1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,320 KMO Show episode number 25 December 1st 2024. 2 00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:23,360 Hey everybody, KMO here and what I have for you today is a conversation with my friend Kevin Lynn. 3 00:00:23,920 --> 00:00:29,680 He's somebody I know from my peak oil days. In fact, I first met him when he invited me to come 4 00:00:29,680 --> 00:00:33,520 down to Lancaster, Pennsylvania where he lives where he was putting on an event where he had 5 00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:41,680 invited John Michael Greer, James Howard Kunstler, Dimitri Orlov, Chris Martinson, who else? Some 6 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:48,560 other peak oil people to basically put on an event and I got to interview all those guys in a room. 7 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:53,600 There's a video where I asked them about the potential for shifting from an internal combustion 8 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:58,720 private ownership based model of transportation to one where there are fleets of autonomous 9 00:00:58,720 --> 00:01:05,760 electric vehicles and none of them were bullish on that prospect. It's a fun video. I think it's 10 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:10,320 from 2016 which is when I first met Kevin Lin face to face. He'd been listening to my podcast, 11 00:01:10,320 --> 00:01:15,040 the C-Realm podcast, for I don't know how long but long enough to know that I was associated 12 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:19,760 with that scene and if he was putting on an event he'd like to have me there. But since then we've 13 00:01:19,760 --> 00:01:24,160 done quite a bit of work together and in fact it was Kevin's organization that paid me to develop 14 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:29,360 the GEBB webcomic and I got to do some traveling in association with that. I went to the EarthX 15 00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:39,040 convention in Dallas, Texas twice and once out to Los Angeles for Politicon 2019. So Kevin was a big 16 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:44,080 Trump supporter and here is my conversation with him, my first recorded conversation with him 17 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:53,440 after the 2024 election. And we are rolling KMO. All right, hey Kevin, it is good to see you. 18 00:01:53,440 --> 00:02:00,400 KMO, always a pleasure. It's been too long. How are you doing? I've been sick. I just took a bunch 19 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:05,680 of cough medicines so hopefully that'll kick in and I won't be coughing a lot. Ah okay, okay. 20 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:12,080 If I do cough. You sound a little nasally. Oh yeah. There's the first cough. Okay. 21 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:20,480 But as you know I am excited about recent developments in artificial intelligence 22 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:28,640 and I have invited my favorite chat bot, Claude of Anthropic AI, who knows about you. 23 00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:33,520 Yeah in fact I appreciate you because you're the one who introduced me to Claude and I 24 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:41,680 just kind of use it for grammar, things like that. I haven't gotten as involved in it as you have. 25 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:49,680 Kind of like using a like an AK-47 to prop the door open. Yeah pretty much. Yeah exactly. 26 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:56,160 It can do that. Well anyway, I invited Claude to introduce our conversation here and to throw out 27 00:02:56,160 --> 00:03:03,760 the first question so I'm going to read Claude's suggestion. Claude writes, welcome to the KMO show. 28 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:10,400 Today's guest is Kevin Lin, a self-described lapsed Republican, unrepentant paroist, failed green, 29 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:16,320 frustrated Democrat, and now independent. KMO and Kevin first connected through the peak oil 30 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:21,440 community where they explored questions of societal complexity and system adaptation. 31 00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:27,040 Kevin brings a unique perspective shaped by his varied career from army officer serving in the US, 32 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:33,040 Europe, and Asia to senior positions at major accounting firms to his current role as executive 33 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:39,440 director of the Institute for Sound Public Policy. Both Kevin and KMO follow the work of Rudyard 34 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:45,200 Lynch whose analysis of historical crisis patterns suggests we're entering a period of 35 00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:52,880 institutional stress more akin to the 30 years war than a total war scenario. The 2024 election 36 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:58,080 has produced some remarkable outcomes. Trump's decisive victory, the establishment's failed 37 00:03:58,080 --> 00:04:03,440 attempts to prevent it, and the emergence of a new political coalition crossing traditional 38 00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:11,120 ideological lines. Yet Lynch's framework suggests this might represent not a resolution but a stage 39 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:16,640 in a longer process of system reorganization. Kevin, given your experience organizing political 40 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:21,840 groups across multiple states and parties, what do you make of these new coalitions forming around 41 00:04:21,840 --> 00:04:27,120 Trump's victory, particularly the involvement of figures like RFK Jr. and Tulsi Gabbard? 42 00:04:27,840 --> 00:04:37,760 Wow, actually I'm intimidated to be quite honest with Claude's prowess when it comes to one, 43 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:46,640 knowing who I am and being able to put that together so succinctly. And I think it's a great 44 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:57,040 question because, you know, it's funny. I got exposed to Rudyard Lynch. I'm reading right now 45 00:04:58,640 --> 00:05:05,920 Peter Wilson's book, The 30 Years War, and I really recommend it. I mean, it's a thick 46 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:12,960 tome. It's hard to get through, but it's real. The 30 Years War is amazingly complex, and there are 47 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:23,040 eras of it. It went from, as Rudyard pointed out, from 1618 to 1648, and it absolutely decimated the 48 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:33,200 German Holy Roman Empire states, and everyone was involved. It really was a total war on a 49 00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:44,080 continental basis where you had, at any one time, you had all the, I mean, the principalities in 50 00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:49,440 the German states involved. You had the Swedes involved, the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, 51 00:05:49,440 --> 00:06:01,520 France, you know, and England in a lesser role, more supportive of different players. But, 52 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:11,360 and Spain, of course, very much involved. And then all these interlocking relationships. But before 53 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:19,440 the 30 Years War, there were a lot of run-ups to it. And I know Rudyard is probably spot on in many 54 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:25,200 respects when it comes to saying, you know, we should be looking at the 30 Years War, not necessarily 55 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:32,880 the American Civil War or the American Revolution, for guide stars in looking at what could happen. 56 00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:40,800 But I think we even need to go a step back further to the French Counter-Reformation, 57 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:52,800 which took place in the later 16th century, that period between the 1550s and late 1500s. 58 00:06:52,800 --> 00:07:01,680 And I think everyone should probably read if you haven't, I'll pull it down. But become familiar 59 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:11,440 with Montaigne, and because he was very much a player in this period. And I put up a quote of his 60 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:16,960 on my personal X-page, and it reads something in effect of, 61 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:25,280 the problem with Civil War is it makes us all sentinels in our own homes. Because I recall 62 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:30,240 reading a biography on him, and he was talking about there was a point in his life where he was 63 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:37,200 the mayor of a small city, and on weekends, he would go horseback riding, you ride horseback to 64 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:44,000 his estate. And his fear was to be encountered, he would come on a crossroad, and there'd be 65 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:49,520 Uginots, Protestants guarding it, and he was a known Roman Catholic, and they might kill him. 66 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:58,960 And you know, I have a friend who were about the same age, and she grew up in Beirut in the 80s 67 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:04,160 during the Civil War there. And she would tell the story, I mean, there's a reason the poor woman 68 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:12,160 has PTSD, highly functioning, but her father would drive her up to a barricade, and she would 69 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:18,720 literally have to dodge snipers on the way to school. And life kind of goes on, as I think 70 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:24,560 Rudyard aptly points out, if not in this podcast, but in another one where, you know, life just kind 71 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:32,800 of goes on in a Civil War, and I think we can find ourselves there. And even though I think 72 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:40,800 there, if, I think if the Trump administration, and I love the fact, I had been saying for two 73 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:49,520 years that he needed to reach out and make R.F.K. his running mate. So in, I believe it was August 74 00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:57,040 when he brought R.F.K. on stage with him, and R.F.K. you know, ended his run for office and his 75 00:08:57,040 --> 00:09:04,400 support for the Trump campaign. I mean, that was significant. That brought in voters that Trump 76 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:10,480 would not have had. And I know several in California that I knew when I was part of the 77 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:14,480 progressive movement in California and on the executive board of the California Democratic 78 00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:20,880 Party, and not a one of them would have voted, been brought in to vote for Trump had it not been for 79 00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:27,520 R.F.K. So I think he might have been responsible for, you know, one, 1.5, maybe as many as two 80 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:34,480 percentage points. And it was a brilliant coalition. I mean, the, I mean, it was an amazing 81 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:40,960 end run around the establishment to do that and just brilliant. And, you know, one thing about 82 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:49,600 Trump that I had noticed in my one instance where I spent an afternoon with him back in 2020, is 83 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:55,440 that I think he's a really bright guy, but where he's head and shoulders above most people is 84 00:09:55,440 --> 00:10:03,760 in EQ, that emotional quotient, that ability to read people in the times and timing like Joe 85 00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:10,080 Rogan had pointed out, he's a good comedian because he has a good sense of comic timing. And he 86 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:16,080 understands that. So can he evoke the right animal spirits, bringing the right people together? 87 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:24,640 I don't know. Ed Doud had mentioned recently that, you know, he's inheriting a turd of an economy. 88 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:33,360 And I think Rudyard in that, that 23 minute podcast with Dad Saves America, I think that was 89 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:41,440 it. I was the interviewer. Yes. He rightly points out that, you know, politics and feelings aren't 90 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:48,400 why people go to war, you know, so do civil war. It's because their backs are literally against 91 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:54,720 the financial world. And, you know, when you have nothing left to lose, you just lose it. 92 00:10:55,680 --> 00:11:02,560 You look at the 30 years war, and much of the part of it where it was very much about, 93 00:11:02,560 --> 00:11:10,480 you know, it got religious. A lot of the underpinnings of that were economic. I mean, 94 00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:17,680 the German states were being just annihilated by the papacy. You know, you had the 95 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:26,240 selling of indulgences, the selling of papal offices and their ability to escape taxation by 96 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:32,960 the local German, you know, the German principalities. It was bankrupting and the people, that's, 97 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:38,480 you know, that was a big reason why a lot of people were turning away from the Catholic Church 98 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:44,560 and didn't trust it. And a lot of the reasons for the actual warfare itself. I mean, again, 99 00:11:44,560 --> 00:11:56,560 much like today, I don't think people really grasp how hard wage earners have it in America today. 100 00:11:58,560 --> 00:12:07,520 You know, I think our mutual friend, John Michael Greer, did an amazing job when he penned an article 101 00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:14,880 in January of 2016, because he was talking about why he said at that time, President, you know, 102 00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:22,480 Trump will win the presidency in 2016. And he said, he's the only one speaking to class warfare. 103 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:32,960 And that's what's throwing everyone under the bus. And it's systemic. I mean, well, I'll leave it 104 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:41,280 there. But I think Greer is spot on that we are on our way to civil war. And the economic underpinnings 105 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:48,000 are there. He was talking about, you know, these inflationary cycles that touched off a lot of the 106 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:59,120 civil wars. Those are here. And we've been able to gloss over it all with financialization. But I 107 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:07,840 don't think we're going to be able to do that for much longer. KMO. So my substack is called Gen X 108 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:12,800 science fiction and futurism. I was born in 1968. And I definitely identify with my generational 109 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:20,240 cohort of Gen X. You are a few years older. What is your generational cohort affiliation? Yeah, I'm 110 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:28,800 technically a boomer, I think. I'm in my 60s. And it's funny. And what I you know, what I found, 111 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:35,920 and I don't know if you were as amazed by Rudyard as I was to think that someone so young could 112 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:42,960 possess so much knowledge, and have the ability to do critical thinking because you there's this 113 00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:50,160 quote from Henry Ford, and it goes like this, he goes, never trust anything anyone says who's 114 00:13:50,160 --> 00:14:01,920 under the age of 40. Unfortunately, boomers, I think there's a huge blind spot with us in that. 115 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:10,880 And I'm fortunate I have Xers and Z's working for me right now. Actually millennials and Z's 116 00:14:10,880 --> 00:14:20,160 working for me and they have been able to guide me and help expose my blind spots and I think 117 00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:27,360 help make us more effective. And I don't necessarily want to bring more on, you know, but I want to 118 00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:32,240 make sure those people are resourced and doing the things that they feel they need to do because 119 00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:41,520 it's really helping us as an organization to have those insights that someone like myself 120 00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:47,680 am pretty much blind to. So it's definitely there's a generational aspect in there. And I'd be curious, 121 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:56,080 how do you know, so I'm saying that that's my view in terms of how I think I'm blinded to what's 122 00:14:56,080 --> 00:15:02,880 going on and the damage that's been done. But then again, in my history, I've always advocated for 123 00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:10,240 these younger generations. I was a, I'm an unrepentant parois, a parole supporter, and I 124 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:17,680 worked for a man, he ran for president in 1992. You know, he was fighting these free trade, 125 00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:24,000 quote unquote free trade deals like the North American Free Trade Agreement, the Eurogray 126 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:30,560 rounds of the General Agreement on taxes and tariffs, and the World Trade Organization that 127 00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:37,760 just wholesale sent millions and millions of good manufacturing jobs overseas, but also 128 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:43,440 wiped out whole towns because there's all these ancillary businesses and concerns 129 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:49,200 that go along with these manufacturing jobs. And they would use this, they would gaslight us by 130 00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:55,440 saying, oh, there's jobs, these jobs don't have an economic right to exist. And they keep doing it 131 00:15:55,440 --> 00:16:02,960 because they said learn to code. Well, then they outsourced and offshored all the good coding jobs 132 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:09,520 and everything, you know, they brought in, they heavily abused the H1, they were actually was, 133 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:15,280 it's working the way it's designed to, which is bring in a whole stream of white collar 134 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:21,680 professional workers to displace the expensive, expendable and undeserving American white collar 135 00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:30,720 workers who are now competing for jobs at Starbucks and Walmart because they cannot find work in their 136 00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:39,360 fields. And I'm curious too about, I also think, again, getting that's the inflation aspect, but 137 00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:48,320 what makes this, I think, exceptionally scary, a moment where we really could lose it all is 138 00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:56,320 there's just for the last 30 years been this lack of, not just, you can see it when you walk outside, 139 00:16:56,320 --> 00:17:02,800 the lack of investment in physical infrastructure across the country, you know, China, who in, 140 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:10,160 when Nixon went over there in the early 70s, you know, the mode of transportation were bicycles, 141 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:19,760 and now they have super fast trains going all over the country and brand new cities. So all that money 142 00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:26,240 has been sucked away from the infrastructure of America, but also the lack of investment in human 143 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:34,000 capital. Our schools are an absolute mess. Now granted, there are great school jurisdictions out 144 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:40,960 there, like if you go to Los Angeles and you look at LA Unified School District on the whole, it's 145 00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:49,360 brilliant. No, no, it sucks, I'm sorry, but you go to La Cunha, and one other place, and it's a really 146 00:17:49,360 --> 00:17:56,080 awesome school district, but for the most part, generally speaking, absolute dog shit, and you 147 00:17:56,080 --> 00:18:01,200 know, I live in the city of Lancaster, Pennsylvania, the public schools here are absolute garbage 148 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:08,720 in terms of producing people that are highly competitive and need to be competitive in a, 149 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:18,320 in the 21st century, and we've been let down largely because of the influence of the 150 00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:24,240 the influence of, you know, those organizations that have a vested interest in maintaining power 151 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:34,240 and not giving it up, and lack of investment in the trades. You know, you can't find, you can't keep 152 00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:44,800 technicians or find a good plumber, good mechanic, a good, you know, tradesman, you know, in 153 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:52,000 construction because, you know, the unions weren't investing in that next generation coming up, 154 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:58,080 so I think all these combined to really put this generate, these younger generations, 155 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:05,520 their backs are against the wall, and the wage earners who don't have access to health care and 156 00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:14,400 things like that are particularly vulnerable, and the reason Trump was able to garner so much vote 157 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:20,720 and enthusiasm, I mean, you go to, have you, did you go to any of his rallies, KMO? I've never been 158 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:27,440 to a Trump rally. Well worth going because it's almost a religious experience. I mean, one, 159 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:35,920 you're around great people, I thought, and people were genuinely excited. They traveled miles to be 160 00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:41,520 there. Even if he spoke for just an hour, you know, they'd wait in line, like here in the city of 161 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:49,520 Lancaster when he spoke here, a buddy of mine was getting off a night shift, and he was going to 162 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:54,800 come over and just hang out, crash here, we'd go down at about 11 because Trump would be speaking 163 00:19:54,800 --> 00:20:00,640 at five, and we'd wait till they opened the doors at two, and he'd just gone down to look it out at 164 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:07,760 9 30 a.m. I got a call and I said, look, I'm in line because people are lined up 9 30 a.m. to hear 165 00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:15,680 him speak at five. I mean, that tells you just, and it's not like they think of him as a god because 166 00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:23,680 Trump voters, you know, they booed him, you know, when he spoke about the the vax, the jab and 167 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:29,920 everything. They're very opposed to that. They're not like brainwashed or anything, but they realize 168 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:36,560 that, you know, they might have just one opportunity to get back in the saddle, and it's Trump, and you 169 00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:41,920 know, they came out and supported him for that. Does that help, Lancaster? Kind of set the... 170 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:49,040 Oh, I mean, you answered several questions I didn't ask, but that's all right. I ask about the 171 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:56,160 generational cohort thing because I know that you are familiar with the framework laid out by 172 00:20:56,960 --> 00:21:03,600 Strauss and Howe and their generational theory, and, you know, the phrase the fourth turning 173 00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:09,920 means something to you, and I just wonder how much in the forefront of your thinking, you know, 174 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:18,880 that timeline is in terms of we are coming into a period of intense crisis, and on the other side 175 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:25,120 will be, you know, the new spring, the new awakening, new good times, but we have a really 176 00:21:25,120 --> 00:21:31,440 rough period to get through before we get there. Yeah, I think everyone should be familiar with the 177 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:40,880 concept. I first got, you know, look, we're looking at generational issues. I, when I was at this small 178 00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:46,480 military college called Kemper in Missouri, there was an old woman, Ruthie Roberts, who taught 179 00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:53,440 accounting and economics, and she had been there since shortly after World War II, and she loved 180 00:21:53,440 --> 00:22:02,720 her boys, and, you know, she taught about a Russian economist. His name was Kondratiev, and he had come 181 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:10,960 up with this principle that, look, when you look at innovation, the economics, it's almost like it's 182 00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:18,880 the life of a long-lived human being, like roughly 75 years, and then you had people like Harry Dent 183 00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:24,080 who came along and, you know, applied prices and markets to that, where you could say, look, I can 184 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:31,600 tell you when a generation will buy the most potato chips, and he would also say, look, you know, the 185 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:39,280 Great Depression was caused when the Henry Ford generation began to retire, and they stopped buying 186 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:47,360 the cars, the college educations, and so that started the Great Depression, and then when the 187 00:22:47,360 --> 00:22:54,080 Bob Hope generation went through a similar thing, you know, the 70s, we had a serious recession, 188 00:22:54,880 --> 00:23:02,240 and he had predicted a couple things early, and which is why I, you know, became an adherent of 189 00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:10,960 his. He had said that this, in the 80s, you might recall there were all these books like Japan is 190 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:18,240 number one, you know, the Japanese were eating our lunch in terms of, you know, building better products, 191 00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:25,600 selling on a global basis, and the fear was, you know, they would be number one, America number two, 192 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:32,160 and, you know, but he predicted they were going to fall off a demographic cliff, and that the U.S. 193 00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:37,840 is going to go through this resurgence in the 90s, and that's exactly how it all played out, and he 194 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:45,760 predicted right around 2008 when the critical mass of boomers would start to retire and pull in, 195 00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:51,520 and that's pretty much we had, you know, the Great Recession of 2008, and the Great, what do they call 196 00:23:51,520 --> 00:24:00,480 it, the Great Financial Recession, or something like that, GFR, I think, and, you know, people like me 197 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:07,440 in 2006, we kind of saw it coming, and for me, I got out of equities, I got back into doing commercial 198 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:13,520 property tax, which is where you wanted to be when the commercial real estate market tanked. 199 00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:23,520 It's a good way to make money, but so the, and then Strauss and Howe came along, and they 200 00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:30,640 put these political templates over this generational thing, and they took that that period of a long 201 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:36,400 life human being and cut it into four sections, so they call turnings, first, second, third, and fourth, 202 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:44,160 and that fourth turning is the dangerous one, you know, you go back 80, 85 years, where are we, 203 00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:54,080 we're at, you know, in economic stagnation, world on the precipice of total war, go back 80, 85 years 204 00:24:54,080 --> 00:25:01,920 before that, the American Civil War, 80, 85 years before that, the American Revolution, and, you know, 205 00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:10,160 wars of Spanish succession, so I think there's something to this, and the question is, can you, 206 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:17,920 is being forewarned enabling you to be forearmed, or are these forces so great, you know, and that's 207 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:24,800 where I'm hoping the Trump administration, given their overall openness to new ideas, and, you know, 208 00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:30,080 bringing in cabinet members that aren't all of them, you know, the quite the status quo, 209 00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:38,080 establishment types, younger, you know, they might be able to seize the moment, and 210 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:42,800 you know, apply some of this knowledge and say, wait a minute, it's time to back off, because, 211 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:50,000 you know, you can't talk nuclear war in a fourth turning, because someone is going to pop a nuke, 212 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:56,000 and it could be bad for all of us, it could lead to actual total war, now is the time to be prudent 213 00:25:56,000 --> 00:26:03,200 and hold back, so that's what I'm kind of hoping to see, and that's the importance, I think, of, 214 00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:10,000 you know, a book like The Fourth Turning, and that concept of how, you know, generations kind of work 215 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:16,240 in certain program modes, and how we might be able to avoid pitfalls that might accompany that. 216 00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:23,840 Well, speaking of Rudyard Lynch, he does reference The Fourth Turning quite a bit in his 217 00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:31,120 videos and in his interviews and things. He also talks about the Clio dynamics of the 218 00:26:31,120 --> 00:26:38,480 Peter Turchin, which is a very data intensive, basically historical analysis and model for 219 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:44,880 projecting, or you know, or forecasting, and Peter Turchin's models also have this decade as being 220 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:53,600 one of great turmoil, followed by a new prosperity. I also follow the work of geopolitical 221 00:26:53,600 --> 00:27:03,200 analyst George Friedman, who, you know, he wrote a book. I read his, the Next 70 Years. 222 00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:09,600 He's got a lot of books with similar titles, but his most recent one, gosh, what's it called? 223 00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:17,040 Do you recall, he had a consulting firm in the 90s? Stratfor. Stratfor, that's it, yes, yes. 224 00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:23,680 Anyway, his model basically, it's not so much a model that is as refined as, say, Peter Turchin's, 225 00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:31,440 but he is also, you know, via this data analysis and historical analysis predicting the 2020s 226 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:38,080 are going to be a time of great turmoil as well. But again, followed by, you know, a new period of, 227 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:46,000 I guess, nationalistic esprit de corps, you know, which sounds, if you say nationalistic for half the 228 00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:53,440 people listening, you know, that's just equivalent to Nazi, but, you know, a people living in a place 229 00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:59,040 with a shared history, a shared language, a shared perspective, feeling solidarity with one another 230 00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:05,440 and cooperating in a way that, you know, more disparate collections of people cannot cooperate 231 00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:11,760 and find common ground, and that is a recipe for prosperity. Yeah, oh, absolutely. You know, another 232 00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:18,160 mutual friend of ours, James Howard Kunstler, would speak a lot to that, you know, when you, 233 00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:23,920 you know, if you have the hard times coming, you kind of want everyone operating in the same 234 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:31,680 framework, this, you know, shared values, you know, and, you know, the problem with, and which is why 235 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:41,920 I focus so much on immigration is, you know, when my mother came here in 1952, immigration was 236 00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:49,280 restrictive, well regulated, and it was somewhat rare, and everyone won. Immigrants weren't being 237 00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:56,560 exploited. They weren't, you know, they weren't endangering, you know, the productive classes 238 00:28:56,560 --> 00:29:03,760 here in the U.S. as they had been prior to 1924 when it was pretty much unbridled, but 239 00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:09,440 you add to this where we have had so much immigration, where we don't have these shared 240 00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:16,480 values, and, you know, where maybe someone is thinking, all right, I got to do what's best for 241 00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:24,880 the country, but, you know, and I'm applying something of a, a, something that's, you know, 242 00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:30,880 a soldier's loyalty to one's country as opposed to kind of a merchant 243 00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:39,120 point of view where it's like, okay, what's in this for me? And then if you add to the fact that, 244 00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:45,520 well, if things go sour here in America, I can always return to my old country of origin, 245 00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:52,960 and, you know, these are big problems because these hard times really are going to require 246 00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:59,600 us to work together, and if we don't have that sense of community, like I was speaking to an 247 00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:05,680 immigrant who was working checkout in a grocery store I was at over the weekend, or this weekend 248 00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:12,640 actually yesterday, and he was trying to talk his wife into moving to Germany because he said, 249 00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:18,160 wow, you know, we don't know anyone here. No one seems to, it's hard to get around. You got to work 250 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:24,000 all the time, and, you know, I just, it's time for me to, as to maybe move back to, you know, we want 251 00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:30,400 to go to another country as opposed to the one where they were from, and that just means again, 252 00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:36,640 culturally, you know, a lot of new arrivals are simply outside, you know, social networks that 253 00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:42,240 could be mobilized to bring the country together, and, you know, and then you add to what's been 254 00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:48,880 going on the last four years, KMO, this absolute invasion through the southern border where we 255 00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:57,200 might have added as many as 10 million, 11 million people, and many of them of military age, none of 256 00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:04,240 them with any set loyalty or aspiration to be loyal or fit in culturally in this country, 257 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:11,600 and, you know, we have a real recipe for danger, and you add the hard economic times are coming. 258 00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:22,800 We could, you know, I'm sure in 1854, you had people that kind of were open to the notion that 259 00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:27,760 we could be approaching civil war, but I think most of the country probably thought, ah, no way, 260 00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:34,640 you know, yes, we have big issues, there's problems in Kansas, and, you know, there, you know, 261 00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:38,240 you know, there, you know, we want to, there's a group that wants to end slavery, there's a group 262 00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:44,240 that wants to keep it at all costs, and no one really probably thought we were actually going to 263 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:52,240 get into an amazingly bloody conflaguration that was the American Civil War, and that could be 264 00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:58,880 the issue here, because to me, you know, again, going back to my, you'd meant, Claude had mentioned 265 00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:08,720 my experience as a military officer, but in the mid to late 80s, I was, for instance, at one point, 266 00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:15,360 the Supreme Allied Commander of Europe's terrorism analyst, hunted groups like a Bunin Dao, Popular 267 00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:22,640 Front for the Liberation of Palestine, General Command, and read everything I could on insurgency 268 00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:32,400 and counterinsurgency, and I, that part of me is telling me we could see a big preoccupation in 269 00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:39,120 America going forward in the, in the hard time, if we end up in very hard economic times, pretty 270 00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:47,120 much fighting a counterinsurgency here as well, because we could very well have operatives in the 271 00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:55,600 country that don't have America's best interests, in fact, our malevolent forces here. I think if, 272 00:32:55,600 --> 00:33:04,320 let's just say, since we brought in people from 152 companies, countries over the last four years, 273 00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:11,440 let's just say you're running clandestine ops for a small third world country, and, you know, 274 00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:18,560 until, you know, government, and you're thinking, how can I damage America? And we don't have any 275 00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:25,680 resources, well, I can get 10 guys that we've trained, get them to go through the southern 276 00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:34,160 border, and then get them to set up shop in America and have them be, um, uh, you know, 277 00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:39,920 uh, sleeper cells until they are told to come and, you know, do damage, like things like maybe 278 00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:48,640 blow up a railroad, uh, bridge, uh, maybe, uh, blow up a, a water treatment plant, things like 279 00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:54,640 this, things that could seriously irritate us and force us to devote a lot of resources 280 00:33:54,640 --> 00:34:01,680 to something we ought not to be doing. There, there was no need to even contemplate doing 281 00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:10,880 before the Biden administration. You do, um, you have a lot more to do with 282 00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:18,080 X, formerly Twitter, than I do. I have an account there, but I basically just post links to my 283 00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:23,520 Substack pieces. Uh, but I do want to go over to Substack here. I'm going to read just a little 284 00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:29,760 bit from the Kucinich report. This is Dennis Kucinich's Substack account. Okay. And Dennis 285 00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:35,600 Kucinich writes, our government is planning a big draft, conscripting millions of young Americans 286 00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:40,960 for an even bigger war. I call your attention to a democratic amendment to the National Defense 287 00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:46,640 Authorization Act, which was slipped into the almost trillion dollar Pentagon war spending bill 288 00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:53,200 by voice vote in the house armed services committee. The democratic amendments to HR 8070, 289 00:34:53,200 --> 00:35:00,720 the National Defense Authorization Act reads section 531, selective service system, automatic 290 00:35:00,720 --> 00:35:06,960 registration section three, except as otherwise provided in this title, every male citizen of the 291 00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:12,400 United States and other male person residing in the United States between the ages of 18 and 26 292 00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:19,840 shall be automatically registered under this act by the director of the selective service system. 293 00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:23,920 So I'll stop reading there and just say, you know, when I turned 18, I went to the post office and 294 00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:30,720 I registered for the draft. Uh, this, this new methodology eliminates that everybody is being 295 00:35:30,720 --> 00:35:36,960 registered for the draft automatically. And Dennis Kucinich paints this as, you know, the establishment 296 00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:45,200 preparing for war. Yeah. I mean, this establishment doesn't care about human life. We are a commodity. 297 00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:53,440 I mean, look at the Ukraine war over a million Ukraine deaths, uh, probably easily 500,000 more 298 00:35:53,440 --> 00:36:03,120 Russian deaths. And for what, uh, to launder a lot of money, uh, they just don't care about us. Now, 299 00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:10,960 interesting thing about Dennis Kucinich talk about, again, this new political, uh, environment that's 300 00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:19,120 being created. So I was attending CPAC last year. Uh, no, it was early, very early this year. Right. 301 00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:27,200 It was early in 2024 and it's a Friday night. I'm at the bar with some friends and I look and in walks 302 00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:36,160 Elizabeth and Dennis Kucinich. Okay. Dennis Kucinich, the founder of progressive Democrats 303 00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:42,960 of America. And, you know, at that time I was, you know, Howard Dean had formed democracy for America. 304 00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:49,760 They were both had both run the 2004 presidential race as progressives. We call big P progressives, 305 00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:56,800 not to be confused with those for progressive today. And I was actually running as a volunteer, 306 00:36:56,800 --> 00:37:02,160 the Pasadena democracy for America chapter. So I would come in contact with the progressive 307 00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:09,520 Dems of Los Angeles a lot at Kucinich group. And I met Elizabeth once at a e-board meeting of the 308 00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:16,240 democratic party. And I'm like, what are you guys doing here? I'm like, what are you doing here? 309 00:37:16,240 --> 00:37:22,640 We're here at the Republican, you know, this is a big CPAC, the big rep, you know, right wing, uh, 310 00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:33,040 conservative, uh, event. And, you know, uh, Dennis at the time is running as an independent in his 311 00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:41,920 old, um, congressional district. Sadly didn't get it, but you know, his views are very much that of 312 00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:50,960 RFK, Donald Trump right now, America first. Uh, what's great about Dennis, uh, is that he's really 313 00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:59,040 on immigration, but he was always against NAFTA, GATT, WTO, all of these, um, trade arrangements 314 00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:06,960 that put America last. Uh, unfortunately he didn't win that, uh, run as an independent. The Dem who, 315 00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:12,800 uh, was running for reelection was able to maintain his seat against a Republican challenger 316 00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:20,080 and Dennis Kucinich. Uh, but that kind of, it's funny you brought Dennis Kucinich up because he 317 00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:26,720 is, uh, typical now of what's happening with people that I think are not necessarily concerned 318 00:38:26,720 --> 00:38:34,080 about being a, you know, a progressive or a liberal or a conservative or a Republican or 319 00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:40,480 Democrat, you know, they're finding like I am their way in this political culture to where 320 00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:49,280 we can push, uh, a more America first agenda. So, but yeah, that's really interesting. And again, 321 00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:58,240 I think it, it speaks to the fact that, uh, there isn't that, you know, again, the expectation is 322 00:38:58,240 --> 00:39:05,040 that young men themselves would not go down to the post office and register. It's now, it's just, 323 00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:12,480 it's going to happen to you. It's almost like you've gone from the, the masculine to the feminine 324 00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:21,920 when it comes to war. Well, I, I could pursue that rabbit, but it would involve talking about 325 00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:25,920 somebody who has not agreed to be talked about and who's not necessarily a public figure, but 326 00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:33,920 I'm referencing a recent conversation. Um, there's a guy named Steve Crackauer who does not publish 327 00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:38,720 to Substack often, but I read his most recent piece today and he was talking about the election 328 00:39:38,720 --> 00:39:46,720 and he pointed out that, you know, Kamala Harris, uh, who was not selected via a Democratic primary 329 00:39:46,720 --> 00:39:54,320 process, but who was just appointed to, you know, be Biden's successor, uh, that she not only accepted 330 00:39:54,320 --> 00:40:00,080 the endorsement of Dick Cheney and Lynn Cheney, but really leaned into it, leaned into it hard, 331 00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:06,720 took Lynn Cheney on the campaign trail with her while Donald Trump has surrounded himself with 332 00:40:06,720 --> 00:40:11,680 Democrats or former Democrats, you know, who have left a sinking ship, you know, most notably Tulsi 333 00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:18,480 Gabbard and RFK, you know, Trump himself is a former Democrat. I imagine that, uh, Elon Musk, 334 00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:23,840 while maybe not particularly political, you know, prior to the last, say five or 10 years, 335 00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:29,120 we've been a Democrat, you know, if he cared at all. Uh, but Crackauer's point was that 336 00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:35,680 the Cheneys are definitely the establishment and people like, you know, Tulsi Gabbard, 337 00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:41,600 you know, Tulsi Gabbard and, uh, Robert Kennedy Jr., uh, they are, you know, sort of fringe 338 00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:45,680 characters and they're, they're, they do not read as establishment. You know, you could make an 339 00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:49,600 argument that they, they have establishment ties, but to the electorate, they read as 340 00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:54,960 anti-establishment. And this, the selection showed that people are just done with the 341 00:40:54,960 --> 00:41:00,160 establishment, you know, they, they are not interested except in a few, you know, little 342 00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:06,240 blue holdout regions. But if you look at the electoral map, that's just not much of the country. 343 00:41:06,240 --> 00:41:09,120 So I'll let you take it from there. Not physically much of the country. Uh, 344 00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:15,680 yeah, it's, it's, it's the large civic centers and you would think too that has to be slipping 345 00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:22,800 because, you know, I live an hour and a half drive from Philadelphia and I mean, it's a city with a 346 00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:30,800 lot of problems run by Democrats. Um, even in my small city, that's now run by, that's run by 347 00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:36,800 Democrats. It's, you know, we see, I see the beginnings of the same shakedown that happened 348 00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:45,360 in San Francisco where, you know, where 20 years ago, the budget was one fifth of what it is today 349 00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:52,560 and they had not nearly the issues of homelessness and so many other things, but they pump all this 350 00:41:52,560 --> 00:42:00,160 money into their NGO, this NGO community of friends who are able to get out the vote for them 351 00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:10,560 and keep them in office. And unfortunately, and no NGO exists to, uh, uh, work itself out of business. 352 00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:17,920 So all the issues that these NGOs are, you know, supposedly ostensibly trying to fix, they have no 353 00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:25,440 no ultimate interest in actual fixing. Yeah. The, the first priority for any organization is to 354 00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:33,680 perpetuate itself. Yes. Yeah. You know, an interesting thing, even in my, uh, situation, 355 00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:41,200 uh, in August 3rd, 2020, we met with president Trump, you know, to very specifically 356 00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:47,200 keep 200 information technology jobs at the Tennessee Valley authority from being offshore 357 00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:56,160 to H1, initially outsourced to H1B visa dependent companies like Capgemini and then eventually 358 00:42:56,160 --> 00:43:04,880 offshore to low rent countries. Uh, president Trump, uh, fired the chairman and one of the 359 00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:11,520 directors who hired the CEO of TVA TV, uh, the CEO rescinded his decision to outsource those jobs 360 00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:18,800 was a big victory. Now you would think that if you're a small organization like ours punching 361 00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:28,640 way above their dollar weight, I mean, I was the, it was great. Even the Jacobin was like, why are 362 00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:35,520 these guys saving union jobs and not us? And you would think that that would have led to 363 00:43:36,560 --> 00:43:43,520 a lot more sources of, uh, of grants and donations from people that, you know, were down with our 364 00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:52,160 movement. It led to just the opposite. Uh, one very large funder, uh, divorced himself completely 365 00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:59,680 from us, you know, uh, because he had met with Trump. Yeah. He had Trumped, he, I personally had 366 00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:05,520 Trump derangement syndrome really bad, but regardless, like I try to make the case, it 367 00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:12,880 doesn't matter. You said, look, you know, you support us because we are mitigating the impact 368 00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:18,400 of unbridled immigration and helping working American men and women. We scored the biggest 369 00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:26,000 victory in 40 years on this front. And, uh, yeah. And I just found funding cut across the board. 370 00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:33,360 Uh, so it gets back. Is there truth to this that ultimately at the end of the day, no one wants to 371 00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:41,040 see if you're involved in this NGO complex, I call it the NGO industrial complex. Uh, you want to see 372 00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:46,560 your bread and butter being taken away from you. It's, and you kind of, you can, you can 373 00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:52,080 look at what happened with gay marriage. Um, you know, a lot of people like me that didn't 374 00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:59,520 necessarily support it became supportive of it, but no one shut down shop. All these organizations 375 00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:07,920 went on to the next thing. It's like, okay, now we need to, uh, make if you're gay or they, they 376 00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:15,200 increased the scope to LGBTQ and the whole, you know, alphabet soup of things to, you know, 377 00:45:15,200 --> 00:45:21,200 transgenderism. And then it's like, oh no, we need privilege over you guys. Cause we were this class 378 00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:27,440 that was ostracized and you know, now that, you know, now we need to come back and get way back, 379 00:45:27,440 --> 00:45:34,160 not just back to good, not to good, but we need privilege. Uh, so it never seems to stop. They 380 00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:41,840 never, no one, you know, I would love KMO right now to, you know, say mission accomplished, mission 381 00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:47,440 accomplished, uh, turn the key in the door for the last time and shut this operation down. Cause we 382 00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:55,280 had won. Uh, but I think most people again, who are in, as you mentioned in this NGO, uh, 383 00:45:56,240 --> 00:45:58,400 nonprofit world don't see it that way. 384 00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:04,880 You know, you've mentioned several of our mutual acquaintances over the course of this conversation. 385 00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:08,880 Uh, there's another one I'd like to bring in and he is a very active presence on substance 386 00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:15,920 stack. And that is Steve lamb. Who is, who is Steve lamb? All right. Steve lamb and I became 387 00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:22,000 really good friends. Um, when I was living in Pasadena, well, I was living in Alth, well, 388 00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:27,520 Pasadena, California initially. Then I moved up to Alta Dena where Steve, uh, was a town councilman. 389 00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:35,600 He's a, he's not an architect, but he's, um, he does, uh, building design. So he's not like a 390 00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:42,960 licensed architect, but he does a lot of, you know, work in that area. And he was a council, 391 00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:51,600 town councilman of a sleepy little, uh, town called Alta Dena in California, uh, for 24 years. 392 00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:57,040 And when I had taken over Pasadena democracy for America, I'd mentioned Howard Dean and, 393 00:46:57,040 --> 00:47:02,320 you know, he created from Dean for America, became democracy for America and the Pasadena 394 00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:08,000 chapter eventually came according to Howard Dean's brother, Jim, uh, the most effective 395 00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:16,080 organization, west of the Mississippi for them. But early on I had said, okay, we're going to do 396 00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:20,240 a visioning meeting, bring all the activists together and say, okay, where are we going, 397 00:47:20,240 --> 00:47:26,720 you know, with this organization and it was where it was going. You know, Steve was up talking 398 00:47:26,720 --> 00:47:33,920 and he's saying, look, we got to push out these corporate Dems. We got to get back to grassroots 399 00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:39,600 activism where we're responding to the needs of the people, not just the people, but things that 400 00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:46,000 actually make good economic sense here in the community, get rid of all these NGOs that have 401 00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:52,960 latched on to, uh, you know, and we had, there were a number of them, even, you know, religious 402 00:47:52,960 --> 00:47:57,760 ones that had just kind of latched onto the democratic party and we're running things. 403 00:47:57,760 --> 00:48:04,720 We were all Democrats and progressive Democrats. So during one of the breaks, uh, some of the old 404 00:48:04,720 --> 00:48:09,920 establishment guys in the Pasadena area were there and, you know, they looked at like on me, 405 00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:15,760 like I was the bright shining young star that was gonna, you know, they would just, what do you 406 00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:21,120 want? You know, here's your path forward in the democratic party. And so, you know, I think 407 00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:28,080 that's where we're going. And if you don't like it, you can go. And so that began Steve Lamb 408 00:48:28,080 --> 00:48:34,320 and my collaboration years ago. So Steve has always been kind of a Mustang, you know, 409 00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:40,080 and he's been a great leader in the Democratic party. And so, you know, he's been a great leader 410 00:48:40,080 --> 00:48:45,360 in the Democratic party. And so, you know, he's been a great leader in the Democratic party. 411 00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:51,920 And so, you know, he's been a great leader in the Democratic party. And so, you know, Steve has 412 00:48:51,920 --> 00:48:59,120 always been kind of a Mustang, you know, out there in California politics and fifth generation, 413 00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:06,240 California. And so, you know, when you've been around for generations, you know, there's a lot 414 00:49:06,240 --> 00:49:12,880 that just comes down verbally from prior generations to you that you know about things and, you know, 415 00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:19,840 at the local, county, state level, you know, you can apply a sniff test to it and go, no, no, no, 416 00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:24,240 that doesn't make sense. You know, I know how it happened. I know where some of the bodies are 417 00:49:24,240 --> 00:49:32,240 buried kind of thing. Well, how would you describe Steve Lamb's political orientation, say, 10 years 418 00:49:32,240 --> 00:49:42,320 ago? 10 years ago, I know exactly where it was. And I'll give you a great example. So when our 419 00:49:42,320 --> 00:49:48,880 Pasadena Democracy for America had come into real prominence, I mean, we were a political power in 420 00:49:48,880 --> 00:49:56,880 the San Gabriel Valley as a totally volunteer organization. But even Republicans would come 421 00:49:56,880 --> 00:50:02,480 to us looking for our endorsement because they're like, we know you guys, you have a reputation of 422 00:50:02,480 --> 00:50:08,720 being, you know, you know, pretty fair. And, you know, you're pretty upfront with what you want to 423 00:50:08,720 --> 00:50:15,200 accomplish. And, you know, will you at least let me speak to your group, you know? And so that was 424 00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:23,200 kind of the orientation. So we were, and I know Steve was, you know, you know, understood that 425 00:50:23,840 --> 00:50:31,120 the Democratic Party, certainly in California, were a bunch of corrupt apparatchiks. And it was 426 00:50:31,120 --> 00:50:37,120 a bunch of people that would just glom on and use it to do what they want to do. And they would just 427 00:50:37,120 --> 00:50:42,000 gaslight anyone who would say anything different. So that's kind of where he was 10 years ago. 428 00:50:44,320 --> 00:50:45,360 And where is he now? 429 00:50:47,760 --> 00:50:52,880 Good question. Where is he now? Well, right now, he's now the chairman of my organization 430 00:50:54,400 --> 00:51:02,160 because he had come on several years ago to help us out on our board. And I would say he's, 431 00:51:02,160 --> 00:51:12,800 you know, he really is kind of of an America first mindset who is, you know, understands where a lot 432 00:51:12,800 --> 00:51:18,720 of the corruption is, whether it's MK Ultra, you know, looking at, you know, a lot of these conspiracy 433 00:51:18,720 --> 00:51:26,400 theories has actually done a lot of study on the assassination of Robert Kennedy, you know, RFK's 434 00:51:26,400 --> 00:51:33,600 father. And so, yeah, I mean, that's kind of where I see him today. 435 00:51:34,560 --> 00:51:42,000 Well, he is a vociferous Trump supporter. And, you know, he posted two, three, four times a week, 436 00:51:42,000 --> 00:51:49,840 sometimes, you know, long, very eloquent and erudite essays, basically talking about why, 437 00:51:49,840 --> 00:51:56,640 you know, that regardless of Trump's faults, the Democratic Party establishment was simply 438 00:51:57,520 --> 00:52:06,560 unendurable, unacceptable. You know, it had to be defeated and deposed. I mentioned this because, 439 00:52:06,560 --> 00:52:11,360 you know, like you, I mean, you're a former Democrat and Trump is surrounded by former 440 00:52:11,360 --> 00:52:17,440 Democrats, but people who have been pushed out, like, you know, Bernie Sanders in 2016, he ran 441 00:52:17,440 --> 00:52:24,880 a left leaning populist campaign and the Democratic establishment moved heaven and earth to smear him 442 00:52:24,880 --> 00:52:30,720 and marginalize him, you know, call him a sexist and a racist and, you know, all the usual stuff. 443 00:52:31,840 --> 00:52:38,960 And, you know, basically burned half of their own field, you know, in order to keep the populist 444 00:52:38,960 --> 00:52:46,560 down. And that's just driven so many people out. So now, you know, the electoral results 445 00:52:46,560 --> 00:52:53,120 basically, you know, demonstrate the country is not having it. You know, the majority of the 446 00:52:53,120 --> 00:52:58,880 population. All right. So that was most of the conversation with Kevin Lin. I am going to save 447 00:52:58,880 --> 00:53:04,560 not the last half, more like the last quarter for the paying audience on the C. Rome Vaults 448 00:53:04,560 --> 00:53:10,960 podcast and Behind the Paywall on Substack. All right. Thanks so much for listening. 449 00:53:10,960 --> 00:53:20,320 I will talk to you again. Stay well.