Hey everybody, KMO here, and what I have... here
for you is a special episode of the KMO show.
It is actually a six -year -old episode of the
Sea Realm podcast. It's a conversation with Brent
Batnarek. I'm uploading it here as a special
bonus episode. And really the point is to use
the... automatic transcription functions of this
website, rss .com, to create a transcript of
the conversation, which I can then either clean
up for publication or more immediately just share
with ChatGPT or Claude or whatever large language
model I'm discussing things with at the moment.
But I thought it might be interesting to you
as well, so I'm going to leave this up even after
the transcription is done. And what I would just
draw your attention to is that this is 2020.
From around, I would say, 2007 through 2000,
well, 15, 16, somewhere in there, I was a pretty
devoted adherent and articulator of the peak
oil fast collapse narrative. But I started to
get... uncomfortable with it. And I endured internal
friction with it as I continued to represent
it publicly for a while. And then in 2019, in
a Sea Realm Vault conversation with Bob Brown,
which I've also put up on this feed, I basically
just came out and said it. I'm over it. I see
peak oil collapse fixation as much more of a
psychological phenomenon than really a thermodynamic
phenomenon. And in fact, thermodynamic fatalism
is a particular mental habit of the folks who
were, and in some cases still are, fixated on
this notion of a rapid cascading failure of critical
infrastructure due to a shortfall of hydrocarbon
energy. Anyway, this is all in the service of
a book that I'm not exactly writing just yet,
more just sort of brainstorming, but it is a
follow -up to my 2010 book, Conversations on
Collapse, and this book, the working title is
Getting Over Collapse. So if you are monitoring
this RSS feed, you are likely to get occasional,
at least, updates on the progress of that book
and have some notion as to how my thoughts came
together. Anyway, here is my 2020 conversation
with Michael Bednorik. If you speak the truth,
have a foot in the stirrup. Hello, and welcome
to another installment of the Sea Realm Podcast.
I am your host, KMO, and this is episode number
555. It's complicated. With guest Brent Bednarik.
Prepared for release onto the World Wide Web
on Thursday, April 9th, 2020. Or 2020. Anyway,
this conversation that you're about to hear is
not a whole conversation. It's the first half
of a conversation. Maybe a little more. With
Brent Bednarik. Bednarik, who has been a guest
on the Kunstler cast and who contacted me via
email after my last podcast, which featured James
Howard Kunstler. Like me, he's somebody who used
to really subscribe to the peak oil worldview
and now hasn't divorced it, but is not so convinced.
Although he's still more in that camp than I
am. I won't say a whole lot here at the beginning
of the podcast. I have received a lot of great
feedback since the last podcast. I can't share
it all with you in this episode, but Sea Realm
Vault subscribers will get quite a dose of it
in the next episode. All right, here is my conversation
with Brent Bednarik. You're listening to the
Sea Realm Podcast. Sea stands for consciousness.
All righty. Hey, I'm here with Brent Bednarik,
and this is the second time we've spoken, although
the first time was like half an hour ago, and
it was maybe three minutes. We have James Howard
Kunstler in common. Yeah, I was on his podcast
last year. I've been following both him and you
for a while, and I consider Jim a friend as well.
So, yeah, some common lineage, I think. Very
good. So you're familiar with the C -Realm podcast
beyond just the crossover with James Howard Gunsler.
Yes. You know, I really don't know how long I've
been listening to you. Probably about six or
seven years and kind of. going into what we're
going to talk about i listened to you and jim
and chris martinson and just a plethora of all
the same names that probably everyone's listened
to uh religiously just whatever i was pissed
that y 'all wouldn't come out with more content
right because i'm waiting for it and and then
about i don't know maybe three years ago four
years ago uh i just i stopped cold turkey and
i just for a couple years i didn't do listen
to anyone go search y 'all out And then I recently
started listening to you again, and I heard how
you've changed your stance. And I was like, okay,
I've had my own journey with a lot of similar
check marks, if that makes any sense. Who was
it that said, when the facts change, I change
my mind? What do you do, sir? Oh, no, I don't
know who did say that. Somebody can look it up.
Not me, not right now. um yeah yeah i mean do
you want to just jump into you want to just jump
into the topic of why don't you uh paraphrase
the the email that you sent to just get this
this correspondence started sure yeah okay so
i listened to you and jim talk and you and it
was my interpretation was that you have just
completely exited the doomers doomer side of
things you just don't think it's possible um
I'm going to say upset or whatever the word you
want to use is that the last 10 years of your
life might have been negatively influenced by
this mentality. And Jim is still on the mind
of the long emergency still going on, especially
with everything that's going on now. This is
the collapse. And it was just, y 'all are going
to bet to see who won. Is that about right? Check
in in one year, exactly. He said that the Dow
Jones would be down around 5 ,000. I said it
would be above 20. So we'll see. We'll see. Now,
I don't think that the collapse of industrial
civilization is impossible. I agree with John
Michael Greer that it is a process that will
play out over centuries, and a lot can happen
between now and the new medieval dark age. I
don't think we're going back to… you know i don't
think we're going medieval as as jim likes to
say just you know we know too much i mean so
much of uh what we think of as you know the medieval
european social structure was a product of the
very limited knowledge that you know folks had
on a wide swath of topics so i don't think we're
going back there now what we're going to is going
to be complicated weird messy scary, and more
difficult to visualize than simply a return to,
say, the 1400s. I think that's a major advantage
that worldview has, is it's very easy to see
it in your mind's eye. Yeah. See, I'm on the
same line as you now. It's going to be emergent.
What that is, I don't know. I just kind of look
at it as math now. What are the probability that
we go back to the 14th century? I mean, there's
a number. What that is is just what we decide.
But it's higher than zero. Yeah. But maybe not
much higher. Yeah, who knows? Maybe not, right?
But we can all come up with all these different
ideas of what it's going to be. But let's just
talk about kind of two things. One, this idea
of emergency. Well, let's not talk about what
it's going to be. Let's just talk about what
it has, the process in history. In history, it
kind of shows that it's chaotic, painful, right?
Last a long time, can last a long time, right?
And yeah, do I think that our technology is just
going to poof and go away and never be used again?
No, I don't. But I think more of in time. I think
more of in time of like, okay, today we're going
to go through a trough. Now, how deep is that
trough and how long does that trough last? And
that's where, so now let's go to the second thing,
which is just our mindsets. And I think this
is for the last 10 years, this mindset of, oh,
this is going to happen for sure. It's right
around the corner and whatever, whatever theme
you particularly enjoy thinking about it. whether
it was zombies. My particular brand was one,
a financial collapse or two, an EMP. I thought
it was not only from the Russians or whoever,
but just from a solar flare. I was like, these
I think are actually probable. So that's where
my Doomer mentality came from. And then that
Doomer mentality, man, what did it do to my life,
both good and bad? And that's what I emailed
you the other day where it was. I, my sense of
you is, well, in my, it's really just my sense,
you know, cause I'm, I'm just projecting what
I feel onto you. And that is you lost 10 years,
you know, the most blunt way to put it, because
I feel like I, there was, there's definitely
a time that I felt like I lost 10 years of my
life with the mentality of being a doomer and
not, Hey, this system's great. puppy dogs and
ice cream keep that corporate job get that picket
white fence the 401k and i'm going to have the
same life that my mother and my father and my
grandparents had and i never i never thought
that that was a possibility so i made a lot of
decisions in my life that let that where i think
you and i are on the same page of a possible
wasting of 10 years is that right Well, you know,
those 10 years happened and experiences accumulated
and I made contacts and, you know, it wasn't
entirely wasted. But for me, the tragedy of my
doomer phase was that it came at exactly the
wrong time. It made me seem absolutely insane
to my now ex -wife. And I basically didn't get
to live with my kids as they were growing up.
That's what it cost me. That's a big cost. Yeah.
Yeah. Career and financial stuff, I've always
been kind of a career suicide guy anyway. You
know, give me a good corporate job and I will
burn out very quickly and quit in a huff. Very
quickly means two years. That's about my usual
span. Hey, if we're not the same, we rhyme. So,
yeah. And I wonder if that Doomer mentality magnified
that. Right? a deep -seated anti -authoritarian
streak probably genetic and that puts me in a
bad position you know with regard to employers
hey all we've all we've revealed about you so
far is that you know who i am and you know who
jim kunzler is and you know who chris martinson
and probably john michael greer and dimitri orlov
you know all those names but uh love it Who are
you and what are you about and how did you get
to what you're doing and what are the salient
details? Sure. I guess trying to figure out the
starting point is always tough for me. But I
think my best thing is when I got into the military.
I got in at 26 and I became an officer in the
Army. And why I say that is because when you
go through officer candidate school, you're eligible
for a $25 ,000 loan from USAA for like 0 % or
something incredibly small. So I had a college
degree. I thought I was a little bit smarter
than the average Joe. So I took that 25 and I
put it, I went to a, who was it? Edward Jones.
And I put $25 ,000 in the market. I took whatever
advice she gave me. 2007. Right? So I was like,
man, I'll get a little bit of interest. Everyone
seems to be killing this. Everyone's telling
me to do it. So even if I make 2%, I'll be up
2 % because I'm paying zero interest on this
loan. Like, that's all I knew. And I got deployed
in all of 08. I went to Afghanistan. And I just
watched that 25 ,000 do this. And then all the
way down. And I got back to my next duty station
in the beginning of 09 and it was in Hawaii.
And it was just house after house after house
foreclosed on out there. And it was a big problem
with the military because people would buy homes,
they'd get transferred three years and they were
making money. But these mortgages were huge,
400 ,000, 500 ,000. And all of a sudden the price
started dropping that these military guys couldn't
sell their home. and they're sitting there telling
the army like i'm going to go bankrupt i can't
leave so what i'm doing is i'm telling you how
my doomer mentality started coming up so that's
where it all started i learned everything about
gold i started investing in precious metals and
silvers and guns and bullets and all that kind
of stuff like i was starting to prep and i was
a military guy so i was prepping in the way that
i knew how to prep um spent seven years two deployments
in the military My last tour was 12 -13. I was
on an SFAT. You were on what? SFAT, Security
Forces Advise and Assist Team. And what it was,
was it was us training the Afghans to be a professional
military. So we were advisors. So me and three
other guys went out with 30 Afghans every day,
advising, being our liaison between... the ana
the um that's the afghan national army the afghan
border patrol like all different levels of their
military and police and we were a coordination
center so i did that and that's just a rough
job our battalion and brigade commanders they
wanted to run missions which hey if i was them
so would i you know the president had this idea
that we were just going to be advised teams and
that's No direct action. But if you're a lieutenant
colonel and you want to be a colonel, if you're
a colonel, if you want to be a general, you got
to kind of make a name for yourself. You got
to do something. And after that deployment, I
got home and I was like, you guys are cool, but
you ain't that cool. And I left. I also had this
fear of financial collapse because I'm watching
what's going on with the banks. I'm watching
what's going on with QE1, QE2, TARP. Clash of
Clunkers, all these different things. I had the
Ron Paul mentality at that point, libertarian.
Finances to me is kind of simple. I know there's
a government accounting and everything, but that
was shenanigans. It was shenanigans. And we should
just call it what it is, shenanigans. And I was
just like, oh, they're not going to be able to
do it. We're in the eye of the storm. And I thought
that Eye of the Storm was going to be two, three
years. And now this comes back full circle. It
turned out to be 10. But after I got out of the
military, I went to work for Ernst Young in New
York City. I was working for all the major banks
doing financial services, you know, JP Morgans,
Morgan Stanley, all that kind of stuff. Did that
for two years. Just corporate welfare. And I'm
kind of like you. I kind of just thought and
I was like, this isn't me. I love the city, but
it just burnt me out. So I came back home to
Dallas, Texas, went and got my MBA. I've been
doing business consulting, doing my own thing,
and completely out of it. I got into yoga. I
was a huge yogi. Got out of the Doomer, sold
all my ARs, went vegan for a while to try to
heal my stomach. So then I got into all types
of organisms and soil. I became a huge fan of
just soil and learning about it. That's what
I'm kind of doing now. But I was doing business
consulting at Fort Worth, loving my life, making
a decent amount, doing yoga, had a girlfriend,
and completely out of the mindset until about
two years ago when I started watching society
collapse with what I consider this kind of disease
of the mind with the social justice warrior.
It pulled me back into the politic realm and
then through that I started getting I started
seeing what was going on And now the last three
months man Right back into the doomer lifestyle.
So You know, that's kind of me right now I've
got some plans where I'm at in a small town in
Oklahoma cuz I left Fort Worth I got out of there
three weeks ago. I'm not gonna be in a major
city I'm just not it doesn't seem like a good
idea to be right now, right? So So I'm in Durant
Talking to my MBA guys in Fort Worth and my army
buddies all over the country who are working
at major corporations and Getting ready for that
emergency that's coming and You know, I just
think this one's gonna hurt All right, well you
um, you are starting to toy around with vlogging
as well. So I was watching a nearly an hour long
sort of unscripted ramble. And something that
you said in it, you know, repeatedly was that
right now everything is in play. Stuff that wasn't
possible a year ago and won't be possible a year
from now is possible right now. And, you know,
that's me elaborating on what you said. What
you said is everything is in play. So let me
let you elaborate on that. Yeah. That kind of
stream of consciousness video I put out there
for family and friends. Yeah, I just got to the
conclusion. I fast forwarded, you know, three
weeks ago when the whole supply chain things
really started coming out and the disease, you
started to see what was coming. I extrapolated
a couple years. And what I see is what I consider
the world is in play on an economic front, on
a societal front, on a geopolitical front. And
what I say is not only has the United States
never been more vulnerable, the world has never
been more vulnerable. And why I say that is it
seems to me in history when debt gets too big
or really not even debt, let's just say when
resources start getting restrained from big countries,
a leader has one of two options. One, they, you
know, they... take responsibility and they try
to dig themselves out or two they blame they
refocus people's anger onto an enemy and they
go and have a war for resources and into the
victor goes the spoil debts get erased for the
winner just kind of what happened for us in world
war ii you know we weren't in a good spot after
the depression it lasted 15 years and a lot of
people say that the economics economy of the
united states got better because of world war
ii that's partially right the economy of the
united states got better because of world war
ii and we won it and we got to remember that
so what what's in play right now every major
country with a major military has options and
they've all got their own versions of henry kissinger's
they probably have 10 of them and they're looking
at the chessboard so my girlfriend's from italy
And her family's in a small town. They're doing
fine, right? They got their own garden. They
got a place on the countryside. It's great. Her
brother's in Rome. Her brother's locked down.
He can't get to the country. He'd love to be
able to. He waited too long. All right. The European
Union is in a lot of trouble, I think. I mean,
I think we can look at the Thiles and go, they're
going to have some struggles. They've closed
down the borders between them, each other. Italy
is remembering this, right? France did the same
thing. Everyone eats for themselves. Well, they
don't have a unified military. Well, if I'm Russia,
maybe I've got a neighbor right there that has
potentially a lot of wealth that I can scoop
in and get them pretty quickly with not much
effort. I mean, the Germans don't have a standing
army. The UK might a little bit. What does the
EU have? In America, we might be able to go help,
but we got our own problems right now. The world
has never been more vulnerable. Maybe we do a
preemptive strike and make Europe a colony of
us just to protect them. That sounds incredibly
crazy. I told that to my Italian girlfriend.
She's like, I'd rather be a colony of the United
States than of Russia. And that's her immediate
response. And I can hear the warm war drums from
our side. Go read the comments of people. You're
starting to hear China over and over again. Whose
fault is this? China's. Right. You're starting
to hear the newscasters blaming China a little
bit more each day. And all that is to me is in
the background, those war drums. And I mean,
I'm kind of a follower of Jordan Peterson. Right.
I kind of like that idea of responsibility. But
what helped me understand this world was when
he talked about IQs and there's actually a uniform
distribution. what that means mathematically
and you understand what people's cognitive levels
are and you understand that some of these high
concepts have to get filtered over and over and
it's got to be dumbed down but not really and
i'm not saying that as an insulting way but it
just has to get consumable and when the mass
of people just the crowd the zombies the herd
whatever when the mass of people go well this
is china's fault that i'm hungry that i don't
get my stuff from walmart that life has become
more difficult, right? Well, we got 12 carriers.
We got lots of dudes in uniforms with lots of
guns. And I'm not even saying we're wrong to
do it, but that's what I can see happening. And
anything is possible. You and Jim were talking
about the Dow being 5 ,000 or 20 ,000 in a year.
I say, look at a map today and then look at a
map in a year. I would put a lot of money that
something's going to change. I was watching the
news last night in Hungary. He just got that
he has unlimited power for as long as he wants,
dictatorship for the coronavirus. I mean, hey,
maybe he's legit about that, but power corrupts,
right? And if they get pissed, there's some country,
I would guess, around him that he can go get
pretty quick. And now, you hear what I'm saying?
So much can change. You're talking about the
Dow. I'm talking about the map. Yeah, my suspicion
is the map won't change that much in the next
year. I think over the next 10, 15, 20 years,
I think there's a more than negligible chance
that China is going to break up into a few different
regional powers because they don't have the geographical
advantages that the United States has. They're
basically a bunch of little island nations inside
of this. really mountainous area they don't have
good you know overland transportation between
the different areas they're really prosperous
cities are down on their southern coast pretty
far from you know the capital the political and
military capital they are dependent on energy
resources from their far west that is next to
all the stands you know uzbekistan kazakhstan
all you know all the afghanistan And they have
their own internal Muslim population that they
are really brutally repressing. So they're not
making a lot of friends over in the stands, although
they do have some sort of pragmatic, you know,
of the moment business partners. But I think
China's facing some problems that the United
States doesn't have. The United States isn't
even close to facing the problems that China
has. I don't see any reason or advantage for
the U .S. military to invade China or to attack
them, bomb them, send nuclear missiles. I think
the best thing to do is going to pull back to
our Pacific allies, which are all in this chain
of islands around outside of China, and just
sit back and watch China sort of disintegrate
and flail. And then if they get desperate and
they try for a military solution, as you say,
the U .S. Navy is bigger than the rest of the
world put together. there is no challenging the
u .s navy even with their supersonic you know
carrier busting cruise missiles yeah and hey
i'm with you you know you said i said one year
you said ten like i don't really mean one year
this stuff like uh greer talks about it happens
over a longer period of time right it's not a
it's not a movie so i'm with you on that and
you know what you were telling me about china
and everything you just said i all i hear is
it's complex And what do we know about complexity
theory? Well, there's just that many more things
where it can break. And then what's going to
be, you know, what's going to be the one? Right
now with the global supply chain as it is, I
mean, this is how I see it. Okay. When I talk
to business owners, I go, you know, what is a,
you got a business and it's a circle and half
of it is whatever your service or product is.
The other half is running your business. right
so what is that other side of the coin well it's
keeping 16 plates all spinning at the same time
and it's an artful right all right so you get
that going you got all those plates spinning
now extrapolate that to all the companies all
over and how they're all intertwined with the
oil shock with what that did i think it was just
it poked that global supply chain and i just
it's easy for me to say we don't have the resulting
resiliency built in we just don't have the resiliency
put in and we've got it to the razor edge of
profitability just in time all these different
things even if our economy was good there's no
escaping this that virus shutting everything
down it just knocked it all over so i mean it's
just complex we just have complex uh structure
after complex structure after complex structure
structure and it's just it's a bullwhip and it's
just going all the way through it and it's just
going to get bigger and bigger and bigger and
i think and i mean i and i think that sounds
reasonable and i think we can i think there's
evidence every night on the news that this is
what's going to be happening right also and now
that i think i think i just went on a rant for
nothing so no that's all right well i was going
to say um One unfortunate, I mean, even when
I was deep into the peak oil scene, there's good
information to be gleaned there. You know, there's
some rock solid thinking that a lot of people,
you know, the world would be better off if more
people understood the concept of energy returned
on energy invested. Yep. But unfortunately, a
guy named Joseph Tainter made a name in the peak
oil scene. with his book, The Collapse of Complex
Societies or Complex Civilizations. And he's
the one who really introduced the concept into
the peak oil conversation that the more complexity
you layer into a system, the more breaking points
it has and the more expensive it is to maintain
those higher levels of organization. There's
some truth to that, but really the thing you
should understand when it comes to complex systems
is the more complex and interconnected a system
is, the more you get. seemingly nonlinear behavior
and counterintuitive outputs. Complex systems
don't crash catastrophically because they don't
tend to be brittle. It is simple brittle systems
that are either working or they're failed. The
more complex a system is, the more potential
states it has. And when it does fail, it tends
to fail in weird ways, but it doesn't crash all
the way to the bottom level of potential complexity.
It collapses down to what is sustainable, which
might not be that much of a drop, which is why
John Michael Weir is talking about the cascading
sort of catabolic collapse that takes place over
these many stair -step episodes over a long period
of time. That makes sense to me because every
time there is a new shock, which knocks out some
of the supports in this structure it is a very
complex structure it's going to collapse into
a shape that almost nobody anticipated and it's
not going to be a total collapse and there is
going to be the opportunity to start to rebuild
and in some ways you know things really will
be hitting new highs they'll be working better
than ever in some ways one thing i really appreciate
i mean i'm always looking for the silver lining
in our current situation uh the obvious one is
we are going to realize You know, that the more
efficient you make a just -in -time delivery
system, the more, you know, the more sacrifice
you make in terms of the resiliency of the system.
So hopefully we're going to try to, you know,
source more, build more, get our resources locally
here on the continent. And what a wealth of natural
resources we have in the North American continent.
We are better positioned to do that than just
about anybody. It's just, you know, we're going
to have to sacrifice some profits from... people
who can afford to make that sacrifice you know
point blank the people who are who just got trillions
of dollars handed to them as the opening gesture
in hey can we do something to help workers i
mean they didn't need the money but those are
the folks that are going to have to take a haircut
in order to bring manufacturing bring raw resource
production back to this country and that has
to be done so that's that's wish number one and
that's sort of the obvious one But I'm also hoping
that the longer this lockdown goes on, the more
obvious it becomes that it isn't really required
that everybody be doing everything they can to
generate economic activity so that they can make
money, so that they can buy food and pay the
rent. It's pretty clear that it takes a tiny
fraction. of the total potential working population
to supply all of us with our basic needs. I mean,
the more automation progresses, the more we're
going to have to come to grips with that reality.
But this virus is showing it to us right now.
We don't need automated burger flipping robots
to demonstrate to us that it doesn't take that
many people to feed all of us. And the fact that
all of us need money to pay rent and to maintain
our credit ratings and to buy various things.
It's just not necessary that we're all be scurrying
around like hamsters on a wheel all the time
trying to make as much money as possible. We
would be better off, a lot of us, putzing around
in our garden, learning about soil, studying
things, playing chess. I mean, there's a lot
better uses for a human mind than being on a
phone all day harassing people trying to collect
debts. There's a lot of economic activity that
we would be better off if it just went away.
Yeah, I hear you. I don't disagree in theory
on a lot of that stuff. But also, I've kind of,
I don't know, I think it's my age. I had some
health problems a few years ago. I don't know.
I don't know if there's a right way or a wrong
way with all this stuff. What you're talking
about, I agree with you. A lot of it's annoying.
I don't know. I don't agree that it takes so
few of us to do this thing. And I think only
time will tell on that. I think that we're stressing
it out. But on the automation and then on the
people who didn't need the money were the first
ones who got a lot of it. Listen, I listened
to you and Jim, and I'm in complete agreement
with you. Complete agreement with you. If this
reset happens, it's not going to make everyone
swear. the rich are going to get rich and the
poor are going to suffer it's like to accelerate
the process that was already underway has been
for a long time absolutely okay but i take a
step back from that and i take a step back from
that and just think i'm a science teacher and
remember those stories they said where when you
have a ton of rabbits the hawks eat all the rabbits
and reproduce until they get to be such a big
number there's no more rabbits anymore then they
have to die out and the rabbits come back and
it's always this kind of balance i just think
the human colony tip past its keys i just think
we we worldwide we got too big it was a hell
of a thing we did i mean going down the highway
in a honda going 80 miles an hour looking at
a bmw from germany and some other car from london
and me and this japanese car just racing down
that was amazing what we did it's amazing i'm
like i'm impressed even with all the pollution
and even with all the just the silliness that
we as humans are you're right complex systems
are what we're good at um i just think we we
just went a little too far and then this thing
happened right and even if the economy was good
because the people are blaming the bad economy
even if like there was no tensions this thing
where we're at in time of history with what we've
done And the fact that we just didn't have the
foresight, because no one's perfect, but we didn't
have this foresight to put the resiliency in
there, I don't see this as a conspiracy theory
doomer thing anymore. I go, okay, this is what
we did. This is a pretty scientific, I think,
model of what happened and what's going to happen.
And yeah, we're going to have all different types
of personalities doing all different types of
things. And that's just humanity, and it's a
show. and we get to watch it and hope for the
best right and you want to talk about some positive
things that's going on here okay again i'm kind
of a jordan peterson fan i am so thankful that
he came out there and started preaching this
idea of responsibility to all these young men
you know they were soaking it up all these 20
something year old men great maybe they're the
ones that shoulder the burden of what we're about
to go through Maybe they're the ones that whatever
is emergent, they are the next wave. Because
I look at a lot of the generations out there,
and I don't see resiliency in their mindset and
emotional state. I don't see resiliency in strength.
I see a lot of victimhood stuff out there. I
see a lot of laziness. I mean, we're the fattest
country in the world. We're just the most obese.
We're the richest. We had a little comeuppance
that we're going to have to come down a little
bit. And I'm okay with that because there's opportunity.
Hey, you can do just as well in times of chaos
as you can in good times. You're smart. You're
capable. They did kind of hit the reset button.
People like you and I, a lot of different people,
hey, we know some things. Maybe it's time we
start capitalizing on it because plumbers are
going to start doing very well. We're not going
to need so many people who are good at Excel
or programming. I just don't think we are. We're
going to need some people who know how to do
things. Hey, take it for what it is. I can tell
you what I'm planning on or what's going on in
my mind and some of the things that we're thinking
about doing. Worm farms. We're two hours north
of Dallas. All of a sudden, people want to start
gardening because they need food because the
supply chain is still interrupted and they're
not getting the amount they want to. Also, they're
like, hey, we don't want to depend on some government
to bring it to us. Let's have a little bit source
of our own food. Fertilizer. Local fertilizer.
Get local. And what does that mean? It means
there is going to be a lot of customers trying
to figure out what they need to survive. A lot
of opportunity out there. And I'm encouraged
by that. Now, how we as a society do it with
the guns and the obesity and the Prozacs and
all that kind of stuff and the left versus right,
there's a lot of people who are pissed off right
now. Well, we're going to have to see how that
all plays out. And it's just... i mean i don't
think it's i don't think it's unreasonable to
say that it's going to be a bumpy ride now how
how bumpy it'll be every city will be different
and who comes out of it well i don't know i think
every mayor every mayor of any town should be
going and saying okay where i'm at there's a
local butcher great he's got not only a butcher
he's a slaughter so that's a really nice resource
to have with a lot of cows around well There
were about four people that worked there. Okay,
so not insulting them, but who are they? Well,
that wasn't a very highfalutin job that someone
with a degree would have, and you don't see a
lot of kids doing that. Well, I don't want any
of those four people to work their ass off, run
themselves down, get sick, and die. They have
a skill set that we need. We should be identifying
every skill set we need in a mayor of 15 ,000
and start putting interns. Go to the senior class.
which one of these people are capable and then
subsidizing all these essential businesses. And
I'm not talking about liquor stores, right? I'm
talking about, we should double up on people
who do the water treatment. We should double
up, right? That's where we need to be sitting
there going, what's a good insurance policy?
Well, gardens are a good insurance policy. Doubling
up on butchers are a good insurance policy. Getting
local, we got to get local. And if we do that,
we'll get out of this, If not, we're coming in
for a rocky road. It's going to be a rough landing.
You know, I live in rural Vermont and there are
various farms around and all of the bigger farms
import seasonal labor from Jamaica because the
Jamaicans, they know how to work. They know how
to do agricultural work and they come over and
they work their asses off for six or eight months
and then they head back to Jamaica. You know,
in Vermont, we have a brain drain problem the
ambitious young people the smart young people
as soon as they graduate from high school they're
gone you know or if they go to college and state
as soon as they're out of college they're gone
and you know who's left well there's a you know
a solid cohort of nail bangers around here you
know guys with solid construction skills you
know manual labor a good work ethic But we also
have a lot of people, like we have a lot of heroin
addicts around, and we have multi -generational
people living on public assistance, you know,
people who they've never known a situation where
mom and dad lived together and dad had a job
and paid the rent. I mean, that's as alien to
their experience as going to Afghanistan is to
mine. Right. I've never served in the military.
So, yeah. I don't like to harp on this because
it makes me sound like an arch conservative,
but there are a lot of people who are absolutely
unsuited just based on their life's experience
to do anything for themselves. Anything at all.
And I agree with you. I mean, I'm not really
in the Jordan Peterson demographic. I'm a little
old for that. But I did buy his book for my son.
I really... appreciate that Jordan Peterson is
on college campuses. He's in the same arena as
the social justice warriors who are preaching
that anything that makes you the slightest bit
uncomfortable is the equivalent of a war crime
committed against you by the evil patriarchy.
And life isn't like that. Life is uncomfortable.
And if you are actually going to do something
that you haven't done before, you're going to
experience a period of you know just cognitive
discomfort that is a sign that you're working
that you're doing something if you're comfortable
all the time you are you know you're degenerating
yoga's no you don't do it no you don't do any
shadow work i mean that and yoga is not comfortable
you're absolutely right that's the whole point
of it when you get in a uncomfortable situation
you learn how to breathe yeah right and that's
what it is life is uncomfortable Okay, so it
was impressive what we did. It was impressive
what we did. We allowed, we got to a place that
was so good that they had to come up with a term
like microaggression. Because we got rid of all
the big ones. And then that was the next thing.
I mean, it was so ridiculous. I watched feminists.
The people who were fighting the feminists were
the trans right activists. They had turned on
their... themselves at that point but where i'm
at now and why it's why uh i think that nonsense
is already over is hey man five million people
have already lost their job another two million
are right around the corner and then two million
after that like everyone's about to be a victim
so no one's going to care about all this silly
nonsense it's going to go away and this cancel
culture and all this other thing like these are
positive of what's just happened because people
are They're not just going to be on their phone,
BuzzFeed, wasting time because they got nothing
to do. It can't happen. So here, you know, you
said it sounds like a starched Republican. I
mean, hell, I'll be that guy. I'll be it. Living
life, you're walking on a tightrope. Survival,
I mean, get a job, get money, food. I mean, you
still have to do it. But what was amazing about
what we did was we had safety net after safety
net after safety net. Just, we had it. Well,
what happened? I don't even dislike Trump. I
don't like him. I don't dislike him. He gave
all the money to the corporations. He did. That's
what happened. So now, if he's going to bail
out everyone, including all these social programs,
the money is not going to be worth anything,
right? So that's not going to happen. He already
chose. So all these people that you've identified
in your town and that are everywhere, who are
completely incapable to handle anything, that
wealth transfer just happened. It already happened.
So that's coming down the pipe. And I don't see
us handling that too well. So I'm looking at
good news of there's opportunity, there's things
you can do. But at the same time, the day the
Russians and the Saudis had that oil market share,
whatever they want to call it, and the oil price
dropped. It sent that shockwave through the financial
market because now they can never value the shale
industry again. They have to price in that risk
factor of they can have those shocks. It was
just too big of our economy. It's just sending
ripples throughout it. This is what happened.
We literally, that was the day the world changed.
So I'm no longer a doomer. I am, this is the
new world and the play out is going to be huge.
And what do you do? Like, what is your plan?
Do you have a plan yet? Well, I was just in the
process of moving to Puerto Rico when this lockdown
put everything on hold. But my plan is to keep,
you know, drawing comics and making podcasts
and shooting videos. I just wanted to do it in
a place with more people, a place with a bit
more social dynamism because I am not cut out
for small town Vermont. It's not, it's not. not
simpatico with my personality four years was
enough no good yoga yep well i mean i can still
do yoga here but uh i can't do it by myself i
have to go to a studio i'm so lazy that way i
need someone tell me what to do yeah i agree
i agree i will not sit down i will not roll out
the yoga mat and do a solid 90 minutes on my
own i forget it well i mean where do you let
me ask you this thing because like to know the
holes in my argument mm -hmm where do you think
I was either unreasonable or I went too far or
anything you think that I'm just I'm kind of
wrong because I'd love to know combining some
stuff that you said just now with some things
that I heard in your your vlog sounds like you're
holding on to some peak oil talking points that
the last decade is just demonstrate demonstrated
never held any water okay Most of the hydrocarbons
in the ground are in shale seams. You know, what
we consider to be conventional oil where just
it's near the surface, it's a pool rather than,
you know, in the pores of rocks, and it's under
such pressure that you can just pierce the ground
and it comes up. That was the icing. I agree
with this. Yeah, that's not the bulk of the hydrocarbons
available to us. And, you know, the super majors,
the big, big multinational oil companies, they
don't do shale. They don't like it. it doesn't
produce enough money for them it's it's too technically
complicated it is there's too much variation
from you know even in one play there's all kinds
of different variations you have to use this
very sophisticated micro seismic technology to
find out exactly where to you know drill that
next well or to where to re -drill you know at
what depth to re -drill an existing well they
don't they don't go in for it so you've got this
whole ecosystem of new fracking companies you
know some going for oil some for gas some doing
both but mostly not both mostly they're they're
pretty specialized and they have a dozen executives
each maybe 25 employees total and they pop up
out of nowhere they operate until you know something
goes wrong the company goes broke they file through
chapter 11 and then the various people who are
doing that go off and start different companies
and they get financed again and You know, you
can say that that's all chicanery, but as long
as we run on oil, the advantages of having it
here, you know, getting it from home rather than
having to have this military apparatus that allows
us to lay claim to oil on the other side of the
planet and to get in bed with evil fuckers like
the Saudis, there's so much advantage to having
this domestic source that who cares what chicanery
we get up to? It's cheaper than a global military.
You know, it's... it's basically just it's a
nationalized endeavor at this point but we we
don't acknowledge that it's nationalized we let
various players you know pop up and make a killing
at it in a short period just to keep it going
but if you compare that to the price of a global
you know military police force it's free it's
It's not going to collapse tomorrow. It's no
more going to collapse tomorrow than it was going
to collapse in 2007 when Jim Kunstler was making
these exact same arguments, you know, that the
financing is irrational. It doesn't matter that
the financing is not irrational. We need that
oil for reasons other than just making money.
So, yeah, so I don't disagree with a single thing
you said, right, at all. And in this new world.
Yeah, it might not matter how much it costs because
we do just nationalize and we use it for ourselves.
I don't think anything you said there was unreasonable.
And I think, yeah, why couldn't that be a possibility?
What I'm just saying is because the banks had
such low interest rates since 08, 09, banks still
had to make money or they didn't have to make,
they wanted to make money. The people wanted
the bonuses. So what they did was. They improperly
priced the risk of these small ones. They kept
on getting financed over and over and over again,
just like you said. Because the banks, that was
the only yield they could get. I mean, not the
only one, but those were yields that were making
the banks money. And these companies just kept
on rolling over their debt, right? That's what
I think Jim Kunst was talking about is it's an
all financial three -card money thing. Because
the interest rates were so low. on the federal
level because the Federal Reserve didn't want
anything to upset the apple cart. Banks had to
go find yield. They improperly priced it with
this shale, especially the small to medium -sized
guys, not the majors. But that made so much money
for the banks that when that financing part,
that's what I'm talking about, that financing
part has to go away now for the banks as a money
generator. And that alone, not having to do anything
with the oil in the ground. You know, if the
banks aren't able to provide the capital necessary
to continue the production, then the federal
government might have to step up and do it in
a more, you know, honest and direct way. Yeah.
That is nowhere near the top of my list of concerns.
You know, financing for hydrocarbon extraction.
That's going to happen. That worrying about that
is like worrying about overpopulation on Mars.
You know, it's maybe someday in the distant future.
That's a problem. But there's much more acute.
Things we have to deal with in the here and now.
Well, okay, so that is where I think it's just
people's experiences and their education and
what they know, right? You're probably right.
I mean, what do I know, right? But my experience
is in finance world, right? My experience is
going and understanding what happened, why 08
-09 happened, and why the Federal Reserve did
what they did. Okay, well, it was because of
this idea of... you know the banking system is
like the heart of an economy and cash is like
the blood and they want to keep this thing all
going and look this i'm not a keynesian and i'm
not a you know whoever the other guy what was
the other guy's name is keynesian or i don't
know the sound money a strong australian astrologers
yeah yeah typically uh contrasted with like uh
austrian economists uh what was that one guy
there was heinick or something like that it doesn't
matter he's one so i'm not Yeah, I'm not saying
I'm on one side of the fence or the other. What
I'm saying is how our system runs on debt. That's
why the small shale debt thing is so important.
And it sends shockwaves through the system. So
that's just my experience. And that's me reading
the tea leaves saying, that's a really interesting,
complex, hard to understand problem that's going
off right now. Yeah, man, unless you have a finance
degree or you understand that world, it's like
overpopulation on Mars. And my understanding
of it, I believe, is at a certain level why I
think this is the important thing. And I can
give examples of the bullwhip in the economy
right now. You know, just the simple fact that
the Dow goes up 1 ,000, down 2 ,000, up 1 ,000.
just that simple fact alone is what you that's
all you need to know that this thing is unwinding
um pretty violently and if you know anything
about the system knowing that that that there's
a violence in there and knowing how options work
contracts puts and margin calls and all these
different terms that's where it's yeah finance
is a huge problem It's a huge, huge problem.
That's why the Federal Reserve said, QE to whatever
you need. And that's why the poor people are
getting screwed. Now, I hate to say this. I hate
to bring this up. But, you know, I'm totally
partisan on the class level. I am against the
oligarchs. I am for the working people. But when
you give unlimited money to the ownership class,
they don't go out and spend it on stuff. They
try to lock it up and just keep it as, you know,
wealth. So they put it into the stock market.
So when the stock market, they put it in the
stock market or, you know, if they own a company,
a public company, they buy back their own stock,
you know, to increase the value of their stock,
which increases their personal wealth. It's probably
also going to increase the bonus they get. But
they have all this money that they're not really
spending on stuff. And if money... not circulating
then it's not functioning as the blood of the
economy and if it's not circulating it's not
playing that role then you don't really get inflation
like people worry about hyperinflation that again
is one of these you know overpopulation on Mars
scenarios I'm not worried about hyperinflation
or even regular inflation I think deflation is
probably gonna get us because the money that
gets given to the rich people just basically
disappears it goes away it they want it to grow
And so they move it around to different growth
areas. But those are all sort of distinct from
the actual physical economy of stuff that we
all depend on. And hydrocarbons and fuel for
machinery, that is real stuff. But when we're
talking about 2008, we haven't mentioned mortgage
-backed securities. That was a huge abstract
creation that dwarfed the real economy. in terms
of how much money was at play, how much counter
risk was set up. Leverage. Right. All of our
talk of the 2008 financial chicanery and its
relationship to hydrocarbon production, that
is such a minuscule little sideshow in terms
of that whole play. It was mostly just abstract
bullshit that was falling apart. And if abstract
bullshit falls apart, it's not a death blow.
It's a different abstract bullshit system. I
hear you. And from how we got out of the last
10 years, I look at it as a gift. They did paper
over it. They figured out a way to paper over
it. And smart people figured it out. And that's
why I got out of it. That's why I kept all my
precious metals. But there got to a point where
I just looked at them and hated them. I was resentful
for them. I'm a military guy and I sold all my
ARs. I'm like, I am out of this. I put all that
stuff in storage and I was like, I'm never doing
it again. They're smarter than me. They figured
it out. And I did not think the other eye of
the storm was coming. Okay, but this is what
propelled me to leave Fort Worth and it wasn't
the virus. So if this is true, if these photos
are true and not doctored, NASA had these photos
of like all of China pollution from January 1
to January 20th or something like 19th. And then
there was Chinese New Year, which is that week
long or however many days, and then a month after.
And it showed in 2019 how the pollution was before
New Year, how it decreased during New Year, and
then how it ramped back up, right? Well, if these
photos are real. from 2020 same time period there's
no pollution there's no pollution i mean the
factories were already shut down and now you're
starting to hear that they they started shutting
this down in december they already knew they
were already clamping down on it so so what i
hear from that is the factories that refill not
only all of america's stores because pretty much
pick the number percentages made in china but
all the world like China was the manufacturing
engine for the world. So we weren't the only
ones who got conned into this. They've been down
since, let's just say Jan 1, and they haven't
still come back up yet. Some of them have with
masks and some other things, and they're still
producing whatever. But a big, big percentage
was down, and I don't think it's come back up.
I don't trust the news that it is coming back
up. Now, I could be wrong. And I'm more than
willing to accept that. But from what I hear,
what I think makes sense, I don't think they're
back up. And I think that all countries have
shut down their borders because they realize
this. They're all hunkering down. Like name the
countries who've shut down their borders, that
nothing's going in or out. Germany, Canada, France,
Spain, Italy, Singapore, they've all shut down.
Trade stop. You can look at the ports. It's empty.
Well, we're talking about abstract stuff with
MBSs and all that. I'm talking about goods. I'm
talking about real things. And you got to think
about it too in a way where it's like, okay,
let's say there's a plant here that has, it does
beans, it cans beans. And we grow the beans here
and everything's here. All right. Do we get the
cans from China? Well, probably because we get
raw materials from them. And if we don't get
the cans, we get the raw materials from China.
Because not only we did offshore our manufacturing
and our jobs, but we also offshored our pollution.
So none of that stuff's getting built here or
mined here or anything. It's all over there.
Okay, well, what about the machinery? What about
a machine that washes the beans? There's going
to be a circuit board that goes out and they've
got some repair guy. that comes in, diagnoses
it, and says, okay, let me call and order this
part. And because we're just in time, that probably
came from China, because that's where we get
everything. Or enough where the probability of
something failing keeps on going up and up. So
my contention, and I could be wrong, someone
could prove this, and then I'm going to have
to rethink everything, is a lot of stuff in China
is still shut down. So that means it's on month
three or four. How long does it take to get back
up? Well, being in the corporate world, I mean,
I don't know manufacturing. I'm going to guess
three or four months, maybe longer because up
and down that supply chain, you don't know what's
going to open when and you're going to be waiting.
So now that's a disruption. So not only are their
goods not going to be in Walmart, but there might
not be repair parts and the stuff that keeps
the semis on the road or the chemicals that keep
all the water companies disinfecting our water.
Because probably all that stuff comes from China.
I'd be, I mean, I'd make a bet that it came from
China. Everything does. And if they're not producing
any stuff, maybe they're down 30%. Well, in that
30%, what do we have to have that we are not
going to get? There's going to be one item. It's
probably going to be a lot. And I'm just playing
math. I don't have a social agenda here. I don't
have a political philosophy. I don't have an
economic theory. I just go, stuff's not coming.
You're talking about beans, and here's the thing.
You don't have to put beans in a can. You can
ship beans in a bag, dry. They don't need to
be refrigerated. And then people, instead of
just opening the can and pouring them in the
pot, you soak them overnight. Yep. We're going
to have to get creative. If we have to do that
because of this, that will be a benefit. I agree.
I agree. But how many humans do you know that
can change overnight like that? That's what we
do, though. I mean, yeah, people get into rigid
patterns when they can afford to. But when you
come to the point of, okay, you either have to
do something different or you don't eat today,
that's when people decide, you know what, I think
I'm willing to do something that's outside of
my comfort zone. My mother started a sentence
with, if people were smart, and I said stop.
You're right. But throw it off the table. And
I don't even hate humans. I heard you say human
beings suck or humans suck. I don't believe that.
I don't either. I made a video with that title
and so many people want that message that that
video has done very well. It was not my intention
to feed that beast. Yeah, me either. I am not
talking down to anyone. I'm not. They did not
become aware of what I think is important because
of a ton of different reasons. I'm not talking
down to them. And hey, this was a line I told
you in the email where if this isn't the thing
that brings emergence, then this system is the
most resilient thing I've ever seen and I will
never believe that it can ever get destroyed.
A comet can be coming down and I will believe
that we will make it through. Because I'm with
you. If this thing works, if people do what they
need to do and change and it all becomes a better
thing, I'm in. Good for us. Well, let me back
off my position a little bit if this is how it's
coming across. Because an extinction -level event,
dinosaur killing, comet, will kill our civilization
too. We're not surviving that. Right. I was being
hyperbolic. You talked about a magnetic pulse
or an EMP. If that was, you know, an attack from
another country, it's got to be detonated at
a high altitude, which means it has to come in
on a missile. Not many countries that are willing
to get into a war with the U .S. have access
to that technology. That was just my flavor of
choice back in the day. But a coronal mass ejection
that hits the Earth head on, you know, those
things are directional. That's not an omnidirectional
pulse that goes out from the sun. It is definitely
directional. So most of them miss us. But one
that hits us square. is going to take down the
electric grid on half the planet, and it will
be down for years. It won't be the end of our
species, but it very well could be the end of
our civilization. It's just that these events,
while utterly catastrophic, and they're absolutely
guaranteed to happen eventually, the timescales
on which you estimate these things are huge.
So if you're deciding what you're going to major
in in college, don't think about the coronal
mass ejection or the extinction level. impact.
Those are not the problems of an individual human
lifetime. If they happen when you're alive, well,
that sucks. I mean, that sucks because you can't
prepare for that. That's all I think just happened.
That's all I think just happened. That event
you talk about was the corona, and it was the
pin that popped this economy thing. Whatever
this economy thing is, popped it. It was no one's
fault. It just happened while at this moment
in time. So, I mean, I feel like it's doing the
damage though. I think it's, it's our maladaptive
response to it and our lack of preparation, you
know, rational preparation that's really causing
the damage. But I think this virus is, it's kind
of, it's got training wheels on it. This is what
I've been saying. You're listening to the Sea
Realm podcast with your host KMO. That was Brent
Bednarik and the conversation with Brent will
continue in the next episode of the Sea Realm
Vault podcast. And that will be Sea Realm Vault
podcast episode number 361. Sunday, April 12th,
2020. Easter. The light of consciousness shines
on everyone, but not everyone gains access to
the vault. Hey, everybody, KMO here. And wow,
here we are, Easter 2020. This was the time a
few weeks ago, Donald Trump said we were going
to come out of our huddle and get back to, you
know, economic action today. Probably not today,
you know, tomorrow. And that's not happening.
And I don't. I don't like to listen to Donald
Trump, and I'm not familiar with everything he
said. Surely he said many a very stupid thing
in the last couple of weeks. As I said in the
podcast that you heard a few weeks back with
Jim Kunstler, because I don't go in for the absurd,
hysterical, ridiculous criticisms that the left
makes of Donald Trump, I come off as a Trump
supporter. But I don't like the guy. I don't
like his policies. And I... I find his personality
off -putting, to say the least. And I think he
has absolutely zero intellectual qualification
to cope with the current situation that he really
does need to be deferring to technocrats, much
as I hate to say it. I mean, there is a strong
argument to be made for a pandemic is no time
for democracy. And really, when it comes to public
health, the government takes on behalf of the
citizenry should never be up for a vote. Some
people have informed reasons for holding a particular
opinion on certain topics, and most people don't.
Most people, myself included, have absolutely
no basis for putting forth an opinion as to how
many ventilators the federal government should
stockpile in a time when there's no sight of
a specific pandemic on the horizon. In hindsight,
I think, yes. People like me can certainly hold
the opinion and be justified in doing so that
the number that was arrived at was inadequate.
But I doubt it's because the technocrats and
the employees of government bodies like the CDC
underestimated what would be necessary. I think
we've all heard of... reports brought to light
saying this is a possibility. And if, you know,
should a pandemic occur, we are not prepared
for it. Such messages went unheeded. So I don't
blame the technocrats. And there's just certain
things that shouldn't be up for a vote. The methodology
for municipal wastewater treatment should not
be up for a vote because most people are not
qualified to hold an opinion on that. And they're
even less qualified to impose their opinion on
people who know better. All right. So what you're
going to hear in this episode is more conversation
with Brent Bednarik. And I apologize in the podcast
that I put out. I think I pronounced his name
Badnarik. You know, Michael Badnarik was the
Libertarian Party candidate. Oh, I forget which
election cycle. One of the, you know, the aughts.
2004, perhaps. That sounds about right. So I've
heard and said Michael Badnarik many times. heard
and said Brent Bednarik far fewer times. And
I think I pronounced his last name Bednarik in
the podcast. And before I get into the conversation
with Brent Bednarik, the remainder of the conversation,
there's about a half hour left. I want to say
early on. In the conversation, I oversimplify
something. I basically say Moore's law has come
to an end and computers aren't improving anymore.
And I completely understand, I even understood
in the moment, I just didn't stop to correct
myself, that that's not true. The specific process,
which has maintained a pretty consistent level
of price performance improvements in computing
hardware over the past several decades, is coming
to an end. There's only so, I mean, the process
has been shrinking. the, you know, the circuit
patterns that are etched into silicon. And there
is just, there is a limit as to how far you can
shrink that before the pathways that you're sending
electrons down don't really effectively convey
electrons. You know, they'll start to jump the
track. That process, while nearing its end, hasn't
completely reached its end. But more importantly,
and you don't need to write to me to tell me
this, I understand, there are other ways to...
improve computer performance, you know, to improve
the power of computer hardware, other than just
relying on Moore's law of, you know, increasingly
smaller, denser circuits printed into chips.
And likely, although I don't think it's going
to happen anytime soon, there will be a new computer
paradigm which replaces integrated circuits altogether.
whether it'll be optical computing, quantum computing,
DNA computing. I mean, there's something that
none of us have ever heard of. I have no idea.
Eventually, there will be a new methodology for
creating computer hardware, which produces improvements
that are an order of magnitude or more over the
current paradigm. But I don't have any expectation
that that's going to happen, that I'll see it.
It might not happen in my lifetime. It might
happen five years from now, and I will, you know.
look silly for having made such a conservative
statement, but I don't expect, like artificial
general intelligence, I don't expect to see in
my lifetime. I know the few, very few singularitarians
out there in the Sea Realm Vault audience will
disagree and think that I've just made an absurd
statement. So it goes. This applies to both conversations
that you'll hear in this episode. The first one
is with Brent Bednarik. And the second one is
some remainder conversation with James Howard
Kunstler. We're in a time when events are moving
rapidly, particularly with respect to the pandemic.
And I think that opinions have a very short shelf
life in this moment. You know, if somebody makes
a statement or a prediction, which a couple of
weeks later seems far weaker than it was in the
moment they made it, I think that's understandable
and forgivable. And I hope that I will be forgiven
for my misstatements in this period. But that
is the risk when you knowingly talk into a microphone,
record yourself, and put it out there for the
public to evaluate, dissect, throw back at you.
It's the risk you take. It's the risk I take.
So I am inclined to be more forgiving of people
who, you know, make bold statements in public,
which time is not kind to. And maybe as you listen
to this segment of conversation with Brent Bednarik
coming up, you'll understand why this thought
came to mind. It occurred to me in editing the
conversation with Brent that Barack Obama was
the Marcus Aurelius of the American empire. What
am I talking about? Marcus Aurelius was an intellectual,
you know, sagacious Roman emperor. He wrote,
philosophy. I think he may have written poetry
as well. He was the scholar emperor, and yet
he was the embodiment of a corrupt system. And
he left the empire, you know, under the care
of his reckless, irresponsible son, Commodus.
It seemed like he should have known better, but
he didn't challenge the system, you know, which
was the basis of his power. And he didn't reform
it in any meaningful way before he passed it
off to somebody else. Okay, and with those disjointed
comments out of the way, here is the conclusion
of my recent conversation with Brent Bednarik.
I don't think it's the virus that's doing the
damage, though. I think it's our maladaptive
response to it and our lack of preparation, you
know, rational preparation that's really causing
the damage. But I think this virus, it's got
training wheels on it. This is what I've been
saying to various people when I talk to them
about this issue is that, you know, this thing
is largely sparing of young people and it focuses
mostly on older people and, you know, like smokers
and people with compromised immune systems. Imagine
if it was the reverse. Imagine if this virus
preferentially killed children and spared the
elderly. we would be freaking out. I mean, utterly
freaking out as a society. I would be right there
with everybody else who had totally abandoned
all rationality. And if, you know, if it's my
kids or your life, well, sorry, your life is
forfeit. And parents are like that. So, you know,
this, this virus, hopefully we can learn some
things as, you know, as a sprawling, chaotic,
overbuilt, too complex system, we can adapt.
to this event and hopefully respond more adaptively
to the next one which could be much much worse
objectively speaking in terms of death rate and
you know even in terms of transmission rate it
could be worse see i'm with you like i think
that's reasonable i think what i think this is
kind of again what we started off on this you
have decided that this idea that it's going to
the to the negative you're just like no it doesn't
work like For the time I've been in here, here's
the issues I have, and you're leaning more towards
the positive. Hey, and we're just doing math
in our head, and we're coming to a different
conclusion. And I get that. And that's why I'm
sympathetic to exactly what you're going through,
because I want to do it too. I just can't on
this one. I just can't on this one. I have one
other item on my wish list for this pandemic.
Sure. We're pretty much at the end of Moore's
Law. Like I'm talking to you on a four -year
-old laptop. And in terms of the processing speed
and the size of the hard drive and what it can
do, I have no justification for replacing it.
Even though, you know, two or three laptops back,
a four -year -old laptop is a dinosaur. You know,
so Moore's law has slowed down. I am hoping we
get to a point where electronics go from being
disposable consumer goods to durable goods. Like,
you don't worry about paying $3 ,000 for a good
laptop computer because you know it's going to
last 15, 20 years and that it will be as serviceable
and able to handle new software, you know, 10
years from now as it is the day that you buy
it. And that, you know, when we become less price
sensitive in terms, when it comes to electronics,
we'll be willing to pay the premium of having
it built here, you know, by unionized American
workers making 25 bucks an hour. Because if you
don't plan to replace it next year, and we have
a whole cast of people who get a new cell phone
every single year, even though it cost them $2
,000, if you expect it to last 20 years, you
can pay for American built. And that is an element
in a prosperous society where everybody has something
to do and is well taken care of by this economy.
See, okay, let me say, I would love to say, That's
a possibility, right? Because I agree with you.
What's not to like? We're not digging up as many
rare earth metals, so we're not polluting as
much to get the stuff you need for the smartphone
because you have it for 10 years. Yeah, I mean,
it can't get that much better. It's the same
thing, right? I'm with you. I'm with you on all
that. Less pollution, bring some jobs back, 100%.
But I just go back to kind of what you were talking
about earlier, where if it gets bad, the rich
are just going to get richer. They're just going
to play their same games if it gets better. It's
got to be the reset. Like these systems, like
these companies, they can't get away from that
model. That's just what they know. And the get
local model, it has to emerge to take the place
of what we have eventually. It has to grow into
that because these people aren't going to adapt.
I mean, I was in the corporate world. It's just
a mindset. Just like the culture of a country.
There's no changing it. It's on its path and
it just continues that. I agree. I think that
would be a lovely thing for things to get more
local and things to be more permanent. But I
just think for that to happen, it's just like
a forest fire. It's got to burn all the way down
for something like that to happen. We may need
a political revolution, like a real revolution
where... People who have not been elected, but
who have guns go into the office and say, you're
not the office holder anymore. And we hope that
those people are the type of people we want doing
it, right? Invariably, they're not. Because in
any chaotic time, the person who picks up a gun
and seizes power is not morally superior to the
person who was holding power before. They're
just more adaptable and they're more resilient.
You know, they've got grit. Well, I'd say he's
rich, but he doesn't have grit. Yeah, I mean,
or I would say that the odds of them having both
that grit and the moral fiber are pretty low.
Yeah, very low, right? We can hope for it. Like,
let's really do it. But the odds just don't work
out in that favor. Okay. All right. Well, hey,
man, if people have resources and they're thinking
about doing things, now might be a good time
to go, there's some uncertainty in this world.
The world is in play. There's a lot going on.
maybe the Republic of Texas comes back and is
a thing. Well, is that the worst place in the
world to be? I mean, there's some pros and cons.
Maybe California tries to do it. Maybe the US
breaks up into regions, just like you were saying
China does. I mean, that's where I'm talking
about. I think that reset happened and you can
remake yourself into whoever you want right now
because the chaos is going to allow for just...
The delta, the change, the delta is going to
be pretty high. What do you mean by that? There's
a financial calculation that they call it a delta.
And it's the change in the volatility and the
percentage of everything. It's the delta of a
stock. And it's just another way financial people
value stocks, right? So they call it the delta,
the change. I think the delta on this one is
going to be pretty high. Now, will it all be
positive? Yeah, it could. Will it all be negative?
It could. Could it be 50 -50? It could. You just
got to look at the probabilities. So the delta
is a measure of volatility? Change, yeah. Change?
Yeah, there's a volatility in text, but yeah,
the delta is a change. Mathematicians came up
with it. I don't really understand it. I just
know the change, it's the delta. What's going
to be the spread kind of a thing? So you say
you got rid of most of your firearms? Well, yeah,
until this all happened. And then I used the
old credit card and went back to what I know.
For decades, I've been voting libertarian, which
I will not be doing anymore. But I'm strongly
in favor of the Second Amendment and the right
to bear arms on an intellectual level. Myself,
I'm unarmed. I have no weapons here where I live.
I did get to fire an AR -15 last fall. What an
anticlimactic experience. It's like this little
toy. I got to fire a 12 -gauge shotgun in the
same outing, and that had some kinetic action.
That was satisfying. A pump -action shotgun,
that was for real. The AK -47 was like playing
a video game. it doesn't make much noise. There's
not much recoil. It's just, and it's a little
gun. Well, I don't, I don't know exactly what
you shot. You might've shot like an AR pistol
or something. It's a rifle, but compared to the
shotgun, it just, it wasn't like, I'm, I'm a
large person. An AR 15 looks small. So you're
saying the, the big black scary rifle wasn't
as big and black and scary as you thought it
was black. Okay. I'll grant you that. It was
painted black. So, okay. For all the gun guys
and girls who are listening to you, this is one
of the things that just drives us crazy. There
was a video that showed this guy and he had,
I don't even, I think he was just in AR and he
was given a press conference of why this thing
was the worst ever. And he couldn't even. identify
what it was like he would call it a clip he said
it was a magazine like he didn't know the caliber
and when gun people a lot of times talk to not
you know anti -gun people you can ask them you
know what's the number 90 well have you ever
fired a gun and the answer is no they know nothing
about them they know absolutely nothing because
the truth is guns And how they're built and what
people can do are not nearly as bad as they think
they are in one stance. But then kind of on the
other stance, they can be wicked and they can
make them even worse. Because it's just a technology.
It's a very simple technology. It's just metal.
There's no circuitry in it. It's just all mechanical.
And we can do a ton of things with it. So any
of these people who talk about... restrictions
or this or that or bans or whatever they realize
they you automatically realize one they don't
know anything about guns or two they're just
it's just a slow step to get them all banned
and most of the people who support that know
nothing about guns it's actually pretty funny
and people who know nothing about guns but are
really bent out of shape over assault rifles
They just can't seem to process, because I've
encountered and had conversations with many such
people, and I point out, look, almost all gun
crimes are committed with handguns. You know,
all the gun crimes that involve a rifle is like
3%, and assault rifle is a subset of that 3%.
It is a minuscule, you know, it is the outlier,
and you don't make laws based on the outlier
cases in a rational society. Right. those you
know that tiny fraction of that three percent
some of those incidents were you know really
telegenic and spectacular and attention grabbing
and in such moments and we have this media that
you know they have to fill multiple channels
of content 24 7 And if it involves violence and
civil disruption, wow, that's exciting. They're
going to play it over and over and over again.
And for people who are just responding with their
limbic system and not thinking about these things,
every time they hear the story about the shooting,
it's like they lived through it again. And so
we're living at a time of unprecedented personal
safety. And yet, because of the media and because
people have opinions about things they don't
know anything about, really. We live in a psychological
environment that is steeped in fear. People think
that they're in great personal danger. Well,
they are because they drive cars. So if you're
rational and if you're thinking about what's
really a danger to you, you should be really
selective about when you get in a car and drive
it somewhere. Yeah, I completely agree. 100%,
right? But I've actually thought about it too
because when I did sell my ARs and I did get
into the whole yoga thing. I was kind of looking
around going, this thing, this thing's pretty
safe. I'm not heading to Chicago. I'm not heading.
I know where not to go. And I know where I, where
myself should be. And I do look around and I'm
like, it is pretty safe. And I did sell mine.
And I did realize I'm like, I just really don't
want to take a human life now. I just like, I'm
not trying to be a superhero. I'm not like, I
don't know if I need one anymore. And I did.
And I sold them all. Well, not all of them. Not
all of them. But that really was my mindset.
And with everything that was going on, I got
to tell you, the far left made me change my mind.
The far left made me come up with an argument
that I think kind of should be the end all be
all. Like, I don't want to have an argument about
a 30 round magazine. I just, like, I'm not having
that argument. What I say is, if you take countries
that are similar to the US, so what does that
mean? Pretty large, really large, militaristic,
right? Diverse population. Okay, who can you
compare those to? Well, I think we can compare
ourselves a little bit to Russia and I think
a little bit to China in certain aspects. And
people want to say, well, gun control works in
other places like Australia. I don't think we're
the same as Australia. I think we're the same
as these kind of big countries. And they have
gone the left route. They went the left route.
what it turned out to be was a lot of gulags.
And I think of myself, I go, are school shootings
awful? Do I understand why some of these young
kids in Florida are yelling at us because they
fear going to school because of the shooting?
I sit there and I go, I'm sympathetic to them.
I get that. I never had to deal with that. Yeah,
you're right. If you have this active shooter
drills, that will leave an impression on you
and not in a good way. So, and to the mothers
out there who are like, I don't want my baby
shot. I can't argue that. But what I do know
is, or what I do think is, is the left, for some
reason, ends in gulags. And I know myself, and
I know I would rather get shot any day than be
put on a train and sent up to a re -education
camp in Wisconsin freezing my balls off. Like,
I'm lazy. That sounds very uncomfortable to me.
And if I had to choose between guns or gulags...
I have decided the gun is the way I want to go
out. And I don't think that's an unfair statement.
And what the wokesters have demonstrated, wherever
they manage to snatch even a little tiny piece
of power, they immediately use it to coerce people.
Immediately. With absolutely no self -consciousness
and no indication whatsoever of any sort of reticence
to exercise their newly acquired power. It is
something about the leftist mentality that, yes,
it leads to... firing squads and public shamings
and, you know, all manner of really vicious,
ugly behavior. Now, of course, we've seen the
right break bad as well, but the left seems to
do it like on cue. Like there's a very short
sequence that leads to that. And it all goes
the same way. And I'm not even against the left.
I really like Chris Hedges. I really like that
guy. And he said that the left really shouldn't
be in power. they should be in power like 40
like it should be 55 45 republican you know right
left the rights are good managers that kind that
keep the trains on the tracks the 45 are good
ideas and the heart and everything but you got
to do this balance and we kind of are better
when we have a little bit more of that conscientious
That control. Hey, and I'm all for the left coming
in at the right time. No child labor, like, you
know, women's suffrage, all that kind of stuff.
Perfectly for it. Universal health care. Sure.
Show me a plan. Right. Show me a plan on how
we get there. And I'm not against it. I mean,
I do think that there I do think that the more
control you give, the more you centralize something,
the worse it goes, which is kind of the left.
Right. So maybe universal healthcare, we just
can't get there because it's too much control.
I don't know. Is it awful right now? Does it
have a ton of flaws? Yeah. Do I prefer it, man?
I don't know. I don't know if I want them to
have that control. I'm in the VA. I've been to
VA in Las Vegas, in Dallas, in New York. I don't
think you want the VA. I really don't. I don't
think anyone wants that. And if I were ill. And,
you know, I had access to the VA. I would certainly
take it because I don't have access to anything
else. I'm 14 years away from Medicare right now.
That's my health plan. Stay healthy for the next
14 years. Right. And I don't disparage you for
that, right? If situation reversed, I'd be the
exact same way. I just, I still, I don't know
if I want that power to be in those knuckleheads
hands because it could be a trouble again. What's
the alternative? I mean, whose hands is it in
now? How is it that we have a private interest
buys up a drug, which should be in the public
domain, they make a slight tweak to it, and then
they put two zeros on the end of the price? Don't
argue with you. I don't argue with you. Where's
the country in the world whose economy was crashed
by having universal health care? Not going to
argue with you. Where's the country where the
people are clamoring to pay more because they'd
rather have a private system? Nobody who has
it wants to get rid of it. And we don't have
it. And a lot of people here would like to have
it. Okay. So I hear you. I hear you. But there's
a cost to these things. And that's what I don't
see on either side. Like there's a pro and a
con to both sides. And everyone talks about their
pros and not their cons. And that's what gets
us in trouble. Everything you just mentioned,
I'm agreeable to that to an extent. Yeah. If
you show me some things, I'm going to believe
you. Right. But what's the con? Well, people
are more on the government tip. They have more
power. We become less resilient. I see in the
United States, we become fatter. Well, the fatter
we, I don't want to pay for fat people. I don't.
Paying $100 ,000 for, you know, an appendectomy
when it could be done for 10 doesn't make people
fat. No, no. Predatory for -profit healthcare
system isn't what's causing us to be unhealthy.
I'm not arguing that solution either. And I would
even say the food and the fast food and what
we do. Completely, yeah. So that's why I'm really
not upset about this reset. That's why I'm kind
of hoping this really is a reset. I'd love to
see the Monsantos of the world go bye -bye. I'd
love to see JP Morgan not be here anymore. I
would. I have no affinity for this. I feel like
some people use this American way of life or
whatever we are because we're God's greatest
country. No, we can be better. We can do better.
And I hope that happens. That's why I'm hopeful.
You know, I've lived in Australia and Australians
enjoy a better quality of life. They have a government
that is more responsive to human needs than the
United States. I mean, just as a person who has
lived in both places, I can tell you, Australia
does it a lot better for people of normal means.
You know, if you have a lot of money, the U .S.
is great. It is amazing. The health care system
is amazing. If you're a millionaire. You wouldn't
want to subject yourself to somebody else's nationalized,
everybody gets a piece healthcare system. You
might have to wait in line. Hey, I hear you.
This is what I think happened. I think the United
States has such a good marketing thing that people
who want to work their ass off to be rich and
make money, which there's a lot of people who
that's their goal. They know where to go. I'll
go to America. They have that destination. what
you're looking for, like whatever country provides
that, I mean, it might be Australia. They just
don't have a good enough marketing program to
get you there. And I mean, that might sound like
someone who can, you know, who has a little bit
of, maybe a little bit of money to be able to
have that option and not very, very, very, very,
very, very, very few people have that option.
But I think that's, I think that's what this
whole thing of America was. People would scrape
to get here to make that money. And that's how
we grew. And that just became. That just became
the underlying culture of our economy. And then
people who don't have the genetic emotional tendencies,
like the five personality traits, and that's
not where they want to be. That's not what they
see value in. I could see how they look at America
and they're like, this thing's completely crazy.
And I hear you. I am on your side. I agree with
that. But I also see the other side of why people...
try to get here and what that mentality does
bring to the table in some ways. There's a cost,
but there's also some benefits. So I'm open to
hear it all. And if it works, hey, let's try
it. But anything the government gets involved
in, they never leave. I think about welfare,
and I just see that as the worst thing we could
ever do to the human spirit. I mean, especially
that multi -generational thing. I just think.
I look at that from behind and I guess I'm judging
it, but I just think that's got to be the most
aggravating lifestyle there is. For me. Yeah.
No, I'm with you. I was an Andrew Yang supporter,
but universal basic income was not the thing
that made me like him. I supported Andrew Yang
in spite of his UBI proposal. Some people can
take that $1 ,000 a month and put it to really
good use and live a very effective, satisfying
life. But a lot of folks will just go with the
flow and respond to the incentives that are presented
to them. And we live in an environment defined
by maladaptive, perverse incentives. We are incentivized
to do stupid stuff that is bad for us all the
time. And because it's fun and it feels good.
What's that? It's fun and it feels good. I'm
going to make a prediction right now. Everyone
gets their $1 ,200 or $1 ,300 or whatever the
amount is. You know, and this is what I consider
an IQ thing. There is never going to be more
sneakers bought. Maybe. That's fine. I have no
problem with people buying sneakers. I mean,
even if they're overpriced sneakers. With the
$1 ,200 that's supposed to be for food? I'm just
saying. Like, I'm not against it. Do with it
whatever you want. But I think there's going
to be articles to show what people spent their
money on. And you're just going to shake your
head in disbelief. And I think that's just the
way it is. And I don't judge. If you give money
to people who are impulsive and who are just
going to spend it on tangible stuff immediately,
that's an amazing stimulus for the economy. When
you give it to banks and say, loan it to people.
And they say, nah, we're just going to sit on
it. That's not any sort of stimulus. I'm not
arguing with you. Yeah. I mean, I have absolutely
no problem with people getting their money from
the government and buying computers or TVs or
shoes or whatever. But it's a real thing that
somebody made and somebody sold and somebody
transported and they're generating economic activity
every step along the way. And somebody at the
end of the line who wouldn't otherwise have had
the money to buy it did. Great. Great. I'm going
to make your argument stronger for you. And that
is the just punch to the gut that it is watching
the circus try to get this money to everyone,
the length of time and the ups and downs. And
it's going to be three weeks from the, that's
what Mnuchin said, right? That thing is insane
compared to the Federal Reserve pushes a button.
and gives 10 times that amount to the banks.
And they've been doing it for the last three
weeks. You're not writing checks. No, they can
immediately give $700 billion. No one even batted
an eye. No one questioned it. No one said anything.
Nobody said, how are we going to pay for it?
No, it's just foregone conclusion. Talk about
a moral hazard. So yeah, and then to give each
one of us $1 ,300 is this act of God to do it.
I'm completely on your side. in that regard i'm
not arguing with you i don't think they should
give it to the banks but it still doesn't make
me wrong that they're going to buy whatever they're
going to buy and it's just what they're going
to do i can't get mad at a big dumb dog being
a big dumb dog but when i look about all this
and when people start realizing that they got
a measly 1300 to shut up because that's what
it is it's hush money yeah and they realize money
right and And then finally, when a number comes
out about how much the Fed has given to our banks
and other banks and other central banks, and
that amount of money comes out, I mean, they're
going to go crazy. They're going to go nuts.
Here's my fear for the bad effects of handing
out money to everybody. Around here, it's just
going to mean an increase in overdose deaths.
That's my sneakers. Yeah, but it's very different.
I wish that the people who are hooked on heroin
and who, you know, were dying and who would only
take it, you know, with a partner so that one
can give Narcan to the other if, you know, somebody
starts to, if they stop breathing. I hear you.
I wish they were hooked on expensive sneakers.
That would be such an improvement. I hear you.
I have Narcan in a drawer over there. I don't
use heroin, but it is entirely responsible for
me to have an anti -overdose drug on hand. Even
though I don't know who, you know, I might need
to use it on. There's so much addiction around
here that it is just, you know, it is the responsible
thing. It's like having a fire extinguisher.
I agree. So sneakers, man. I get it. I get it.
But if they buy sneakers and not food, they're
going to get hungry, hungry that much quicker.
And then when those parents don't have food for
their kids, who's. crying at night just like
you said my kids hunger is more important than
you and you know we have on this continent the
largest continuous swath of high value high productivity
agricultural land in the world interlaced with
long navigable rivers people starvation is not
going to be the problem here more people will
die from you know cold because they can't they
don't have utilities they don't have heat more
people will die from adverse drug interactions
i mean starvation is not it shouldn't be on your
list of concerns okay well let me let me throw
out one more scenario for you because i i was
in vegas for a year vegas is in the desert vegas
is in the middle of nowhere yeah vegas only has
one thing that has any power or influence in
the entire state and that's the casinos they've
all shut down. And that's going to be a little
bit for those to get back up and going. Now,
they do make nice shoes in Vegas, right? There's
a big shoe company there? Oh, no, that's just
an internet thing. They're just in between. Oh,
I was in Vegas a few years ago. I stayed with
somebody there. I don't remember the name of
the company, but he pointed out this shoe company
to me. Zappos. What is it? Zappos .com. Zappos?
Yeah. Okay, yeah. They're downtown. They don't
make shoes. They're just the internet provider
to have as many different shoe options at a cheap
price, I think. They don't make anything. The
shoes are made in China? Shoes are made in China.
Just think about this. You're a logistics manager
and your supplies are in Los Angeles because
that's where most likely the goods are going
to come from, the ports, to get to Vegas. The
18 -wheelers are going that. Maybe they're coming
from Arizona. Who knows? But they're probably
coming from LA. Well, if I am a Smiths, Kroger,
or whatever your local grocery store is, if I'm
a manager who's having problems keeping 10 %
on the shelf within a 300 -mile radius of me,
why am I going to go out to Vegas? And I might
not be able to. Like, what if the trucks, it
gets too hot or the parts? Who knows? But they're
in the middle of nowhere. My thing right now
is people need to get to food and water. Get
closer to the food. Because you don't think starvation
is a problem. I mean, hell, you might be right.
But why would I take that risk? Right now, I'm
looking. I surveyed the battlefield. And I say,
I need to get next to food and water. That, to
me, seems like a good idea with all the things
that are going wrong right now. And I don't think
that's overreacting. If I was in Vegas right
now, I would have gotten my car and already left.
I mean, obviously, I left Fort Worth. But give
me one good reason to stay in Vegas right now.
Yeah. There are places where there are more people
living there than the local environment can support
in any sort of rational system. California, all
of Southern California, way too overpopulated.
Nobody should be moving to California. No water.
But at the same time, I'm pretty sure that two,
three, four years from now, you and I will both
be more concerned with carrying extra weight
than we are with not getting enough to eat. You
know what? It's disastrous. Economically, we
can live through a disastrous three or four years,
and we'll still be worried about getting fat
in a few years' time because we are awash in
cheap calories. I hope you're right. I really
do. If people on the comments or whatever think
I'm absolutely out of my mind, man, that would
be lovely. Most of my audience agrees with you
more than they agree with me at this point. And
I get why you're doing what you're doing. I really
do. And you're fighting the good fight. Good
for you. Hey, Brent, that's a good note to close
it on. KMO, you're doing good work. Keep it up.
Great place to end. We just have to wrap it up
because I actually have to leave my stronghold
here and go out and shoot some video for the
local TV station. And these file sizes, once
they get over an hour, they get unmanageable
and we're well over an hour. Okay. All right.
Well, hey, it was fun. It was great meeting you
and hope to do it again sometime. We will do
it again. As Jim likes to say, we will ride again.
Absolutely. All right. See ya. Take care. Sorry,
we had some initial trouble connecting. But now,
see, my iMac had to get wiped because I had some
kind of a software problem. So a lot of things
that had been installed became uninstalled. And
that only happened like two, three days ago.
I have the reverse problem. You know, you're
a Mac guy. I'm a PC and Android guy. But I have
an iPad. that I got because I wanted to draw
on it because I like the Apple Pencil. It is
my favorite, you know, digital stylus. But I
hate everything else about Apple. I hate the
operating system. I hate the design aesthetic.
I just hate everything about it. So I go months
without opening the iPad. But yesterday I opened
it because I had signed up for an online course
in graphic narrative, which, you know. Part of
the course was using a program called Procreate,
which is only available for the iPad. So I got
the iPad out, and I just got into this really
frustrating, you know, password dance with Apple.
I needed to unzip a file. And apparently to unzip
a file, I had to download a particular app from
the App Store. But to do that, I had to log in.
And I, you know, I don't use the thing, so I
don't know what my password is. And every time
I open the iPad, I end up resetting my password.
Every password that I know and have committed
to memory, I have used with Apple before and
they won't let me use them again. So, you know,
it's just so, so frustrating to me that it's
this weird sort of boutique approach to computing.
And I'm just used to, there are programs, there
are files, files rest in a particular place in
a nested hierarchy that I can access with the
computer and I can. you know, given the file
type, I can open it with any program I want.
And it just doesn't work that way with the Mac.
And it drives me insane. Well, I was on the phone.
It totally knocked me right out of any creative,
you know, thought process. I was on the phone
with Apple a lot over the weekend. And because
I, you know, I wiped the hard drive and I had
to set up a whole bunch of things. And they changed
their iTunes apps and programs so that they're,
to me, they were like incomprehensible. And I
told the lady on the phone that if Steve Jobs
was still alive, he would go up to Tim Cook's
office and pistol whip him for doing that. You
know, Steve Jobs is the architect of a lot of
what I hate about Apple. Yeah, well. It doesn't
play well with any other manufacturer. Everything
has to be its own thing. It can't be standardized
and comprehensible to people from the general
world. It's sort of the hardware equivalent of
AOL. Well, the thing about Apple products that
I really, really hate the most is that, and I
think this came from Steve Jobs, is that in this
attempt to achieve the ultimate design sleekness,
they hide everything. So you can't find anything.
Like, where's the toggle? Oh, it's hiding behind
these two dots over here in the corner, you know?
Well, how the fuck am I supposed to know that
that's where I go to change the volume level?
You know what I mean? It's just insane. The sleekness
that they impose on all their products is just
maddening. I agree. And there's lots of people
who absolutely don't. And, you know, if anything
we've said is going to generate hate mail, it
will be anti -Apple sentiment. Uh -oh. Well,
I'll gird my loins for that. All right. Hey,
Jim, before we go, this is in the vault now.
Okay. What do you think of the response to coronavirus
in just basically shutting down all economic
activity, nobody going to work except people
who are absolutely essential, most of us hiding
out at home? Do you think that this is the correct
approach? It's very hard to say, and the arguments
have been out there, and they're kind of obvious.
The main one is... You know, you have to flatten
the curve so you don't overwhelm the medical
system. And that's an argument. You know, I can't
argue with that. You know, I've had some correspondence
with a fan who writes to me regularly, and he
insists that the whole thing is a hoax and that
it's, you know, the Democratic Party, the DNC
in China ganged up on Trump to, you know, put
this virus into the system to get rid of Trump.
My basic position about this is that I can't
see all these other countries doing the same
thing if there wasn't some pretty good reason
for it. I mean, why would New Zealand and Argentina...