Welcome back to Teaching the Unteachables, where we dive into methods for teaching and learning for professionals like you.
This episode brought to you by the National Oil Heat Research Alliance. Learn more at norahweb.org.
One of the misconceptions that we hear a lot in the industry is decarbonization and electrification being held into the same teeter like they're the exact same component.
And that's really not the scenario. So today we're going to spend some time with Bob O'Brien. Bob, how are you today?
Hey Clifton, how are you?
Fantastic, from NORA. And we want to spend a little bit of time helping clarify and understand what the decarbonization actually is and understand that not all fuels are going away.
We're not going completely electric. There are many ways to be able to complete this decarbonization movement.
So if we spend a little bit of time talking about what decarbonization is, it is a global effort to reduce our carbon footprint.
To be able to sustain the life that we know on this planet, we have to reduce our carbon emissions.
Now we have the ability to do that in many ways, things like recycling and controlling waste and fuels and gases.
But we also have the electrification. And now we have that component that is feared the most, especially by those living up in the Northeast, is what about fuel?
Because not all regions of the world are right for heat pumps.
Yes, we are building and we are sponsoring competitions for new technologies to be able to get higher capacity, lower ambient condition working heat pumps.
But it's not exactly the solution for everyone.
So Bob, let's spend a little bit of time talking about your side of this effort because there's a lot happening in your spectrum of the industry.
Sure. NORA is the National Oil Heat Research Alliance.
At this point, we're heavily focused on renewable liquid fuels, primarily biodiesel.
Renewable diesel to a somewhat lesser extent.
NORA is a congressionally authorized checkoff program, similar to most of the ones you're familiar with are probably agricultural, got milk, beef, it's once for dinner, pork, the other white meat.
NORA is the same exact thing. So it's industry requested, industry funded.
And there's three major areas of focus, technician education, consumer education, and research and development.
All three of those at the moment are heavily weighted towards transitioning to renewable liquid fuels.
Petroleum products have a finite lifespan ahead of them.
Yeah, absolutely. We have a limited amount of use.
People don't understand that we're starting to siphon off from that well that is not endless.
So we have to be able to move forward as a planet, as an entire civilization, and look for our other alternative fuel resources.
NORA is National Oil Heat Research Alliance. It's congressionally authorized, so unfortunately there's no name change possible.
We'd love to get away from oil heat to liquid fuels or renewable liquid fuels.
Not much of a future in the oil heating business at this point, or any fossil fuel for that matter.
But there's still a lot of fuel oil out there.
Five million homes and businesses, which is a lot of work from anybody's perspective.
As you know, it's a fraction of nationwide. It's about 6-7% of the nationwide.
They use it for both heating and domestic hot water. More heavily weighted into the Northeast, but it's scattered everywhere.
States can opt in to participate in NORA. 23 states do participate in NORA currently.
So it's not quite half, but pretty close. Mostly Northeast, mid-Atlantic, up through Maine.
But there's pretty strong concentrations scattered out in the Pacific Northwest. Alaska, obviously, quite strong.
Yeah, I'm sure.
Yeah, it's tough to run a pipeline up there.
Yeah, absolutely.
A natural gas one anyway. But we're rapidly transitioning to renewable fuels that moves away from heating oil.
There's state mandates in a lot of the Northeast states. New York, Connecticut, Rhode Island, Massachusetts.
And those are the heaviest users, the heaviest concentrations.
Primary sectors.
So biodiesel has been the main focus. It's a little more readily available.
Renewable diesel, which they call it HVO in Europe, has kind of not reached the market yet.
But it's hopefully going to be here pretty soon. So we're doing a lot of research.
Okay, so that's the Eurodiesel that I keep seeing.
Yes, you'll see it talked about particularly in the UK.
Sure.
Yeah, it's heavily used here in California for transportation use.
Oh, okay.
But it's starting to work its way into the East Coast and into the heating market. So we want to be ready for it when it arrives.
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, all these fuels aren't exactly the same as petroleum.
So that's really the education efforts are focused towards the technicians to get them used to.
It's not exactly the way it was. Pretty close, but not exact.
Yeah, here in the Midwest. So I'm in central Indiana. And fuel oil used to be utilized very heavily here, especially for farming purposes.
A lot of grain bins were dried with fuel oil tanks. And we still have some.
So when I first got into the industry, we had some particularly old farms that still used a lot of fuel oil.
So it is a industry that has changed, but is definitely still here. And so how do you supplement those fuels?
You know, we hear a lot about the diesel industry, you know, for transportation and locomotion.
But what about for heating in our residential and our commercial industrial applications?
So we still have that entire sector that we have to cater to in this decarbonization movement.
Actually, Indiana is a state that participates in NORA.
There are still quite a few oil heated businesses and homes in Indiana.
And the biofuels really make it a nice circular economy for Indiana where you do grow soybeans, not as many as Illinois or Iowa.
But there's quite a bit of soybeans in Indiana.
So they can actually be grown, processed and completely used entirely within the state.
So it's an American product. It's a Midwest product, mostly soy.
The canola are the feedstocks they use to produce it. So it's a completely circular economy in those states, in the Midwest states.
OK, now, so when we start talking about doing like retrofits, are we mainly talking about burner assemblies and orifices?
There's actually none. It's typically referred to by percentage.
So when people say B20, B50, B100, B means biodiesel.
And the number is the percentage of the of the fleet fuel that is biodiesel.
So B20 would be 20 percent biodiesel, 80 percent petroleum. B100 is 100 percent biodiesel.
At the B20 level, there's really no changes at all. It's a drop in.
It's listed under ASTM 396, the spec for heating oil.
Oh, wow. OK.
Up to B20. So there's really not much changes.
All the burners available new on the market are already B20 compatible.
Huh.
So there's probably four or five hundred thousand of those five million using B20 at the moment.
And the vast majority have had no changes whatsoever.
Yeah, that's the blend level increases is where the difference has become more pronounced.
But at that level, it's it's minuscule.
Is it a BTU factor or is it a velocity factor?
There were slightly less BTUs per gallon.
OK. A little less than 10 percent difference.
OK. Biodiesel versus conventional heating oil.
Makes sense. OK.
All right. So we're definitely seeing some transitions here in the Midwest.
Definitely see them on different areas.
Kind of talked about this a little bit. We know that it is a checkoff program.
So would you consider it a federal initiative for the oil sector?
The industry actually lobbied Congress to approve this.
These are self initiated. The chicken guys and the milk guys and the California cheese guys, they're in it too.
Lobby Congress to have these checkoff programs created to promote the industry, to fund the promotion of the industry internally.
OK. It's nice to see that is actually designed from the ground up as a evolution to an industry.
Yeah, it's not from Congress down. It's from the all these industries up there, primarily agricultural bio heat.
It's a trademark for blends. Yeah.
Below B100, obviously.
And it's about the benefits of approaching decarbonization by changing fuels rather than by going to a clean fuel rather than altering the whole system.
In the northeast is a lot of hydronic systems.
It's heavily weighted towards hydronic. A lot of window shakers still here.
A lot of old buildings, particularly in the cities, you know, Philadelphia, Boston, New York, that long stretch there.
These are tough buildings to decarbonize. They don't lend themselves to split heat pump systems very well.
In Europe, they've been doing a hybrid with air to water heat pumps in the hydronic systems.
They typically use lower water temperatures than we do here. Unfortunately, they have radiant panel rats.
Typically, we're in tube that needs higher water temperatures. That's really not an answer for us.
This makes it pretty easy for somebody to decarbonize. Sure.
At a minimal investment and very rapidly. So the consumer education is focused towards that.
So that's where this conversation kind of started, looking through different topics that we need to cover.
I seen an article from Nora about the biofuels and the decarbonization efforts of Nora.
And I went, wait a minute, decarbonization from a fuel oil perspective.
Now, I need to know more. And then because it really changes that philosophy of decarbonization.
You know, we think about decarbonization. We think we're just getting rid of everything that's carbon fuel based.
And we're going with whatever we can to supplement that. But it's not the scenario.
When we think about these boilers and these heating systems that were designed for, you know, specific temperature rises and volume of flow
that cannot be done with some of these air source systems, exactly like Bob was just saying.
And the cost of doing complete retrofits and redesigning these systems for higher BTU, higher capacity heating loads is not particularly feasible.
May not even have the space to do such thing.
So when we start talking about these alternative fuels, I had recognized biofuels in the agricultural because it's become very popular here in the Midwest for agricultural purposes.
But I hadn't looked at it from the heating perspective.
So it opened up my own perspective of what decarbonization is and the vast efforts that are happening right now from many different avenues.
So it was very enlightening for myself. That's why I wanted us to talk about this and share it a little bit, because I've even had some of our own educators ask, well, what do we do about fuel oil?
Am I supposed to really dump the entire fuel oil design system and go with a cold climate heat pump in the north?
And I went, wow, that's a that's a big investment and that's a lot of redesign.
So it opens up our thoughts a little bit to the options that we actually have, because as an industry, we all have to do that.
You know, we keep talking about how much we need to impact the HVAC refrigeration industry by using new technologies and new innovations.
And this is to show that it really is in every sector of our industry, even the oil guys.
If you don't want to end up like Kodak, you go right. You have to evolve.
They held on to that film for way too long.
Where do we learn? Where do we become more familiar with moving into these new types of fuels, Bob?
Sure. One third of three of the legs of Nora, one of them is technician education and probably the most important.
So there's a three tier certification system. So this is in place nationwide. Entry level would be the bronze.
It's a formal 80 hour class followed up by a test.
Technicians who have three years experience and 100 hours of seat training could be virtual or physical.
Doesn't doesn't matter. Are eligible to be silver certified and gold would be five years of silver and four separate gold classes.
Kind of like grad level, very specific focus, combustion, controls, airflow, you know, six hour classes strictly on that one topic.
There is a test for the bronze. It's a closed book test. The Nora Silver certification is a license in the states of Vermont and New Hampshire.
That's what I was looking for. Well, as a county in New York. So we take the integrity of the test and the curriculum very seriously.
Sure. These states would not accept this as a license if that were lax at all. So it's taken quite seriously.
Passing. It's not a tough test, but passing is 78 for that reason, not a 65 or 70. Certification lasts for five years and CUs required to renew annually over the five years.
OK. Yeah. So you need CUs to renew it. Decisions made to go with CUs versus retesting, which some people do.
A lot of people do not much of a point in taking the same test over and over again every five years.
Just make sure you know what's new. Yeah. And the CUs are, you know, can change day to day.
It's we just feel it's really important that tech stay on top of this stuff, that the CUs are very important to, you know, continue education, to keep to move forward.
Well, we look at some of the comparable items. You look at your EPA 608, you know, unfortunately, a lot of times that's a one and done.
So wherever you entered the industry and you acquired your 608, because there are not those continuing education units or that re certification,
you're never really staying up to date what has changed based on those regulations.
And so that is another sector of our industry. I really hope to see change in the near future.
And I know, I know you go ahead and send the you can put it out there in the chat messages right now if you'd like to.
You can start throwing the virtual hammer at me. It really is very important to have those continuing education opportunities so you can see what those changes are.
I mean, think about that. If I would have taken that test and it was a one and done 30 years ago and I was still working in the industry,
I may not even be aware of the changes for biofuels and the new technologies that are now becoming part of my daily routine in my career.
Absolutely. That's why the decision was made to require CUs and eliminate retesting altogether.
So it's important the instructors will have to be certified and the instructors need CUs also.
That's a big reason for us hosting the National HVACR Education Conference is to bring light to our educators.
We're all educators. We've all been to this point where we've been in the field. We've gotten certified.
We start teaching. And then at some point we go, do I need to go back and re check on my certifications?
Because I just had to do it for myself for my own electrical license.
I couldn't find my electrical license and I had to go. Oh, my. Have I paid my dues?
Have I done my CEUs? And so I had to make a phone call for that.
But the education part of it, that's why we all joined together to be able to talk about the things that are happening in the industry,
to be more aware of how we need to stay up with technology for an industry.
I mean, think about these things that are changing.
I didn't even know that we had these opportunities, these changes, these advancements in our oil industry until just a few weeks ago.
And I had to go, oh, my, I'm so far behind.
I'm so far behind. I need to reach out. And that's how I found Bob.
And that's how this whole conversation started. So we all need our continued education for sure.
Absolutely. So Nora doesn't actually deliver this material ourselves.
We have trade school partners, public high schools, for profit trade schools, community colleges, state associations that run private trade schools.
So we partner with approximately 50 or so. Sure. Across the country.
We'd love to expand if anybody's out there and would be interested in being able to add Nora certification for their students as a little value add.
Love to have you. But we depend upon these partners, which is great.
I mean, it's really the only way to do it, to spread it over such a huge footprint.
Absolutely.
A little bit of the drawback is the instructors themselves.
How much do you really know about them? They have to be certified. We check them every so often.
But we want to step up the level of that also. So most of them have come from the technical side.
They've come out of the field. So they usually have great technical skills. They know the material.
Classroom skills. I got to deal with people now. Yeah, it's the classroom skills in some cases maybe lacking.
So we're right. We're doing some work in that. But we partner with all these schools and their different constituencies, public high school kids.
We're really not going to do much with them. They're licensed by the state. It's a public high school.
It is what it is in that situation. The state's vetting all these teachers. And they're high school kids.
We can't treat them as we do the adults. So we're going to focus more of it on the adults.
The community college is in the trade school. So this is a two week curriculum.
Doesn't have to be done in one shot, but basically it's about 80 hours or so.
So most of the two year community colleges just folded into their bigger two year.
It's a couple of weeks within their two year or 18 month program. Yes. Sure.
Now what about equipment? Are they actually working on live equipment?
One of the requirements to be a partner is that you have live fire equipment. You need hands on.
Would you want a surgeon who never was in the operating room or a lawyer who never stepped foot in the courtroom?
I mean, during COVID it was great with the Zoom, but I mean, it really brought it home that this is a hands on business.
A lot of techniques, they're tactile learners. You need that hands on. I think it's vital.
So it is one of the requirements to be certified that there is a functioning piece of equipment.
At least one. Most have multiple, in some cases dozens.
Now you were mentioning earlier an opportunity to actually do some of the live fire at a conference and expo.
Is that something that you host as well, additional opportunities?
Yes. In addition to the consumer education and technical education, research and development is a big part of what Nora does.
And almost all of that research for the last 10 years or so has been focused on transitioning to biofuels,
eliminating the technical barriers to adoption of high blends of biofuel.
So as part of that, we have a quartz cylinder, which is basically a glass tube,
but it's made of quartz crystal clear with a burner in it and we can fire from different fuels on site.
This is going to be the Eastern Energy Expo in May.
Oh boy, I like that idea.
Actually some videos up on the website too. You can see it from last year's.
But we can transition from fuel to fuel from B0 petroleum to B5, 5% bio, B20, B50 and up to B100.
We have a combustion analyzer on it so the techs can see exactly what happens.
The differences in the fuel mixture.
Yeah, when you change it. The tubing is clear so you can see when the transition happens.
Man, I want to see this myself.
Yeah, it's pretty cool. It always draws a crowd.
If I'm a school and I'm looking for opportunities to expand and maybe become part of this program,
is the best way through the website or is it through contacting somebody direct?
They can contact me directly or through the website, either one. There's a tech school application box on the website.
It's not that tough. Especially in the states where we're underrepresented, we'd love to expand the footprint.
Sure.
Hopefully the schools would find it a benefit to offer certification to their students.
And education for those programs.
Absolutely. Yeah, there's five million out there. Somebody's going to fix them.
They're going to be around for a while.
Alright everyone, have a wonderful day. We thank you so much for spending your time hanging out with us.
So thanks again. We'll see you next week.