1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:10,000 Welcome back to Teaching the Unteachables, where we dive into methods for teaching and learning for professionals like you. 2 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:20,000 This episode recorded live at the National HVACR Education Conference. Check out richieengineering at yellowjacket.com. 3 00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:32,000 Alright, thank you all for joining us at the 2023 National HVACR Education Conference. We are hanging out with Greg Gusey from Yellowjacket. 4 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:39,000 Thanks for having me, Cliff. How are you, my friend? Very good. So today I actually wanted to touch base a little bit. 5 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:48,000 The topic of my presentation for this show is not your father's hammer, which, you know, we're not doing construction, right? So it's kind of confusing. 6 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:59,000 Why would we talk about a hammer? Sure. As a reference? So in history, you know, we have a lot of different traditions, right, that we hand down from different families and all that kind of stuff. 7 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:07,000 And, you know, in the construction industry, it was a hammer. You hand down that hammer to the next generation. They can build their future, right? 8 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:13,000 And construction typically was very much based on that. You had to have the hammer. 9 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:21,000 Now, as you know, the construction industry, there is now a hammer for finishing nails. There's a hammer for doing studs. There's a hammer for doing cement blocks. 10 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:28,000 So the hammer isn't just a universal hammer anymore like it used to be. A little bit more specialized. Very much so specialized. 11 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:42,000 And that's what we're getting into in the HVAC industry as well, right? Absolutely. So in our industry, you know, we started out with, you know, as far as refrigerants going back in the recent history, it was, you know, R12 and R22, right? 12 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:54,000 R22 was developed as a refrigerant way back in 1930, and it had basically a 90-year run. That, for a refrigerant nowadays, is a horribly, terribly long run. 13 00:01:54,000 --> 00:02:02,000 That's a long time. So, you know, your Greek grandfather to grandfather passed down their gauge set. They could do that. 14 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:16,000 Nowadays, you can't do that anymore because things are changing so fast in our industry. In 2010, basically, that R22 was basically phased out, and it's getting to be more and more impossible to find. 15 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:23,000 And they figure basically by 2030, we won't have it in the US at all. Supply lines will be gone. Yeah, I completely understand that. 16 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:33,000 So since that time, though, a lot, you know, since the 1930s, a lot has changed with that gauge set. You know, it's still telling your pressures based on the temperatures and everything. 17 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:41,000 Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's based on different refrigerants. We now have typically on our gauges, two to three refrigerants, so it's not just a dedicated refrigerant. 18 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:46,000 So you have multiple to look at. Exactly. So you can see many different things. 19 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:55,000 So overall, you know, since basically 2010, what's really been the big change? Well, 410A came on the scene and a lot of industrial applications. 20 00:02:55,000 --> 00:03:03,000 And it was really created back in 1991, but the market acceptance was still for R22. Yeah, a lot of people didn't realize that. 21 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:17,000 So I mean, it's got a huge rich history, but it was one of those that the big change that came with the 410A was the pressures were 50 to 60 percent higher. Pretty significant. Yeah. 22 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:28,000 So, you know, where gauges, hoses. Exactly. But then also your systems, the way the systems were set up, they were, you know, they wouldn't leak very easy on R22. 23 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:38,000 It had some lower pressure. It was low pressure. So you didn't have that chance for it to leak. So with 410A, it meant that we were now dealing with new gauge sets. 24 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:47,000 We had higher pressure readings. You know, we had to do better things to prevent the refrigerant from leaking out of the higher pressure systems. Yes, exactly. Right. 25 00:03:47,000 --> 00:04:02,000 So now coming into 2023, everyone's throwing around acronyms. We got GWP, which is out of the title 40 code for federal regulations. And it's a hot topic. And 410A, they're saying is potentially on its way out. 26 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:15,000 Oh buddy, EPA's got a proposal out there for, you know, residential air conditioning heat pumps as early as January of 25. And we're seeing even territorial. Oh, California is all over it. California is jumping on this, you know, ahead of time. 27 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:27,000 So, you know, I decided to try to help in general the people understand the why, the how, the details of the history and what we should look at, where we have been and where we're going from here. 28 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:47,000 So to start out, you know, the R12 was the predecessor to 22 and 22 had a GWP. That's that global warming potential acronym that people are throwing around. That was at 10,000. I mean, that's 10,000 GWP, right? So that's a good baseline to start from. 29 00:04:47,000 --> 00:05:06,000 So switching over from the R12, I should say had that R22, it brought it down tenfold. It was down to 1,700 GWP. So it's like, wow, that's a huge improvement, right? So we come out with 410A. Now that took us all the way down to 2,300. 30 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:15,000 A lot of people don't understand that. Wait a minute. That was an increase. I thought this was like the long term, like, you know, replacement, refrigerant, earth friendly. 31 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:32,000 Yeah. So then, okay, wait, why did we do that? Because that's a big change, right? So the GWP actually went up. But what we were looking at was another acronym that we're now throwing around, and that's the ODP, which is the ozone depleting potential, right? 32 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:33,000 Exactly. 33 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:46,000 So, you know, yes, the GWP went up, but there was, you know, that other potential hazard that we were dealing with. And that was the primary focus at the time. We were focused on ODP, the removal of the chlorine that was in the refrigerant. 34 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:55,000 So, you know, getting that chlorine out of the refrigerant helped reduce that ODP down to zero, which left us with our HFCs. 35 00:05:55,000 --> 00:06:09,000 Right, right. So we had the HCFCs and the CFCs and the halons basically were causing this, so we got rid of that stuff, right? So that's where, okay, now we have another factor, right? So what was R12? 36 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:28,000 R12 had an ODP of 0.82. R22 came down to 0.034, and R410 was zero. So that's why we changed way back to go to 410, right? So that was fantastic. That should have been the end of the story, right? We cleaned up our act ozone depletion. 37 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:31,000 Hey, ozone's going to restore itself. 38 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:45,000 So, now wait, not that fast, right? I wouldn't be up here today talking about this if that was the case, right? So yeah, we're still seeing changes. So, you know, with the 410A, we saw a whole plethora of new tools. 39 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:51,000 Because of the higher pressures, we had to have better flares. So that meant new flaring tools. New tools. 40 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:58,000 Even the smallest leaks we needed to be able to find. So soldering a lot has gone away in comparison to what we used to do. 41 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:05,000 A lot of people don't realize, we used to use a lot of soft soldering in R22. I saw tons of it when I was out in the field in the residential sector. 42 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:15,000 Absolutely. And so now, well, how do you find leaks? So we have leak detectors, right? And we have dyes that we put in to go and find them and be able to see them. 43 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:28,000 So it's a completely different method where, you know, R22, you basically pressurize the system and you found where it was leaking because it was spraying out and you plugged the leak some way, shape or form, you know? 44 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:40,000 So a lot of our tools have changed. So you're going, okay, well then what is that tool that we can pass down, right? So the manifold isn't the same manifold now. 45 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:46,000 The flaring tools aren't the same flaring tools. You know, we had a good 90 year run on product. 46 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:52,000 On, you know, the same manufactured products. Yeah, that you could keep reusing throughout the industry. 47 00:07:52,000 --> 00:08:00,000 So, you know, one of the things, you know, as I'm going through everything, I'll circle back to that a little bit on which tool is the better one. 48 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:11,000 But why are we still talking about new refrigerants? So the 454B and the R32 are two of the top. 49 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:15,000 Two primary candidates. From what we're seeing in the industry as new refrigerants. 50 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:22,000 But we're also seeing things where people are looking at switching even to 290 and 744. Yeah, LoverHC's. Yeah. 51 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:32,000 So, so overall, what's that mean? That means more new tools, which trust me, being from my background with the Ritchie Tools side of the business, 52 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:41,000 we love it because that means more tools that we get to sell. But at the same time, my R&D department's not nearly big enough from the standpoint of we got to design all these new tools. 53 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:45,000 Imagine how much effort has to go into. Oh, my gosh, we just redesigned. 54 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:53,000 So, you know, I hate to tell you that, you know, that all that time you invested in developing this is a great product, but now we've got to tweak it a little bit. Right. 55 00:08:53,000 --> 00:09:00,000 Exactly. So we're making changes all the time, right? So we're updating it. We're making everything better as we keep going. 56 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:07,000 So now our gauge sets are running higher pressures. The systems are running on overall less volume. Yeah, true. 57 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:15,000 So you get into the 744 and you're talking minuscule amount of refrigerant, even the 290s. 58 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:19,000 You know, a lot of these systems, they're running next to nothing. Yeah. 59 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:28,000 So one of the one of the calls that I get from our industry is, OK, so how do I put dye into an A3 system? 60 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:41,000 A system that already doesn't have much capacity. And I go, wait a minute, do you realize your system is a super small system? And if you're adding dye into that, it messes with that system capacity because you have dye in there. 61 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:44,000 Now we're compressing as we're going along with that small amount of refrigerant. 62 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:57,000 And we have a fantastic set of tools that is offered in our industry, not just by Ritchie, but by a lot of different manufacturers that can smell that smallest amount of propane leaking out of the system, you know. 63 00:09:57,000 --> 00:10:06,000 And we're able to detect those leaks without putting dye in there. So it's one of those like, OK, people, I don't think you need the dye. I think you need the right set of tools. 64 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:12,000 The right tools for the job and the application. And that's really what this all comes down to is the right tools, right? Sure. 65 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:16,000 As we keep going forward, we're going to keep seeing that we have to have better and better tools. 66 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:28,000 One of the things that is scaring me right now with our marketplace is and there have been different talks with different presenters throughout this series that they're telling you, don't worry, everything's safe. 67 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:36,000 But my biggest concern is we have a recovery machine right now that when it goes down to atmosphere, it shuts off. OK, all right. 68 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:43,000 Yeah, we don't sell hardly any of those machines because nobody's looking at the one. That's not the market that we're promoting. Exactly. 69 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:50,000 But my concern is as we get into propane. So my background, I actually went to school for automotive engineering. Oh, nice. 70 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:56,000 So I studied fuels and stoichiometrics and where things go bang. Yeah, absolutely. 71 00:10:56,000 --> 00:11:01,000 And so if you're taking and you're trying to recover a system, what's the reason you're recovering the system? 72 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:05,000 Typically, you have a leak. Some kind of repair. You need to do a repair, right? 73 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:17,000 So if you have a leak and you don't watch your system and you pull into a vacuum of any sort and you're actually pulling air in, right, your tank now becomes basically a bomb. 74 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:25,000 We're mixing fuel and oxygen and creating pressure in there and triangle of heat is ignition. 75 00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:29,000 And you have the pressure, which will then basically cause that explosion. 76 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:36,000 And so all of these manufacturers that are saying, hey, we've got a three capable recovery machines. 77 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:44,000 Do you really do we have some way of making sure that they're not reaching a stoichiometric with a high enough pressure in that tank to stop it from blowing up? 78 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:52,000 I haven't seen it, man. And so that is that's a very interesting topic. 79 00:11:52,000 --> 00:12:00,000 Because I, you know, I myself, I love refrigerants. I came into the refrigeration industry, you know, in that CFC and HCFC phase out. 80 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:06,000 And I love learning about refrigerants and our transitions. I think it's incredibly interesting. 81 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:10,000 I don't think myself had even stopped and think about that for a moment. 82 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:18,000 So my concern is that we're carte blanche saying, oh, it's going to be a safe refrigerant, which in in general terms, environmentally, it's safe for the environment. 83 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:27,000 It's safe from an overall standpoint. You know, if you have a small leak, as long as it goes into a big house, you know, I mean, you're talking it's a small amount of refrigerant. 84 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:32,000 It's not a problem. Right. But we really have to watch what is our recovery processes. 85 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:37,000 Exactly. If we actually go to recovery in the process. Exactly. Exactly. 86 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:43,000 So that's really what I wanted to get out here today and to talk about is how are we going to go forward with this? 87 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:57,000 Because, you know, I've talked with many people here on the floor through the convention and just had that heart to heart conversation with them is we need to make sure that as we're training the next level technicians, you know, it's not us that are going to be doing it. 88 00:12:57,000 --> 00:13:05,000 It's those next levels that need to be able to go and say, hey, wait a minute. Am I doing the right things to make sure I'm staying safe? 89 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:15,000 You know, these refrigerants, I think, hopefully, will be around for a long time. I mean, if you look at it like propane, for instance, right, is a phenomenal refrigerant over all. 90 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:24,000 It's a wonderful refrigerant. R290 is a good refrigerant. It has fantastic heat transfer capabilities. Great heat transfer capabilities, low quantity that you need. 91 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:30,000 The systems can be much more compact and get your heat pulled out of the system way more efficiently. 92 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:35,000 I mean, overall, it's a win. As an industry, we just need to make sure we go down the right path. 93 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:41,000 We're prepared for that tool and procedure. I mean, everything we do comes back to proper procedures, right? 94 00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:49,000 Exactly. Exactly. So that's where, you know, this whole thing I looked at and said, I think we need to make sure that people are aware. 95 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:57,000 I'm not saying, you know, this tool is the right tool, that tool is the right tool. We definitely can't use the manifold that we used yesterday. It's not going to be the case anymore. 96 00:13:57,000 --> 00:14:01,000 As a manufacturer, we're coming out with new manifolds on a continuous basis. 97 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:06,000 We've got the digital manifolds that have all the refrigerants and we update that on a continuous basis. 98 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:12,000 And I mean, it's one of those some refrigerants have dropped off and gone away and some new ones have never made the cut. 99 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:15,000 They're out there for two days and then they're gone. 100 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:18,000 Like, wait a minute, you weren't as good as we actually anticipated you to be. 101 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:23,000 You know, and but it seems like they're making new refrigerants every day on almost a daily basis. 102 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:29,000 So it's one of those we need to make sure that as we go through, we're training our technicians, we're making sure they understand the hazards. 103 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:33,000 It's not something to be afraid of, though, right? I mean, you could be afraid of anything. Exactly. 104 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:40,000 I have people dealing with CO2 over in Europe a lot. The R744. Oh, that's the most popular refrigerator over there. 105 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:45,000 And they're not afraid of it from the standpoint of they use it. Right. 106 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:49,000 But they are afraid of it from the standpoint of what happens if I have a leak? 107 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:55,000 How do I keep it so that my hands don't get cold? Because, I mean, that's where cryogenic freezing comes from. Right. 108 00:14:55,000 --> 00:15:02,000 It's the CO2. And so, yes, it's low quantities, but they are, you know, some of these systems are actually very big. 109 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:07,000 And if you have a leak, you'll you'll do a good job freezing body parts real quick. 110 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:11,000 And so, you know, we look at all those hazards and we try to implement that in our equipment. 111 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:17,000 But, you know, generically speaking, my my biggest concern is make sure that we're educating, 112 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:20,000 Educating on proper procedures and tools and practices. We need to look at that. 113 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:25,000 Is there things as manufacturers that we can put into the tools to make it so you can't? 114 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:33,000 Add additional safety capabilities. That atmospheric switch that we have on that one particular unit that isn't selling because the market's not accepting it. 115 00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:37,000 Sure. And that's fine. But then how are we going to do it? Right. 116 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:43,000 If we're not going to do it that way, are we going to analyze what we're putting in to make sure we don't have a high air content going into that refrigerant tank? 117 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:49,000 You know, I mean, what is it as a market that we're going to do to make sure that we're doing the right thing? 118 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:52,000 Exactly. And that's there's so much of that right now. 119 00:15:52,000 --> 00:16:01,000 You know, the thing that we hear the most as we're out walking around this conference is how do we as an industry move forward responsibly? 120 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:09,000 Right. Our booth, the first day that we had the flyer out, we had our A2L product listed that, you know, what's acceptable for A2L. 121 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:16,000 We ran out of those within the first two hours that we were open. It was crazy. A hundred of them were gone just like that, which is fantastic. 122 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:20,000 Well, yes, that's a lot. It says people are craving the education and that first day of knowledge. 123 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:23,000 People want to understand what's that mean? What does it look like? 124 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:31,000 And we have actually gone to the standpoint from our company standpoint of where we're actually labeling with an A2L on the product now so that people understand that. 125 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:38,000 Yeah, and understand what the capability is because we have, you know, as technicians and we get calls all the time from technicians and educators, contractors. 126 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:42,000 And that's some of the questions we get, you know, what equipment do I need for A2L? 127 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:49,000 I mean, people think about A2Ls and they're coming. No, A2L has been here for a very long time. We had A2Ls back when we had 410. We just didn't realize it. 128 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:58,000 A2Ls were around, have been around in Europe for a long time where they've been using them on a regular basis. And now we're starting to see them here. 129 00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:09,000 So I just had my first conversation last week. So I was up in D.C. at the Johnstone Supply Spring Expo and after I did an A2L class to help prepare them on content for training on A2Ls. 130 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:18,000 And in that discussion after the end, I had one of the one of the Johnstones came up and said, I got a jug of R32 recovered refrigerant. What do I do with it? 131 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:23,000 I said, you got what? He said, yeah, you know, we're pushing R32 ductless systems like crazy up here. 132 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:30,000 He said, I've been in stocking them. He said, I was stocking the R32 ductless systems a year ago before they were even allowed by code in my area. 133 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:36,000 So we've been pushing them hot and heavy. And I've already had my first contractor bring in a jug of refrigerant from a big repair job that they did. 134 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:41,000 I had to stop my tracks and go, that's where we are with A2L refrigerants. 135 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:49,000 It's happening. Yeah, it's not a, oh, well, that will happen in the future. We need to prepare for it. We need to prepare our technicians now. 136 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:58,000 They need to understand what's that look like? What's that mean? And, you know, generically, I talked to a lot of the educators here as well through this conference. 137 00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:05,000 And I let them know that, you know, the A2 is the least scary one for me, from my standpoint, looking at it with the pressurized tank and all that stuff. 138 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:12,000 It takes a lot of air. Like you'd really have to not be paying attention to these A2L systems to make that tank explosive. 139 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:20,000 Yeah, absolutely. Because it is such a low fire and the flammability and everything that the fire risk is so low. 140 00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:24,000 When you get into those A3s, that's not the case. That's a different animal. 141 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:32,000 So, you know, as we move forward, if we tackle the A2Ls and we say, OK, how do we make this equipment the right equipment for that? 142 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:39,000 I think that, again, is one set where you're going to have those manifolds. You're going to have that equipment that's going to match for that. 143 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:51,000 And then as we start moving more into the A3s, which I think the industry is going to go that way just because of the ODP and the GWP and whatever the next acronym is that we haven't come up with yet. 144 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:57,000 TFA, Trifluoroacetic Acid. That's my vote for after GWP. I ain't going to go there right now. 145 00:18:57,000 --> 00:19:05,000 But whatever the next one is, because it's coming, whatever it is, and we have to look at what does that mean for our next set of tools. 146 00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:11,000 You know, so, you know, overall, we've we've we've come from the R12. 147 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:14,000 Phenomenal low, low, low pressure. 148 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:20,000 You know, we bled it off out of the cars and not everything else and never really thought about it. 149 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:28,000 And everybody could just refill whatever, you know, their home or their car. 150 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:31,000 You just go buy what you need to grab a tab license. What's a license? 151 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:35,000 Right. And then we went into the R22, which had a really good run. 152 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:42,000 You know, you were able to use that grandfather's gauge and your dad was able to use it and everything else. 153 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:50,000 And now we're into the, hey, that tool isn't going to last that long because that refrigerant is just not going to be around that long. 154 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:53,000 You know, and I don't think we've found the perfect refrigerant yet. 155 00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:57,000 And I don't know that there's going to be a perfect refrigerant. 156 00:19:57,000 --> 00:20:00,000 No, it's not. I think it's going to depend on the application. 157 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:01,000 Absolutely. It's going to be application. 158 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:07,000 And you're going to have a multiple variety yet of refrigerants that we're still going to be ending up going with. 159 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:11,000 And those tools aren't even going to be necessarily cross-functional. 160 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:18,000 We don't even know yet. I mean, look at R410A. There is no snap approved replacement for R410A yet. 161 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:19,000 Right. 162 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:27,000 So all of our new refrigerants, our R32, our R454s, right? All HFC based refrigerants. 163 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:38,000 R32 straight HFC, right? Lower GWP, but still HFC, which means as we continue down that HFC phase down, which is additional 30 percent next year, right? 164 00:20:38,000 --> 00:21:01,000 There's only 15 percent of the HFCs left in 2039. So we look at that and we go, OK, no matter what, by 16 years, even the HFCs are going to be not very popular.