WEBVTT

00:00:19.550 --> 00:00:22.809
Well, howdy, y 'all. Welcome back to yet another

00:00:22.809 --> 00:00:26.210
episode of Your Mom on Drugs, number 14. Oh,

00:00:26.210 --> 00:00:29.510
that is amazing. Yeah. It is. I mean, some people

00:00:29.510 --> 00:00:32.520
have... Podcasts in the thousands, which is pretty

00:00:32.520 --> 00:00:35.939
incredible. But for such a little fledgling like

00:00:35.939 --> 00:00:39.399
us, we're happy to be here. My name is Josh.

00:00:39.600 --> 00:00:43.880
I am the son. And this is Dr. Jennifer Seltzer,

00:00:43.939 --> 00:00:47.509
the mom on drugs. and uh we are here to talk

00:00:47.509 --> 00:00:50.710
today about a topic and that we haven't covered

00:00:50.710 --> 00:00:52.770
before what are we talking about today mom today

00:00:52.770 --> 00:00:55.750
we're talking about adaptogens oh adaptogens

00:00:55.750 --> 00:01:00.049
that sounds like a fancy word what what are adaptogens

00:01:00.049 --> 00:01:04.269
well and you had proposed this topic and neither

00:01:04.269 --> 00:01:07.730
of us knew really what they were so here goes

00:01:07.730 --> 00:01:11.670
so um as when i started looking into what adaptogens

00:01:11.670 --> 00:01:15.099
are i've got a couple of definitions are kind

00:01:15.099 --> 00:01:18.700
of, you know, kind of what they are. But an easy

00:01:18.700 --> 00:01:20.900
thing is that they're usually certain herbs or

00:01:20.900 --> 00:01:22.700
mushrooms that are thought to have health benefits.

00:01:22.799 --> 00:01:25.019
That's pretty. pretty nonspecific and global.

00:01:25.359 --> 00:01:28.239
Or they also could be natural medicines that

00:01:28.239 --> 00:01:30.560
are supposed to increase the body's ability to

00:01:30.560 --> 00:01:33.180
deal with stressors like anxiety, fatigue, and

00:01:33.180 --> 00:01:35.260
trauma. And when we got into more looking at

00:01:35.260 --> 00:01:38.319
this, that's really, I think, a target area where

00:01:38.319 --> 00:01:42.379
people utilize these adaptogens. And it's also

00:01:42.379 --> 00:01:46.659
thought to be a class of natural substances that

00:01:46.659 --> 00:01:49.870
are... that may increase an organism's ability

00:01:49.870 --> 00:01:52.989
to adapt and avoid damage from various harmful

00:01:52.989 --> 00:01:57.250
factors. For example, the Latin word adaptere

00:01:57.250 --> 00:02:01.430
means to adjust or fit, and the Greek word gen

00:02:01.430 --> 00:02:05.609
means produced or generated. So it's like you're

00:02:05.609 --> 00:02:10.090
trying to adjust or fit against stressors that

00:02:10.090 --> 00:02:12.870
are generated or produced against your body and

00:02:12.870 --> 00:02:15.389
stuff. Okay, so I see like maybe if you get...

00:02:15.910 --> 00:02:18.229
sick or you start kind of feeling out of sorts,

00:02:18.310 --> 00:02:20.849
like you have anxiety or depression, someone's

00:02:20.849 --> 00:02:22.129
going to come along and be like, Hey, here's

00:02:22.129 --> 00:02:24.849
this herb or mushroom that you can take. It's

00:02:24.849 --> 00:02:27.159
going to. basically revert you back to your quote

00:02:27.159 --> 00:02:30.099
unquote normal state. Right. And I think a lot

00:02:30.099 --> 00:02:33.240
of, I saw a lot with stress too, just, you know,

00:02:33.240 --> 00:02:36.099
because we've become a much more stressful society,

00:02:36.219 --> 00:02:39.840
I think in some senses and stuff. So, so that's

00:02:39.840 --> 00:02:41.479
definitely where it's been touted as well too.

00:02:41.919 --> 00:02:44.620
It can be found in both natural and synthetic

00:02:44.620 --> 00:02:47.780
sources. And interestingly, it's sold as teas

00:02:47.780 --> 00:02:52.060
and as tinctures, which is like a little concentrated

00:02:52.060 --> 00:02:55.699
liquid powders that you can add. to food or a

00:02:55.699 --> 00:02:57.659
capsule. So it's been, it's, you know, it comes

00:02:57.659 --> 00:03:00.719
in, and I also read too that it can actually,

00:03:00.900 --> 00:03:03.819
some of these compounds have been put in skincare

00:03:03.819 --> 00:03:06.439
products. So I'm like, I thought that was interesting.

00:03:06.659 --> 00:03:09.139
So I didn't really go, I didn't really look at

00:03:09.139 --> 00:03:12.900
those that much and stuff. So, but, and they've

00:03:12.900 --> 00:03:15.620
also, these adaptogens have been used for centuries.

00:03:15.780 --> 00:03:18.300
They were, they've been very popular in traditional

00:03:18.300 --> 00:03:23.870
Chinese medicine, as well as in Ayurveda. which

00:03:23.870 --> 00:03:26.889
is an ancient form of Indian healing medicine.

00:03:27.250 --> 00:03:29.590
And it's also now they've, they've become more

00:03:29.590 --> 00:03:31.270
popular in the Western world, but I thought it

00:03:31.270 --> 00:03:32.629
was really interesting because I'd never heard

00:03:32.629 --> 00:03:36.330
of Ayurveda before. And it apparently is a natural

00:03:36.330 --> 00:03:39.349
holistic approach to physical and mental health.

00:03:39.449 --> 00:03:42.370
It's one of the world's oldest medical systems.

00:03:42.629 --> 00:03:45.409
And they usually, it sounds almost a little bit

00:03:45.409 --> 00:03:47.610
kind of like evidence -based medicine without

00:03:47.610 --> 00:03:51.050
the evidence kind of, but it's they, they, the

00:03:51.050 --> 00:03:52.939
treatments, like I said, are derived from plants,

00:03:53.080 --> 00:04:00.840
but they're looking at, um, um, um, I lost my

00:04:00.840 --> 00:04:04.039
train of thought. Um, oh, oh my gosh, I lost

00:04:04.039 --> 00:04:09.280
my train of thought. Oh, I, I'm so sorry. Would

00:04:09.280 --> 00:04:12.560
you please pardon me? Um, so you use, so Ayurveda,

00:04:12.659 --> 00:04:16.160
it uses, it's a combination of using these products

00:04:16.160 --> 00:04:19.720
along with diet, exercise, and lifestyle to have

00:04:19.720 --> 00:04:23.480
this. more balanced life. Okay. So essentially

00:04:23.480 --> 00:04:28.079
it's like, yeah, we have these adaptogens that

00:04:28.079 --> 00:04:31.860
will supplement alongside of having a quote unquote

00:04:31.860 --> 00:04:33.800
healthy life, which means getting good sleep,

00:04:33.920 --> 00:04:35.899
exercise, social connections, kind of the stuff

00:04:35.899 --> 00:04:38.920
that we advocate today in the modern world. Right.

00:04:39.500 --> 00:04:42.250
But you said. It kind of looks like evidence

00:04:42.250 --> 00:04:44.290
-based evidence without the evidence. This might

00:04:44.290 --> 00:04:46.529
be a good time for an overview for some of our

00:04:46.529 --> 00:04:49.029
listeners of what we mean by evidence -based.

00:04:49.269 --> 00:04:51.569
I think a lot of times we, because I know we're

00:04:51.569 --> 00:04:53.610
going to be talking about the clinical literature

00:04:53.610 --> 00:04:56.930
around some of these substances or lack thereof,

00:04:57.029 --> 00:04:59.730
but it might be a good idea to talk about when

00:04:59.730 --> 00:05:03.370
we say evidence -based medicine, what do we mean

00:05:03.370 --> 00:05:05.829
by that? And then what are the various types

00:05:05.829 --> 00:05:08.750
of... studies and evidence you might want to

00:05:08.750 --> 00:05:11.370
look for, for something to be more strongly evidence

00:05:11.370 --> 00:05:14.370
-based versus non -evidence -based. I don't know

00:05:14.370 --> 00:05:16.649
if you want to give a brief overview. Sure. And

00:05:16.649 --> 00:05:19.910
so evidence -based medicine means that we have

00:05:19.910 --> 00:05:25.540
data. on a particular topic that's been researched,

00:05:25.819 --> 00:05:28.939
that it's not just based on somebody's word of

00:05:28.939 --> 00:05:32.860
mouth or somebody's particular experience with

00:05:32.860 --> 00:05:36.220
a particular medication or supplement, but that

00:05:36.220 --> 00:05:39.519
there has been an actual trial set up. The gold

00:05:39.519 --> 00:05:41.720
standard of trials is what we call a randomized

00:05:41.720 --> 00:05:45.860
control trial. And so what that type of trial

00:05:45.860 --> 00:05:49.079
does is it takes the substance that you want

00:05:49.079 --> 00:05:52.759
to study and usually pairs it against a placebo

00:05:52.759 --> 00:05:55.399
or maybe another active medication that's already

00:05:55.399 --> 00:05:58.439
been established. But you're looking then for

00:05:58.439 --> 00:06:01.300
statistically significant differences between

00:06:01.300 --> 00:06:04.259
these two treatment arms. And again, trying to

00:06:04.259 --> 00:06:07.500
keep the two treatment arms as balanced as possible

00:06:07.500 --> 00:06:09.300
so you don't have any confounding variables.

00:06:09.480 --> 00:06:13.160
What that means is any distractors from the data

00:06:13.160 --> 00:06:15.500
so that if you see a difference between those

00:06:15.500 --> 00:06:18.060
two treatment arms, you can feel pretty confident

00:06:18.060 --> 00:06:20.279
with the statistical results that is due to the

00:06:20.279 --> 00:06:21.959
thing you're looking at. I see what you're saying.

00:06:22.019 --> 00:06:25.519
So you might have a thousand people in arm A,

00:06:25.699 --> 00:06:29.339
a thousand people in arm B. and you might want

00:06:29.339 --> 00:06:31.500
them to be looking very similar in terms of a

00:06:31.500 --> 00:06:33.699
population yes equal number of men and women

00:06:33.699 --> 00:06:36.180
yes kind of an average age it's similar maybe

00:06:36.180 --> 00:06:38.860
similar blood pressure similar disease states

00:06:38.860 --> 00:06:41.199
you know yes yeah because you don't want to pick

00:06:41.199 --> 00:06:43.079
like a population of entirely quote -unquote

00:06:43.079 --> 00:06:46.439
healthy people and then a population of all diabetics

00:06:46.439 --> 00:06:48.779
for example because that would be a very skewed

00:06:48.779 --> 00:06:50.759
right and then you don't know how to interpret

00:06:50.759 --> 00:06:53.300
that type of data you know and stuff so so let's

00:06:53.300 --> 00:06:55.519
say we have one of these roots that you talk

00:06:55.519 --> 00:06:58.879
about or shrubs or herbs like you give them let's

00:06:58.879 --> 00:07:02.879
say ashwagandha for example in arm a and then

00:07:02.879 --> 00:07:05.529
you give them the the root of a pecan tree in

00:07:05.529 --> 00:07:08.310
root B, and you grind it up, put it in a tea,

00:07:08.490 --> 00:07:10.810
make people drink it, follow them for... And

00:07:10.810 --> 00:07:12.029
then you've got to decide what you're going to

00:07:12.029 --> 00:07:15.410
be... In all of these studies, you've got a hypothesis

00:07:15.410 --> 00:07:19.050
that you're testing. So it's like, will treatment

00:07:19.050 --> 00:07:21.790
A, let's say ashwagandha, will it cause you to

00:07:21.790 --> 00:07:25.009
have less stress than the pecan tree? And so

00:07:25.009 --> 00:07:27.230
then you've got to identify what your markers

00:07:27.230 --> 00:07:30.230
are going to be to measure that so that you've

00:07:30.230 --> 00:07:33.339
got actual data rather than just... I mean, you

00:07:33.339 --> 00:07:36.199
can do some subjective assessments from patients,

00:07:36.279 --> 00:07:38.699
but it's harder to do statistical analysis on

00:07:38.699 --> 00:07:42.000
subjective assessments. Yeah, because there could

00:07:42.000 --> 00:07:43.879
be so many things that cause stress in a day.

00:07:43.920 --> 00:07:46.060
It might be something like cortisol levels. Right,

00:07:46.079 --> 00:07:50.240
cortisol levels or a number of times that you

00:07:50.240 --> 00:07:54.500
had to take Tylenol. I mean, just ridiculous

00:07:54.500 --> 00:07:57.500
things, but it's like you're just looking for

00:07:57.500 --> 00:08:01.300
things to measure. How do I know this is better?

00:08:02.319 --> 00:08:05.680
And I think a lot of times these spaces were

00:08:05.680 --> 00:08:09.579
– in these complementary medicine spaces, whether

00:08:09.579 --> 00:08:12.639
it be homeopathy or ayurvedic medicine or traditional

00:08:12.639 --> 00:08:15.319
Chinese medicine, they'll claim to have evidence.

00:08:15.699 --> 00:08:19.660
They'll cite studies that say, hey, there's actually

00:08:19.660 --> 00:08:22.529
a study that shows this benefit. But I think

00:08:22.529 --> 00:08:24.750
you would probably say not all studies are created

00:08:24.750 --> 00:08:26.529
equal, right? That's correct. There's this kind

00:08:26.529 --> 00:08:29.290
of pyramid of hierarchy of quality of evidence.

00:08:29.370 --> 00:08:31.930
Can you speak to some of the, maybe the types

00:08:31.930 --> 00:08:35.610
of studies that some of these... these other

00:08:35.610 --> 00:08:38.309
forms of medicine might use to claim that they're

00:08:38.309 --> 00:08:42.269
evidence -based? Sure. So, Colin, maybe on the

00:08:42.269 --> 00:08:45.269
bottom of the pyramid, per se, would be things

00:08:45.269 --> 00:08:50.549
like a case report or maybe, you know, or just

00:08:50.549 --> 00:08:54.340
kind of a random, you know. saw this kind of

00:08:54.340 --> 00:08:56.500
thing and a case report is usually something

00:08:56.500 --> 00:08:59.240
happened in a particular patient and then you

00:08:59.240 --> 00:09:01.539
describe that that particular patient and what

00:09:01.539 --> 00:09:05.399
happened but you can't really draw any bottom

00:09:05.399 --> 00:09:07.259
line conclusions from that that you can apply

00:09:07.259 --> 00:09:09.639
to a general population and then you're going

00:09:09.639 --> 00:09:12.240
to move up into things like an maybe an open

00:09:12.240 --> 00:09:15.059
label trial what that means is that there's no

00:09:15.059 --> 00:09:17.919
you don't have any control group or any anything

00:09:17.919 --> 00:09:21.779
to compare it to you're just recording data and

00:09:21.779 --> 00:09:25.460
just seeing what happens. But you really don't

00:09:25.460 --> 00:09:27.559
know if it's really better than anything else.

00:09:28.559 --> 00:09:31.860
You do have trials, too, where you take a point

00:09:31.860 --> 00:09:33.620
in time and you look backward. They're called

00:09:33.620 --> 00:09:37.000
retrospective trials. So you already have the

00:09:37.000 --> 00:09:38.639
data in the front, but then you're looking back,

00:09:38.700 --> 00:09:41.019
kind of dredging through maybe old reports, maybe

00:09:41.019 --> 00:09:44.899
it's hospital files or old reports, looking to

00:09:44.899 --> 00:09:47.139
see if you can see any trends that might have

00:09:47.139 --> 00:09:49.340
caused this. And those are not as strong as...

00:09:49.360 --> 00:09:52.299
a randomized control trial. And then, and then,

00:09:52.320 --> 00:09:54.179
so then randomized control trials, like I said,

00:09:54.200 --> 00:09:56.100
are the gold standard, but above a randomized

00:09:56.100 --> 00:09:58.120
control trial are things that are called either

00:09:58.120 --> 00:10:02.919
meta -analyses or systematic reviews. And systematic

00:10:02.919 --> 00:10:07.059
reviews are, are better than meta -analyses because

00:10:07.059 --> 00:10:09.860
systematic reviews will go through the literature.

00:10:09.940 --> 00:10:12.820
They will find clinical trials that look like

00:10:12.820 --> 00:10:15.639
each other so that they can then make assessments

00:10:15.639 --> 00:10:17.740
and draw conclusions from the results of these

00:10:17.740 --> 00:10:20.120
trials to then give you this broader, like, this

00:10:20.120 --> 00:10:22.179
is what the body of literature says about this

00:10:22.179 --> 00:10:24.679
subject. And so it saves you some time from having

00:10:24.679 --> 00:10:26.679
to go do a literature search on that particular

00:10:26.679 --> 00:10:30.460
topic. And then you get kind of what are some

00:10:30.460 --> 00:10:32.139
experts thinking about this because they'll put

00:10:32.139 --> 00:10:34.559
a panel together of experts to do these systems.

00:10:34.570 --> 00:10:37.730
reviews. Meta -analyses are the same kind of

00:10:37.730 --> 00:10:40.529
thing, but what meta -analyses, how they differ

00:10:40.529 --> 00:10:42.549
from a systematic review is that they actually

00:10:42.549 --> 00:10:46.190
find trials. Maybe it's something that has less,

00:10:46.269 --> 00:10:48.710
maybe individual trials have less patient population

00:10:48.710 --> 00:10:52.529
in the trial, or it's just a harder subject matter.

00:10:52.610 --> 00:10:54.049
It's harder to get people in that particular

00:10:54.049 --> 00:10:57.490
trial. And they'll pool the data together and

00:10:57.490 --> 00:11:00.269
then do statistics on them. But then they make

00:11:00.269 --> 00:11:03.279
a lot of the trials in which they pulled those

00:11:03.279 --> 00:11:06.159
data from may not have been similar. And so then

00:11:06.159 --> 00:11:09.000
that can really kind of skew your results. Yeah,

00:11:09.000 --> 00:11:10.539
like the dose that they give someone could be

00:11:10.539 --> 00:11:12.580
different, the frequency in which they give,

00:11:12.620 --> 00:11:14.740
you know. Or the patient, even the patient populations

00:11:14.740 --> 00:11:16.480
can maybe look a little different and stuff.

00:11:16.620 --> 00:11:19.159
And then the top thing that you'll see on that

00:11:19.159 --> 00:11:21.720
pyramid is our guidelines, which again, we see

00:11:21.720 --> 00:11:23.779
those a lot in clinical trials. And again, it's

00:11:23.779 --> 00:11:27.059
a group of experts in a particular area on a

00:11:27.059 --> 00:11:29.759
particular topic. And they take their expertise

00:11:29.759 --> 00:11:32.000
as well as the... literature. And then they create

00:11:32.000 --> 00:11:36.340
this guideline that will then kind of give healthcare

00:11:36.340 --> 00:11:41.600
providers teeth on which to make decisions as

00:11:41.600 --> 00:11:43.759
far as healthcare is concerned. I think that's

00:11:43.759 --> 00:11:45.860
great. I think my last one that I want to bring

00:11:45.860 --> 00:11:48.379
up is usually one of my favorites because I think

00:11:48.379 --> 00:11:51.440
a lot of people in this space. of claiming to

00:11:51.440 --> 00:11:54.039
be evidence -based use a lot whether to glorify

00:11:54.039 --> 00:11:56.720
something or to demonize something is that they'll

00:11:56.720 --> 00:12:00.120
use um either animal studies or rodent studies

00:12:00.120 --> 00:12:03.139
or toxicity studies where i think my favorite

00:12:03.139 --> 00:12:06.240
example is artificial sweeteners i think there

00:12:06.240 --> 00:12:09.039
has been this claim going around i think i think

00:12:09.039 --> 00:12:12.200
it started maybe a couple years ago that things

00:12:12.200 --> 00:12:15.409
like aspartame and diet coke which if you've

00:12:15.409 --> 00:12:17.409
been listening to this podcast you know is my

00:12:17.409 --> 00:12:22.029
the mom on drugs favorite drug and they basically

00:12:22.029 --> 00:12:25.570
said that it is a carcinogenic like this this

00:12:25.570 --> 00:12:28.210
artificial sweetener um and that you should be

00:12:28.210 --> 00:12:29.950
careful when drinking it but when you really

00:12:29.950 --> 00:12:33.590
look at the data the only reason it's carcinogenic

00:12:33.590 --> 00:12:37.129
is because they cited this rodent study to basically

00:12:37.129 --> 00:12:40.110
figure out how much of aspartame can we give

00:12:40.110 --> 00:12:43.190
these rodents before they start developing cancer.

00:12:43.809 --> 00:12:46.029
And when you look at the math and you look at

00:12:46.029 --> 00:12:47.929
how much you would have to give a human in order

00:12:47.929 --> 00:12:50.950
for this risk to actually appear in a human population,

00:12:51.169 --> 00:12:54.129
they would have to drink 12 Diet Cokes a day.

00:12:54.370 --> 00:12:58.029
A day, not a week, not in a month, a day. You

00:12:58.029 --> 00:13:00.049
would have to drink that much to get the proper

00:13:00.049 --> 00:13:03.330
amount of aspartame or artificial sweetener to

00:13:03.330 --> 00:13:05.470
increase the risk to be slightly carcinogenic.

00:13:05.870 --> 00:13:08.710
So you'll see a lot of studies out there either

00:13:08.710 --> 00:13:11.500
glorifying something. or demonizing something,

00:13:11.679 --> 00:13:14.059
sometimes based on just an animal study or a

00:13:14.059 --> 00:13:17.600
toxicology study that's literally just determining

00:13:17.600 --> 00:13:19.899
the amount where it's dangerous, which is obviously

00:13:19.899 --> 00:13:22.639
important, but people can really take that information

00:13:22.639 --> 00:13:28.039
and skew it for bad or for good. Right. So as

00:13:28.039 --> 00:13:32.120
we mentioned earlier, the adaptogens, they're

00:13:32.120 --> 00:13:35.320
marketed commonly today to help people who are

00:13:35.320 --> 00:13:37.740
facing difficult physical or emotional circumstances.

00:13:38.019 --> 00:13:42.039
And they're also marketed to help prevent overtaxing

00:13:42.039 --> 00:13:45.200
the body's energetic resources. And they've been

00:13:45.200 --> 00:13:47.620
used in sports medicine. And they've been even

00:13:47.620 --> 00:13:51.320
marketed online to counter aging or chronic fatigue

00:13:51.320 --> 00:13:55.039
syndrome as well, too. But there's really limited

00:13:55.039 --> 00:13:57.320
scientific evidence to support their use for

00:13:57.320 --> 00:14:00.120
either exercise recovery or stress relief or

00:14:00.120 --> 00:14:03.820
immune balance. And they are not regulated by

00:14:03.820 --> 00:14:08.090
the FDA. Supplement space, correct? Supplement.

00:14:08.210 --> 00:14:11.230
And so, yes. So, yeah. So, they aren't regulated.

00:14:11.370 --> 00:14:14.070
And so, what that means is not only do you not

00:14:14.070 --> 00:14:17.289
have clinical trials associated with these agents

00:14:17.289 --> 00:14:21.850
that let you know whether or not it's safe and

00:14:21.850 --> 00:14:25.529
effective, but also there are no purity standards

00:14:25.529 --> 00:14:28.769
for these agents. So, that means that every bottle

00:14:28.769 --> 00:14:32.509
that you buy of Cordyceps may not have the same

00:14:32.509 --> 00:14:36.440
amounts in each tablet or capsule. the tinctures

00:14:36.440 --> 00:14:38.740
that you buy may not be the same in each bottle

00:14:38.740 --> 00:14:41.120
because there are no standards that they need

00:14:41.120 --> 00:14:44.519
to follow in order to make them. I thought it

00:14:44.519 --> 00:14:46.820
would be a good idea for us to just kind of talk

00:14:46.820 --> 00:14:50.039
a little bit, since a lot of the adaptogens target

00:14:50.039 --> 00:14:53.220
stress relief, I thought it would be a good thing

00:14:53.220 --> 00:14:57.120
for us to just kind of briefly, and I know I'm

00:14:57.120 --> 00:15:00.139
not an endocrinologist, I'm not good at the immune

00:15:00.139 --> 00:15:02.419
system, but I can tell you what the literature

00:15:02.419 --> 00:15:04.519
says as far as stress is concerned, as far as

00:15:04.519 --> 00:15:08.899
how our bodies adapt to stress. So one of the

00:15:08.899 --> 00:15:12.110
best, one of the simplest definitions for stress

00:15:12.110 --> 00:15:14.330
that I found was it's the body's way of responding

00:15:14.330 --> 00:15:18.190
to any kind of demand or change. So when we're

00:15:18.190 --> 00:15:21.110
stressed, our body releases chemicals into the

00:15:21.110 --> 00:15:23.990
blood that gives a person the energy to fight

00:15:23.990 --> 00:15:26.149
or escape. It's that fight or flight mechanism.

00:15:26.649 --> 00:15:29.250
And we can all think about those times when we're

00:15:29.250 --> 00:15:31.710
like, we've been faced with an angry dog, you

00:15:31.710 --> 00:15:35.250
know, or, you know, we, you know, somebody coming

00:15:35.250 --> 00:15:36.509
at you with a knife, you know, whatever we're

00:15:36.509 --> 00:15:40.690
going to run. So, but so Stress that increases

00:15:40.690 --> 00:15:44.190
and it doesn't result in either that fight or

00:15:44.190 --> 00:15:48.529
escape result can build up and it could cause

00:15:48.529 --> 00:15:50.470
health issues. You could have increased blood

00:15:50.470 --> 00:15:53.230
pressure or you can make your heart work harder.

00:15:53.350 --> 00:15:55.750
And so you could have some effects on your mental

00:15:55.750 --> 00:15:58.690
and physical health. And the system inside of

00:15:58.690 --> 00:16:02.679
our body that is responsible for helping with

00:16:02.679 --> 00:16:07.100
stress is called the hypothalamic pituitary adrenal

00:16:07.100 --> 00:16:12.019
axis, or it's known as the HPA axis. And it's

00:16:12.019 --> 00:16:14.460
a communication system between three organs,

00:16:14.620 --> 00:16:17.879
the hypothalamus, which is located really deep

00:16:17.879 --> 00:16:21.059
in the brain, the pituitary gland, which is also

00:16:21.059 --> 00:16:23.519
at the base of the brain, and then the adrenal

00:16:23.519 --> 00:16:25.600
glands, which are actually on the top of your

00:16:25.600 --> 00:16:29.139
kidneys. and stuff. So, and so they talk to each

00:16:29.139 --> 00:16:32.120
other and they've got a feedback loop so that

00:16:32.120 --> 00:16:34.360
if you understand what a feed, our bodies have

00:16:34.360 --> 00:16:36.159
several feedback loops in them, but we're just

00:16:36.159 --> 00:16:38.340
going to target on this one today. The primary

00:16:38.340 --> 00:16:42.799
agent that the HPA axis is regulating is going

00:16:42.799 --> 00:16:45.840
to be cortisol, which is what gets released when

00:16:45.840 --> 00:16:48.679
you have stress events. And so again, you've

00:16:48.679 --> 00:16:50.720
got a feedback loop. So if you put out a whole

00:16:50.720 --> 00:16:53.460
lot of cortisol out of the HPA axis, it'll go

00:16:53.460 --> 00:16:55.879
back to the top and tell your hypothalamus. to

00:16:55.879 --> 00:16:58.860
tell you to stop producing cortisol. But if you

00:16:58.860 --> 00:17:03.779
have some defects in the system, then you could

00:17:03.779 --> 00:17:07.740
then... And the cortisol gets released primarily

00:17:07.740 --> 00:17:09.900
from the adrenal glands out the top of the kidney.

00:17:10.220 --> 00:17:13.579
But if you have something, if you either, you

00:17:13.579 --> 00:17:15.420
could, but you can have that function, that access

00:17:15.420 --> 00:17:18.619
can become dysfunctional. You can have too many

00:17:18.619 --> 00:17:21.039
stresses. So you can have constant increases

00:17:21.039 --> 00:17:23.500
in your cortisol levels and it doesn't tell the

00:17:23.500 --> 00:17:26.000
system to shut off. And so then you can have

00:17:26.000 --> 00:17:28.299
a whole lot of dysfunctional things going on

00:17:28.299 --> 00:17:31.000
in your body. Even you can have immune system

00:17:31.000 --> 00:17:32.880
dysfunction because you, so you can have autoimmune

00:17:32.880 --> 00:17:35.960
disorders. You can have. mood disorders, anxiety

00:17:35.960 --> 00:17:39.960
disorders, PTSD. And then you could also have

00:17:39.960 --> 00:17:42.799
metabolic disorders like diabetes or cardiovascular

00:17:42.799 --> 00:17:45.720
disease. Can I give an example I think would

00:17:45.720 --> 00:17:48.619
help ground people on this? Okay. It's a household

00:17:48.619 --> 00:17:52.160
example. So a perfect example of a feedback loop

00:17:52.160 --> 00:17:56.579
is your toilet. So whenever you press that, if

00:17:56.579 --> 00:17:59.180
you've ever had a broken toilet, you probably

00:17:59.180 --> 00:18:02.059
had to take off the top of the lid for the bowl

00:18:02.059 --> 00:18:05.400
or the tank, I should say. And when you press

00:18:05.400 --> 00:18:08.440
the lever, you essentially open a valve that

00:18:08.440 --> 00:18:12.000
allows water to flush down the pipe, you know,

00:18:12.019 --> 00:18:14.779
essentially out into the plumbing system. And

00:18:14.779 --> 00:18:17.200
then when you release the lever, the water rushes

00:18:17.200 --> 00:18:20.240
back in to fill the tank. And then when it comes

00:18:20.240 --> 00:18:23.000
up to an appropriate level, it actually lifts

00:18:23.000 --> 00:18:27.400
a balloon that essentially closes off the valve

00:18:27.400 --> 00:18:30.240
that's releasing the water. And you have a full

00:18:30.240 --> 00:18:32.599
tank of water to allow the water pressure to

00:18:32.599 --> 00:18:35.759
do the flushing. But if you've ever had a time

00:18:35.759 --> 00:18:38.160
where that bulb comes disconnected and you know

00:18:38.160 --> 00:18:40.960
that the water is just constantly running, you

00:18:40.960 --> 00:18:42.400
kind of want to think about like that with your

00:18:42.400 --> 00:18:45.140
body. Basically, if there's no signal to say,

00:18:45.200 --> 00:18:47.579
hey, we should stop secreting cortisol, that

00:18:47.579 --> 00:18:50.119
cortisol is going to keep being secreted. And

00:18:50.119 --> 00:18:52.559
like mom said, cortisol in the short term is

00:18:52.559 --> 00:18:55.900
great. We need it. It allows you to take action,

00:18:56.039 --> 00:18:58.220
especially if you're exercising. It is a great

00:18:58.220 --> 00:19:01.079
lever to allow you to move and exercise and use

00:19:01.079 --> 00:19:05.640
your muscles. And the body, just like chronic

00:19:05.640 --> 00:19:08.240
water in your toilet, is going to run up your

00:19:08.240 --> 00:19:10.400
water bills. It's going to potentially spill

00:19:10.400 --> 00:19:12.380
onto the floor. It's going to create that awful

00:19:12.380 --> 00:19:15.359
sound. So I think having that example in mind

00:19:15.359 --> 00:19:17.279
when thinking about feedback systems in your

00:19:17.279 --> 00:19:20.779
body is like cortisol isn't always bad. It's

00:19:20.779 --> 00:19:23.799
just chronic cortisol secretion. can potentially

00:19:23.799 --> 00:19:25.500
lead to negative outcomes down the road because

00:19:25.500 --> 00:19:27.220
i think sometimes people hear cortisol is like

00:19:27.220 --> 00:19:30.859
oh it's stress it's not good but no we we couldn't

00:19:30.859 --> 00:19:32.579
function if we didn't have cortisol you know

00:19:32.579 --> 00:19:35.299
because we we need like like josh said if we

00:19:35.299 --> 00:19:37.579
get sick we've that that kicks in to cause our

00:19:37.579 --> 00:19:39.839
immune system to kick in as well too and stuff

00:19:39.839 --> 00:19:45.440
so yeah so okay so little little tiny like pharmacology

00:19:45.440 --> 00:19:47.380
of stress or whatever so now we're going to move

00:19:47.380 --> 00:19:50.380
on to you know How do people think adaptogens

00:19:50.380 --> 00:19:52.740
work? And so why on earth did you talk about

00:19:52.740 --> 00:19:55.799
the HPA axis, Jenny? What are we talking about?

00:19:55.880 --> 00:19:58.180
And the reason is that a lot of people think

00:19:58.180 --> 00:20:00.759
these adaptogens help to stimulate the body's

00:20:00.759 --> 00:20:04.980
stress protection response. So I thought this

00:20:04.980 --> 00:20:07.140
was really interesting. There are three criteria

00:20:07.140 --> 00:20:11.019
that need to be met to be classified as an adaptogen.

00:20:11.660 --> 00:20:14.839
The first one is, and it just kind of made me

00:20:14.839 --> 00:20:16.980
laugh because I'm like, we could classify anything

00:20:16.980 --> 00:20:21.059
as an adaptogen. But I'm sorry, I'm supposed

00:20:21.059 --> 00:20:24.579
to be evidence -based only. So first of all,

00:20:24.640 --> 00:20:27.640
adaptogens are supposed to work non -specifically.

00:20:27.779 --> 00:20:30.920
They provide benefit for a wide range of conditions,

00:20:31.059 --> 00:20:33.299
including biological, physical, and chemical

00:20:33.299 --> 00:20:37.259
stress. So they are... thought to produce a response

00:20:37.259 --> 00:20:39.200
that allows the body to cope with stress. And

00:20:39.200 --> 00:20:42.339
there's a lot of theorized chemical elements

00:20:42.339 --> 00:20:44.299
in these adaptogens that are supposed to do that.

00:20:44.859 --> 00:20:47.720
The second thing, the criteria that has to be

00:20:47.720 --> 00:20:50.359
met to be classified as an adaptogen, is that

00:20:50.359 --> 00:20:53.380
it has to help the body maintain homeostasis,

00:20:53.460 --> 00:20:56.819
which is a big word for saying... balance. By

00:20:56.819 --> 00:20:59.500
any offsetting thing that could cause imbalance,

00:20:59.920 --> 00:21:02.319
that could cause, you know, so either an external

00:21:02.319 --> 00:21:05.319
stress or a health condition that could cause

00:21:05.319 --> 00:21:08.299
an imbalance in your body, this substance should

00:21:08.299 --> 00:21:10.259
help bring your body back into balance again.

00:21:11.500 --> 00:21:15.599
They are thought potentially that they may help

00:21:15.599 --> 00:21:17.660
to boost, they could help balance the immune

00:21:17.660 --> 00:21:21.099
system. potentially, I mean, I'm sorry, the endocrine

00:21:21.099 --> 00:21:26.299
system, potentially by having an effect on that

00:21:26.299 --> 00:21:30.400
HPA axis. But it's theoretical, pretty much.

00:21:30.440 --> 00:21:33.119
I could not find any data that actually really

00:21:33.119 --> 00:21:34.619
showed an effect. Yeah, these are the proposed

00:21:34.619 --> 00:21:36.900
mechanisms, but there's not evidence to suggest.

00:21:37.059 --> 00:21:40.480
It's basically plugging that cortisol leak is

00:21:40.480 --> 00:21:42.420
potentially what they'd be suggesting. And that

00:21:42.420 --> 00:21:44.019
they could also have an effect on the immune

00:21:44.019 --> 00:21:48.490
system. Energy usage, mood, you know, there are

00:21:48.490 --> 00:21:50.289
different things, but there's really been no

00:21:50.289 --> 00:21:54.549
definitive studies that have shown exactly how

00:21:54.549 --> 00:21:57.789
these things work. And the third criteria to

00:21:57.789 --> 00:21:59.930
be an adaptogen is that they cannot be harmful

00:21:59.930 --> 00:22:02.490
to the body. So again, those three criteria are

00:22:02.490 --> 00:22:06.190
that they work nonspecifically, that they must

00:22:06.190 --> 00:22:09.809
help the body maintain homeostasis or balance,

00:22:10.029 --> 00:22:14.630
and they can't be harmful. Yeah. Can I ask why

00:22:14.630 --> 00:22:17.470
that sticks in your craw a little bit? Like when

00:22:17.470 --> 00:22:19.490
you hear those criteria and you say, so this

00:22:19.490 --> 00:22:22.890
could be anything, you know, like you could say

00:22:22.890 --> 00:22:25.710
that for about water, right? It works non -specifically.

00:22:25.910 --> 00:22:28.750
Yeah. And interestingly, you know, too much water

00:22:28.750 --> 00:22:31.970
causes illness, you know? So it's, I think, so

00:22:31.970 --> 00:22:34.549
I think it's, I think. I think when I hear something

00:22:34.549 --> 00:22:37.650
that talks about that something needs to be nonspecific,

00:22:37.710 --> 00:22:41.029
I'm like, then what are you, how do you measure

00:22:41.029 --> 00:22:43.410
whether or not it works or not? You know, what

00:22:43.410 --> 00:22:45.309
on earth are you looking at is kind of where

00:22:45.309 --> 00:22:47.910
I'm coming in when I hear that nonspecific thing.

00:22:48.089 --> 00:22:50.890
Yeah, that's a good question. I feel like based

00:22:50.890 --> 00:22:53.309
on some of the stuff that I read. there seems

00:22:53.309 --> 00:22:56.089
to be two schools of thought, right? There's

00:22:56.089 --> 00:22:59.089
the evidence -based approach, which is very reductionist.

00:22:59.109 --> 00:23:01.970
Like we're going to design this drug that binds

00:23:01.970 --> 00:23:04.569
to this receptor and this receptor is going to

00:23:04.569 --> 00:23:07.470
release this peptide that's going to cause this

00:23:07.470 --> 00:23:10.089
effect in this cell. It's very well understood.

00:23:10.750 --> 00:23:13.390
Whereas I feel like in some of these more holistic

00:23:13.390 --> 00:23:17.309
methods, it's more about how you feel. It seems

00:23:17.309 --> 00:23:21.140
to be more about the just... the state of what

00:23:21.140 --> 00:23:24.819
it's like to be that thing. And it almost seems

00:23:24.819 --> 00:23:28.660
to be folks either want to, I don't know what

00:23:28.660 --> 00:23:30.500
the opposite of reductionist is, but it's like

00:23:30.500 --> 00:23:32.559
this idea of just seeing something, maybe holistic

00:23:32.559 --> 00:23:36.500
expansion. Yeah. Because I really do think a

00:23:36.500 --> 00:23:40.839
lot of people in this space really see their

00:23:40.839 --> 00:23:43.259
relationship, not just to themselves, but also

00:23:43.259 --> 00:23:46.440
to nature as this very like connected experience.

00:23:47.259 --> 00:23:50.210
And I think. that's why a lot of things that

00:23:50.210 --> 00:23:52.750
are natural or things that come from the earth

00:23:52.750 --> 00:23:54.990
are very popular. It's like, well, I'm consuming

00:23:54.990 --> 00:23:58.109
something of nature. I want to be one with it.

00:23:58.170 --> 00:24:00.910
I want to be one with myself. And so you kind

00:24:00.910 --> 00:24:03.009
of tend to think of yourself as kind of this

00:24:03.009 --> 00:24:06.430
ecosystem. And I think taking some of these substances

00:24:06.430 --> 00:24:09.269
is very much like a placebo. And we'll talk about

00:24:09.269 --> 00:24:12.170
placebo a little bit later on, but it just, I

00:24:12.170 --> 00:24:13.789
think it's like a kind of like a little ritual.

00:24:13.890 --> 00:24:16.970
It's like when I'm taking this thing, It signifies

00:24:16.970 --> 00:24:19.450
that I'm this type of person who cares about

00:24:19.450 --> 00:24:21.750
this thing. And I think if you're like, I want

00:24:21.750 --> 00:24:24.509
to reduce my stress by feeling connected to the

00:24:24.509 --> 00:24:27.490
earth and consuming this root, I think just even

00:24:27.490 --> 00:24:29.990
that belief alone might be enough for people.

00:24:30.150 --> 00:24:32.910
And I don't think the mechanism matters. I actually

00:24:32.910 --> 00:24:35.009
think the mechanism from talking to folks like

00:24:35.009 --> 00:24:37.349
this, I think the mechanism actually is boring

00:24:37.349 --> 00:24:40.069
to them. And it actually gets away at the beauty

00:24:40.069 --> 00:24:42.829
of feeling expansive. I think they see reductionism

00:24:42.829 --> 00:24:46.789
as a limitation. of their relation to the world

00:24:46.789 --> 00:24:48.930
and also to themselves okay where someone like

00:24:48.930 --> 00:24:51.069
you and me is like you can't really claim that

00:24:51.069 --> 00:24:53.650
it works and i don't think for folks like this

00:24:53.650 --> 00:24:57.349
that's what matters so i could be talking um

00:24:57.349 --> 00:25:00.730
i apologize if i'm misrepresenting somebody's

00:25:00.730 --> 00:25:03.509
view on this but i just think that there are

00:25:03.509 --> 00:25:06.130
two different ways of talking about health and

00:25:06.130 --> 00:25:08.309
medicine so i don't know how you feel about that

00:25:08.309 --> 00:25:12.349
or how you well i mean i just think that um And

00:25:12.349 --> 00:25:14.650
we'll get into this, but it's like, you know,

00:25:14.670 --> 00:25:17.750
nothing that we ingest into our bodies is completely

00:25:17.750 --> 00:25:21.650
without some sort of side effect, adverse effect

00:25:21.650 --> 00:25:24.190
or whatever and stuff. So I think, or drug interaction,

00:25:24.490 --> 00:25:26.930
even these supplements, if you're having to take

00:25:26.930 --> 00:25:29.210
other medications, it could potentially cause

00:25:29.210 --> 00:25:30.829
a drug interaction as well too. So I think that

00:25:30.829 --> 00:25:33.690
we can't. assume that just because we're taking

00:25:33.690 --> 00:25:36.289
something, it doesn't mean that it's innocuous

00:25:36.289 --> 00:25:39.170
or like harmless. With the quote that you said,

00:25:39.230 --> 00:25:40.730
if there's no side effect, there's no effect.

00:25:40.950 --> 00:25:46.150
Right. Yeah. And I share the view of my mom.

00:25:46.210 --> 00:25:48.549
It's like, whether you're putting something in

00:25:48.549 --> 00:25:50.970
your mouth that's natural, pharmaceutical or

00:25:50.970 --> 00:25:53.289
synthetic, it's still going in your body and

00:25:53.289 --> 00:25:56.410
it's doing something. Right. Whether you, whatever

00:25:56.410 --> 00:25:59.730
your belief about it is, it's still a molecule

00:25:59.730 --> 00:26:03.259
that's doing something in your body. um and that's

00:26:03.259 --> 00:26:05.880
kind of how we approach it so we don't see a

00:26:05.880 --> 00:26:09.480
difference between ashwagandha and acetaminophen

00:26:09.480 --> 00:26:12.599
like these are two molecules or substances that

00:26:12.599 --> 00:26:14.779
you put in your body that have an effect right

00:26:14.779 --> 00:26:17.940
regardless of the ancient wisdom that it came

00:26:17.940 --> 00:26:20.740
from or we don't we don't we're not trying to

00:26:20.740 --> 00:26:22.839
disrespect it but it's just the idea we just

00:26:22.839 --> 00:26:25.160
we don't see a difference between the two and

00:26:25.160 --> 00:26:28.079
i think too i think it's just a it's a lot of

00:26:28.079 --> 00:26:32.549
medications that are are prescriptions that are

00:26:32.549 --> 00:26:37.049
approved came from plants, plants, you know,

00:26:37.049 --> 00:26:40.109
you know, different types and stuff. So yeah.

00:26:40.529 --> 00:26:43.150
Aspirin big came from the bark of the willow

00:26:43.150 --> 00:26:45.289
tree, you know, and stuff. So yeah. I think taxol

00:26:45.289 --> 00:26:48.190
is a, it's an anti cancer drug that came from,

00:26:48.230 --> 00:26:50.609
I think bark of a, I can't remember another bark

00:26:50.609 --> 00:26:53.250
of a tree, but a lot of these things are great

00:26:53.250 --> 00:26:55.089
starting points. And then you use the evidence

00:26:55.089 --> 00:26:58.660
-based method to, to find out. If they had an

00:26:58.660 --> 00:27:00.680
effect. And then you can also find the chemical

00:27:00.680 --> 00:27:03.400
within the bark that is like, oh, what is the

00:27:03.400 --> 00:27:05.599
specific chemical within this bark that is actually

00:27:05.599 --> 00:27:08.160
useful? Right. And then you can help. And I think,

00:27:08.160 --> 00:27:11.279
too, on another class of medications that may

00:27:11.279 --> 00:27:15.259
be a greater, a better comparator for things

00:27:15.259 --> 00:27:24.670
like the adaptogens would be some of the. Psychiatric

00:27:24.670 --> 00:27:28.009
medications like for schizophrenia or psychosis

00:27:28.009 --> 00:27:32.750
or bipolar disorder or anxiety, some of them

00:27:32.750 --> 00:27:35.009
have specific mechanisms. So we know exactly

00:27:35.009 --> 00:27:38.829
which neurotransmitter they're targeting or drugs

00:27:38.829 --> 00:27:41.589
and epilepsy. But sometimes we don't necessarily

00:27:41.589 --> 00:27:45.230
know. And so the way, even though we don't exactly

00:27:45.230 --> 00:27:48.240
know that. absolute mechanism of action there

00:27:48.240 --> 00:27:52.599
are scales and things to measure that when that

00:27:52.599 --> 00:27:55.180
patient is administered that medication that

00:27:55.180 --> 00:27:57.700
we can see that they are actually there is a

00:27:57.700 --> 00:28:00.619
there is actual a numerical value that can be

00:28:00.619 --> 00:28:02.599
measured to see that they're getting better based

00:28:02.599 --> 00:28:04.559
on that taking that medication and stuff too

00:28:04.559 --> 00:28:07.240
i like that yeah and i think yeah going from

00:28:07.240 --> 00:28:11.299
the Like we're trying to put a number on everything

00:28:11.299 --> 00:28:13.019
to give something an objective measure because

00:28:13.019 --> 00:28:15.579
I think a lot of times in evidence -based spaces,

00:28:15.859 --> 00:28:19.000
we kind of discount our subjective feeling. It's

00:28:19.000 --> 00:28:21.700
like, well, you could feel a certain way depending

00:28:21.700 --> 00:28:23.920
on a lot of different reasons, which is why we

00:28:23.920 --> 00:28:26.240
do randomized control trials, right? Like placebo

00:28:26.240 --> 00:28:30.079
will be having a certain belief about what they're

00:28:30.079 --> 00:28:32.839
taking versus actually the drug of interest.

00:28:33.059 --> 00:28:35.839
And then you compare the two. And the last thing

00:28:35.839 --> 00:28:36.940
I'll say, because I know we've been talking about

00:28:36.940 --> 00:28:39.170
this. But I think it's really interesting. I

00:28:39.170 --> 00:28:41.069
think there's also kind of this bias of like,

00:28:41.130 --> 00:28:44.190
well, that's Eastern medicine. This is like Ayurvedic

00:28:44.190 --> 00:28:46.890
or traditional Chinese. And then we have Western

00:28:46.890 --> 00:28:49.470
medicine over here. But just to remind everybody

00:28:49.470 --> 00:28:52.569
that in Western quote unquote medicine, we believed

00:28:52.569 --> 00:28:54.750
in the four humors. We also believed in this

00:28:54.750 --> 00:28:56.970
balance system that you had to balance everything.

00:28:57.089 --> 00:28:59.430
George Washington was famously bled to death

00:28:59.430 --> 00:29:02.450
because he thought that he had bad humors inside

00:29:02.450 --> 00:29:03.990
of them. And they thought that you needed to

00:29:03.990 --> 00:29:06.210
do bloodletting to get some of those humors out,

00:29:06.329 --> 00:29:09.670
which is a terrible technique. Do you want to

00:29:09.670 --> 00:29:12.329
tell your, no, that doesn't apply here. Sorry.

00:29:12.450 --> 00:29:14.930
Yeah. We'll come back to that. But it's this

00:29:14.930 --> 00:29:20.119
idea that. We've inherited a lot of these ancient

00:29:20.119 --> 00:29:24.279
systems because a lot of times the people who

00:29:24.279 --> 00:29:28.200
survived taking these things were alive to tell

00:29:28.200 --> 00:29:29.779
the story of the things that they did or they

00:29:29.779 --> 00:29:32.519
took. So the person who survived the bloodletting,

00:29:32.559 --> 00:29:35.579
the person who survived when they took Asian

00:29:35.579 --> 00:29:38.440
ginseng can now tell the story. I lived because

00:29:38.440 --> 00:29:40.440
of this. But you don't get to hear about the

00:29:40.440 --> 00:29:42.920
people who died because of that. So a lot of

00:29:42.920 --> 00:29:45.509
times, a lot of these traditions... live on because

00:29:45.509 --> 00:29:47.089
of the people who were alive. And there could

00:29:47.089 --> 00:29:49.109
be some truth to some of the claims that they

00:29:49.109 --> 00:29:51.730
make, but that's why we believe that the evidence

00:29:51.730 --> 00:29:54.490
should also confirm those people's stories. We

00:29:54.490 --> 00:29:56.210
never want to deny those people's stories, but

00:29:56.210 --> 00:29:58.369
we also want to say, is that really what's going

00:29:58.369 --> 00:30:01.470
on? Right, right. So again, just a reminder,

00:30:01.769 --> 00:30:05.170
adaptogens don't prevent stressful events, but

00:30:05.170 --> 00:30:07.549
they are thought to improve the body's response

00:30:07.549 --> 00:30:15.150
to stress once it happens. I'm just looking to

00:30:15.150 --> 00:30:17.650
see, I've really pretty much, I'm looking at

00:30:17.650 --> 00:30:20.190
my notes here. So, cause I obviously I'm not

00:30:20.190 --> 00:30:23.289
speaking completely off the cuff or on the cuff

00:30:23.289 --> 00:30:25.970
or whatever and stuff. So, so I think we've kind

00:30:25.970 --> 00:30:28.789
of covered all this stuff. So anyway, so, so

00:30:28.789 --> 00:30:31.569
now it's like, you're like, well, what are adaptogens?

00:30:31.730 --> 00:30:34.170
And so that was interesting. It's like, cause

00:30:34.170 --> 00:30:36.910
I, I really didn't know what an adapt, what was

00:30:36.910 --> 00:30:39.920
considered an adaptogen. What specific substances

00:30:39.920 --> 00:30:42.920
are like, how do you get into this club? Yeah.

00:30:42.920 --> 00:30:45.240
Yeah. What do you take that? And that makes you

00:30:45.240 --> 00:30:48.619
say, I'm an adaptogen user, you know? So, um,

00:30:48.740 --> 00:30:53.339
so I identified 10 different agents and again,

00:30:53.420 --> 00:30:56.880
there's. Probably more, but these seem to be

00:30:56.880 --> 00:30:59.700
the ones that were cited in the resources that

00:30:59.700 --> 00:31:01.740
I was looking at most commonly. And so I put

00:31:01.740 --> 00:31:04.339
them in alphabetical order, not in any order

00:31:04.339 --> 00:31:08.720
of use or importance, but just kind of what I

00:31:08.720 --> 00:31:10.400
found in the literature. And basically what I

00:31:10.400 --> 00:31:13.240
did was I looked at the name of the agent and

00:31:13.240 --> 00:31:15.740
it's. And we, you know, when we, when we do our

00:31:15.740 --> 00:31:17.519
podcast, we don't really get caught in the weeds

00:31:17.519 --> 00:31:20.579
too much about how things work or dosages and

00:31:20.579 --> 00:31:22.160
stuff, but it's just, it's just kind of a global

00:31:22.160 --> 00:31:24.759
kind of like, this is what we found. And this

00:31:24.759 --> 00:31:27.119
is what, why these things are considered adaptogens.

00:31:27.619 --> 00:31:30.039
So the first one, and I may butcher a lot of

00:31:30.039 --> 00:31:33.519
these names, but the first one is astragalus

00:31:33.519 --> 00:31:39.579
membranaceus. And this is an agent that is supposedly

00:31:39.579 --> 00:31:42.700
touted to improve immune response. And it may

00:31:42.700 --> 00:31:47.079
have antioxidant effects by inhibiting free radical

00:31:47.079 --> 00:31:50.019
production. So that means free radicals are things

00:31:50.019 --> 00:31:51.579
that can get released in your body and they cause

00:31:51.579 --> 00:31:53.940
a lot of toxic effects. And so if it had these

00:31:53.940 --> 00:31:56.519
antioxidant effects, it could maybe help. And

00:31:56.519 --> 00:31:59.180
so again, you've got some... And let me also

00:31:59.180 --> 00:32:01.799
say, and as I went and looked at all of these

00:32:01.799 --> 00:32:07.140
adaptogens, especially in one of my more uh respected

00:32:07.140 --> 00:32:11.640
resources they've been used in a ton of different

00:32:11.640 --> 00:32:15.839
disease states but there aren't data necessarily

00:32:15.839 --> 00:32:19.279
to confirm that they're actually effective you

00:32:19.279 --> 00:32:21.859
know so okay so they're purported to be used

00:32:21.859 --> 00:32:24.920
for things like you know improving immune function

00:32:24.920 --> 00:32:27.640
or you know controlling the mechanisms and he

00:32:27.640 --> 00:32:30.140
likes here's the here's the uses some of the

00:32:30.140 --> 00:32:35.039
uses for astragalus astragalus astragalus Sorry.

00:32:35.359 --> 00:32:39.099
It's okay. Cancer. Or it could protect against

00:32:39.099 --> 00:32:43.099
heart disease or aging or upper respiratory tract

00:32:43.099 --> 00:32:45.920
infection it could prevent. But there aren't

00:32:45.920 --> 00:32:49.759
really any. studies that really support this.

00:32:49.960 --> 00:32:53.039
The studies that are available for this particular

00:32:53.039 --> 00:32:56.759
agent are older, they're lower quality, and they

00:32:56.759 --> 00:32:59.700
really don't have any data that really recommend

00:32:59.700 --> 00:33:02.460
its use for any indication. And as far as adverse

00:33:02.460 --> 00:33:05.759
effects associated with this agent are concerned,

00:33:05.980 --> 00:33:08.279
the thing that I found that stood out most was

00:33:08.279 --> 00:33:12.680
allergic reactions and stuff. So astragalus is

00:33:12.680 --> 00:33:16.700
one agent. The next one is cordyceps. I thought

00:33:16.700 --> 00:33:18.900
this was really interesting. It's actually a

00:33:18.900 --> 00:33:22.259
fungus, but even though it is a fungus, which

00:33:22.259 --> 00:33:25.730
would be more like. plant -based kind of or nature

00:33:25.730 --> 00:33:28.710
-based you know kind of they're very different

00:33:28.710 --> 00:33:32.369
than plants yeah sorry mr biologist um it's it's

00:33:32.369 --> 00:33:35.190
nature -based or um it's not an animal anyway

00:33:35.190 --> 00:33:38.710
but um but it's actually interestingly cordyceps

00:33:38.710 --> 00:33:41.670
it's what i found was that it's primarily made

00:33:41.670 --> 00:33:44.609
in a laboratory setting for for commercial use

00:33:44.609 --> 00:33:46.369
even though it's a fungus so i thought that was

00:33:46.369 --> 00:33:49.059
really interesting And it has immune boosting

00:33:49.059 --> 00:33:52.400
and suppressing properties. And again, in animals,

00:33:52.559 --> 00:33:54.779
they thought maybe it had some anti -cancer effects,

00:33:55.000 --> 00:33:58.000
or could it possibly improve heart health or

00:33:58.000 --> 00:34:02.799
anti -aging? But they're really... There were

00:34:02.799 --> 00:34:04.839
no well -controlled trials that supported this.

00:34:04.940 --> 00:34:08.099
And it also can cause a lot of gastrointestinal

00:34:08.099 --> 00:34:10.760
adverse effects. It can cause constipation, diarrhea.

00:34:11.159 --> 00:34:13.380
It can also cause dry mouth and some abdominal

00:34:13.380 --> 00:34:15.380
discomfort. So again, like I said, they're not

00:34:15.380 --> 00:34:17.280
without some things that go along with them.

00:34:18.460 --> 00:34:24.639
The next one is called Eleuthero, E -L -E -U

00:34:24.639 --> 00:34:28.119
-T -H -E -R -O, or Siberian ginseng is another

00:34:28.119 --> 00:34:31.099
name for this one. And it has proposed that it

00:34:31.099 --> 00:34:34.800
could, possibly modulate that hpa access and

00:34:34.800 --> 00:34:39.139
help control um uh cortisol levels as well as

00:34:39.139 --> 00:34:42.340
nitric oxide as well too which is in um i think

00:34:42.340 --> 00:34:44.659
it can have effects on the heart uh improvement

00:34:44.659 --> 00:34:47.920
in nitric oxide yeah also blood flow and vasodilation

00:34:47.920 --> 00:34:53.820
so so it's it is actually labeled and and potentially

00:34:53.820 --> 00:34:56.920
could be used for stress. Other things that potentially

00:34:56.920 --> 00:34:59.400
could be used for because of its maybe immune

00:34:59.400 --> 00:35:02.300
modulation type stuff is rheumatoid arthritis

00:35:02.300 --> 00:35:06.119
or flu or upper respiratory infections. But again,

00:35:06.239 --> 00:35:07.920
like I said, no data are available. And then

00:35:07.920 --> 00:35:09.800
again, it is another agent that has a lot of

00:35:09.800 --> 00:35:12.079
gastrointestinal, maybe adverse effects associated

00:35:12.079 --> 00:35:16.260
with it. Another one that's called Reishi, it's

00:35:16.260 --> 00:35:18.239
got a scientific name as well, but we'll just

00:35:18.239 --> 00:35:22.840
leave it for Reishi. It touts itself as its mechanism

00:35:22.840 --> 00:35:24.920
of action is having immune boosting effects.

00:35:25.260 --> 00:35:29.079
So could it be used in reducing stress or reducing

00:35:29.079 --> 00:35:32.219
the incidence of upper respiratory infections?

00:35:32.559 --> 00:35:37.199
Again, limited clinical studies and side effects

00:35:37.199 --> 00:35:39.340
that I saw with it were dizziness, dry mouth,

00:35:39.400 --> 00:35:42.719
and it can also be a skin irritant. The next

00:35:42.719 --> 00:35:46.829
one is called holy basil or Tulsi. It supposedly

00:35:46.829 --> 00:35:50.269
has anti -stress effects without a real specific

00:35:50.269 --> 00:35:53.989
mechanism of action being described. So does

00:35:53.989 --> 00:35:56.409
it improve stress or reduce stress or improve

00:35:56.409 --> 00:35:58.809
anxiety? Those are the things that it's touted

00:35:58.809 --> 00:36:01.710
for. But again, limited clinical trial data.

00:36:01.869 --> 00:36:06.480
And it can also cause diarrhea and nausea. Panax

00:36:06.480 --> 00:36:09.820
ginseng is the next one or Asian ginseng. It

00:36:09.820 --> 00:36:12.460
has some antioxidant effects potentially or anti

00:36:12.460 --> 00:36:15.780
-fatigue effects. Could it be an adaptogen and

00:36:15.780 --> 00:36:18.840
have anti -stress effects? It has shown some

00:36:18.840 --> 00:36:21.380
potential effects on the HPA axis in animals,

00:36:21.519 --> 00:36:22.940
but we don't know whether or not that happens

00:36:22.940 --> 00:36:25.940
in humans or not. So does it improve physical

00:36:25.940 --> 00:36:28.659
performance or can it help with chronic fatigue

00:36:28.659 --> 00:36:32.039
syndrome or fibromyalgia or improve cognitive

00:36:32.039 --> 00:36:34.380
function or could it protect against the flu?

00:36:34.460 --> 00:36:36.400
Those are things that... it's touted to be used

00:36:36.400 --> 00:36:40.380
for. Again, limited clinical trial data. There's

00:36:40.380 --> 00:36:43.599
also, so that's Panax ginseng. There's also a

00:36:43.599 --> 00:36:48.800
Panax quincafolius, which is known as American

00:36:48.800 --> 00:36:52.420
ginseng. It's going to be similar to Panax ginseng

00:36:52.420 --> 00:36:56.719
as far as what it's touted to be used for. There

00:36:56.719 --> 00:36:59.019
is some clinical trial data with American ginseng

00:36:59.019 --> 00:37:01.400
with the results being mixed. And it was also,

00:37:01.480 --> 00:37:04.699
the data were older with smaller with smaller

00:37:04.699 --> 00:37:08.380
sample sizes so again if you saw something that

00:37:08.380 --> 00:37:12.900
was maybe effective in 2003 or 2005 and it's

00:37:12.900 --> 00:37:16.760
2025 why haven't we seen more you know so it

00:37:16.760 --> 00:37:19.019
may that that always when i see things like that

00:37:19.019 --> 00:37:21.599
it makes me think hmm i mean it may not have

00:37:21.599 --> 00:37:23.960
been as good as it as they thought it was initially

00:37:23.960 --> 00:37:25.360
and stuff when they see yeah i think another

00:37:25.360 --> 00:37:28.019
thing along with the idea of evidence and clinical

00:37:28.019 --> 00:37:31.239
trials is like you want to have results be repeated

00:37:31.639 --> 00:37:34.880
Like one study can say we have a positive or

00:37:34.880 --> 00:37:36.780
statistically significant effect. Great point.

00:37:36.880 --> 00:37:39.599
But if the other nine don't, then it probably

00:37:39.599 --> 00:37:41.920
just means that that study was a bit of a fluke.

00:37:41.940 --> 00:37:44.219
So if you should have an effect, you should see

00:37:44.219 --> 00:37:47.340
that most of the time with each study. It gives

00:37:47.340 --> 00:37:49.039
this idea that you're on to something. Great.

00:37:49.119 --> 00:37:52.380
That's a great point, Josh. And also I'm wondering

00:37:52.380 --> 00:37:54.179
too is like I know you need to go through your

00:37:54.179 --> 00:37:59.200
list. No, it doesn't matter. If these – substances

00:37:59.200 --> 00:38:02.440
became more popular recently. I'm just wondering

00:38:02.440 --> 00:38:04.900
if the scientific community is catching up to

00:38:04.900 --> 00:38:09.420
studying these more rigorously. If we have these

00:38:09.420 --> 00:38:12.239
kind of sparse studies from the past, I'm wondering

00:38:12.239 --> 00:38:13.840
if there's going to be renewed interest now.

00:38:14.280 --> 00:38:16.619
that the market is, you know, people are consuming

00:38:16.619 --> 00:38:19.059
these things more readily. Right. I'd say a lot

00:38:19.059 --> 00:38:21.360
of these started getting used after the pandemic.

00:38:21.940 --> 00:38:24.019
That was such a stressful time for the whole

00:38:24.019 --> 00:38:27.840
world and stuff. And so, so yeah. But I had,

00:38:27.880 --> 00:38:30.840
I didn't really see a real uptick in a lot of

00:38:30.840 --> 00:38:32.900
the clinical trials with these agents, but again,

00:38:32.980 --> 00:38:35.219
there were, because there were so many of them,

00:38:35.239 --> 00:38:38.420
it, I mean, and time limitations for us to prepare

00:38:38.420 --> 00:38:40.380
this, it just made it almost impossible for me

00:38:40.380 --> 00:38:42.619
to go through all the literature, but even so

00:38:42.619 --> 00:38:45.300
there, Again, the trials that were available,

00:38:45.380 --> 00:38:47.739
I was not really that impressed with and stuff.

00:38:47.900 --> 00:38:50.820
And somebody could certainly refute me on that

00:38:50.820 --> 00:38:56.199
as well. Rhodiola rosea is the next one. It supposedly

00:38:56.199 --> 00:38:58.739
has some adaptogenic effects and may improve

00:38:58.739 --> 00:39:02.460
mental and physical fatigue. It's been shown

00:39:02.460 --> 00:39:05.559
to provide protection from stressors in animal

00:39:05.559 --> 00:39:08.139
studies, but could it increase work capacity

00:39:08.139 --> 00:39:10.889
or decrease fatigue? You know, those are just

00:39:10.889 --> 00:39:13.250
things that it's been touted for, but the clinical

00:39:13.250 --> 00:39:15.809
trial data are ambiguous. And that's just like

00:39:15.809 --> 00:39:18.630
they, some might say maybe yeah, and then some

00:39:18.630 --> 00:39:21.130
might say maybe no. And so not everybody's saying

00:39:21.130 --> 00:39:25.210
the same thing. So the next one is Shisandra.

00:39:25.989 --> 00:39:28.670
Again, it supposedly has some adaptogenic effects.

00:39:29.610 --> 00:39:32.190
And in animal studies, it did show some increased

00:39:32.190 --> 00:39:35.110
concentration and endurance and decreased fatigue,

00:39:35.170 --> 00:39:41.240
but we cannot, we cannot, we cannot trans, pose

00:39:41.240 --> 00:39:44.679
results that we find in animal studies onto human

00:39:44.679 --> 00:39:47.639
beings. They're just not the same. We take those

00:39:47.639 --> 00:39:50.320
data from animal studies and then we do human

00:39:50.320 --> 00:39:53.019
clinical trial data to see whether or not we

00:39:53.019 --> 00:39:56.960
can repeat those results because we're not the

00:39:56.960 --> 00:39:58.820
same as animals. Our bodies are just not the

00:39:58.820 --> 00:40:04.090
same. These, again, that Schisandra, again, has

00:40:04.090 --> 00:40:07.889
limited clinical trial data as far as its benefits

00:40:07.889 --> 00:40:10.550
in physical performance, endurance, or stress

00:40:10.550 --> 00:40:14.730
relief. And then the last one is called, the

00:40:14.730 --> 00:40:22.179
scientific name is Withania somnifera. I should,

00:40:22.300 --> 00:40:24.960
anyway, but it's, this is ashwagandha. And this

00:40:24.960 --> 00:40:27.739
one has, this agent is probably the one that

00:40:27.739 --> 00:40:31.539
people hear about the most. It has more clinical

00:40:31.539 --> 00:40:34.800
trial data. available for it. There were some

00:40:34.800 --> 00:40:38.440
positive data that showed its usage in stress,

00:40:38.679 --> 00:40:41.460
anxiety, and sleep, because it may have some

00:40:41.460 --> 00:40:44.099
central nervous system effects on cortisol levels,

00:40:44.300 --> 00:40:46.480
and it potentially could have effect on some

00:40:46.480 --> 00:40:49.460
other neurotransmitters in the brain that could

00:40:49.460 --> 00:40:53.179
help with either like anxiety or sedation. And

00:40:53.179 --> 00:40:55.739
so it has been touted for use as an anti -stress

00:40:55.739 --> 00:40:58.980
agent, an antidepressant, an anxiolytic, which

00:40:58.980 --> 00:41:02.159
means an anti -anxiety agent, or possibly a sleep

00:41:02.159 --> 00:41:06.289
aid. and some other potential uses as well. It

00:41:06.289 --> 00:41:08.349
does have some gastrointestinal side effects.

00:41:08.809 --> 00:41:12.130
And the one thing about ashwagandha that came

00:41:12.130 --> 00:41:17.369
out more than with other agents was that this

00:41:17.369 --> 00:41:20.610
agent may have some liver injury associated with

00:41:20.610 --> 00:41:22.329
it. So the other things, you get a little upset

00:41:22.329 --> 00:41:24.469
stomach, maybe you have some nausea, maybe you

00:41:24.469 --> 00:41:27.800
have some vomiting. rarely or whatever but when

00:41:27.800 --> 00:41:29.619
you talk about liver injury that's significant

00:41:29.619 --> 00:41:34.820
and so so this is not innocuous so and i again

00:41:34.820 --> 00:41:40.010
i did not take a deep dive into um Is it dose

00:41:40.010 --> 00:41:44.369
related or is it duration related as far as the

00:41:44.369 --> 00:41:46.630
liver injury? But it's just something to be aware

00:41:46.630 --> 00:41:50.090
of. Yeah, that's a crummy thing about this space

00:41:50.090 --> 00:41:53.070
in the supplement space because not all ashwagandha

00:41:53.070 --> 00:41:56.690
tablets are created equally. And one study could

00:41:56.690 --> 00:41:59.170
be about you give somebody an ashwagandha tea

00:41:59.170 --> 00:42:00.849
and the other one is you give them a tincture

00:42:00.849 --> 00:42:03.869
and the other one you give them. So it's so hard

00:42:03.869 --> 00:42:07.070
to standardize. And basically what the definition

00:42:07.070 --> 00:42:10.570
of an adaption is that it's nonspecific. So it's

00:42:10.570 --> 00:42:13.409
like, okay, if it's nonspecific, then that means

00:42:13.409 --> 00:42:15.690
that it can also help in all these areas. But

00:42:15.690 --> 00:42:17.409
that also means it can hurt in all these areas.

00:42:17.469 --> 00:42:19.409
Like it's not going to know exactly how to bring

00:42:19.409 --> 00:42:22.139
something in or out of balance. Right. Yeah.

00:42:22.300 --> 00:42:24.519
The other thing, too, with the clinical trials

00:42:24.519 --> 00:42:27.559
that are available, the longest I think that

00:42:27.559 --> 00:42:30.820
I saw with ashwagandha was 12 weeks. So we're

00:42:30.820 --> 00:42:33.179
talking about three months. So we're talking

00:42:33.179 --> 00:42:36.679
about relatively short term use of these agents.

00:42:37.340 --> 00:42:39.840
And really, I think all of them, any of the studies

00:42:39.840 --> 00:42:42.380
were not very long. So we're not talking about

00:42:42.380 --> 00:42:44.059
you don't use these things for a year. There

00:42:44.059 --> 00:42:47.539
are no data that showed. that you know so i mean

00:42:47.539 --> 00:42:49.320
do you are you having a stressful time in your

00:42:49.320 --> 00:42:52.699
life and you need something for a month maybe

00:42:52.699 --> 00:42:55.219
you know and stuff but these are not long -term

00:42:55.219 --> 00:42:57.539
use agents i've found no clinical trial data

00:42:57.539 --> 00:43:00.860
even the bad clinical trials that use it for

00:43:00.860 --> 00:43:03.179
long term yes we're kind of ignorant about that

00:43:03.179 --> 00:43:05.000
and i imagine if people are using it for sleep

00:43:05.000 --> 00:43:06.699
they might use it every night they could you

00:43:06.699 --> 00:43:09.579
know something melatonin right um so and we just

00:43:09.579 --> 00:43:13.050
don't know you know, the appropriate safe dosage

00:43:13.050 --> 00:43:15.969
that you can take every day and be fine. I imagine

00:43:15.969 --> 00:43:17.909
a lot of those damages are from people who take

00:43:17.909 --> 00:43:19.969
really high doses. We just don't know what those

00:43:19.969 --> 00:43:23.210
are. I mean, we could definitely look that up

00:43:23.210 --> 00:43:25.449
if somebody needs to know that and stuff. The

00:43:25.449 --> 00:43:32.590
other thing, so as we plan these podcasts, I'll

00:43:32.590 --> 00:43:34.909
be walking through my house and I'll think, what's

00:43:34.909 --> 00:43:37.150
the next thing that I would want to know? And

00:43:37.150 --> 00:43:39.739
the next thing that I wanted to know was, How

00:43:39.739 --> 00:43:42.460
much do these things cost? You know, because,

00:43:42.519 --> 00:43:46.340
oh my gosh, I found this particular like market

00:43:46.340 --> 00:43:50.780
trend study and these agents are sold. I mean,

00:43:50.800 --> 00:43:53.559
that's a global market for them. And in 2023,

00:43:54.039 --> 00:43:59.150
10 .3. billion dollars were spent on adaptogens

00:43:59.150 --> 00:44:01.750
all over that was those were us dollars i think

00:44:01.750 --> 00:44:03.670
it's us dollars but i think it was worldwide

00:44:03.670 --> 00:44:06.610
i think but i'm not positive it was worldwide

00:44:06.610 --> 00:44:09.349
but but it's supposed to continue to increase

00:44:09.349 --> 00:44:14.250
by seven percent a year for the next five years

00:44:14.250 --> 00:44:18.369
and stuff so this is a really big thing in the

00:44:18.369 --> 00:44:21.429
market. I, and again, I say it's $10 .3 billion.

00:44:21.650 --> 00:44:23.570
Sounds like an awful lot of money to me and stuff,

00:44:23.610 --> 00:44:25.949
but I didn't compare it either to, you know,

00:44:25.949 --> 00:44:27.889
like if you have to take Eloquist, you know,

00:44:27.909 --> 00:44:30.289
what's the market, you know, I still think pharmaceutical

00:44:30.289 --> 00:44:33.170
companies still have a much larger market share.

00:44:33.309 --> 00:44:35.130
I mean, I think, I think you're right. I think

00:44:35.130 --> 00:44:37.269
it's hundreds of billions of dollars and stuff.

00:44:37.329 --> 00:44:40.050
So. Yeah. And, but obviously those companies

00:44:40.050 --> 00:44:44.429
are making a lot more products and this is a

00:44:44.429 --> 00:44:47.360
very niche space. And I think it's. I think it

00:44:47.360 --> 00:44:51.500
is kind of geared towards those people. We call

00:44:51.500 --> 00:44:53.440
them, at least the people that I affectionately

00:44:53.440 --> 00:44:56.739
call the health optimizers or the biohackers.

00:44:56.760 --> 00:45:00.360
They're always looking for little edges to make

00:45:00.360 --> 00:45:02.840
themselves just a little bit healthier. Right.

00:45:03.079 --> 00:45:06.619
And yeah. And that is it. That's the people who

00:45:06.619 --> 00:45:09.780
use these. The consumers that use adaptogens

00:45:09.780 --> 00:45:13.980
are looking for health benefits and stress relieving

00:45:13.980 --> 00:45:16.780
activity. So wanting to just have a like a more

00:45:16.780 --> 00:45:19.579
balanced life, you know, stuff. So, yeah. And

00:45:19.579 --> 00:45:21.719
like I said to the COVID pandemic was really

00:45:21.719 --> 00:45:24.260
a big driver for adaptogen use. So I thought

00:45:24.260 --> 00:45:26.840
so again, I thought, OK, well, is this going

00:45:26.840 --> 00:45:28.980
to break somebody's bank by using these things?

00:45:29.019 --> 00:45:32.340
And so I just did some sample costs. I just Googled

00:45:32.340 --> 00:45:36.409
on. Walmart and Amazon, like if you wanted to

00:45:36.409 --> 00:45:39.690
order, another little, here's another little

00:45:39.690 --> 00:45:41.550
aside before I give you these prices. It was

00:45:41.550 --> 00:45:44.949
really interesting too, when I did this, a lot

00:45:44.949 --> 00:45:48.909
of products that are available put several of

00:45:48.909 --> 00:45:51.690
these in the same capsule. So then you're like,

00:45:51.809 --> 00:45:54.789
oh my goodness, which one works? You know, when

00:45:54.789 --> 00:45:57.130
you do that and there aren't a lot of data to

00:45:57.130 --> 00:45:59.070
support it, you don't know, is it all together?

00:45:59.389 --> 00:46:02.409
Is it nothing working? Is it all working? Don't

00:46:02.409 --> 00:46:05.150
really know. But so when I broke them down for

00:46:05.150 --> 00:46:08.090
the individual, I looked primarily at ashwagandha.

00:46:08.250 --> 00:46:13.250
And I looked at one ounce tincture bottle was

00:46:13.250 --> 00:46:17.389
$18. And I think you use a drop a day. And I

00:46:17.389 --> 00:46:19.769
forgot to do the math as far as how long that

00:46:19.769 --> 00:46:22.070
would last. It might last for two months, you

00:46:22.070 --> 00:46:24.090
know, one to two months. So it wasn't going to

00:46:24.090 --> 00:46:31.250
break the bank. But, or then rhodiola for 60

00:46:31.250 --> 00:46:34.530
capsules, it was $18 and 50 cents. That's 60

00:46:34.530 --> 00:46:36.309
capsules. And you just take one a day. So that

00:46:36.309 --> 00:46:38.789
could last for two months. So not bad, you know?

00:46:38.849 --> 00:46:40.349
Yeah. And just, and just to give an idea of like

00:46:40.349 --> 00:46:42.610
what some of these are, especially like ashwagandha

00:46:42.610 --> 00:46:45.110
and rhodiola, these are root, I don't know if

00:46:45.110 --> 00:46:46.550
you call them root vegetables, but they're definitely

00:46:46.550 --> 00:46:49.190
roots. Root plants. Root plants. I remember my

00:46:49.190 --> 00:46:51.889
brother was in the Peace Corps in this island

00:46:51.889 --> 00:46:53.989
called Vanuatu and they had a root there called

00:46:53.989 --> 00:46:56.170
the taro root. They also had something called

00:46:56.170 --> 00:46:59.860
kava and essentially, What they would do during

00:46:59.860 --> 00:47:02.340
the times where they would have these just kind

00:47:02.340 --> 00:47:04.619
of communal celebrations, they would take these

00:47:04.619 --> 00:47:07.760
roots and they'd essentially grind them into

00:47:07.760 --> 00:47:10.699
tiny little pieces. And then they would then

00:47:10.699 --> 00:47:13.260
put them in a solution. Usually it was water.

00:47:13.920 --> 00:47:18.199
And then that was essentially consumed. So that

00:47:18.199 --> 00:47:20.780
was the idea of like, this is how you take the

00:47:20.780 --> 00:47:22.599
root and consume it, which is I imagine how they

00:47:22.599 --> 00:47:25.059
get these tinctures as well. But you, I mean,

00:47:25.059 --> 00:47:28.269
a big root can go a long way. So, and it's relatively

00:47:28.269 --> 00:47:30.710
inexpensive to harvest these things and to grind

00:47:30.710 --> 00:47:33.110
them. So I imagine the profit, it would be interesting

00:47:33.110 --> 00:47:35.349
to look at the profit margin of some of these

00:47:35.349 --> 00:47:39.050
substances. Right. But also like mom said is

00:47:39.050 --> 00:47:42.070
like, these are not regulated. So when you buy

00:47:42.070 --> 00:47:46.099
these tinctures, you're not really sure. How

00:47:46.099 --> 00:47:48.300
much of it is ashwagandha? How much ashwagandha

00:47:48.300 --> 00:47:50.800
is in there, yeah. It could be a dilute. It could

00:47:50.800 --> 00:47:54.000
be nothing. Water or alcohol or whatever. So

00:47:54.000 --> 00:47:55.920
if you are going to buy supplements, there are

00:47:55.920 --> 00:47:59.340
labs out there that actually do verify the substances

00:47:59.340 --> 00:48:01.519
that they sell if they are supplement companies.

00:48:01.679 --> 00:48:05.519
I think Thorne, T -H -O -R -N -E, is a great

00:48:05.519 --> 00:48:08.320
company that actually verifies the substances

00:48:08.320 --> 00:48:10.719
and the quality of ingredients they put in their...

00:48:13.829 --> 00:48:17.230
My generous call on the medicines. Supplements.

00:48:17.389 --> 00:48:21.130
If you are going to buy supplements, make sure

00:48:21.130 --> 00:48:22.869
you're buying from a company that at least has

00:48:22.869 --> 00:48:26.030
been vetted and verified to produce things. And

00:48:26.030 --> 00:48:27.010
it's going to be a little bit more expensive

00:48:27.010 --> 00:48:30.840
because it does take effort to actually. validate

00:48:30.840 --> 00:48:33.059
what you're what you're making yeah for example

00:48:33.059 --> 00:48:35.599
there there was an ashwagandha with 60 capsules

00:48:35.599 --> 00:48:39.099
for 24 and some of the combination products could

00:48:39.099 --> 00:48:42.519
cost up to 50 a bottle and stuff for 60 capsules

00:48:42.519 --> 00:48:44.719
and stuff so yeah the price was all over the

00:48:44.719 --> 00:48:47.079
board but yet it wasn't like you know you think

00:48:47.079 --> 00:48:49.019
of some of the prescription drugs that are really

00:48:49.019 --> 00:48:53.000
expensive but but again usually those it's a

00:48:53.000 --> 00:48:56.170
it's for a targeted patient population and it's

00:48:56.170 --> 00:48:58.130
going to be something that is you know covered

00:48:58.130 --> 00:49:00.610
by insurance yeah this is even true of generics

00:49:00.610 --> 00:49:02.670
too like not all generics are created equally

00:49:02.670 --> 00:49:06.289
like some people some generics skate by on quality

00:49:06.289 --> 00:49:09.309
like they're not all created equally so i'm not

00:49:09.309 --> 00:49:11.690
sure i agree with that but no it's true i mean

00:49:11.690 --> 00:49:14.250
i mean just think about think about what it means

00:49:14.250 --> 00:49:18.570
to be a generic drug and like they're still regulated

00:49:18.570 --> 00:49:20.619
though The companies are still regulated. But

00:49:20.619 --> 00:49:24.519
they do have, even with a brand name product,

00:49:24.679 --> 00:49:29.320
you have a 10 % margin either overage or underage

00:49:29.320 --> 00:49:32.739
in each capsule or tablet and stuff. And so that's

00:49:32.739 --> 00:49:37.460
considered still bioavailable. I know this is

00:49:37.460 --> 00:49:41.380
going to be a future episode for us. of talking

00:49:41.380 --> 00:49:43.800
about how drugs are made, especially on the pharmaceutical

00:49:43.800 --> 00:49:46.380
side. And I think it's going to be an interesting

00:49:46.380 --> 00:49:48.940
episode to discover about that. Oh, boy. It's

00:49:48.940 --> 00:49:50.699
going to break the purity bubble, probably with

00:49:50.699 --> 00:49:54.739
both of us. But anyways, let's keep moving on.

00:49:54.739 --> 00:49:57.960
Anyway, we'll keep going with adaptogens. So

00:49:57.960 --> 00:50:01.599
we always like to try to find, are there myths?

00:50:04.210 --> 00:50:06.690
or misunderstandings about the particular agent

00:50:06.690 --> 00:50:09.309
that we're talking about. And so I only really

00:50:09.309 --> 00:50:13.449
found two that I could see targeted for adaptogens.

00:50:13.510 --> 00:50:15.050
And the first is something that we've definitely

00:50:15.050 --> 00:50:18.309
kind of driven home and that people feel like

00:50:18.309 --> 00:50:20.349
there's been scientific evidence that supports

00:50:20.349 --> 00:50:23.530
adaptogen use. And there may be a little, some,

00:50:23.750 --> 00:50:26.889
but a lot of the results are ambivalent. And

00:50:26.889 --> 00:50:30.889
so I think that some of the deals are that the...

00:50:31.440 --> 00:50:34.820
Sample sizes are usually small. The trial could

00:50:34.820 --> 00:50:38.199
have been supported or paid for by a manufacturer

00:50:38.199 --> 00:50:40.559
of a product. And whenever you have a manufacturer

00:50:40.559 --> 00:50:45.000
paying for the study and analyzing the trial

00:50:45.000 --> 00:50:47.119
data, you're always concerned with some bias

00:50:47.119 --> 00:50:49.440
there. So you want to be careful about that.

00:50:50.360 --> 00:50:55.340
And like I also mentioned too, a lot of the trials

00:50:55.340 --> 00:50:58.690
are older. So, and then this is the last thing,

00:50:58.730 --> 00:51:01.630
the second thing as far as scientific evidence.

00:51:01.949 --> 00:51:06.429
A lot of, there is some concern or some thought

00:51:06.429 --> 00:51:10.090
that using adaptogens may actually be a placebo

00:51:10.090 --> 00:51:13.750
effect. And a placebo effect is basically you

00:51:13.750 --> 00:51:16.889
take something and you think it's going to have

00:51:16.889 --> 00:51:20.710
this effect and it does. But it's not really.

00:51:21.440 --> 00:51:24.340
Again, without a randomized controlled trial

00:51:24.340 --> 00:51:28.420
to measure that, you don't know whether or not

00:51:28.420 --> 00:51:30.860
you're really having an actual effect from that

00:51:30.860 --> 00:51:33.800
particular supplement or not. I was sharing with

00:51:33.800 --> 00:51:40.159
Josh earlier years ago when we taught a biostatistics

00:51:40.159 --> 00:51:43.039
class in our pharmacy school, and there was this

00:51:43.039 --> 00:51:49.320
old study where back in maybe the 1930s, 1940s,

00:51:49.320 --> 00:51:53.030
the treatment for angina pectoris, which is a,

00:51:53.150 --> 00:51:57.440
it's, it's, oxygen deficiency to your heart.

00:51:57.480 --> 00:52:00.320
So you'll get chest pain and stuff. The treatment

00:52:00.320 --> 00:52:03.500
for angina or angina, if people say it that way,

00:52:03.559 --> 00:52:06.539
was that you would do this surgery and they would

00:52:06.539 --> 00:52:12.699
go inside the person's body and clip and tie

00:52:12.699 --> 00:52:15.659
off what they called an internal mammary artery.

00:52:16.340 --> 00:52:19.039
So some sort of a vessel that was going to the

00:52:19.039 --> 00:52:22.820
mammary gland in the body and stuff. And that

00:52:22.820 --> 00:52:25.010
was what they thought caused it. and so they

00:52:25.010 --> 00:52:28.630
clipped it off and stuff. Well, several years

00:52:28.630 --> 00:52:30.849
later, they actually did a randomized control

00:52:30.849 --> 00:52:35.130
trial where half the people got this, this, this.

00:52:36.289 --> 00:52:39.530
and then the other half got a sham surgery. There

00:52:39.530 --> 00:52:43.010
was an incision made, but no mammary artery cut,

00:52:43.130 --> 00:52:45.590
and they found no difference between those two

00:52:45.590 --> 00:52:48.869
patient populations. So again, there's that placebo

00:52:48.869 --> 00:52:52.929
effect. So we'd have to have more clinical trials

00:52:52.929 --> 00:52:55.170
to determine whether or not these adaptogens

00:52:55.170 --> 00:52:58.929
have more than just a placebo effect. So it's

00:52:58.929 --> 00:53:01.909
just a thought to put out there. Yeah, I wonder

00:53:01.909 --> 00:53:04.090
if that's a hangover from our bloodletting days,

00:53:04.250 --> 00:53:06.789
you know, because we forget that medicine, especially

00:53:06.789 --> 00:53:09.469
evidence -based medicine, is relatively young

00:53:09.469 --> 00:53:13.230
to the world. And even like little techniques

00:53:13.230 --> 00:53:16.570
from the 1930s might have had a hangover, you

00:53:16.570 --> 00:53:18.570
know, from the earlier days of like, well, this

00:53:18.570 --> 00:53:21.050
is just what we've done. And it seems to have

00:53:21.050 --> 00:53:23.050
worked, but you really only count the people

00:53:23.050 --> 00:53:28.050
who have lived. And that's why you need to study

00:53:28.050 --> 00:53:31.670
things to really confirm. whether something is

00:53:31.670 --> 00:53:33.750
actually working or not. Like you can't just,

00:53:33.849 --> 00:53:36.250
it's like when you ever go to like a court trial

00:53:36.250 --> 00:53:38.269
and you look at somebody, that guy looks guilty.

00:53:38.449 --> 00:53:40.690
It's like, well, looking guilty is very different

00:53:40.690 --> 00:53:42.929
than being guilty. And I wouldn't want somebody

00:53:42.929 --> 00:53:45.590
to look at me and just based on how I look to

00:53:45.590 --> 00:53:47.210
determine if I'm guilty, I would like for them

00:53:47.210 --> 00:53:50.010
to have some evidence. So we want to apply that

00:53:50.010 --> 00:53:52.929
same rigor to what we put in our bodies. Yeah,

00:53:52.949 --> 00:53:57.329
I agree. So the second misunderstanding is that

00:53:57.329 --> 00:54:02.289
adaptogens are safe to use. And, you know, again...

00:54:04.219 --> 00:54:08.099
I didn't see a lot of really serious adverse

00:54:08.099 --> 00:54:10.219
effects associated with them, but they have some,

00:54:10.340 --> 00:54:12.480
and especially that concern about liver injury

00:54:12.480 --> 00:54:16.159
with ashwagandha. So you want to not put something

00:54:16.159 --> 00:54:20.159
into your body without realizing that it could

00:54:20.159 --> 00:54:21.980
have some sort of an effect. And we also mentioned,

00:54:22.019 --> 00:54:23.599
too, that potentially it could have a drug interaction

00:54:23.599 --> 00:54:27.300
as well, too. And again, with the lack of FDA

00:54:27.300 --> 00:54:30.800
regulation, what you are taking is not going

00:54:30.800 --> 00:54:34.420
to be the same in each. bottle that you get and

00:54:34.420 --> 00:54:36.400
stuff so that's there's just something it's just

00:54:36.400 --> 00:54:40.300
some food for thought so to wrap this up um i

00:54:40.300 --> 00:54:43.280
you know a couple of the the concluding comments

00:54:43.280 --> 00:54:45.380
that i have about adaptions and says is that

00:54:45.380 --> 00:54:47.179
they have been utilized to help the body adapt

00:54:47.179 --> 00:54:49.679
to stress and promote it for other health benefits

00:54:49.679 --> 00:54:53.800
um the research is lacking but they're but they're

00:54:54.440 --> 00:54:57.099
But there is some evidence for use for ashwagandha

00:54:57.099 --> 00:55:01.579
for short -term use. And then a lot of the other

00:55:01.579 --> 00:55:03.880
health claims for adaptogens, there just isn't

00:55:03.880 --> 00:55:06.760
a lot of validation for, you know, why you should

00:55:06.760 --> 00:55:08.659
be using that to begin with and stuff. So, but

00:55:08.659 --> 00:55:12.920
again, you know, again. And you've got to balance

00:55:12.920 --> 00:55:15.239
that in with the placebo effect and all that

00:55:15.239 --> 00:55:18.480
good stuff. So they're not regulated by the FDA,

00:55:18.599 --> 00:55:21.460
so they can vary in quality and purity. Adverse

00:55:21.460 --> 00:55:23.519
events and drug interactions are possible. And

00:55:23.519 --> 00:55:25.880
I think it's really important. This is the last

00:55:25.880 --> 00:55:27.300
point that I'll leave you with, and then I'm

00:55:27.300 --> 00:55:29.780
sure Josh has a couple of things to say. You

00:55:29.780 --> 00:55:32.119
really do want to consult your health care provider

00:55:32.119 --> 00:55:37.239
before you start one of these because... Herbs

00:55:37.239 --> 00:55:39.679
and supplements should not replace standard of

00:55:39.679 --> 00:55:43.719
care therapies or sustainable lifestyle changes.

00:55:44.300 --> 00:55:47.539
They're not a substitute. I mean, maybe you can

00:55:47.539 --> 00:55:50.320
add something on and it's okay with your physician

00:55:50.320 --> 00:55:54.179
or your nurse practitioner to do this, but keep

00:55:54.179 --> 00:55:57.820
them in the loop when you're doing this. I think

00:55:57.820 --> 00:56:00.360
that's so well said. We've actually, the NIH

00:56:00.360 --> 00:56:02.639
recently changed their definition of alternative

00:56:02.639 --> 00:56:05.289
medicine to complementary medicine. Because,

00:56:05.289 --> 00:56:08.650
yeah, this shouldn't be a substitute for, let's

00:56:08.650 --> 00:56:10.610
say you're a diabetic and you need to take insulin

00:56:10.610 --> 00:56:12.469
in order to cope with that. And you find this

00:56:12.469 --> 00:56:14.409
new route that's going to do the quote unquote

00:56:14.409 --> 00:56:16.550
same thing. And also it's going to cure your

00:56:16.550 --> 00:56:21.690
stress and, you know, make you taller. You want

00:56:21.690 --> 00:56:26.409
to take this stuff because it will complement

00:56:26.409 --> 00:56:28.809
the lifestyle that you already have, which you

00:56:28.809 --> 00:56:30.409
should probably be using evidence -based care.

00:56:30.570 --> 00:56:34.360
I tend, I'm... We've covered a couple of these

00:56:34.360 --> 00:56:37.159
topics so far with supplements, and it seems

00:56:37.159 --> 00:56:40.420
that this space is growing. And I think this

00:56:40.420 --> 00:56:45.159
space is growing because I think there's this

00:56:45.159 --> 00:56:48.980
kind of yearning for wholeness in people. I think

00:56:48.980 --> 00:56:51.000
people are feeling stressed, and I think they're

00:56:51.000 --> 00:56:53.800
feeling overwhelmed or whatever. And I think

00:56:53.800 --> 00:56:55.980
a lot of times when that happens, people will

00:56:55.980 --> 00:56:58.159
just grab onto something that kind of gives you

00:56:58.159 --> 00:57:01.820
this kind of panacea effect. I think that can

00:57:01.820 --> 00:57:03.900
be a really comforting thing. I think taking

00:57:03.900 --> 00:57:08.000
a ritual, whether it be a cup of coffee or prayer

00:57:08.000 --> 00:57:12.900
or going for a run, I think some of these things

00:57:12.900 --> 00:57:14.920
can have benefit, but I really think it's your

00:57:14.920 --> 00:57:18.199
relation to these things that can have the benefit.

00:57:18.280 --> 00:57:20.679
I think belief and having a story that you tell

00:57:20.679 --> 00:57:23.820
yourself can really help you feel like a healthier

00:57:23.820 --> 00:57:28.719
person. But I think the unfortunate— Thing in

00:57:28.719 --> 00:57:30.760
this space is that we've kind of pitted these

00:57:30.760 --> 00:57:32.639
two things against one another. There's evidence

00:57:32.639 --> 00:57:35.300
-based medicine versus complimentary medicine

00:57:35.300 --> 00:57:37.559
and like their enemies, which I really think

00:57:37.559 --> 00:57:40.380
they can, they just need to recognize their own

00:57:40.380 --> 00:57:44.239
role. Um, and I think one is more of this spiritual

00:57:44.239 --> 00:57:47.460
or holistic side where you're kind of just actively

00:57:47.460 --> 00:57:50.559
engaging in the world. And then this other side

00:57:50.559 --> 00:57:54.420
is like, Hey, these things have. actual specific

00:57:54.420 --> 00:57:57.000
uses and i still think that i can be grateful

00:57:57.000 --> 00:57:59.260
for my tylenol the same way i'm grateful for

00:57:59.260 --> 00:58:02.219
my ashwagandha because it's still amazing that

00:58:02.219 --> 00:58:04.059
i'm putting these things in my body it has an

00:58:04.059 --> 00:58:08.320
effect i'm i'm i'm caring about my health i think

00:58:08.320 --> 00:58:11.559
sometimes the people who criticize evidence -based

00:58:11.559 --> 00:58:13.619
medicine think oh these are people who just pop

00:58:13.619 --> 00:58:16.800
pills and just don't care about themselves they

00:58:16.800 --> 00:58:19.119
just are just using a pill to try to get better

00:58:19.119 --> 00:58:22.159
and i think they discount the fact that people

00:58:22.159 --> 00:58:25.739
like you and I, mom, we still want to have an

00:58:25.739 --> 00:58:27.460
active relationship with the world. And we take

00:58:27.460 --> 00:58:29.420
drugs because we think that they work because

00:58:29.420 --> 00:58:31.559
they have evidence behind them. And we still

00:58:31.559 --> 00:58:33.519
want to be healthy people. And I think if we

00:58:33.519 --> 00:58:36.440
both recognize that both camps want to be healthy,

00:58:36.599 --> 00:58:39.079
I think that's the benefit. And I think what

00:58:39.079 --> 00:58:42.380
I would encourage from the people on the adaptogen

00:58:42.380 --> 00:58:44.900
side is like, just show us that you have evidence

00:58:44.900 --> 00:58:47.809
that it works. And we'll believe you. But even

00:58:47.809 --> 00:58:49.190
if you don't want to show that you have evidence,

00:58:49.389 --> 00:58:52.030
that's fine. Just don't make claims that it works.

00:58:52.110 --> 00:58:54.130
Just make claims that you're doing this because

00:58:54.130 --> 00:58:57.929
it just makes you feel better. Just internally,

00:58:58.050 --> 00:58:59.750
psychologically. And I still think that has a

00:58:59.750 --> 00:59:01.929
benefit as well. So that's the last thing I'll

00:59:01.929 --> 00:59:05.670
say. All righty. That's all I have. Well, wonderful.

00:59:05.869 --> 00:59:08.210
Well, y 'all, thank you so much for kind of joining

00:59:08.210 --> 00:59:10.849
us on this space. If you like what we do, please

00:59:10.849 --> 00:59:14.289
subscribe to us on any podcast service that you

00:59:14.289 --> 00:59:15.929
have, whether it be Apple Podcasts or Spotify

00:59:15.929 --> 00:59:18.690
or whatever. If you ever have a question, feel

00:59:18.690 --> 00:59:20.570
free to reach out to us. We'd love to chat with

00:59:20.570 --> 00:59:24.170
you. But until next time, I'm Josh Klaus. And

00:59:24.170 --> 00:59:26.030
I'm Jenny Seltzer. And this has been another

00:59:26.030 --> 00:59:28.409
episode of Your Mom on Drugs. Talk to you soon.

00:59:29.670 --> 00:59:30.050
Bye.