WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.040 Sea Realm Vault Podcast, episode number 323. 00:00:03.259 --> 00:00:09.800 Friday, January 4th, 2019. The light of consciousness 00:00:09.800 --> 00:00:13.800 shines on everyone, but not everyone gains access 00:00:13.800 --> 00:00:46.869 to the vault. Hey, Serum Vault subscribers. Happy 00:00:46.869 --> 00:00:49.549 New Year. I've got to keep this super short. 00:00:49.649 --> 00:00:53.030 I'm having technical difficulties and my computer 00:00:53.030 --> 00:00:55.369 is really not up to the big files that I need 00:00:55.369 --> 00:00:57.289 it to be able to tackle in order to make podcasts. 00:00:57.530 --> 00:01:00.890 So I just have to be very brief in my statements 00:01:00.890 --> 00:01:03.429 here. What you have in this episode of the podcast 00:01:03.429 --> 00:01:05.469 is a recording that I made on the first of the 00:01:05.469 --> 00:01:09.400 year. with a blogger who listens to the Sea Realm 00:01:09.400 --> 00:01:12.939 podcast or who had years ago. He'll explain his 00:01:12.939 --> 00:01:17.840 connection to the realm. His name is Bob Brown. 00:01:17.959 --> 00:01:21.120 He contacted me and basically he convinced me 00:01:21.120 --> 00:01:23.120 that he would be somebody who would be worth 00:01:23.120 --> 00:01:25.719 getting on Zoom to have a chat with, particularly 00:01:25.719 --> 00:01:29.340 since he represents a set of concerns which I 00:01:29.340 --> 00:01:31.359 know are still very important to a large percentage 00:01:31.359 --> 00:01:33.079 of the Sea Realm audience and which are just... 00:01:33.640 --> 00:01:36.799 Really old news to me. So I'm going to play a 00:01:36.799 --> 00:01:39.519 couple segments from a YouTube video. This is 00:01:39.519 --> 00:01:42.359 from a couple years back. Basically, I read out 00:01:42.359 --> 00:01:46.299 a question about solar, the returns on solar, 00:01:46.379 --> 00:01:50.540 and also the rapid advances in electric car technology. 00:01:50.859 --> 00:01:53.599 This comes from Eric Boyd, who is probably the 00:01:53.599 --> 00:01:56.900 single most technophilic and optimistic repeat 00:01:56.900 --> 00:01:59.790 guest on the Sea Realm podcast. And basically 00:01:59.790 --> 00:02:02.790 his whole point of view was handed back to him, 00:02:02.849 --> 00:02:05.629 absolutely rejected by all the folks at the table. 00:02:05.670 --> 00:02:08.150 But the answers to the question that I got from 00:02:08.150 --> 00:02:10.909 Chris Martinson and Dmitry Orlov are the ones 00:02:10.909 --> 00:02:13.669 that are still most interesting to me now in 00:02:13.669 --> 00:02:16.310 hindsight a couple of years later. So I sent 00:02:16.310 --> 00:02:19.750 that video to Bob, this week's guest, and he 00:02:19.750 --> 00:02:21.289 watched it and we are going to comment on it. 00:02:21.330 --> 00:02:23.449 So I'm not going to play that whole video in 00:02:23.449 --> 00:02:25.789 this episode, but I am going to play the answers 00:02:25.789 --> 00:02:29.449 from Dmitry Orlov and Chris Martinson. And actually, 00:02:29.569 --> 00:02:32.150 in the video, they come in the reverse order 00:02:32.150 --> 00:02:35.610 that you'll hear them here on this podcast. All 00:02:35.610 --> 00:02:37.889 right, so first up, you'll hear from Chris Martinson, 00:02:37.969 --> 00:02:41.090 and then my conversation with Bob Brown. And 00:02:41.090 --> 00:02:43.469 then in the middle, I will also cut in Dmitry 00:02:43.469 --> 00:02:46.409 Orlov's answer to the question of, yo, how can 00:02:46.409 --> 00:02:48.610 you guys still be such peak oil conversions when 00:02:48.610 --> 00:02:52.490 solar electricity and electric cars are coming 00:02:52.490 --> 00:03:00.449 along so quickly? And fantasies often don't come 00:03:00.449 --> 00:03:04.110 with numbers. So here's some numbers. Okay. Let's 00:03:04.110 --> 00:03:05.990 hear it for the number man. I'm the number guy. 00:03:06.050 --> 00:03:08.229 You're the number guy. Hit it. So if Elon Musk 00:03:08.229 --> 00:03:10.830 manages to sell 500 ,000 cars a year, which is 00:03:10.830 --> 00:03:13.729 up from about 80 ,000 this year, that number 00:03:13.729 --> 00:03:15.909 of electric cars, as they're currently configured, 00:03:16.069 --> 00:03:18.889 will consume 100 % of the world's mining source 00:03:18.889 --> 00:03:22.009 of lithium. So I'm going to imagine China has 00:03:22.009 --> 00:03:23.810 something to say about that, and Japan is going 00:03:23.810 --> 00:03:25.490 to, and Germany and other countries will say, 00:03:25.590 --> 00:03:29.810 but even if you did 500 ,000 cars growing exponentially, 00:03:30.090 --> 00:03:33.250 don't forget that, 500 ,000 at a current run 00:03:33.250 --> 00:03:35.729 rate of about 17 .5 million cars sold is about 00:03:35.729 --> 00:03:39.349 3%. So for the United States to supplant just 00:03:39.349 --> 00:03:41.810 3 % of the current sales volume will require 00:03:41.810 --> 00:03:45.310 100 % of current lithium. And that's just one 00:03:45.310 --> 00:03:47.770 bottleneck. That's just one. I got more, right? 00:03:48.090 --> 00:03:52.909 Yeah. You're good. You're good. So fantasies, 00:03:52.909 --> 00:03:55.050 as you're talking about, they don't comport with 00:03:55.050 --> 00:03:57.370 reality. They don't stack up to the numbers. 00:03:57.430 --> 00:03:59.189 And I wish these people would just get a crayon 00:03:59.189 --> 00:04:01.870 and a napkin out and just go run through the 00:04:01.870 --> 00:04:08.629 basic numbers. Because they just don't. All righty. 00:04:08.629 --> 00:04:12.639 Well, it is New Year's Day. 2019, and I'm here 00:04:12.639 --> 00:04:15.479 with tech and investment blogger. Is that a fair 00:04:15.479 --> 00:04:20.660 way to say it? Yeah, a modest blogger, but a 00:04:20.660 --> 00:04:23.699 high -tech person. I'm kind of an enabler behind 00:04:23.699 --> 00:04:26.300 a lot of the things you see in the internet. 00:04:26.980 --> 00:04:31.480 Like what? One of thousands of people. Well, 00:04:31.500 --> 00:04:33.779 when you say you are an enabler, what do you 00:04:33.779 --> 00:04:38.120 mean? Okay. But at my work, what we do is actually 00:04:38.120 --> 00:04:43.939 make cooling systems for routers and servers 00:04:43.939 --> 00:04:48.600 that form the backbone of the Internet. So they 00:04:48.600 --> 00:04:51.720 use a lot of power, they generate a lot of heat, 00:04:51.839 --> 00:04:54.680 and they need very advanced cooling systems to 00:04:54.680 --> 00:04:59.139 keep the temperatures down and lower the temperature 00:04:59.139 --> 00:05:03.639 on electronics, the better the reliability. We 00:05:03.639 --> 00:05:06.519 make systems for that. So when you talk on your 00:05:06.519 --> 00:05:09.180 cell phone, you use a computer over the Internet 00:05:09.180 --> 00:05:10.860 and so forth, there's a good chance it's going 00:05:10.860 --> 00:05:14.160 through a router or a server that I had some 00:05:14.160 --> 00:05:19.850 little piece of. So you are definitely not a 00:05:19.850 --> 00:05:22.069 – well, I can't say definitely. I don't know 00:05:22.069 --> 00:05:24.089 you that well. Tell me about your attitude toward 00:05:24.089 --> 00:05:26.089 technology. You're certainly knowledgeable about 00:05:26.089 --> 00:05:29.810 it. What's your level of optimism, say, for the 00:05:29.810 --> 00:05:32.790 ability of the human species to use its technical 00:05:32.790 --> 00:05:35.730 know -how to get out of its current predicament? 00:05:38.670 --> 00:05:42.069 I think there is some hope of using technology 00:05:42.069 --> 00:05:45.410 to do it, but I think we have to drastically 00:05:45.410 --> 00:05:50.410 scale down our energy usage in the future. Technology 00:05:50.410 --> 00:05:54.389 can help do that, but I think we're tending not 00:05:54.389 --> 00:05:57.790 to go in that direction. We're exploiting technology 00:05:57.790 --> 00:06:01.410 to use more energy, and we just keep exponentially 00:06:01.410 --> 00:06:05.189 increasing our energy usage rather than using 00:06:05.189 --> 00:06:07.870 it to reduce it. So I think a lot of things are 00:06:07.870 --> 00:06:12.709 going in the wrong direction, and people throw 00:06:12.709 --> 00:06:16.689 out technology as a hope for the future, but 00:06:16.689 --> 00:06:22.250 the way we use technology kind of has to be redirected. 00:06:24.170 --> 00:06:28.410 Do you like to make the distinction between system 00:06:28.410 --> 00:06:32.069 -dependent technology and useful standalone technologies 00:06:32.069 --> 00:06:34.149 that a lot of appropriate technology people like 00:06:34.149 --> 00:06:38.040 to make? I think there's a lot to the appropriate 00:06:38.040 --> 00:06:43.360 technology scene. Simple, standalone technologies, 00:06:43.620 --> 00:06:45.899 they're resilient, they're not dependent upon 00:06:45.899 --> 00:06:54.779 a very complex web of interrelated technologies 00:06:54.779 --> 00:06:59.420 that take a fair amount of complexity and energy 00:06:59.420 --> 00:07:02.420 to use. So there's something to be said for that. 00:07:03.199 --> 00:07:07.550 I think... We could more selectively in the future 00:07:07.550 --> 00:07:11.529 use some of the very high -tech stuff that takes 00:07:11.529 --> 00:07:15.170 a lot of complexity, but it would have to be 00:07:15.170 --> 00:07:19.529 really looked at for and preserved. So it'd take 00:07:19.529 --> 00:07:22.069 a little bit of a special effort that I don't 00:07:22.069 --> 00:07:25.230 see us doing right now. When you first contacted 00:07:25.230 --> 00:07:28.970 me via email, it seemed like the point of contact 00:07:28.970 --> 00:07:33.110 thematically would be electric cars. Electric 00:07:33.110 --> 00:07:37.540 cars. Let me say just a, I mean, long -time listeners 00:07:37.540 --> 00:07:40.139 will know this, but the Sea Realm audience is 00:07:40.139 --> 00:07:42.259 kind of a strange mix in that, you know, this 00:07:42.259 --> 00:07:44.160 was one of the early podcasts. I started it in 00:07:44.160 --> 00:07:48.100 2006, and most of the audience came in via one 00:07:48.100 --> 00:07:50.779 of two vectors. There was a permanent link on 00:07:50.779 --> 00:07:52.699 the homepage for the Psychedelic Salon podcast, 00:07:52.819 --> 00:07:55.519 which played a lot of old Terrence McKenna. recordings 00:07:55.519 --> 00:07:59.920 and things. And that podcast has a large audience. 00:08:00.040 --> 00:08:01.600 So just a fraction of that audience clicking 00:08:01.600 --> 00:08:05.279 on the permalink to the C -realm from the front 00:08:05.279 --> 00:08:07.600 page of matrixmasters .com brought in a lot of 00:08:07.600 --> 00:08:09.899 people who were interested in psychedelics. And 00:08:09.899 --> 00:08:12.399 then some of the early guests that I had on the 00:08:12.399 --> 00:08:16.000 program, like Jim Kunstler and Dmitry Orlov, 00:08:16.079 --> 00:08:17.480 and then a couple of years later, John Michael 00:08:17.480 --> 00:08:20.300 Greer, that brought in the peak oil crowd. And 00:08:20.300 --> 00:08:23.480 it's kind of a strange mix of people who have, 00:08:23.579 --> 00:08:26.839 you know, on to the sea realm and stayed with 00:08:26.839 --> 00:08:29.120 it for years. So I'm guessing that you're more 00:08:29.120 --> 00:08:32.399 of the peak oil crowd than the psychedelic salon 00:08:32.399 --> 00:08:38.600 crowd. Yes, definitely. I kind of followed John 00:08:38.600 --> 00:08:41.000 Michael Greer and James Howard Kunstler for a 00:08:41.000 --> 00:08:45.220 bit. I came across your podcast actually in an 00:08:45.220 --> 00:08:49.240 odd way. I think you appeared with the guy, Two 00:08:49.240 --> 00:08:53.200 Beers with Steve podcast. Oh, yes. Years ago, 00:08:53.299 --> 00:08:56.840 and I actually came across your podcast through 00:08:56.840 --> 00:08:58.879 that. You were a guest on there, and then you 00:08:58.879 --> 00:09:01.460 interviewed him. And I think his podcast is long 00:09:01.460 --> 00:09:06.159 gone, but I started listening to you. Lost track 00:09:06.159 --> 00:09:09.039 a little while ago, and then caught up with a 00:09:09.039 --> 00:09:11.679 very old high school friend, actually. I hadn't 00:09:11.679 --> 00:09:16.009 seen in 35 years. I was on a different podcast, 00:09:16.090 --> 00:09:18.509 and he happened to listen to that. And then we 00:09:18.509 --> 00:09:20.330 talked for a while, and he brought up your name 00:09:20.330 --> 00:09:23.269 again. I got back listening about it a few years 00:09:23.269 --> 00:09:27.789 ago. It's a small but very select audience that 00:09:27.789 --> 00:09:31.610 listens to the Sea Realm podcast. Small by, you 00:09:31.610 --> 00:09:34.009 know, podcast standards. If it was a church, 00:09:34.070 --> 00:09:35.690 it would be a big church. It would be a big congregation. 00:09:36.690 --> 00:09:40.149 Well, you definitely have a good, steady following. 00:09:41.120 --> 00:09:43.360 Well, let's talk about electric cars for a minute. 00:09:43.399 --> 00:09:48.120 I directed you to a video that I shot. I went 00:09:48.120 --> 00:09:50.759 to an event where John Michael Greer, Dmitry 00:09:50.759 --> 00:09:53.960 Orlov, James Howard Kunstler, Chris Martinson, 00:09:54.080 --> 00:09:57.820 and somebody else who wasn't really a peak oil 00:09:57.820 --> 00:09:59.600 person, but they were all gathered together in 00:09:59.600 --> 00:10:02.419 one room in the makeshift green room waiting 00:10:02.419 --> 00:10:05.419 to go up on stage at an event. And I read out 00:10:05.419 --> 00:10:08.230 a letter. From somebody that I talk to from time 00:10:08.230 --> 00:10:10.429 to time, maybe you'll recognize the name. His 00:10:10.429 --> 00:10:14.549 name is Eric Boyd. He is Canadian. He was one 00:10:14.549 --> 00:10:16.909 of the founders of a tech site, I think it's 00:10:16.909 --> 00:10:21.129 StumbleUpon, which he then sold and made a nice 00:10:21.129 --> 00:10:25.470 chunk of change. As I say, he's Canadian. Something 00:10:25.470 --> 00:10:27.210 happened with his visa and he had to leave the 00:10:27.210 --> 00:10:30.389 U .S., so he's no longer admitted within our 00:10:30.389 --> 00:10:36.320 borders. Dangerous type that he is. The answers 00:10:36.320 --> 00:10:40.179 that the people gave at that table, John Michael 00:10:40.179 --> 00:10:42.200 Greer gave the standard religion of progress 00:10:42.200 --> 00:10:46.720 answer, which, while worth knowing, wasn't really 00:10:46.720 --> 00:10:49.509 specific to the question. So I kind of tuned 00:10:49.509 --> 00:10:53.169 that out. Jim Kunstler's response also seemed 00:10:53.169 --> 00:10:55.350 pretty familiar and boilerplate to me. But what 00:10:55.350 --> 00:10:57.730 I wasn't expecting was Chris Martens' response. 00:10:58.029 --> 00:11:02.529 And basically, he said in a rather sort of derogatory 00:11:02.529 --> 00:11:05.669 way that the person asking the question didn't 00:11:05.669 --> 00:11:08.669 understand the hard resource constraint imposed 00:11:08.669 --> 00:11:12.190 by lithium supplies. And lithium, as far as I 00:11:12.190 --> 00:11:14.690 know, is not a particularly rare. rare earth. 00:11:14.850 --> 00:11:17.389 You know, it's not, as you've pointed out, neodymium 00:11:17.389 --> 00:11:19.730 or some of the other more exotic things that 00:11:19.730 --> 00:11:21.710 come from just a few places in the world. You 00:11:21.710 --> 00:11:23.529 know, some of these places are conflict ridden 00:11:23.529 --> 00:11:27.529 and China controls the supply of certain rare 00:11:27.529 --> 00:11:29.429 earth minerals, but lithium is definitely not 00:11:29.429 --> 00:11:33.129 one of them. So his answer is the one that is 00:11:33.129 --> 00:11:37.850 stuck in my mind as being both seemingly just, 00:11:37.929 --> 00:11:42.429 you know, simply wrong, but also needlessly combative, 00:11:42.450 --> 00:11:45.019 you know, in the way that He criticized people 00:11:45.019 --> 00:11:47.299 who like electric cars for not even being able 00:11:47.299 --> 00:11:49.399 to take a crayon to a napkin and do simple math. 00:11:49.639 --> 00:11:51.860 I thought, you know, whenever I hear statements 00:11:51.860 --> 00:11:56.059 like that, my spider sense tingles. That alerts 00:11:56.059 --> 00:11:58.799 me to a weak argument if somebody is pouring 00:11:58.799 --> 00:12:02.259 on an extra helping of derision to go with their 00:12:02.259 --> 00:12:05.519 answer. So I sent that video to you, and you 00:12:05.519 --> 00:12:08.700 responded that you were fairly in agreement with 00:12:08.700 --> 00:12:11.100 all of the responses given. I'd like to ask you 00:12:11.100 --> 00:12:14.919 to expand on that. Okay, I mean, I generally 00:12:14.919 --> 00:12:18.480 agree with John Michael Greer, and for the most 00:12:18.480 --> 00:12:25.200 part, James Howard Kunstler's arguments. James 00:12:25.200 --> 00:12:27.419 Howard Kunstler, I mean, some of his stuff about 00:12:27.419 --> 00:12:31.419 suburban beauty and suburban sprawl, I don't 00:12:31.419 --> 00:12:37.460 quite buy. I think I'm more into functional than, 00:12:37.460 --> 00:12:41.019 you know, my house is kind of a rectangle. but 00:12:41.019 --> 00:12:42.980 it functions and it's fairly energy efficient. 00:12:43.500 --> 00:12:47.360 You know, I'm semi -rural suburban, but I think 00:12:47.360 --> 00:12:50.240 that's probably a somewhat livable arrangement, 00:12:50.580 --> 00:12:55.580 at least for the quite near future. And I think 00:12:55.580 --> 00:12:57.419 there is something to the religion of progress 00:12:57.419 --> 00:13:03.000 story too. Now, Chris Martinson, I mean, he does 00:13:03.000 --> 00:13:06.899 look at these things very thoroughly. And let's... 00:13:07.289 --> 00:13:09.889 To be clear, when we talk about a rare earth 00:13:09.889 --> 00:13:12.750 element, it is actually something, I don't know 00:13:12.750 --> 00:13:15.049 if you remember your high school chemistry. I 00:13:15.049 --> 00:13:18.009 didn't take any high school chemistry. I was 00:13:18.009 --> 00:13:19.990 a high school chemistry teacher at one point. 00:13:20.250 --> 00:13:23.490 And if you look at a typical periodic table, 00:13:23.669 --> 00:13:26.830 there's all these squares with the different 00:13:26.830 --> 00:13:29.289 elements represented. Down the bottom, there 00:13:29.289 --> 00:13:32.990 is a bunch of elements that way back when I was 00:13:32.990 --> 00:13:36.379 in school, we had no clue. what they could be 00:13:36.379 --> 00:13:38.559 used for, if they had any use. Those are the 00:13:38.559 --> 00:13:40.840 rare earth elements. They're very, very heavy 00:13:40.840 --> 00:13:45.000 atomically. You know, a lot of protons, a lot 00:13:45.000 --> 00:13:47.360 of neutrons in them, a lot of electrons, you 00:13:47.360 --> 00:13:50.100 know, in the hundreds. Those are called, they 00:13:50.100 --> 00:13:52.419 just call them the rare earths. That's the name 00:13:52.419 --> 00:13:55.100 they're given. They're not super, super rare. 00:13:55.279 --> 00:13:58.779 They have to be mined. Mining, of course, is 00:13:58.779 --> 00:14:01.779 energy intensive and actually ends up, you know, 00:14:01.779 --> 00:14:03.919 the fuel that's used, of course, in mining is 00:14:03.919 --> 00:14:10.580 diesel. So, you know, when you analyze any technology, 00:14:10.820 --> 00:14:16.139 it seems you always get back to oil via diesel 00:14:16.139 --> 00:14:20.779 fuel. But, yeah, rare earths are controlled mostly 00:14:20.779 --> 00:14:24.600 in China and so forth right now. There's been 00:14:24.600 --> 00:14:27.080 a few attempts to get mines going outside of 00:14:27.080 --> 00:14:29.620 China, but every time that happens, what happens 00:14:29.620 --> 00:14:33.019 is you get a demand drop, a little fluctuation 00:14:33.019 --> 00:14:35.700 in economics, and the mine goes out of business, 00:14:35.919 --> 00:14:41.200 as long as China can provide supply. Lithium 00:14:41.200 --> 00:14:45.500 has nothing to do with rare earth elements. It's 00:14:45.500 --> 00:14:48.899 semi -rare. A quick Google search told me it's 00:14:48.899 --> 00:14:52.960 the 25th most common element in the earth's crust. 00:14:53.710 --> 00:14:56.570 A couple of different ways of mining. Again, 00:14:56.769 --> 00:15:02.610 mining is an energy -intensive, expensive business. 00:15:02.750 --> 00:15:06.850 It usually takes a while to get going, so it's 00:15:06.850 --> 00:15:10.470 difficult to ramp up supplies. So Chris Martinson 00:15:10.470 --> 00:15:13.490 is probably right, at least in the very near 00:15:13.490 --> 00:15:16.789 term, that you can't quickly increase the supplies 00:15:16.789 --> 00:15:22.379 of lithium. I'm not sure if he is right in the 00:15:22.379 --> 00:15:25.700 mid to long term. Five, ten years out, could 00:15:25.700 --> 00:15:29.120 you make an effort to increase the supplies dramatically? 00:15:29.620 --> 00:15:34.899 Maybe. And lithium isn't the only critical element 00:15:34.899 --> 00:15:38.379 in the batteries. They're known as lithium batteries, 00:15:38.580 --> 00:15:40.879 but I believe nickel is also the other element. 00:15:40.940 --> 00:15:45.399 So you're also in mining constraints there. So 00:15:45.399 --> 00:15:49.490 it is something that has to be... kept in mind. 00:15:49.690 --> 00:15:56.009 And I think Chris's point, which maybe he overstates 00:15:56.009 --> 00:16:01.730 it kind of derisively as you put it, but a lot 00:16:01.730 --> 00:16:07.389 of people think of these elements as appearing 00:16:07.389 --> 00:16:09.789 the way a lot of people think of their food is 00:16:09.789 --> 00:16:12.210 something you get from the supermarket. It's 00:16:12.210 --> 00:16:14.450 on a shelf. And they don't understand the whole 00:16:14.450 --> 00:16:16.549 process behind getting that. So when you get 00:16:16.549 --> 00:16:19.610 strawberries in January, they don't realize, 00:16:19.830 --> 00:16:22.110 okay, those were grown in South America. They 00:16:22.110 --> 00:16:24.549 were flown on a plane. They were delivered to 00:16:24.549 --> 00:16:26.389 the store. They don't understand that whole process 00:16:26.389 --> 00:16:28.649 behind it. There's a lot involved in doing that. 00:16:29.669 --> 00:16:35.590 Mining, very, very intensive industry. They typically, 00:16:35.889 --> 00:16:39.309 whatever they're mining, the element they're 00:16:39.309 --> 00:16:41.549 trying to get out, they're usually digging up 00:16:41.549 --> 00:16:45.759 tons to get. of earth to get grams of that element. 00:16:45.980 --> 00:16:49.620 So an intensive digging process, isolating that 00:16:49.620 --> 00:16:52.080 element, that's an intensive process. And then 00:16:52.080 --> 00:16:55.279 the transportation process, the refining of the 00:16:55.279 --> 00:16:59.960 raw material. So a lot goes into that and it 00:16:59.960 --> 00:17:03.200 can't be quickly scaled up or ramped up easily, 00:17:03.360 --> 00:17:07.789 even if it is available. And then with the markets 00:17:07.789 --> 00:17:10.609 the way they are, you've got a lot of fluctuation 00:17:10.609 --> 00:17:13.809 on it. So you bring a new mine on board, all 00:17:13.809 --> 00:17:16.789 of a sudden you increase the supply. If the demand 00:17:16.789 --> 00:17:22.230 doesn't match, you sometimes crash the price 00:17:22.230 --> 00:17:27.049 and cause mines to go out of business or shut 00:17:27.049 --> 00:17:32.710 in. So it's not as simple as people think that, 00:17:32.730 --> 00:17:35.009 okay, if we want this stuff, we just go get it. 00:17:35.450 --> 00:17:38.410 It's got to be planned years out, I think at 00:17:38.410 --> 00:17:40.710 least five years in advance for most types of 00:17:40.710 --> 00:17:44.650 mining that I'm aware of. So you can't just simply 00:17:44.650 --> 00:17:48.710 have half percent of the cars be electric one 00:17:48.710 --> 00:17:52.789 year and then ramp that up to 10 % easily the 00:17:52.789 --> 00:17:55.910 next year. A lot of things have to be planned 00:17:55.910 --> 00:17:58.329 for that to happen, and they all have to go well. 00:17:59.470 --> 00:18:03.549 Well, I don't know the current state of... operations 00:18:03.549 --> 00:18:06.450 there, but soon after I had posted that video 00:18:06.450 --> 00:18:08.410 with all the gentlemen that I just mentioned, 00:18:08.950 --> 00:18:12.670 Tesla Motors announced a contract that they had 00:18:12.670 --> 00:18:16.069 signed to basically source all of the lithium 00:18:16.069 --> 00:18:18.029 for their batteries from the state of Nevada, 00:18:18.210 --> 00:18:20.349 which is where their manufacturing facility is. 00:18:21.069 --> 00:18:23.170 So I don't know what the timeline was for getting 00:18:23.170 --> 00:18:26.130 that up and running, but I didn't hear, and I 00:18:26.130 --> 00:18:28.670 looked around for it, you know, any voices in 00:18:28.670 --> 00:18:30.690 the industry saying this is unrealistic. And, 00:18:30.710 --> 00:18:33.430 you know, there are people who who go over everything, 00:18:33.730 --> 00:18:36.509 like his every utterance and every tweet, it's 00:18:36.509 --> 00:18:38.569 gone over with a fine -tooth comb. And if Elon 00:18:38.569 --> 00:18:40.990 Musk says something that is obviously stupid, 00:18:41.170 --> 00:18:42.470 there's going to be a lot of people who are going 00:18:42.470 --> 00:18:44.150 to jump on that. And I just didn't see anybody 00:18:44.150 --> 00:18:47.150 jumping on the idea that there is lithium to 00:18:47.150 --> 00:18:51.789 be had in Nevada. It seems like an odd place 00:18:51.789 --> 00:18:54.769 to... you know, to zero in and say, here is the 00:18:54.769 --> 00:18:56.849 problem, you know, the constraint, the supply 00:18:56.849 --> 00:18:59.230 constraint on lithium. In the industry itself, 00:18:59.450 --> 00:19:01.190 I just, you know, I've looked for it and I haven't 00:19:01.190 --> 00:19:03.289 found that criticism anywhere. I only hear it 00:19:03.289 --> 00:19:06.829 in these sort of esoteric peak oil circles. Yeah, 00:19:06.849 --> 00:19:10.490 I had seen a little bit about the Nevada site 00:19:10.490 --> 00:19:14.829 and certainly at this level of production, I 00:19:14.829 --> 00:19:18.710 would imagine they could ramp things up. I mean, 00:19:18.710 --> 00:19:20.750 they're not producing at this point a lot of 00:19:20.750 --> 00:19:24.029 electric cars. The other thing, though, I mean, 00:19:24.029 --> 00:19:27.009 in terms of electric cars being viable for the 00:19:27.009 --> 00:19:28.890 future, you have to consider, you know, people 00:19:28.890 --> 00:19:32.670 point at Tesla. And if you really look at Tesla, 00:19:32.849 --> 00:19:35.970 what is that? It's a rich man's fifth car. You 00:19:35.970 --> 00:19:38.230 know, one of these people have, you know, five 00:19:38.230 --> 00:19:40.809 garages at their house, and that's his fifth 00:19:40.809 --> 00:19:43.930 car. It's not a practical car for people like 00:19:43.930 --> 00:19:47.690 you and me. No, but the major manufacturers, 00:19:48.009 --> 00:19:51.049 the GMs and their peers of the world are also 00:19:51.049 --> 00:19:53.589 ramping up electric car production, not at the 00:19:53.589 --> 00:19:57.329 rich man's toy level, but at the level of actual 00:19:57.329 --> 00:19:59.769 commuter devices that people will use, regular 00:19:59.769 --> 00:20:03.210 people with regular lives. In fact, Tesla's – 00:20:03.210 --> 00:20:05.329 as you say, the level of production at Tesla 00:20:05.329 --> 00:20:07.920 is so low as to really be – rather irrelevant 00:20:07.920 --> 00:20:10.759 in terms of how it impacts the automotive industry 00:20:10.759 --> 00:20:12.799 and how it impacts people's lives and how it 00:20:12.799 --> 00:20:15.160 impacts traffic patterns and energy usage and 00:20:15.160 --> 00:20:18.440 things like that. But they are creating the prototypes 00:20:18.440 --> 00:20:21.920 for the production cars of the future that the 00:20:21.920 --> 00:20:24.319 big manufacturers will be producing in significant 00:20:24.319 --> 00:20:27.200 quantities if things go the way the industry 00:20:27.200 --> 00:20:33.490 says they're going. Yeah, potentially. I still 00:20:33.490 --> 00:20:37.390 see you have other supply constraints, though, 00:20:37.490 --> 00:20:40.589 and one of them is the electric grid itself. 00:20:41.390 --> 00:20:45.190 You know, a typical home has, you know, maybe 00:20:45.190 --> 00:20:49.690 100 amp service. And, you know, usually people 00:20:49.690 --> 00:20:53.250 don't use near that much. But if you think how, 00:20:53.390 --> 00:20:57.670 you know, our scale of cars, it has gone up so 00:20:57.670 --> 00:21:00.490 much in terms of the horsepower on the car and 00:21:00.490 --> 00:21:04.660 so forth. people typically driving SUVs. I haven't 00:21:04.660 --> 00:21:07.859 blogged much on my blog, but one post I did put 00:21:07.859 --> 00:21:11.819 up was about my first car, which was a 65 VW 00:21:11.819 --> 00:21:15.740 Beetle. So that thing had 35 horsepower on it. 00:21:16.599 --> 00:21:22.000 And I was trying to convey the scale of what 00:21:22.000 --> 00:21:26.099 that was in terms of solar panels. If you go 00:21:26.099 --> 00:21:28.779 look around and you see a solar panel on somebody's 00:21:28.779 --> 00:21:32.119 roof. The typical solar panel you see is a 200 00:21:32.119 --> 00:21:37.019 -watt solar panel. A horsepower is 745 watts. 00:21:37.240 --> 00:21:40.660 So that means in full sun, four of those solar 00:21:40.660 --> 00:21:45.079 panels generate one horsepower worth of energy. 00:21:45.440 --> 00:21:49.960 Okay, so for my underpowered VW Beetle with the 00:21:49.960 --> 00:21:53.140 35 -horsepower engine, you're talking four of 00:21:53.140 --> 00:21:58.410 those panels times 35. That's a lot of solar 00:21:58.410 --> 00:22:03.549 surface area dedicated to the power that's required 00:22:03.549 --> 00:22:08.069 for a car. Now, you charge the car, if you figure, 00:22:08.210 --> 00:22:10.250 okay, eventually we're going to have all solar 00:22:10.250 --> 00:22:14.109 panels powering these electric cars, you have 00:22:14.109 --> 00:22:16.549 an awful lot of area that has to be dedicated 00:22:16.549 --> 00:22:20.990 to those cars. And our typical SUV is not 35 00:22:20.990 --> 00:22:25.500 horsepower, but it's 350 horsepower. So you multiply 00:22:25.500 --> 00:22:28.700 that amount again by 10, and you're seeing, I 00:22:28.700 --> 00:22:30.880 mean, my yard is about three -quarters of an 00:22:30.880 --> 00:22:32.480 acre. You're probably filling that with solar 00:22:32.480 --> 00:22:35.640 panels. If they get full sun for an hour and 00:22:35.640 --> 00:22:38.240 you use that to charge the battery on my electric 00:22:38.240 --> 00:22:44.680 SUV, that allows my SUV to run that engine for 00:22:44.680 --> 00:22:47.740 an hour. Of course, there's losses along the 00:22:47.740 --> 00:22:50.180 way, but you can kind of think of it, the losses 00:22:50.180 --> 00:22:52.480 are maybe in the 10 % area. So you can kind of 00:22:52.480 --> 00:22:55.670 think of it as equivalent. Feeds the other, feeds 00:22:55.670 --> 00:22:57.349 the other. But you don't get out more than you 00:22:57.349 --> 00:23:02.309 put in. So we don't have an electric grid that's 00:23:02.309 --> 00:23:04.809 set for that. And the other thing you have to 00:23:04.809 --> 00:23:09.349 think of is that each time you charge your car, 00:23:09.549 --> 00:23:12.210 you're charging it from an electric grid. Ultimately, 00:23:12.210 --> 00:23:14.910 that electric grid is probably being powered 00:23:14.910 --> 00:23:21.890 by coal. Or nuclear. Or nuclear. Okay. both of 00:23:21.890 --> 00:23:24.069 which have, there's a lot of things to object 00:23:24.069 --> 00:23:27.430 about that. And the electric grid is not that 00:23:27.430 --> 00:23:31.170 efficient. You lose about 50 % typically of the 00:23:31.170 --> 00:23:33.470 power that's generated as it travels through 00:23:33.470 --> 00:23:38.089 the grid. Just resistive losses, you know, electricity 00:23:38.089 --> 00:23:41.109 traveling over the wire, it heats up the wire 00:23:41.109 --> 00:23:45.890 over long distances. So you're actually, if it's... 00:23:46.089 --> 00:23:48.910 Being powered by coal, you're using twice the 00:23:48.910 --> 00:23:51.910 amount of coal energy that you would be of oil 00:23:51.910 --> 00:23:57.450 energy in a car. And I mentioned this other podcast 00:23:57.450 --> 00:24:03.049 I was on about being in Switzerland in 2010 and 00:24:03.049 --> 00:24:09.109 driving a natural gas -powered car. And that, 00:24:09.170 --> 00:24:11.930 you know, the car ran well. It was a combination. 00:24:12.619 --> 00:24:15.839 dual -fuel car. It had gasoline and natural gas. 00:24:16.480 --> 00:24:19.720 It started up using the gasoline because gasoline 00:24:19.720 --> 00:24:22.900 oil is the most energy -concentrated fuel you 00:24:22.900 --> 00:24:25.319 have, so that's better for starting. And then 00:24:25.319 --> 00:24:27.119 it would switch over to natural gas if you had 00:24:27.119 --> 00:24:30.740 any. And yeah, the car ran perfectly fine, and 00:24:30.740 --> 00:24:33.480 in Switzerland, they already had natural gas 00:24:33.480 --> 00:24:36.900 gas stations. And the host mentioned, he said, 00:24:36.980 --> 00:24:39.299 well, I think what we'll have is electric cars 00:24:39.299 --> 00:24:42.019 and we'll produce our electricity by natural 00:24:42.019 --> 00:24:46.220 gas. But the more indirectly you use any source 00:24:46.220 --> 00:24:48.880 of energy, the more the losses are in between. 00:24:49.160 --> 00:24:52.339 So when you're driving the car directly on natural 00:24:52.339 --> 00:24:54.380 gas, you're getting the full efficiency of that 00:24:54.380 --> 00:24:58.420 natural gas in the engine. If you create electricity 00:24:58.420 --> 00:25:00.839 using natural gas, then transfer it over the 00:25:00.839 --> 00:25:03.579 grid, you have a... a lot of losses, and then 00:25:03.579 --> 00:25:05.819 you charge it into the battery. The battery heats 00:25:05.819 --> 00:25:08.180 up as you charge it. That's some losses. It heats 00:25:08.180 --> 00:25:10.299 up as you discharge it. There's some losses there. 00:25:11.440 --> 00:25:15.420 So you actually use more energy to drive an electric 00:25:15.420 --> 00:25:18.359 car than you do using the fossil fuel directly. 00:25:19.900 --> 00:25:23.420 I think what we're discussing is a handful of 00:25:23.420 --> 00:25:26.619 specific instances of the more general point 00:25:26.619 --> 00:25:29.180 that fossil fuel energy is incredibly energy 00:25:29.180 --> 00:25:35.019 dense. So much so that it's not friendly to the 00:25:35.019 --> 00:25:37.359 human intuition, the difference in energy density 00:25:37.359 --> 00:25:40.460 between the different sources of energy we imagine 00:25:40.460 --> 00:25:43.220 we'll be using in the future. There really is 00:25:43.220 --> 00:25:47.359 nothing that packs the energy into a confined 00:25:47.359 --> 00:25:52.700 space like fossil fuels. Oh, that's definitely 00:25:52.700 --> 00:25:57.519 true. And that's, I think the scale, I mean, 00:25:57.519 --> 00:26:00.720 this is something Chris Martinson. harps on constantly 00:26:00.720 --> 00:26:05.279 and maybe he overdoes it uh to the point where 00:26:05.279 --> 00:26:08.500 you you shrug it off and ignore it but yes the 00:26:08.500 --> 00:26:12.099 scale of certain things people just don't comprehend 00:26:12.099 --> 00:26:16.599 and you know i certainly find that i'm an environmentalist 00:26:16.599 --> 00:26:20.160 and a lot of environmentalists they're they're 00:26:20.160 --> 00:26:24.609 lovely people but they don't have you know the 00:26:24.609 --> 00:26:28.549 mathematical type brain that i have where i kind 00:26:28.549 --> 00:26:31.170 of see these scale relationships more naturally 00:26:31.170 --> 00:26:35.529 it just comes easier to me and so i'll see flaws 00:26:35.529 --> 00:26:38.750 in the arguments that other people might not 00:26:38.750 --> 00:26:44.430 seem obvious to them so yes oil oil is just tremendously 00:26:44.430 --> 00:26:48.130 dense and until you you start thinking about 00:26:48.130 --> 00:26:51.220 like powering my VW Beetle in terms of solar 00:26:51.220 --> 00:26:54.400 panels and so forth, that you just can't always, 00:26:54.480 --> 00:26:57.240 you can't comprehend the scale of the difference. 00:26:57.900 --> 00:27:03.940 I think electric vehicles do make sense, but 00:27:03.940 --> 00:27:07.980 probably on a much more limited scale. I mean, 00:27:08.000 --> 00:27:10.119 we've gotten spoiled with driving, you know, 00:27:10.140 --> 00:27:15.579 overpowered SUVs around this country. You know, 00:27:15.599 --> 00:27:17.480 you look around the rest of the world, you go 00:27:17.480 --> 00:27:20.579 into Europe and you see a lot more smaller, lighter 00:27:20.579 --> 00:27:23.359 cars powered by all different kinds of fuel. 00:27:24.299 --> 00:27:29.019 I know in Switzerland, they had in 2010, we had 00:27:29.019 --> 00:27:31.720 the natural gas car. There were cars powered 00:27:31.720 --> 00:27:35.779 by propane in addition to regular gasoline and 00:27:35.779 --> 00:27:38.799 a lot of diesel. But in general, I mean, the 00:27:38.799 --> 00:27:41.980 cars are smaller, lighter, much more energy efficient. 00:27:42.079 --> 00:27:45.759 And, you know, Europeans use a lot less. energy 00:27:45.759 --> 00:27:49.940 than Americans do, with actually, I think, as 00:27:49.940 --> 00:27:52.319 good or, in the case of Switzerland, probably 00:27:52.319 --> 00:27:55.880 a better standard of living. Yeah, and the standard 00:27:55.880 --> 00:27:59.579 of living in the United States is much, there's 00:27:59.579 --> 00:28:01.779 a whole industry, I think, you know, information 00:28:01.779 --> 00:28:04.559 industry devoted to obscuring the fact, but our 00:28:04.559 --> 00:28:08.940 standard of living is definitely falling, particularly, 00:28:09.160 --> 00:28:11.880 you know, the middle class seems to be revealing 00:28:11.880 --> 00:28:15.829 itself to have been a temporary phenomenon. Yes, 00:28:15.829 --> 00:28:20.130 people people are definitely sliding down and 00:28:20.130 --> 00:28:23.529 they're going from, you know, an upper middle 00:28:23.529 --> 00:28:26.390 class sliding into middle class to lower middle 00:28:26.390 --> 00:28:31.910 class gradually. And I don't know if they're 00:28:31.910 --> 00:28:34.589 not acknowledging it. They're borrowing more 00:28:34.589 --> 00:28:36.950 money to cover the difference is certainly one 00:28:36.950 --> 00:28:41.230 thing that's happening. But we are definitely 00:28:41.230 --> 00:28:46.730 sliding. Bit by bit, person by person, you know, 00:28:46.730 --> 00:28:50.829 it's not a sudden collapse all at once, but at 00:28:50.829 --> 00:28:53.829 the fringes it just keeps trickling down and 00:28:53.829 --> 00:28:58.990 everything, higher taxes, are just nibbling at 00:28:58.990 --> 00:29:01.490 it, the standard of living, and dragging it down 00:29:01.490 --> 00:29:05.509 a little bit year by year. Do you know Kathy 00:29:05.509 --> 00:29:09.700 McMahon, the peak shrink? No, I don't. I don't 00:29:09.700 --> 00:29:11.039 know that she's really in the peak oil scene 00:29:11.039 --> 00:29:12.660 anymore, largely because there really isn't much 00:29:12.660 --> 00:29:14.599 of a peak oil scene anymore. But she used to 00:29:14.599 --> 00:29:17.180 be one of the better known names. And she was 00:29:17.180 --> 00:29:20.759 a I assume she still is a psychologist. But she 00:29:20.759 --> 00:29:24.359 started she encountered peak oil, I think, from 00:29:24.359 --> 00:29:28.279 one of her patients and people who were who had 00:29:28.279 --> 00:29:32.500 anxiety about. Civilizational fragility from 00:29:32.500 --> 00:29:34.740 a peak oil angle would often get pathologized 00:29:34.740 --> 00:29:37.000 by mental health professionals who had no idea 00:29:37.000 --> 00:29:40.059 about the realities of the energy situation. 00:29:40.559 --> 00:29:44.480 And they would put labels on people and describe 00:29:44.480 --> 00:29:47.759 their anxiety as some sort of pathology. And 00:29:47.759 --> 00:29:50.019 Kathy McMahon was the person who was the peak 00:29:50.019 --> 00:29:54.339 oil aware psychologist. So come to her and get 00:29:54.339 --> 00:29:57.680 a more knowledgeable sort of response as you 00:29:57.680 --> 00:30:01.410 articulate your concerns. And I think this is 00:30:01.410 --> 00:30:04.309 her phrase, but I associate it with her. She 00:30:04.309 --> 00:30:06.730 differentiates between a fast collapse and what 00:30:06.730 --> 00:30:08.809 she calls the sucky collapse. And the sucky collapse 00:30:08.809 --> 00:30:13.369 is sucky because it proceeds so slowly that we 00:30:13.369 --> 00:30:16.710 can ignore it and deny it. Whereas if there were 00:30:16.710 --> 00:30:20.250 to be a sudden collapse, like people were describing 00:30:20.250 --> 00:30:23.710 in the peak oil scene back in 2006, 2007, when 00:30:23.710 --> 00:30:25.650 I first encountered this material, well, that's 00:30:25.650 --> 00:30:27.710 something that would require an immediate and 00:30:27.710 --> 00:30:31.180 decisive response. And the sucky collapse that 00:30:31.180 --> 00:30:34.359 proceeds slowly so that, you know, people, individuals, 00:30:34.519 --> 00:30:36.319 as they collapse at different rates, they get 00:30:36.319 --> 00:30:38.119 blamed for their own problems. You know, they 00:30:38.119 --> 00:30:40.359 bear the responsibility for their own personal 00:30:40.359 --> 00:30:43.420 collapse. Well, that doesn't marshal the same 00:30:43.420 --> 00:30:46.720 sort of immediate and concentrated and coordinated 00:30:46.720 --> 00:30:50.759 response that a fast collapse would. Oh, yes, 00:30:50.920 --> 00:30:53.119 that that makes a lot of sense. I've never heard 00:30:53.119 --> 00:30:57.339 of her, but but it it certainly is making sense. 00:30:59.259 --> 00:31:03.299 what is happening around the country. And yes, 00:31:03.480 --> 00:31:07.680 the political attitude seems to be to blame people 00:31:07.680 --> 00:31:12.900 for the problems of the collapse that hit them. 00:31:12.980 --> 00:31:18.500 Now, and to be fair, I think people should get 00:31:18.500 --> 00:31:23.339 a fair amount of blame for some of their problems. 00:31:23.880 --> 00:31:28.160 There should be a sense of personal responsibility 00:31:29.240 --> 00:31:32.039 To an extent, but not everything is under people's 00:31:32.039 --> 00:31:34.740 control. And there are things that are out of 00:31:34.740 --> 00:31:36.599 people's control that are giving them problems, 00:31:36.740 --> 00:31:43.480 too. So, yeah, I think that's that is a very 00:31:43.480 --> 00:31:45.940 good way to put it. The sucky collapse. We were 00:31:45.940 --> 00:31:49.740 just kind of it's hitting a person here and there, 00:31:49.940 --> 00:31:52.200 you know, one in 10 or something like that. Their 00:31:52.200 --> 00:31:55.720 standard of living will suddenly drop. So the 00:31:55.720 --> 00:31:59.420 other nine. don't have it hasn't impacted them 00:31:59.420 --> 00:32:02.319 uh you know we'll have some climate disaster 00:32:02.319 --> 00:32:04.740 it will hit one part of the country that part 00:32:04.740 --> 00:32:07.559 will be devastated but hey the rest of us we 00:32:07.559 --> 00:32:11.259 don't really notice anything different so so 00:32:11.259 --> 00:32:16.799 you you it's not hitting everybody all at once 00:32:16.799 --> 00:32:20.039 and and i think that's you know it that's a uh 00:32:20.039 --> 00:32:23.160 kind of long emergency that's long descent type 00:32:23.950 --> 00:32:26.470 thing that a lot of people are talking about, 00:32:26.509 --> 00:32:29.970 the peak oil scene. You know, it's strange to 00:32:29.970 --> 00:32:32.009 even hear myself uttering the phrase the peak 00:32:32.009 --> 00:32:34.410 oil scene. It was such a thing. Like back in 00:32:34.410 --> 00:32:36.609 2011, I remember I went to the ASPO conference 00:32:36.609 --> 00:32:40.230 in Washington, D .C., and it really seemed like 00:32:40.230 --> 00:32:43.309 peak oil was about to break out into mainstream 00:32:43.309 --> 00:32:47.410 consciousness. And then I guess, you know, hydro 00:32:47.410 --> 00:32:52.690 fracturing and cheap oil and cheap gas basically 00:32:52.690 --> 00:32:56.170 just Wash that away. It's really that whole scene. 00:32:56.349 --> 00:32:58.390 I'll get the occasional email from the Post Carbon 00:32:58.390 --> 00:33:01.049 Institute, and every now and again, once in a 00:33:01.049 --> 00:33:03.890 blue moon, some indication that ASPO as an organization 00:33:03.890 --> 00:33:07.430 still exists, but really that scene failed to 00:33:07.430 --> 00:33:12.549 launch. Yes. I think we're very reactive, and 00:33:12.549 --> 00:33:16.210 the thing that hits people the most is the economics. 00:33:16.569 --> 00:33:20.289 Now, I'm a few years older than you. I'm 63. 00:33:20.529 --> 00:33:24.140 I'm a mid -baby boomer. So I remember the 70s 00:33:24.140 --> 00:33:28.019 very well. Just got my driver's license. Gasoline 00:33:28.019 --> 00:33:32.779 was, in 1973, gasoline was 39 cents a gallon. 00:33:33.859 --> 00:33:41.039 Okay. A year later, it had doubled. And there 00:33:41.039 --> 00:33:45.779 were gasoline lines and so forth. People talking, 00:33:45.900 --> 00:33:48.019 you know, waiting for an hour to get the gas 00:33:48.019 --> 00:33:51.779 tank filled up and so forth. And then... We went 00:33:51.779 --> 00:33:54.279 along, it kind of stabilized at double the price 00:33:54.279 --> 00:33:57.299 for a while, and then the same thing happened 00:33:57.299 --> 00:34:01.799 again late in the 70s. At that point, we got 00:34:01.799 --> 00:34:06.900 religion as far as resource limitations as a 00:34:06.900 --> 00:34:12.099 country. Everybody was very conscious. People 00:34:12.099 --> 00:34:15.000 who were driving Cadillacs were driving Nissans 00:34:15.000 --> 00:34:22.110 that got 40 miles per gallon. Very different 00:34:22.110 --> 00:34:26.130 attitude amongst people. OK, as soon as the 80s 00:34:26.130 --> 00:34:30.269 hit and, you know, we the North Sea oil drilling, 00:34:30.329 --> 00:34:35.530 the Alaska oil drilling. The conservation measures 00:34:35.530 --> 00:34:37.969 that have been taking people driving less resource 00:34:37.969 --> 00:34:41.090 intensive cars and, you know, maybe insulating 00:34:41.090 --> 00:34:43.889 their house a little better, turning down the 00:34:43.889 --> 00:34:46.389 thermostat, all those things worked. OK, that 00:34:46.389 --> 00:34:49.750 crashed the oil price. And the next thing you 00:34:49.750 --> 00:34:52.449 know, all those things were forgotten and SUVs 00:34:52.449 --> 00:34:55.989 became the common thing. All those little 40 00:34:55.989 --> 00:34:58.630 mile a gallon cars disappeared and were replaced 00:34:58.630 --> 00:35:01.829 by, you know, big trucks. I think the same thing 00:35:01.829 --> 00:35:04.369 happened again the last time. OK, the oil price 00:35:04.369 --> 00:35:07.969 went up. It panicked people. They reacted to 00:35:07.969 --> 00:35:10.570 it. All of a sudden they took these people, peak 00:35:10.570 --> 00:35:13.889 oil. people seriously. Then once the price got 00:35:13.889 --> 00:35:17.489 crashed, I think it got crashed both by demand. 00:35:18.150 --> 00:35:21.250 The markets are so dynamic that if the demand 00:35:21.250 --> 00:35:23.829 is slightly less than the supply at any given 00:35:23.829 --> 00:35:26.889 moment, the price just crashes. If the demand 00:35:26.889 --> 00:35:29.369 is slightly more than the supply at a moment, 00:35:29.489 --> 00:35:32.869 the price rockets. And everybody, of course, 00:35:32.929 --> 00:35:35.610 speculates, jumps on that and exaggerates it 00:35:35.610 --> 00:35:39.739 the way our investing economy is trying to everybody 00:35:39.739 --> 00:35:43.380 get in the middle, make a few pennies off of 00:35:43.380 --> 00:35:46.739 each swing and so forth. So we exaggerate that. 00:35:46.860 --> 00:35:50.920 And I think when oil price hit $140 per barrel, 00:35:51.219 --> 00:35:55.219 people got religion again about peak oil and 00:35:55.219 --> 00:35:58.460 resource limitations. Once that crashed and the 00:35:58.460 --> 00:36:01.039 price of gas went down, price of oil went down, 00:36:01.539 --> 00:36:04.480 it got forgotten again. The other day in our 00:36:04.480 --> 00:36:07.460 permaculture group, a woman commented about, 00:36:07.539 --> 00:36:10.280 oh, yeah, the transition town movement. But I 00:36:10.280 --> 00:36:12.239 haven't heard anything about that. And, of course, 00:36:12.280 --> 00:36:14.639 transition towns was a response to peak oil. 00:36:14.900 --> 00:36:17.719 You know, it just seemed to lose all those things, 00:36:17.760 --> 00:36:20.300 lost all the momentum at that point and immediately 00:36:20.300 --> 00:36:22.980 was discredited. And yet you have people claiming 00:36:22.980 --> 00:36:27.059 peak oil is dead. You know, so we tend to economics 00:36:27.059 --> 00:36:30.300 tends to dominate our actions in this country. 00:36:30.559 --> 00:36:32.829 And, you know, what people. When it's hurt in 00:36:32.829 --> 00:36:34.630 their pocketbook, people notice. When it's not, 00:36:34.769 --> 00:36:45.030 they stop noticing. All right. Cars really don't 00:36:45.030 --> 00:36:47.969 have anything to do with technology per se. They 00:36:47.969 --> 00:36:50.630 have a lot to do with petroleum chemistry. If 00:36:50.630 --> 00:36:52.230 you take a barrel of crude oil and you crack 00:36:52.230 --> 00:36:55.510 it, about 50 % of it ends up as gasoline, and 00:36:55.510 --> 00:36:58.289 a small fraction, maybe 10%, something like that, 00:36:58.389 --> 00:37:02.719 ends up as asphalt. So you have to figure out 00:37:02.719 --> 00:37:05.820 how to sell the gasoline and the asphalt. And 00:37:05.820 --> 00:37:08.360 if you don't manage to do that, then the really 00:37:08.360 --> 00:37:10.900 valuable parts of the oil barrel, which is jet 00:37:10.900 --> 00:37:18.280 fuel, kerosene, diesel, the useful stuff, suddenly 00:37:18.280 --> 00:37:21.639 the price goes up and the entire economic model 00:37:21.639 --> 00:37:25.880 stops making any sort of sense at all. So cars 00:37:25.880 --> 00:37:27.980 are not really about transportation. They're 00:37:27.980 --> 00:37:30.610 about forcing people to buy gasoline. Electric 00:37:30.610 --> 00:37:34.969 cars cut into that, and if electric cars become 00:37:34.969 --> 00:37:37.510 popular enough, they will destroy enough of the 00:37:37.510 --> 00:37:40.130 petroleum infrastructure that runs on diesel 00:37:40.130 --> 00:37:43.630 and jet fuel that that part of the economy will 00:37:43.630 --> 00:37:46.369 fail. And then the electric cars will not be 00:37:46.369 --> 00:37:49.389 delivered because it requires diesel. And roads 00:37:49.389 --> 00:37:52.010 won't get paved because that requires road tar. 00:37:52.269 --> 00:37:56.329 And then what you'll have is solar cars driving 00:37:56.329 --> 00:37:59.510 on dirt roads. Now, is that a viable future? 00:37:59.630 --> 00:38:01.590 I don't think so. Those things are not really 00:38:01.590 --> 00:38:05.449 all -terrain. I'm yet to see an all -terrain 00:38:05.449 --> 00:38:09.610 vehicle that is solar. So what fraction of the 00:38:09.610 --> 00:38:12.409 barrel of oil goes to make regular gasoline? 00:38:12.849 --> 00:38:22.550 About 50%. 50%. Yeah. I'd like to go back to 00:38:22.550 --> 00:38:24.050 that video that I've mentioned a couple times 00:38:24.050 --> 00:38:27.139 now. And talk about Dmitry Orlov's response, 00:38:27.360 --> 00:38:30.019 because of the various responses I got to that 00:38:30.019 --> 00:38:32.139 question, for me, his was the most interesting. 00:38:32.719 --> 00:38:36.380 His point was basically that when you take crude 00:38:36.380 --> 00:38:38.460 oil and you refine it, you get different products. 00:38:38.659 --> 00:38:41.699 So, you know, you get kerosene, you get jet fuel, 00:38:41.860 --> 00:38:44.460 you get bunker fuel, you get diesel, as you've 00:38:44.460 --> 00:38:46.039 mentioned, which is so necessary for so much 00:38:46.039 --> 00:38:49.139 of our industrial processes and mining and manufacturing 00:38:49.139 --> 00:38:51.900 and things like that. But then the largest fraction 00:38:51.900 --> 00:38:54.460 of that is gasoline. And gasoline isn't really... 00:38:54.960 --> 00:38:58.519 good for much other than, you know, moving cars 00:38:58.519 --> 00:39:01.940 around. And for the economics of a fossil fuel 00:39:01.940 --> 00:39:05.480 powered system to work, you know, your job and 00:39:05.480 --> 00:39:07.239 my job and the job of everybody listening to 00:39:07.239 --> 00:39:09.320 this is really just to burn gasoline. You know, 00:39:09.320 --> 00:39:11.239 just to make it work economically, because we 00:39:11.239 --> 00:39:13.360 absolutely need that jet fuel and that bunker 00:39:13.360 --> 00:39:16.079 fuel and that kerosene and most especially that 00:39:16.079 --> 00:39:18.480 diesel fuel. We don't really need the gasoline 00:39:18.480 --> 00:39:21.579 so much, but unless we have a public, you know, 00:39:21.579 --> 00:39:24.400 constantly in need of the gasoline, the economics 00:39:24.400 --> 00:39:27.460 of fossil fuel sort of fall apart. Yeah, I find 00:39:27.460 --> 00:39:30.199 that that interesting. I mean, what would happen 00:39:30.199 --> 00:39:33.480 in that case is power plants would end up using 00:39:33.480 --> 00:39:37.539 gasoline, I would think. Is gasoline a viable 00:39:37.539 --> 00:39:40.820 fuel for generating electricity? I mean, are 00:39:40.820 --> 00:39:43.199 there plants in existence that could, say, switch 00:39:43.199 --> 00:39:48.400 over from natural gas to gasoline? I would think 00:39:48.400 --> 00:39:51.820 that could be done. Certainly, as I said, I drove 00:39:51.820 --> 00:39:54.099 a car that you switch back and forth between 00:39:54.099 --> 00:39:56.860 natural gas and gasoline just as easily. It's 00:39:56.860 --> 00:40:01.539 basically an engine. I would imagine that you 00:40:01.539 --> 00:40:06.769 could make convertible multi -fuel. engines that 00:40:06.769 --> 00:40:11.409 could power a generator. So we've switched from 00:40:11.409 --> 00:40:14.610 coal to more natural gas and power plant generations 00:40:14.610 --> 00:40:17.949 when the price of natural gas went down. And 00:40:17.949 --> 00:40:21.630 we'll switch back and forth. It takes some time. 00:40:21.969 --> 00:40:24.550 But new generation is going to use whatever the 00:40:24.550 --> 00:40:28.070 cheapest fuel is available. I just don't see 00:40:28.070 --> 00:40:30.929 that happening. I see us continuing to use gasoline 00:40:30.929 --> 00:40:34.750 as long as it is available. I don't see the... 00:40:35.309 --> 00:40:39.030 I don't see the long -term environmental advantages 00:40:39.030 --> 00:40:44.050 of electric cars anyway. I think you end up using 00:40:44.050 --> 00:40:48.349 just as much fuel as you do with gasoline. It 00:40:48.349 --> 00:40:51.190 may just be a different mix that you get to select 00:40:51.190 --> 00:40:54.690 from, but power has to be generated from something. 00:40:55.530 --> 00:40:59.829 And the electric car, it doesn't generate its 00:40:59.829 --> 00:41:02.780 own power. So, ultimately, it's going to be some 00:41:02.780 --> 00:41:05.199 fossil fuel base and, you know, it might be gasoline 00:41:05.199 --> 00:41:08.579 used in a different manner. Yeah, as a topic, 00:41:08.719 --> 00:41:10.820 electric cars by themselves are not all that 00:41:10.820 --> 00:41:14.739 interesting to me. Self -navigating cars or, 00:41:14.840 --> 00:41:16.840 you know, hybrid systems where sometimes the 00:41:16.840 --> 00:41:20.219 human is in control and sometimes the AI is behind, 00:41:20.360 --> 00:41:22.599 you know, is the power behind the wheel. That, 00:41:22.780 --> 00:41:25.260 to me, is more interesting. Largely, you know, 00:41:25.260 --> 00:41:27.849 for the safety issues. We just sort of shrug 00:41:27.849 --> 00:41:31.150 our shoulders and write off 30 ,000 deaths in 00:41:31.150 --> 00:41:33.010 auto accidents every year. It's just the price 00:41:33.010 --> 00:41:36.789 of doing business. So that's an area that is 00:41:36.789 --> 00:41:39.550 much more interesting to me, is the whole self 00:41:39.550 --> 00:41:43.349 -driving car topic. I mean, it doesn't do anything, 00:41:43.489 --> 00:41:45.309 obviously, for the environment. If you're sitting 00:41:45.309 --> 00:41:48.269 in a car and moving it around, you're using just 00:41:48.269 --> 00:41:51.090 as much energy. The self -driving aspect would 00:41:51.090 --> 00:41:54.349 add very little weight, and so it would make 00:41:54.349 --> 00:41:58.369 very, very little difference. It certainly is 00:41:58.369 --> 00:42:01.889 doable. Now, as a software engineer and somebody 00:42:01.889 --> 00:42:06.429 who deals with software problems, self -driving 00:42:06.429 --> 00:42:10.989 cars do make me pretty nervous. A software bug 00:42:10.989 --> 00:42:13.949 could wipe out a lot of people, and occasionally 00:42:13.949 --> 00:42:17.510 you hear reports of that with any of these problems 00:42:17.510 --> 00:42:21.889 with a Prius, which is all software behind it. 00:42:22.219 --> 00:42:24.639 problems with different electric cars. Of course, 00:42:24.679 --> 00:42:28.380 they're all software -driven underneath. We don't 00:42:28.380 --> 00:42:31.400 necessarily recognize that, but it's the type 00:42:31.400 --> 00:42:34.679 of software that I write. I write embedded computer 00:42:34.679 --> 00:42:39.000 software, and all these cars and self -driving 00:42:39.000 --> 00:42:41.639 vehicles, they would be all controlled by embedded 00:42:41.639 --> 00:42:46.340 computers, and most of even a standard gasoline 00:42:46.340 --> 00:42:49.059 -powered car. It's a lot of embedded computers 00:42:49.059 --> 00:42:52.739 within that car controlling everything. And they 00:42:52.739 --> 00:42:55.079 do a wonderful job, but as you scale it up and 00:42:55.079 --> 00:42:57.559 increase the complexity, the ability of the human 00:42:57.559 --> 00:43:04.079 mind to anticipate every possible thing that 00:43:04.079 --> 00:43:07.800 could happen is pretty tough. And that's got 00:43:07.800 --> 00:43:12.760 to be programmed into those programs. It scares 00:43:12.760 --> 00:43:16.760 me a little bit, occasionally dealing with buggy 00:43:16.760 --> 00:43:20.500 software and so forth. I think even a lot of 00:43:20.500 --> 00:43:24.360 what you see lately with some of these products 00:43:24.360 --> 00:43:27.739 like you get from Microsoft, Excel, I think the 00:43:27.739 --> 00:43:30.659 latest versions have gotten worse and worse in 00:43:30.659 --> 00:43:35.179 just subtle ways than versions from 10 years 00:43:35.179 --> 00:43:38.920 ago. More complexity gets built into them, but 00:43:38.920 --> 00:43:43.119 things act a little bit more flaky in a lot of 00:43:43.119 --> 00:43:46.679 cases. So I don't know if you've seen that too 00:43:46.679 --> 00:43:50.000 in software you use. I've definitely seen that. 00:43:50.780 --> 00:43:53.280 Well, the software I use is the same software 00:43:53.280 --> 00:43:55.519 I've been using for a very long time. But I do 00:43:55.519 --> 00:43:58.320 get irritated every time Adobe feels the need 00:43:58.320 --> 00:44:02.500 to make Photoshop much more complicated. The 00:44:02.500 --> 00:44:04.739 things that I needed to do are the exact same 00:44:04.739 --> 00:44:07.639 things I needed it to do 10 years ago. But for 00:44:07.639 --> 00:44:10.969 me, you say... cars controlled by software and 00:44:10.969 --> 00:44:14.670 microprocessors makes you nervous, but cars controlled 00:44:14.670 --> 00:44:16.849 by hominids with cell phones should make you 00:44:16.849 --> 00:44:21.670 really, really nervous. It definitely does. It's 00:44:21.670 --> 00:44:25.030 not a matter of comparing self -driving cars 00:44:25.030 --> 00:44:27.949 to cars driven by angels. It's a matter of comparing 00:44:27.949 --> 00:44:30.869 self -driving cars to cars driven by people who 00:44:30.869 --> 00:44:33.150 are under a lot of stress and professionally 00:44:33.150 --> 00:44:36.010 distracted. I remember... When I lived in New 00:44:36.010 --> 00:44:37.650 York City, you know, I drove a pickup truck, 00:44:37.710 --> 00:44:39.670 which sat up higher than most of the cars around 00:44:39.670 --> 00:44:42.929 me, and I'd be sitting in traffic, and everybody, 00:44:43.170 --> 00:44:47.469 every single driver in view had one hand on the 00:44:47.469 --> 00:44:49.630 wheel and the other hand on a phone, and their 00:44:49.630 --> 00:44:52.710 eyes were on their phone. You know, it seems 00:44:52.710 --> 00:44:57.440 like, to me, the fact that... auto fatalities 00:44:57.440 --> 00:44:59.739 haven't jumped by like a factor of five in the 00:44:59.739 --> 00:45:03.159 past decade is really a testament to how sophisticated 00:45:03.159 --> 00:45:05.900 our brains are and how much we can multitask. 00:45:05.900 --> 00:45:08.579 But the science of multitasking is very clear. 00:45:08.639 --> 00:45:10.559 We don't do it nearly as well as we think we 00:45:10.559 --> 00:45:13.659 do. And I think that the current situation with 00:45:13.659 --> 00:45:17.119 drivers so distracted and so invested in the 00:45:17.119 --> 00:45:23.050 abstractions and the social. abstractions that 00:45:23.050 --> 00:45:24.929 are just in the palm of their hand that I'm amazed 00:45:24.929 --> 00:45:28.829 anybody can drive at all. Yeah, that is scary. 00:45:29.150 --> 00:45:35.809 I guess, you know, for me, I'm not one who spent 00:45:35.809 --> 00:45:38.309 a lot of time on my cell phone. So, you know, 00:45:38.309 --> 00:45:43.010 I drive, I drive. And to me, to give up control 00:45:43.010 --> 00:45:45.849 to software, to me, that's a little bit scary 00:45:45.849 --> 00:45:48.369 software that somebody else wrote, because I 00:45:48.369 --> 00:45:52.429 know the pitfalls and so forth. But Yes, I guess 00:45:52.429 --> 00:45:54.369 I'd rather have a self -driving car coming down 00:45:54.369 --> 00:45:58.130 my street than an 18 -year -old staring at their 00:45:58.130 --> 00:46:00.510 cell phone. Or a 48 -year -old. You know, I live 00:46:00.510 --> 00:46:02.389 in an apartment building which has a big parking 00:46:02.389 --> 00:46:05.559 lot. And I'm walking across this parking lot 00:46:05.559 --> 00:46:07.300 all the time because the other building is where 00:46:07.300 --> 00:46:09.679 my gym is and it's where it's the TV station 00:46:09.679 --> 00:46:11.960 where I do some work is. So I'm always walking 00:46:11.960 --> 00:46:14.820 across this parking lot. And it is just a survival 00:46:14.820 --> 00:46:17.900 skill that I have to look at every person who's 00:46:17.900 --> 00:46:19.539 sitting behind the wheel of a car, whether it's 00:46:19.539 --> 00:46:22.360 in motion or whether it's stationary, and see 00:46:22.360 --> 00:46:25.079 where they're looking. Because so many people, 00:46:25.139 --> 00:46:26.940 they come out of this hospital, which is the 00:46:26.940 --> 00:46:30.159 other building in this complex. They get into 00:46:30.159 --> 00:46:32.820 their car and... as they're putting the key in 00:46:32.820 --> 00:46:34.539 the ignition, with the other hand, they're looking 00:46:34.539 --> 00:46:37.400 at their phone, and they frequently, I mean regularly, 00:46:37.500 --> 00:46:41.380 start the car, and they're in motion before they 00:46:41.380 --> 00:46:44.360 look up at their surroundings. And I could easily 00:46:44.360 --> 00:46:46.760 be, if I'm not watching to see where they're 00:46:46.760 --> 00:46:49.440 going, I could get run over rather easily. And 00:46:49.440 --> 00:46:52.480 it's always to do with the phone. And this brings 00:46:52.480 --> 00:46:55.539 me around to a lament that I have about... the 00:46:55.539 --> 00:46:57.360 direction of the Sea Realm Podcast in general. 00:46:57.440 --> 00:46:58.920 You know, when it started, I was not interested 00:46:58.920 --> 00:47:01.659 in peak oil. And it was interviewing, you know, 00:47:01.659 --> 00:47:04.639 early interviews with Dmitry Orlov and Jim Consler 00:47:04.639 --> 00:47:06.940 and Albert Bates that got me interested in that 00:47:06.940 --> 00:47:10.539 topic. And then the Sea Realm Podcast largely 00:47:10.539 --> 00:47:14.099 became the podcast completely devoted to energy 00:47:14.099 --> 00:47:17.539 issues and the fragility of, you know, our energy 00:47:17.539 --> 00:47:20.820 infrastructure and our way of life. And the same 00:47:20.820 --> 00:47:23.119 year that I started this podcast, the iPhone. 00:47:23.690 --> 00:47:26.989 premiered. And I think over the 13 years that 00:47:26.989 --> 00:47:30.309 I've been podcasting, the iPhone, social media, 00:47:30.469 --> 00:47:33.030 mobile computing in general has had a much larger 00:47:33.030 --> 00:47:38.010 impact on daily life and on politics and on the 00:47:38.010 --> 00:47:40.389 experience that people have, you know, of their 00:47:40.389 --> 00:47:44.320 world than has energy constraints. You know, 00:47:44.360 --> 00:47:46.619 energy constraints, you can certainly say, are 00:47:46.619 --> 00:47:49.860 definitely important from a big picture perspective. 00:47:50.099 --> 00:47:52.320 And, you know, long term, they are a bigger issue 00:47:52.320 --> 00:47:54.800 probably than social media and mobile computing. 00:47:54.980 --> 00:47:57.280 But over the last decade and change, I think 00:47:57.280 --> 00:48:00.260 social media and mobile computing have had a 00:48:00.260 --> 00:48:02.059 much bigger impact. And I wish that I had paid 00:48:02.059 --> 00:48:04.619 more attention to that back at the start of this 00:48:04.619 --> 00:48:10.800 podcast. Yeah. Definitely. There are times I 00:48:10.800 --> 00:48:13.119 feel a little bit guilty about the work I do 00:48:13.119 --> 00:48:16.500 because I do have a piece in supporting it. And 00:48:16.500 --> 00:48:21.039 the impact of cell phones and that technology, 00:48:21.260 --> 00:48:25.320 I don't know that it's done our society a lot 00:48:25.320 --> 00:48:30.539 of good. I see a lot of negative aspects, what 00:48:30.539 --> 00:48:32.739 you're talking about with people driving and 00:48:32.739 --> 00:48:36.059 deaths from cell phones and just constantly being 00:48:36.059 --> 00:48:42.039 distracted by them. You know, my kids are still 00:48:42.039 --> 00:48:45.400 fairly young. I'm an older dad, so they're 18 00:48:45.400 --> 00:48:48.739 and 22. You know, you see the impact on their 00:48:48.739 --> 00:48:51.380 lives where they're not used to talking to people 00:48:51.380 --> 00:48:54.699 face to face. They don't know how to do that. 00:48:54.780 --> 00:48:57.199 It's like they'd rather sit next to somebody 00:48:57.199 --> 00:49:01.639 and send them a text, which, you know, they're 00:49:01.639 --> 00:49:06.769 more comfortable doing that. Nearly as into it 00:49:06.769 --> 00:49:11.010 as a lot of people. But, you know, just those 00:49:11.010 --> 00:49:15.869 basic communication skills. And, you know, you 00:49:15.869 --> 00:49:19.489 see so many people walking around, you know, 00:49:19.510 --> 00:49:22.710 they're hunched over their phone, staring at 00:49:22.710 --> 00:49:25.789 it. And, you know, they'd walk into a wall before 00:49:25.789 --> 00:49:27.670 they'd pull away from their phone. They're not 00:49:27.670 --> 00:49:29.969 seeing the world around them. To be honest, a 00:49:29.969 --> 00:49:33.099 lot of it. Is it adding value to people's lives? 00:49:33.300 --> 00:49:36.960 I don't think so. You know, if you think of technology 00:49:36.960 --> 00:49:40.480 leaps forward, you know, originally like the 00:49:40.480 --> 00:49:44.000 TV, which amazes me that people came up with 00:49:44.000 --> 00:49:46.380 this back when they did, were able to broadcast 00:49:46.380 --> 00:49:49.900 video signals over airwaves and you could watch 00:49:49.900 --> 00:49:53.079 from a distance or initial early radio. To me, 00:49:53.099 --> 00:49:56.920 I am so impressed with the people who invented 00:49:56.920 --> 00:50:00.539 those things. Being able to stream stuff over 00:50:00.539 --> 00:50:03.619 your cell phone or watch your TV show over your 00:50:03.619 --> 00:50:09.000 cell phone is not such a big advance when you 00:50:09.000 --> 00:50:11.500 compare it to that. And certainly when you compare 00:50:11.500 --> 00:50:14.400 a lot of this stuff to indoor plumbing in terms 00:50:14.400 --> 00:50:17.920 of quality of life, they're not that big of an 00:50:17.920 --> 00:50:22.079 advance. So, yeah, I don't know if it's not had 00:50:22.079 --> 00:50:25.380 a positive thing and certain politically how 00:50:25.380 --> 00:50:29.480 it's gotten people, they're able to tune out 00:50:29.480 --> 00:50:33.579 voices and just tune into things that reinforce 00:50:33.579 --> 00:50:38.380 what they think. I think it's created a divide 00:50:38.380 --> 00:50:41.780 between people where they can't really talk to 00:50:41.780 --> 00:50:45.920 anybody with any different ideas. When you are 00:50:45.920 --> 00:50:49.480 online, you feel a disconnect from the person 00:50:49.480 --> 00:50:51.500 you're talking to. It's not the same as talking 00:50:51.500 --> 00:50:53.880 to somebody face -to -face. And I think people 00:50:53.880 --> 00:50:59.099 just treat people much more rude. They wouldn't 00:50:59.099 --> 00:51:01.079 talk to a person face -to -face the way they 00:51:01.079 --> 00:51:05.420 would post comments online and so forth. So I 00:51:05.420 --> 00:51:10.559 think it's become polarizing very much socially 00:51:10.559 --> 00:51:13.519 and politically. So I think there's been a lot 00:51:13.519 --> 00:51:17.460 of downsides to the to this whole Internet revolution. 00:51:18.000 --> 00:51:20.500 Yeah, I don't know about you. I had this thought 00:51:20.500 --> 00:51:22.280 the other day. I was thinking about, you know, 00:51:22.280 --> 00:51:25.960 my youth and, you know, you know, if I there 00:51:25.960 --> 00:51:28.179 were things that I could bring back to my youth 00:51:28.179 --> 00:51:31.559 that my kids have now, what would I do? And, 00:51:31.579 --> 00:51:34.900 you know, I watch my son. My son ran track in 00:51:34.900 --> 00:51:37.559 the spring and they had a girls track team and 00:51:37.559 --> 00:51:40.829 a boys track team. And when it came time for 00:51:40.829 --> 00:51:43.309 the prom, there were a lot of couples of boys 00:51:43.309 --> 00:51:46.150 and girls who ran track together. I said, you 00:51:46.150 --> 00:51:48.989 know, the best thing I could bring back from 00:51:48.989 --> 00:51:52.050 if I had to live my life over again would be 00:51:52.050 --> 00:51:56.010 girls track. I wish I had that when I was in 00:51:56.010 --> 00:51:57.710 high school, because back then they didn't have 00:51:57.710 --> 00:52:01.429 those girls sports. But did I feel like I missed 00:52:01.429 --> 00:52:03.530 out because I didn't have cell phones or things 00:52:03.530 --> 00:52:06.809 like that? Not really. But some of the social 00:52:06.809 --> 00:52:10.489 changes that I think have been positive, you 00:52:10.489 --> 00:52:12.630 know, my youth was early enough that had women's 00:52:12.630 --> 00:52:15.789 liberation. You know, racial problems were a 00:52:15.789 --> 00:52:18.250 lot worse. Those things have definitely progressed. 00:52:18.590 --> 00:52:23.070 But the technology, I don't know if it's made 00:52:23.070 --> 00:52:26.489 us better. Well, I am the father of two teenage 00:52:26.489 --> 00:52:29.449 boys, and my childhood was so much richer than 00:52:29.449 --> 00:52:31.750 theirs because I was out in the world, you know, 00:52:31.769 --> 00:52:34.309 the real physical world, usually on my bicycle 00:52:34.309 --> 00:52:37.909 with friends. Roaming far from home and getting 00:52:37.909 --> 00:52:41.010 into trouble and exploring and having some spectacular 00:52:41.010 --> 00:52:44.469 wipeouts on my bike and sustaining serious injury. 00:52:44.550 --> 00:52:47.530 I've been, as a kid, I went to the hospital, 00:52:47.710 --> 00:52:50.510 the emergency room, fairly regularly with injuries. 00:52:50.869 --> 00:52:57.130 And my kids never have. They are inside, on their 00:52:57.130 --> 00:53:01.840 devices. Both of my kids have cell phones, although 00:53:01.840 --> 00:53:03.599 only one of them has cell phone service, because 00:53:03.599 --> 00:53:06.079 a smartphone is just a handy little pocket computer, 00:53:06.159 --> 00:53:08.739 and there's Wi -Fi at school, so even without 00:53:08.739 --> 00:53:11.880 a cell phone contract, it's a handy device. And 00:53:11.880 --> 00:53:15.230 I know that the... The children of the rich and 00:53:15.230 --> 00:53:17.769 powerful, even the Silicon Valley folks who made 00:53:17.769 --> 00:53:20.070 their fortunes from this technology, they send 00:53:20.070 --> 00:53:22.050 their kids to private schools with no screens, 00:53:22.329 --> 00:53:24.829 with no information technology, learning from 00:53:24.829 --> 00:53:28.769 books and from lectures and things. And my kids, 00:53:28.809 --> 00:53:33.630 who are sort of the very low end of middle class, 00:53:33.670 --> 00:53:36.210 if that, really they're sort of the children 00:53:36.210 --> 00:53:38.789 of former middle class people who are now struggling 00:53:38.789 --> 00:53:43.219 working class people. They have their phones 00:53:43.219 --> 00:53:46.039 with them all the time at school, and the phones 00:53:46.039 --> 00:53:48.920 and laptops and tablets are all allowed in the 00:53:48.920 --> 00:53:50.860 public school. And that just seems strange to 00:53:50.860 --> 00:53:52.900 me. I mean, if you could bring these things back 00:53:52.900 --> 00:53:54.739 to when I was in school, you know, in high school 00:53:54.739 --> 00:53:56.880 in the 80s, they certainly, you couldn't have 00:53:56.880 --> 00:53:59.059 them, you know, in your hand in class. You would 00:53:59.059 --> 00:54:01.019 have to, you know, if they were allowed at all, 00:54:01.039 --> 00:54:04.230 they'd have to be in your locker. And it seems 00:54:04.230 --> 00:54:06.070 like the schools, you know, the public schools 00:54:06.070 --> 00:54:08.250 for the massive kids have just given up on that. 00:54:08.369 --> 00:54:10.590 Like the screens are everywhere. The processors 00:54:10.590 --> 00:54:12.969 are everywhere. But for the children of the elite, 00:54:13.130 --> 00:54:16.210 you know, it seems the elite recognize how harmful 00:54:16.210 --> 00:54:18.449 these technologies are, and they make sure that 00:54:18.449 --> 00:54:20.849 their kids have a learning environment which 00:54:20.849 --> 00:54:23.309 is free of these things. Yeah, that's definitely 00:54:23.309 --> 00:54:27.030 true. You see all these posts about, you know, 00:54:27.030 --> 00:54:30.969 the people who are the real high -level enablers 00:54:30.969 --> 00:54:33.670 of all this technology. don't want their kids 00:54:33.670 --> 00:54:37.469 constantly exposed to it uh and i think they 00:54:37.469 --> 00:54:40.090 have very very valid reasons i just think the 00:54:40.090 --> 00:54:42.369 schools feel they're over they're overwhelmed 00:54:42.369 --> 00:54:45.030 and you know face it most of the teachers are 00:54:45.030 --> 00:54:47.809 probably uh on their cell phones all the time 00:54:47.809 --> 00:54:50.329 anyway so you know they don't they don't necessarily 00:54:50.329 --> 00:54:54.070 recognize it so uh yeah i think they've just 00:54:54.070 --> 00:54:56.550 kind of thrown up the flag and and given up any 00:54:56.550 --> 00:54:59.170 hope of that but yeah there's a definitely a 00:54:59.170 --> 00:55:03.230 benefit to not having uh your cell phone on you 00:55:03.230 --> 00:55:06.909 all the time. Yes, indeed. So, yeah, I think 00:55:06.909 --> 00:55:09.690 there's no contest. My life, my childhood was 00:55:09.690 --> 00:55:11.989 so much better than that of my kids. And it is 00:55:11.989 --> 00:55:14.070 the technology that makes the difference. And 00:55:14.070 --> 00:55:16.849 the social expectations that go along with it, 00:55:16.889 --> 00:55:19.730 I think we're much more fearful now than we were 00:55:19.730 --> 00:55:22.250 when I was a kid, like, you know, in the 70s 00:55:22.250 --> 00:55:25.369 and the 80s. I would be gone. You know, I would 00:55:25.369 --> 00:55:28.489 be out of my mother's sight all day, all day. 00:55:28.550 --> 00:55:30.110 She wouldn't know where I was. She couldn't call 00:55:30.110 --> 00:55:32.769 me. I wasn't near a phone. You know, I was off 00:55:32.769 --> 00:55:35.409 on my bike with friends. And then as long as 00:55:35.409 --> 00:55:37.610 I made it back, you know, at dinnertime, it was 00:55:37.610 --> 00:55:41.389 all good. And these days, you know, if your kids 00:55:41.389 --> 00:55:44.969 are not immediately within sight, then you start 00:55:44.969 --> 00:55:48.170 to wonder, you know, what dangers are they exposed 00:55:48.170 --> 00:55:50.289 to? What do I need to be protecting them from? 00:55:50.369 --> 00:55:53.329 And that has seeped into the expectations of 00:55:53.329 --> 00:55:56.289 our culture in general so that parents who, you 00:55:56.289 --> 00:55:58.489 know, raise their kids the way I was raised are 00:55:58.489 --> 00:56:04.340 considered negligent. Yes, yes. You hear the 00:56:04.340 --> 00:56:06.659 stories of the police coming because the kid's 00:56:06.659 --> 00:56:10.119 playing on his front lawn by himself, and they 00:56:10.119 --> 00:56:13.480 don't see a parent in sight and so forth. The 00:56:13.480 --> 00:56:19.000 pendulum swung way too far that way. I had a 00:56:19.000 --> 00:56:23.559 story. My dad one time, and I realized afterwards, 00:56:23.800 --> 00:56:26.599 after a while, it was the best thing anybody 00:56:26.599 --> 00:56:30.199 ever did for me. I was got in a rut of sitting 00:56:30.199 --> 00:56:32.320 and watching TV every day after I'd come home 00:56:32.320 --> 00:56:34.579 from school. And he got home from school about 00:56:34.579 --> 00:56:36.739 the same time I did. One day he came over and 00:56:36.739 --> 00:56:39.800 said, Bob, after the show, you're getting outside. 00:56:40.380 --> 00:56:42.420 And I said, oh, no, I want to watch whatever 00:56:42.420 --> 00:56:44.559 the next show was. I forget what it was. But 00:56:44.559 --> 00:56:47.099 I mentioned a stream of shows that were coming 00:56:47.099 --> 00:56:49.639 up. He said, no, Bob, you're going outside. And 00:56:49.639 --> 00:56:52.059 he didn't say any more. When that show ended, 00:56:52.239 --> 00:56:54.820 he came in. I hadn't shut the TV off. He went 00:56:54.820 --> 00:56:57.360 over, shut the TV off. I protested. came over, 00:56:57.440 --> 00:57:00.239 picked me up, carried me out the door, put me 00:57:00.239 --> 00:57:02.940 outside, locked the door, and said, you're going 00:57:02.940 --> 00:57:07.139 to spend time outside. Fortunately, my parents 00:57:07.139 --> 00:57:09.539 were very good. They both stuck with what they 00:57:09.539 --> 00:57:12.900 said, and they backed each other up. So I knew 00:57:12.900 --> 00:57:15.280 I was never going to win that battle and watch 00:57:15.280 --> 00:57:18.539 TV. So I made the best of it outside and ended 00:57:18.539 --> 00:57:21.239 up having a good time and kind of got out of 00:57:21.239 --> 00:57:23.579 my TV rut. But I realized that was one of the 00:57:23.579 --> 00:57:26.090 best things he'd ever did for me. even though 00:57:26.090 --> 00:57:30.630 I was screaming mad at the time. You know, there 00:57:30.630 --> 00:57:35.050 are advantages to the way we grew up, being able 00:57:35.050 --> 00:57:36.949 to, you know, golf on your bicycle, running around 00:57:36.949 --> 00:57:39.469 and so forth. I mean, people were healthier. 00:57:41.369 --> 00:57:45.269 Definitely, you know, trimmer. You know, there's 00:57:45.269 --> 00:57:48.650 something to be said for keeping an eye on kids 00:57:48.650 --> 00:57:52.190 and so forth, but the pendulum swung way too 00:57:52.190 --> 00:57:57.179 far. You can't cocoon everybody and keep them 00:57:57.179 --> 00:57:59.420 safe in front of the electronics things. It's 00:57:59.420 --> 00:58:01.380 just different dangers that they're being exposed 00:58:01.380 --> 00:58:04.659 to now through the electronics. You know, everything 00:58:04.659 --> 00:58:06.860 we've said over the past 10, 15 minutes basically 00:58:06.860 --> 00:58:10.820 has gone back to my point of the technologies 00:58:10.820 --> 00:58:14.659 that have created all of these problems and also 00:58:14.659 --> 00:58:16.920 which allow us to do things we couldn't have 00:58:16.920 --> 00:58:19.880 done before. They really have had a much bigger 00:58:19.880 --> 00:58:23.340 impact on... the character of life in the early 00:58:23.340 --> 00:58:26.739 21st century then has constraints, supply constraints 00:58:26.739 --> 00:58:30.239 of fossil fuels. And so, you know, this is why 00:58:30.239 --> 00:58:31.920 I say I would much rather that, you know, if 00:58:31.920 --> 00:58:33.500 I could go back in time and do it over again, 00:58:33.579 --> 00:58:35.840 I would focus more on information technology 00:58:35.840 --> 00:58:38.659 and particularly social media and mobile computing. 00:58:39.059 --> 00:58:44.000 You know, people our age, 2011 doesn't seem like 00:58:44.000 --> 00:58:47.699 very long ago, but I remember Back in 2011, you 00:58:47.699 --> 00:58:49.239 know, that was the start of the Arab Spring and 00:58:49.239 --> 00:58:51.920 then later that year, Occupy Wall Street. And 00:58:51.920 --> 00:58:54.619 in the Arab Spring, the tech executives were 00:58:54.619 --> 00:58:57.800 all crowing, saying, you know, this is what giving 00:58:57.800 --> 00:59:00.019 everybody access to the Internet brings. It is 00:59:00.019 --> 00:59:02.800 it's democracy. You know, democracy just springs 00:59:02.800 --> 00:59:05.719 up unbidden. when you give people these tools. 00:59:05.940 --> 00:59:08.820 And that's not how it's played out. You know, 00:59:08.820 --> 00:59:11.340 and I think those comments are, they're sort 00:59:11.340 --> 00:59:15.780 of an embarrassment now to that sector of industry 00:59:15.780 --> 00:59:18.739 and that set of people that these tools do not 00:59:18.739 --> 00:59:22.019 create democracy and that China, you know, the 00:59:22.019 --> 00:59:26.559 remaining, or I would say even rising communist 00:59:26.559 --> 00:59:28.860 superpower, communist possibly in name only, 00:59:28.960 --> 00:59:32.300 but they're certainly authoritarian. Google, 00:59:32.420 --> 00:59:35.059 with their do no evil motto, is more than happy 00:59:35.059 --> 00:59:38.380 to work with China to make sure that China can 00:59:38.380 --> 00:59:41.340 be our partner in creating the tools that we 00:59:41.340 --> 00:59:44.119 use and implementing them in an authoritarian 00:59:44.119 --> 00:59:47.400 friendly way. And I think these are all very 00:59:47.400 --> 00:59:51.139 important topics that have enormous impact on 00:59:51.139 --> 00:59:53.159 our lives. And I wish that I had been tuned into 00:59:53.159 --> 00:59:56.679 it earlier. Yeah, I don't think it's too late 00:59:56.679 --> 01:00:02.079 to talk more about that. I hear so many people 01:00:02.079 --> 01:00:04.679 talk about, you know, the Internet technology 01:00:04.679 --> 01:00:07.579 and, you know, a lot of them, you know, they're 01:00:07.579 --> 01:00:12.340 big on Bitcoin, for instance, and saying, you 01:00:12.340 --> 01:00:15.239 know, this is freeing people. We can have virtual 01:00:15.239 --> 01:00:20.000 nations and so forth. What they seem to leave 01:00:20.000 --> 01:00:23.900 out is that the Internet, basically people have 01:00:23.900 --> 01:00:26.380 two or three ways of connecting to the Internet, 01:00:26.579 --> 01:00:31.389 which can be easily controlled. So it provides 01:00:31.389 --> 01:00:35.889 a central mass point of control that governments 01:00:35.889 --> 01:00:38.869 can use, businesses can use to their advantage. 01:00:39.070 --> 01:00:43.489 But independently, most of us don't have a way 01:00:43.489 --> 01:00:46.909 to get on the Internet on our own. We're through 01:00:46.909 --> 01:00:51.489 some ISP, maybe a cable provider, telephone provider, 01:00:51.750 --> 01:00:54.630 cell phone provider. That's about it. Any of 01:00:54.630 --> 01:00:59.769 those things can filter what. Any way they want. 01:00:59.909 --> 01:01:02.389 They're businesses. There's nothing stopping 01:01:02.389 --> 01:01:05.090 them from doing that. And any of them could shut 01:01:05.090 --> 01:01:07.769 down your access, as you've recently found with 01:01:07.769 --> 01:01:11.230 Facebook. I mean, they're a central controlling 01:01:11.230 --> 01:01:17.630 power now. And, you know, it's not giving individuals 01:01:17.630 --> 01:01:21.389 necessarily more power. Yes, we can talk about 01:01:21.389 --> 01:01:24.869 things that might be somewhat subversive in small 01:01:24.869 --> 01:01:31.550 quantities. you can be controlled. Yeah, I mean, 01:01:31.570 --> 01:01:34.690 that seems to be really the primary use of the 01:01:34.690 --> 01:01:37.650 technology these days is to control perception. 01:01:38.449 --> 01:01:40.269 And, you know, that's not new, and it's certainly 01:01:40.269 --> 01:01:43.469 not unique to social media. I mean, that's largely 01:01:43.469 --> 01:01:47.690 been the role of television. And so it goes. 01:01:49.170 --> 01:01:52.230 Well, we have just passed the one hour mark on 01:01:52.230 --> 01:01:54.329 the recording, and I like to keep these files 01:01:54.329 --> 01:01:57.449 not much longer than that. So let me just... 01:01:57.630 --> 01:02:01.110 open it up to you to say what message would you 01:02:01.110 --> 01:02:05.030 like to end on or what topic? Okay. I mean, I 01:02:05.030 --> 01:02:08.929 think long -term, we still have to consider energy 01:02:08.929 --> 01:02:13.690 constraints, scaling down. I'd like to see when 01:02:13.690 --> 01:02:16.130 we talk about things like electric vehicles, 01:02:16.349 --> 01:02:19.489 that we actually talk about, okay, more practical 01:02:19.489 --> 01:02:24.929 electric vehicles, electrifying bicycles, electrified 01:02:24.929 --> 01:02:29.219 scooters. small scale cars on electric cars on 01:02:29.219 --> 01:02:33.840 the power of my old VW Beetle. If we scale down, 01:02:34.139 --> 01:02:38.099 electrification of certain things becomes much 01:02:38.099 --> 01:02:43.039 more possible. And I just think some old technologies, 01:02:43.400 --> 01:02:46.880 really, people would laugh at those technologies, 01:02:47.280 --> 01:02:49.969 but... putting more insulation in people's houses. 01:02:50.190 --> 01:02:53.550 I mean, I've done that, and it makes such a huge 01:02:53.550 --> 01:02:57.090 difference. The house is quieter inside, and 01:02:57.090 --> 01:03:03.610 my bills are a lot lower for heat. No longer 01:03:03.610 --> 01:03:06.130 need air conditioning in here in northwest Connecticut 01:03:06.130 --> 01:03:08.969 for most. Once there's a few days, I could use 01:03:08.969 --> 01:03:12.409 it, but most of the time, it keeps the house 01:03:12.409 --> 01:03:16.829 much cooler in the summer. So working things 01:03:16.829 --> 01:03:20.670 like that, I think, long term have a lot more 01:03:20.670 --> 01:03:24.789 potential than people harping on electric cars 01:03:24.789 --> 01:03:29.030 and so forth. I'd love to see people pick up 01:03:29.030 --> 01:03:31.469 those type things more. And, of course, I'm very 01:03:31.469 --> 01:03:35.070 into permaculture, learning about that, which 01:03:35.070 --> 01:03:41.340 is totally out of my normal skill set. Learning 01:03:41.340 --> 01:03:44.539 about that has a lot of benefits. Growing your 01:03:44.539 --> 01:03:47.800 own quality food and so forth long term I think 01:03:47.800 --> 01:03:52.139 is a good skill for people to develop. I'd love 01:03:52.139 --> 01:03:56.039 to see people go more in that direction. Put 01:03:56.039 --> 01:03:59.000 your cell phones down a little bit and experience 01:03:59.000 --> 01:04:04.500 the world. What's the name of your blog? I have 01:04:04.500 --> 01:04:08.920 a blog, investingwithnature .com. Pretty wimpy 01:04:08.920 --> 01:04:13.079 blog. I don't blog much. I'm more hoping in a 01:04:13.079 --> 01:04:15.519 few years when I retire that I'll blog a little 01:04:15.519 --> 01:04:19.440 more often. And even if I make an occasional 01:04:19.440 --> 01:04:21.579 blog between now and then, that it will have 01:04:21.579 --> 01:04:27.800 built up a little bit of work. Do you have any 01:04:27.800 --> 01:04:32.659 New Year's resolutions? Well, one was, and the 01:04:32.659 --> 01:04:35.440 original reason I contacted you was to support... 01:04:36.429 --> 01:04:38.630 People like yourself who are doing good work. 01:04:39.090 --> 01:04:42.570 Make sure I do that in some manner. You know, 01:04:42.570 --> 01:04:46.230 support James Howard Kunstler, John Michael Greer, 01:04:46.309 --> 01:04:48.670 some of these people who I've listened to and 01:04:48.670 --> 01:04:53.510 followed their work, read their books. And, you 01:04:53.510 --> 01:04:57.510 know, I think they are saying some useful things 01:04:57.510 --> 01:04:59.789 and they're certainly much better writers than 01:04:59.789 --> 01:05:04.309 I am. So I enjoy their reading and just, you 01:05:04.309 --> 01:05:06.619 know, support these. these people. That's been 01:05:06.619 --> 01:05:09.320 my big New Year's resolution. All right. That's 01:05:09.320 --> 01:05:11.659 a good one. All right. Bob, it has been a lot 01:05:11.659 --> 01:05:14.820 of fun talking to you. Oh, a lot of fun here, 01:05:14.920 --> 01:05:17.280 KMO. Thank you very much. Thank you. Take care. 01:05:17.760 --> 01:05:24.159 Take care. Bye. That was Bob Brown. Check out 01:05:24.159 --> 01:05:26.360 his blog. You can burn through it pretty quickly. 01:05:26.400 --> 01:05:28.400 He's not kidding when he says he doesn't blog 01:05:28.400 --> 01:05:33.880 often. I say this with no disrespect meant to 01:05:33.880 --> 01:05:36.239 Chris Martinson, but I was riding with somebody 01:05:36.239 --> 01:05:39.039 in a car a few months back, and they had on a 01:05:39.039 --> 01:05:42.139 podcast from Peak Prosperity, which is Chris 01:05:42.139 --> 01:05:46.179 Martinson's outfit. And really, it could have 01:05:46.179 --> 01:05:49.219 come from 2008 or 2009. I mean, there was just 01:05:49.219 --> 01:05:52.780 nothing there that struck me as particularly 01:05:52.780 --> 01:05:55.719 interesting. If the conversation about peak oil 01:05:55.719 --> 01:05:58.980 hasn't advanced any further than that in the 01:05:58.980 --> 01:06:05.320 last, what, eight years? It's just not a conversation 01:06:05.320 --> 01:06:07.480 that's worth keeping up with as far as I'm concerned. 01:06:08.559 --> 01:06:11.900 And when I say to people who are interested in 01:06:11.900 --> 01:06:14.679 peak oil that, look, mobile computing, social 01:06:14.679 --> 01:06:18.940 media, and just ubiquitous connectivity has had 01:06:18.940 --> 01:06:22.639 a much bigger impact on human consciousness and 01:06:22.639 --> 01:06:24.820 social organization than has resource constraints 01:06:24.820 --> 01:06:27.969 over the past decade and a half. They seem to 01:06:27.969 --> 01:06:30.190 take me to be saying that this is a good thing, 01:06:30.329 --> 01:06:33.030 that this is an uncomplicated boon to humanity. 01:06:33.130 --> 01:06:35.050 And I'm not saying that at all. That's not what 01:06:35.050 --> 01:06:37.110 makes it interesting. What makes it interesting 01:06:37.110 --> 01:06:40.210 is all of these social knock -on effects, all 01:06:40.210 --> 01:06:42.750 of these psychological, you know, all the psychological 01:06:42.750 --> 01:06:45.269 collateral damage that takes place in the wake 01:06:45.269 --> 01:06:48.530 of the implementation of these technologies on 01:06:48.530 --> 01:06:51.789 a massive scale. Those were unanticipated even 01:06:51.789 --> 01:06:54.670 just a few years ago, and now we are having enormous 01:06:54.670 --> 01:06:57.530 difficulties navigating this new world that we 01:06:57.530 --> 01:07:01.030 have created for ourselves. That is a very interesting 01:07:01.030 --> 01:07:05.610 conversation to me. And poo -pooing the most 01:07:05.610 --> 01:07:10.050 optimistic projections from technophiles, I guess 01:07:10.050 --> 01:07:12.130 it still needs to be done, but I'm just not the 01:07:12.130 --> 01:07:13.829 person to do it. It's just not anything that 01:07:13.829 --> 01:07:16.820 can hold my attention. But, you know, there are 01:07:16.820 --> 01:07:18.639 people for whom that is their bread and butter, 01:07:18.699 --> 01:07:21.079 and they do not deviate from that formula. So 01:07:21.079 --> 01:07:24.300 if it's what you want, there is no shortage of 01:07:24.300 --> 01:07:27.599 supply of peak oil doom, even though the peak 01:07:27.599 --> 01:07:29.840 oil scene generally is a ghost of its former 01:07:29.840 --> 01:07:33.179 self. All right, well, I'm going to try to put 01:07:33.179 --> 01:07:36.139 all this podcast into one file and get it uploaded 01:07:36.139 --> 01:07:39.920 for you. And then I have some more commentary 01:07:39.920 --> 01:07:42.519 that is specific to notes that I took on the 01:07:42.519 --> 01:07:44.659 conversation while editing it down to the... 01:07:45.130 --> 01:07:48.690 the length that you heard, but I don't have time 01:07:48.690 --> 01:07:51.670 for it in this episode of the podcast. So I always 01:07:51.670 --> 01:07:54.690 say this, but you know, it's always true. I'll 01:07:54.690 --> 01:07:55.429 talk to you again soon.