WEBVTT 00:00:06.459 --> 00:00:09.800 Welcome to Did You Know, the ESCO HVAC podcast, 00:00:10.199 --> 00:00:12.359 the show where we explore the cool, the hot, 00:00:12.359 --> 00:00:15.339 and the everything in between of the HVACR industry. 00:00:15.679 --> 00:00:19.199 Each week, we dig into the innovations, the insights, 00:00:19.379 --> 00:00:22.000 and the inspiring stories that power our trade 00:00:22.000 --> 00:00:24.640 from the classroom to the job site and beyond. 00:00:24.800 --> 00:00:27.120 This episode is brought to you by this week's 00:00:27.120 --> 00:00:30.000 amazing sponsors, Daikin Comfort Technology, 00:00:30.440 --> 00:00:34.219 perfecting the air since 1924. Lincoln Tech, 00:00:34.439 --> 00:00:37.979 put your potential to work. NAVAC, professional 00:00:37.979 --> 00:00:42.219 tools and equipment for HVACR technicians. Amatrol 00:00:42.219 --> 00:00:46.219 Trainers, globally impactful, personally empowering. 00:00:46.520 --> 00:00:51.399 As well as AGAS, together we can. Whether you're 00:00:51.399 --> 00:00:53.619 just getting started or you've been turning wrenches 00:00:53.619 --> 00:00:56.380 for decades like myself, there's always something 00:00:56.380 --> 00:00:59.539 new for us to learn. I'm Clifton Beck, and this 00:00:59.539 --> 00:01:04.379 is Did You Know? The ESCO HVAC Podcast. Let's 00:01:04.379 --> 00:01:07.159 dive in. Hello, everyone. Thank you so much for 00:01:07.159 --> 00:01:10.620 joining us on Did You Know? The ESCO HVAC Podcast. 00:01:11.120 --> 00:01:13.700 You know, we spend so much time talking about 00:01:13.700 --> 00:01:16.060 the transitions that we're seeing in technology, 00:01:16.379 --> 00:01:18.560 innovations that are coming to our industry, 00:01:18.659 --> 00:01:22.819 and whether we call it degasification, electrification. 00:01:23.950 --> 00:01:26.150 It really comes down to being better stewards 00:01:26.150 --> 00:01:28.430 of the energy resources that we have available 00:01:28.430 --> 00:01:31.790 to us. Now, we get a lot of questions here at 00:01:31.790 --> 00:01:34.370 ESCO, particularly from our educators as well 00:01:34.370 --> 00:01:37.530 as our contractors, of if we make these transitions, 00:01:37.730 --> 00:01:40.189 if we make these electrification movements that 00:01:40.189 --> 00:01:42.829 we're focusing on in every aspect of the country, 00:01:42.930 --> 00:01:46.329 is it sustainable? Can we make these transitions 00:01:46.329 --> 00:01:48.530 with our current infrastructure? What type of 00:01:48.530 --> 00:01:50.909 maintenance is involved with our current infrastructure? 00:01:51.230 --> 00:01:54.489 And are there... Are there improvements? Is there 00:01:54.489 --> 00:01:56.349 funding? Are there things that are happening 00:01:56.349 --> 00:01:58.209 that are aiding in that? So today we're spending 00:01:58.209 --> 00:02:00.969 some time with Jordan Lerner, Vice President 00:02:00.969 --> 00:02:03.290 of the West Region for Schneider Electric. How 00:02:03.290 --> 00:02:07.409 are you? I'm good. Thank you. I'm grateful that 00:02:07.409 --> 00:02:09.710 you're joining us. Yeah, no, thank you for having 00:02:09.710 --> 00:02:11.629 me. I'm really looking forward to this conversation. 00:02:12.539 --> 00:02:14.379 Yeah, I think it brings another perspective, 00:02:14.460 --> 00:02:16.599 especially to the HVAC and the refrigeration 00:02:16.599 --> 00:02:21.360 side. Besides being in HVACR, I actually went 00:02:21.360 --> 00:02:24.020 back to school later in life, got a master electrician 00:02:24.020 --> 00:02:26.719 license, spent a fair amount of time studying 00:02:26.719 --> 00:02:29.139 just so that I could be dual certified in two 00:02:29.139 --> 00:02:31.120 different trades because they go hand in hand. 00:02:31.870 --> 00:02:34.949 And we don't always bring enough of the electrical 00:02:34.949 --> 00:02:36.830 side, especially from like the utility side, 00:02:37.030 --> 00:02:39.490 from the infrastructure maintenance side. And 00:02:39.490 --> 00:02:42.629 we really should because we're all partners in 00:02:42.629 --> 00:02:46.990 this transition, this global effort for reducing 00:02:46.990 --> 00:02:49.909 energy consumption or at least managing our energy 00:02:49.909 --> 00:02:53.960 resources and consumption. Schneider has always 00:02:53.960 --> 00:02:56.680 been at the forefront of technological transitions 00:02:56.680 --> 00:03:00.800 and understanding energy management. So where 00:03:00.800 --> 00:03:03.800 are we when we start talking about our infrastructure 00:03:03.800 --> 00:03:08.580 and maintenance and looking at forecasting ways 00:03:08.580 --> 00:03:12.259 to improve our electrical infrastructure? Yeah, 00:03:12.300 --> 00:03:15.340 electrical is certainly important in everything 00:03:15.340 --> 00:03:18.080 we do in the efficiency movement. We start with 00:03:18.080 --> 00:03:22.039 looking at lighting and how efficient is that. 00:03:22.360 --> 00:03:24.860 and then move into the HVAC systems, of course. 00:03:25.360 --> 00:03:27.680 Throughout California, for example, there's been 00:03:27.680 --> 00:03:32.120 a big movement to electrify the HVAC equipment 00:03:32.120 --> 00:03:35.719 that has massive impacts on the electrical infrastructure. 00:03:36.780 --> 00:03:39.099 You know, when you design a system that was designed 00:03:39.099 --> 00:03:41.319 for natural gas and you move to electricity, 00:03:41.560 --> 00:03:44.979 often the capacity of of the switch gear, the 00:03:44.979 --> 00:03:47.439 switch boards, even the distribution wiring. 00:03:48.840 --> 00:03:51.340 isn't ready for that. So you have to look at 00:03:51.340 --> 00:03:56.699 the total costs to understand what is the ROI 00:03:56.699 --> 00:03:59.240 for this? Yes, there are some mandates, but you 00:03:59.240 --> 00:04:01.539 also have to understand how do you pay for those 00:04:01.539 --> 00:04:04.379 mandates? Even things like we're doing a lot 00:04:04.379 --> 00:04:06.139 of projects these days with the electrification 00:04:06.139 --> 00:04:09.900 of fleets, and those often require a whole new 00:04:09.900 --> 00:04:12.919 service entrance to facilities to be able to 00:04:12.919 --> 00:04:15.580 handle a pretty significant load when you're 00:04:15.580 --> 00:04:18.629 talking about heavy duty equipment or bus fleets 00:04:18.629 --> 00:04:21.529 or things like that. Yeah. I mean, it's one thing 00:04:21.529 --> 00:04:25.569 to come up with a, you know, a long haul over 00:04:25.569 --> 00:04:29.910 the road rig that can be ran on battery, but 00:04:29.910 --> 00:04:32.829 where does it recharge and how much power does 00:04:32.829 --> 00:04:34.769 it take to recharge that? And then if I have 00:04:34.769 --> 00:04:37.970 a fleet of them, you know, do I need an electrical 00:04:37.970 --> 00:04:41.990 service just for that particular project? Yeah, 00:04:42.050 --> 00:04:44.490 we're working with a school district in the Central 00:04:44.490 --> 00:04:47.410 Valley of California right now. And one of their 00:04:47.410 --> 00:04:50.350 big challenges in electrifying their bus fleet 00:04:50.350 --> 00:04:53.610 was working with their local utility. And in 00:04:53.610 --> 00:04:55.970 this case, it's a small irrigation district, 00:04:56.389 --> 00:04:59.670 you know, a municipal utility for lack of a better 00:04:59.670 --> 00:05:03.430 term. And understanding what the power needs 00:05:03.430 --> 00:05:06.410 are going to be for electrifying a fleet of 20 00:05:06.410 --> 00:05:09.410 buses, it required an entirely new service entrance. 00:05:09.629 --> 00:05:11.759 And one of the values we provide. is being able, 00:05:11.839 --> 00:05:14.279 with our deep knowledge of electrical systems, 00:05:14.339 --> 00:05:16.980 to be able to negotiate with those utilities 00:05:16.980 --> 00:05:21.040 on what and when, because that's really critical 00:05:21.040 --> 00:05:24.899 to electrify these fleets. Yeah, it's one thing 00:05:24.899 --> 00:05:28.379 to come up with a new, you know, worthy project, 00:05:28.420 --> 00:05:31.420 a new mission that is, you know, good for the 00:05:31.420 --> 00:05:34.300 environment, that is good for, you know, for 00:05:34.300 --> 00:05:36.779 the long -term investment, but then we also have 00:05:36.779 --> 00:05:39.779 to think, wait. Is it feasible? Can we do this? 00:05:39.839 --> 00:05:42.339 Can we get the electrical service to that area? 00:05:42.600 --> 00:05:46.180 And California is a prime example of having initiatives 00:05:46.180 --> 00:05:50.300 for looking long -term. We work very closely 00:05:50.300 --> 00:05:52.560 with Pacific Gas and Electric, actually just 00:05:52.560 --> 00:05:54.620 did some heat pump training courses with them. 00:05:55.040 --> 00:05:59.279 They had did an entire series of consumer education 00:05:59.279 --> 00:06:02.500 as well as contractor education around high efficiency 00:06:02.500 --> 00:06:04.220 lighting. You'd mentioned lighting a while ago, 00:06:04.379 --> 00:06:07.079 right? And so they did an entire campaign for 00:06:07.079 --> 00:06:09.610 years. And then they reached out to us and said, 00:06:09.689 --> 00:06:11.949 you know, that campaign was very successful. 00:06:12.129 --> 00:06:14.189 So now we're going to move on to a new one that's 00:06:14.189 --> 00:06:16.269 going to be heat pumps because the state of California 00:06:16.269 --> 00:06:18.709 is they're looking at doing eight million heat 00:06:18.709 --> 00:06:21.449 pumps by 2030. Right. That's the goal. That's 00:06:21.449 --> 00:06:24.370 an that's a lofty goal. And there's a lot of 00:06:24.370 --> 00:06:28.350 training and even. contractor funds available 00:06:28.350 --> 00:06:30.430 through things like TechClean California that 00:06:30.430 --> 00:06:32.750 is providing contractor training on, you know, 00:06:32.750 --> 00:06:34.410 heat pump installations and high performance 00:06:34.410 --> 00:06:37.110 installations. But at the same time, you know, 00:06:37.110 --> 00:06:39.709 if I have an area that is going to have a significant 00:06:39.709 --> 00:06:43.129 growth in heat pump technology that maybe was 00:06:43.129 --> 00:06:46.250 a, like you said, a gas fired heating source 00:06:46.250 --> 00:06:48.689 with an air conditioning, you know, it's primarily 00:06:48.689 --> 00:06:50.790 electrical load was previously in the summer 00:06:50.790 --> 00:06:54.189 and that could be shifting. And a lot of municipalities 00:06:54.189 --> 00:06:56.939 are like, well, what do we do? Or are there, 00:06:56.959 --> 00:06:59.439 are there groups out there? Well, yeah, there 00:06:59.439 --> 00:07:03.899 is. Yeah. Yeah. And when we do these projects, 00:07:04.000 --> 00:07:09.899 we look at time of day, time of use, you know, 00:07:09.899 --> 00:07:13.180 as well as all the other factors involved in 00:07:13.180 --> 00:07:15.339 trying to fund these projects. We've done a lot 00:07:15.339 --> 00:07:18.660 of work with PG &E also on like on bill financing. 00:07:18.879 --> 00:07:21.480 That's been a great way to pay for lighting for, 00:07:21.540 --> 00:07:25.740 you know, most, almost all of my teams. clients 00:07:25.740 --> 00:07:29.680 are our public sector clients Schneider of course 00:07:29.680 --> 00:07:31.759 we work with a lot of private sector clients 00:07:31.759 --> 00:07:35.279 as well but but that on -built financing is a 00:07:35.279 --> 00:07:38.100 terrific tool particularly for public sector 00:07:38.100 --> 00:07:40.720 clients that are better challenged with funding 00:07:40.720 --> 00:07:43.079 so we've done a bunch of projects where you take 00:07:43.079 --> 00:07:45.399 the lighting piece of it and you fund it through 00:07:45.399 --> 00:07:47.800 on -built financing and then you take the mechanical 00:07:47.800 --> 00:07:50.839 and solar and other pieces of these efficiency 00:07:50.839 --> 00:07:53.689 improvements and fund them through other means 00:07:53.689 --> 00:07:56.089 so one of the things we really try to do is bring 00:07:56.089 --> 00:08:00.069 a bunch of different sources of funding to these 00:08:00.069 --> 00:08:02.870 projects we've got a number of projects where 00:08:02.870 --> 00:08:05.850 we're bringing on -bill financing we're bringing 00:08:05.850 --> 00:08:10.629 some maybe some grants for ev through one of 00:08:10.629 --> 00:08:14.009 the the air resources boards there's been a lot 00:08:14.009 --> 00:08:16.029 of money through the san joaquin air resources 00:08:16.029 --> 00:08:20.550 board that has funded a lot of bus and fleet 00:08:20.550 --> 00:08:23.850 transformation throughout uh california and so 00:08:23.850 --> 00:08:26.709 you know and then then you figure out where where 00:08:26.709 --> 00:08:28.529 are there inefficiencies in your operational 00:08:28.529 --> 00:08:31.709 spend you know where can we by changing these 00:08:31.709 --> 00:08:34.669 systems how do we reduce o m costs that we can 00:08:34.669 --> 00:08:36.809 then use to fund these and of course the utility 00:08:36.809 --> 00:08:40.669 savings that are usually central to all of these 00:08:40.669 --> 00:08:43.169 energy efficiency design build projects that 00:08:43.169 --> 00:08:48.370 we do I like the idea of utilizing that for those 00:08:48.370 --> 00:08:51.750 upfront investments for the consumers. Some of 00:08:51.750 --> 00:08:55.080 these projects are... fairly costly. You know, 00:08:55.080 --> 00:08:57.720 if you take things like even solar installations, 00:08:57.799 --> 00:09:00.740 sometimes even the EV charging installations, 00:09:00.879 --> 00:09:03.840 let alone things like, you know, heat pumps, 00:09:03.940 --> 00:09:06.379 you know, for many of our consumers, the upfront 00:09:06.379 --> 00:09:08.639 cost is not feasible, which is one of the reasons 00:09:08.639 --> 00:09:12.059 they don't opt in for those options. But if we 00:09:12.059 --> 00:09:18.929 work with funding, if we look at our energy providers, 00:09:19.110 --> 00:09:21.870 and we find those solutions for the consumers, 00:09:22.009 --> 00:09:24.070 whether they're residential or even commercial 00:09:24.070 --> 00:09:27.250 consumers, and we give them those purchasing 00:09:27.250 --> 00:09:30.169 options, it really opens up that opportunity 00:09:30.169 --> 00:09:33.590 for wider scale adoption of some of these improvements. 00:09:34.570 --> 00:09:37.110 Yeah, for sure. Funding is always the number 00:09:37.110 --> 00:09:39.409 one obstacle. I mean, you know, there's other 00:09:39.409 --> 00:09:42.710 obstacles in these projects, for sure. But funding 00:09:42.710 --> 00:09:44.990 is the number one obstacle. And, you know, we 00:09:44.990 --> 00:09:49.730 went through a time frame when we had federal 00:09:49.730 --> 00:09:52.710 and state funds that offset some of the costs. 00:09:52.830 --> 00:09:55.429 You know, during COVID, for example, there was 00:09:55.429 --> 00:09:58.669 a lot of money through the ESSER funding that 00:09:58.669 --> 00:10:02.440 helped in indoor air quality improvement. fantastic 00:10:02.440 --> 00:10:05.379 program because it made lasting improvements 00:10:05.379 --> 00:10:09.159 to you know particularly to school learning environments 00:10:09.159 --> 00:10:12.980 through you know funding and discounts from the 00:10:12.980 --> 00:10:15.919 federal government california air resources board 00:10:15.919 --> 00:10:19.539 has stood stood up and provided funding of the 00:10:19.539 --> 00:10:22.360 you know for a lot of electric vehicle infrastructure 00:10:22.360 --> 00:10:25.779 there's been programs for other air quality improvements 00:10:25.779 --> 00:10:29.440 and we we just try to bring all of other people's 00:10:29.440 --> 00:10:33.279 money first and then you then use your own money 00:10:33.279 --> 00:10:37.220 yeah no completely makes sense You know, it seems 00:10:37.220 --> 00:10:39.659 like I'm always picking on California just because 00:10:39.659 --> 00:10:41.600 they're, you know, they're very much at the forefront 00:10:41.600 --> 00:10:44.940 of energy efficiency initiatives. They always 00:10:44.940 --> 00:10:47.519 have been. But it's not just California. It's 00:10:47.519 --> 00:10:50.220 the entire country. And we've got places like, 00:10:50.299 --> 00:10:52.519 take for instance, Colorado, right? You would 00:10:52.519 --> 00:10:55.220 not think of a place like Colorado as having 00:10:55.220 --> 00:10:58.080 initiatives for, you know, banning gas connections 00:10:58.080 --> 00:11:00.960 on new installations, wanting entire electrical, 00:11:01.299 --> 00:11:05.600 residential, light and light commercial new construction. 00:11:06.000 --> 00:11:09.039 Or even like New York that is pushing really 00:11:09.039 --> 00:11:11.879 quick on electrification movements in the commercial 00:11:11.879 --> 00:11:14.879 sector. So does Schneider, I assume, work with 00:11:14.879 --> 00:11:18.539 a lot of energy utilities, especially things 00:11:18.539 --> 00:11:21.159 like New York and Colorado, to even look at these 00:11:21.159 --> 00:11:24.600 structures to identify the feasibility of electrification? 00:11:25.120 --> 00:11:29.299 Yeah, for sure. me and my team work in colorado 00:11:29.299 --> 00:11:32.000 and there's been a big transition in the energy 00:11:32.000 --> 00:11:34.840 mix in colorado from years and years and years 00:11:34.840 --> 00:11:39.860 of using you know inexpensive wyoming coal as 00:11:39.860 --> 00:11:43.519 the primary point and natural gas two pushes 00:11:43.519 --> 00:11:46.720 for electrification we're we're in the middle 00:11:46.720 --> 00:11:49.659 of a project building a couple of significant 00:11:49.659 --> 00:11:54.870 sized solar arrays for a state agency in Colorado. 00:11:55.169 --> 00:11:57.409 And we've had to deal with multiple utilities 00:11:57.409 --> 00:12:01.590 on their interconnection requirements and how 00:12:01.590 --> 00:12:06.250 they accept that power on there. Yeah, exactly. 00:12:06.789 --> 00:12:09.470 And and doing all that with with the same time 00:12:09.470 --> 00:12:12.610 of going through these facilities and reducing 00:12:12.610 --> 00:12:14.710 their demand. I mean, it doesn't do any good. 00:12:14.990 --> 00:12:17.730 Well, it doesn't do as much good to go build 00:12:17.730 --> 00:12:21.110 generation when you haven't got your base load. 00:12:21.740 --> 00:12:25.759 minimized right so yeah going in and and doing 00:12:25.759 --> 00:12:28.799 lighting retrofits and hvac retrofits and i know 00:12:28.799 --> 00:12:30.759 you've got a big background in building automation 00:12:30.759 --> 00:12:35.039 in building automation fits to to go you know 00:12:35.039 --> 00:12:37.259 the negawatt is always cheaper than the megawatt 00:12:37.259 --> 00:12:40.620 right that's an old long -term thing and we really 00:12:40.620 --> 00:12:43.419 try to you know what we try to do is we combine 00:12:43.419 --> 00:12:47.440 that energy reduction strategies and then add 00:12:47.440 --> 00:12:50.909 generation on top of that Okay. I have to take 00:12:50.909 --> 00:12:53.029 a minute and write this down because I've not 00:12:53.029 --> 00:12:55.429 heard that before. That's the name of this podcast. 00:12:56.330 --> 00:13:00.549 The negawatt is cheaper than the megawatt because 00:13:00.549 --> 00:13:03.529 it's so true. We have to look at that reduction. 00:13:03.909 --> 00:13:06.909 And when you look at these, are you seeing then 00:13:06.909 --> 00:13:12.009 lighting and HVAC as some of the prime opportunities 00:13:12.009 --> 00:13:15.330 for electrical and energy reduction? Yeah, for 00:13:15.330 --> 00:13:18.129 sure. I mean, lighting is the number one. And 00:13:18.129 --> 00:13:20.809 then, you know, it's not just the mechanical 00:13:20.809 --> 00:13:23.450 systems themselves as you know from your background 00:13:23.450 --> 00:13:25.549 right you bring in a new generation of mechanical 00:13:25.549 --> 00:13:30.269 equipment and it's 15 or 20 percent more efficient 00:13:30.269 --> 00:13:33.450 but it's not 200 percent more efficient like 00:13:33.450 --> 00:13:37.669 like lighting went when we went to leds they 00:13:37.669 --> 00:13:40.830 became hundreds of percents more efficient than 00:13:40.830 --> 00:13:46.429 old you know t12 and lighting we don't have quite 00:13:46.429 --> 00:13:51.309 that level of improvement on mechanical. And 00:13:51.309 --> 00:13:55.409 so we work hard to to create projects that have 00:13:55.409 --> 00:13:58.809 a combination of efficiency measures because, 00:13:58.870 --> 00:14:01.730 you know, mechanical retrofits are deep energy 00:14:01.730 --> 00:14:03.909 retrofits, right? If you go replace a mechanical 00:14:03.909 --> 00:14:07.870 system, it's not going to pay for itself in the 00:14:07.870 --> 00:14:11.250 energy savings. Now, when you combine energy 00:14:11.250 --> 00:14:15.710 operation, capital cost avoidance and these other 00:14:16.250 --> 00:14:18.990 lower hanging fruits of energy conservation, 00:14:19.269 --> 00:14:21.809 and then you add solar on there. The mix of these 00:14:21.809 --> 00:14:24.470 projects is what helps these clients go fund 00:14:24.470 --> 00:14:26.870 these, where you could say, well, you used to 00:14:26.870 --> 00:14:32.570 spend $500 ,000 in the utility and operational 00:14:32.570 --> 00:14:35.429 costs for these systems. Now you're going to 00:14:35.429 --> 00:14:41.250 spend $350 ,000. You can use that $150 ,000 of 00:14:41.250 --> 00:14:44.399 savings to offset the capital costs. absolutely 00:14:44.399 --> 00:14:48.899 of these new systems yeah very intriguing so 00:14:48.899 --> 00:14:51.779 when we see the growth of of solar you know i'm 00:14:51.779 --> 00:14:53.799 here in the midwest i'm just outside of indianapolis 00:14:53.799 --> 00:14:57.159 indiana yeah i'm a big advocate for solar i'm 00:14:57.159 --> 00:14:59.600 actually doing some off -grid installation at 00:14:59.600 --> 00:15:03.669 our farm using solar and using battery storage, 00:15:03.889 --> 00:15:06.409 you know, looking at ways that, you know, as 00:15:06.409 --> 00:15:09.830 an individual, I can benefit from the use of 00:15:09.830 --> 00:15:12.669 them. Are you seeing that as a significant growth 00:15:12.669 --> 00:15:15.529 in the utility grid in the United States? I know 00:15:15.529 --> 00:15:19.250 it's really popular in other countries. I don't 00:15:19.250 --> 00:15:21.269 know, from an outsider, I feel like we're just 00:15:21.269 --> 00:15:24.950 starting to grasp that here in the U .S. Yeah, 00:15:24.990 --> 00:15:28.059 I mean, obviously. our coast in particular you 00:15:28.059 --> 00:15:32.620 know california and the northeast have driven 00:15:32.620 --> 00:15:35.960 a lot of solar investment because their energy 00:15:35.960 --> 00:15:40.620 costs are so high that the paybacks are are are 00:15:40.620 --> 00:15:44.240 there you know without incentives in other parts 00:15:44.240 --> 00:15:46.360 of the country some of their utility costs are 00:15:46.360 --> 00:15:49.799 so low from burning you know inexpensive resources 00:15:49.799 --> 00:15:54.539 that it hasn't made as much financial sense. 00:15:54.720 --> 00:15:57.840 The federal government and some state governments 00:15:57.840 --> 00:16:00.720 have provided grants and funding that help lower 00:16:00.720 --> 00:16:03.919 that cost. But also we've seen radical changes 00:16:03.919 --> 00:16:06.600 in the solar industry with just the cost of equipment 00:16:06.600 --> 00:16:10.419 going down over the last eight to 10 years significantly 00:16:10.419 --> 00:16:13.940 to where projects can make sense in the Midwest. 00:16:14.080 --> 00:16:17.580 We did a... a large solar installation, I don't 00:16:17.580 --> 00:16:20.779 know, maybe six years ago or so in Indiana there, 00:16:20.840 --> 00:16:24.320 actually in La Porte, Indiana. Oh, yeah. And 00:16:24.320 --> 00:16:26.500 so we are seeing more and more of these happen 00:16:26.500 --> 00:16:28.740 in the Midwest because it's not just about economics. 00:16:28.960 --> 00:16:31.600 It's a lot about resiliency. You know, it's a 00:16:31.600 --> 00:16:35.379 lot about knowing I have the power when I need 00:16:35.379 --> 00:16:38.539 the power. So when you take batteries and solar 00:16:38.539 --> 00:16:42.169 and combine them. um with maybe you've got some 00:16:42.169 --> 00:16:45.029 backup generation for emergency loads you can 00:16:45.029 --> 00:16:48.269 really off -grid because we're just seeing power 00:16:48.269 --> 00:16:50.490 outages are happening more and more some of it 00:16:50.490 --> 00:16:53.250 from weather some of it from limitations in the 00:16:53.250 --> 00:16:56.169 in the transmission and distribution systems 00:16:56.169 --> 00:17:00.049 and so we're seeing a lot of a lot of our clients 00:17:00.049 --> 00:17:03.509 moving towards these resiliency offers just because 00:17:03.509 --> 00:17:06.970 one it provides certainty of having the power 00:17:07.549 --> 00:17:10.210 Two, it provides some certainty of the cost of 00:17:10.210 --> 00:17:13.430 that power. You know, we can budget for something 00:17:13.430 --> 00:17:15.650 we know how much it's going to cost. It's hard 00:17:15.650 --> 00:17:18.329 to budget for things that we don't know. And 00:17:18.329 --> 00:17:20.230 a lot of utilities have had pretty significant 00:17:20.230 --> 00:17:22.890 rate increases over the last five years because 00:17:22.890 --> 00:17:24.470 of the demands on the grid. I mean, we're seeing 00:17:24.470 --> 00:17:27.490 data centers take up demands on the grid. We're 00:17:27.490 --> 00:17:31.599 seeing just a lot more, you know. everybody plugs 00:17:31.599 --> 00:17:34.480 everything in now. And so there's just, there's, 00:17:34.480 --> 00:17:37.680 you know, you've got cars at your homes and cars 00:17:37.680 --> 00:17:42.900 at your businesses. So reducing the load and 00:17:42.900 --> 00:17:45.680 finding other ways of generation, you know, and 00:17:45.680 --> 00:17:49.720 solar is a pretty simple, pretty cost -effective 00:17:49.720 --> 00:17:54.400 way to do that generation. Yeah, that resiliency 00:17:54.400 --> 00:17:56.460 that you'd mentioned, that's been the most important. 00:17:56.539 --> 00:17:59.440 I don't know why I'm actually recording here 00:17:59.440 --> 00:18:01.140 from the office today, except that I had like 00:18:01.140 --> 00:18:02.859 two meetings before this. I should have been 00:18:02.859 --> 00:18:05.599 out of my studio. So we just finished building 00:18:05.599 --> 00:18:08.700 a mobile studio, so a full broadcast production 00:18:08.700 --> 00:18:14.299 studio that's got 12 280 watt panels. It's got 00:18:14.299 --> 00:18:18.319 800 amp hour, 100 amp hour lithium batteries. 00:18:18.500 --> 00:18:21.670 It's got, you know, twin inverters. And that 00:18:21.670 --> 00:18:23.430 was the whole point of building resiliency and 00:18:23.430 --> 00:18:25.789 redundancy. And so the mobile studio is completely 00:18:25.789 --> 00:18:27.849 off grid. And that was what we looked at. We 00:18:27.849 --> 00:18:30.269 factored in, well, what would it cost for us 00:18:30.269 --> 00:18:34.230 to rent a production facility? What would utilities 00:18:34.230 --> 00:18:37.930 cost? Do we have any long -term projections on 00:18:37.930 --> 00:18:41.529 utility costs? And where's it going to change? 00:18:42.279 --> 00:18:43.839 Because we've got data centers coming into this 00:18:43.839 --> 00:18:45.980 area that's going to affect our cost of electricity. 00:18:46.400 --> 00:18:48.740 And it's hard to forecast that. And so we looked 00:18:48.740 --> 00:18:50.099 at the option and decided, well, you know what? 00:18:50.140 --> 00:18:51.880 We are. We're going to go solar on this. And 00:18:51.880 --> 00:18:54.480 it's worked out phenomenal. And I think a lot 00:18:54.480 --> 00:18:57.279 of people are re -looking at that and realizing 00:18:57.279 --> 00:18:59.799 that there's a lot of resiliency that goes into 00:18:59.799 --> 00:19:03.500 investing into your own energy and the impact 00:19:03.500 --> 00:19:07.930 that it has on your neighbors. yeah no i think 00:19:07.930 --> 00:19:10.849 that's i'm good for you that's fantastic i mean 00:19:10.849 --> 00:19:12.990 i love when we're when i'm getting to talk to 00:19:12.990 --> 00:19:16.109 folks that are taking their own personal decisions 00:19:16.109 --> 00:19:21.190 about this because it is um you know it gives 00:19:21.190 --> 00:19:23.150 you the resiliency to be able to do your podcast 00:19:23.150 --> 00:19:27.470 whenever you want wherever you want so yeah it's 00:19:27.470 --> 00:19:29.710 it's it's amazing i mean we're seeing this through 00:19:29.710 --> 00:19:32.289 like cities as they're planning for emergency 00:19:32.289 --> 00:19:39.339 operations um we um We moderated a panel at a 00:19:39.339 --> 00:19:44.519 recent California League of Cities conference, 00:19:44.579 --> 00:19:46.940 and it was about some of the fires that happened 00:19:46.940 --> 00:19:50.099 in Malibu, and we're currently working in that 00:19:50.099 --> 00:19:52.000 community. And they were talking about their 00:19:52.000 --> 00:19:53.839 emergency operations center. The city manager 00:19:53.839 --> 00:19:58.039 at the time was talking about when those fires 00:19:58.039 --> 00:20:01.059 broke out, of course, staff reports to City Hall 00:20:01.059 --> 00:20:03.960 to manage it as an emergency operations center. 00:20:04.640 --> 00:20:07.200 Within 15 minutes of getting to City Hall, the 00:20:07.200 --> 00:20:11.819 city manager had to demobilize from City Hall 00:20:11.819 --> 00:20:16.420 to a secondary emergency operations center because 00:20:16.420 --> 00:20:19.700 of where the fire was. That secondary emergency 00:20:19.700 --> 00:20:23.119 operations center didn't hold very long either. 00:20:23.500 --> 00:20:26.559 And then they were in another city trying to 00:20:26.559 --> 00:20:30.109 manage their operations. We're starting to see 00:20:30.109 --> 00:20:32.869 even cities look at mobile emergency operation 00:20:32.869 --> 00:20:35.910 centers because, you know, you can see this. 00:20:35.950 --> 00:20:37.650 You've seen like, I don't remember whether it's 00:20:37.650 --> 00:20:40.069 Verizon or T -Mobile, one of these companies, 00:20:40.230 --> 00:20:42.869 you know, they're able to provide these cell 00:20:42.869 --> 00:20:46.809 towers as mobile systems. And I think you start 00:20:46.809 --> 00:20:52.490 combining communication and generation and computer 00:20:52.490 --> 00:20:56.329 power to be able to operate in these outages. 00:20:57.400 --> 00:20:59.759 We live in a world where there are more and more 00:20:59.759 --> 00:21:03.240 disruptions to our electrical distribution systems. 00:21:03.359 --> 00:21:05.740 And you've got to get, you know, cities, school 00:21:05.740 --> 00:21:08.119 districts, private entities, they've got to get 00:21:08.119 --> 00:21:10.839 out ahead of maintaining their critical operations 00:21:10.839 --> 00:21:13.940 during these power outages. And it's one thing 00:21:13.940 --> 00:21:16.119 to say, well, I'm in my house. I've got a gas 00:21:16.119 --> 00:21:19.299 heater. I can hunker down for five days. If you're 00:21:19.299 --> 00:21:23.019 a business or a school district, you can't do 00:21:23.019 --> 00:21:25.400 that. Can't do that. Yeah. Right. It takes a 00:21:25.400 --> 00:21:28.160 lot of engineering, a lot of thought going into 00:21:28.160 --> 00:21:30.180 what are these additional sources that we can 00:21:30.180 --> 00:21:31.869 work with. You know, it's interesting that you 00:21:31.869 --> 00:21:33.130 brought that up with the mobile command center. 00:21:33.230 --> 00:21:35.029 That was actually the inspiration for the studio 00:21:35.029 --> 00:21:38.349 was I had seen some mobile command centers that 00:21:38.349 --> 00:21:40.849 were running fully, you know, remote. They were 00:21:40.849 --> 00:21:43.730 doing all of their broadcasting through Starlink. 00:21:43.829 --> 00:21:45.670 And so that's what we ended up doing. We ordered 00:21:45.670 --> 00:21:49.049 a 20 foot mobile command center and retrofitted 00:21:49.049 --> 00:21:51.509 it with all of our solar and battery and Starlink 00:21:51.509 --> 00:21:55.069 so that it could be mobile. And in the event 00:21:55.069 --> 00:21:57.869 that, you know, we had natural disasters that 00:21:57.869 --> 00:22:00.150 were in a drivable distance, you know, we could. 00:22:00.400 --> 00:22:02.900 We could provide some services. We could provide 00:22:02.900 --> 00:22:05.579 charging stations for our schools. You know, 00:22:05.599 --> 00:22:08.480 we can have some basic communications. And so 00:22:08.480 --> 00:22:15.500 it opens up the human aspect of providing for, 00:22:15.660 --> 00:22:18.470 you know. for your community. And when we look 00:22:18.470 --> 00:22:21.250 at what all of the different energy solutions 00:22:21.250 --> 00:22:24.630 are, we do have energy solutions. And I think 00:22:24.630 --> 00:22:26.509 that's where Schneider really comes into play 00:22:26.509 --> 00:22:28.890 is they look at what those energy solutions are 00:22:28.890 --> 00:22:30.890 and not just saying, okay, everything is going 00:22:30.890 --> 00:22:34.269 to have to be this grid line. Well, let's think 00:22:34.269 --> 00:22:36.710 about what your options are. Let's see what the 00:22:36.710 --> 00:22:39.269 management is. And then we start talking about 00:22:39.269 --> 00:22:43.680 things like, well, are we starting to see artificial 00:22:43.680 --> 00:22:47.700 intelligence aiding in the load management of 00:22:47.700 --> 00:22:51.359 our grid. I've been wondering that myself. I 00:22:51.359 --> 00:22:55.279 am not a grid expert, so I can't answer any questions 00:22:55.279 --> 00:22:58.119 related to what's happening on the grid, but 00:22:58.119 --> 00:23:01.059 I certainly can understand that, you know, like 00:23:01.059 --> 00:23:05.240 we do a lot of work for these resiliency solutions 00:23:05.240 --> 00:23:08.920 and we have, you know, energy command centers 00:23:08.920 --> 00:23:11.720 for some of these. And they are very sophisticated 00:23:11.720 --> 00:23:14.880 learning, you know, in cases, learning devices 00:23:14.880 --> 00:23:17.880 that can understand which loads need to come 00:23:17.880 --> 00:23:21.480 on and off, depending on how complex a microgrid 00:23:21.480 --> 00:23:24.720 that you install is. And I think like everything 00:23:24.720 --> 00:23:28.839 that is happening with machine learning and AI, 00:23:29.319 --> 00:23:32.400 all that stuff is going to get better the more 00:23:32.400 --> 00:23:36.339 it gets put into use. But it's remarkable how 00:23:37.000 --> 00:23:40.960 little steps that are still human can be done 00:23:40.960 --> 00:23:43.619 so we do a lot of a lot of our projects have 00:23:43.619 --> 00:23:46.420 like building automation systems improvements 00:23:46.420 --> 00:23:50.259 right retro commissioning recommissioning or 00:23:50.259 --> 00:23:52.460 putting in new building automation systems because 00:23:52.460 --> 00:23:55.819 when you get back to that negawatt it's really 00:23:55.819 --> 00:23:57.660 important to turn things off when they don't 00:23:57.660 --> 00:24:00.599 need to be on and what we find in so many of 00:24:00.599 --> 00:24:05.079 our clients is even clients that might have building 00:24:05.079 --> 00:24:09.000 automation systems You go in on a Saturday evening 00:24:09.000 --> 00:24:13.900 and a school might be running full bore. And 00:24:13.900 --> 00:24:18.519 it's maybe because they had a basketball game 00:24:18.519 --> 00:24:21.799 in the morning. And the facilities person went 00:24:21.799 --> 00:24:24.799 on Friday night to turn it on so they could have 00:24:24.799 --> 00:24:28.000 heating and cooling and power for that basketball 00:24:28.000 --> 00:24:30.140 game. But maybe you're only using it for three 00:24:30.140 --> 00:24:33.059 hours. But because it was turned on on a Friday 00:24:33.059 --> 00:24:36.900 night, it now runs all weekend. you could turn 00:24:36.900 --> 00:24:40.099 that off and so with sophisticated building automation 00:24:40.099 --> 00:24:44.039 systems or even frankly some fairly simple building 00:24:44.039 --> 00:24:47.619 automation systems you can you know from the 00:24:47.619 --> 00:24:49.940 palm of your hand be able to turn things on and 00:24:49.940 --> 00:24:53.579 off and some of those things can certainly be 00:24:53.579 --> 00:24:58.039 can you know managed um you know eventually through 00:24:58.039 --> 00:25:02.720 machine learning you know type installations 00:25:02.720 --> 00:25:06.259 but just even getting to the basics of Turning 00:25:06.259 --> 00:25:08.339 things off when they don't need to be running, 00:25:08.579 --> 00:25:11.680 there's a massive amount of energy savings in 00:25:11.680 --> 00:25:14.660 most facilities. So a lot of what we do at Schneider 00:25:14.660 --> 00:25:17.619 Electric is we go and really analyze these facilities. 00:25:17.799 --> 00:25:20.900 We talk to everything from, you know, we talk 00:25:20.900 --> 00:25:23.019 about like from the boiler plant to the boardroom, 00:25:23.180 --> 00:25:26.819 right? We talk to the technicians all the way 00:25:26.819 --> 00:25:30.160 to the executives of these organizations to understand 00:25:30.160 --> 00:25:32.940 what their goals and missions are, but also. 00:25:33.549 --> 00:25:35.509 how do they really operate their facilities? 00:25:35.750 --> 00:25:37.470 How do they maintain their facilities? What are 00:25:37.470 --> 00:25:40.369 they capable of maintaining? So that when we 00:25:40.369 --> 00:25:43.410 design new solutions for them too, we're not 00:25:43.410 --> 00:25:45.269 putting in systems they can't maintain. They're 00:25:45.269 --> 00:25:49.450 too complex for their staff or they're too complex 00:25:49.450 --> 00:25:52.950 for the systems. Many of us have been through 00:25:52.950 --> 00:25:56.849 phases with co -generation systems and those 00:25:56.849 --> 00:26:00.529 are really finicky when they're too small. When 00:26:00.529 --> 00:26:03.880 you get a big... you know megawatt two megawatts 00:26:03.880 --> 00:26:06.160 of code generation they can run pretty efficiently 00:26:06.160 --> 00:26:11.039 but when you're at 100 or 200 kw they're they're 00:26:11.039 --> 00:26:14.200 often more trouble to to operate and so what 00:26:14.200 --> 00:26:17.099 we find is we go into these facilities and we 00:26:17.099 --> 00:26:20.339 find systems that have been turned from automatic 00:26:20.339 --> 00:26:25.079 to manual because it's easier and they want to 00:26:25.079 --> 00:26:28.579 avoid hot and cold calls but we're going to have 00:26:28.579 --> 00:26:31.750 to get to a point where we're letting our automation 00:26:31.750 --> 00:26:35.029 systems, whether they're fully computerized or 00:26:35.029 --> 00:26:39.730 AI enabled to make some of these decisions on 00:26:39.730 --> 00:26:41.789 turning things off, because we have a ton of 00:26:41.789 --> 00:26:44.549 capacity in our grid. If we would just turn things 00:26:44.549 --> 00:26:47.730 off. Yeah. When they don't need to be on. That 00:26:47.730 --> 00:26:49.630 makes so much sense. And I'm glad you bring that 00:26:49.630 --> 00:26:51.630 point up because so many people are just afraid, 00:26:51.829 --> 00:26:54.309 you know, hey, we're going to outgrow our grid. 00:26:54.650 --> 00:26:57.910 And I personally, I feel like it's a management. 00:26:58.430 --> 00:27:00.910 scenario that we're focusing on right now and 00:27:00.910 --> 00:27:03.970 using technology to aid in that. I just finished 00:27:03.970 --> 00:27:06.950 doing an installation for a heat pump water heater. 00:27:07.109 --> 00:27:12.250 And I was even fascinated at its automation capabilities. 00:27:12.829 --> 00:27:16.589 You could actually set it so that it would monitor 00:27:16.589 --> 00:27:19.210 its own energy use through the day. And based 00:27:19.210 --> 00:27:22.069 on location and based on utility, I could actually 00:27:22.069 --> 00:27:25.410 have that running at periods when my energy cost 00:27:25.410 --> 00:27:29.390 was the lowest. Yeah. And so little things like 00:27:29.390 --> 00:27:32.890 that will add up when we all start thinking about 00:27:32.890 --> 00:27:36.049 those solutions. So maybe that increase from 00:27:36.049 --> 00:27:39.269 a standard water heater into a heat pump water 00:27:39.269 --> 00:27:41.250 heater, which many of us are going to end up 00:27:41.250 --> 00:27:43.769 doing, especially once we get closer to 2028 00:27:43.769 --> 00:27:46.569 and our current regulations stay with water heaters, 00:27:46.589 --> 00:27:47.910 a lot of us are going to be installing heat pump 00:27:47.910 --> 00:27:50.069 water heaters, even though there's that upfront 00:27:50.069 --> 00:27:53.769 cost that is higher. The management and the energy 00:27:53.769 --> 00:27:56.190 savings, the utility savings that comes from 00:27:56.190 --> 00:27:59.109 that adds up when a few million of us all do 00:27:59.109 --> 00:28:01.450 that at the same time. Yeah. And then you're 00:28:01.450 --> 00:28:03.650 just looking for places in the grid that are 00:28:03.650 --> 00:28:08.069 gridlocked because of just natural transmission 00:28:08.069 --> 00:28:11.430 and distribution, but not everywhere. Right. 00:28:11.630 --> 00:28:15.490 Yeah. Fantastic. Man, this is a great conversation. 00:28:15.589 --> 00:28:17.210 We're going to have to do this again and I'll 00:28:17.210 --> 00:28:19.809 be broadcasting from the studio because I don't 00:28:19.809 --> 00:28:21.529 know why I'm having an electrical conversation 00:28:21.529 --> 00:28:23.450 sitting in the office and not out my pride and 00:28:23.450 --> 00:28:26.529 joy. And I will try to do it from a better device 00:28:26.529 --> 00:28:31.490 where I have a better Wi -Fi and a Schneiderized 00:28:31.490 --> 00:28:35.880 background. That'd be fun. Yeah, you yeah, you're 00:28:35.880 --> 00:28:39.079 probably seeing the edge of my elliptical. So 00:28:39.079 --> 00:28:42.599 we got to keep moving to our electrical systems 00:28:42.599 --> 00:28:44.920 need to move and our bodies need to move. But 00:28:44.920 --> 00:28:48.500 I think these resiliency solutions are are essential. 00:28:48.660 --> 00:28:50.900 And, you know, we've come through a time to where 00:28:50.900 --> 00:28:53.539 and where you are in the country, maybe the term 00:28:53.539 --> 00:28:57.859 sustainability or green or. you know isn't appropriate 00:28:57.859 --> 00:29:02.500 in today's economy or in today's politics but 00:29:02.500 --> 00:29:05.079 resiliency works for everybody i mean we have 00:29:05.079 --> 00:29:08.460 to be resilient facilities heck we have to be 00:29:08.460 --> 00:29:11.480 resilient humans but we have to we have to have 00:29:11.480 --> 00:29:14.660 resiliency built into all of our decisions so 00:29:14.660 --> 00:29:19.299 that our operations are sustainable um and that's 00:29:19.299 --> 00:29:21.480 you know i think it's important to use the right 00:29:21.480 --> 00:29:25.230 language and i know you talk to and work with 00:29:25.230 --> 00:29:29.509 a lot of technicians and installers and M &O 00:29:29.509 --> 00:29:32.470 folks. And it's really important that they embrace 00:29:32.470 --> 00:29:35.990 these changes. And, you know, one of the things 00:29:35.990 --> 00:29:38.089 we do in all of our projects, too, is we do a 00:29:38.089 --> 00:29:40.930 lot of teaching. You know, a friend of mine once 00:29:40.930 --> 00:29:44.990 told me you train animals and you teach humans. 00:29:45.150 --> 00:29:50.289 And so we do a lot of teaching because it's in 00:29:50.289 --> 00:29:53.400 our interest for our projects. to go well and 00:29:53.400 --> 00:29:56.000 the installation to go well and the long -term 00:29:56.000 --> 00:29:58.720 efficacy of them to be good and so it's important 00:29:58.720 --> 00:30:01.279 that the that the maintenance and operations 00:30:01.279 --> 00:30:04.740 staff really understands kind of the why of doing 00:30:04.740 --> 00:30:08.579 these and ask questions and that we we teach 00:30:08.579 --> 00:30:11.380 them really how to optimize and operate these 00:30:11.380 --> 00:30:14.500 systems so we do a lot of long -term service 00:30:14.500 --> 00:30:16.980 with a lot of our clients so that they can feel 00:30:16.980 --> 00:30:20.039 comfortable when staff changes or when they haven't 00:30:20.039 --> 00:30:23.809 had to do something but once a year. And then 00:30:23.809 --> 00:30:25.869 we also try to make sure they have good preventative 00:30:25.869 --> 00:30:27.529 maintenance programs so that they're changing 00:30:27.529 --> 00:30:32.369 filters. An HVAC system in a commercial or large 00:30:32.369 --> 00:30:35.289 facility is going to have challenges if you're 00:30:35.289 --> 00:30:38.970 never changing your filters. And that is always 00:30:38.970 --> 00:30:41.849 important. So we try to build in systems that 00:30:41.849 --> 00:30:45.650 are easy to maintain and provide the teaching 00:30:45.650 --> 00:30:49.410 necessary to maintain those regularly. Love it. 00:30:49.880 --> 00:30:53.220 Great conversations. Jordan Lerner, Vice President 00:30:53.220 --> 00:30:56.200 of the West Region for Schneider Electric. I 00:30:56.200 --> 00:30:58.539 really appreciate your time. I appreciate Schneider 00:30:58.539 --> 00:31:00.779 Electric allowing you to join us. And I hope 00:31:00.779 --> 00:31:02.339 we have some more conversations. This was a lot 00:31:02.339 --> 00:31:04.539 of fun. Yeah, I would absolutely love to, Clifton. 00:31:04.559 --> 00:31:08.019 Have a terrific day. And don't hesitate to reach 00:31:08.019 --> 00:31:10.480 out to me if I can be of any help to you. Okay. 00:31:10.779 --> 00:31:12.700 Where can we learn more about Schneider Electric 00:31:12.700 --> 00:31:15.640 before we hop off air? Yeah, that's a good question. 00:31:15.859 --> 00:31:18.359 I mean, you can certainly reach out to me directly. 00:31:19.599 --> 00:31:23.660 I'm just jordan .learner at se .com. We obviously 00:31:23.660 --> 00:31:27.680 have a full contingent of websites at schneiderelectric 00:31:27.680 --> 00:31:32.759 .com or se .com. And, you know, look for our, 00:31:32.819 --> 00:31:35.039 sometimes it's called performance contracting 00:31:35.039 --> 00:31:39.039 or design build contracting. Strangely enough, 00:31:39.099 --> 00:31:41.400 our industry is called ESCO, Energy Services 00:31:41.400 --> 00:31:45.019 Contracting. So we're aligned with you perfectly. 00:31:46.269 --> 00:31:48.470 Fantastic stuff. Well, we thank you so much. 00:31:48.470 --> 00:31:51.309 And we will see you all again on the next episode 00:31:51.309 --> 00:31:55.130 of Did You Know? The ESCO Age Fact Podcast. Bye, 00:31:55.190 --> 00:31:55.369 everybody.