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KMO Show, episode number 30, Sunday, March 23rd,

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2025. You're listening to the KMO Show. I'm KMO.

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And I am joined by somebody who approached me

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via Substack, which is my only social media really

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these days. And I'm not sure how he wants to

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be identified. So I will just say, guest, please

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speak about yourself for a bit. Sure. So thanks

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for having me on the pod. My name is Kevin, and

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I currently co -host a podcast of my own called

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Synthesize Sunsets, which has an accompanying

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Substack. And on the podcast, we talk about a

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lot of stuff related to speculative fiction and

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also the evolution of popular culture and kind

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of like where we see that going. And also what

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we talk a lot about what sorts of media may rise

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and fall as we kind of just like, you know, hurdle

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into this new world of AI and algorithms. Our

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most recent, let's see, I would say that the

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articles that we write are usually along those

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lines, but we also have a lot of articles that

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are sort of like reflecting on childhood. So

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it'll be about some childhood experience and

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how that relates to some more suspected fiction

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we'll be reading or something along those lines.

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I would say that we're still kind of trying to

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find our identity as a publication and a podcast,

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but it's been pretty fun so far. And so we're

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interested to see how it's going to go. And you

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were one of the people to restack one of our

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more recent posts. And so I just thought it'd

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be a good opportunity to kind of talk about that

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and also other things. Well, what post was that?

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That post was 17776 by John Boyce and the slow

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cancellation of the future. And just in very

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brief terms, what's the topic there? What is

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that long number? Right, sure. So 17776 is a,

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in my opinion, actually, one of the more significant.

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One of the most significant works of science

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fiction in the 21st century. And it's this book

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by, well, book is a stretch. It is this narrative

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by a, like a sports writer named John Boyce that

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is like. very multimedia so when you when you

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read it on the internet it starts off as like

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this article and then it turns into like a calendar

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and then it turns into almost like this play

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script and you just have all these things like

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gifs and videos and text interacting in this

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very crazy way that wouldn't have really been

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possible that long before it was published and

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i remember reading it and i i really thought

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that it was a sign of what was to come um in

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the in the landscape of speculative fiction like

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i was like okay this is the sign that we have

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moved beyond just like the paradigms of of text

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and video and the new science fiction is going

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to be stuff that's you know in in like these

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multimedia forms that we're not familiar with

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and and some stuff that's going to have to develop

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as we get more familiar with it but uh you know

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since that work came out which i believe was

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in 2017 I would say that the opposite has happened.

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We've kind of just, as a society, doubled down

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on text and video as a society on the internet.

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And I think this has been a real shame because

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I just feel like the internet is not as explosive

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and vibrant and novel as it used to be. And in

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this article... um and try to tie this into um

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the ideas of mark fisher who is this um this

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left -wing sociologist um and who and his um

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his main idea was called the uh the slow cancellation

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of the future which is basically this idea that

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in the 20th century especially the first half

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of the 20th century people had all these different

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novel ideas of what future they want to live

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in and what society might look like you know

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decades centuries down the line Whereas in the

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latter half of the 20th century, and especially

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the 21st century, the future has sort of unceremoniously

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faded away. And now when people think about the

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future, they kind of just imagine a similar sort

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of dystopian world that hasn't really changed

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much. And there's been a lack of vision in terms

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of imagining what comes next. And he has a lot

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of different reasons for this, but to me, these

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two topics are just very intimately related.

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Well, the crossover audience between my podcasting

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efforts and those of Doug Lane, who's a friend

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of mine and somebody who's a ideological leftist,

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but somebody who criticizes the left from the

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left, they will definitely recognize the name

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Mark Fisher. In addition to the slow cancellation

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of the future, he's, I think, best known for

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the notion of capitalist realism. I think he

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had a book by that title. And also exiting the

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vampire castle. He was one of the first people

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on the left to criticize leftist cancel culture.

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And the people that he was criticizing, you know,

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responded unkindly and with such intensity and

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just unbroken, you know, relentlessness. I don't

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know. I can't draw an exact causal connection,

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but he did kill himself after that. So, yeah,

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Mark Fisher, definitely a name worth knowing

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if you don't already. So early on, like when

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you first approached me, you mentioned your age

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as a basically an enticement for talking to you.

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You probably don't talk to many Generation Z

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guys. And no, I don't. I mean, I have two sons

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of mine, but they don't tell me everything. And

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well. You mentioned your childhood. My childhood

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was in the 1970s and my adolescence and most

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of my teen years were in the 1980s. Actually,

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all of my teen years were in the 1980s. And the

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70s and the 80s have distinct characters. Like

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you wouldn't confuse one for the other. Just

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the visual images that go with each decade are

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unique. You know, they don't overlap much, even

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though, of course, there is a transition between

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one to the next. And yet that pattern of decades

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having distinct characters seems to have broken

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down in the 21st century. Like 2006, my mental

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images of it are not that different from 2016.

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And as a Gen Z man, I wonder what your perspective

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on that is. Right. Yeah. I think this is a really

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interesting point. I would say that I'm definitely...

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less of that view than most people, but this

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is definitely a common thing that people bring

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up. One of my favorite discussions of this particular

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idea, Mark Fisher, there's this podcast called

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by a guy named Joshua Citarella, who's just sort

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of like this interesting leftist thinker who

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has pretty heterodox people come onto his show.

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um and he had this discussion with um actually

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pretty famous musician maddie healy of the 1975

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and i did not expect like i generally don't have

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a high opinion or like very high expectations

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for what some musician is going to think about

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you know politics and culture but it was actually

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just a really really high level of discourse

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and they spent a lot of time on this topic in

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particular um like maddie healy was contending

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that you know decades don't have this distinctive

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identity anymore and kind of just everything

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doesn't have this distinctive identity anymore

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um like he was talking about how in the past

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like you know 70s 80s and 90s subcultures were

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sort of just People in certain subcultures were

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just sort of visually recognizably of that subculture.

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Like if you were to kind of see a group of punks,

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you're just like, oh, yeah, you know, or like

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a group of goth kids or a group of like, I don't

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know. I mean, I'm too young. I don't really know

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the stock subculture super well. But like if

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you saw a group of kids out, you would kind of

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just. know like what sort of subculture they're

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a part of whereas nowadays you see a group of

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kids like i don't know they're kind of just like

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dressing whatever and they they act like whatever

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um and he saw this as like a great loss um i

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i would say that um to me like different you

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know different decades definitely have um like

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a different aesthetic but I feel like the visual

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aspect of this aesthetic is so much less pronounced,

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especially in the real world. So something that

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Maddie Healy talks about is how Like in each

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decade of music, like just the paradigm shift

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from like, you know, an electric guitar to like

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synthesizers was crazy. Like nothing, like there

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were just a lot of things that you couldn't translate

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and just entire new things that had to be invented.

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And just like even visually, like going from

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like the electric guitar to like the computer

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and like machines was just like a big step. But

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now all the paradigm shifts occur within this

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frame of the computer. So you might have some

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interesting new paradigm shift related to the

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sounds that are used in your music. But it's

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just going to be like, oh yeah, this one computer

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thing to this other computer thing. And so when

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you have all these things being mediated within

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the frame of computers, I feel like it's harder

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to take in those distinct aesthetic impressions.

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When it comes to music, I don't really have the

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vocabulary to describe this in much detail, but

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it is my understanding that in the music world

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today, in terms of very popular music, there

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is just a handful of producers who are producing

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everything. And any given pop song is going to

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have a whole team of producers who assembled

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it. Each has their own specialty, crafting little

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pieces of hooks and little tiny snippets of dialogue.

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And one reason why there's just not that much

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distinctiveness is there are fewer people actually

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producing the creative element. It is a very

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closed shop, much like the internet has become

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a very closed shop in a lot of ways. Um, yeah,

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I would say that's, um, I would say it's a mostly

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accurate at, well, it's hard to say because I

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feel like music has always been pretty like,

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um, kind of like a, like an oligopoly. Um, I,

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I will say that, like, I think a, probably a,

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um, something that's more pronounced and they're

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being less producers is that there are, there

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are less labels. Um, you know, like you have,

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um, Like, it used to be that the music that was

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popular on the radio would come from this, you

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know, wide array of labels. You know, you have,

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like, Polidor and Republic and Interscope, but,

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you know, these are kind of just all being congealed

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into, like, you know, three or four different

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gigantic megacorps that, yeah, you know, are

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kind of just not really... like that's gonna

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have an effect you know bringing all these different

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labels under one roof even if they're supposed

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to have their own different feel and vibe um

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and so yeah there is a certain sameness in pop

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music um i mean i would just uh i would i just

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want to say that i i'm like a pretty big admirer

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of pop music in the sense that I see pop music

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as kind of like this cultural technology that's

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being improved every year. Like, I think it's

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just kind of being more and more and more optimized

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towards this ideal. And this is sort of like

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technologically cool to me, even though on some

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level, I think there are some levels on which

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it's kind of like, you know, repulsive, but it's

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like engineered to this degree. But just kind

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of from like a more technological sci -fi perspective,

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I find it to be very cool. You know, the notion

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that, decades would lose their distinctiveness

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seems at odds with the fact that technology changes

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quite a bit. It's, you would think that you could

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look for technological clues to a particular

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decade and you can, but it's just, they don't

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jump out. Like, did you ever see the first Zoolander

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movie with Ben Stiller as the fashion model?

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And not, unfortunately. Well, it's a parody.

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And in it, he's a very shallow fashion model.

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And this was before smartphones came out. And

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the trend in the pre -smartphone, you know, mobile

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phone era was for smartphones to get increasingly

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smaller. And Zoolander's phone was like... a

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prize out of a Cracker Jack box. It was a tiny,

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tiny little thing. It was impossibly small. You

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know, there were no phones that small at the

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time, but that was the gag, you know, that this

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New York fashion model has got the latest phone

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and it's tiny. That doesn't happen anymore. I

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mean, iPhones. It used to be that, you know,

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you could look at a movie and you would be shocked

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at how big somebody's phone was. And that's because,

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oh, yeah, that's from five years ago, you know,

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when phone technology was very different than

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it is now. And an iPhone from today, you know,

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at a glance, doesn't look much different from

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an iPhone from five years ago. So that those

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sorts of distinctions don't leap out like they

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used to. But at the same time, it's weird. Because

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particularly with AI, I mean, technology is moving

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quite a bit, but particularly in science fiction

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for the screen, you know, where you don't, you

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have less scientific rigor and less speculative

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emphasis. And, you know, it's more just sort

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of tropes and visual markers of science fiction

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that TV and movie writers employ. They don't

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seem to be keeping up with AI. And also there

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is, you know, a two, three, sometimes four and

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five year production pipeline. So people are

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writing things who, you know, might understand

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how. AI as it's manifesting in the world now

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is different from how science fiction authors

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had imagined it in the past. They might be incorporating

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that into their scripts now, but we won't see

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those scripts for a while. And so, you know,

00:14:46.120 --> 00:14:50.399
by the time that updated information about how

00:14:50.399 --> 00:14:53.759
real AI works filters into science fiction entertainment,

00:14:54.240 --> 00:14:56.740
AI will have moved on considerably since then.

00:14:56.940 --> 00:15:00.940
And yet I kind of anticipate that this lack of

00:15:00.940 --> 00:15:03.080
distinction between time period will continue

00:15:03.080 --> 00:15:07.039
i wonder what your thoughts are on that um yeah

00:15:07.039 --> 00:15:12.100
i mean i i definitely agree um i think that uh

00:15:12.100 --> 00:15:15.720
especially in the domain of movies it's just

00:15:15.720 --> 00:15:19.879
kind of striking how much recycling happens um

00:15:19.879 --> 00:15:22.200
you know like i think that if you're not as plugged

00:15:22.200 --> 00:15:25.299
into sci -fi literature in particular then it's

00:15:25.299 --> 00:15:28.539
maybe not as visible but just more and more and

00:15:28.539 --> 00:15:32.549
more like every single sci -fi property on screen

00:15:32.549 --> 00:15:35.330
is just adapted from some you know pretty old

00:15:35.330 --> 00:15:39.429
property or just recycling these tropes that

00:15:39.429 --> 00:15:41.750
should be common to any like big consumer sci

00:15:41.750 --> 00:15:45.269
-fi or both um like i remember um i recently

00:15:45.269 --> 00:15:49.549
saw mickey 17 in theaters and it was just like

00:15:49.549 --> 00:15:52.549
so striking to me how many elements of these

00:15:52.549 --> 00:15:54.830
films are just recognizably of other science

00:15:54.830 --> 00:15:57.389
fiction properties like these these aliens show

00:15:57.389 --> 00:16:00.399
up who just look incredibly similar to the aliens

00:16:00.399 --> 00:16:03.039
in nasca of the valley of the wind from like

00:16:03.039 --> 00:16:05.960
the 1970s and then you know it's based off of

00:16:05.960 --> 00:16:08.639
this pre -existing novel and you know it's about

00:16:08.639 --> 00:16:10.919
this guy who just like dies a bunch of times

00:16:10.919 --> 00:16:12.960
and comes back to life it's just like wow i've

00:16:12.960 --> 00:16:16.259
never seen that before um and i think that uh

00:16:16.259 --> 00:16:20.250
i do wonder like is the movie industry going

00:16:20.250 --> 00:16:23.509
to like eventually there's gonna they're gonna

00:16:23.509 --> 00:16:26.269
stop running out of these big sweeping sci -fi

00:16:26.269 --> 00:16:28.450
narratives to adapt right there are only so many

00:16:28.450 --> 00:16:33.009
dunes um and so i i kind of wonder like will

00:16:33.009 --> 00:16:35.009
that happen you know or will people just kind

00:16:35.009 --> 00:16:38.230
of be satisfied to kind of just get these um

00:16:38.230 --> 00:16:40.389
sci -fi films that are just regurgitated forms

00:16:40.389 --> 00:16:42.230
of everything else that has already come before

00:16:42.230 --> 00:16:44.820
it Well, there's a lot of different ways to go

00:16:44.820 --> 00:16:47.480
with that. But for the non -film geeks, I want

00:16:47.480 --> 00:16:49.779
to point out that Mickey 17, which I have not

00:16:49.779 --> 00:16:53.259
seen, is directed by Bong Joon -ho, who directed

00:16:53.259 --> 00:16:57.700
Parasite and Snowpiercer and an older, really

00:16:57.700 --> 00:17:01.220
fun horror movie called, what was the one with

00:17:01.220 --> 00:17:06.400
the monster in the bay? What was that? Not familiar.

00:17:06.519 --> 00:17:08.319
I think I've only seen, yeah, I've only seen

00:17:08.319 --> 00:17:11.299
Memories of Murder and the ones you mentioned.

00:17:11.380 --> 00:17:15.099
Oh, okay. Well, anyway, he's visually a very

00:17:15.099 --> 00:17:18.140
creative director, you know, a bold director.

00:17:18.339 --> 00:17:21.640
Oh, he also did a movie for Netflix called Okja,

00:17:21.799 --> 00:17:23.700
which was about... Oh, right. I've seen Okja

00:17:23.700 --> 00:17:26.000
as well. Well, for those who haven't, it's about

00:17:26.000 --> 00:17:28.319
a genetically engineered, like, hippopotamus

00:17:28.319 --> 00:17:32.099
that is being raised for meat, but it's cute

00:17:32.099 --> 00:17:34.380
and smart and it's, you know, don't eat meat.

00:17:34.640 --> 00:17:39.559
propaganda sort of film. And what I've heard

00:17:39.559 --> 00:17:44.119
about Mickey 17 is that it is pretty heavy handed

00:17:44.119 --> 00:17:48.019
in terms of the, the progressive messaging, which

00:17:48.019 --> 00:17:50.759
is required in Hollywood films today. And because

00:17:50.759 --> 00:17:53.200
of the long production pipeline, it does not

00:17:53.200 --> 00:17:56.400
reflect the recent vibe shift. And so it really

00:17:56.400 --> 00:18:00.019
stands out as being, you know, sort of oppressive

00:18:00.019 --> 00:18:01.839
and heavy handed in that way. I wonder if that.

00:18:02.519 --> 00:18:06.160
uh vibes with your impression of the film yeah

00:18:06.160 --> 00:18:09.500
i mean the social commentary like i was just

00:18:09.500 --> 00:18:13.059
so underwhelming to me like i mean okay like

00:18:13.059 --> 00:18:15.400
in fairness this movie was supposed to come out

00:18:15.400 --> 00:18:18.640
two years ago um even two years ago though i

00:18:18.640 --> 00:18:20.519
think a lot of the social commentary would have

00:18:20.519 --> 00:18:23.779
felt dated um but like i'm just like man it's

00:18:23.779 --> 00:18:26.980
it's 2025 and we're still like i mean i don't

00:18:26.980 --> 00:18:29.440
want to like spoil the film but it was just so

00:18:29.440 --> 00:18:31.900
so on the nose and that was something i was pretty

00:18:31.900 --> 00:18:34.740
disappointed by because i feel like in in most

00:18:34.740 --> 00:18:37.660
of bong's films the the social commentary is

00:18:37.660 --> 00:18:40.960
pretty like you know like kind of interesting

00:18:40.960 --> 00:18:43.759
and subversive um certainly in parasite but also

00:18:43.759 --> 00:18:46.079
memories of murder like the takeaway is is not

00:18:46.079 --> 00:18:48.539
is not so simple but you know after mickey 17

00:18:48.539 --> 00:18:50.500
i was kind of just like okay yes this is this

00:18:50.500 --> 00:18:53.920
is what the director wants me to think well it's

00:18:53.920 --> 00:18:57.259
funny you know that we're we were just a few

00:18:57.259 --> 00:18:58.839
minutes ago, we're talking about how the different

00:18:58.839 --> 00:19:01.039
decades don't look or sound all that distinct.

00:19:01.259 --> 00:19:03.180
And yet when it comes to political messaging

00:19:03.180 --> 00:19:05.420
and films, it's like, Oh man, that's so five

00:19:05.420 --> 00:19:07.859
years ago. You know, like there are distinct

00:19:07.859 --> 00:19:12.119
eras and, and distinct shifts in, you know, in

00:19:12.119 --> 00:19:13.920
how people are thinking and communicating and

00:19:13.920 --> 00:19:17.380
articulating themselves. Oh yeah. Yeah. For sure.

00:19:17.779 --> 00:19:24.200
I mean, I think that, um, just, just like on

00:19:24.200 --> 00:19:28.319
a meta level, like, i do think that um it puts

00:19:28.319 --> 00:19:31.180
you in like a weird um it puts you in a weird

00:19:31.180 --> 00:19:34.720
rhetorical position when you're kind of like

00:19:34.720 --> 00:19:39.799
you know on the left but you just kind of disagree

00:19:39.799 --> 00:19:44.519
like you disagree with um like you know even

00:19:44.519 --> 00:19:48.680
like the didactism of it all or just like or

00:19:48.680 --> 00:19:52.890
just like anything really um because like I just

00:19:52.890 --> 00:19:55.430
feel that there's a lot there, like there's kind

00:19:55.430 --> 00:19:58.650
of like a lot to attack. And so I think that

00:19:58.650 --> 00:20:02.009
it's if someone is kind of like on the left,

00:20:02.069 --> 00:20:05.630
it's very easy for them to kind of slide into

00:20:05.630 --> 00:20:08.369
this role of just like only criticizing the left

00:20:08.369 --> 00:20:10.569
or just like, you know, them criticizing the

00:20:10.569 --> 00:20:13.410
left being a big chunk of what they do. And it's

00:20:13.410 --> 00:20:14.809
like if you're in that position at a certain

00:20:14.809 --> 00:20:18.230
point, it's sort of just like. okay but but but

00:20:18.230 --> 00:20:19.990
like what are you what are you trying to accomplish

00:20:19.990 --> 00:20:22.109
like what what is the goal of this and i think

00:20:22.109 --> 00:20:25.369
this is often met with suspicion and so i think

00:20:25.369 --> 00:20:27.589
that the um like the second order effect of this

00:20:27.589 --> 00:20:30.910
is that i think people are um i'm going to be

00:20:30.910 --> 00:20:33.309
charitable here and say that i do think part

00:20:33.309 --> 00:20:38.180
of um modern left -wing cancel culture is a product

00:20:38.180 --> 00:20:41.359
of the fact that um that like people are um like

00:20:41.359 --> 00:20:43.900
are suspicious you know of of your intentions

00:20:43.900 --> 00:20:47.000
because there are like a lot of people who are

00:20:47.000 --> 00:20:49.640
kind of like purportedly left -wing but as like

00:20:49.640 --> 00:20:51.779
the years go on and on and on you kind of see

00:20:51.779 --> 00:20:54.680
that it was just like all a farce um and so i

00:20:54.680 --> 00:20:58.700
think that um if if you sort of have like you

00:20:58.700 --> 00:21:00.940
know these these like left -wing bona fides people

00:21:00.940 --> 00:21:03.720
are are would be a lot less likely to kind of

00:21:03.720 --> 00:21:05.900
like you know question your intentions like that

00:21:06.140 --> 00:21:08.660
Although, you know, I'm certainly not going to

00:21:08.660 --> 00:21:11.640
go to bat for cancel culture or anything. Well,

00:21:11.720 --> 00:21:15.160
some of my favorite Substack accounts are like

00:21:15.160 --> 00:21:18.880
postcards from Barsoom by John Carter, Library

00:21:18.880 --> 00:21:25.720
of Salino or Saleno, Tree of Woe, Walt Bismarck.

00:21:25.720 --> 00:21:28.480
I mean, these are people that I would have described

00:21:28.480 --> 00:21:32.359
as alt -right, but now they're more dissident

00:21:32.359 --> 00:21:34.500
right, I guess is the current term. Alt -right

00:21:34.500 --> 00:21:38.599
was more sort of shock. and transgressive for

00:21:38.599 --> 00:21:40.299
its own sake, whereas the dissident right is

00:21:40.299 --> 00:21:43.680
more intellectual and nuanced. And, you know,

00:21:43.680 --> 00:21:47.440
for somebody on the left who wants to present

00:21:47.440 --> 00:21:49.480
themselves, you know, as a public intellectual,

00:21:49.619 --> 00:21:51.440
yeah, you can criticize the left from the left.

00:21:51.480 --> 00:21:53.799
In a way, it's easier because you're already

00:21:53.799 --> 00:21:57.720
familiar with the left. To criticize the right

00:21:57.720 --> 00:22:00.960
from the left, you either have to pay attention

00:22:00.960 --> 00:22:05.099
to what the right vanguard is doing, which...

00:22:05.529 --> 00:22:08.150
As far as I can tell, there is very little appetite

00:22:08.150 --> 00:22:11.529
for doing so. Or you just criticize a caricature

00:22:11.529 --> 00:22:13.269
of the right, which people who are on the right

00:22:13.269 --> 00:22:15.789
recognize as, you know, being completely, you

00:22:15.789 --> 00:22:18.029
know, just irrelevant to their actual concerns.

00:22:18.710 --> 00:22:21.329
But if you're going to, you know, make the effort

00:22:21.329 --> 00:22:25.910
and actually follow and internalize nuanced arguments

00:22:25.910 --> 00:22:29.430
by people that you expect to disagree with, you

00:22:29.430 --> 00:22:30.890
know, you've got to know going into that that

00:22:30.890 --> 00:22:32.990
very few of your intent and audience members

00:22:32.990 --> 00:22:36.180
are going to follow you in that. So I just don't

00:22:36.180 --> 00:22:38.980
see any real interesting criticism of the actual

00:22:38.980 --> 00:22:44.940
right from the left. I actually think that like

00:22:44.940 --> 00:22:49.240
for me, I see cancel culture in its modern form

00:22:49.240 --> 00:22:52.599
as more of a product of like, I guess what you

00:22:52.599 --> 00:22:55.500
would call in. Well, like, I mean, this term

00:22:55.500 --> 00:22:57.920
has become so loaded now, but like liberalism,

00:22:57.920 --> 00:23:00.579
you know, like modern, modern liberalism. I think

00:23:00.579 --> 00:23:03.059
that the left. Pause for a moment and unpack

00:23:03.059 --> 00:23:04.960
your use of that, because that is a very big

00:23:04.960 --> 00:23:08.440
term. Right. OK, sure, sure, sure. So, I mean,

00:23:08.460 --> 00:23:11.160
there's you can use the phrase you can use the

00:23:11.160 --> 00:23:14.490
phrase liberal in many senses. There's sort of

00:23:14.490 --> 00:23:16.950
like this idea of the classical liberal. And

00:23:16.950 --> 00:23:19.390
then I feel like also you could use liberal in

00:23:19.390 --> 00:23:21.230
like the institutional sense, someone who's very

00:23:21.230 --> 00:23:23.910
pro -institution. But I think in modern American

00:23:23.910 --> 00:23:27.809
political discourse, liberal usually means like,

00:23:27.970 --> 00:23:30.609
you know, someone that's like on the left, but

00:23:30.609 --> 00:23:32.670
they're not quite a leftist. You know, I guess

00:23:32.670 --> 00:23:35.690
sort of like the modal Democratic Party member.

00:23:36.830 --> 00:23:40.470
And I think that when you compare someone who's,

00:23:40.470 --> 00:23:42.670
I guess, self -identifies as liberal versus someone

00:23:42.670 --> 00:23:45.609
who self -identifies as a leftist, because leftists

00:23:45.609 --> 00:23:48.329
are kind of very reluctant to identify with the

00:23:48.329 --> 00:23:51.509
liberal label at all, in my experience. I would

00:23:51.509 --> 00:23:54.049
say that those on the left are definitely much

00:23:54.049 --> 00:23:58.390
less wedded to cancel culture, much more willing

00:23:58.390 --> 00:24:01.529
to engage with the right in a substantive manner.

00:24:03.420 --> 00:24:05.920
of course this has this dynamic has changed a

00:24:05.920 --> 00:24:07.900
bit as left -wing thought has become like way

00:24:07.900 --> 00:24:10.779
way more mainstream like i think that just naturally

00:24:10.779 --> 00:24:13.359
as a movement becomes more mainstream its ideas

00:24:13.359 --> 00:24:18.599
become less nuanced and diluted um but um i i

00:24:18.599 --> 00:24:21.700
guess i wouldn't have ever like i don't think

00:24:21.700 --> 00:24:25.109
i identify um like I guess this reluctance to

00:24:25.109 --> 00:24:27.109
engage with, with like leftist specifically.

00:24:27.609 --> 00:24:30.170
Um, I feel like if you, like, I don't know if

00:24:30.170 --> 00:24:31.589
you're familiar with the, are you familiar with

00:24:31.589 --> 00:24:34.309
like the dirt bag left at all? Like, um, I'm

00:24:34.309 --> 00:24:37.569
familiar with the term. I never have been a,

00:24:37.609 --> 00:24:40.089
uh, an appreciator of Chapo trap house, but yeah,

00:24:40.170 --> 00:24:42.970
I, I interviewed, uh, Angela Nagel several years

00:24:42.970 --> 00:24:44.829
ago. I think she was, uh, considered a member

00:24:44.829 --> 00:24:48.029
of the dirt bag left, but yeah, I'm, I'm familiar

00:24:48.029 --> 00:24:50.269
with some of the names and some of the, uh, the

00:24:50.269 --> 00:24:52.430
personalities, but it's, it's not something I

00:24:52.430 --> 00:24:54.940
consume regularly. yeah right i mean i i wouldn't

00:24:54.940 --> 00:24:56.619
say that i consume the dirtbag left regularly

00:24:56.619 --> 00:24:58.539
either but i think it's just kind of an example

00:24:58.539 --> 00:25:01.440
of i feel like there has always been this tradition

00:25:01.440 --> 00:25:03.779
of of engaging with the right and i i generally

00:25:03.779 --> 00:25:07.140
have seen that i feel like the right or the left

00:25:07.140 --> 00:25:10.420
like you know i think the far left engages with

00:25:10.420 --> 00:25:13.380
the right usually in like a more kind of nuanced

00:25:13.380 --> 00:25:15.920
and informed way than like the than like the

00:25:15.920 --> 00:25:21.390
center left um i guess also um Yeah, like I would

00:25:21.390 --> 00:25:24.809
also say that because like the right has kind

00:25:24.809 --> 00:25:27.589
of been like almost like sort of counterculture

00:25:27.589 --> 00:25:30.329
for a while, maybe not anymore. But I think that

00:25:30.329 --> 00:25:33.329
the movement that is in the counterculture is

00:25:33.329 --> 00:25:36.109
always going to be more intellectually generative.

00:25:36.150 --> 00:25:38.630
You know, like there's not really this institutional

00:25:38.630 --> 00:25:42.250
vision of what being on the right is. And like,

00:25:42.309 --> 00:25:45.549
I think that. there are so many currents in the

00:25:45.549 --> 00:25:47.809
right wing but it's hard to know what's going

00:25:47.809 --> 00:25:50.329
on unless you're really plugged in and so i think

00:25:50.329 --> 00:25:53.609
that honestly um especially after watching mickey

00:25:53.609 --> 00:25:56.930
17 i think there are a lot of liberals who still

00:25:56.930 --> 00:26:00.049
operate under this like you know 90s early odds

00:26:00.049 --> 00:26:03.369
paradigm of what like what conservatives are

00:26:03.369 --> 00:26:04.970
and what republicans are and what they stand

00:26:04.970 --> 00:26:08.430
for that just really isn't true anymore um science

00:26:08.430 --> 00:26:10.769
fiction We're getting kind of political here.

00:26:10.890 --> 00:26:13.170
And while I certainly have political opinions,

00:26:13.470 --> 00:26:19.230
it's not my main ballywick these days. I write

00:26:19.230 --> 00:26:23.049
about science fiction and I say futurism, you

00:26:23.049 --> 00:26:25.130
know, with sort of tongue in cheek, because I

00:26:25.130 --> 00:26:27.829
think predictions of the future are, you know,

00:26:27.829 --> 00:26:30.490
accurate ones are quite rare and probably don't

00:26:30.490 --> 00:26:33.769
show up often in futurist discourse. They're

00:26:33.769 --> 00:26:35.970
more likely to show up in like economic discourse.

00:26:36.170 --> 00:26:39.259
Somebody always calls it right. So let's go back

00:26:39.259 --> 00:26:42.940
to sci -fi. A big frustration of mine is that,

00:26:42.960 --> 00:26:44.960
you know, as a teenager, I read a lot of print

00:26:44.960 --> 00:26:48.660
science fiction. Loved it. And I work in a library

00:26:48.660 --> 00:26:51.799
now, and I see that, you know, in your generation,

00:26:51.940 --> 00:26:54.019
at least people who depend on public libraries

00:26:54.019 --> 00:26:57.279
to get their books, young men don't read. They

00:26:57.279 --> 00:26:58.900
come in and they get on the computers or they

00:26:58.900 --> 00:27:02.039
check out DVDs or video games, but they don't

00:27:02.039 --> 00:27:05.460
check out books. Young women do check out books,

00:27:05.579 --> 00:27:09.170
and... The science fiction, like the mainstream

00:27:09.170 --> 00:27:12.009
publishing end of science fiction has shifted

00:27:12.009 --> 00:27:16.569
hard over into romanticy, graying into like,

00:27:16.650 --> 00:27:19.250
you know, erotica and what a fellow librarian

00:27:19.250 --> 00:27:22.430
calls book porn. Because, you know, it doesn't

00:27:22.430 --> 00:27:25.430
have the stigma of full on audio visual porn

00:27:25.430 --> 00:27:29.690
that you'd get from the Internet. So, you know,

00:27:29.690 --> 00:27:31.430
they can read it at home in front of their parents

00:27:31.430 --> 00:27:35.130
or read it wherever. And, you know. It's created

00:27:35.130 --> 00:27:38.750
an ugly feedback loop in that young women read

00:27:38.750 --> 00:27:41.309
books, young men don't. So the publishing industry,

00:27:41.589 --> 00:27:46.170
it has its ideological side, but just market

00:27:46.170 --> 00:27:49.329
forces alone would cause them to tailor their

00:27:49.329 --> 00:27:51.150
output for the people who are already spending

00:27:51.150 --> 00:27:53.569
money on their product, which is going to drive

00:27:53.569 --> 00:27:55.309
it further in the direction of appealing to women

00:27:55.309 --> 00:27:58.809
and driving away men. So I've been saying that

00:27:58.809 --> 00:28:00.970
on my blog quite a bit. So I'll stop and get

00:28:00.970 --> 00:28:06.529
your perspective. Right. So, yeah, I mean, there's

00:28:06.529 --> 00:28:08.730
kind of, yeah, there's a lot of stuff to respond

00:28:08.730 --> 00:28:13.029
to here. I mean, I think that you have this,

00:28:13.130 --> 00:28:15.930
like, I mean, first of all, it's certainly true.

00:28:16.089 --> 00:28:20.250
Like, less men are reading books. And I guess,

00:28:20.250 --> 00:28:23.309
like, not to sound like a suburban mom, but I

00:28:23.309 --> 00:28:25.289
think a large part of it is the video games.

00:28:25.670 --> 00:28:28.089
You know, for, like, you know, for sci -fi and

00:28:28.089 --> 00:28:31.150
fantasy in particular. I think that... A lot

00:28:31.150 --> 00:28:34.329
of men who would have been reading about these

00:28:34.329 --> 00:28:36.750
literary adventure fantasies in the past are

00:28:36.750 --> 00:28:39.349
now getting that same narrative feel from or

00:28:39.349 --> 00:28:41.289
that same narrative experience from video games.

00:28:41.450 --> 00:28:43.369
Only it's even more awesome because they get

00:28:43.369 --> 00:28:45.289
to partake in this narrative themselves. Like

00:28:45.289 --> 00:28:47.569
they don't just have to kind of imagine themselves

00:28:47.569 --> 00:28:50.250
in that world. And so I think that a lot of the

00:28:50.250 --> 00:28:53.250
narrative energy in terms of entertainment targeted

00:28:53.250 --> 00:28:57.190
towards men has moved towards video games. But

00:28:57.190 --> 00:29:01.380
I think that. It's also true that there are other

00:29:01.380 --> 00:29:03.180
things that work, you know, like there are all

00:29:03.180 --> 00:29:06.700
of these complicated feedback loops when it comes

00:29:06.700 --> 00:29:09.559
to publishing. um yeah publishing has definitely

00:29:09.559 --> 00:29:13.579
moved in a more um like you know a more like

00:29:13.579 --> 00:29:17.019
female direction and there's many different stories

00:29:17.019 --> 00:29:19.200
you can tell about this right like one is you

00:29:19.200 --> 00:29:22.279
could say that it's like this ideological um

00:29:22.279 --> 00:29:24.220
you could you'd say it's ideologically motivated

00:29:24.220 --> 00:29:26.480
and the result of these like woke publishing

00:29:26.480 --> 00:29:29.319
houses another angle you could take is that it's

00:29:29.319 --> 00:29:31.700
um it's market forces and then there's another

00:29:31.700 --> 00:29:33.299
there's other takes you take as well or you could

00:29:33.299 --> 00:29:35.460
say it's a combination of all of them um and

00:29:35.789 --> 00:29:37.589
I guess I'm pretty sympathetic to the argument

00:29:37.589 --> 00:29:40.690
that it's a combination of market forces, but

00:29:40.690 --> 00:29:43.109
then also there just being so many fewer publishing

00:29:43.109 --> 00:29:45.450
houses. I mean, the consolidation of publishing

00:29:45.450 --> 00:29:47.829
has just been like a complete disaster in my

00:29:47.829 --> 00:29:50.569
opinion. There's just like basically four or

00:29:50.569 --> 00:29:52.809
five publishing houses that publish essentially

00:29:52.809 --> 00:29:54.390
all the books that are popular in the United

00:29:54.390 --> 00:29:57.339
States. And I think that... when you have that

00:29:57.339 --> 00:29:59.920
situation, you're more likely to have these market

00:29:59.920 --> 00:30:02.680
inefficiencies. If you were to have a healthier

00:30:02.680 --> 00:30:05.680
ecosystem of medium -sized to small publishing

00:30:05.680 --> 00:30:08.519
houses that were writing books for other demographics,

00:30:08.759 --> 00:30:10.619
then I think that you would be less likely to

00:30:10.619 --> 00:30:13.480
see it as extreme as now. But because there's

00:30:13.480 --> 00:30:16.660
only four companies that just really care about

00:30:16.660 --> 00:30:19.220
their bottom line, you just see a lot less variation

00:30:19.220 --> 00:30:23.759
in what's getting published. I do expect that

00:30:23.759 --> 00:30:27.990
to change, but I do think that you know, it is

00:30:27.990 --> 00:30:30.309
to some degree a product of like the consolidation

00:30:30.309 --> 00:30:35.210
of these, of these like large corporations. Apologies

00:30:35.210 --> 00:30:38.509
to whoever's argument I'm about to steal. Somebody

00:30:38.509 --> 00:30:40.130
presented this to me and if I could remember

00:30:40.130 --> 00:30:42.630
who it was, I would credit them. But there's

00:30:42.630 --> 00:30:48.230
a, what's the phrase? A principal agent problem

00:30:48.230 --> 00:30:53.069
in publishing in that books tend to come to the

00:30:53.069 --> 00:30:56.769
attention of publishers via agents. And agents

00:30:56.769 --> 00:30:59.470
don't take the same financial risks that the

00:30:59.470 --> 00:31:02.730
publishers do. So while they are supposed to

00:31:02.730 --> 00:31:04.910
be representing the publisher's interests, in

00:31:04.910 --> 00:31:08.150
fact, they're really primarily engaged in managing

00:31:08.150 --> 00:31:10.630
their own social reputations amongst their peers.

00:31:10.910 --> 00:31:13.950
And so, you know, there came a point a few years

00:31:13.950 --> 00:31:16.630
ago when it was beyond not cool. It was simply

00:31:16.630 --> 00:31:21.430
just not done to buy the work of. you know, and

00:31:21.430 --> 00:31:24.089
this is from agents, you know, to buy or champion

00:31:24.089 --> 00:31:28.789
the work of emerging white male writers. You

00:31:28.789 --> 00:31:33.869
know, if your new protege was not in some consecrated

00:31:33.869 --> 00:31:37.009
demographic, you know, it just, in terms of the

00:31:37.009 --> 00:31:39.549
social standing of the people in that world,

00:31:39.569 --> 00:31:42.180
it just... You know, that didn't fly. And the

00:31:42.180 --> 00:31:46.119
fact that it was damaging the sales, you know,

00:31:46.119 --> 00:31:49.140
the financial returns of the publishers didn't

00:31:49.140 --> 00:31:52.220
affect the agents directly. That's the, you know,

00:31:52.240 --> 00:31:54.099
the principal agent problem where the agent is

00:31:54.099 --> 00:31:55.920
supposed to be representing the interests of

00:31:55.920 --> 00:31:57.519
the principal and they don't. They represent

00:31:57.519 --> 00:32:00.359
their own interests. And I think, you know, the

00:32:00.359 --> 00:32:04.299
industry has adapted to that by leaning hard

00:32:04.299 --> 00:32:07.559
into book porn, you know, aimed at women. And

00:32:07.559 --> 00:32:09.519
part of it is in science fiction. And then, you

00:32:09.519 --> 00:32:13.880
know, part of it is just romance. This is kind

00:32:13.880 --> 00:32:16.460
of off topic, but there's a disturbing trend

00:32:16.460 --> 00:32:19.240
that I see just as a librarian. And it's that

00:32:19.240 --> 00:32:24.339
these very sexually explicit romance novels aimed

00:32:24.339 --> 00:32:27.099
at young women have covers that would be very

00:32:27.099 --> 00:32:29.500
appealing to children. You know, they're very

00:32:29.500 --> 00:32:33.339
cutesy, very simple looking covers, which is

00:32:33.339 --> 00:32:37.230
weird. And part of it is. Some of these authors

00:32:37.230 --> 00:32:40.029
started out writing young adult fiction, which

00:32:40.029 --> 00:32:42.450
was not sexually explicit, but the authors have

00:32:42.450 --> 00:32:47.250
aged, their audience has aged, and they are now,

00:32:47.410 --> 00:32:49.329
they and their audience are more interested in

00:32:49.329 --> 00:32:53.170
sexually explicit material. And so that doesn't

00:32:53.170 --> 00:32:54.990
explain why the publishers, because it's not

00:32:54.990 --> 00:32:57.509
the writer's choice to put a cutesy cover on

00:32:57.509 --> 00:33:01.250
a sexually explicit book, but it does explain

00:33:01.250 --> 00:33:05.269
the shift. in in content by the writers and readers

00:33:05.269 --> 00:33:08.269
although not the behavior of the publishers i

00:33:08.269 --> 00:33:11.750
mean i'm i think the simplest explanation is

00:33:11.750 --> 00:33:13.990
they've market tested things and that's what

00:33:13.990 --> 00:33:20.609
sells yeah but but yeah i like i i just feel

00:33:20.609 --> 00:33:24.230
like this is a pretty clear i i think this is

00:33:24.230 --> 00:33:28.210
a case where there is a pretty strong like you

00:33:28.210 --> 00:33:30.369
know i think there's a pretty strong case to

00:33:30.369 --> 00:33:34.059
be made that publishing could be best improved

00:33:34.059 --> 00:33:36.519
through like you know like a left -wing frame

00:33:36.519 --> 00:33:39.440
you know like i think that it would be i think

00:33:39.440 --> 00:33:42.680
it's hard to argue against the idea that the

00:33:42.680 --> 00:33:45.099
consolidation of publishing into these gigantic

00:33:45.099 --> 00:33:47.319
mega corporations has been a big contributor

00:33:47.319 --> 00:33:50.400
into like the flattening of the literature landscape.

00:33:51.200 --> 00:33:54.140
Because like, yeah, I mean, if there were kind

00:33:54.140 --> 00:33:56.559
of like these more of these smaller publishers

00:33:56.559 --> 00:33:58.819
that could get work out there, then I think that

00:33:58.819 --> 00:34:00.720
the market would respond, you know, like people

00:34:00.720 --> 00:34:02.599
would, there would be a market for those books.

00:34:02.619 --> 00:34:04.740
It wouldn't be as big as the market for like,

00:34:04.839 --> 00:34:09.449
you know. erotica with cutesy covers but it would

00:34:09.449 --> 00:34:11.289
still have a way of getting out there but now

00:34:11.289 --> 00:34:13.489
that pretty much the only way to get your stuff

00:34:13.489 --> 00:34:15.929
out there is through these large mega corporations

00:34:15.929 --> 00:34:19.949
then it is kind of just up to the like it's much

00:34:19.949 --> 00:34:22.909
more sensitive to I guess vibe shifts as you

00:34:22.909 --> 00:34:26.510
could say well one thing we haven't mentioned

00:34:26.510 --> 00:34:29.699
is that We've been talking about changes in the

00:34:29.699 --> 00:34:31.820
publishing industry, but there are people who

00:34:31.820 --> 00:34:36.219
love science fiction from the 70s, 80s, 90s and

00:34:36.219 --> 00:34:39.940
aughts, and they're still writing it, but the

00:34:39.940 --> 00:34:41.800
big publishers aren't publishing it. But you

00:34:41.800 --> 00:34:45.260
can go on Kindle Direct Publishing and put your

00:34:45.260 --> 00:34:47.960
novel out. I've done that. I've talked to many

00:34:47.960 --> 00:34:50.659
other people who have done that. Amazon doesn't

00:34:50.659 --> 00:34:53.119
help with discovery. They don't show your book

00:34:53.119 --> 00:34:56.599
to anybody. So you can sell copies to whatever

00:34:56.599 --> 00:34:59.320
business you can drum up yourself. They will

00:34:59.320 --> 00:35:01.219
deliver. They will print and deliver the books,

00:35:01.380 --> 00:35:03.280
but they're not going to help you with marketing.

00:35:04.329 --> 00:35:08.210
And there's a couple different scenarios that

00:35:08.210 --> 00:35:11.110
can play out from this. You mentioned what happens

00:35:11.110 --> 00:35:13.989
when Dune has been remade four times and all

00:35:13.989 --> 00:35:16.349
the good sci -fi properties from the past have

00:35:16.349 --> 00:35:19.309
been totally milked and the publishing industry

00:35:19.309 --> 00:35:23.210
isn't providing anything new that is suitable.

00:35:23.449 --> 00:35:25.309
There's a couple different things that can happen.

00:35:26.250 --> 00:35:29.070
Hollywood studios can send their AI agents out

00:35:29.070 --> 00:35:31.510
into the Internet and find all the stuff that

00:35:31.510 --> 00:35:34.110
people have been publishing, you know, outside

00:35:34.110 --> 00:35:37.090
of the mainstream publishing apparatus for the

00:35:37.090 --> 00:35:42.110
past decade. And, you know, option those those

00:35:42.110 --> 00:35:44.170
books for films and TV and such, which would

00:35:44.170 --> 00:35:47.110
be great news for the people. who have been struggling,

00:35:47.130 --> 00:35:49.789
you know, outside of the mainstream to keep their

00:35:49.789 --> 00:35:53.250
favorite genre alive and vital. Or the AI can

00:35:53.250 --> 00:35:55.070
just go out there, sample all the stuff that

00:35:55.070 --> 00:35:57.690
was never published and never really recognized

00:35:57.690 --> 00:36:01.449
and just mine it for bits of vitality to take

00:36:01.449 --> 00:36:04.570
back to the Hollywood studios and not reward

00:36:04.570 --> 00:36:07.590
the people who struggled in, you know, in isolation

00:36:07.590 --> 00:36:12.789
and in, you know, under hard circumstances with

00:36:12.789 --> 00:36:16.929
no, you know. no feedback no encouragement and

00:36:16.929 --> 00:36:20.969
and no you know significant paycheck yeah i mean

00:36:20.969 --> 00:36:23.829
that would certainly be kind of a dystopian outcome

00:36:23.829 --> 00:36:28.070
um but not i think um yeah but but certainly

00:36:28.070 --> 00:36:31.809
not surprising um yeah i don't know it's like

00:36:31.809 --> 00:36:34.170
interesting i feel like this is the case in both

00:36:34.170 --> 00:36:37.409
music and literature like on some level it's

00:36:37.409 --> 00:36:39.809
never been easier to release things out into

00:36:39.809 --> 00:36:43.570
the world but also at the same time it's just

00:36:43.570 --> 00:36:46.710
you know never been harder to get like it's it's

00:36:46.710 --> 00:36:48.550
very hard to get like a medium number of eyeballs

00:36:48.550 --> 00:36:50.690
on something if that makes sense like you're

00:36:50.690 --> 00:36:52.909
either you're either big or you're small and

00:36:52.909 --> 00:36:55.530
i think that the age of the medium record label

00:36:55.530 --> 00:36:59.110
the medium publishing house is over you know

00:36:59.110 --> 00:37:01.849
it's about like yeah either going to the mainstream

00:37:01.849 --> 00:37:04.789
channels or getting your um you know unexpected

00:37:04.789 --> 00:37:09.210
shot at virality i saw actually a um a pretty

00:37:09.210 --> 00:37:12.210
interesting take on substack recently i i really

00:37:12.210 --> 00:37:18.239
can't speak to um like how true it is. But this

00:37:18.239 --> 00:37:20.400
person was basically hypothesizing that they

00:37:20.400 --> 00:37:24.760
think that people perceive reading books as even

00:37:24.760 --> 00:37:27.980
more feminine than it actually is because a lot

00:37:27.980 --> 00:37:31.199
of women have become very good at sort of marketing

00:37:31.199 --> 00:37:33.639
like books as lifestyle, if that makes sense.

00:37:33.800 --> 00:37:36.159
You know, like both authors and readers being

00:37:36.159 --> 00:37:39.099
able to treat a brand around their engagement

00:37:39.099 --> 00:37:42.539
with literature and like... posting about it

00:37:42.539 --> 00:37:44.579
on social media in a way that that's enticing

00:37:44.579 --> 00:37:46.960
and gets people excited to also partake in this

00:37:46.960 --> 00:37:49.960
activity whereas if you think of of guys like

00:37:49.960 --> 00:37:53.000
i mean the ratio of like i guess female literary

00:37:53.000 --> 00:37:56.880
influencers to male literary influencers is probably

00:37:56.880 --> 00:38:00.460
like ridiculously high um and like i mean it

00:38:00.460 --> 00:38:02.699
just it just kind of makes sense like i feel

00:38:02.699 --> 00:38:06.360
like it's um like it's harder for me to imagine

00:38:06.360 --> 00:38:09.460
a guy doing that sort of thing are you familiar

00:38:09.460 --> 00:38:13.480
with book talk Yeah, I'm familiar. So for those

00:38:13.480 --> 00:38:17.760
who are my age or older, the talk there is T

00:38:17.760 --> 00:38:21.679
-O -K, not T -A -L -K. It's a subculture on,

00:38:21.800 --> 00:38:24.820
it's a channel, but also a, it's an account,

00:38:24.920 --> 00:38:27.679
but also a subculture on TikTok. And basically

00:38:27.679 --> 00:38:32.380
it is, it's a pipeline for amplifying, you know,

00:38:32.380 --> 00:38:35.280
the personalities in the book porn world. And

00:38:35.280 --> 00:38:38.139
again, book porn not being the sort of imagery

00:38:38.139 --> 00:38:39.780
that pornography, you know, the word pornography

00:38:39.780 --> 00:38:42.840
brings to mind, but the evolution of what used

00:38:42.840 --> 00:38:45.539
to be called the bodice ripper, which was basically

00:38:45.539 --> 00:38:49.559
rape fantasies for women that starred, you know,

00:38:49.559 --> 00:38:52.440
relatable women and hunky men as personified

00:38:52.440 --> 00:38:55.139
by a model from the 80s, a guy named Fabio. Do

00:38:55.139 --> 00:38:58.360
you know about Fabio? Yes, I do know. Anyway,

00:38:59.619 --> 00:39:02.780
the genre has moved on from there and fused with

00:39:02.780 --> 00:39:06.579
some science fiction, but mostly fantasy. And

00:39:06.579 --> 00:39:12.239
also the Fifty Shades of Grey turning point has

00:39:12.239 --> 00:39:15.539
really just shifted the whole thing in a very

00:39:15.539 --> 00:39:20.519
BDSM direction. You know, it's far more prevalent

00:39:20.519 --> 00:39:25.610
in book porn and book talk than it is. Then you

00:39:25.610 --> 00:39:27.909
would imagine, like looking at the covers or

00:39:27.909 --> 00:39:30.590
just reading, even reading summaries of these

00:39:30.590 --> 00:39:33.469
things, the summations from the publishers are

00:39:33.469 --> 00:39:36.550
often, you know, there's a wink and a nudge or

00:39:36.550 --> 00:39:38.849
there's some coded language. I mean, they don't

00:39:38.849 --> 00:39:40.789
present themselves to the uninformed the way

00:39:40.789 --> 00:39:43.449
they do to people looking for a particular experience

00:39:43.449 --> 00:39:49.570
from their books. It is an odd phenomenon. Yeah,

00:39:49.670 --> 00:39:51.829
I mean, I don't want to dunk on Romanticy too

00:39:51.829 --> 00:39:53.989
hard because I feel like... Don't worry, I'll

00:39:53.989 --> 00:40:02.389
do it. Kind of easy to do. But I think that there

00:40:02.389 --> 00:40:08.889
is variation within Romanticy. Not all Romanticy

00:40:08.889 --> 00:40:12.909
is just part erotica. I would also say that this

00:40:12.909 --> 00:40:17.110
is not a new phenomenon at all. These sort of...

00:40:17.800 --> 00:40:20.800
like trashy romance books have always been popular.

00:40:21.679 --> 00:40:24.239
But like you said, what is different is that

00:40:24.239 --> 00:40:27.280
they have a much more like, you know, innocuous

00:40:27.280 --> 00:40:30.780
like presentation to person doesn't know much

00:40:30.780 --> 00:40:34.860
about it. And. i think especially like as um

00:40:34.860 --> 00:40:37.440
as different demographics drift apart you know

00:40:37.440 --> 00:40:39.199
in terms of what they consume people are way

00:40:39.199 --> 00:40:41.659
less tuned in into what this stuff actually is

00:40:41.659 --> 00:40:45.619
you know like i um like we we know like peop

00:40:45.619 --> 00:40:48.099
i i assume people on substack you know surely

00:40:48.099 --> 00:40:52.510
know all about romanticism and its perils after

00:40:52.510 --> 00:40:56.849
the last discourse cycle. But if I talk to my

00:40:56.849 --> 00:40:59.769
average guy friend who has just not cracked open

00:40:59.769 --> 00:41:03.530
a book for fun in a while, they're not going

00:41:03.530 --> 00:41:05.730
to know what A Court of Thorns and Roses is.

00:41:05.869 --> 00:41:08.809
They're just not going to know anything about

00:41:08.809 --> 00:41:11.369
this. And yeah, I mean, I think this is not such

00:41:11.369 --> 00:41:13.869
a good precedent. I think that we should be honest

00:41:13.869 --> 00:41:17.030
about what it is that we're reading. And of course,

00:41:17.030 --> 00:41:19.760
people can enjoy things, but Yeah, I think that

00:41:19.760 --> 00:41:22.039
there should definitely be more stigma towards

00:41:22.039 --> 00:41:25.360
this sort of thing. Like, I remember I, like,

00:41:25.579 --> 00:41:27.559
yeah, yeah. I mean, that's basically all I have

00:41:27.559 --> 00:41:30.519
to say about that. I have nothing against people

00:41:30.519 --> 00:41:32.840
reading what they want to read in order to get

00:41:32.840 --> 00:41:35.019
a particular sensation that they're looking for.

00:41:35.559 --> 00:41:37.900
That's fine. I mean, that's what everybody does.

00:41:38.039 --> 00:41:40.659
You know, some people have, they're searching

00:41:40.659 --> 00:41:42.480
for something that I appreciate, and some people

00:41:42.480 --> 00:41:44.000
are searching for something that I don't appreciate.

00:41:44.599 --> 00:41:47.159
irritates me is that science fiction and fantasy

00:41:47.159 --> 00:41:49.860
have been joined at the hip my whole life, and

00:41:49.860 --> 00:41:52.420
the fantasy, and in particular fantasy aimed

00:41:52.420 --> 00:41:56.320
at women, portion of that genre is crowding out

00:41:56.320 --> 00:42:00.139
everything else. So if Romanticy didn't grow

00:42:00.139 --> 00:42:02.760
at the expense of speculative fiction, I would

00:42:02.760 --> 00:42:05.579
say, you know, go with God, I wish you well,

00:42:05.739 --> 00:42:10.360
enjoy. But given that it's a zero -sum competition

00:42:10.360 --> 00:42:15.599
with my genre, uh, I'm antagonistic towards romantic.

00:42:16.380 --> 00:42:18.440
Yeah. This is something that I've been thinking

00:42:18.440 --> 00:42:23.519
about a lot. Um, because I think like on some

00:42:23.519 --> 00:42:26.860
level, I think that, um, having this blend of

00:42:26.860 --> 00:42:29.340
fantasy and science fiction makes sense. Like,

00:42:29.400 --> 00:42:31.579
I mean, if you've ever read Ursula K. Le Guin,

00:42:31.780 --> 00:42:34.880
it's just like, yeah, it makes sense that you

00:42:34.880 --> 00:42:37.340
can join fantasy and science fiction these interesting

00:42:37.340 --> 00:42:40.460
ways. But I do agree, you know, like we're kind

00:42:40.460 --> 00:42:42.599
of in this, we're kind of in this golden age

00:42:42.599 --> 00:42:45.260
of fantasy in terms of popularity. I don't think

00:42:45.260 --> 00:42:48.300
like. I don't know if fantasy novels have ever

00:42:48.300 --> 00:42:51.099
been as popular as they currently are. I mean,

00:42:51.179 --> 00:42:53.739
it's one of the last genres that people still

00:42:53.739 --> 00:42:57.260
read a lot of. I would certainly say that fantasy

00:42:57.260 --> 00:43:00.559
is the most widely read genre in my age group,

00:43:00.719 --> 00:43:07.380
besides maybe some form of nonfiction. But yeah,

00:43:07.539 --> 00:43:12.440
at the same time, the sort of really hard conceptual

00:43:12.440 --> 00:43:14.679
science fiction has kind of been pushed to the

00:43:14.679 --> 00:43:18.739
side. And I feel like it's not even about like

00:43:18.739 --> 00:43:21.519
a lack of works, but it's sort of a lack of institutional

00:43:21.519 --> 00:43:25.699
support. Like if you look at, you know, the mainstream

00:43:25.699 --> 00:43:29.599
sci -fi awards, for example, it used to be that,

00:43:29.659 --> 00:43:33.219
yeah, these awards were given to speculative

00:43:33.219 --> 00:43:34.800
fiction. You know, they could theoretically be

00:43:34.800 --> 00:43:36.780
given to fantasy or science fiction or whatever,

00:43:36.940 --> 00:43:39.920
but they used to award a very particular type

00:43:39.920 --> 00:43:44.619
of novel. I would say nowadays the types of novels

00:43:44.619 --> 00:43:47.920
that they award are quite different. You know,

00:43:47.960 --> 00:43:51.579
like it used to be that they would award books

00:43:51.579 --> 00:43:53.820
that were more kind of like coming out of this

00:43:53.820 --> 00:43:57.360
more pulpy magazine scene and often had these

00:43:57.360 --> 00:43:59.639
like crazy novel ideas that like nobody had seen

00:43:59.639 --> 00:44:02.019
before. Whereas nowadays it's much more common

00:44:02.019 --> 00:44:05.940
for just kind of like a like, you know, the hot.

00:44:06.360 --> 00:44:08.940
like the hot fantasy book of the year to be nominated.

00:44:09.320 --> 00:44:11.820
Um, and I think that's fine and great, but like,

00:44:11.820 --> 00:44:14.019
like for fantasy to get that kind of recognition,

00:44:14.119 --> 00:44:16.820
but there isn't really like a counterpart, you

00:44:16.820 --> 00:44:19.139
know, like where, where is, where, like, where

00:44:19.139 --> 00:44:23.739
is the award for the more hard sci -fi, um, like

00:44:23.739 --> 00:44:26.559
publish it or that publication of the year? Like,

00:44:26.619 --> 00:44:29.039
where is the, where is the magazine that focuses

00:44:29.039 --> 00:44:30.639
on this type of science fiction? Where's the

00:44:30.639 --> 00:44:33.329
publishing house. Um, and. The consolidation

00:44:33.329 --> 00:44:36.309
in publishing is really prominent in the Hugo

00:44:36.309 --> 00:44:39.570
Awards. If you look at the Hugo Awards for Best

00:44:39.570 --> 00:44:43.070
Novel, it's basically just the tour, which is

00:44:43.070 --> 00:44:46.449
a sci -fi publishing house that is itself part

00:44:46.449 --> 00:44:48.030
of another bigger publishing house that just

00:44:48.030 --> 00:44:50.090
basically pats itself on the back and wins over

00:44:50.090 --> 00:44:51.570
and over and over. I think it's been quite a

00:44:51.570 --> 00:44:55.829
long time since the winner of Best Novel has

00:44:55.829 --> 00:45:00.579
not been a product of tour. And I think that's

00:45:00.579 --> 00:45:03.659
sad. I think that there should be this diversity

00:45:03.659 --> 00:45:06.059
in publishing and this diversity in what sorts

00:45:06.059 --> 00:45:08.639
of genres get awarded by both awards and the

00:45:08.639 --> 00:45:10.900
market. But I see it as an institutional problem,

00:45:11.059 --> 00:45:15.099
first and foremost. Well, I directed us away

00:45:15.099 --> 00:45:17.880
from politics into science fiction, and we've

00:45:17.880 --> 00:45:19.760
talked about the politics of science fiction.

00:45:20.480 --> 00:45:24.179
So let's redirect even harder into the science

00:45:24.179 --> 00:45:26.199
fiction territory, just science fiction for its

00:45:26.199 --> 00:45:30.739
own sake. You read it on the page. You are you

00:45:30.739 --> 00:45:32.900
haven't been doing it as long as I have. So you

00:45:32.900 --> 00:45:36.739
have a you know, the things that you have read

00:45:36.739 --> 00:45:38.539
and which have made a strong impression on you

00:45:38.539 --> 00:45:41.199
are probably going to be different. But also

00:45:41.199 --> 00:45:44.260
I'm imagining some overlap. So what are the big,

00:45:44.260 --> 00:45:46.760
big names, you know, either titles or authors

00:45:46.760 --> 00:45:49.719
for you in print science fiction? In print science

00:45:49.719 --> 00:45:54.119
fiction? Yeah. So let's see. I mean, I think

00:45:54.119 --> 00:46:01.519
that for me. Asimov is probably the most influential,

00:46:03.179 --> 00:46:07.900
sort of. But I see Asimov's greatest achievements

00:46:07.900 --> 00:46:12.780
as being more of a curator, community figure

00:46:12.780 --> 00:46:19.460
type person. Honestly, I would say that when

00:46:19.460 --> 00:46:23.210
I look at... When I look at the course of science

00:46:23.210 --> 00:46:25.230
fiction, I find myself being much more drawn

00:46:25.230 --> 00:46:28.469
to people who played a sort of like, like curator

00:46:28.469 --> 00:46:31.829
or editor role. I think that like, to me, those

00:46:31.829 --> 00:46:34.010
are the people who really shaped the direction

00:46:34.010 --> 00:46:36.289
of science fiction, you know, like Campbell,

00:46:36.530 --> 00:46:43.070
and like, like, Bova and Allison, you know, people

00:46:43.070 --> 00:46:45.570
who were trying to intentionally direct science

00:46:45.570 --> 00:46:47.730
fiction in a certain direction. But I feel like

00:46:47.730 --> 00:46:50.110
that's not exactly what you were asking. I think

00:46:50.110 --> 00:46:53.230
in terms of the more foundational authors, I

00:46:53.230 --> 00:46:57.409
mean, Ursula K. Le Guin, certainly, Neil Stevenson,

00:46:57.530 --> 00:47:02.070
Frank Herbert. I wish I had some kind of list

00:47:02.070 --> 00:47:04.949
in front of me. I'm glad you don't. I'm glad

00:47:04.949 --> 00:47:07.679
that, you know. The titles you're naming are

00:47:07.679 --> 00:47:10.719
having to struggle to the surface. Right, right.

00:47:11.380 --> 00:47:15.440
I mean, certainly Ray Bradbury. I mean, maybe

00:47:15.440 --> 00:47:18.380
Ray Bradbury more than anyone else. Arthur C.

00:47:18.420 --> 00:47:22.679
Clarke. In the 2010s, I would say definitely

00:47:22.679 --> 00:47:29.079
Shishun Liu. Definitely, definitely, I think

00:47:29.079 --> 00:47:30.440
definitely The Broken Earth deserves mention,

00:47:30.619 --> 00:47:33.679
even though it's sort of half fantasy by N .K.

00:47:33.699 --> 00:47:37.349
Jemisin. Book of the New Sun by Gene Wolfe stands

00:47:37.349 --> 00:47:40.309
out to me as being important. I would also say,

00:47:40.429 --> 00:47:44.010
I mean, William Gibson, obviously, although I

00:47:44.010 --> 00:47:46.329
haven't really read that much of his work. I

00:47:46.329 --> 00:47:49.429
would say that I probably know more about like

00:47:49.429 --> 00:47:52.570
the relative reputations of authors and like

00:47:52.570 --> 00:47:54.769
why they're significant than I am having like

00:47:54.769 --> 00:47:57.230
firsthand experience reading their novels, which

00:47:57.230 --> 00:47:59.010
I think is kind of something that should be fixed.

00:48:00.300 --> 00:48:03.239
most of the engagement that i've had with reading

00:48:03.239 --> 00:48:05.900
science fiction has been either short stories

00:48:05.900 --> 00:48:09.659
or reading web fiction which i would definitely

00:48:09.659 --> 00:48:12.639
consider to be part of science fiction but it's

00:48:12.639 --> 00:48:14.840
it's certainly like a much different territory

00:48:14.840 --> 00:48:17.780
and not really related as related to the question

00:48:17.780 --> 00:48:22.630
that you're asking so Yeah, I don't know if that's

00:48:22.630 --> 00:48:24.349
exactly the response you were looking for, but

00:48:24.349 --> 00:48:26.090
that's what I could think of so far. A lot of

00:48:26.090 --> 00:48:27.469
people that came out of the Pacific Northwest

00:48:27.469 --> 00:48:30.489
as well, you know, like Greg Baer, Octavia Butler,

00:48:30.849 --> 00:48:34.769
Ted Chiang, Ken Liu. I mean, Ken Liu's from Boston,

00:48:34.909 --> 00:48:36.989
but forgot Ted Chiang. Yeah, I mean, I think

00:48:36.989 --> 00:48:38.789
Ted Chiang is probably one of the most significant

00:48:38.789 --> 00:48:41.190
science fiction authors writing today. Ursula

00:48:41.190 --> 00:48:43.369
K. Le Guin as well was from Oregon, or at least

00:48:43.369 --> 00:48:46.030
she lived in Oregon late in her life. Right,

00:48:46.070 --> 00:48:48.250
right, for sure. But must have been earlier too,

00:48:48.349 --> 00:48:50.940
because like The Lathe of Heaven. I think it's

00:48:50.940 --> 00:48:56.599
set in the Pacific Northwest. So, yeah. I didn't

00:48:56.599 --> 00:48:58.659
have an answer in mind. I just wanted to have

00:48:58.659 --> 00:49:02.079
you name some things. You mentioned Asimov up

00:49:02.079 --> 00:49:06.820
front, and I read and enjoyed Asimov's, you know,

00:49:06.820 --> 00:49:10.250
his robot novels and short stories. But there's

00:49:10.250 --> 00:49:13.389
an unfortunate phenomenon of, you know, people

00:49:13.389 --> 00:49:15.550
who consider themselves to be erudite science

00:49:15.550 --> 00:49:18.289
fiction aficionados. When other people ask them,

00:49:18.369 --> 00:49:20.650
you know, where do I start? They say, oh, you

00:49:20.650 --> 00:49:23.690
got to read the Foundation Trilogy. The Foundation

00:49:23.690 --> 00:49:28.210
Trilogy is just so boring and dry. And I just,

00:49:28.289 --> 00:49:30.789
I cringed at the thought of people who were willing

00:49:30.789 --> 00:49:32.489
to give science fiction a chance. And somebody

00:49:32.489 --> 00:49:35.150
said, yeah, start with this. And they read like,

00:49:35.309 --> 00:49:36.849
you know, three or four chapters and they're

00:49:36.849 --> 00:49:40.059
like, eh, I don't think so. You know, when you

00:49:40.059 --> 00:49:42.199
could, you could have given them Greg bear, you

00:49:42.199 --> 00:49:43.519
know, you could have given them William Gibson.

00:49:43.940 --> 00:49:46.199
Go ahead. Oh yeah. I mean, I certainly wouldn't

00:49:46.199 --> 00:49:48.820
recommend Asimov as the first science fiction

00:49:48.820 --> 00:49:53.099
novel to read. I mean, I think that, you know,

00:49:53.099 --> 00:49:57.059
nowadays I think that Asimov's like, I think

00:49:57.059 --> 00:49:59.239
Asimov's shortcomings as a writer are more apparent

00:49:59.239 --> 00:50:03.139
nowadays. Like, I think that. you can say what

00:50:03.139 --> 00:50:05.139
you will about the changes in science fiction,

00:50:05.320 --> 00:50:08.239
but I think that it's fair to say that since

00:50:08.239 --> 00:50:11.039
Asimov wrote, science fiction writers are now

00:50:11.039 --> 00:50:12.820
expected to be much better character writers.

00:50:13.099 --> 00:50:15.219
Like there are very few characters in Foundation

00:50:15.219 --> 00:50:18.500
that I can really remember in any way. And I

00:50:18.500 --> 00:50:21.000
think that they are also incentivized to be like...

00:50:21.260 --> 00:50:24.280
you know, much better prose stylists. Maybe not

00:50:24.280 --> 00:50:26.139
much better than they were in, like, the 80s

00:50:26.139 --> 00:50:28.400
or 90s, but certainly better than when Foundation

00:50:28.400 --> 00:50:31.079
was coming out. And I think if you read Foundation

00:50:31.079 --> 00:50:34.440
now, like, especially if you're someone who kind

00:50:34.440 --> 00:50:36.739
of just, like, you know, pines for the glory

00:50:36.739 --> 00:50:39.179
days of science fiction, it's kind of a reminder

00:50:39.179 --> 00:50:41.260
that, like, okay, well, but there are also some

00:50:41.260 --> 00:50:44.989
ways in which this genre has improved. I actually

00:50:44.989 --> 00:50:47.829
didn't find Foundation to be, well, I mean, okay,

00:50:47.949 --> 00:50:49.789
the later books are not as interesting, but I

00:50:49.789 --> 00:50:51.969
found Foundation to be pretty interesting. But

00:50:51.969 --> 00:50:54.949
I mean, yeah, it's certainly not something that

00:50:54.949 --> 00:50:58.090
I would recommend at first to anyone. Well, you

00:50:58.090 --> 00:50:59.989
mentioned that his characters aren't that memorable.

00:51:01.159 --> 00:51:03.239
Part of that is just the structure of foundation.

00:51:03.340 --> 00:51:06.059
There are jumps of hundreds of years where the

00:51:06.059 --> 00:51:07.780
characters from the previous chapter are dead.

00:51:07.920 --> 00:51:09.360
You know, they live their whole lives and died

00:51:09.360 --> 00:51:11.519
a natural death. And now you've got new people

00:51:11.519 --> 00:51:15.139
and you've got recorded messages from Harry Seldon,

00:51:15.199 --> 00:51:17.940
you know, addressing people in ways that are

00:51:17.940 --> 00:51:21.019
increasingly detached from the reality of their

00:51:21.019 --> 00:51:24.199
situation as his prognostications have gone off

00:51:24.199 --> 00:51:27.539
the rails or, you know, how reality has gone

00:51:27.539 --> 00:51:30.360
off the rails from his mathematically pure prognostications.

00:51:31.389 --> 00:51:35.769
And when Apple TV turned that series into a TV

00:51:35.769 --> 00:51:39.329
show, you know, a big budget prestige TV show,

00:51:39.389 --> 00:51:41.650
they had to fix that. You had to have recurring

00:51:41.650 --> 00:51:43.789
characters that, you know, you would cast for

00:51:43.789 --> 00:51:46.590
multiple seasons and would bring people back,

00:51:46.590 --> 00:51:47.949
you know, to see what happened to those characters.

00:51:48.050 --> 00:51:49.849
So you couldn't do this. Hey, yeah, we're going

00:51:49.849 --> 00:51:52.050
to. We're going to jump ahead to the next crisis,

00:51:52.090 --> 00:51:54.030
and it's a whole different cast of characters

00:51:54.030 --> 00:51:56.210
who are dealing with it. You know, so they've

00:51:56.210 --> 00:52:00.750
introduced longevity and time travel and uploaded

00:52:00.750 --> 00:52:03.730
minds and, you know, all of these tricks, basically,

00:52:03.730 --> 00:52:06.989
to have the same four or five characters interacting

00:52:06.989 --> 00:52:09.690
with each other over many centuries. Oh, and

00:52:09.690 --> 00:52:11.829
also the cloned emperors, which is not from the

00:52:11.829 --> 00:52:14.699
books, but I thought that was the best. addition

00:52:14.699 --> 00:52:18.119
for the tv show was the uh the tripart emperor

00:52:18.119 --> 00:52:21.659
who is child's adult and old man simultaneously

00:52:21.659 --> 00:52:26.159
um yeah i mean the foundation adapting foundation

00:52:26.159 --> 00:52:29.219
was certainly an interesting choice um i was

00:52:29.219 --> 00:52:31.920
pretty into the first few episodes of the tv

00:52:31.920 --> 00:52:33.940
show especially with the clone emperor thing

00:52:33.940 --> 00:52:36.599
like you mentioned but yeah i mean i kind of

00:52:36.599 --> 00:52:42.139
did lose some interest um i think that um like

00:52:42.889 --> 00:52:45.269
Yeah, it was always going to be difficult. I

00:52:45.269 --> 00:52:48.690
mean, I guess I do appreciate the effort. I think

00:52:48.690 --> 00:52:50.309
it's cool that someone tried to adapt Foundation,

00:52:50.590 --> 00:52:53.769
as difficult as that seems. And understanding,

00:52:53.969 --> 00:52:58.329
I mean, I cannot fault them for departing from

00:52:58.329 --> 00:53:01.489
Asimov's method of just scrapping your entire

00:53:01.489 --> 00:53:04.460
cast of characters with each vignette. That just

00:53:04.460 --> 00:53:08.840
doesn't fly in prestige TV. You can't spend as

00:53:08.840 --> 00:53:11.119
much money as they've spent visualizing something

00:53:11.119 --> 00:53:15.000
that doesn't have a recurring cast. For sure.

00:53:15.079 --> 00:53:19.760
Well, since we're on prestige TV and I'll say

00:53:19.760 --> 00:53:23.099
sci -fi, I'm not sure if what I'm thinking of

00:53:23.099 --> 00:53:26.920
now counts as speculative fiction, but I've been

00:53:26.920 --> 00:53:31.619
watching Severance. And just from a sociological

00:53:31.619 --> 00:53:34.980
or economic perspective, severance has got a

00:53:34.980 --> 00:53:37.539
fascinating premise. There's an operation that

00:53:37.539 --> 00:53:40.300
somebody can undergo that splits their personality

00:53:40.300 --> 00:53:44.059
in two, and the personality that is at work doesn't

00:53:44.059 --> 00:53:46.199
remember what happened at work when they go home,

00:53:46.300 --> 00:53:49.760
and the person at work doesn't really know the

00:53:49.760 --> 00:53:52.739
details of their life outside of work. So if

00:53:52.739 --> 00:53:57.519
you agree to undergo this procedure, You know

00:53:57.519 --> 00:53:59.340
that you're either going to wake up at work and

00:53:59.340 --> 00:54:02.559
you can never leave. Or if you do quit and leave

00:54:02.559 --> 00:54:06.420
work, then you're you effectively die or you're

00:54:06.420 --> 00:54:09.480
going to be on perpetual paid vacation. You know,

00:54:09.480 --> 00:54:13.039
what a choice. But really, both things are going

00:54:13.039 --> 00:54:17.800
to happen. You know, both experiential branches

00:54:17.800 --> 00:54:20.659
will be taken. And maybe, you know, does the

00:54:20.659 --> 00:54:23.840
does the question which one will be me make any

00:54:23.840 --> 00:54:26.670
sense? Is it even, you know, a viable question?

00:54:26.809 --> 00:54:31.130
So these are like speculative. This is the meat

00:54:31.130 --> 00:54:33.969
for speculative experimentation, like thought

00:54:33.969 --> 00:54:37.449
experiments. But it doesn't feel like science

00:54:37.449 --> 00:54:39.969
fiction to me. I wonder, first, have you seen

00:54:39.969 --> 00:54:42.190
it? And two, you know, where would you place

00:54:42.190 --> 00:54:44.429
it in terms of its relation to the science fiction

00:54:44.429 --> 00:54:48.070
genre? I've seen a few episodes of Severance.

00:54:48.130 --> 00:54:53.239
It's been a little bit of time. I mean, I would

00:54:53.239 --> 00:54:56.360
certainly classify Severance as science fiction,

00:54:56.559 --> 00:54:59.460
although I would say that as a general rule,

00:54:59.659 --> 00:55:04.219
I'm pretty liberal with assigning genre labels.

00:55:04.300 --> 00:55:06.900
I'm pretty willing to assign a wide range of

00:55:06.900 --> 00:55:11.139
genre labels to many things. But yeah, I guess

00:55:11.139 --> 00:55:15.320
what made it feel not science fiction to you?

00:55:15.619 --> 00:55:17.360
Well, it just seems to have a whole lot more

00:55:17.360 --> 00:55:20.079
in common with, say, Twin Peaks than it does

00:55:20.079 --> 00:55:23.690
with... altered carbon you know it's it's just

00:55:23.690 --> 00:55:28.250
it's very interested in style and tone and there

00:55:28.250 --> 00:55:32.449
other than the severance um procedure there is

00:55:32.449 --> 00:55:35.110
no technological difference between the worlds

00:55:35.110 --> 00:55:37.309
of that show and our world except that when the

00:55:37.309 --> 00:55:40.030
characters go to work they're using very very

00:55:40.030 --> 00:55:42.949
old technology like they have computers but they're

00:55:42.949 --> 00:55:46.190
big fat crts you know and big clicky keyboards

00:55:46.190 --> 00:55:51.860
and um do they even have mice Not sure. But it's,

00:55:51.860 --> 00:55:54.780
you know, it's old tech, like, you know, phones

00:55:54.780 --> 00:55:59.599
with cords. And so in terms of just visualizing

00:55:59.599 --> 00:56:03.719
how the world would be transformed by scientific

00:56:03.719 --> 00:56:06.480
and technological advancement, Severance isn't

00:56:06.480 --> 00:56:08.659
really interested. It's got its one thing that

00:56:08.659 --> 00:56:11.000
it's interested in. It's kind of like, what was

00:56:11.000 --> 00:56:14.219
that movie? Brainstorm, which kind of got remade

00:56:14.219 --> 00:56:17.559
as Strange Days. The idea that you can record

00:56:17.559 --> 00:56:22.139
experience. on hard media and then share it with

00:56:22.139 --> 00:56:25.300
other people. And, you know, if that happened,

00:56:25.420 --> 00:56:27.420
so many other technological developments would

00:56:27.420 --> 00:56:29.340
go hand in hand with that. And these films are

00:56:29.340 --> 00:56:31.300
just not interested in exploring, you know, a

00:56:31.300 --> 00:56:34.139
systemic upgrade of technological capabilities.

00:56:34.159 --> 00:56:36.579
They're just interested in this one tweak. But

00:56:36.579 --> 00:56:38.760
the tweak is impossible because it involves,

00:56:38.980 --> 00:56:41.260
you know, a huge leap in technological capabilities

00:56:41.260 --> 00:56:45.139
that isn't spread around, you know, that the

00:56:45.139 --> 00:56:49.829
implications of that leap are not explored. And,

00:56:50.170 --> 00:56:51.710
you know, this is, to me, the difference between

00:56:51.710 --> 00:56:54.570
Hollywood writers dabbling in science fiction

00:56:54.570 --> 00:56:57.429
concepts and people who, you know, are primarily

00:56:57.429 --> 00:57:00.469
science fiction authors who might get the chance

00:57:00.469 --> 00:57:04.150
to do big budget TV and movies. Right. I mean,

00:57:04.150 --> 00:57:06.690
it kind of reminds me of this one time on the

00:57:06.690 --> 00:57:10.769
podcast, we were talking to one of my friends,

00:57:11.050 --> 00:57:14.489
and he was basically saying that the thing that

00:57:14.489 --> 00:57:17.590
most distinguishes hard science fiction, so to

00:57:17.590 --> 00:57:21.000
speak. is the degree to which it takes its premises

00:57:21.000 --> 00:57:25.340
to its logical conclusion rather than deploying

00:57:25.340 --> 00:57:28.679
a certain level of like technological specificity

00:57:28.679 --> 00:57:30.820
and i thought that was like an interesting way

00:57:30.820 --> 00:57:33.659
to frame it like he was saying that you know

00:57:33.659 --> 00:57:37.300
a um like a story a fantasy story that takes

00:57:37.300 --> 00:57:41.280
its um like economics very very seriously um

00:57:41.280 --> 00:57:45.280
is it's much more hard to him than just like

00:57:45.280 --> 00:57:47.800
a very kind of loose story that just happens

00:57:47.800 --> 00:57:52.019
to be set in space with spaceships um and i do

00:57:52.019 --> 00:57:55.300
think that this style over substance is a point

00:57:55.300 --> 00:57:58.059
of tension in a lot of things but but yeah like

00:57:58.059 --> 00:58:01.559
i think that um science fiction nowadays has

00:58:01.559 --> 00:58:06.199
become more of a like more of an aesthetic than

00:58:06.889 --> 00:58:09.530
than like a vision i guess like i think people

00:58:09.530 --> 00:58:12.989
are more interested generally in adopting a science

00:58:12.989 --> 00:58:17.329
fiction aesthetic than imagining the then then

00:58:17.329 --> 00:58:19.750
using it as a tool to imagine the future i think

00:58:19.750 --> 00:58:22.289
they're both present but i think that in some

00:58:22.289 --> 00:58:24.170
sense the people who created the foundations

00:58:24.170 --> 00:58:27.150
of science fiction were too successful they created

00:58:27.150 --> 00:58:29.329
an aesthetic that was they created a wide array

00:58:29.329 --> 00:58:32.150
of aesthetics that were so compelling that they

00:58:32.150 --> 00:58:35.619
kind of became compelling on their own without

00:58:35.619 --> 00:58:39.840
like a speculative component. And so I think

00:58:39.840 --> 00:58:41.500
that's where questions of genre start to get

00:58:41.500 --> 00:58:44.360
really interesting. Like if you have a story

00:58:44.360 --> 00:58:47.019
that is really grounded in the aesthetics of

00:58:47.019 --> 00:58:49.880
science fiction, like it has spaceships and has

00:58:49.880 --> 00:58:54.179
like robots, but at the same time, it just has

00:58:54.179 --> 00:58:56.820
all the trappings of like a fantasy novel or

00:58:56.820 --> 00:58:58.460
a fantasy adventure. Like, is it sci -fi? Is

00:58:58.460 --> 00:59:01.300
it fantasy? Who knows? Yeah. And to some extent,

00:59:02.000 --> 00:59:04.340
The distinctions between science fiction and

00:59:04.340 --> 00:59:11.320
fantasy, they're arbitrary. But when it comes

00:59:11.320 --> 00:59:14.599
to speculative fiction, yeah, you can have speculative

00:59:14.599 --> 00:59:18.860
fiction in a high fantasy setting if you are

00:59:18.860 --> 00:59:21.639
really going to drill down on the implications

00:59:21.639 --> 00:59:25.039
of, say, your economic system. Or if you want

00:59:25.039 --> 00:59:29.059
to be like... I've seen YouTube videos examining

00:59:29.059 --> 00:59:33.619
the military implications of dragons in Game

00:59:33.619 --> 00:59:36.639
of Thrones. Like you have a medieval setting,

00:59:36.719 --> 00:59:39.940
but you have air power and you have the ability

00:59:39.940 --> 00:59:42.980
to bombard, you know, fortified positions from

00:59:42.980 --> 00:59:46.000
the air with fire that is so hot it melts stone.

00:59:46.960 --> 00:59:49.900
totally changes the way that you deploy military

00:59:49.900 --> 00:59:52.719
force or you project military force. And if only

00:59:52.719 --> 00:59:54.820
one side has dragons, you know, then there's

00:59:54.820 --> 00:59:57.900
I don't know that George R .R. Martin or even

00:59:57.900 --> 01:00:01.320
more so that the TV producers, Benioff and Weiss,

01:00:01.320 --> 01:00:05.380
really had that in mind and were, you know, rigorously

01:00:05.380 --> 01:00:08.320
drilling down on it. But you could you could

01:00:08.320 --> 01:00:10.139
and you could have some speculative fantasy,

01:00:10.219 --> 01:00:13.219
although I haven't seen much of it, you know,

01:00:13.219 --> 01:00:17.079
to be honest. One of my favorite series is The

01:00:17.079 --> 01:00:19.199
Book of the New Sun. So I was happy to hear you

01:00:19.199 --> 01:00:23.039
list it as being prominent for you. How old were

01:00:23.039 --> 01:00:24.699
you when you first read it? And what was your

01:00:24.699 --> 01:00:27.679
experience of getting into it? I mean, I first

01:00:27.679 --> 01:00:29.760
read The Book of the New Sun very recently, like

01:00:29.760 --> 01:00:36.840
in the past year. I would say that, well, The

01:00:36.840 --> 01:00:39.380
Book of the New Sun was recommended very highly

01:00:39.380 --> 01:00:43.699
by pretty much every critic of science fiction

01:00:43.699 --> 01:00:48.400
and fantasy, as well as a couple of my friends.

01:00:50.260 --> 01:00:56.079
I would say that it's not really my type of book.

01:00:56.940 --> 01:01:00.340
I think that the amount that I thought it was

01:01:00.340 --> 01:01:02.920
good was much better than the amount that I enjoyed

01:01:02.920 --> 01:01:07.260
the reading experience. But I did just really

01:01:07.260 --> 01:01:10.969
appreciate the sheer... ambition required to

01:01:10.969 --> 01:01:14.650
produce such a work like i mean sometimes i was

01:01:14.650 --> 01:01:16.550
just reading it and i was just like man i'm kind

01:01:16.550 --> 01:01:19.590
of i'm kind of surprised this uh this ever was

01:01:19.590 --> 01:01:24.190
written at all um or published i mean yeah or

01:01:24.190 --> 01:01:27.110
published um but i you know i mean it was a different

01:01:27.110 --> 01:01:31.710
time um i i think that honestly um Yeah, I did

01:01:31.710 --> 01:01:33.829
actually write an article about Book of the New

01:01:33.829 --> 01:01:39.010
Sun on the Substack, where I was basically contending

01:01:39.010 --> 01:01:42.429
that Book of the New Sun, one of the reasons

01:01:42.429 --> 01:01:45.349
that it's not really remembered as much today

01:01:45.349 --> 01:01:48.849
in the mainstream mainstream, even though it's

01:01:48.849 --> 01:01:51.070
so highly regarded within sci -fi circles and

01:01:51.070 --> 01:01:54.269
fantasy circles, is that the culture is just

01:01:54.269 --> 01:01:58.039
sort of... Moving away from the sort of culture

01:01:58.039 --> 01:01:59.860
in which Book of the New Sun would have been

01:01:59.860 --> 01:02:02.199
the most relevant, I think Book of the New Sun

01:02:02.199 --> 01:02:05.820
even came out a bit late if we're trying to assess

01:02:05.820 --> 01:02:08.840
when it would have had maximum impact. I think

01:02:08.840 --> 01:02:10.960
if Book of the New Sun came out around the time

01:02:10.960 --> 01:02:13.420
that Lord of the Rings was being published and

01:02:13.420 --> 01:02:15.300
Narnia was being published and was just sort

01:02:15.300 --> 01:02:18.599
of embedded in this more scholarly Christian

01:02:18.599 --> 01:02:22.599
culture, I think it really could have had a much

01:02:22.599 --> 01:02:25.449
bigger impact. But I think that... in a world

01:02:25.449 --> 01:02:29.590
where we are just so much like less literate

01:02:29.590 --> 01:02:31.730
about christianity in particular as a culture

01:02:31.730 --> 01:02:34.650
and there's not as many of these like cultural

01:02:34.650 --> 01:02:37.550
anchors that we can reliably point to a lot of

01:02:37.550 --> 01:02:41.210
the book of the new sun just kind of is confusing

01:02:41.210 --> 01:02:45.489
or or unknowable um like i i think that something

01:02:45.489 --> 01:02:48.869
that i think about a lot is that so much of consuming

01:02:48.869 --> 01:02:53.449
media is related to these sorts of um cultural

01:02:53.449 --> 01:02:56.070
anchors that you have as a society at a given

01:02:56.070 --> 01:02:59.630
time and there are many works in the past that

01:02:59.630 --> 01:03:02.289
we can understand on some level we can never

01:03:02.289 --> 01:03:04.369
truly understand the same degree that someone

01:03:04.369 --> 01:03:06.710
reading it in that time would have because there

01:03:06.710 --> 01:03:09.469
are certain cultural anchors that are just implicit

01:03:09.469 --> 01:03:13.429
and unknowable and i think that we can kind of

01:03:13.429 --> 01:03:15.969
see that happening to the book of the new sun

01:03:15.969 --> 01:03:18.900
where i feel like every decade that passes, we

01:03:18.900 --> 01:03:21.099
move further away from, like, the culture that

01:03:21.099 --> 01:03:25.460
would have best understood what this novel was

01:03:25.460 --> 01:03:28.980
trying to say. And you can obviously study these

01:03:28.980 --> 01:03:32.099
things, but I think that, yeah, the further we

01:03:32.099 --> 01:03:35.920
move away from it, the more difficult it is to

01:03:35.920 --> 01:03:39.300
kind of, like, understand it without a serious

01:03:39.300 --> 01:03:42.039
work on the reader's end. So the last thing you

01:03:42.039 --> 01:03:43.960
said there is very important about Book of the

01:03:43.960 --> 01:03:47.980
New Sun. It is a high -effort read. It asks a

01:03:47.980 --> 01:03:51.539
lot of the reader. And not all of Gene Wolfe's

01:03:51.539 --> 01:03:55.039
fiction is like that. He wrote a series of books

01:03:55.039 --> 01:03:59.619
about a Roman soldier in ancient Greece who,

01:03:59.800 --> 01:04:03.619
you know, it's basically memento, but in a, you

01:04:03.619 --> 01:04:07.219
know, antique setting. And so this character,

01:04:07.500 --> 01:04:10.320
his name is Latro, and he forgets. What's happened

01:04:10.320 --> 01:04:13.059
to him. And the book that you're reading is his

01:04:13.059 --> 01:04:15.360
diary that he's writing for himself to remind

01:04:15.360 --> 01:04:18.099
him of who the people around him are and what

01:04:18.099 --> 01:04:19.739
the currents in his life is and what he's supposed

01:04:19.739 --> 01:04:22.219
to be doing. And he can't reread the whole thing

01:04:22.219 --> 01:04:25.500
every day. So it's it's gotten so long. So it's

01:04:25.500 --> 01:04:27.739
it's inconsistent with itself. You can see that

01:04:27.739 --> 01:04:30.019
he's. He's making errors, like he's reporting

01:04:30.019 --> 01:04:32.360
things as fact, which you, the reader, know are

01:04:32.360 --> 01:04:36.039
not true. But it doesn't have the recondite vocabulary

01:04:36.039 --> 01:04:40.019
of Book of the New Sun, and it doesn't hide its

01:04:40.019 --> 01:04:44.599
setting like Book of the New Sun does. I've talked

01:04:44.599 --> 01:04:46.659
to people who said, yeah, I started to read that,

01:04:46.679 --> 01:04:48.480
but I don't like fantasy, so I didn't stick with

01:04:48.480 --> 01:04:52.039
it. And it's like, Book of the New Sun is, I

01:04:52.039 --> 01:04:53.480
don't know if you could call it hard sci -fi.

01:04:53.500 --> 01:04:55.000
It's definitely science fiction, though. I mean,

01:04:55.019 --> 01:04:57.539
it takes place. Possibly millions of years in

01:04:57.539 --> 01:05:00.539
the future. The sun is going out, but it's definitely

01:05:00.539 --> 01:05:02.820
a high -tech setting. It's just most of the people

01:05:02.820 --> 01:05:04.840
don't understand the technology or really have

01:05:04.840 --> 01:05:08.000
access to it. You've mentioned it in the context

01:05:08.000 --> 01:05:12.980
of Christian literature. And Gene Wolfe, he came

01:05:12.980 --> 01:05:15.219
to his Catholicism late in life. He converted

01:05:15.219 --> 01:05:19.099
after he married. And you can read the Book of

01:05:19.099 --> 01:05:22.820
the New Sun and never know that it's Christian

01:05:22.820 --> 01:05:26.670
literature. It's certainly not. You know, it's

01:05:26.670 --> 01:05:29.750
not Narnia. It doesn't have Aslan. You know,

01:05:29.769 --> 01:05:31.949
it doesn't have these these obvious stand ins

01:05:31.949 --> 01:05:34.610
for Christian characters, although almost all

01:05:34.610 --> 01:05:36.329
of the characters that you meet are named after

01:05:36.329 --> 01:05:38.349
Catholic saints, but probably Catholic saints

01:05:38.349 --> 01:05:42.030
you've never heard of. But it's it is a very

01:05:42.030 --> 01:05:45.730
dense and layered book. And I read it the first

01:05:45.730 --> 01:05:48.710
time in the late 90s when I was in my late 20s.

01:05:49.070 --> 01:05:51.429
And, you know, reading it at first, the first

01:05:51.429 --> 01:05:54.960
few pages were kind of off putting. But then

01:05:54.960 --> 01:05:58.659
something clicked. It's like, oh, this is real.

01:05:58.820 --> 01:06:02.739
There's a reality being described here that it's,

01:06:02.739 --> 01:06:05.460
you know, there's a reason for this impenetrability.

01:06:05.599 --> 01:06:07.260
And if I push through it, you know, it's not

01:06:07.260 --> 01:06:10.880
James Joyce, but it's certainly not, you know,

01:06:10.880 --> 01:06:13.639
like Frederick Pohl or Robert Heinlein. I mean,

01:06:13.659 --> 01:06:16.840
it takes some work to get at it. But I read it

01:06:16.840 --> 01:06:18.500
to myself. And then a couple of years later,

01:06:18.579 --> 01:06:21.400
I read it aloud to the woman who would become

01:06:21.400 --> 01:06:24.949
my wife. And then I read it again several years

01:06:24.949 --> 01:06:27.250
after that. And then in the last few years, I've

01:06:27.250 --> 01:06:29.110
listened to the audiobooks because there's some

01:06:29.110 --> 01:06:32.369
excellent productions of it available on Audible.

01:06:32.670 --> 01:06:34.849
And then I'd listen to a podcast series about

01:06:34.849 --> 01:06:37.889
it. I mean, I've delved into it in different

01:06:37.889 --> 01:06:39.849
ways, you know, coming at it from different angles

01:06:39.849 --> 01:06:43.550
over a course of decades. And I think I've gotten

01:06:43.550 --> 01:06:45.750
to the point where I've pretty much gotten out

01:06:45.750 --> 01:06:48.110
of it what there is to get. But you're not going

01:06:48.110 --> 01:06:50.389
to get it on one read for sure. I mean, you'll

01:06:50.389 --> 01:06:53.670
get something. There's a lot there. But you won't

01:06:53.670 --> 01:06:56.730
really unpack the Book of the New Sun on one

01:06:56.730 --> 01:06:59.769
read. And you probably won't unpack it on two

01:06:59.769 --> 01:07:01.929
reads unless there's many years between and some

01:07:01.929 --> 01:07:05.489
additional work done. Not to go off on such a

01:07:05.489 --> 01:07:08.289
tangent in terms of Gene Wolfe and the Book of

01:07:08.289 --> 01:07:10.590
the New Sun. I think the thing I most want to

01:07:10.590 --> 01:07:13.929
get to with it is that when I first read it,

01:07:14.010 --> 01:07:20.250
there was an experiential payoff that... You

01:07:20.250 --> 01:07:22.969
know, I've looked to other books to try to recreate

01:07:22.969 --> 01:07:28.369
and haven't. But, you know, I don't want to bring

01:07:28.369 --> 01:07:30.809
it back to romanticism in any lasting way. But

01:07:30.809 --> 01:07:33.610
if somebody got a particular feeling from a book

01:07:33.610 --> 01:07:36.429
that they, you know, that feeling was rewarding

01:07:36.429 --> 01:07:38.150
and they wanted to get it again from a different

01:07:38.150 --> 01:07:42.360
book, go with God. You know, good luck. I totally

01:07:42.360 --> 01:07:46.000
understand and approve of your quest and I wish

01:07:46.000 --> 01:07:47.780
you the best. I'm probably not going to read

01:07:47.780 --> 01:07:49.659
the books that you're going to read, but I wish

01:07:49.659 --> 01:07:55.079
you the best. Yeah. I think that honestly, I

01:07:55.079 --> 01:07:59.199
would say that G like book of the new song was

01:07:59.199 --> 01:08:01.760
probably less novel to me than it was for you

01:08:01.760 --> 01:08:06.460
in that two of my favorite sci -fi, I guess these

01:08:06.460 --> 01:08:10.090
were both science fantasy works. I would say

01:08:10.090 --> 01:08:14.789
do borrow from it. Like they are similar in some

01:08:14.789 --> 01:08:18.489
sense. What are they? I mean, the biggest example

01:08:18.489 --> 01:08:21.869
is like the Broken Earth trilogy by M .K. Jemisin.

01:08:22.069 --> 01:08:24.210
Have you read this before? I have not read any

01:08:24.210 --> 01:08:26.430
M .K. Jemisin. I've seen her books on the shelf

01:08:26.430 --> 01:08:28.350
of the library, but I have not delved into them.

01:08:28.750 --> 01:08:31.710
Right. So the Broken Earth, it's definitely like

01:08:31.710 --> 01:08:36.609
less ambitious, but it is set in this world where

01:08:36.609 --> 01:08:40.119
people, are like living on the bones of these

01:08:40.119 --> 01:08:42.239
dead civilizations and don't really understand

01:08:42.239 --> 01:08:44.760
the technology that has made their world and

01:08:44.760 --> 01:08:47.479
as you go through the universe of the novel you

01:08:47.479 --> 01:08:49.380
realize the truth of some of these technologies

01:08:49.380 --> 01:08:52.520
um it tells you things a lot more like it's a

01:08:52.520 --> 01:08:55.500
much more accessible novel i mean it's hard to

01:08:55.500 --> 01:08:57.319
not be more accessible than the book of nissan

01:08:57.319 --> 01:09:02.010
i think um but like You know, you do capture

01:09:02.010 --> 01:09:05.689
some of that novel feeling of, like, having the

01:09:05.689 --> 01:09:09.319
feeling of seeing, like, this dead... like this

01:09:09.319 --> 01:09:11.600
dead civilization. And then this more modern,

01:09:11.640 --> 01:09:13.380
like a modern, more primitive one sitting on

01:09:13.380 --> 01:09:15.979
the top of it is just this really novel experience.

01:09:16.180 --> 01:09:17.899
I remember when I first read this story, I was

01:09:17.899 --> 01:09:20.039
just like, wow, this is so cool. I want to see

01:09:20.039 --> 01:09:22.119
how much other dead civ literature there's out

01:09:22.119 --> 01:09:23.920
there. And there's really not that much of it.

01:09:24.000 --> 01:09:26.340
Like I was kind of expecting this to be this

01:09:26.340 --> 01:09:29.479
whole booming genre that's not really there.

01:09:30.140 --> 01:09:33.920
But I would say that the, so I would highly recommend

01:09:33.920 --> 01:09:37.619
that series. But I think that the other, The

01:09:37.619 --> 01:09:40.199
other book that it did remind me of somewhat

01:09:40.199 --> 01:09:45.640
is this very kind of pulpy web serial, like this

01:09:45.640 --> 01:09:48.920
web serialized novel called The Flower That Bloomed

01:09:48.920 --> 01:09:56.560
Nowhere, which is just very like, I don't exactly

01:09:56.560 --> 01:09:59.159
know how to describe the similarity, but it does

01:09:59.159 --> 01:10:01.760
give you the similar sense of being like weirdly

01:10:01.760 --> 01:10:04.840
suspended in like time and space and things happening

01:10:04.840 --> 01:10:09.039
on like these, drastic time scales that are difficult

01:10:09.039 --> 01:10:12.260
for you to comprehend um it's a very interesting

01:10:12.260 --> 01:10:15.180
novel if you can call it that but i would say

01:10:15.180 --> 01:10:17.220
those are those some similar feelings as well

01:10:17.220 --> 01:10:19.979
um and these were just like so resonant for me

01:10:19.979 --> 01:10:22.699
in core to my experience of reading science fiction

01:10:22.699 --> 01:10:24.760
that like yeah i couldn't help but be reminded

01:10:24.760 --> 01:10:27.539
of those things but i think that the component

01:10:27.539 --> 01:10:31.939
that i did get from book of the new sun um was

01:10:31.939 --> 01:10:34.920
actually this um Like the Christian component,

01:10:35.159 --> 01:10:37.960
honestly. I feel like the subtlety with which

01:10:37.960 --> 01:10:40.239
the Book of the New Sun treats Christianity is

01:10:40.239 --> 01:10:42.500
part of what makes it so much harder to read

01:10:42.500 --> 01:10:45.420
in the modern age. If you don't have a pretty

01:10:45.420 --> 01:10:49.279
strong background in not only Christianity, but

01:10:49.279 --> 01:10:52.140
just Christian scholarship, I feel like you're

01:10:52.140 --> 01:10:53.819
going to get a lot less out of it. And it's not

01:10:53.819 --> 01:10:56.590
even necessarily obvious. what you should be

01:10:56.590 --> 01:10:59.829
looking to learn you know it's like you can't

01:10:59.829 --> 01:11:02.210
really just you're not going to learn that much

01:11:02.210 --> 01:11:04.569
cultural information for the sake of just reading

01:11:04.569 --> 01:11:09.130
like one book right um and um i guess if you'll

01:11:09.130 --> 01:11:11.850
allow me um i want to read like this interesting

01:11:11.850 --> 01:11:15.510
thing that gene wolfe wrote about um the uh the

01:11:15.510 --> 01:11:18.109
book of the new sun that sort of gets at like

01:11:18.109 --> 01:11:22.529
what i'm trying to say um he wrote It has been

01:11:22.529 --> 01:11:24.510
remarked thousands of times that Christ died

01:11:24.510 --> 01:11:27.090
under torture. Many of us have read so often

01:11:27.090 --> 01:11:29.109
that he was a humble carpenter that we feel a

01:11:29.109 --> 01:11:31.050
little surge of nausea on seeing the words again.

01:11:31.369 --> 01:11:33.409
But no one ever seems to notice that the instruments

01:11:33.409 --> 01:11:35.829
of torture were wood, nails, and a hammer, that

01:11:35.829 --> 01:11:37.630
the man who built the cross was undoubtedly a

01:11:37.630 --> 01:11:39.909
carpenter too, the man who hammered in the nails

01:11:39.909 --> 01:11:42.409
as much a carpenter as a soldier, as much a carpenter

01:11:42.409 --> 01:11:45.229
as a torturer. Very few seem even to have noticed

01:11:45.229 --> 01:11:47.010
that although Christ was a humble carpenter,

01:11:47.170 --> 01:11:49.770
the only object we are specifically told he made

01:11:50.039 --> 01:11:52.939
was not a table or a chair, but a whip. And if

01:11:52.939 --> 01:11:55.020
Christ knew not only the pain of torture, but

01:11:55.020 --> 01:11:57.180
the pain of being a torturer, as it seems certain

01:11:57.180 --> 01:11:59.840
to me that he did, the dark figure is also capable

01:11:59.840 --> 01:12:05.000
of being a heroic and even a holy figure. And

01:12:05.000 --> 01:12:09.840
like that sort of stuff, like it's just so, like

01:12:09.840 --> 01:12:12.260
it's very interesting, very, very interesting

01:12:12.260 --> 01:12:14.979
and insightful, but so much of it hinges on the

01:12:14.979 --> 01:12:17.579
premise the reader is very familiar with Christianity.

01:12:17.899 --> 01:12:20.890
Like there's this part where, He says, yeah,

01:12:20.970 --> 01:12:22.409
many of us have read so often that he was a humble

01:12:22.409 --> 01:12:24.189
carpenter that we feel a little surge of nausea.

01:12:24.670 --> 01:12:28.210
I think there are plenty of people in Gen Z,

01:12:28.350 --> 01:12:31.010
like in the US, who just like haven't, like aren't

01:12:31.010 --> 01:12:32.649
that familiar with that phrase. But like he's

01:12:32.649 --> 01:12:34.430
asserting that like, oh yeah, you've heard this

01:12:34.430 --> 01:12:36.550
phrase so much, you must be tired of it. And

01:12:36.550 --> 01:12:38.069
a lot of things in the book of the Nissan are

01:12:38.069 --> 01:12:40.930
like that, I think. Like it assumes a level of

01:12:40.930 --> 01:12:43.369
engagement with Christianity from the reader

01:12:43.369 --> 01:12:45.729
that is becoming increasingly rare. Have you

01:12:45.729 --> 01:12:49.159
seen The Last Temptation of Christ? I have not

01:12:49.159 --> 01:12:50.979
seen The Last Impatient Christ. For those who

01:12:50.979 --> 01:12:52.880
don't remember, it's a film from the 80s. It's

01:12:52.880 --> 01:12:55.880
by Martin Scorsese. Gosh, who played the Green

01:12:55.880 --> 01:12:58.520
Goblin? I just got a blanket on this guy's name.

01:12:58.659 --> 01:13:00.119
He was in The Lighthouse. I mean, he's been in

01:13:00.119 --> 01:13:01.560
a million things. Willem Dafoe. Yeah, Willem

01:13:01.560 --> 01:13:04.600
Dafoe plays Christ. And in the very beginning

01:13:04.600 --> 01:13:07.500
of the film, he is working on a cross for the

01:13:07.500 --> 01:13:10.680
Romans. And Judas, played by Harvey Keitel, comes

01:13:10.680 --> 01:13:13.359
to tell him, you know, why are you making crosses

01:13:13.359 --> 01:13:17.789
for the Romans? You're a disgrace! The Romans

01:13:17.789 --> 01:13:19.750
can't find anybody to make crosses except for

01:13:19.750 --> 01:13:23.970
you. You do it. You're worse than them. You're

01:13:23.970 --> 01:13:28.430
a Jew killing Jews. You're a coward. This is,

01:13:28.430 --> 01:13:31.710
you know, the idea that Christ built implements

01:13:31.710 --> 01:13:34.770
of torture and was later, you know, executed

01:13:34.770 --> 01:13:38.010
using them is not something that is unique to

01:13:38.010 --> 01:13:41.409
Wolf. But as you say, yeah, it is an idea that

01:13:41.409 --> 01:13:44.970
is not current in contemporary, you know, pop.

01:13:46.079 --> 01:13:49.220
culture or literary fiction that you know people

01:13:49.220 --> 01:13:52.140
under say the age of 35 would be familiar with

01:13:52.140 --> 01:13:56.300
yeah and i think that it's not just about the

01:13:56.300 --> 01:13:58.640
decline of christianity but the particular way

01:13:58.640 --> 01:14:00.859
in which christianity has declined like i think

01:14:00.859 --> 01:14:03.619
that you know in the in the mid like in the mid

01:14:03.619 --> 01:14:06.439
20th century, there was just a lot of brain drain

01:14:06.439 --> 01:14:08.779
out of Christianity. You know, like a lot of

01:14:08.779 --> 01:14:11.979
the people who were, who might've been like theologians

01:14:11.979 --> 01:14:15.239
or religious scholars in like a past era were,

01:14:15.300 --> 01:14:17.260
you know, drifting more towards like the sciences.

01:14:17.619 --> 01:14:20.920
And so I feel like the way in which Christianity

01:14:20.920 --> 01:14:23.380
declined was, was most pronounced among like,

01:14:23.500 --> 01:14:27.140
you know, the. like the scholars and the elite

01:14:27.140 --> 01:14:30.140
and i think this really affected the perception

01:14:30.140 --> 01:14:32.659
of christianity for for people like myself who

01:14:32.659 --> 01:14:35.420
are older who have like only really who like

01:14:35.420 --> 01:14:38.619
primarily engaged with christianity and like

01:14:38.619 --> 01:14:42.159
it's sort of like less scholarly more like rural

01:14:42.159 --> 01:14:45.600
based form which is just like a lot less intellectually

01:14:45.600 --> 01:14:48.930
compelling and i think that um honestly i think

01:14:48.930 --> 01:14:50.829
this is starting to change a bit like i do think

01:14:50.829 --> 01:14:53.989
you're starting to see a little bit of like you

01:14:53.989 --> 01:14:56.489
know intellectually inclined young people turning

01:14:56.489 --> 01:14:59.149
towards christianity at the grassroots but i

01:14:59.149 --> 01:15:02.489
think you know even now i think that the mainstream

01:15:02.489 --> 01:15:07.670
impression of christianity in um in america is

01:15:07.670 --> 01:15:10.670
just the sort of like you know brain -drained,

01:15:10.670 --> 01:15:12.949
less intellectually vital one, because it's just

01:15:12.949 --> 01:15:15.710
been so long since we were in the era of Tolkien

01:15:15.710 --> 01:15:19.270
and C .S. Lewis and G .K. Chesterton. Have you

01:15:19.270 --> 01:15:22.409
read any E .N .M. Banks? I've read The Algebraist

01:15:22.409 --> 01:15:25.970
only. Oh, that's a good one, I have to say. The

01:15:25.970 --> 01:15:29.029
Algebraist, it's not one of his culture novels,

01:15:29.210 --> 01:15:31.670
but it takes place in the same setting, pretty

01:15:31.670 --> 01:15:34.310
much. At one point, there's a reference to different

01:15:34.310 --> 01:15:38.399
types of... you know, social and political forms.

01:15:38.560 --> 01:15:42.659
And he mentions cultures, plural. But yeah, it

01:15:42.659 --> 01:15:46.460
is a, you know, it is space opera. Main character

01:15:46.460 --> 01:15:49.380
is, he goes to a lot of different places, has

01:15:49.380 --> 01:15:51.579
a lot of very, you know, strange experiences,

01:15:51.659 --> 01:15:55.079
exotic experiences with aliens. Like, you know,

01:15:55.079 --> 01:15:57.060
some of the aliens in the algebraist live inside

01:15:57.060 --> 01:16:01.100
of gas giants like Jupiter. And he wears like

01:16:01.100 --> 01:16:05.140
a space suit that is also a spaceship. You know,

01:16:05.159 --> 01:16:07.079
that he goes down and it's like a one, it is

01:16:07.079 --> 01:16:08.859
like an Iron Man soup. It's sort of like manta

01:16:08.859 --> 01:16:11.180
ray -ish. And he spends a lot of time inside

01:16:11.180 --> 01:16:13.939
a gas giant interacting with these, what do they

01:16:13.939 --> 01:16:17.899
call them? Delvers? What were the gas giant?

01:16:18.000 --> 01:16:22.119
Oh, dwellers. Yeah, the dwellers. Yes. But he's

01:16:22.119 --> 01:16:25.159
written a whole series called the Culture Series,

01:16:25.239 --> 01:16:29.100
which is basically, you know, the notion of fully

01:16:29.100 --> 01:16:35.500
automated luxury communism. is embodied in the

01:16:35.500 --> 01:16:39.739
culture series. Like the culture is this enormous,

01:16:39.899 --> 01:16:43.920
like trillions of citizens. It's run by minds,

01:16:43.979 --> 01:16:45.880
which is to say artificial intelligences, which

01:16:45.880 --> 01:16:49.520
are wholly benevolent to the culture citizens,

01:16:49.880 --> 01:16:54.119
but which are pretty Machiavellian and morally

01:16:54.119 --> 01:16:57.180
gray when it comes to dealing with outside, you

01:16:57.180 --> 01:17:01.310
know, polities and forces. And most of the books

01:17:01.310 --> 01:17:04.329
involve their version of the CIA, which they

01:17:04.329 --> 01:17:07.729
call special circumstances and special circumstances.

01:17:07.729 --> 01:17:10.550
People get up to some very, you know, unculture

01:17:10.550 --> 01:17:14.130
like activities, but there is material abundance.

01:17:14.989 --> 01:17:19.850
There is maximum freedom, minimal rules, absolute.

01:17:21.369 --> 01:17:24.430
total gender equality. Culture citizens can change

01:17:24.430 --> 01:17:27.310
gender at will. It takes a few months, but there's

01:17:27.310 --> 01:17:29.329
no operation. It's not like it's something being

01:17:29.329 --> 01:17:32.350
done to you. You just decide and your body transitions

01:17:32.350 --> 01:17:35.090
over to the other sex for as long as you care

01:17:35.090 --> 01:17:38.090
to. And so, you know, culture citizens can both

01:17:38.090 --> 01:17:41.510
father and mother children. They probably could

01:17:41.510 --> 01:17:44.210
clone themselves. I mean, the options for how

01:17:44.210 --> 01:17:46.970
you want to live your life are, you know, they're

01:17:46.970 --> 01:17:52.189
huge. It's a myriad of options. So he's extremely

01:17:52.189 --> 01:17:55.850
left and progressive, but he was writing in the

01:17:55.850 --> 01:18:00.989
80s and the 90s before the current era of totalitarian

01:18:00.989 --> 01:18:05.409
progressivism, where there's nothing obnoxious

01:18:05.409 --> 01:18:09.649
about his presentation of a very far left worldview.

01:18:09.970 --> 01:18:14.829
Whereas if somebody tried to write this from

01:18:14.829 --> 01:18:17.729
a left or progressive perspective for the left,

01:18:17.789 --> 01:18:20.720
for a left audience. it would be very heavy handed

01:18:20.720 --> 01:18:22.399
today. And just, you know, from my perspective,

01:18:22.520 --> 01:18:26.279
unreadable. But even though I'm not progressive

01:18:26.279 --> 01:18:29.199
and I'm not on the political left, I still absolutely

01:18:29.199 --> 01:18:32.579
love the culture novels and everything really

01:18:32.579 --> 01:18:34.460
that I've read from Iain M. Banks, even though

01:18:34.460 --> 01:18:37.640
his politics are not my politics. So it seems

01:18:37.640 --> 01:18:42.579
like there's a way of engaging politically in

01:18:42.579 --> 01:18:45.140
a very substantial way that Iain M. Banks had

01:18:45.140 --> 01:18:48.329
mastered, which is... either beyond the capabilities

01:18:48.329 --> 01:18:51.050
or just beyond the desires of the current crop

01:18:51.050 --> 01:18:54.649
of writers and i guess publishers as well i i

01:18:54.649 --> 01:18:57.689
think i think really it's kind of beyond beyond

01:18:57.689 --> 01:19:00.069
the crop of desires i think that's that's really

01:19:00.069 --> 01:19:03.229
more of the the problem um like i think that

01:19:03.229 --> 01:19:06.850
if you write a novel like that is countercultural

01:19:06.850 --> 01:19:09.739
you know like the culture was at the time you

01:19:09.739 --> 01:19:12.819
can't afford to be didactic. No one would read

01:19:12.819 --> 01:19:16.359
it. I actually have a post on this very subject.

01:19:16.560 --> 01:19:19.800
It was one of the more recent posts about The

01:19:19.800 --> 01:19:22.399
Broken Earth, actually, by N .K. Jemisin. And

01:19:22.399 --> 01:19:26.340
it was talking about how this is actually a pretty

01:19:26.340 --> 01:19:30.020
good example of someone using a novel series

01:19:30.020 --> 01:19:33.180
as a vehicle for progressive ideology without

01:19:33.180 --> 01:19:39.420
being overly didactic. But I think that Since

01:19:39.420 --> 01:19:43.079
then, I don't think N .K. Jemisin continued to

01:19:43.079 --> 01:19:45.779
write in that direction, really. And I think

01:19:45.779 --> 01:19:47.619
it's partially because I don't think that's what

01:19:47.619 --> 01:19:51.199
audiences want. Like, I don't really think that,

01:19:51.199 --> 01:19:54.260
like, I mean, like, honestly, like, a lot of

01:19:54.260 --> 01:19:57.960
people, like, and I'm not even trying to knock

01:19:57.960 --> 01:19:59.739
this necessarily, but I think a lot of people

01:19:59.739 --> 01:20:03.399
try to read. novels for escapism and catharsis

01:20:03.399 --> 01:20:05.600
and a lot of people just want their current views

01:20:05.600 --> 01:20:07.439
to just be validated in a very heavy -handed

01:20:07.439 --> 01:20:10.180
way like a lot of people really enjoyed watching

01:20:10.180 --> 01:20:13.319
mickey 17 because it kind of just gave very like

01:20:13.319 --> 01:20:16.479
uncomplicated voice to their concerns and so

01:20:16.479 --> 01:20:19.579
i think that in order for that type of style

01:20:19.579 --> 01:20:22.720
to like in order for that um for people to write

01:20:22.720 --> 01:20:25.460
in this way i think that the novel either needs

01:20:25.460 --> 01:20:28.819
to be less of the mainstream culture Or there

01:20:28.819 --> 01:20:30.600
needs to be an appetite for engaging with stuff

01:20:30.600 --> 01:20:33.500
like that. And I think that, yeah, I think that

01:20:33.500 --> 01:20:36.539
there isn't really a ton of appetite for nuance

01:20:36.539 --> 01:20:40.039
in this way. I think it's less that authors are

01:20:40.039 --> 01:20:41.739
unable to do so, and it's more like they don't

01:20:41.739 --> 01:20:43.939
really have an incentive to. Do you know the

01:20:43.939 --> 01:20:48.420
history of how E &M Banks got published? I do

01:20:48.420 --> 01:20:50.260
not, actually. That's pretty funny. He wanted

01:20:50.260 --> 01:20:53.180
to write science fiction, and he didn't have

01:20:53.180 --> 01:20:55.899
any luck breaking into science fiction, so he

01:20:55.899 --> 01:20:59.090
decided to write literary fiction. And he wrote

01:20:59.090 --> 01:21:01.449
a novel called The Wasp Factory, which is not

01:21:01.449 --> 01:21:05.170
science fiction. And it did very well. And he

01:21:05.170 --> 01:21:08.710
used his newfound success and celebrity as a

01:21:08.710 --> 01:21:11.210
literary author to write science fiction. And

01:21:11.210 --> 01:21:14.250
he didn't write, you know, ponderous, weighty,

01:21:14.250 --> 01:21:17.050
speculative fiction. He wrote fun space opera.

01:21:17.170 --> 01:21:21.270
But, you know, his culture books. Maybe by now

01:21:21.270 --> 01:21:23.630
they've outsold his literary works, but when

01:21:23.630 --> 01:21:26.069
he was writing them, he could have been making

01:21:26.069 --> 01:21:28.090
a lot more money and selling a lot more books,

01:21:28.170 --> 01:21:31.449
writing stuff for the New York Times bestseller

01:21:31.449 --> 01:21:36.949
list. And he was taking a hit in terms of his

01:21:36.949 --> 01:21:40.350
earning potential by writing space opera, but

01:21:40.350 --> 01:21:44.050
it's what he loved. yeah that's pretty funny

01:21:44.050 --> 01:21:47.149
i i certainly respect that well we are pretty

01:21:47.149 --> 01:21:49.850
near the end here so let me just uh throw it

01:21:49.850 --> 01:21:51.489
open to you is there anything that you wanted

01:21:51.489 --> 01:21:53.829
to talk about or any subject that you wanted

01:21:53.829 --> 01:21:55.550
to touch on that we haven't gotten around to

01:21:55.550 --> 01:21:59.850
right um yeah so thanks for having me on i guess

01:21:59.850 --> 01:22:03.010
like a kind of theme that we've been dancing

01:22:03.010 --> 01:22:06.989
around is that i i really think that the current

01:22:06.989 --> 01:22:10.050
vibe shift against wokeness or whatever you want

01:22:10.050 --> 01:22:16.050
to call it, has paradoxically led to a much greater

01:22:16.050 --> 01:22:20.250
appetite for genuine diversity. I think that

01:22:20.250 --> 01:22:24.750
a lot of media that's being pushed today is like

01:22:24.750 --> 01:22:29.310
fake diversity. You know, like it's diverse in

01:22:29.310 --> 01:22:32.189
the sense that, you know, people may be like.

01:22:32.729 --> 01:22:35.390
eating different types of food or something like

01:22:35.390 --> 01:22:37.289
that. Like, you know, modern day authors love

01:22:37.289 --> 01:22:39.090
to talk about different kinds of like ethnic

01:22:39.090 --> 01:22:44.149
food, but it doesn't actually involve like any

01:22:44.149 --> 01:22:47.729
real sort of like intellectual diversity. And

01:22:47.729 --> 01:22:50.329
I think that like, you know, the vast majority

01:22:50.329 --> 01:22:54.369
of stuff that's published today is the ideology

01:22:54.369 --> 01:22:57.010
of people who do like MFA programs at Ivy league

01:22:57.010 --> 01:22:58.890
schools. Like that, that is just the worldview

01:22:58.890 --> 01:23:02.180
that happens and it's not really shared by. the

01:23:02.180 --> 01:23:05.619
vast majority of the culture. And so when you

01:23:05.619 --> 01:23:07.939
read books like the book of the new song, it

01:23:07.939 --> 01:23:10.060
really gets you thinking about like, wow, what

01:23:10.060 --> 01:23:12.659
would a really vital literary landscape look

01:23:12.659 --> 01:23:16.260
like where you have this true intellectual diversity,

01:23:16.300 --> 01:23:18.439
like people that really just have a totally different

01:23:18.439 --> 01:23:20.539
worldview for how the thing should be and how

01:23:20.539 --> 01:23:24.439
the world works. I think that is actually what

01:23:24.439 --> 01:23:27.829
makes Sishun Liu. the, uh, the Chinese author.

01:23:27.909 --> 01:23:29.869
So important. Have you, have you read Sishinli

01:23:29.869 --> 01:23:32.569
before? Three body problem? I, I watched both

01:23:32.569 --> 01:23:36.369
the Chinese and the Netflix adaptations, you

01:23:36.369 --> 01:23:38.090
know, TV adaptations of it, but I've not read

01:23:38.090 --> 01:23:41.380
the original novels. I would highly recommend

01:23:41.380 --> 01:23:43.560
the Three -Body Problem series, in particular

01:23:43.560 --> 01:23:48.500
the last book. It's very heady and hard sci -fi.

01:23:49.079 --> 01:23:51.140
But I think that another thing to appreciate

01:23:51.140 --> 01:23:55.939
about it is that it is truly from a different

01:23:55.939 --> 01:23:58.199
culture. It was published originally in Chinese,

01:23:58.279 --> 01:24:00.880
and it was just not written for American audiences.

01:24:01.260 --> 01:24:04.859
And you can tell. There are just certain things

01:24:04.859 --> 01:24:08.220
and assumptions that there may be, like, hard

01:24:08.220 --> 01:24:10.520
to put your finger on exactly but you read the

01:24:10.520 --> 01:24:12.460
book and you're just like yeah i can tell this

01:24:12.460 --> 01:24:15.140
came from someone who has like a totally a totally

01:24:15.140 --> 01:24:17.479
different non -western worldview and that is

01:24:17.479 --> 01:24:19.859
quite interesting you know it's it's much more

01:24:19.859 --> 01:24:22.560
genuine diversity than like you know a chinese

01:24:22.560 --> 01:24:24.659
american who was raised in the suburbs and did

01:24:24.659 --> 01:24:28.359
an mfa at yale you know um and so i think that

01:24:28.359 --> 01:24:31.699
um like i guess as an example of what i'm talking

01:24:31.699 --> 01:24:34.239
about um there's a there's a pretty strong focus

01:24:34.239 --> 01:24:38.460
on this idea of like humanity's oneness, you

01:24:38.460 --> 01:24:41.479
know, like the importance of not having humanity

01:24:41.479 --> 01:24:45.119
be split up into these separate parts. And I

01:24:45.119 --> 01:24:47.739
think this is like a pretty integral component

01:24:47.739 --> 01:24:52.479
of like the Chinese worldview and like how China

01:24:52.479 --> 01:24:54.760
is to be and how civilization is to be. This

01:24:54.760 --> 01:24:57.920
is really difficult to articulate to like a Westerner.

01:24:57.939 --> 01:25:00.680
It's something that I still haven't quite. wrapped

01:25:00.680 --> 01:25:02.760
my head around and i think this is also central

01:25:02.760 --> 01:25:05.579
to the taiwan question and stuff like that um

01:25:05.579 --> 01:25:08.659
but it's just like it was something that i don't

01:25:08.659 --> 01:25:10.579
think i understood quite well enough to articulate

01:25:10.579 --> 01:25:12.840
to someone but i understood it well enough to

01:25:12.840 --> 01:25:15.539
be like okay this is why this particular focus

01:25:15.539 --> 01:25:19.399
is there um so anyway i think that i i really

01:25:19.399 --> 01:25:22.460
hope that we see like you know a greater like

01:25:22.460 --> 01:25:25.920
a proliferation of intellectual diversity in

01:25:25.920 --> 01:25:28.670
in media which i don't know i could go either

01:25:28.670 --> 01:25:30.569
way on whether i expected this to happen i'm

01:25:30.569 --> 01:25:32.649
not particularly optimistic but i think it could

01:25:32.649 --> 01:25:36.449
happen um and yeah i think that with greater

01:25:36.449 --> 01:25:39.050
intellectual diversity like better science fiction

01:25:39.050 --> 01:25:42.069
will follow so here's a hopeful note on which

01:25:42.069 --> 01:25:48.050
to end um andy weir wrote the martian and it's

01:25:48.050 --> 01:25:51.670
excellent but it's it's definitely very you know

01:25:51.670 --> 01:25:55.909
a nerdy white guy uh science fiction as as physics

01:25:55.909 --> 01:26:00.069
problem solving exercise and no publisher would

01:26:00.069 --> 01:26:03.149
touch it. So he self -published on Amazon, sold

01:26:03.149 --> 01:26:05.090
a bunch of copies and publishers decided, you

01:26:05.090 --> 01:26:06.829
know what, we'd like to make money from this

01:26:06.829 --> 01:26:08.630
thing, which is already selling. So let's, let's

01:26:08.630 --> 01:26:11.409
buy it. And it, you know, got made into a film

01:26:11.409 --> 01:26:14.810
directed by Ridley Scott. So it happens, you

01:26:14.810 --> 01:26:17.430
know, you can call it a Horatio Alger story,

01:26:17.649 --> 01:26:20.409
which is the exception, which, you know, makes

01:26:20.409 --> 01:26:23.210
the unpalatable rule acceptable to the hopeful,

01:26:23.289 --> 01:26:26.039
but you know, it is possible. it is possible

01:26:26.039 --> 01:26:27.840
for good science fiction to get through the filters

01:26:27.840 --> 01:26:32.020
yeah for sure and like honestly like i think

01:26:32.020 --> 01:26:35.420
that the points that are being brought up right

01:26:35.420 --> 01:26:39.020
now are just like they would have been most salient

01:26:39.020 --> 01:26:41.859
and urgent like 10 years ago i think you know

01:26:41.859 --> 01:26:43.960
there's like a process by which these things

01:26:43.960 --> 01:26:47.359
trickle down and i think now like the direction

01:26:47.359 --> 01:26:50.260
of these things has already kind of shifted you

01:26:50.260 --> 01:26:54.810
know and so i think that um I feel like this

01:26:54.810 --> 01:26:57.210
is something that I don't feel particularly like,

01:26:57.229 --> 01:27:00.630
I guess, sort of like, um, gerotanical ideology

01:27:00.630 --> 01:27:04.010
in publishing. It's like something that I'm not

01:27:04.010 --> 01:27:06.829
as pressed about because I just feel like things

01:27:06.829 --> 01:27:09.329
are already moving with the culture that it's

01:27:09.329 --> 01:27:11.350
just not going to be as salient as it once was.

01:27:11.510 --> 01:27:14.130
And I also think that market forces are going

01:27:14.130 --> 01:27:16.810
to shape things in a similar way. Like I ultimately

01:27:16.810 --> 01:27:19.500
think that market forces. basically determine

01:27:19.500 --> 01:27:21.600
all of the actions of these conglomerates like

01:27:21.600 --> 01:27:23.880
almost all of them and so i think that because

01:27:23.880 --> 01:27:26.699
we're seeing this vibe shift i don't really expect

01:27:26.699 --> 01:27:29.600
this to be like nearly as much of a concern as

01:27:29.600 --> 01:27:32.659
it was in in the past like you know five or ten

01:27:32.659 --> 01:27:34.520
years or so although i could certainly be surprised

01:27:34.520 --> 01:27:37.000
i could certainly be surprised so we'll have

01:27:37.000 --> 01:27:39.319
to see what happens the personnel in publishing

01:27:39.319 --> 01:27:42.500
aren't going to shift as rapidly as you know

01:27:42.500 --> 01:27:45.260
the vibes of the culture in general uh they're

01:27:45.550 --> 01:27:46.970
They're kind of like the Supreme Court. They're

01:27:46.970 --> 01:27:49.010
they're an ideological anchor that is going to

01:27:49.010 --> 01:27:51.829
lag. Well, I mean, they could be fired by the

01:27:51.829 --> 01:27:54.550
like, you know, the Wall Street CEOs and said

01:27:54.550 --> 01:27:58.670
giant megacorps. Yeah, but, you know, it is it

01:27:58.670 --> 01:28:02.949
is like BlackRock and other private equity and

01:28:02.949 --> 01:28:06.050
financial institutions that are allowing companies

01:28:06.050 --> 01:28:09.670
like Disney to lose money hand over fist year

01:28:09.670 --> 01:28:12.430
after year in pursuit of ideological purity.

01:28:13.109 --> 01:28:17.989
So, I mean, the. The progressive orthodoxy has

01:28:17.989 --> 01:28:20.729
significant financial backing, which is it is

01:28:20.729 --> 01:28:24.449
not as susceptible to supply and demand and profit

01:28:24.449 --> 01:28:27.170
as you might think in a society like ours, which

01:28:27.170 --> 01:28:31.109
is so aggressively capitalistic. Right, right.

01:28:31.149 --> 01:28:33.350
I mean, yeah, I certainly think that like, you

01:28:33.350 --> 01:28:36.449
know, these sorts of the sort of the media will

01:28:36.449 --> 01:28:39.869
continue to come out. But I think that, you know,

01:28:39.869 --> 01:28:42.699
I think the market will respond. to like an appetite

01:28:42.699 --> 01:28:45.359
for these other things. I mean, I just, I've

01:28:45.359 --> 01:28:47.720
been pretty struck by just how quickly things

01:28:47.720 --> 01:28:49.720
have shifted, at least it's seeming to me, just

01:28:49.720 --> 01:28:53.899
like, you know, from my, just like anecdotally

01:28:53.899 --> 01:28:56.979
from being like on the ground, I guess, how people's

01:28:56.979 --> 01:29:00.000
views have changed, how in particular, how young

01:29:00.000 --> 01:29:03.060
people's views have changed. So I don't know.

01:29:03.100 --> 01:29:06.680
I think it's hard to say what will come next,

01:29:06.720 --> 01:29:11.199
but I think that the flashpoints in like, Yeah,

01:29:11.220 --> 01:29:13.460
the culture war, I suppose, are definitely going

01:29:13.460 --> 01:29:16.140
to be much different in the near future. Oh,

01:29:16.140 --> 01:29:20.199
yeah. Absolutely. Well, Kevin, your Substack

01:29:20.199 --> 01:29:22.680
and podcast again are what? SynthesizedSunsets

01:29:22.680 --> 01:29:25.279
.substack .com. All right. Well, thank you very

01:29:25.279 --> 01:29:27.199
much. It's good talking to you. Yeah, for sure.

01:29:31.220 --> 01:29:34.579
All right. That was Kevin of the Synthesized

01:29:34.579 --> 01:29:39.060
Sunsets. Magazine, Substack, and Podcast. And

01:29:39.060 --> 01:29:41.520
reading from the description of the Substack,

01:29:41.520 --> 01:29:44.539
it says, Synthesize Sunsets is a Seattle mag

01:29:44.539 --> 01:29:47.399
about speculative fiction and the future of pop.

01:29:47.880 --> 01:29:50.399
Every quarter will bring a new season of the

01:29:50.399 --> 01:29:52.520
magazine, which will feature a print edition

01:29:52.520 --> 01:29:55.720
and an aesthetic theme to guide the articles

01:29:55.720 --> 01:29:59.460
for that season. Speculative fiction is meant

01:29:59.460 --> 01:30:02.539
in the broadest possible sense. Anything involving

01:30:02.539 --> 01:30:05.100
future visions or distant worlds is fair game.

01:30:05.460 --> 01:30:08.359
Each issue will cover a wide range of media,

01:30:08.479 --> 01:30:10.859
including literature, film, and web fiction.

01:30:11.079 --> 01:30:13.619
In addition to critical content, we will also

01:30:13.619 --> 01:30:16.260
publish short fiction written by Seattle writers.

01:30:16.619 --> 01:30:19.359
If you would like to submit a piece, please send

01:30:19.359 --> 01:30:22.479
an email to synthesizesunsets at substack .com

01:30:22.479 --> 01:30:26.329
with the subject line, Fiction Submission. Anyway,

01:30:26.350 --> 01:30:28.630
it goes on, but rather than read it to you, I

01:30:28.630 --> 01:30:31.550
will just direct you to that sub stack. If you

01:30:31.550 --> 01:30:33.890
are listening to this via sub stack, well, then

01:30:33.890 --> 01:30:36.189
it'll be very easy to find. But if not, you're

01:30:36.189 --> 01:30:38.510
going to have to do some typing. Again, it is

01:30:38.510 --> 01:30:42.699
synthesized sunsets. And of course, we were talking

01:30:42.699 --> 01:30:45.399
about science fiction, and I should, if I know

01:30:45.399 --> 01:30:47.680
what's good for me at every opportunity, remind

01:30:47.680 --> 01:30:49.319
people that I have written a science fiction

01:30:49.319 --> 01:30:51.579
novel. It is called Fear and Loathing in the

01:30:51.579 --> 01:30:55.119
Kuiper Belt. Gen X science fiction. It is available

01:30:55.119 --> 01:30:58.500
exclusively from Amazon, either as a Kindle or

01:30:58.500 --> 01:31:02.899
as a paperback. And to thank somebody, I don't

01:31:02.899 --> 01:31:04.420
know who it is. They identify themselves only

01:31:04.420 --> 01:31:06.520
as Amazon customer. I'm going to read a five

01:31:06.520 --> 01:31:09.619
star review of the book. Amazon customer writes

01:31:09.619 --> 01:31:12.859
fiercely inventive. Uninhibited hard sci -fi

01:31:12.859 --> 01:31:16.159
that destroys old limits. Really great book.

01:31:16.359 --> 01:31:18.859
I lost a lot of sleep staying up late to binge

01:31:18.859 --> 01:31:21.020
on this. First part of the book had riveting

01:31:21.020 --> 01:31:23.640
and uninhibited world building. What would life

01:31:23.640 --> 01:31:26.119
on a long -term spaceship actually be like? And

01:31:26.119 --> 01:31:28.319
how would behavioral and sexual mores develop

01:31:28.319 --> 01:31:30.800
to fit the isolated community of a starship?

01:31:31.130 --> 01:31:34.310
How might AI change human society, and how might

01:31:34.310 --> 01:31:37.310
humanity split into different subspecies? The

01:31:37.310 --> 01:31:39.329
main characters are well -developed and thankfully

01:31:39.329 --> 01:31:42.890
not repeats of familiar tropes. But this book

01:31:42.890 --> 01:31:45.149
really kicks in when the ship reaches its destination

01:31:45.149 --> 01:31:48.890
and new, ancient life is discovered and interacted

01:31:48.890 --> 01:31:51.890
with. Brilliant writing. I'm eager for a follow

01:31:51.890 --> 01:31:54.430
-up. Well, I'm writing a follow -up, but it is

01:31:54.430 --> 01:31:58.210
a prequel rather than a sequel. I have no promised

01:31:58.210 --> 01:32:01.770
date for it, but... I am working on it consistently.

01:32:02.590 --> 01:32:05.329
All right, that is all. I would direct you to

01:32:05.329 --> 01:32:07.869
my substack. That is where the bulk of my effort

01:32:07.869 --> 01:32:10.149
goes these days that isn't fiction writing. The

01:32:10.149 --> 01:32:12.229
fiction writing is happening behind the curtain,

01:32:12.310 --> 01:32:17.109
as it were, only to be revealed when it is ready

01:32:17.109 --> 01:32:21.229
for consumption in large chunks. All right, I

01:32:21.229 --> 01:32:23.590
will talk to you again soon. Stay well.