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Welcome back to Teaching the Unteachables, where we dive into methods for teaching and

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learning for professionals like you.

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This episode is sponsored by Professional HVACR Services, Incorporated.

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Check out ProHVACR.com for more information.

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Alright everyone, thank you so much for joining us today.

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We're hanging out with Joe Kakanda.

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Joe, how are you this morning?

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Outstanding, beautiful in Ohio finally.

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You know, we met at the 2023 National HVACR Education Conference and there are certain

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people in life, when you're a storyteller, there are certain people that when you meet

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them you know there's going to be some good conversations out of this.

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I felt the same thing.

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Howard, Howard, not to interject real quick, Howard, we gotta meet, we gotta meet, we gotta

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meet.

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You know, he emailed me three times and texted me, don't forget Clifton, we hooked up.

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So it was a great experience, Clifton.

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We have such an opportunity to talk about how life is sculpted where we are and the

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ways that life turns out not exactly how we intended them to be.

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And so we're going to talk about that a little bit today.

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We have our perspectives of what HVAC refrigeration are going to look like when we jump into it,

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but we never know until we get there and sometimes the journey is just as enjoyable or even more

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enjoyable than the actual job itself.

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So Joe, tell us a little bit about you getting into the industry and some of the tales from

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the trenches that you encountered, especially in them first years.

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Yeah, very good.

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So talk about being coachable.

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I was a typical jock and went in the Navy real quick after my first quarter in college

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ended up being a disaster.

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You know, the typical 1974, 75 era.

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That being stated, going into the military, not only did it grow me up, it taught me a

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lesson, the lesson that I'm still living from 48 years later.

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And that lesson is how do you teach an unteachable?

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I was uncultured.

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I was a hard head.

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I was a jock that had never won a high school football game.

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I was Oh, and 40.

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So success to me, it was back in those days of being able to perform right now.

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We're trying to perform in the Navy.

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They taught me how to use deadweight testers.

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I hooked up capacitors.

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Yeah.

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I learned capacitance by using DC capacitors and believe this or not, electric refrigeration

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made by the Japanese in the 1970s that was on board our ship, USS Independence.

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My five year apprentice is apprenticeship, if you will, from 17 M 32s, you know, rod

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and chillers rod and condensers.

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We hooked up a carrier six cylinder refrigeration unit to one of the refridgerator decks and

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had to pump out a flooded machinery room with a frickin carrier compressor folks.

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Really?

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Yes.

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That's just a pump.

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It didn't like, hey, it didn't last very long, but it didn't like liquid.

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That's right.

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So that was in my first five years and I didn't know what a pair of voice scripts were.

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Yep.

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So when I got out of the apprenticeship, the five years, the Navy, they went ahead and

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sent me to an A school.

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I ended up on an aircraft carrier and as a push button before I had to do five years

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and I showed up on ship and kind of like a total little lie.

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And you're going to love this.

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The little lie that I told when I found out during the walk around tours being in engineering

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and going up and down the eight machinery rooms and seeing all the boilers and 120 degree

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temperature, I had quickly decided at the age of 18 being thespian in nature, that this

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was not going to be a very good experience.

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Yeah.

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This is going to be work.

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No.

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So they called me in, they said, Hey, where do you want to go?

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And in my mind, I'm in front of this guy with khakis on, I'm just an 18 year old kid still

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hadn't turned 19.

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And I said, my father had a bar across the street from the Ford plant and we were very

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busy and I helped him take care of the refrigeration and air conditioning by changing filters and

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poof, they signed me to the AC and our shop.

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Yeah.

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And all I could say walking out of that room.

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I was an experienced dude.

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Lo and behold, being teachable and coachable was a learned trait.

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I found out very quickly that everyone on board that ship was smarter than me.

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I'm talking every single person that had been there longer than me was smarter than me.

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All right.

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Because they already had the experience.

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Not knowing what a pair of vice grips were at the age of 18, 48 years later, having worked

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on anything that moves fluid or heat in any fashion, whether it be absorbers, cascades,

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CO2, propane, it does not matter.

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And I love working with chlorine tanks, rail cards, I've worked all the ammonia.

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I choose refrigeration.

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And basically, well, it's a beautiful thing.

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I'm glad you asked.

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In order for this process to work to us, for us to be able to entice the young to come

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for us, with us.

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We have to, we have to paint a picture.

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The picture we need to paint to recruit these 20 somethings, my friend, needs to be able

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to make them understand that you have the ability to change the world in refrigeration.

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Oh my goodness.

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That's it.

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People don't understand that, do they?

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No, we have to change the world.

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Think about what, think about how much refrigeration is in a daily life.

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You know, everywhere you go.

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I mean, even, even when you open up your household refrigerator and you look at the condition

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of the ice in the water filtration systems, and now all the smart devices, even in the

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homes is mind boggling.

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And so to get down to the basics in commercial refrigeration, industrial refrigeration, not

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so much, but commercial refrigeration, we delve a little bit also into helping hospitals

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preserve the blood.

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It's a very important thing.

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It's been in the news the last five years.

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You've heard all the stories.

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So that's going to track them because without that, we're back to hunting.

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Okay.

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And preserving everything in salt.

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With salt.

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That's all I understood.

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You know, most people don't understand that we haven't, we haven't designed an emergency

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generator system for a grocery store to handle the refrigeration since the 1980s.

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Right?

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There is not a grocery store in this country made in the last 40 years that is capable

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of running the refrigeration off from the generator.

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That big generator outside is just for lighting.

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So if we lose electricity, we're out of food in three days.

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No doubt.

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So refrigeration is the heart of the sustainability of our entire civilization.

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No doubt.

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And so, you know, it comes down to this, you know, product loss is the bane of any society

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and whether it's being shipped overseas and lost on the cargo ships or over land, the

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food chain is broken and we can do our part here sustainability wise with what we do at

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Pro Green and Pro and what the kids have started.

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God bless them.

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Going forward, it's important that we stem the problem of product loss in our markets.

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And what I'm seeing going on with the technology, we love Rusty Walker, we love Hill Phoenix

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Usman.

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We learn from all of these people.

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The problem that I see is again, the systemic product loss when there's failure in the markets

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on the power supply.

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And so there's lots of solutions out there, but the kids need to get together, the young

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and come up with a plan.

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And that's we want to tap those young minds.

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We want to make sure, Clifton, that the young 28 year olds, 26 year olds, they've tried

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things we need to figure out a way to entice them.

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And that's going to be through social media.

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Glassdoor, put your story on.

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We went ahead and Glassdoor and got new marketing and just by putting the CEO story on, we went

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from nine hits annually to 111 hits in a week.

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And I did this just when I was at Southpoint.

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I actually went ahead on Glassdoor and so we're going to go ahead and market the heck out

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of these 20 somethings.

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Excuse me, everybody says this and you got to agree.

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You know, these kids, they don't know how to think.

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That's the only thing that I'm going to agree with.

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Everything else negative that they say about the 20 somethings and it's bantered about

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our friend Ty.

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He comes out and tells us all the stories.

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It's just canned goods.

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You can teach if the person's curious.

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That's all that it takes.

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That's it.

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You can make them curious.

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I was talking to a guy yesterday, Greg Castro.

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He's actually going to be on one of our podcasts.

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You should go back and take a look at it.

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You know, 29 year old guys in the automotive industry, early twenties just by chance went

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into a age fact apprenticeship as a install helper.

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Seven years later, he's an educator because he said in those first few weeks, he caught

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the bug.

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Wow.

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He had no idea how much air conditioning and refrigeration was around him until he went

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to take this job to be an install helper and went, I have to absorb this and I have to

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absorb everything I can because I had no clue.

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And that is exactly what is going to change our industry.

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When we start painting a better picture of what this industry can look like.

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I mean, think about that.

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Think about those ships that you were on.

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We're talking a hundred million dollar ships, 18 year old, 19 year old walking into a machine

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room that's got millions of dollars worth of equipment going, you want to work on this?

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That's right.

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And when you think about that too, Clifton, remembering now that it's 2023 versus 1975,

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what I've learned from discussions like this with people that are much smarter than me,

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I like to say, and it's not tongue in cheek.

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I am not the brightest P in the pot.

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And I do understand though and believe this is that there's so many smart people out there

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that to get them to perform to their abilities is our task.

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I mean, there's no doubt.

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If we, if we browbeat, if we browbeat anyone, okay.

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Now good natured browbeating, that's part of the trades.

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I get it.

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Oh yeah.

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That just goes with it.

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That's the fun part.

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Everybody gets a nickname, right?

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And we're in our interview process and we asked the 20 something, what do your friends call

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you?

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And they look at me, you know, wide eyed and I said, what's your nickname?

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They says, well, they call me Popo.

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I said, well, that may not work here.

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You know what I'm saying?

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So, but don't give me a tag.

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I warned them when I hire them, I said, you know, you're going to get tagged.

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Somebody's going to nickname you bumper the pump.

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So starting right from the interview process, it's pop painting a picture.

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It is, it's more involved, like you said, back with the analogy of all the equipment,

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a wide eyed, I mean, we've got some things when we open up rack motor rooms that have

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been converted to E3, E2, and they see all the blinking lights and everything automatically.

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They already understand that something about, you know, with technology here.

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Wow.

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What is this?

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This is not what I thought was going on inside this room.

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I didn't even know this room was in here.

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We had a plan at the Oberlin IGA to do a transcritical CO2.

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They're one of the cities that was supposed to be carbon neutral by 2030, one of the 16

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cities under Obama.

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We've been very involved there.

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That being stated, I almost bought an old Tops market in Sandusky.

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It's a basement rack system.

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It's a closed supermarket in Sandusky, Ohio.

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I was going to put walkable glass over the floor where you can see the machinery room.

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As the shoppers were going with their kids and their five year olds and everything, and

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the kids would look down, just make sure, well, you have to put a sign up, make sure

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you don't do things in the floor drain because you're being watched.

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Right.

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Right.

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There you go.

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These types of things are fun.

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It's great analogy, but I had a vision.

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I wanted to get the young involved in saying and pointing, mama, what's that?

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Mama's saying, I don't know.

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Automatically, that kid's going to be curious.

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Oh, absolutely.

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It is.

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All right.

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One out of 10, that's all we need.

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One out of 10 kids going in the markets where you can see the equipment, somewhat similar

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to the Walgreens that they built in Chicago that I visited, the first net zero pharmacy

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in the country.

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And I visited that place.

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You know what I found out?

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This is great.

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Here's what I found out.

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Number one, it's only as good as the person that puts it in.

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Number two, 42 wells had increased in temperature five degrees in two years time.

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And so what I learned is, is that if technology understands, okay, how to move heat, if technology

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understands how to move heat, then where's the disconnect between the engineering and

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the installers?

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We have room for improvement in this whole industry of refrigeration.

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Just that part of it.

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Just that part of it.

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So that's where I'm at.

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And I'm very, very passionate.

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Our team, we're fortunate enough to have some brilliant kids on board.

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I call them kids, you know, 40, 35 year old, they're grown people.

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But to me, they're kids.

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And so I learned from them at the age of 67 almost on a daily basis by asking questions.

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The kids always come back to me, Clifton, and you've probably heard this before.

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They come back and says, well, dad's asking a question or the general manager or supervisor,

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pops is asking a question.

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He already has a good idea what the answer is.

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They're thinking this before they answer because I've told them, yeah, I've told them.

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I said, you know, when I ask a question, I got a good idea how you're going to answer.

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It's the teaching process.

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That's right.

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They already know this.

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And so going forward, we have a staff that is thinking cognitively every day.

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And that's what's so important refrigeration.

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What we're moving into now is so rewarding.

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We're building widgets, sustainable type widgets.

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We're working with Honeywell and other entities to have the global warming taken care of.

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All these 20 somethings about teaching the unteachable.

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All these 20 somethings are going to hear our message.

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Absolutely.

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But they want to make a difference in the world.

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You know, I've got a 15 and an 18 year old daughter, stepdaughters here at home, one

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getting her head off to college.

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The other one is not really as interested in college.

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She wants to make a difference in the world and she wants to go into the world and change

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it.

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And that is the thing that has grown so much in this generation.

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And I think that you hit on that.

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We say a lot of things about this generation because they have developed at a very different

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pace and with a very different standard than many of us have in the past.

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And so some of us are unfamiliar with the pace that they have grown into, but we forget

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about the pace that they've grown, that they are very advanced, that they want to make

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a difference, that they are very intellectual and they are a generation that actually speaks

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about things.

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Oh my gosh.

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Ty Braneman, of course, did the podcast down with Brian or another friend of ours.

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And then I listened to it on a Sunday morning three times, shared it with everyone, took

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it, went actually and went on Amazon and bought Hannah's book and hooked up with her on LinkedIn.

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And I'm 50-50 on it, but I'm in agreement a thousand percent with a lot of what she's

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trying to do is let us, the different generations all the way up to my age, understand them

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a little bit better.

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So it did open my eyes and Ty, I sent him a message.

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I will send him another message.

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You don't have to drink all the Kool-Aid in everyone's book, but what you want to do is

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pick and choose for your business model what's important that we put out there.

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And so because of safety concerns, these kids can be walking around in a motor room, you

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know, tick-tocking away unless it's produced and we can't force them to do that.

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But what we can do in our policy manuals is say, hey, you know, personal cell use is now

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allowed on the job sites as long as you get your work done.

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If you put that small statement, some of the people that want to share what they do because

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they want to be proud of what they do will then enhance, that's right.

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They'll enhance to teach the unteachable.

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All right.

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That's exactly it.

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Yes, sir.

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I'll be doing a online class for us here in a couple of weeks for the online portion of

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the conference.

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And it'd be on the four generations of learners and just discussing how four generations learn

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in slightly different ways.

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So it's all about understanding the people around you.

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Well, without people like Ty yourself and Brian or Mike, the HVAC guy, all the people

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that we know, you know, the A.I. and LinkedIn has gotten so much better in the last 18 months.

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Now I'm not getting I mean, if you look at one tearjerker, OK, like, you know, Amer,

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all these people, because they tell a story because they're woo woo people from India.

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They're also in your feed.

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And so it's a well-balanced input that LinkedIn start putting together.

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I remember listening to your podcast for an hour and a half driving, I think, to Kentucky

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just recently.

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One of the first ones that was on LinkedIn is an hour and a half long.

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It's about the refrigerant transition.

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OK, absolutely.

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And you were you were managing it.

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You were behind the booth.

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And I listened that all hour and a half, OK, as I was driving.

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And that's another story for another day.

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Well, I got to learn.

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If I can't if I shut down my mind because my body has shut down, my friend at this age,

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I can't do what I want to do, which is be out there with the guys.

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And so I've relegated myself to be the advocate.

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Well, it's more of more of a sensei type thing.

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OK, with the weedhoppers, with the weedhoppers, the method of creating an analogy to explain

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thermodynamics, pressures, voltages, we're very heavy into what Dr. Silverstein is into.

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We're very heavy into the electrical aspect.

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And most of the educators do understand that 90 percent of our problems are the way it's

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controlled.

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And so we're very, very heavy in using an analogy.

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You know, I learned from Dr. Silverstein just a month ago.

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He says, hey, you know, a closed circuit means a closed door.

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That means the goons can't get through.

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And I said, hmm, that makes sense because an open circuit means you go through.

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So it's backwards.

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And so now I have an analogy to take to the youngsters and say, OK, a closed circuit is

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a good thing.

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An open circuit is a bad thing, regardless of whether an open door requires you to walk

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through it or not.

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Electricity and pumps, they don't work that way.

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OK.

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And so Dr. Silverstein is brilliant.

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All you guys, I highly recommend ESCO.

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We've done the RSC training through ESCO, our EPA through ESCO.

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Howard and Renee and the team, everyone over there, including yourself, is a great experience

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for our small company here in Cleveland.

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Joe Kukenda, it's an honor to have you here with us and to get your perspective on life.

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We got to come back for round two and round 10.

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I hope we have some some comments relative to what you put out.

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I look forward to working with all of you.

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This is a good job.

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Thank you.

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Thank you.