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Soften your senses.

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Ways to become a better speaker, listener, and follower.

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Carbon monoxide poisoning is a very real danger.

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Learn more at thejeakinsfoundation.com.

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All right.

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Thanks everyone for joining us.

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We're spending some time with Chris Halshilt to discuss a big misperception in our industry,

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to try to relearn something that should be around us every day and is typically not.

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So Chris, thank you so much for joining us today.

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You have an amazing story.

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Let's talk about your life, how this has impacted you, and the efforts that you are pushing

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forward in our industry to bring awareness to this scenario.

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Sure.

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And thank you for having me.

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My name is Chris Halshilt.

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I am with the Jenkins Foundation, which is a carbon monoxide awareness and advocacy nonprofit

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based in Washington state.

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We do a lot of national focus as well.

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But I got into this because my parents both died of carbon monoxide poisoning in a hotel

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room when they were on vacation in Boone, North Carolina about 10 years ago.

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So the foundation is named for them, Daryl and Shirley Jenkins.

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And that's how I became involved in this topic and have been working on it since that time.

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OK.

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So you didn't start in HVAC.

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You were brought into the HVAC industry.

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Right, right.

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Which brings a very wonderful perspective that many of us don't always have.

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So many times as technicians, we do the same things over and over, like life in general.

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We do the same things over and over.

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And sometimes we don't step back and have a different perspective.

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So I always enjoy having a what I would say a third party, an outside perspective of how

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things are going within our own industry and even as a reflection of our own practices.

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Such a tragic story, but an opportunity to teach and educate.

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And that's exactly what you're doing.

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And we're so so grateful for this.

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So what proceeded after that?

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What changed your perception of the HVAC industry?

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Well, what we came to learn after my parents died and and actually, I should say that their

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deaths weren't identified as being CO related until there was a third death in the same

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hotel room.

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Oh, really?

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Several weeks later, an 11 year old boy, he and his mom had both been placed into that

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same room and the CO leak had not been identified.

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The investigators were waiting for results of the toxicology testing on my parents blood

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and the hotel put someone else into the room.

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And so the boy lost his life.

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His mom was permanently injured as a result of the CO leak that was still going on into

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the room.

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And it was only after that incident that it was investigated properly.

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And we became aware of all of the circumstances that led to that happening, which was really

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a series of events involving the natural gas fired pool heater that was located directly

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below the room that was attached to not only that had problems itself, but was attached

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to an exhaust system that was corroded inoperable exhaust fan on the outside of the building.

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So a lot of different pieces that came together to result in very high levels of CO being

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discharged into the hotel and specifically that room that coupled with the fact that

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the hotel was not required to have installed CO detection.

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So nobody knew what was going on.

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Sure.

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Nobody could appreciate why two people would be dead at the same time in the same room

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that that was very eye opening to us that not only it was allowed to happen at that

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facility, but we came to appreciate a larger picture of the fact that the state didn't

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have requirements for hotels to have installed CO detection.

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And really that was not unusual across the US.

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A few states at that time had requirements in place.

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And still there are a lack of requirements for hotels to have installed CO detection,

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even if they have gas fired appliances installed.

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And at that hotel, they had not only the gas fired pool heater, they had gas dryers, gas

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water heaters, gas fireplaces in the guest rooms.

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So just really amazing variety of gas appliances, right?

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And no protection for the air in the building or the occupants.

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So that was kind of where we started as far as our awareness of the fact that the safety

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industry was not up to par.

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Yeah, not what we thought it was.

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Exactly.

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I'm curious about the heater for the pool, because those are typically items that are

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getting regular maintenance.

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Was it an old heater that just hadn't been maintained in years?

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What was the conclusion of that scenario?

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So the pool heater had been replaced at least a couple of times.

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And this particular pool heater had been installed used.

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The hotel owned several other hotels.

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The pool heater that had been there was broken in some way.

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And they moved this pool heater from another hotel.

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The hotel maintenance workers moved it and installed it.

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Of course, not licensed to do it.

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Oh, sure.

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It had after that been converted about a year before my parents died, had been converted

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against manufacturers instructions from propane to natural gas.

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And then further, it had had issues and the person that had been quote unquote servicing

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it was not commercially licensed.

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So there were a number of things that in terms of that appliance that were problems.

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There was also evidence they had been attempting to change out the gas valve.

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And in addition to that, the problems with the exhaust system, the exhaust system, they

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had pool chemicals stored in the utility room.

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In the same facility, highly corrosive.

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Right, highly corrosive.

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So this vent system went across the ceiling of the pool room, hidden behind the ceiling

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tiles so nobody could really see it.

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Although it was staining on the ceiling tiles.

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Oh, no kidding.

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And the obvious evidence that the hotel maintenance people had been up there at different points,

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you know, had ice hotel ice buckets actually under the ductwork catching the condensate

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that was leaking out of the holes in the ductwork.

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A VHS tape stuck underneath the part of it to support the places where it was crumbling

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or the supports were gone.

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And then the inoperable exhaust fan on the outside, which wasn't even wired into the

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pool heater itself.

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So the, you know, carbon monoxide was was coming from a lot of different places and

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then accumulating in that ceiling space over time.

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Right.

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And when they did the testing afterwards, found that it was gaining entry into the room

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through an unsealed opening in the firewall where the piping for the gas fireplace went

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through.

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And then the other entry point was from the I believe they're called the P-TAC units.

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So there was an unsealed area around that unit and the exhaust fan vent for the pool

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heater was right below where that intake was.

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So whatever was managing to make its way out to the outside was actually being drawn back

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internally around that unit below the window.

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So those were the two entry points.

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And then that coupled with an always on fan in the bathroom.

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Constantly circulating, drawing negative pressure on the interior.

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Right.

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The negative pressure was a factor.

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So yes.

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Wow.

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And these are things we don't always talk about in our industry.

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You know, many times, you know, we get education on proper installation and commissioning.

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We hope that there are standards set in place that are accepted locally, nationally.

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But we know that there are scenarios in our industry.

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So let's talk a little bit about the detection because as a consumer, I would assume that

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any time that I'm placing my livelihood in the sleeping quarters of another facility,

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a commercial facility, there should be some basic monitoring of air quality within that

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facility.

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What has been the what's been the results of that?

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I know you've done a lot of studying on this particular topic.

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I have.

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The immediately after these two incidents happened, the state of North Carolina developed

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legislation requiring CO detection in hotels.

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But similar to the limited other states that actually require it through legislation, it's

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only required in certain places of the building.

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So it's seldom that you will find a hotel that has CO alarms in every guest room.

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They're usually centered around a fuel fired device in a facility.

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So the what limited requirements are in place are limited within the building itself.

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Further, there's a lot of states that follow, for instance, the International Fire Code

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or NFPA codes.

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And so I've gotten involved in those codes in in in hopes of getting kind of a national

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focus on the standardization of some kind, right, since hotels are in every state and

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kind of a baseline requirement for all of them to have it.

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And what's what I discovered when I started out was that most of the requirements existed

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only for new facilities.

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There weren't requirements for existing buildings.

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Okay, those are the hardest to get in place.

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Sure.

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And then buildings that are already in place when codes were finalized may not apply.

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Right, right.

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And then and of course, those are the buildings that are most in need of detection because

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they have the older appliances, outdated construction.

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So that was very surprising.

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And it was able to enter a code proposal into NFPA 101 to get a requirement for existing

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hotels in that code.

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They only had requirements for new buildings.

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So that went into effect in 2021, however, those national codes only become effective

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if states adopt them.

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Exactly, which not everyone does.

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We're having that exact same issue with our refrigerant transition with A2L mildly flammable

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refrigerants right now.

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So that's another misperception in our industry is that the entire country follows a particular

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building code.

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And that is not the truth.

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It varies.

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It varies widely.

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Right.

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And you know, they'll sometimes adopt the code, but only you can cherry pick from what's

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in it, not the whole chapter itself.

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And then there are states who, you know, the counties and local municipalities are allowed

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to develop their own requirements.

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Right.

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And they can accept it or they cannot or they can improve upon that.

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So there's really no guarantee and unfortunately, no way to tell if you travel whether you're

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staying in a facility that's safe or whether they have requirements that are reliable.

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Absolutely.

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So yeah.

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We met through our mutual friend, Bob Dwyer, who is one of the largest advocates of carbon

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monoxide detection and CO measuring.

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And what we find is that as we are building tighter structures and as we are moving towards

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the future, we're not always looking at the requirements of monitoring and measuring.

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If we look in the residential application, we see a lot of new development in IAQ or

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indoor air quality measuring, monitoring things like carbon monoxide, CO2, volatile organic

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compounds, particulates that are in the air.

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But we don't see anything on the commercial side.

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And you even mentioned that there was a fireplace inside of the hotel room.

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I can't imagine not having a requirement for carbon monoxide detection for a fireplace.

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So what are you finding?

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Are you finding acceptance in the industry?

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Are you finding resistance to changing some of these norms and stereotypes that we've

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had for many years?

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Well, it's been a challenge.

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And certainly the kind of the stereotypes that go along with carbon monoxide, the general

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kind of perception out there is that there's a lot of victim blame around carbon monoxide,

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that people should know better, that if you're in your home, you should know not to bring

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a generator in or you should have carbon monoxide alarms.

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Well, when you, you know, which that shouldn't be, that's obviously a failure of our safety

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system if people are dying of this and their homes are being injured.

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But when you transition that thinking to a commercial facility, that really doesn't apply.

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It's not reasonable to expect an occupant of a commercial building to know what CO hazards

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exist within that building or to know if there are detection devices in place.

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You know, in addition to that, you know, we're really, especially in a hotel situation, anywhere

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really, we're kind of lulled into thinking that there are safety features in place.

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You know, we see exit signs, we see labeling on elevators, don't use the elevator in, you

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know, in a fire, there's evacuation maps posted.

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There's really nothing that addresses CO safety.

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Even when first responders respond to an incident involving an injury, there's nothing that

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they can go to that shows that, oh, there's a gas-fired appliance down on the lower level

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and these injured people are right above it.

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You know, there's not that type of thinking in place currently for carbon monoxide safety

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in these buildings.

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So that, I guess, is part of the missing piece of what's out there.

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I'm not sure if that answered your question.

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Oh, yeah, no, absolutely.

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You know, one of the opportunities I've had recently is to speak to a company that is

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focusing on monitoring air quality.

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They're right now focusing on schools, so they have started pilot projects in Denver

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where they monitor individual rooms for air qualities and have it as public access for

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the parents.

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So they can actually, on the website, through the portal, they can look at air quality.

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And we're talking CO, CO2, we're talking volatile organic compounds and the different particulate

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sizes of matter in the air.

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And I think if we start looking at it from that mentality, it would be an assurance of

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the quality of a space we're going into.

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We've measured with our own friends of the industry excessively high levels of COs and

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CO2s in public spaces that we would have assumed should have been a secure place for us to

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be.

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So the goal, I would say, would be for adoption and promotion of things like that.

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I mean, even thinking about a hotel, you know, we have so much digital technology to show

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us prices and availability of hotel rooms.

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If I could look at an app that showed me the price of the rooms but could also show me

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the air quality of that particular room, I would pay a lot of attention to the air quality

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of that environment.

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So I think I see an opportunity for technology to help push this front forward because the

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conversation really struck me as an HVAC refrigeration technician because I hadn't thought of it

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myself.

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I think about how many times that I travel and don't feel well, how many times you stay

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in a hotel and wake up with a headache and go, it must just be the mattress, it must

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just be the pillow.

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Right, right.

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And have no way of actually knowing ourselves.

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Yes.

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And there's a lot of information out there about the symptoms of CO and being aware of

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those.

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But the reality is the symptoms of carbon monoxide mimic so many other things.

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People seldom realize that what they're experiencing is a result of exposure to carbon monoxide.

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Sometimes people think they have food poisoning, they ate something bad, coming down with a

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migraine, coming down with the flu, COVID.

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People don't generally tend to think, oh, I have a headache, I must be being exposed

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to carbon monoxide.

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Yeah.

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Don't really lean towards the appliances that are in our space that we assume are safe and

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monitored.

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Right, right.

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And there's, that's a good point that you bring up about being aware of the air quality.

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It would also be nice if there was transparency in the system, particularly with hotels that

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would disclose to people whether they had CO detection on the site.

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Yeah, any kind of detection.

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Right.

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And that doesn't currently happen.

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In contrast to that, for instance, in the vacation rental industry, Airbnb promotes

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that.

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The hosts have to disclose that on their...

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On their connecting site.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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And they have to host, have them, Airbnb, I believe, also has a policy where they'll

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provide free CO alarms to host if they want them.

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So that's entirely different than when you're talking about the commercial...

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The commercial sector.

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Right.

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Where you don't have the ability to make a choice based on the safety amenities that

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are in the facility.

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I am absolutely excited about what you're doing.

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This brings the consumer perspective to our industry and really pushes for a lot of validation

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of systems that should be in place and accountability.

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And I really, I look forward to seeing how that progresses.

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For our listeners, are there things that they can do to help promote this effort and help

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to bring more awareness to the lack of monitoring that we have in many of our commercial buildings?

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Absolutely, and I should point out too that this really is an issue for any commercial

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facility.

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Sure.

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There have been deaths in restaurants.

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There were deaths in New Jersey in a recording studio.

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This can happen anywhere.

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Deaths of employees that go into these boiler rooms and walk into this huge level of carbon

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monoxide.

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So those are all really important things to be aware of as issues, either as an occupant

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of that building or as an HVAC technician walking in to work on an appliance.

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Definitely encourage, if you don't already carry detection with you, that that's an important

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thing to have for your own safety.

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It's also good information to communicate to the facility as well because there aren't

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standards or requirements in place for employees of commercial buildings to be trained or even

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know about carbon monoxide, even if they have fuel fired appliances on site.

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So yes, the awareness of that, the simple discussions, I would say any discussion that

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you have with anyone promoting knowing about the dangers of unmonitored gas fired appliances,

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you can literally save someone's life with that information by communicating that there

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are carbon monoxide alarms out there.

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This is important to monitor this device because you won't know that carbon monoxide is present

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otherwise without this alarm or detection device to alert you.

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So discussions go a long ways, even just talking to people about that.

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And then of course, as a consumer, to be aware of that for yourself and your family.

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Absolutely.

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We always carry a carbon monoxide alarm with us when we travel now.

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I would never stay in a hotel without it.

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There's more than just the story of what happened to my family.

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After it happened, we did a lot of researching.

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There's a lack of data surrounding these incidents.

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And we found that they are happening frequently and more than what we hear about in the news.

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No, they may not be even get investigated if there wasn't a suspicion of something.

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Exactly.

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A lot of them safe to assume that deaths are being ruled as something else.

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You know, my parents were very close to being ruled as natural deaths.

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They thought they both had heart attacks.

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And so those are all things that, again, we don't normally think about, but are so important

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to be aware of and to keep ourselves and our families safe.

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Chris, thank you so much for joining us today.

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And for those that are looking for education for your classrooms or even for yourself,

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we encourage you to go to our escogroup.org and take a look at the training materials.

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We have carbon monoxide safety in books and e-sources.

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So educate yourself, become more aware, and help change the misperceptions we have of

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carbon monoxide detection.

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Thank you.

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So thank you so much for joining us today.