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Ways to become a better speaker, listener, and follower.
Carbon monoxide poisoning is a very real danger.
Learn more at thejeakinsfoundation.com.
All right.
Thanks everyone for joining us.
We're spending some time with Chris Halshilt to discuss a big misperception in our industry,
to try to relearn something that should be around us every day and is typically not.
So Chris, thank you so much for joining us today.
You have an amazing story.
Let's talk about your life, how this has impacted you, and the efforts that you are pushing
forward in our industry to bring awareness to this scenario.
Sure.
And thank you for having me.
My name is Chris Halshilt.
I am with the Jenkins Foundation, which is a carbon monoxide awareness and advocacy nonprofit
based in Washington state.
We do a lot of national focus as well.
But I got into this because my parents both died of carbon monoxide poisoning in a hotel
room when they were on vacation in Boone, North Carolina about 10 years ago.
So the foundation is named for them, Daryl and Shirley Jenkins.
And that's how I became involved in this topic and have been working on it since that time.
OK.
So you didn't start in HVAC.
You were brought into the HVAC industry.
Right, right.
Which brings a very wonderful perspective that many of us don't always have.
So many times as technicians, we do the same things over and over, like life in general.
We do the same things over and over.
And sometimes we don't step back and have a different perspective.
So I always enjoy having a what I would say a third party, an outside perspective of how
things are going within our own industry and even as a reflection of our own practices.
Such a tragic story, but an opportunity to teach and educate.
And that's exactly what you're doing.
And we're so so grateful for this.
So what proceeded after that?
What changed your perception of the HVAC industry?
Well, what we came to learn after my parents died and and actually, I should say that their
deaths weren't identified as being CO related until there was a third death in the same
hotel room.
Oh, really?
Several weeks later, an 11 year old boy, he and his mom had both been placed into that
same room and the CO leak had not been identified.
The investigators were waiting for results of the toxicology testing on my parents blood
and the hotel put someone else into the room.
And so the boy lost his life.
His mom was permanently injured as a result of the CO leak that was still going on into
the room.
And it was only after that incident that it was investigated properly.
And we became aware of all of the circumstances that led to that happening, which was really
a series of events involving the natural gas fired pool heater that was located directly
below the room that was attached to not only that had problems itself, but was attached
to an exhaust system that was corroded inoperable exhaust fan on the outside of the building.
So a lot of different pieces that came together to result in very high levels of CO being
discharged into the hotel and specifically that room that coupled with the fact that
the hotel was not required to have installed CO detection.
So nobody knew what was going on.
Sure.
Nobody could appreciate why two people would be dead at the same time in the same room
that that was very eye opening to us that not only it was allowed to happen at that
facility, but we came to appreciate a larger picture of the fact that the state didn't
have requirements for hotels to have installed CO detection.
And really that was not unusual across the US.
A few states at that time had requirements in place.
And still there are a lack of requirements for hotels to have installed CO detection,
even if they have gas fired appliances installed.
And at that hotel, they had not only the gas fired pool heater, they had gas dryers, gas
water heaters, gas fireplaces in the guest rooms.
So just really amazing variety of gas appliances, right?
And no protection for the air in the building or the occupants.
So that was kind of where we started as far as our awareness of the fact that the safety
industry was not up to par.
Yeah, not what we thought it was.
Exactly.
I'm curious about the heater for the pool, because those are typically items that are
getting regular maintenance.
Was it an old heater that just hadn't been maintained in years?
What was the conclusion of that scenario?
So the pool heater had been replaced at least a couple of times.
And this particular pool heater had been installed used.
The hotel owned several other hotels.
The pool heater that had been there was broken in some way.
And they moved this pool heater from another hotel.
The hotel maintenance workers moved it and installed it.
Of course, not licensed to do it.
Oh, sure.
It had after that been converted about a year before my parents died, had been converted
against manufacturers instructions from propane to natural gas.
And then further, it had had issues and the person that had been quote unquote servicing
it was not commercially licensed.
So there were a number of things that in terms of that appliance that were problems.
There was also evidence they had been attempting to change out the gas valve.
And in addition to that, the problems with the exhaust system, the exhaust system, they
had pool chemicals stored in the utility room.
In the same facility, highly corrosive.
Right, highly corrosive.
So this vent system went across the ceiling of the pool room, hidden behind the ceiling
tiles so nobody could really see it.
Although it was staining on the ceiling tiles.
Oh, no kidding.
And the obvious evidence that the hotel maintenance people had been up there at different points,
you know, had ice hotel ice buckets actually under the ductwork catching the condensate
that was leaking out of the holes in the ductwork.
A VHS tape stuck underneath the part of it to support the places where it was crumbling
or the supports were gone.
And then the inoperable exhaust fan on the outside, which wasn't even wired into the
pool heater itself.
So the, you know, carbon monoxide was was coming from a lot of different places and
then accumulating in that ceiling space over time.
Right.
And when they did the testing afterwards, found that it was gaining entry into the room
through an unsealed opening in the firewall where the piping for the gas fireplace went
through.
And then the other entry point was from the I believe they're called the P-TAC units.
So there was an unsealed area around that unit and the exhaust fan vent for the pool
heater was right below where that intake was.
So whatever was managing to make its way out to the outside was actually being drawn back
internally around that unit below the window.
So those were the two entry points.
And then that coupled with an always on fan in the bathroom.
Constantly circulating, drawing negative pressure on the interior.
Right.
The negative pressure was a factor.
So yes.
Wow.
And these are things we don't always talk about in our industry.
You know, many times, you know, we get education on proper installation and commissioning.
We hope that there are standards set in place that are accepted locally, nationally.
But we know that there are scenarios in our industry.
So let's talk a little bit about the detection because as a consumer, I would assume that
any time that I'm placing my livelihood in the sleeping quarters of another facility,
a commercial facility, there should be some basic monitoring of air quality within that
facility.
What has been the what's been the results of that?
I know you've done a lot of studying on this particular topic.
I have.
The immediately after these two incidents happened, the state of North Carolina developed
legislation requiring CO detection in hotels.
But similar to the limited other states that actually require it through legislation, it's
only required in certain places of the building.
So it's seldom that you will find a hotel that has CO alarms in every guest room.
They're usually centered around a fuel fired device in a facility.
So the what limited requirements are in place are limited within the building itself.
Further, there's a lot of states that follow, for instance, the International Fire Code
or NFPA codes.
And so I've gotten involved in those codes in in in hopes of getting kind of a national
focus on the standardization of some kind, right, since hotels are in every state and
kind of a baseline requirement for all of them to have it.
And what's what I discovered when I started out was that most of the requirements existed
only for new facilities.
There weren't requirements for existing buildings.
Okay, those are the hardest to get in place.
Sure.
And then buildings that are already in place when codes were finalized may not apply.
Right, right.
And then and of course, those are the buildings that are most in need of detection because
they have the older appliances, outdated construction.
So that was very surprising.
And it was able to enter a code proposal into NFPA 101 to get a requirement for existing
hotels in that code.
They only had requirements for new buildings.
So that went into effect in 2021, however, those national codes only become effective
if states adopt them.
Exactly, which not everyone does.
We're having that exact same issue with our refrigerant transition with A2L mildly flammable
refrigerants right now.
So that's another misperception in our industry is that the entire country follows a particular
building code.
And that is not the truth.
It varies.
It varies widely.
Right.
And you know, they'll sometimes adopt the code, but only you can cherry pick from what's
in it, not the whole chapter itself.
And then there are states who, you know, the counties and local municipalities are allowed
to develop their own requirements.
Right.
And they can accept it or they cannot or they can improve upon that.
So there's really no guarantee and unfortunately, no way to tell if you travel whether you're
staying in a facility that's safe or whether they have requirements that are reliable.
Absolutely.
So yeah.
We met through our mutual friend, Bob Dwyer, who is one of the largest advocates of carbon
monoxide detection and CO measuring.
And what we find is that as we are building tighter structures and as we are moving towards
the future, we're not always looking at the requirements of monitoring and measuring.
If we look in the residential application, we see a lot of new development in IAQ or
indoor air quality measuring, monitoring things like carbon monoxide, CO2, volatile organic
compounds, particulates that are in the air.
But we don't see anything on the commercial side.
And you even mentioned that there was a fireplace inside of the hotel room.
I can't imagine not having a requirement for carbon monoxide detection for a fireplace.
So what are you finding?
Are you finding acceptance in the industry?
Are you finding resistance to changing some of these norms and stereotypes that we've
had for many years?
Well, it's been a challenge.
And certainly the kind of the stereotypes that go along with carbon monoxide, the general
kind of perception out there is that there's a lot of victim blame around carbon monoxide,
that people should know better, that if you're in your home, you should know not to bring
a generator in or you should have carbon monoxide alarms.
Well, when you, you know, which that shouldn't be, that's obviously a failure of our safety
system if people are dying of this and their homes are being injured.
But when you transition that thinking to a commercial facility, that really doesn't apply.
It's not reasonable to expect an occupant of a commercial building to know what CO hazards
exist within that building or to know if there are detection devices in place.
You know, in addition to that, you know, we're really, especially in a hotel situation, anywhere
really, we're kind of lulled into thinking that there are safety features in place.
You know, we see exit signs, we see labeling on elevators, don't use the elevator in, you
know, in a fire, there's evacuation maps posted.
There's really nothing that addresses CO safety.
Even when first responders respond to an incident involving an injury, there's nothing that
they can go to that shows that, oh, there's a gas-fired appliance down on the lower level
and these injured people are right above it.
You know, there's not that type of thinking in place currently for carbon monoxide safety
in these buildings.
So that, I guess, is part of the missing piece of what's out there.
I'm not sure if that answered your question.
Oh, yeah, no, absolutely.
You know, one of the opportunities I've had recently is to speak to a company that is
focusing on monitoring air quality.
They're right now focusing on schools, so they have started pilot projects in Denver
where they monitor individual rooms for air qualities and have it as public access for
the parents.
So they can actually, on the website, through the portal, they can look at air quality.
And we're talking CO, CO2, we're talking volatile organic compounds and the different particulate
sizes of matter in the air.
And I think if we start looking at it from that mentality, it would be an assurance of
the quality of a space we're going into.
We've measured with our own friends of the industry excessively high levels of COs and
CO2s in public spaces that we would have assumed should have been a secure place for us to
be.
So the goal, I would say, would be for adoption and promotion of things like that.
I mean, even thinking about a hotel, you know, we have so much digital technology to show
us prices and availability of hotel rooms.
If I could look at an app that showed me the price of the rooms but could also show me
the air quality of that particular room, I would pay a lot of attention to the air quality
of that environment.
So I think I see an opportunity for technology to help push this front forward because the
conversation really struck me as an HVAC refrigeration technician because I hadn't thought of it
myself.
I think about how many times that I travel and don't feel well, how many times you stay
in a hotel and wake up with a headache and go, it must just be the mattress, it must
just be the pillow.
Right, right.
And have no way of actually knowing ourselves.
Yes.
And there's a lot of information out there about the symptoms of CO and being aware of
those.
But the reality is the symptoms of carbon monoxide mimic so many other things.
People seldom realize that what they're experiencing is a result of exposure to carbon monoxide.
Sometimes people think they have food poisoning, they ate something bad, coming down with a
migraine, coming down with the flu, COVID.
People don't generally tend to think, oh, I have a headache, I must be being exposed
to carbon monoxide.
Yeah.
Don't really lean towards the appliances that are in our space that we assume are safe and
monitored.
Right, right.
And there's, that's a good point that you bring up about being aware of the air quality.
It would also be nice if there was transparency in the system, particularly with hotels that
would disclose to people whether they had CO detection on the site.
Yeah, any kind of detection.
Right.
And that doesn't currently happen.
In contrast to that, for instance, in the vacation rental industry, Airbnb promotes
that.
The hosts have to disclose that on their...
On their connecting site.
Right.
Yeah.
And they have to host, have them, Airbnb, I believe, also has a policy where they'll
provide free CO alarms to host if they want them.
So that's entirely different than when you're talking about the commercial...
The commercial sector.
Right.
Where you don't have the ability to make a choice based on the safety amenities that
are in the facility.
I am absolutely excited about what you're doing.
This brings the consumer perspective to our industry and really pushes for a lot of validation
of systems that should be in place and accountability.
And I really, I look forward to seeing how that progresses.
For our listeners, are there things that they can do to help promote this effort and help
to bring more awareness to the lack of monitoring that we have in many of our commercial buildings?
Absolutely, and I should point out too that this really is an issue for any commercial
facility.
Sure.
There have been deaths in restaurants.
There were deaths in New Jersey in a recording studio.
This can happen anywhere.
Deaths of employees that go into these boiler rooms and walk into this huge level of carbon
monoxide.
So those are all really important things to be aware of as issues, either as an occupant
of that building or as an HVAC technician walking in to work on an appliance.
Definitely encourage, if you don't already carry detection with you, that that's an important
thing to have for your own safety.
It's also good information to communicate to the facility as well because there aren't
standards or requirements in place for employees of commercial buildings to be trained or even
know about carbon monoxide, even if they have fuel fired appliances on site.
So yes, the awareness of that, the simple discussions, I would say any discussion that
you have with anyone promoting knowing about the dangers of unmonitored gas fired appliances,
you can literally save someone's life with that information by communicating that there
are carbon monoxide alarms out there.
This is important to monitor this device because you won't know that carbon monoxide is present
otherwise without this alarm or detection device to alert you.
So discussions go a long ways, even just talking to people about that.
And then of course, as a consumer, to be aware of that for yourself and your family.
Absolutely.
We always carry a carbon monoxide alarm with us when we travel now.
I would never stay in a hotel without it.
There's more than just the story of what happened to my family.
After it happened, we did a lot of researching.
There's a lack of data surrounding these incidents.
And we found that they are happening frequently and more than what we hear about in the news.
No, they may not be even get investigated if there wasn't a suspicion of something.
Exactly.
A lot of them safe to assume that deaths are being ruled as something else.
You know, my parents were very close to being ruled as natural deaths.
They thought they both had heart attacks.
And so those are all things that, again, we don't normally think about, but are so important
to be aware of and to keep ourselves and our families safe.
Chris, thank you so much for joining us today.
And for those that are looking for education for your classrooms or even for yourself,
we encourage you to go to our escogroup.org and take a look at the training materials.
We have carbon monoxide safety in books and e-sources.
So educate yourself, become more aware, and help change the misperceptions we have of
carbon monoxide detection.
Thank you.
So thank you so much for joining us today.