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Tales from the Trenches, stories forged in the fires of experience.

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This episode brought to you by Chemours.

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Together we can create a better world through the power of our chemistry.

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Visit Chemours.com.

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Alright, hello everyone.

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Thank you for joining us on Tales from the Trenches.

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We're hanging out with Don Gillis.

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Hello Don.

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Hi Clef, how are you today?

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I'm doing good.

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Let's spend a little bit of time talking about brazing and ways to protect things around

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us and some of the experiences that we've had out in the field.

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There are a lot of things that we can teach on brazing and burning in particular.

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And like I always mention, I probably should have named this show Do As I Say, Not As I

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Did.

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Amen.

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So let's share some stories from the world of Don Gillis out in the field.

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Yeah, here we go.

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I'm going to tell you all the little dirty secrets now, the skeletons.

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So talking about brazing, I have a great story for you.

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So we all make mistakes and sometimes those mistakes we make or sometimes the things that

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we learn are mistakes we made in the field.

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Those are probably the most things that stick with us the longest.

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So let me tell you about what I learned when compressors, the Rolls in particular, started

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coming out with copper clad steel material on the compressors.

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When you were placing compressors, and you probably know where I'm headed with this.

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So the reason they did that is to make it more rigid, if you will.

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And if it tipped over your truck or got hit, when they were pure copper, they were easier

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to bend that copper and get egg shaped and what have you.

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So they brought the copper clad steel in.

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So when I learned how to braze, it was always, and maybe I was wrong, taught wrong is to

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heat that up on the female side and draw that braze in, you know, around and warm it up

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first.

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Well, when I started seeing this copper cut steel, first of all, I didn't know what they

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were because it didn't really jump out at me.

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It wasn't that big of a difference in color.

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So I'm brazing these compressor in one day.

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By the way, this happened to me twice.

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I fell victim to it twice.

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I'm brazing on the female side of the, and I got my rag there protecting up against the

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compressor and I'm brazing on the female side and I'm brazing, brazing my brazing rod isn't

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taking.

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And next thing I know, the film on the female fitting started to kind of bubble up.

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It ate it away.

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Right.

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Okay.

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So you know where I'm headed with this.

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So it's kind of like water in the pipes when you're plumbing, if you've ever done plumbing

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before, it's not a good day.

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So it got it burnt just enough that coating off.

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And once you get down to that actual steel like that, it's then a real, real bear to

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try to braze.

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It took me a long time to get the flux rod out.

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Probably exactly.

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Exactly.

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Get the flux rod out and get it.

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So, and then it started to happen to me on a second time.

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So here's what I learned along the way.

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You know, fast forward is in actuality, there's actually an AE Bulletin with Copeland that

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states this and I don't know it off the top of my head, but you can, if you just put the

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search words in right, you'll find it, it'll pop right up.

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But you actually, we have three different types of heat.

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We have convection, we have radiant and we have conductive.

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Right.

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So they want you to use a one, two, three method.

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And the method is this, you're at the female side of the compressor, that female fitting,

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you know, on the compressor.

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Yeah.

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That's number three.

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Number two is just entering that female fitting, the pipe itself.

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And one's the back a little further.

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So you start eating the pipe up with one about two inches out.

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That pipe is then conducted, right?

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Starts to heat up in the female fitting.

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You step one step closer.

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Steps two, you're still not on that compressor fitting to get a little bit warmer.

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And the idea of it is when you get on top of that, the actual stub on the compressor,

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that'll suck in real well.

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And I have found that to be a blessing.

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So if you're ever in that situation, but I want to share that with them because I've

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told people that story before and it's, you know, going back to it's funny how we're all

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human and we all make the same mistakes, you know?

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And before smartphones, we made a lot more mistakes.

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And you know, but you get those smiles in the classroom, like, you know, anybody felt

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victim to that?

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And the honest ones will raise their hand and go start smiling, nodding their head because

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they have, you know, there's no instructional thing on that or there never was when it first

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came out or whatever.

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So that's one thing I wanted to share of disasters in my career that I have found along the way,

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a learning experience.

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It's a learning curve.

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The other thing is, is protecting TXVs.

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You know, there are so many TXVs were damaged early in my career, not just by me or not

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by me, but as a service manager, I saw a lot of TXVs coming back for a lot of reasons,

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you know, not using nitrogen, you know, when you're brazing, that's a big one.

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I know we hear that all the time, but it's huge, huge, huge.

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And with POE oil, it became even more impactful.

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But protecting those TXVs and, you know, even, even, even liquid line filter dryers and those

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kinds of things, wrapping that stuff, cooling it.

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They've got a lot of good products out there, gel and what have you back in the olden days,

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because now that's where I'm at in life.

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It was very common.

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We opened up the back of the door of a van.

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You may or may not remember this, Cliff, you probably do, but everyone, everyone I knew

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anyways had a little steel back when they made steel cans, like a Folger can, a Folger's

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coffee can with a red rag in it.

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Little red rag bucket.

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You put your little water in there and you took that rag and that was your protection.

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That's what you did.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So, so, but protecting everything like that is, and especially if you use, I know Turbo

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Torches is a name brand, but the acetylene torches by themselves, they're great to carry

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up 40 foot ladders.

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I love mine.

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I always did.

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But I tell you, when you use settling oxygen, it is so much better in my opinion.

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When settling came out, no, no knock on it for those of the user, use just settling,

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please no hate mail.

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But what I noticed when we went into the era of just the settling and those became more

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popular is you saw a lot more damaged TXVs.

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You saw service ports.

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The nuts were actually swelling inside there.

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And the next thing out of someone's mouth is all their junk, their junk, their junk.

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But they didn't realize the longer they were staying on that, they were damaging things.

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You know what I mean?

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Absolutely.

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I could always tell in the grocery market installations who was using straight acetylene

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and who was using oxygen acetylene.

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So all you'd have to do is open up the pans for the evaporators and wherever the TXV was,

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if everything around it was scorched, you knew what they were using.

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So the amount of heat that is radiated off from is pretty intense.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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And I have both and I've used both, but I really like myself.

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I was a, I don't know if I've even ever shared this with you, but I reinvented myself at

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almost age 30.

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I've been doing this just at 31 years now, but I was a laid off union welder.

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And I worked in a factory and making farm equipment and we laid some pretty good sized

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beads down.

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So I already had a good grasp of how to braze and how to weld and those kinds of things

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when I got into the field.

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In fact, that was one of the things that the owners took notice to me right away that I

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could braze pretty well, you know, but you know, so anyways, but yeah, that's a big one

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there.

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The compressor is a big one there on the heat also.

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And then just, you know, just getting that pipe warm enough to put that braze down and

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just anything like that.

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Please remember to, you know, one of the things I like to share in the classroom is this is,

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you know, we've all done it.

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We've all been bent over a, you know, condenser of some sort hanging on and trying to braze

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in a compressor.

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Don't braze, don't un-braze them out of the condenser though.

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Please please please cut them out.

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Don't braze them out.

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You need to have a little stub on there anyways if you're going to send it back to crimp.

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So don't do that.

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It's not worth it.

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I've not been around anyone that's got seriously injured, but I've seen and heard a lot of

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horror stories.

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It's a, in fact, it became so common on one compressor that I know of that different manufacturers

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actually moved where their suction line was on the compressor simply for that reason,

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because the thought was if they lowered that suction coming in, that it would, it would

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be lower and cool the motor down better the lower it was.

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It would get, but actually it was, it did not change anything and people were getting

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hurt because they were closer to that oil on the bottom of the compressor trying to

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un-braze it out.

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So be very, very careful with that.

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I remember early on in my career, I was a very young guy in the field and we were, we

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were changing a compressor on a residential AC and you know, it used to be a common practice

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to braze out the compressor that, you know, that has since changed because we have changed

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the way that we design the fittings and we do a lot more copper clad fittings now versus

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solid copper that are attached to the compressor.

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And I remember it was a scroll compressor.

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This was early on, this was early 2000s and I was watching my mentor braze out this compressor

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and there was obviously still some refrigerant in the oil and he had to get it so hot and

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I imagine it was because of a copper clad fitting, he had to get it so hot that by time

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it actually came off, there was phaging gas in the compressor.

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And when it came out of the compressor, you know, it was just enough vapor form.

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He was already bent over.

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So he was already leaning down.

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So his lungs were already compressed.

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And when that phaging gas hit and he tried to back away from the compressor, when he

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inhaled, of course with your lungs compressed, you stand up, your lungs are going to feel

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and all he was feeling was phaging gas and went straight up and went straight back and

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flat on his back on the ground and was passed out for about three minutes.

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It's so funny you brought that up.

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I occasionally when I can remember to, you know, if we get on that topic in the classroom,

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I often ask if anybody, you know, has ever smelled that and you get people chuckling

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and laughing and cause we've all done it before.

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And I jokingly would say, and I really mean this though, when I would smell that sometimes

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in my younger years and it hit me, it was so bad that I knew I probably just took some

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amount of my life off years off my life, but I wasn't sure how much, you know what I mean?

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That's how nasty it was.

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You knew that can't be good.

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That can't be good for you.

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So yeah.

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The other thing I wanted to talk about, you struck up about, you know, the brazing thing

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too.

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We talked a little bit about the, you know, the compressors, cutting them out, brazing

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them out.

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Another fun fact, if you will, is the liquid line filter dryers.

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I think most people know that, but the objective of that, you know, the primary reason is to

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remove moisture, right?

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So don't embrace those, cut them out.

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When you un-braze them, you're chasing that moisture back into the system only to be caught

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again by the new liquid line filter dryer.

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And you know, as common as you and I know that to be, you'd be surprised how many people

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do not know that, you know what I mean?

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Because it's easier to sweat them out and that's the way we were kind of taught, you

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know what I mean?

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I mean, that's the way it is.

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So yeah, all good stuff.

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So a lot of good lessons to learn about brazing and understanding the metals that you are

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working with.

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You know, another one, especially in the commercial refrigeration is when we start talking about

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dissimilar metals and knowing how much heat to use.

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And we're bringing a copper line onto a steel fitting and you know, it can be done, but

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it very much is a matter of controlling the heat and using the proper brazing rods.

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So whole nother conversation about brazing with dissimilar metals, but being aware of

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our scenarios, making sure that if we're working with products that have any potential of having

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refrigerant or moisture in them, like a compressor or a filter dryer, cut them out.

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Do not try to un-braze those things or just asking for trouble or asking for issues.

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All good stuff, Don.

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Anything else you want to talk while we're here today?

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Oh, another short topic to discuss when we're on the brazing issue.

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It amazes me how many times out in the field I have found Schrader cores leaking because

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they weren't removed during installation and brazing.

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I love the way your mind's thinking right now.

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How did we miss that one?

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How did we miss that one?

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I used to work with a guy.

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I couldn't get it past him.

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In his brain, as long as he wrapped the wet rag around his service valves, the Schrader's

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should be fine.

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And I couldn't tell you how many jobs I had to go back on his installations and just replace

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Schrader cores that were leaking.

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So we need to pay attention to our installations.

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Be careful with our heat.

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Remove Schrader cores anytime possible.

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And if we're working on an expansion valve and it has a mechanical fitting, if it's a

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flare or compression style fitting, remove it while we're doing our brazing and try to

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keep the heat away from those viable moving mechanical components.

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Yeah.

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One last thing I wanted to share too is you kind of generated a thought in my head when

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we talk about, you see a lot of these TXVs or EEVs that are going all stainless steel

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in the refrigeration side of things.

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You're more than likely, you may have to use some flux, actual flux, not just in the rods.

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And you have to be very careful with that.

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Not really so much with brazing, but the using of flux.

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Use it sparingly on the male fitting.

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Don't glob it up in the female fitting.

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Because like moisture, flux is acidic.

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And a lot of these things we do on the initial startup, you know this, and I know this, and

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most people know this, but the longevity of that system actually really depends on how

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it was installed.

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Compressors don't fail a day or two or a year later because I didn't install it right.

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They're five years down the road and then the homeowner just says, oh, they don't make

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them like they used to.

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When in fact, because of my not pulling down the 500 microns, not brazing properly, you

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know what I mean?

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Those kinds of things.

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Absolutely.

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You get it.

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And most people, most instructors obviously know this, but you need to share those stories

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with the class and different listeners and stuff like that.

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Because they don't, you assume everyone knows, but they don't.

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And I'm always learning every day like you.

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So anyways, just food for thought.

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No, all good practices.

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You know, Jason Objute has this saying all the time.

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All condenses are made equally and then they're installed.

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That's a good one.

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Because so much of our equipment is manufactured to very high specifications, very exact tolerances.

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So why does one particular brand get a bad rep over another one?

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Typically it's in the quality of installations.

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You are so, so right.

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And it's amazing when you first start out, you don't realize it because when you're an

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installer, I mean, just a little off topic here, but you're always dreaming about the

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service guy being the service guy.

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I mean, you're tickled to death when you get up to move to prevent a maintenance, you know,

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like, wow, I'm getting close to service and now I'm going to be on call and boy, I like

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those guys.

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They, they, they don't have to, you know, beat the beat 10 knockers anymore and all

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this other stuff.

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But actuality, I always tell installers take pride in what you do because it's, it, everything

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you do is going to determine exactly.

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And how many times have something failed in your career?

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I know mine, it's been a lot.

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It all falls back on poor airflow.

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I mean, a lot of things that we get calls on, you may have corrected something else,

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a thermistor, you know, out of caliper or something like that.

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But if you, you, you fix that, the problem re resurfaces a lot of time, it's airflow.

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It's things like airflow, airflow, airflow.

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It's just, it amazes me how important that is and how many people get that wrong when

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they first install something, you know?

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Oh yeah, so true.

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All right.

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Well, Don Gillis, thank you once again for hanging out with us and we appreciate your

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time today.

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Hey, thanks for having me.

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I appreciate it, Cliff.

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It's been a pleasure.