1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:07,600 Welcome to the Windshield Chronicles, a mental sequence of operation. 2 00:00:07,600 --> 00:00:10,880 This episode sponsored by Sunrise Refrigeration. 3 00:00:10,880 --> 00:00:22,880 Learn more about Sunrise Refrigeration at SunriseRef.com. 4 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:25,600 Dennis Sukup, thank you for joining us once again. 5 00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:30,160 Let's dive a little into building and designing a box. 6 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:34,640 Cliff, walk-in box is one of my favorite things. 7 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:36,800 Something I love to do every day. 8 00:00:36,800 --> 00:00:37,800 Even my guys are amazed. 9 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:43,340 I just went out and finished a big 42 foot long glass door box for a new liquor company 10 00:00:43,340 --> 00:00:44,340 here in Las Vegas. 11 00:00:44,340 --> 00:00:47,080 And I love sizing and designing walk-in boxes. 12 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:51,480 So I think one of the most important steps is first off, you got to meet the customer. 13 00:00:51,480 --> 00:00:53,520 You got to know your audience. 14 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:54,880 Know the customer. 15 00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:56,400 What is he doing? 16 00:00:56,400 --> 00:00:57,520 What's his business? 17 00:00:57,520 --> 00:00:59,920 How is he going to use this box? 18 00:00:59,920 --> 00:01:03,800 Because once I start the layout, I want to see how he's going to load it. 19 00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:05,640 So I know which way to swing the doors. 20 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:07,080 Do my hinges go on the left? 21 00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:08,940 Do my hinges go on the right? 22 00:01:08,940 --> 00:01:12,720 You don't want to be banging into the door when you're coming with a hand cart full of 23 00:01:12,720 --> 00:01:13,720 food. 24 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:14,800 You want to have a natural flow. 25 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:19,600 So that begins part of the layout when I draw it on paper before I go to the manufacturer. 26 00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:24,360 But above and beyond that, one, now I need to know what size box. 27 00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:25,480 Can he fit? 28 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:28,360 When he says to me, I want an 8 by 12 box. 29 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:29,360 Okay. 30 00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:30,360 How high is that box? 31 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:32,400 8 by 12 by 8 feet high. 32 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:35,880 Now typically, I will go to the Heatcraft engineering manuals. 33 00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:39,960 I have found that to be one of the best tools, one of the most accurate. 34 00:01:39,960 --> 00:01:44,360 I have done walk-in boxes by letting other people tell me what I needed. 35 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:48,600 And I'm sorry, they lived in San Diego and the weather in Las Vegas is not San Diego. 36 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:49,600 Exactly. 37 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:52,360 So three months out of the year, that box would not run. 38 00:01:52,360 --> 00:01:59,800 And I have to be performing as well on July 4th at 110 degrees as I do on New Year's Day. 39 00:01:59,800 --> 00:02:03,080 So you have to learn to do your own calculations. 40 00:02:03,080 --> 00:02:07,640 So when you use the Heatcraft manual, there's an average and there's a heavy usage. 41 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:11,560 Well, I always stick with heavy usage. 42 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:16,240 And this design work on this is just kind of a generic for restaurant operations. 43 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:21,840 We have the expectation that there's a certain amount of product that comes in refrigerated 44 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:23,040 already. 45 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:27,840 It's not coming from a field, but it's coming from a refrigerator. 46 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:29,440 And you're going to continue that. 47 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:31,160 And it could be multiple type things. 48 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:35,040 It's got lettuce, tomatoes, chicken, maybe beer kegs, whatever. 49 00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:41,500 So you go to the engineering manual, I select the BTUs for heavy usage for that size box. 50 00:02:41,500 --> 00:02:42,500 That's my foundation. 51 00:02:42,500 --> 00:02:44,700 Now I'm looking for extra things. 52 00:02:44,700 --> 00:02:47,080 Is there forklift entry? 53 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:48,360 Is there glass doors? 54 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:52,920 For an example, any glass doors like you see in a convenience store merchandiser, if it's 55 00:02:52,920 --> 00:03:00,840 a 35 degree box, those glass doors are going to cost you 1,360 BTUs per door. 56 00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:06,840 You got to add them up because that's part of the total BTU calculation that I'm headed 57 00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:08,200 for. 58 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:14,440 If it's a freezer, minus 10 degree glass door, 1,730 BTUs per door. 59 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:18,680 Adding that up, and now you're coming up with your grand total. 60 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:23,840 And let's say I'm at a grand total of 40,000 BTUs with everything factored in. 61 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:28,040 My lights, my people, my product, my glass doors. 62 00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:31,040 I have 40,000 BTUs that I need. 63 00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:34,540 I'm going to then step off and look for a compressor. 64 00:03:34,540 --> 00:03:39,360 Not for a compressor that can deliver 40,000 BTUs at 35 degrees. 65 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:40,840 Not at box temperature. 66 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:41,840 Right. 67 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:42,840 That's box temperature. 68 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:49,960 It has to give me 40,000 BTUs at 25 degrees because I have a 10 degree TD. 69 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:51,880 A 10 degree TD on that coil. 70 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:55,540 I need 25 degrees saturated suction temperature. 71 00:03:55,540 --> 00:04:00,640 That step causes most people to miss the mark because when they do that and they miss that 72 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:05,400 10 degrees, they can't get that box below 40 degrees or 45. 73 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:08,280 That's the first step mistake that was made. 74 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:12,960 Now I'm going to have to continue to interview the customer and find out where does he want 75 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:14,340 that compressor? 76 00:04:14,340 --> 00:04:17,920 Is it going inside the building on top of the box? 77 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:18,920 Is it conditioned? 78 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:19,920 Is it in the sun? 79 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:20,920 Right. 80 00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:24,280 When he says to me, no, I need it to be on the roof of the building. 81 00:04:24,280 --> 00:04:30,120 Well, the other important factor you need to know is I need that 40,000 BTUs no matter 82 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:32,620 what the temperature is outside. 83 00:04:32,620 --> 00:04:38,600 And I know now that when I go outside, the AHRI manuals are going to dictate that those 84 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:42,820 BTU calculations are based on 95 degrees. 85 00:04:42,820 --> 00:04:49,520 So first off, the three months in Las Vegas, I am well beyond the 95. 86 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:56,520 The deregulation factor for that is 6% for every 10 degrees beyond 95. 87 00:04:56,520 --> 00:05:01,320 So now my 40,000 has been dropped by 12%. 88 00:05:01,320 --> 00:05:06,720 This could cause me to select the next size bigger compressor. 89 00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:10,720 Because I still need the 40,000 downstairs is not changed. 90 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:11,720 Exactly. 91 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:14,200 The box BTU load is given. 92 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:15,600 That is not changing. 93 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:24,400 That's based on size, product, size, product, and other heat load factors, lights, indoors. 94 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:26,020 That is not going to change. 95 00:05:26,020 --> 00:05:33,680 The weather outside may, but I still need to deliver that 40,000 BTU. 96 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:37,520 The next thing you want to make sure of is when you have calculated out to your worst 97 00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:42,280 case scenario, let's say it's that 110 degree day is my worst case. 98 00:05:42,280 --> 00:05:48,880 I can't ever let my compressor output become smaller than the evaporator. 99 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:56,000 In other words, if I let that compressor on 110 degree days slip to 38,000 BTUs, my evaporator 100 00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:58,160 is based at 40,000. 101 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:00,880 I have just starved my evaporator. 102 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:04,080 By reducing the capacity of my outdoor unit. 103 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:09,280 The two things that technician is always looking for in setting superheat, is he flooding or 104 00:06:09,280 --> 00:06:11,320 is he starving the evaporator? 105 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:14,800 And he has to adjust expansion valves accordingly. 106 00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:18,540 When you have starvation built in, you can't fix it. 107 00:06:18,540 --> 00:06:19,880 You are starving. 108 00:06:19,880 --> 00:06:23,540 So the worst months of the year, your customer is going to be complaining. 109 00:06:23,540 --> 00:06:25,760 My box will not keep temperature. 110 00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:29,120 That technicians up there checking superheat and all he's going to do is overcharge. 111 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:30,120 Correct. 112 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:31,120 Correct. 113 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:34,800 He's going to try to compensate for something like that that he cannot do. 114 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:36,640 So now you have a balanced system. 115 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:39,320 You have a compressor that's going to do it year round. 116 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:41,880 You have an evaporators that are going to do it year round. 117 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:45,640 You have the expectation that I don't care how he loads that box. 118 00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:46,840 I'm going to guarantee you. 119 00:06:46,840 --> 00:06:48,120 And that's what I do here. 120 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:53,040 I guarantee you 35 degrees, 365 days a year. 121 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:58,080 If I can, in most cases, and this becomes a price factor, I put in what I call poor 122 00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:00,120 man's redundancy. 123 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:06,140 Now poor man redundancy might be, is let's say I need a five horsepower compressor with 124 00:07:06,140 --> 00:07:07,380 an evaporator. 125 00:07:07,380 --> 00:07:12,400 If I can break that box and divide it with an imaginary line and I can put two, two and 126 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:18,800 a half horsepower units and two evaporators inside that box, that's poor man redundancy. 127 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:21,320 Whereas one unit fails. 128 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:22,320 The panic is not there. 129 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:23,320 That's right. 130 00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:29,360 The second unit will keep my product refrigerated and it won't keep me at 35, but it won't keep 131 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:31,320 me at 65 either. 132 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:35,760 $20,000 worth of beer at 65 is not the same as. 133 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:36,760 Exactly. 134 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:41,840 If you have a big freezer full of gelato and ice creams and it goes down and you don't 135 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:46,440 have some sort of redundancy, the only thing you can get is a mop and a bucket. 136 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:47,440 Absolutely. 137 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:48,440 Okay. 138 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:52,440 So putting the box together, putting boxes together is not real complicated. 139 00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:54,280 I love it because it's like a puzzle. 140 00:07:54,280 --> 00:07:57,960 You get it from the manufacturer, you get a nice blueprint. 141 00:07:57,960 --> 00:07:59,880 You've already designed it or I've designed it. 142 00:07:59,880 --> 00:08:03,840 So I kind of know where it's going to go and its shape and size. 143 00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:08,720 And you begin to look at which corner do I want to begin building so I don't make a trap. 144 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:14,040 And then the key parts are getting your panels lined up, put into place, and they're usually 145 00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:16,200 locked together with a cam lock. 146 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:21,960 But one of the most steps that I see missed and I get a lot of calls from owners to say, 147 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:23,120 what can you do to fix this? 148 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:29,320 This is happening to me is the step is what we call putting butyl to the warm side of 149 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:30,320 the box. 150 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:34,900 So you think of the box, it's four inches thick of foam with a cam together lock. 151 00:08:34,900 --> 00:08:40,660 So the outside panel, the outside edge of the panel is the warm side where you're standing 152 00:08:40,660 --> 00:08:43,060 in the box is the cold side. 153 00:08:43,060 --> 00:08:49,960 So you draw a line of butyl caulking from top to bottom on that panel before you squeeze 154 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:51,860 it together and lock it. 155 00:08:51,860 --> 00:08:57,400 And that butyl will squeeze in there and fill in all the gaps where air might go. 156 00:08:57,400 --> 00:09:02,440 Now if air can get in past the gasketing, it's going to look like under a microscope, 157 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:08,000 like a Christmas tree shape, a dart, if you will, as it freezes and it will freeze and 158 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:10,220 start to separate that panel. 159 00:09:10,220 --> 00:09:15,120 The more it separates it, the more air that gets in and it starts to compound itself to 160 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:18,140 where it actually will destroy a box. 161 00:09:18,140 --> 00:09:23,080 And I've seen owners all fall out and they'll put silicone over it. 162 00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:24,740 It's not going to fix it. 163 00:09:24,740 --> 00:09:26,440 The air is still going to get in there. 164 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:28,740 And that's the step that I most often see. 165 00:09:28,740 --> 00:09:32,680 They think you can just lock it together and the gaskets will take care of it. 166 00:09:32,680 --> 00:09:38,520 There's a fine line in the instruction manual that says apply butyl to the warm side. 167 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:40,560 If you have a floor, you have to think about it. 168 00:09:40,560 --> 00:09:44,960 The warm side is the part that's touching the concrete, not the part you're standing 169 00:09:44,960 --> 00:09:45,960 on. 170 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:50,400 If it's the ceiling, it's the warm side is the top of the box, not the part you're looking 171 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:51,680 at when you're in it. 172 00:09:51,680 --> 00:09:56,360 And it's tedious because you got to have one guy I have on my crew, he's got the gun in 173 00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:57,360 the tubes. 174 00:09:57,360 --> 00:10:02,000 And as the panels, we stand them in place, we step back a second, he draws a bead of 175 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:05,840 caulking and then we lock it together and squeeze it together. 176 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:12,160 So you now know no air can penetrate from the warm side and get in to the box. 177 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:17,860 If you tried to do it on the cold side, four inches, that air is going to come in into 178 00:10:17,860 --> 00:10:23,200 that four inch space and be right up against the internal side of the box. 179 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:27,600 And possibly introduce moisture into the foam area in between the panels. 180 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:28,600 I've seen that here. 181 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:30,160 And it does over a period of time. 182 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:33,400 It separates, it destroys and it ruins the panels. 183 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:40,000 So key things there, BTU sizing, make sure you know the customer, know the BTU loads, 184 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:41,320 don't leave anything out. 185 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:45,760 Calculate for lights, forklifts, people working inside boxes. 186 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:49,240 There's a lot of manufacturing places that are packaging and doing things. 187 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:51,240 All of those are heat loads. 188 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:55,240 Heatcraft engineering manual will give you factors on all of those. 189 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:57,640 Getting all your BTUs added up right. 190 00:10:57,640 --> 00:10:58,960 Account for your losses. 191 00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:04,000 If you're going to be in high ambient locations with that compressor, think about poor man's 192 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:05,000 redundancy. 193 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:08,980 It kind of makes you the savior when you're talking to your customer because you're thinking 194 00:11:08,980 --> 00:11:12,720 about their best interest when you're building the box. 195 00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:18,760 And calculate those BTUs so that you are not starving your evaporator on the hottest months. 196 00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:21,920 And sometimes you have to protect yourself on the coldest months. 197 00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:23,840 I still do that here in Las Vegas. 198 00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:27,000 I like using Headmaster mixing valve. 199 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:30,640 So when the ambience drop below 60, that's the tough part. 200 00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:34,120 When air conditioners are shutting off, walk-in boxes still have to run. 201 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:36,600 So we have to keep that head pressure up. 202 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:41,400 So you're thinking about low ambient as well as I'm thinking about high ambient. 203 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:44,640 High ambient based on my BTUs that I need. 204 00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:49,840 Low ambient ensuring that I'm pushing that refrigerant down that liquid line with enough 205 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:52,120 pressure on a cold winter night. 206 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:58,040 When you do that, you can guarantee that temperature 365 days a year. 207 00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:01,520 What about metering device selection on our boxes? 208 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:07,760 Well, metering device selections are based again on BTU, based again on the evaporator. 209 00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:14,640 Just because you have a, like the air conditioners, you have a five horsepower compressor unit 210 00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:19,360 on a roof does not dictate that you have a five ton expansion valve in a coil. 211 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:23,400 It's going to be based on the BTUs of that coil. 212 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:27,640 I got to tell you today, things are so much, there's so many new controls. 213 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:32,920 We use a lot of this key to thermostats that have built in defrost capabilities for medium 214 00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:34,280 temp boxes. 215 00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:37,280 Those are fantastic to prevent ice buildups. 216 00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:39,400 And quite frankly, I'm a fan. 217 00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:44,520 If I can get an electronic expansion valve in there, I'm an absolute fan. 218 00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:49,600 Because the electronic expansion valve, number one, it's going to have 256 plus steps in 219 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:50,600 it. 220 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:55,480 It's going to do a lot of smart thinking for me and knowing where's that superheat at, 221 00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:59,320 where am I operating the best and how do I get there the fastest? 222 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:03,680 So that means can I open up and then adjust down so that I can get right to that right 223 00:13:03,680 --> 00:13:05,000 amount of superheat. 224 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:09,320 And the second thing is, is when it does, the key to thermostats tells it to cycle off 225 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:15,280 in today's code, it's going to pump down saving me from having to have a solenoid valve and 226 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:21,560 then allow my fans to switch to a low speed saving energy, meaning the 2020 walk in box 227 00:13:21,560 --> 00:13:23,280 code. 228 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:25,920 So electronic expansion valves, my favorite. 229 00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:27,760 You can't go wrong there. 230 00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:33,840 And when you communicate that with some smart technology, two speed fans, key to thermostats, 231 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:38,380 programmable defrost for even medium temp type units, never getting that complaint of 232 00:13:38,380 --> 00:13:39,600 an iced up coil. 233 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:41,840 Absolutely the way to go. 234 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:48,480 Expansion valves either way, BTU is based on a coil, not horsepower based on a compressor. 235 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:49,480 Awesome. 236 00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:51,840 Dennis Hucup, thank you so much for your time. 237 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:54,120 Once again, we sure appreciate you being here with us. 238 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:55,120 Awesome. 239 00:13:55,120 --> 00:14:08,760 Happy New Year, Clifton.