WEBVTT 00:00:06.240 --> 00:00:09.580 Welcome to Did You Know, the ESCO HVAC podcast, 00:00:09.980 --> 00:00:12.140 the show where we explore the cool, the hot, 00:00:12.140 --> 00:00:15.119 and the everything in between of the HVACR industry. 00:00:15.460 --> 00:00:18.980 Each week, we dig into the innovations, the insights, 00:00:19.160 --> 00:00:21.800 and the inspiring stories that power our trade 00:00:21.800 --> 00:00:24.420 from the classroom to the job site and beyond. 00:00:24.559 --> 00:00:26.920 This episode is brought to you by this week's 00:00:26.920 --> 00:00:29.780 amazing sponsors. Daikin Comfort Technology, 00:00:30.219 --> 00:00:34.000 perfecting the air since 1924. Lincoln Tech. 00:00:34.399 --> 00:00:37.719 put your potential to work. NAVAC, professional 00:00:37.719 --> 00:00:41.979 tools and equipment for HVACR technicians. Amatrol 00:00:41.979 --> 00:00:45.960 trainers, globally impactful, personally empowering. 00:00:46.299 --> 00:00:51.179 As well as AGAS, together we can. Whether you're 00:00:51.179 --> 00:00:53.399 just getting started or you've been turning wrenches 00:00:53.399 --> 00:00:56.159 for decades like myself, there's always something 00:00:56.159 --> 00:00:59.320 new for us to learn. I'm Clifton Beck and this 00:00:59.320 --> 00:01:04.140 is Did You Know? The ESCO HVAC Podcast. Let's 00:01:04.140 --> 00:01:06.739 dive in. Well, hello, everyone. Thank you for 00:01:06.739 --> 00:01:10.079 joining us again on Did You Know, the ESCO HVAC 00:01:10.079 --> 00:01:12.939 podcast. So today we're spending some time with 00:01:12.939 --> 00:01:14.920 Nick Mislak from Danfoss. How are you doing? 00:01:15.359 --> 00:01:16.760 I'm doing well, thanks. Thanks for having me. 00:01:17.000 --> 00:01:19.799 Oh, no, this is wonderful. We love talking about 00:01:19.799 --> 00:01:22.200 technology and innovation, and Danfoss has always 00:01:22.200 --> 00:01:25.540 been at the forefront of what's happening with 00:01:25.540 --> 00:01:29.640 the next steps in efficiency and technology. 00:01:30.540 --> 00:01:32.719 And when we start talking about those changes, 00:01:32.840 --> 00:01:35.579 there's a very important process that is happening 00:01:35.579 --> 00:01:38.680 within pretty much all sectors of refrigeration. 00:01:38.680 --> 00:01:40.959 From the commercial refrigeration, it's trickling 00:01:40.959 --> 00:01:42.799 down. We'll talk about some of that at the end 00:01:42.799 --> 00:01:45.519 of the show. But the commercial refrigeration 00:01:45.519 --> 00:01:47.980 sector, especially with Danfoss, has always been 00:01:47.980 --> 00:01:52.019 about performance and efficiencies. And we're 00:01:52.019 --> 00:01:54.319 moving into a generation where we're going to 00:01:54.319 --> 00:01:56.920 be spending a lot more time talking about vapor 00:01:56.920 --> 00:02:01.200 injection and economizers. of the refrigerant. 00:02:01.400 --> 00:02:05.219 And to many, it's a new term. So would you mind 00:02:05.219 --> 00:02:07.400 kind of starting us from like a thousand foot 00:02:07.400 --> 00:02:10.960 and we'll work our way down? Like what is economizing 00:02:10.960 --> 00:02:13.300 or economization? Yeah, exactly. So, I mean, 00:02:13.319 --> 00:02:15.180 there's a lot of different things when you talk 00:02:15.180 --> 00:02:16.900 about economizers, right? You have, you know, 00:02:16.900 --> 00:02:19.060 water side economizer, which you would see in, 00:02:19.099 --> 00:02:21.759 you know, a free cooling type application for 00:02:21.759 --> 00:02:23.879 maybe data centers or things like that. So it 00:02:23.879 --> 00:02:25.599 could be, you know, water, glycol, that sort 00:02:25.599 --> 00:02:27.969 of thing. And then you move into kind of a rooftop 00:02:27.969 --> 00:02:29.689 area where you have, you know, your traditional 00:02:29.689 --> 00:02:32.550 air to air side economizer. So, you know, when 00:02:32.550 --> 00:02:34.189 the conditions are right and you bring in the 00:02:34.189 --> 00:02:36.169 outside air or DOAS units as well, bring the 00:02:36.169 --> 00:02:38.289 outside air, you know, conditioned space to get 00:02:38.289 --> 00:02:40.270 the humidity and the temperatures down. So you 00:02:40.270 --> 00:02:41.710 can take advantage of kind of some free cooling 00:02:41.710 --> 00:02:43.789 techniques there. But really what we're talking 00:02:43.789 --> 00:02:45.569 about here is the refrigerant side economizer. 00:02:45.710 --> 00:02:48.449 So, you know, we're injecting refrigerant, you 00:02:48.449 --> 00:02:51.289 know, a vapor or mixture of wet and vapor into 00:02:51.289 --> 00:02:53.770 the compressor, you know, through a separate 00:02:53.770 --> 00:02:55.629 fitting in the compressor itself to essentially. 00:02:56.139 --> 00:02:57.620 you know cool the compressor down but then you 00:02:57.620 --> 00:03:00.300 also get some benefits in efficiency and you 00:03:00.300 --> 00:03:03.659 know capacity as well okay you know maybe what 00:03:03.659 --> 00:03:05.199 we're talking about here as well is a little 00:03:05.199 --> 00:03:07.219 more on the vapor side and into the compressor 00:03:07.219 --> 00:03:10.080 sure and part of the reason this is becoming 00:03:10.889 --> 00:03:13.889 more prevalent now is really compressor design. 00:03:14.189 --> 00:03:16.789 You know, if we would have tried dumping additional 00:03:16.789 --> 00:03:18.610 refrigerant into the middle of the compression 00:03:18.610 --> 00:03:21.530 cycle of a hermetic compress, semi -hermetic 00:03:21.530 --> 00:03:24.189 compressor, all we would have done was just change 00:03:24.189 --> 00:03:27.949 the pressure. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so these new 00:03:27.949 --> 00:03:30.289 compressors, I mean, you know, we can also consider 00:03:30.289 --> 00:03:32.069 liquid injection as well because a lot of the 00:03:32.069 --> 00:03:34.030 compressors, particularly the ones that we make 00:03:34.030 --> 00:03:37.330 here, can do liquid or vapor or mixes. both so 00:03:37.330 --> 00:03:40.030 how you want to set the system up basically but 00:03:40.030 --> 00:03:42.330 yeah I mean it's a new compressor design which 00:03:42.330 --> 00:03:44.150 we're still talking this case you know scroll 00:03:44.150 --> 00:03:45.969 compressors mainly for where we are right now 00:03:45.969 --> 00:03:48.490 today but you know it's the the internals of 00:03:48.490 --> 00:03:50.110 the compressor designed to be able to handle 00:03:50.110 --> 00:03:52.289 those you know additional liquid coming in the 00:03:52.289 --> 00:03:54.129 compressor additional vapor so you have you know 00:03:54.129 --> 00:03:56.289 some more beefier components things like that 00:03:56.289 --> 00:03:58.330 that are more geared towards like heat pump applications 00:03:58.330 --> 00:04:01.150 so it's kind of an optimized design for heat 00:04:01.150 --> 00:04:04.030 pumps yeah it definitely and especially in like 00:04:04.030 --> 00:04:06.669 those scroll and sometimes even in the rotary 00:04:06.669 --> 00:04:09.689 applications and really the reason we're doing 00:04:09.689 --> 00:04:13.210 that is as our as particularly in our scroll 00:04:13.210 --> 00:04:16.370 as we're completing that scroll rotation we're 00:04:16.370 --> 00:04:20.569 actually closing off the intake side of our compression 00:04:20.569 --> 00:04:23.790 process which gives us the ability to to isolate 00:04:23.790 --> 00:04:26.829 that compression chamber and so now we can do 00:04:26.829 --> 00:04:32.029 some things with that so i mean let's talk about 00:04:32.029 --> 00:04:34.149 like the basics of it because it is fairly new 00:04:34.149 --> 00:04:37.709 like so what are we doing so probably the most 00:04:37.709 --> 00:04:39.370 simple way would be i guess to start because 00:04:39.370 --> 00:04:40.569 we're talking if we're talking about injection 00:04:40.569 --> 00:04:42.230 and mainly heat pumps and stuff and you know 00:04:42.720 --> 00:04:44.699 the kind of the simpler architecture would be 00:04:44.699 --> 00:04:46.779 liquid only injection which we've had for kind 00:04:46.779 --> 00:04:48.300 of a long time that's kind of where the market 00:04:48.300 --> 00:04:50.980 started with heat pumps right in this case you 00:04:50.980 --> 00:04:52.839 know you have some you know your expansion valve 00:04:52.839 --> 00:04:54.639 electronic expansion valve or solenoid valve 00:04:54.639 --> 00:04:56.800 something that's kind of modulating you know 00:04:56.800 --> 00:04:59.220 pure liquid flow into the compressor and all 00:04:59.220 --> 00:05:00.980 that's really doing is pulling the compressor 00:05:00.980 --> 00:05:02.899 down so you're managing your compressor discharge 00:05:02.899 --> 00:05:05.680 temperature to basically be with under you know 00:05:05.680 --> 00:05:07.399 the acceptable limits for the compressor so that 00:05:07.399 --> 00:05:10.160 gives you a larger operating map to be able to 00:05:10.160 --> 00:05:11.959 handle you know some of the extreme conditions 00:05:11.959 --> 00:05:14.240 that you get for cold climate heat pumps but 00:05:14.240 --> 00:05:16.220 it doesn't get you anything as far as you know 00:05:16.220 --> 00:05:18.259 increases in capacity or increases in efficiency 00:05:18.259 --> 00:05:20.899 it's mainly just to completely manage the compressor 00:05:20.899 --> 00:05:22.500 discharge temperature to make sure we ensure 00:05:22.500 --> 00:05:25.120 that everything you know works reliable reliable 00:05:25.120 --> 00:05:27.800 but we're talking about vapor then we're adding 00:05:27.800 --> 00:05:29.459 in extra components right so we're adding an 00:05:29.459 --> 00:05:32.199 economizer brace plate or microplate economizer 00:05:32.199 --> 00:05:35.639 in most cases again expansion device of some 00:05:35.639 --> 00:05:38.060 sort either you know pulse width modulation expansion 00:05:38.060 --> 00:05:41.699 valve excuse me, or another EEV. Yeah. So in 00:05:41.699 --> 00:05:43.699 this case, we're managing the economizer similarly 00:05:43.699 --> 00:05:46.060 as what we kind of manage an evaporator, right? 00:05:46.100 --> 00:05:49.000 So we're managing the superheat into the compressor, 00:05:49.060 --> 00:05:50.639 basically. And so that's kind of what we're talking 00:05:50.639 --> 00:05:51.839 about when we're talking about vapor injection. 00:05:52.540 --> 00:05:55.660 So when we do that, you know, we're injecting 00:05:55.660 --> 00:05:57.519 the vapor into the compressor, right? So we're, 00:05:57.519 --> 00:05:59.600 you know, causing the compressor to do a little 00:05:59.600 --> 00:06:01.579 bit less work. So that's giving you some benefits 00:06:01.579 --> 00:06:04.319 as far as the capacity goes. but then you know 00:06:04.319 --> 00:06:06.160 since we also have an economizer in the mix then 00:06:06.160 --> 00:06:07.740 we're getting a little bit you know a benefit 00:06:07.740 --> 00:06:09.720 on the sub cooling side into the actual main 00:06:09.720 --> 00:06:11.439 evaporators that's kind of where the two benefits 00:06:11.439 --> 00:06:14.560 come into play capacity and efficiency and then 00:06:14.560 --> 00:06:16.259 you still get the wide operating envelope that 00:06:16.259 --> 00:06:17.800 you would have a liquid injection so that's kind 00:06:17.800 --> 00:06:19.939 of where we're going today it's more towards 00:06:19.939 --> 00:06:23.120 vapor a little bit less towards liquid yeah i 00:06:23.120 --> 00:06:25.540 can absolutely see that now are we talking about 00:06:25.540 --> 00:06:28.860 just for refrigeration are we talking about uh 00:06:28.860 --> 00:06:32.040 air conditioning and you know heat pump applications 00:06:32.720 --> 00:06:34.680 Yeah, both really. I mean, so you can take advantage 00:06:34.680 --> 00:06:36.199 of the, I mean, if you already have the economizer 00:06:36.199 --> 00:06:38.040 built into the system, then you can take advantage 00:06:38.040 --> 00:06:39.860 of it across, you know, the whole, you know, 00:06:39.860 --> 00:06:41.699 operating envelope of the unit itself to get, 00:06:41.800 --> 00:06:44.259 you know, more benefits. So in some cases, even 00:06:44.259 --> 00:06:45.959 in cooling only mode, you can get, you know, 00:06:45.980 --> 00:06:48.600 better efficiencies, better capacities. But then 00:06:48.600 --> 00:06:50.240 for certain on the heat pump side, you know, 00:06:50.279 --> 00:06:52.500 there's just no way to get down to these colder 00:06:52.500 --> 00:06:54.399 climates. You know, if we go to north, you know, 00:06:54.399 --> 00:06:56.160 in Minnesota, Canada, that, you know, we can 00:06:56.160 --> 00:06:57.899 never run a heat pump in those conditions, you 00:06:57.899 --> 00:07:00.819 know, before. But now we can with vapor injection 00:07:00.819 --> 00:07:04.519 included. So, I mean, you get, you know, it's 00:07:04.519 --> 00:07:06.180 kind of a dual phase, right? You know, cooling 00:07:06.180 --> 00:07:08.480 has benefits, but primarily, you know, the heating 00:07:08.480 --> 00:07:10.779 spans the envelope. And that's where we're starting 00:07:10.779 --> 00:07:12.379 to really see a push for the market, you know, 00:07:12.379 --> 00:07:14.899 systems that want to be cold climate heat pumps 00:07:14.899 --> 00:07:17.360 or developments, and they're mostly going towards 00:07:17.360 --> 00:07:21.360 the vapor direction. So what circumstances are 00:07:21.360 --> 00:07:24.420 we going to be using vapor injection? Like if 00:07:24.420 --> 00:07:27.579 we have a compressor that is introduced this 00:07:27.579 --> 00:07:30.639 braze plate style heat exchanger with the metering 00:07:30.639 --> 00:07:33.560 device to put vapor into the compression cycle, 00:07:33.819 --> 00:07:37.959 are we doing it the entire operating range of 00:07:37.959 --> 00:07:41.279 the compressor or are we introducing it like 00:07:41.279 --> 00:07:45.279 proportioning it into based on temperature? Yeah, 00:07:45.360 --> 00:07:47.920 exactly. So depending on the kind of your, you 00:07:47.920 --> 00:07:49.379 know, evaporating temperature and your condensing 00:07:49.379 --> 00:07:50.980 temperature. So if you're, say you're at a really 00:07:50.980 --> 00:07:53.759 high ambient cooling only situation, then it's 00:07:53.759 --> 00:07:55.560 not really going to give you a huge benefit to 00:07:55.560 --> 00:07:57.199 add, you know, vapor injection to the compressor. 00:07:57.620 --> 00:08:00.079 But as you move down to lower evaporating temperatures 00:08:00.079 --> 00:08:02.100 where you still need high discharge temperatures 00:08:02.100 --> 00:08:04.339 or condensing temperatures, that's when you're 00:08:04.339 --> 00:08:05.879 really going to start injecting, you know, vapor 00:08:05.879 --> 00:08:07.500 into the compressor. And what really happens 00:08:07.500 --> 00:08:09.579 is, you know, kind of the more extreme you go 00:08:09.579 --> 00:08:11.970 down, then you inject. you know less and less 00:08:11.970 --> 00:08:14.930 vapor and then there becomes a vapor liquid mixture 00:08:14.930 --> 00:08:17.250 so you know you're because you still have to 00:08:17.250 --> 00:08:18.649 cool the compressor down right so you get to 00:08:18.649 --> 00:08:20.629 some point where you have to go from vapor to 00:08:20.629 --> 00:08:22.850 liquid or vapor to wet to liquid injection so 00:08:22.850 --> 00:08:25.250 that's kind of where you know we've we've designed 00:08:25.250 --> 00:08:27.149 our compressor operating maps right so the lower 00:08:27.149 --> 00:08:30.129 you go ambient you know so ambient low evaps 00:08:30.129 --> 00:08:31.689 you know high condensing that's kind of where 00:08:31.689 --> 00:08:34.350 you're going to see you know the main uh you 00:08:34.350 --> 00:08:37.509 know mass flow into the compressor And by using 00:08:37.509 --> 00:08:39.610 like an electronic expansion valve, something 00:08:39.610 --> 00:08:41.990 that you can manage how much you're flowing. 00:08:42.049 --> 00:08:43.909 It's not like using a thermostatic expansion 00:08:43.909 --> 00:08:46.649 valve that is just going to, you know, proportionate 00:08:46.649 --> 00:08:48.950 based on a temperature with that electronic, 00:08:48.990 --> 00:08:53.049 you can control how much refrigerant at what 00:08:53.049 --> 00:08:55.690 temperatures, whether it's vapor or you can open 00:08:55.690 --> 00:08:58.960 up and run liquid, even if need be. Yeah, and 00:08:58.960 --> 00:09:00.860 you kind of have to, and that's a good thing 00:09:00.860 --> 00:09:03.500 to mention as well. Of course, there's a controls 00:09:03.500 --> 00:09:05.440 component as well. You have to have a controller 00:09:05.440 --> 00:09:07.679 to manage this injection cycle, right? So it 00:09:07.679 --> 00:09:10.820 needs to know how much vapor to inject to manage 00:09:10.820 --> 00:09:13.720 that superheat level, but then also when he's 00:09:13.720 --> 00:09:16.820 to transition from vapor to more wet to even 00:09:16.820 --> 00:09:18.940 to liquid injection based on discharge gas temperature. 00:09:19.139 --> 00:09:21.519 So there's for sure a controls component that's 00:09:21.519 --> 00:09:24.059 definitely going to be new for a lot of contractors, 00:09:24.299 --> 00:09:26.659 installers, a bit more complexity there than 00:09:26.659 --> 00:09:30.159 what they're used to. And that's probably the 00:09:30.159 --> 00:09:33.019 biggest pushback we get from contractors. And 00:09:33.019 --> 00:09:36.080 I know I was one myself. Many contractors like, 00:09:36.139 --> 00:09:39.039 why can't we bring back our R12 reciprocating 00:09:39.039 --> 00:09:42.059 compressors? Those were easy to work on. Well, 00:09:42.080 --> 00:09:45.039 there's a lot of. A lot of factors that are driving 00:09:45.039 --> 00:09:48.899 the changes. We've got refrigerant changes. We've 00:09:48.899 --> 00:09:51.700 got technology changes. We've even got regulations, 00:09:51.940 --> 00:09:54.799 things like technology transition rule and AMAC 00:09:54.799 --> 00:09:58.139 that are really forcing changes within the industry. 00:09:58.259 --> 00:10:00.820 What trends are you seeing as a manufacturer 00:10:00.820 --> 00:10:04.879 that are bringing about these changes in technology 00:10:04.879 --> 00:10:08.409 most significantly? Yeah, I mean, a lot of it's 00:10:08.409 --> 00:10:09.730 what you mentioned, right? So, I mean, we had 00:10:09.730 --> 00:10:11.690 the big transition from, you know, call it the 00:10:11.690 --> 00:10:13.809 410A universe over to, you know, where we are 00:10:13.809 --> 00:10:16.809 now in the A2Ls in the last year or 2025 anyways. 00:10:17.009 --> 00:10:18.690 But we still have some other applications like 00:10:18.690 --> 00:10:20.870 data centers that are coming, you know, another 00:10:20.870 --> 00:10:23.490 two years later in 2027. So there's all these 00:10:23.490 --> 00:10:25.370 refrigeration, you know, trends that are pushing, 00:10:25.409 --> 00:10:28.070 you know, GWPs less than 700. So we're going 00:10:28.070 --> 00:10:29.789 to see that. And we're also seeing some states, 00:10:29.809 --> 00:10:31.690 you know, New York, California, some of the other 00:10:31.690 --> 00:10:33.909 states that are pushing for, you know, even lower 00:10:33.909 --> 00:10:37.320 GWP levels. Exactly, even faster. yeah even faster 00:10:37.320 --> 00:10:39.220 right so it might not be on a federal level but 00:10:39.220 --> 00:10:42.259 we see it you know for sure on you know state 00:10:42.259 --> 00:10:44.659 to state level or if we talk about like natural 00:10:44.659 --> 00:10:46.840 gas bans and things like that then we see that 00:10:46.840 --> 00:10:49.440 even more widespread across the us where even 00:10:49.440 --> 00:10:52.159 some counties or some districts you know they 00:10:52.159 --> 00:10:55.080 may not allow gas gas whatsoever so you know 00:10:55.080 --> 00:10:56.919 there goes your gas fired furnaces things like 00:10:56.919 --> 00:11:00.259 that so you have to go if you're in a colder 00:11:00.259 --> 00:11:02.259 climate zone then you have to go to one of these 00:11:02.259 --> 00:11:04.259 low ambient cold you know climate heat pumps 00:11:04.259 --> 00:11:06.539 that has you know injection built in essentially 00:11:06.539 --> 00:11:08.879 to get the operating envelope for to be able 00:11:08.879 --> 00:11:11.220 to run across the entire season so so there's 00:11:11.220 --> 00:11:12.820 a lot of stuff there that's coming for sure i 00:11:12.820 --> 00:11:15.600 know gwp lens you know they'll continue to be 00:11:15.600 --> 00:11:17.559 you know pushed down but we also see you know 00:11:17.559 --> 00:11:19.519 creases and proposals for different efficiency 00:11:19.519 --> 00:11:22.100 levels for different pieces of equipment so that's 00:11:22.100 --> 00:11:24.080 going to continue to kind of happen you know 00:11:24.080 --> 00:11:25.860 just depends on the timing and everything set 00:11:25.860 --> 00:11:28.480 but All those things pushed together make it 00:11:28.480 --> 00:11:31.259 really tough for manufacturers to manage because 00:11:31.259 --> 00:11:33.840 they have to do equipment designs all the time, 00:11:33.919 --> 00:11:36.340 new certifications, all that stuff. It becomes 00:11:36.340 --> 00:11:39.000 quite a bit of a challenge and adds this extra 00:11:39.000 --> 00:11:41.919 level of complexity to everybody's daily life, 00:11:41.980 --> 00:11:45.120 so to speak. Yeah, and I think why that's important 00:11:45.120 --> 00:11:47.799 for us to have this conversation because we do 00:11:47.799 --> 00:11:50.200 get contractors saying, well, Our manufacturers 00:11:50.200 --> 00:11:53.179 are just forcing us to go with this new technology 00:11:53.179 --> 00:11:55.179 because they need to make something new. And 00:11:55.179 --> 00:11:58.639 that's not at all the case. It really comes down 00:11:58.639 --> 00:12:03.480 to, as a manufacturer, I would want to make something 00:12:03.480 --> 00:12:07.360 that was the simplest to build and last the longest. 00:12:07.740 --> 00:12:11.500 I mean, that's just a general manufacturing standard. 00:12:12.190 --> 00:12:15.490 So the manufacturers are being forced to make 00:12:15.490 --> 00:12:18.509 changes and come up with new technologies and 00:12:18.509 --> 00:12:21.549 ways to make existing technologies more efficient 00:12:21.549 --> 00:12:25.149 because of a lot of regulation. But there is 00:12:25.149 --> 00:12:27.970 a lot of benefits to it. And as technicians and 00:12:27.970 --> 00:12:31.129 as contractors, we just have to learn. And that's 00:12:31.129 --> 00:12:34.110 why we work closely with our manufacturers like 00:12:34.110 --> 00:12:36.669 yourself to be able to get the education and 00:12:36.669 --> 00:12:39.289 information out in front of these transitions. 00:12:39.330 --> 00:12:43.220 So it's not a difficult. change when we started 00:12:43.220 --> 00:12:46.100 being introduced to this technologies. So what 00:12:46.100 --> 00:12:49.700 would Dan Foss like for contractors and technicians 00:12:49.700 --> 00:12:53.019 to understand as we move into things like vapor 00:12:53.019 --> 00:12:56.019 injection and liquid injection? Yeah. I mean, 00:12:56.039 --> 00:12:57.820 so we've done a lot, right. Cause even the transition 00:12:57.820 --> 00:13:00.080 from, you know, A1 refrigerants that aren't flammable 00:13:00.080 --> 00:13:02.279 to A2L is came with its own challenge, right. 00:13:02.320 --> 00:13:04.799 Not only for, you know, for OEMs and manufacturers 00:13:04.799 --> 00:13:08.190 and, you know. companies like such as Danfoss, 00:13:08.230 --> 00:13:09.629 but for installers too, right? Because they're 00:13:09.629 --> 00:13:11.169 not used to dealing with any refrigerants that 00:13:11.169 --> 00:13:14.529 are flammable at all, right? So in that case, 00:13:14.529 --> 00:13:17.389 they have to make sure they service the system 00:13:17.389 --> 00:13:20.350 properly, that they don't cause any sparks, things 00:13:20.350 --> 00:13:22.230 like that. But then there's also additional components 00:13:22.230 --> 00:13:24.860 like... gas detection sensors that weren't there 00:13:24.860 --> 00:13:26.960 before for you know refrigerant systems that 00:13:26.960 --> 00:13:29.000 they're used to so there there's that level of 00:13:29.000 --> 00:13:31.340 complexity itself that just came you know naturally 00:13:31.340 --> 00:13:33.860 because of the the gwp uh you know dropped to 00:13:33.860 --> 00:13:36.600 700 so that's kind of phase one i think and i 00:13:36.600 --> 00:13:38.779 think contractors are really starting to you 00:13:38.779 --> 00:13:40.240 know they're learning it now right but there 00:13:40.240 --> 00:13:43.279 is you know a lot of you know maybe not initial 00:13:43.279 --> 00:13:45.259 pushback but for sure a lot of new learnings 00:13:45.259 --> 00:13:47.600 that came about that from the systems but yeah 00:13:47.600 --> 00:13:50.769 as we move towards which you know extra level 00:13:50.769 --> 00:13:52.529 complexity which is the heat pumps which you 00:13:52.529 --> 00:13:53.929 know traditionally you know a lot of systems 00:13:53.929 --> 00:13:56.090 had you know heat pump that would run in some 00:13:56.090 --> 00:13:58.570 climates then you have gas heater natural gas 00:13:58.570 --> 00:14:00.450 or whatever to switch over to kind of a second 00:14:00.450 --> 00:14:03.330 source but in some cases now that's not going 00:14:03.330 --> 00:14:04.750 to happen right it's going to be a heat pump 00:14:04.750 --> 00:14:07.490 or for nothing essentially so then then it's 00:14:07.490 --> 00:14:09.190 really essential to make sure that when they're 00:14:09.190 --> 00:14:10.830 you know when they're servicing the system that 00:14:10.830 --> 00:14:12.850 they're you know checking the refrigerant charge 00:14:12.850 --> 00:14:14.669 checking the sub cooling making sure the components 00:14:14.669 --> 00:14:17.080 are all you know operating correctly going through 00:14:17.080 --> 00:14:20.320 all the controls because otherwise you know it's 00:14:20.320 --> 00:14:22.340 going to be a nightmare for contractors right 00:14:22.340 --> 00:14:24.139 so it's going to be a lot of new learnings that 00:14:24.139 --> 00:14:26.019 happen and for danfoss you know we try to do 00:14:26.019 --> 00:14:27.480 you know a lot of these webinars things like 00:14:27.480 --> 00:14:29.580 that to get our you know get the voice out there 00:14:29.580 --> 00:14:31.860 we meet with a lot of contractors distributors 00:14:31.860 --> 00:14:35.500 we have a you know a good pretty good um kind 00:14:35.500 --> 00:14:37.600 of portfolio of software with our cool selector 00:14:37.600 --> 00:14:39.299 program where they can go in and see kind of 00:14:39.740 --> 00:14:42.139 how the systems are built we have component recommendations 00:14:42.139 --> 00:14:44.879 for you know economizers valves for new systems 00:14:44.879 --> 00:14:46.960 but you know they could also you know look and 00:14:46.960 --> 00:14:48.600 see how the systems are you know piped together 00:14:48.600 --> 00:14:50.259 and all that stuff in there you kind of see how 00:14:50.259 --> 00:14:52.299 it all works together so i think we're you know 00:14:52.299 --> 00:14:54.159 we're trying to do a lot to kind of educate the 00:14:54.159 --> 00:14:58.080 industry there yeah and i really i really am 00:14:58.080 --> 00:15:00.039 grateful for the opportunity because there's 00:15:00.039 --> 00:15:04.289 a We've been calling it an evolution of education 00:15:04.289 --> 00:15:08.490 here at ESCO because of these changes. And we've 00:15:08.490 --> 00:15:13.009 seen a outreach from the manufacturers and because 00:15:13.009 --> 00:15:15.730 Dan Foss is a manufacturer, but you're also a 00:15:15.730 --> 00:15:20.870 distributor for equipment manufacturers. So you're 00:15:20.870 --> 00:15:24.730 playing a couple of parts, right? So you're trying 00:15:24.730 --> 00:15:28.730 to educate the equipment manufacturers on what 00:15:28.730 --> 00:15:30.860 products and what applications work. the best. 00:15:30.899 --> 00:15:34.039 Then you're also trying to help the contractor 00:15:34.039 --> 00:15:36.620 and the technicians understand that component 00:15:36.620 --> 00:15:40.299 of the entire product. And it's a lot. It's a 00:15:40.299 --> 00:15:42.600 lot of education and training to get out there. 00:15:42.659 --> 00:15:44.659 But we have seen that this year in particular. 00:15:44.919 --> 00:15:48.399 We've seen our component manufacturers and our 00:15:48.399 --> 00:15:51.519 equipment manufacturers being very diligent about 00:15:51.519 --> 00:15:55.159 getting the information and the education out 00:15:55.159 --> 00:15:58.590 to the industry. At least I feel that that's 00:15:58.590 --> 00:16:00.570 the way that we're going to be successful in 00:16:00.570 --> 00:16:02.570 these transitions. Yeah, exactly. I mean, that's 00:16:02.570 --> 00:16:04.049 the only way it's going to work, right? Because, 00:16:04.049 --> 00:16:06.070 I mean, we can't, you know, we can supply the 00:16:06.070 --> 00:16:08.549 components and, you know, educate how to set 00:16:08.549 --> 00:16:10.389 the system up and go over the controls and all 00:16:10.389 --> 00:16:13.190 those things. But once the unit is sold from, 00:16:13.230 --> 00:16:15.389 you know, whoever to, you know, a distributor 00:16:15.389 --> 00:16:18.210 or installer or contractor, then, you know, they 00:16:18.210 --> 00:16:19.710 need to know how to run the system, right? How 00:16:19.710 --> 00:16:21.730 to do the startup, how to do the service on it 00:16:21.730 --> 00:16:23.269 and all that kind of things. Otherwise, it's 00:16:23.269 --> 00:16:25.490 going to become, you know, a nightmare for everybody, 00:16:25.549 --> 00:16:27.750 basically. You know, it's going to be, you know 00:16:27.750 --> 00:16:31.169 parts that are no fault found systems that aren't 00:16:31.169 --> 00:16:33.090 operating correctly that become then less efficient 00:16:33.090 --> 00:16:35.889 than systems that we already have today so you 00:16:35.889 --> 00:16:37.750 know there's a there's a lot of pieces of the 00:16:37.750 --> 00:16:39.129 puzzle that kind of have to come together to 00:16:39.129 --> 00:16:40.649 make sure all you know these systems are set 00:16:40.649 --> 00:16:44.580 up correctly yeah exactly that's a You hit on 00:16:44.580 --> 00:16:46.720 something that's a very significant part of our 00:16:46.720 --> 00:16:49.960 industry. Technicians and contractors often wonder, 00:16:50.059 --> 00:16:52.980 well, why do these prices keep escalating? And 00:16:52.980 --> 00:16:55.100 one of the things that I have seen by going to 00:16:55.100 --> 00:16:57.519 a variety of different compressor manufacturers 00:16:57.519 --> 00:17:00.919 is a significant amount of compressors that come 00:17:00.919 --> 00:17:03.919 back under warranty or under replacement are 00:17:03.919 --> 00:17:06.980 of no fault found, indicating that there were 00:17:06.980 --> 00:17:09.480 other things happening within the system that 00:17:09.480 --> 00:17:13.000 was causing a scenario that the technician would 00:17:13.039 --> 00:17:17.180 witnessed and they jumped to a conclusion of 00:17:17.180 --> 00:17:21.259 say a compressor being bad. And so understanding 00:17:21.259 --> 00:17:24.420 that sequence of operation, it's so important. 00:17:24.559 --> 00:17:27.759 We did an electrical sequence of operation show 00:17:27.759 --> 00:17:30.940 on our live show last week. And that's what we're 00:17:30.940 --> 00:17:33.140 doing is just helping people understand an electrical 00:17:33.140 --> 00:17:35.769 sequence of operation. Because when we start 00:17:35.769 --> 00:17:38.230 looking at our modern refrigeration circuit, 00:17:38.390 --> 00:17:41.710 there is a significant amount of electrical sequence 00:17:41.710 --> 00:17:44.190 of operation going into it as well. Think about 00:17:44.190 --> 00:17:49.349 this economizer product, a brace plate heat exchanger 00:17:49.349 --> 00:17:52.230 with a metering device. It's an electronic expansion 00:17:52.230 --> 00:17:55.890 valve. So realistically, we're going to have 00:17:55.890 --> 00:17:58.950 two electronic expansion valves. If it's a heat 00:17:58.950 --> 00:18:02.450 pump, potentially three that we're going to need 00:18:02.450 --> 00:18:05.960 to understand how. they operate and their importance 00:18:05.960 --> 00:18:09.240 within the system as well as the troubleshooting 00:18:09.240 --> 00:18:11.839 absolutely yeah yeah i mean the complexity of 00:18:11.839 --> 00:18:14.000 systems from you know now to 10 years ago is 00:18:14.000 --> 00:18:16.380 i mean it's it's so you know exponentially higher 00:18:16.380 --> 00:18:19.359 than it was you know we have variable speed fans 00:18:19.359 --> 00:18:21.799 instead of fixed speeds fixed being you know 00:18:21.799 --> 00:18:24.500 went from mechanical to electrical expansion 00:18:24.500 --> 00:18:26.680 valves you know all these different new new components 00:18:26.680 --> 00:18:28.359 and you know it's as you mentioned you know the 00:18:28.359 --> 00:18:31.190 controls point or uh portion is is the key right 00:18:31.190 --> 00:18:33.069 because we don't want to become we don't want 00:18:33.069 --> 00:18:35.069 tech technicians to become just part changers 00:18:35.069 --> 00:18:36.349 right i mean they're going to have to do some 00:18:36.349 --> 00:18:38.670 diagnostics to figure out kind of what's working 00:18:38.670 --> 00:18:40.849 what's not working before you know they just 00:18:40.849 --> 00:18:43.009 start to you know kind of pulling pieces out 00:18:43.009 --> 00:18:44.849 and putting new pieces in so there's a lot of 00:18:44.849 --> 00:18:46.750 you know a lot of things that need to happen 00:18:46.750 --> 00:18:48.750 there as far as the training goes i know there's 00:18:48.750 --> 00:18:50.250 a lot of organizations as well that do a lot 00:18:50.250 --> 00:18:51.690 of that training that are you know kind of keeping 00:18:51.690 --> 00:18:54.529 the industry but I mean, there's going to always 00:18:54.529 --> 00:18:56.049 be some challenges from some of the, you know, 00:18:56.049 --> 00:18:58.109 the really small OEMs that just don't have, or 00:18:58.109 --> 00:18:59.890 the contractors and installers that just don't 00:18:59.890 --> 00:19:02.170 have the kind of the bandwidth to do these, you 00:19:02.170 --> 00:19:03.750 know, large scale training programs. So I think 00:19:03.750 --> 00:19:05.329 that's going to be key to kind of making this 00:19:05.329 --> 00:19:07.490 heat pump transition, you know, a big success 00:19:07.490 --> 00:19:09.809 in the future. So I think we still have a ways 00:19:09.809 --> 00:19:12.289 to go because it's, you know, it's a, heat pumps 00:19:12.289 --> 00:19:14.490 aren't new, right? But they're new in cold climates 00:19:14.490 --> 00:19:18.539 for most of contractors today. I agree. That's 00:19:18.539 --> 00:19:20.680 why we've been doing these short, you know, 20 00:19:20.680 --> 00:19:24.180 minute or so podcast. And we hope that Dan Foss 00:19:24.180 --> 00:19:26.819 comes back and does some troubleshooting diagnostic 00:19:26.819 --> 00:19:29.480 classes with us, because this is the point. The 00:19:29.480 --> 00:19:32.500 technician in between jobs typically has about 00:19:32.500 --> 00:19:35.059 20 minutes, 20 to 30 minutes in between calls. 00:19:35.400 --> 00:19:37.920 And we can start getting the information out 00:19:37.920 --> 00:19:41.920 there in bite sized chunks, helping them make 00:19:41.920 --> 00:19:45.240 this transition possible one road trip at a time, 00:19:45.299 --> 00:19:49.140 all at a time. I think we'll get through it comfortably 00:19:49.140 --> 00:19:52.220 because even myself as a technician, I have been 00:19:52.220 --> 00:19:57.200 exploring the different products that vapor injection 00:19:57.200 --> 00:19:59.460 and liquid injection are going into. Can you 00:19:59.460 --> 00:20:02.119 tell me, like, are we going to see this in all 00:20:02.119 --> 00:20:04.460 refrigeration products and all HVAC products 00:20:04.460 --> 00:20:07.940 going forward? Is it a matter of time? Potentially. 00:20:07.980 --> 00:20:10.299 So it's for sure, cold climate heat pumps, that's 00:20:10.299 --> 00:20:12.339 a given, right? It's going to be there. There's 00:20:12.339 --> 00:20:14.480 just no way to get to, you know, these operating 00:20:14.480 --> 00:20:16.220 conditions that we need without vapor injection 00:20:16.220 --> 00:20:18.279 or liquid injection. So that's for sure going 00:20:18.279 --> 00:20:19.819 to happen. I think we're going to see it in some 00:20:19.819 --> 00:20:22.200 cases for cooling, maybe cooling only applications 00:20:22.200 --> 00:20:25.420 where, okay, say the OEM already has a system 00:20:25.420 --> 00:20:27.599 designed, but then the government changes an 00:20:27.599 --> 00:20:29.839 efficiency metric and increases, you know, full 00:20:29.839 --> 00:20:32.500 load or part load, something like that. And then 00:20:32.500 --> 00:20:34.710 they can potentially maybe add, you know, vapor 00:20:34.710 --> 00:20:36.829 injection you know called subsystem into the 00:20:36.829 --> 00:20:38.809 unit and then get maybe where they need to go 00:20:38.809 --> 00:20:40.730 to meet the next rating level for so i think 00:20:40.730 --> 00:20:43.269 we may see some of that there um i think we're 00:20:43.269 --> 00:20:45.549 also going to see some systems that okay i know 00:20:45.549 --> 00:20:48.190 em builds you know any cooling only unit or heat 00:20:48.190 --> 00:20:49.869 pump unit so it's kind of going to be a mix and 00:20:49.869 --> 00:20:51.769 match type solution so i think we'll see you 00:20:51.769 --> 00:20:54.230 know some compressors that you know maybe they 00:20:54.230 --> 00:20:57.029 build a system that has a compressor that's set 00:20:57.029 --> 00:20:58.829 up for vapor injection but then they don't use 00:20:58.829 --> 00:21:00.569 it right so they just have the port that's closed 00:21:00.569 --> 00:21:02.710 off so right i think we'll see in some cases 00:21:02.710 --> 00:21:05.579 where that happens too In refrigeration, we're 00:21:05.579 --> 00:21:08.440 going to see it for low temp refrigeration applications 00:21:08.440 --> 00:21:10.200 pay too well. So that's going to be out there. 00:21:10.839 --> 00:21:13.160 So, I mean, it's going to be pretty much, it's 00:21:13.160 --> 00:21:14.799 going to be all over the place, right? But it's 00:21:14.799 --> 00:21:16.720 for sure not something that it's going to be, 00:21:16.720 --> 00:21:18.720 you know, seeing less in the market. It's only 00:21:18.720 --> 00:21:21.000 going to be more and more common. I mean, it's 00:21:21.000 --> 00:21:22.680 already out there quite a bit, right? If you 00:21:22.680 --> 00:21:24.480 look at, you know, large chillers, things like 00:21:24.480 --> 00:21:26.819 that, they already have economized systems on 00:21:26.819 --> 00:21:29.240 there. So that's already there today. but now 00:21:29.240 --> 00:21:31.400 we're really starting to transition into rooftops 00:21:31.400 --> 00:21:33.480 you know residential units a lot of areas where 00:21:33.480 --> 00:21:35.400 we just typically didn't see that before so i 00:21:35.400 --> 00:21:36.660 think that's going to be where the main push 00:21:36.660 --> 00:21:41.089 comes from Yeah, I've been exploring the different 00:21:41.089 --> 00:21:42.990 products in the residential realm because I've 00:21:42.990 --> 00:21:46.230 seen a lot of them in that high performance heat 00:21:46.230 --> 00:21:48.869 pump for commercial applications where Danfoss 00:21:48.869 --> 00:21:52.930 plays a major role. And so I was exploring like 00:21:52.930 --> 00:21:55.410 in the residential, how many offerings do we 00:21:55.410 --> 00:21:57.650 have? And so I actually just completed a couple 00:21:57.650 --> 00:22:01.849 of weeks ago installation of a cold climate ductless 00:22:01.849 --> 00:22:07.799 heat pump for an application for myself. To compare 00:22:07.799 --> 00:22:11.619 the difference between a standard operating refrigeration 00:22:11.619 --> 00:22:15.240 system and one that uses vapor injection, many 00:22:15.240 --> 00:22:19.200 ductless units will only go down to about 5 degrees 00:22:19.200 --> 00:22:22.180 Fahrenheit. A traditional refrigeration system, 00:22:22.359 --> 00:22:24.240 about 5 degrees Fahrenheit, and many of them 00:22:24.240 --> 00:22:26.880 have hard lockouts at 5 degrees because they 00:22:26.880 --> 00:22:31.839 just can't handle the compressor envelope. It 00:22:31.839 --> 00:22:34.420 just isn't designed for it. So with this particular 00:22:34.420 --> 00:22:38.900 application, this was a 12 ,000 BTU ductless 00:22:38.900 --> 00:22:43.599 heat pump that because of the technology itself 00:22:43.599 --> 00:22:48.099 has 100 % capacity at five degrees, but then 00:22:48.099 --> 00:22:50.980 starts introducing the vapor injection and actually 00:22:50.980 --> 00:22:55.119 has 100 % capacity at minus five degrees and 00:22:55.119 --> 00:22:59.559 still has capacity down to minus 22 degrees Fahrenheit. 00:23:00.380 --> 00:23:03.460 That's unheard of. Yeah, I mean, that's where 00:23:03.460 --> 00:23:05.599 we are now with our technology. And in fact, 00:23:05.619 --> 00:23:07.839 some of the compressors we have, they'll run 00:23:07.839 --> 00:23:10.339 down to about minus 40 evaporating. So depending 00:23:10.339 --> 00:23:12.839 on what your, you know, the T is, you could be 00:23:12.839 --> 00:23:14.740 maybe even run down to minus 30 degrees Fahrenheit, 00:23:14.779 --> 00:23:16.859 something like that. So that's what we're talking 00:23:16.859 --> 00:23:20.079 about. Yeah, it's crazy. So you can service most 00:23:20.079 --> 00:23:22.400 of the, you know, Canada, you know, northern 00:23:22.400 --> 00:23:24.859 parts of North America. So, yeah, I mean, that's 00:23:24.859 --> 00:23:27.319 really where we're getting. The main challenge 00:23:27.319 --> 00:23:28.759 when you get those cold climates then becomes 00:23:28.759 --> 00:23:31.299 the defrost, right? Right. you know that's that's 00:23:31.299 --> 00:23:33.759 kind of where the main drawback is but um yeah 00:23:33.759 --> 00:23:36.140 for sure the compressors the map is so wide that 00:23:36.140 --> 00:23:38.480 these things can operate you know almost everywhere 00:23:38.480 --> 00:23:42.799 now um yeah i've been seeing commercial refrigeration 00:23:42.799 --> 00:23:45.680 or commercial heat pumps installed in alaska 00:23:45.680 --> 00:23:48.920 yeah and if they can work there they can work 00:23:48.920 --> 00:23:51.859 anywhere yeah and a lot of it came from uh as 00:23:51.859 --> 00:23:53.880 well from the the department of energy had some 00:23:53.880 --> 00:23:55.539 challenges right for cold climate heat pumps 00:23:55.539 --> 00:23:59.539 for residential units comes also so it's kind 00:23:59.539 --> 00:24:01.400 of really pushing a lot of these oems to see 00:24:01.400 --> 00:24:04.660 okay how low can we go and then okay what's going 00:24:04.660 --> 00:24:06.619 to be you know acceptable to the market you know 00:24:06.619 --> 00:24:09.480 as well so um because you know there's of course 00:24:09.480 --> 00:24:11.420 some you know some cost tradebacks from a heat 00:24:11.420 --> 00:24:14.059 pump versus you know you know furnace and other 00:24:14.059 --> 00:24:16.940 technologies as well so you bet i think i think 00:24:16.940 --> 00:24:18.539 a lot of that's the market still trying to figure 00:24:18.539 --> 00:24:21.180 out for sure kind of see you know how do we differentiate 00:24:21.180 --> 00:24:24.230 our product our product do we have you know a 00:24:24.230 --> 00:24:26.569 heat pump and then a second tier two or would 00:24:26.569 --> 00:24:28.490 be a cold climate heat pump and then maybe we 00:24:28.490 --> 00:24:30.130 have another that's a heat pump with a hybrid 00:24:30.130 --> 00:24:32.470 you know backup source of heat so there's a lot 00:24:32.470 --> 00:24:35.049 of a lot of ways now to differentiate differentiated 00:24:35.049 --> 00:24:38.470 products well nick where can we learn more about 00:24:38.470 --> 00:24:43.589 dan foss especially in the economizing and the 00:24:43.589 --> 00:24:48.349 low temp vapor injection applications Yeah. You 00:24:48.349 --> 00:24:50.710 can probably find anything on Google nowadays 00:24:50.710 --> 00:24:53.349 or through AI, for sure, any web -based stuff. 00:24:53.589 --> 00:24:56.789 As I mentioned, we have a selection program called 00:24:56.789 --> 00:24:59.049 CoolSelector that's free to download. You just 00:24:59.049 --> 00:25:01.849 type it in, it'll pop right up. Then you can 00:25:01.849 --> 00:25:04.190 select whatever compressor that you want and 00:25:04.190 --> 00:25:06.890 it'll pull up the application guidelines and 00:25:06.890 --> 00:25:09.369 it'll go through, of course, all the performance 00:25:09.369 --> 00:25:11.150 information that's needed, but it'll also show 00:25:11.150 --> 00:25:13.829 you the system architecture, so how the components 00:25:13.829 --> 00:25:16.670 are piped together. what heat exchangers, what 00:25:16.670 --> 00:25:18.829 valves we recommend for what compressors, you 00:25:18.829 --> 00:25:20.309 know, kind of all that stuff that you need as 00:25:20.309 --> 00:25:22.769 well. So that's a really good resource and that's 00:25:22.769 --> 00:25:26.289 free. Anybody can download it. LinkedIn, of course, 00:25:26.349 --> 00:25:28.329 we have, you know, lots of podcasts and things 00:25:28.329 --> 00:25:30.190 like that for day projection. I'm sure we'll 00:25:30.190 --> 00:25:32.390 probably have many, many more as the years go 00:25:32.390 --> 00:25:34.789 on to kind of introduce everybody in more detail. 00:25:34.910 --> 00:25:37.089 But yeah, I think we try to do our best to get 00:25:37.089 --> 00:25:39.029 the message out to the market. So looking forward 00:25:39.029 --> 00:25:40.869 to just kind of building on that and keeping 00:25:40.869 --> 00:25:44.220 it going in the future. Awesome. Well, Nick Mislak, 00:25:44.299 --> 00:25:46.019 I really appreciate you joining us. I think we're 00:25:46.019 --> 00:25:48.660 going to have to call this podcast. How low can 00:25:48.660 --> 00:25:53.180 we go? Well, thank you so much. And you have 00:25:53.180 --> 00:25:55.299 a wonderful day. We appreciate you joining. Appreciate 00:25:55.299 --> 00:25:55.859 it. Thank you very much.