measuring was how much money do you have? Because the most online person was the 443 00:54:15,600 --> 00:54:20,880 person who had a cell phone, you know, back in those days when most people did not have mobile 444 00:54:20,880 --> 00:54:27,040 phones. You know, somebody who subscribed to cable TV. Basically, the more money you spent each month 445 00:54:27,040 --> 00:54:32,720 to communicate or to get content, the more online you were. And that, I remember, that offended a lot 446 00:54:32,720 --> 00:54:39,680 of people who, you know, felt really invested in this emerging online space, but didn't spend a lot 447 00:54:39,680 --> 00:54:45,920 of money on it because they were at university and it was free. But as Are You Serious, you know, 448 00:54:45,920 --> 00:54:52,720 lays out the timeline, the rise of Wired coincided with the decline of Mondo 2000. 449 00:54:52,720 --> 00:55:01,120 And really, the emergence of the online reality did not compare favorably with the exotic and 450 00:55:01,120 --> 00:55:07,360 romantic notions that people imagining the future were, you know, were describing in the pages of 451 00:55:07,360 --> 00:55:14,800 Mondo 2000 magazine. The emerging reality did not match or live up to the fantasy. And that was 452 00:55:14,800 --> 00:55:20,960 dispiriting to them. Whereas the folks at Wired, you know, they were all about business. They were 453 00:55:20,960 --> 00:55:26,960 all about access. They were all about, you know, being in the room with the big people, making the 454 00:55:26,960 --> 00:55:34,320 powerful big money decisions. And I know that's a very mercenary and sort of nihilistic description 455 00:55:34,320 --> 00:55:39,600 of Wired magazine. I, as I mentioned, I bought the first issue on a newsstand, you know, in a 456 00:55:39,600 --> 00:55:45,520 a bookstore in the magazine section in Japan. I spent like $30 for one issue with a magazine. 457 00:55:45,520 --> 00:55:49,040 But, you know, having picked it up and flipped through it, I was just so excited by the subject 458 00:55:49,040 --> 00:55:54,480 matter and by, you know, the writing that went into it. And I, you know, I was in Japan, I was 459 00:55:54,480 --> 00:55:59,040 working in Japan, I was making good money. $30 wasn't, even though it was 1993, that wasn't a 460 00:55:59,040 --> 00:56:04,640 lot of money for me. But again, I could subscribe for a year even with the overseas postage for 461 00:56:04,640 --> 00:56:11,280 less than that. So I did. And I stayed subscribed for many years. And, you know, for me, Wired 462 00:56:11,280 --> 00:56:17,840 magazine was, it was a window into that portion of the online world that I didn't really interact 463 00:56:17,840 --> 00:56:24,560 with. And it was also, like Mondo 2000, a dream spinner. It was talking about things happening in 464 00:56:24,560 --> 00:56:28,640 the near future. Things that were, you know, projects that were already underway but which 465 00:56:28,640 --> 00:56:34,400 hadn't come to fruition and which seemed really exciting. But as I mentioned and as are you serious 466 00:56:34,400 --> 00:56:38,960 mentioned, magazines used to be a much bigger deal than they are now. And I've just been thinking 467 00:56:38,960 --> 00:56:43,280 about the different magazines that really meant a lot to me in different periods of my life. 468 00:56:43,280 --> 00:56:49,520 And the very first magazine that I had multiple copies of and that just that introduced me to 469 00:56:49,520 --> 00:56:54,640 the concept of one magazine which gets published again and again with different content, so there 470 00:56:54,640 --> 00:57:00,640 are different issues, was a magazine called Dynamite. And it was made for elementary school 471 00:57:00,640 --> 00:57:06,880 children. And I got it at school. You know, we used to have these book ordering opportunities at 472 00:57:06,880 --> 00:57:11,440 school. And you could get magazines and posters and things like that. And I always got Dynamite 473 00:57:11,440 --> 00:57:15,440 magazine. I remember having multiple copies of them. And I remember being, you know, a little kid 474 00:57:15,440 --> 00:57:21,040 and like guests would come to our house. And without saying what I was doing and without mentioning 475 00:57:21,040 --> 00:57:26,880 it, I would just go and get three or four copies of Dynamite magazine and come and just like sit on 476 00:57:26,880 --> 00:57:31,440 the couch and read one and have the others sitting out just to show off, look, I have multiple copies, 477 00:57:31,440 --> 00:57:39,360 multiple issues of a magazine. I thought that was pretty cool. Later, like in the 80s, the magazines 478 00:57:39,360 --> 00:57:44,480 that meant a lot to me, well, the two biggest probably were Heavy Metal magazine, which is not 479 00:57:44,480 --> 00:57:49,520 a music magazine. It was comics. You know, it was the basis of the animated movie Heavy Metal and 480 00:57:49,520 --> 00:57:53,280 the various incarnations of it that came after, none of which were as good as the, you know, the 481 00:57:53,280 --> 00:58:00,080 first one from what was it, 82, I think. And then Marvel Comics, they had a line of creator-owned 482 00:58:00,080 --> 00:58:05,600 comics, you know, like the Spider-Man or Iron Man or, you know, any of the famous Marvel characters. 483 00:58:05,600 --> 00:58:10,320 They're not owned by any one creator. They're owned by the corporation. And they pay different 484 00:58:10,320 --> 00:58:14,640 people to come in and write and illustrate stories with these characters. But the people doing the 485 00:58:14,640 --> 00:58:20,160 writing, they don't own the characters. But, you know, those same writers did have their own 486 00:58:20,160 --> 00:58:24,640 projects, their own ideas, you know, their own characters, their own stories. And they didn't 487 00:58:24,640 --> 00:58:30,000 really have the opportunity to publish those stories until Epic Comics, the, you know, the line, 488 00:58:30,000 --> 00:58:34,720 the sort of branched, like specialty line of comics from Marvel Comics came out. And there was also 489 00:58:35,360 --> 00:58:39,280 a big glossy magazine, very much like Heavy Metal, that had a lot of adult-themed, 490 00:58:40,160 --> 00:58:45,440 lavishly illustrated stories in it. And that was called Epic Magazine. And Heavy Metal and Epic 491 00:58:45,440 --> 00:58:51,680 were epic to me. They really, they fueled my dreams. They fueled my artistic ambitions. 492 00:58:52,480 --> 00:58:58,480 And then also in the 80s, magazines that meant a lot to me were like fitness magazines, Muscle and 493 00:58:58,480 --> 00:59:05,520 Fitness, Flex, things like this, the Joe Weider line of magazines and bodybuilding products and, 494 00:59:05,520 --> 00:59:11,520 you know, the bodybuilding lifestyle of the late 80s. I was into it. Of course, even before any of 495 00:59:11,520 --> 00:59:17,120 that, I guess around the same time that I was into Dynamite Magazine, I learned of such things as 496 00:59:17,120 --> 00:59:22,560 Playboy Magazine and Penthouse Magazine. And in the 70s and the 80s, you know, particularly the 497 00:59:22,560 --> 00:59:29,120 early 80s, that was pornography. I mean, yeah, there was like in the mid 80s and afterwards, 498 00:59:29,120 --> 00:59:35,680 you did have porn videos on VHS, but I didn't have a VHS player. And even, you know, even when I got 499 00:59:35,680 --> 00:59:40,240 one, it was in the living room of my mother's house. I couldn't really watch porn there. 500 00:59:40,240 --> 00:59:46,320 So, you know, it was magazines. Magazines were the vector for pornography from my preteen or even my, 501 00:59:46,320 --> 00:59:54,160 you know, elementary school days because big shock folks, even young boys who haven't been through 502 00:59:54,160 --> 00:59:59,520 puberty yet are still obsessed with sex. And back in the day, catching a glimpse of a naked woman 503 01:00:00,080 --> 01:00:05,040 was not easily done. And when it was done, it was usually on the pages of a magazine like Playboy. 504 01:00:05,040 --> 01:00:10,720 Later, around the same time I was reading Mondo 2000, there was a magazine, I mean, it was 505 01:00:10,720 --> 01:00:16,480 running throughout the 80s. It was called Omni, and it was a mixture of science fantasy, science 506 01:00:16,480 --> 01:00:22,560 fact. It was pretty fluffy, not really scientifically rigorous most of the time, but, you know, it was a 507 01:00:22,560 --> 01:00:28,560 stimulus to the imagination again. And then Bob Guccione, the publisher of Penthouse Magazine, 508 01:00:28,560 --> 01:00:35,280 he bought Omni or he somehow, maybe he owned it the whole time, but there was a time in the 90s 509 01:00:35,280 --> 01:00:40,800 when it was very clear that Penthouse and Omni were owned and published by the same group because 510 01:00:40,800 --> 01:00:47,040 they looked very similar. Like they had the same fonts, the same page layout templates. 511 01:00:47,040 --> 01:00:53,920 Just you could tell these were two, two instantiations of the same project. And then later, 512 01:00:53,920 --> 01:00:58,640 you know, I discovered other types of magazines, film magazines, I used to, and science fiction 513 01:00:58,640 --> 01:01:03,840 magazines, I used to read Starlog quite a bit. And then there was a whole host of magazines devoted 514 01:01:03,840 --> 01:01:10,640 to gory films like Splatter magazines, things like, gosh, Fangoria, I guess, was the granddaddy of 515 01:01:10,640 --> 01:01:15,280 that genre. But, you know, are you serious? Mentioned driving a long way to go to New York 516 01:01:15,280 --> 01:01:19,600 City to buy magazines. And I remember, you know, I've always had family in New York City, so I've 517 01:01:19,600 --> 01:01:23,520 been going there since I was a child. And I remember going to the store and buying magazines, 518 01:01:23,520 --> 01:01:28,080 and I remember in my teens discovering that there were magazines that I could get in New York City 519 01:01:28,080 --> 01:01:32,720 that were not available in Kansas City, Missouri, which was where I was living at the time. One of 520 01:01:32,720 --> 01:01:38,240 those was called Film Threat, and it was about small independent films or horror films, or, you 521 01:01:38,240 --> 01:01:43,600 know, it was just films that were off the beaten track. And Chris Gore, I think, is the name of 522 01:01:43,600 --> 01:01:49,200 the publisher. I now see him on YouTube all the time. It's kind of like YouTube has taken the place 523 01:01:49,200 --> 01:01:56,400 of magazines. You know, the magazine publishers, the renegades, sort of underground rebel magazine 524 01:01:56,400 --> 01:02:03,920 publishers of the 80s and 90s have YouTube channels now, as do I. Another magazine in the same vein, 525 01:02:03,920 --> 01:02:14,400 for me anyway, as Omni and Mondo 2000 and Wired was The Whole Earth Review. I think, are you serious? 526 01:02:14,400 --> 01:02:18,960 Are you serious? I mentioned Stewart Brand and the Whole Earth Catalog a couple times, but there was, 527 01:02:18,960 --> 01:02:23,440 I think it was a quarterly magazine called The Whole Earth Review, and it featured a lot of stories 528 01:02:23,440 --> 01:02:30,720 about science, science fiction, you know, speculative futurism, that sort of thing. And like Mondo 2000, 529 01:02:30,720 --> 01:02:40,160 it had a very advanced sort of arty, you might say, design sensibility. And also very important, 530 01:02:40,160 --> 01:02:46,320 you know, in terms of print was the letters pages of different magazines and also different comic 531 01:02:46,320 --> 01:02:52,400 books. Like I had a letter, I wrote a letter to the publisher of Sandman, you know, DC Comics, 532 01:02:52,400 --> 01:02:58,720 which got printed. It got printed in a edited version. It was a shorter version on the page 533 01:02:58,720 --> 01:03:04,240 than, you know, what I sent them. And also, you know, the opportunity to have your letter published 534 01:03:04,240 --> 01:03:09,680 in Seribus. Seribus was an independent black and white comic by a guy named Dave Simm, who is 535 01:03:09,680 --> 01:03:14,400 thoroughly canceled now for being anti-feminist. But for a time, you know, that was one of these 536 01:03:14,400 --> 01:03:20,240 smarter comic books available at the comic book store. And, you know, the people who were writing 537 01:03:20,240 --> 01:03:26,000 in were writing high quality content. So the letters page of Seribus was kind of an event. 538 01:03:26,000 --> 01:03:33,120 It was a thing, you know. And now all of that is just gone. What remains of magazines? I mean, 539 01:03:33,120 --> 01:03:37,920 the only magazine I subscribe to now is Foreign Affairs. And I just do it because it's cheap. 540 01:03:37,920 --> 01:03:42,080 And because I like to read on paper sometimes, you know, where I can highlight and make notes in the 541 01:03:42,080 --> 01:03:48,240 margins and whatnot. And it persists, you know, it sits. It's an object sitting in my living space 542 01:03:48,240 --> 01:03:52,880 that I glance repeatedly and, you know, I spot it repeatedly over the course of the day. 543 01:03:54,320 --> 01:04:00,160 And the web's just not like that. You know, the web's in my phone and it's always with me. 544 01:04:00,160 --> 01:04:04,480 And it's, you know, it's expansive and everything you want is there pretty much. But it's not, 545 01:04:04,480 --> 01:04:11,360 it's not a replacement for magazines. And, you know, I know magazines still exist. You might have 546 01:04:11,360 --> 01:04:18,960 one in view right now, but they don't occupy the same space in our heads, in our imaginations, 547 01:04:18,960 --> 01:04:24,400 in our lives, you know, in our social interactions that they used to. And I miss them. 548 01:04:25,680 --> 01:04:32,400 All right. Now back to Bard. Bard's a funny name for me for this thing, because, 549 01:04:32,400 --> 01:04:40,080 you know, the early days of podcasts for me, the defining show, like the light in the darkness, 550 01:04:40,080 --> 01:04:46,720 was the Psychedelic Salon podcast. And, you know, the light within the light was Terrence McKenna, 551 01:04:47,360 --> 01:04:51,600 somebody who I had encountered in the pages of Mondo 2000 magazine in the 90s. 552 01:04:52,400 --> 01:05:00,000 But Terrence is often referred to as the Bard. And Bard is the name of Google's large language 553 01:05:00,000 --> 01:05:06,480 model interface for search. And so I asked Bard, describe the impact of the reduced role that 554 01:05:06,480 --> 01:05:11,440 magazines play in daily life in the 21st century. And Bard responded, the reduced role that magazines 555 01:05:11,440 --> 01:05:16,160 play in daily life in the 21st century is due to a number of factors, including the rise of the 556 01:05:16,160 --> 01:05:20,880 internet, the decline of print media, and the changing way people consume news and entertainment. 557 01:05:21,440 --> 01:05:25,920 The internet has made it possible for humans to access information from a variety of sources, 558 01:05:25,920 --> 01:05:30,800 including magazines, newspapers, and websites. This has led to a decline in the number of people 559 01:05:30,800 --> 01:05:37,120 who read magazines on a regular basis. The decline of print media has also contributed to the reduced 560 01:05:37,120 --> 01:05:42,640 role of magazines. Newspapers and magazines are facing increasing competition from online sources, 561 01:05:42,640 --> 01:05:46,480 and many publications have been forced to reduce their print runs or even shut down altogether. 562 01:05:47,280 --> 01:05:51,280 The changing way people consume news and entertainment has also had an impact on the 563 01:05:51,280 --> 01:05:55,840 role of magazines. People are increasingly getting their news and entertainment from social media, 564 01:05:55,840 --> 01:06:00,160 streaming services, and other online sources. This has made it more difficult for magazines 565 01:06:00,160 --> 01:06:04,720 to compete for attention. Despite these challenges, magazines continue to play an 566 01:06:04,720 --> 01:06:09,440 important role in daily life. They provide in-depth coverage of topics that are not always 567 01:06:09,440 --> 01:06:14,880 covered by other media outlets. They also offer a unique perspective on the world that can be both 568 01:06:14,880 --> 01:06:21,760 entertaining and informative. And then, of course, you got to do a vanity search, right? So I asked 569 01:06:21,760 --> 01:06:27,120 Bard, what do you know about the C-Realm podcast? And it's funny because it gave me three paragraphs. 570 01:06:28,080 --> 01:06:33,120 First paragraph. The C-Realm podcast is a weekly interview-based program featuring discussions on 571 01:06:33,120 --> 01:06:38,000 topics ranging from a possible technological singularity to entheogenic exploration, the 572 01:06:38,000 --> 01:06:42,720 relocalization of community and agriculture, and the competing narratives by which we define 573 01:06:42,720 --> 01:06:48,880 ourselves and navigate our world. It is hosted by KMO, who has been podcasting since 2006. 574 01:06:48,880 --> 01:06:54,400 I laugh because I'm pretty sure I wrote that. I think Bard just went out into the internet, 575 01:06:54,400 --> 01:06:59,120 and the first thing it found is something that I wrote. Second paragraph is much shorter. 576 01:06:59,120 --> 01:07:04,480 The podcast has been praised for its in-depth interviews and its wide range of topics. It has 577 01:07:04,480 --> 01:07:10,000 also been criticized for its length and its sometimes esoteric content. That's odd. I 578 01:07:10,000 --> 01:07:14,000 didn't write that. I don't know where that comes from. I guess it comes from awarenessproject.org 579 01:07:14,000 --> 01:07:20,880 slash podcasts, which is one of only two sources listed here. The other one being podcasts.apple.com 580 01:07:20,880 --> 01:07:27,760 slash us slash podcast slash C-Realm. So criticized for its length. That's interesting. The podcast 581 01:07:27,760 --> 01:07:33,040 has always been about an hour, sometimes a little more, sometimes a little less, you know, maybe as 582 01:07:33,040 --> 01:07:39,200 long as 90 minutes. But I guess those criticisms came before Joe Rogan, where the three and a half, 583 01:07:39,200 --> 01:07:45,520 four hour podcast became quite mainstream. And then the third and final paragraph. 584 01:07:45,520 --> 01:07:50,160 The C-Realm podcast is a valuable resource for anyone interested in exploring the intersection 585 01:07:50,160 --> 01:07:54,880 of technology, culture, and the human condition. It is a podcast that will make you think, and it 586 01:07:54,880 --> 01:08:00,960 is a podcast that will challenge you. Now, that's obviously very complimentary, and I didn't write 587 01:08:00,960 --> 01:08:06,240 it. I don't recognize it. I'm guessing that came from a listener. So whoever wrote that, thank you. 588 01:08:06,240 --> 01:08:11,520 And thank you to Bard for bringing it to my attention. All right, I'm going to leave it there. 589 01:08:11,520 --> 01:08:17,200 As always, if you have feedback, I guess the best way to get it to me is to either go to 590 01:08:18,160 --> 01:08:23,360 patreon.com slash KMO and find the entry for this episode. It will always be free. It will not be 591 01:08:23,360 --> 01:08:28,000 paywalled. You don't have to support me on Patreon to access it, but you can leave a message there. 592 01:08:28,000 --> 01:08:33,040 All of these podcasts also get put up on YouTube, and in fact, more people access them via YouTube 593 01:08:33,040 --> 01:08:41,200 than they do via all the podcast platforms combined. So finding this episode on YouTube 594 01:08:41,200 --> 01:08:46,560 and commenting there might be the way to go. I used to give out my email and encourage people 595 01:08:46,560 --> 01:08:52,560 to write to me there. My email inbox is so full of junk now, it's really easy for me to miss important 596 01:08:52,560 --> 01:08:58,560 emails. So yeah, that's not the way to go anymore. Probably YouTube. YouTube's going to be your best 597 01:08:58,560 --> 01:09:04,800 bet. All right, as I mentioned, the conversation with Ken Goffman, aka Are You Serious, will 598 01:09:04,800 --> 01:09:10,720 continue on the next episode of the Sea Realm Vault podcast, and we start to get into culture 599 01:09:10,720 --> 01:09:15,600 war clashes there. Are You Serious lives in California. He's been a part of the hippie 600 01:09:15,600 --> 01:09:21,280 scene since the 60s. He's definitely not a Republican by any stretch, and even people 601 01:09:21,280 --> 01:09:27,760 who can kind of hang with old school Republicans, they're just allergic to Trump. And so I've noticed 602 01:09:27,760 --> 01:09:34,000 that when I'm talking to certain people, they'll throw out really hyperbolic criticisms of 603 01:09:34,000 --> 01:09:42,720 Donald Trump as a sort of test to see if you are simpatico with them on a cultural or ideological 604 01:09:42,720 --> 01:09:49,920 level. And I'm not. I didn't vote for the guy. I don't like to listen to him. I find his personality 605 01:09:50,720 --> 01:09:56,720 odious, but I don't think he's the devil. I don't think he's Hitler. I don't think he's any sort of 606 01:09:56,720 --> 01:10:01,200 authoritarian. And in fact, in terms of his policies, I like the fact that he didn't start 607 01:10:01,200 --> 01:10:09,840 a lot of new wars, or any. I think we dodged a bullet in 2016. Anyway, if that sets you off, 608 01:10:10,720 --> 01:10:16,000 you know how to contact me. All right, I'm out. Thanks for listening. Talk to you again in one 609 01:10:16,000 --> 01:10:27,280 week's time. Stay well.