Welcome to the Windshield Chronicles, a mental sequence of operation.
This episode brought to you by Dennis Sukup and Sunrise Refrigeration.
Learn more about Sunrise Refrigeration at SunriseRef.com.
Well thank you all for joining us once again.
We're hanging out with Dennis Sukup.
Dennis, thanks for joining us.
Glad to be here today, Cliffin.
Now a lot of people know Dennis from the HVAC excellence side of the business, but they
don't know him from the contractor side of the business.
So Dennis, tell us a little bit about your history in the business.
Well okay, my history in the business goes back to when my time in the Air Force was
ending and I realized I couldn't continue to do what I did in the Air Force because
the war was ending.
And I was able to have the Air Force send me to a night school as an adult in uniform
and I selected then an air conditioning program in Las Vegas that was at that time being taught
through the college but being taught at a local high school.
And from that I actually left there with basic skills of an air conditioning technician.
And as an air conditioning technician, I worked for a couple companies.
By 1981, I took the contractor's test, got my license, opened up my company as a carrier
dealer if you will, because that's what I was doing the most with.
And a lot of people ask me, well, how did you get so much into commercial refrigeration
and ice machines?
And my answer was I lied.
I was working on a rooftop at a Carl's Jr. and I came down the ladder after fixing the
air conditioner and the manager was in a panic going into lunch and said, can you fix my
milkshake machine?
And I just said, yeah, of course.
Sure, why not?
I'm here.
I took the book off their shelf in their office.
I went out to my truck and hurried up and sped through a few pages and I got lucky.
I fixed that milkshake machine and the next thing you know, they wanted me to be their
service company for at that time there were only four stores in Las Vegas.
Now there are 28.
And that led into a long history of becoming an ice machine distributor and a walk-in box
company in Las Vegas, which my company still does today.
And as a matter of fact, I too was in a training yesterday morning on a brand new type of ice
machine that is coming out.
So my entire company was in school yesterday morning for about four hours.
Oh man, I love it.
So you've been around and seen many changes in ice machines.
Well, let's talk about a sequence of operation of an ice machine.
So we're in our van, we're heading out to a job.
All we know is that we have a call for an ice machine.
Patch has no more information than that.
So let's mentally prepare ourselves before we get to this job.
And that takes me back a lot of years because it makes me think of when the first time I
took the cover off an ice machine, I had no idea what I was going to see or what to expect.
So yes, so now there, I don't know, probably a good seven major manufacturers of ice machines
out there today.
I'd say so.
And there's some slight variances between how they do things.
But the basic sequence of operation is going to be identical in all.
So if I were to start with that, the first thing I'm going to say is we're going to have
to take on some water.
Right now, some machines are going to use a float, which is a lot like a swamp cooler
or a toilet, if you will.
Sure.
Mechanical device.
Triple in until float says we're full.
Some machines are going to use electronic probes.
Probes being that when the water comes in touch with them, it sends a signal through
the water and there's an electronic board that will be involved in that machine.
It says I now have a batch of water.
And from that batch of water, I'm going to make a batch of ice.
So there the first step has been set up.
Now we're going to machine will turn on and it doesn't know sometimes how long it's been
off.
So that water that could be laying in there could be contaminated.
Right.
Who knows what's in there?
So a lot of machines will actually dump.
We call dump that or purge that.
Let that water go down the drain so we start with a brand new fresh fill cycle again.
So now we know we're hopefully taking on fresh and filtered water because there must be a
filter hopefully attached to that machine.
Now we begin the startup process.
So as the machine starts up, once the fill process is going, today's modern machines
are very clever.
We'll actually start with opening the hot gas valve.
Things going on right now, but by opening the hot gas valve, I've relieved the pressures
on both sides of the machine.
The high side is now dumped over and the high and low sides become equal.
Well, the neat part about that is it makes the compressor start without a big load already
on it.
So the start becomes soft.
I call that start and then again for five seconds, that compressor will come on and
that valve will still remain open.
Letting that compressor get up to RPM before it switches and starts to freeze process.
I want to explain that because a lot of technicians miss that.
They think there's something wrong right away.
So after that sounds a little different on startup.
It does.
It makes a big difference.
So now when that valve finally does close and it's only a matter of seconds, we begin
the actual freeze process.
My evaporator plate is going to start getting very cold.
My condenser is going to start getting very warm.
So the one thing we know about water is we freeze the purest of water at 32 degrees.
So this is now a cascade principle.
We have a sump.
We have that batch of water we talked about.
I got a water pump that's picking it up and if you will, it's running over a dam and that's
cascading down in and out through all the cells that make the ice.
And think about if we're freezing the purest of the water at 32 degrees, then all the garbage
in the water, I like to say the blood, guts and rocks, all of our impurities, minerals
to the sump.
Sure.
It's in the sump and it's now allowed to be in greater concentration because that's all
the filter does for us.
We can't filter out scale.
We can play with it.
We can change its molecular structure, keep it happier in a greater concentration.
So now that as I'm freezing that purest of ice, I have those concentrated minerals ready
to go down the drain and start the process again.
All right.
So that's what's happening.
The purest of the water is freezing in and out of these cells.
The garbage of the water is continuing to fall to the bottom and I'm finishing filling
in the cells.
Here's where we need the next device.
Something that has to tell us that ice is now present on the plate and is ready to be
harvested.
We like to see that the cells are filled in.
There could be a dimple there.
That's normal.
We want a bridge thickness of about an eighth of an inch.
In between each individual cell.
Right.
It's a webbing, if you will, connecting the cells together.
And that's only there so that when we harvest the ice, we can harvest it in a full sheet.
It should be an eighth of an inch because an eighth is just enough to keep it together,
but enough so you don't need a hammer to break it apart.
To break it apart.
Absolutely.
It should fall apart easily when it hits.
An ice scoop with a bartender should be able to break it up and use that ice without a
great difficulty.
And when people start to adjust and play with that thickness, well then there's a lot of
problems that occur with the machine and you start to lose production.
So as we build that ice, we now have either, we could have an ice thickness probe, a temperature
pressure control, or simply a sonar control that senses that the ice is there.
It's present, it's thick enough, it's ready to be harvested.
So boom, now we switch again, either a board or a relay and we're going to ask it to go
into hot gas, kind of like a heat pump.
We're going to reverse the cycle, start pumping the hot gas into the evaporator plate.
While that's going on, don't forget about that concentrated water.
We're sending that down the drain.
That's going down the drain now and we're flushing.
Getting out that debris.
To bring on some fresh water.
So the plate's getting warm, garbage water's going out and then pretty soon that capillary
action on the back of that ice will let go and it's going to fall into the bin.
Now when it falls into the bin, older machines will have a mechanical thermostat.
If the ice lays on that stat and gets cold, it's going to shut it off.
Newer machines will have just a damper, a damper that'll have incorporated a magnetic
switch so when the ice hits the damper, one, it's set up the stage for another cycle.
Or if the damper should stay open, then it's going to say, I must be a full bin and I'll
turn it off.
Right.
Okay.
So let's just assume that the bin is not full and we finally have harvested the ice.
We'll go ahead and that damper will go down, setting up the cycle.
It'll come right back up and go back into the free cycle.
Now in that case, we don't have to do that beginning part where we did the soft start
and we pre-chilled the evaporator.
That's another important step that a lot of machines are doing today.
We're pre-chilling the evaporator and that's what we call to prevent from slushing.
Slushing ice can be damaging to the pump and so forth.
But anyway, once we do that and that damper resets, we're ready to start with the free
cycle again and then move all the way forward to a harvest.
And if the damper should stay open, let's say for a number of minutes, 30 minutes or
whatever, it's telling us that ice is laying there.
It can't fall in the bin because the bin is full and it's waiting for someone to scoop
that ice, knock it loose.
And then the damper will start and we'll go back to that first step.
The first step where we purge the water, bring on the fresh water, soft start, and then recycle
again through the cascading principle, bringing the ice back to the plate to another harvest.
Fantastic.
Complete cycle.
One of the things that's, and some of the things that's kind of unique and I see as
test questions all the time is, you know, people will say what temperature is the evaporator
when ice is formed and they right away want to say 32 degrees.
Right.
Well, no, that's not true.
It has to be colder than 32.
It has to be colder.
It's got to have that saturated suction temperature.
Actually it's unique.
It started back in the old days of R12s when I used to log it in at 18 degrees Fahrenheit.
That was precisely the point when 32 degree water became 32 degree ice or the latent heat
of fusion took place.
So the evaporator was at 18 and if you looked at your charts of R12, there was your saturated
temperature where 32 degree water became 32 degrees ice.
And as we've migrated these years now into R290, those principles are coming back.
That R290 is a lot like the performance of R12.
For a while there, those pressures went way up in the years of 404.
Especially 404.
Yeah.
Right.
Now they're coming back down again to the R290s or is bringing it back down to where
at 18 degrees, we see that latent heat of fusion.
And if you're servicing an ice machine, it's fun to watch that exactly when it happens
because everything will be circulating and cascading like I talked about it.
And suddenly you can see that slush appear into your water sump.
Some machines will do different things to combat that.
They'll let maybe six minutes into the freeze cycle, they'll pause and pulse that incoming
water valve and shoot some incoming tap water or warm water to counteract that slushing.
Some machines have dampers or diverters in the trough to catch the slush before it gets
to the pump.
So the pump doesn't cavitate and pick up that slush.
And then of course now most machines will pre-chill.
Pre-chill meaning once we soft started that compressor, we'll let the evaporator freeze
down a little bit with no pump running, no water, get it nice and cold, and then bring
the water down and start that cascading principle.
And it really is unique to watch that, to see it freeze the best of the water.
That's what you have to think about.
I'm freezing the best of that batch of water to the plate and letting the garbage cascade
out.
Those minerals and those deposits freeze at colder temperatures than 32.
That's why we're able to almost purify the water during that cascading principle.
So having an incoming filter is a good thing.
It allows you to stay in solution and it's not going to prevent you from having to clean
the machine, but it's going to help you.
It won't stick to the sides and the parts as hard as it does without a filter.
What about a general sequence of operation for cleaning a machine while we're talking
about those heavy minerals?
So a good cleaning process.
The older machines, the other was absolutely not a mechanical type process.
The new machines today are pretty simple.
They got reminders in them.
They're going to tell the owner and tell the technician, hey, I'm due for cleaning.
And they're pretty much a plug and play.
You can actually push the button and say, do you want to clean and sanitize?
Yes.
And then it's going to tell you, okay, now you add your chemical and basically you stand
back and the machine will circulate.
It'll flush, clean, flush, clean, and then it'll tell you it's time to add sanitizer.
Now let's go beyond that.
And this is a kind of a frustrating part for me when some people think you just pour a
bottle of chemicals in it and you're done.
That's not the case at all.
So first off in effectively cleaning an ice machine and here in Las Vegas, we have some
pretty tough water.
People say, is it hard water in Las Vegas?
We'll take a look at the Grand Canyon.
Tell me what you think.
We cut it.
That's a lot of water.
That's hard water.
Okay.
So I like to start off with you take a lot of the removable parts, take that splash
curtain off, take that damper out, take the water sump tray out, get all that stuff to
a three compartment sink if you can, and get it soaking in some solution to help you thoroughly
get all of it.
You know, then's the time I reassemble all of that and add some chemicals so that it
can cascade over the evaporator plate.
And you're going to need a brush.
You need a little bit of a brush to make sure you're breaking that calcium deposits up and
you're getting all of that off of there.
But there's one important thing that people don't know about ice machine cleaners.
There's a couple of grades.
I recommend check the manufacturer because those plates are coated with certain materials.
And if you can use the wrong ice machine cleaner, you'll damage the evaporator plate.
But you're not done there.
You're not done there because there is the problem of the, what we call pink slime or
bacteria slime.
All the ice machine cleaner in the world will not touch the slime and bacteria.
You're not done until you've sanitized that machine.
Sanitizer is a separate little bottle, a separate chemical.
You put it in, let that circulate through the system inside and outside all of your
tubes, through your cascading system, down the evaporator.
And now you're sanitizing and killing bacteria.
Very important in places that bake bread, throw beer cans down the drain because the
soon as that yeast goes airborne, it's looking for the coldest, wettest place to live.
Right.
And where's that?
In your ice machine.
And the minute the health department comes in, they're going to lift the lid.
They're going to slide a mirror underneath that water tray and they're going to see stalactites
of slime.
And where's that slime dripping and falling?
On top of the ice.
Now again, you're not done because a lot of guys used to do this.
In an ice machine with a bin full of ice.
I'm sorry, but all that you're not going to contain that chemical.
You have to do what we call in the trade, burn that ice.
You're going to have to get rid of it.
Think about what you're doing with it before you start.
I usually tell the bartenders, let's fill up your station because you're going to be out
of ice for a little while.
Get that ice out of the bin because if you haven't taken sanitizer and sloshed and mopped
it all around the internal liner of the bin, you have not completed your job.
You have not sanitized.
That's food and that's where the food is being stored.
A lot of students used to ask me, well, Mr. Sukup, how do you know when the ice machine's
actually clean?
And my answer was when I let my grandkids have a drink.
Very good point.
Dennis Sukup, thank you so much for joining us today.
We appreciate your time.
You bet.
Great.