Welcome to Did You Know, the ESCO HVAC podcast,
the show where we explore the cool, the hot,
and the everything in between of the HVACR industry.
Each week, we dig into the innovations, the insights,
and the inspiring stories that power our trade,
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Training. Supporting HVAC and refrigeration instructors.
As well as the United Association of Journeymen
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Industry of the United States and Canada. Built
on excellence since 1889. Whether you're just
getting started or you've been turning wrenches
for decades like myself, there's always something
new for us to learn. I'm Clifton Beck, and this
is Did You Know? The ESCO HVAC Podcast. Let's
dive in. Hello, everyone. Thank you so much for
joining Did You Know? The ESCO HVAC Podcast.
We've been spending a lot of time talking about
transitions that we're making with equipment,
with refrigerants, and sometimes we'll talk about
the regulations and the driving forces behind
that. So today we're spending some time with
Audie Cash. How are you, sir? Hey, good to see
you. Good to be here. How are you? I'm doing
wonderful. I think I'm just about as confused
as everybody else in the industry. Join the party.
Yeah. We're all trying to stay up to date and
we're trying to look for the right resources
to make sure we understand how regulations and
codes are changing, not just the installation
environment, but even the whole manufacturing
side. And, you know, you and I were kind of discussing
some of the regulations that's driving this.
We've got a lot of ASHRAE committees and subcommittees.
And we have guidelines and we have regulations
and some of that getting moved into codes. And
we have some areas that have not updated their
codes. And it's kind of a mess. It's complicated.
I'll agree with you. Yeah. But when you have
the right sources and you have the people that
are dedicated to breaking it down and understanding
it, There's a lot of partnerships being made
in the industry right now with professionals
who are trying to sort through and understand
and share content. And that's very much what
you've been doing for the last couple of years.
So let's, I guess we can start on things. Let's
just start on things like 90 .1 or 62. Let's
talk about some of the guiding forces within
our industry and what's shaping those. Yeah,
your opening statement is true. There's a lot
going on, and it feels like it can be like a
word and number soup if you're kind of new to
it or if you're kind of coming in and out, depending
upon where you are in the design cycle for projects.
One of the things that we've been spending a
lot of time on is understanding how 90 .1, which
is really energy and energy code, drive decision
-making for building efficiency. Yes. And how
the ventilation standards are trying to keep
up with these energy objectives. And you do have
challenges in certain markets and states in particular
where the mechanical code or the energy code
are kind of out of sync. ASHRAE does progress
these forward in a purposeful way to try to help
designers achieve higher and greater building
designs and better building efficiencies. Right.
But if they're out of sync, it can be even harder.
But that's why. We see some states progressing
their mechanical codes now. About 20 states have
adopted the 2019 version of their 62 .1, which
is a ventilation, so that we're catching up.
But that's a lot of states left. And I think
in the end, a designer that's trying to design
a building has got a lot of decisions to make.
The mechanical code and the standards are the
first place that they will go to to get good
insights, I think. Yeah. And I think a lot of
the industry is unaware of the fact that across
the country, we have standards and codes that
do not follow consistency. And when we think
about that, like we're talking about adopting
2019 standards, six -year -old standards, just
now thinking about adopting 2019 standards. And
so when we think about what's changed even since
2019, there's been a lot just in the last couple
of years. And so we have manufacturers and engineers
that are really struggling with how do I build
products that will be universally accepted and
can fit some of these variety of different codes?
And that's a difficult thing to do when you're
a manufacturer, I can assume. Oh, it really is.
I think if anybody's ever played hockey before,
they know they want to skate to where the puck
is heading. I think that's the hardest part because,
you know, by the time you design a product, launch
a product, things are going to change. And if
you're designing for the 2019 version, eventually
2022, 2025 will come along. And so you want to
be as broad as possible. The good news is a lot
of products that are in development are focused
on energy efficiency. I think that trend started.
And as long as you're focused more on energy
efficiency, lower watts to do the same amount
of work. you're moving in the right direction
broadly because we know that's what 90 .1 is
really driving us to is lower watts per square
foot in a design. And so alternative technologies,
and we've seen the popularity of DOAS systems
or what we call decoupled systems, which obviously
drive a lot of energy savings. And you see what
we're driving towards is the indoor air quality
procedure, which is reducing outdoor air by adding
air cleaning, which of course can be a substantial
savings because outdoor air. can be up to 40
% of a building's energy use, right? I'm sorry,
of an HVAC system's use. So that's a lot of opportunity.
Yeah, absolutely. I just came back from an equipment
manufacturer technical training. So I spent a
week with Bosch as they're making this transition
with the Johnson Controls and Hitachi team. And
even looking at their technical training center
that they have, their Ducted Systems Academy
out in Norman, Oklahoma, we were talking about
what equipment that they were bringing in. They're
like, well, that whole corner over there is going
to be DOAS equipment because now we have to really
start focusing on where can we educate on energy
reduction and what What type of systems can be
implemented that will focus on that? And so they're
lining up an entirely new realm of DOAS just
because of things like this. So where are we
in the industry and where are we headed? Yeah.
So I think big picture, we are continuing to
move forward with energy efficiency as a primary
goal. Carbon reduction, which I think was more
popular, maybe less so in the last couple of
years, isn't really going away. whether it's
municipalities, some states, or even end users.
It's just good practice. And I think where we're
really going as an industry is to find the way
to intersect between good energy efficiency and
good return on investment. Am I applying my dollars
in a practical way for efficient HVAC equipment?
The reason decoupled systems have become so popular
and DOAS systems have become so popular is because
they do ventilation fairly well, fairly cost
-effectively. And it reduces an indoor air quality
concern, which is often too much moisture in
a design or too much humidity. Building pressurization
and moisture management is a big commercial concern.
And so as these pieces of equipment become better,
more sophisticated, able to lower the moisture
content in the air as it gets delivered to a
space, you get better designs, better, more efficient
designs. And that's why I think that investment
in that area and really all going to this idea
of ventilation being an HVAC being the number
one concern. from an energy perspective. So do
that really well. See, the lighting industry
went to LED and suddenly they stopped. They were
the bad guys for a while. Like the biggest watts
per square foot were lights. Oh, not anymore.
So HVAC is sort of in the crosshairs as the leading
energy consumer. And so the idea of seeking strategies
or equipment that drive efficiency is not going
to be going away anytime soon. We don't see major
leap. You don't see major technology leaps, right?
25 % reduction in HVAC load, that's not a thing.
Physics doesn't really allow us to do that. So
we just try to find better ways to ventilate
and condition buildings for these tighter sort
of energy times. Yeah, I believe exactly what
you're saying. I believe that we are making that
transition right now to focusing on the efficiency
of the structure from the HVAC perspective. I
just did a complete training series for a very
large utility on the West Coast. Because they've
spent the last decade focusing all of their training
efforts on LED light conversions. Sure. And they
have determined that they have been successful
with this 10 -year campaign. And so now they're
moving all of their efforts into education on
building performance as well as equipment performance.
And there's going to be a balance of understanding
how to do that. Because in the commercial realm,
We have a lot of regulations on air management,
infiltration, understanding how much. external
air to bring into a structure. We're working
on that in residential. We have some areas that
are already moving forward with their own requirements
for fresh air based on the tightness of the home.
So the residential realm, which a lot of our
audience today, and we're glad that everyone's
joining us from the residential sector. We do
have some commercial technicians as well joining
us. We have engineers. And I'm wanting particularly
our residential consumers to understand that
We're moving into a place where it's going to
be required for you to understand the quality
of the air and the structure and how to, like
you were saying, reduce some of that air that
you're bringing in because of the amount of energy
it costs to not just bring it in, but then to
treat it. Like any air we're bringing in, we're
going to have to dehumidify, we're going to have
to temper. So how can we do a better job working
with the air that we have? And that's really
been your focus for the last few years. Yeah,
spot on. You know, I think the transition on
the commercial side will be a lot of conversations
about ventilation and making sure ventilation
is appropriately. balanced with the needs of
the space. And one of the best areas you can
do that is to balance your outdoor air with indoor
air cleaning. And the one thing that ASHRAE has
supported for 20 years or more, and frankly,
doesn't get enough adoption, is this idea of
balancing outdoor air and air cleaning so that
you can reduce outdoor air, which will lead to
sort of, I would say, incredible equipment savings,
return on investment, those kinds of things.
And in any existing structure, especially older
buildings, bringing in more outdoor air may not
even be easy to do. Like you almost literally
have to make a bigger hole in the building. And
that doesn't go over well. It drives cost, right?
And I think as you point out, Clifton, in people's
homes, indoor air quality is sort of an afterthought.
We think about temperature. We think of humidity.
Maybe those are the things that we feel comfortable
at home. But one of the things that we're trying
to move forward to your point is how well is
your system or how well is your home ventilated?
And so we're bringing more and more air quality
monitoring, measuring and responsiveness even
into homes. It used to be, I'd say that's mostly
a commercial thought process, but it's not that
expensive anymore. The cost of sensors, like
the miniaturization of sensors and sensing technology
is right here today. And so homeowners can be
informed. The one thing that we've been talking
about, and we haven't frankly launched it yet,
but this is early days for us. But one of the
things we've been talking about is. Making a
third number. People pay attention to temperature.
They pay attention to humidity. But what about
your indoor air quality score? How good is your
air? How good is the air? I agree. And it's frankly
not hard to do. And as we've done studies out
in the real world with real people's homes, it's
disturbingly bad at times and people don't know.
So we will see some major progress, I think.
Particularly if you look at ventilation. Yeah,
well, we look at the quality of the air outdoors.
It's not like the air that we had, you know,
50 or 60 years ago where we preferred bringing
in all of our outside air. You know, and many
times we're talking about, you know, manufacturing
environments. We're talking about commercial
buildings that are in high volume areas and that
outside air may not be as. good as what we would
think that it is. And, you know, many parts of
the world, particularly if you look at the Asian
homeowners, it's a norm to have indoor air monitoring
so that they understand how to better treat the
air internally. And that's, you're right. It's
just now starting to become more of a standard.
I've been working with a lot of OEMs as well
as third -party companies in the industry that
are, you know, very much about System performance.
And it's intriguing the amount of conversations
that start out as system performance that lead
directly into air performance. You know, air
is a driving force behind our comfort, no matter
whether you're a ducted system or a ductless
system. And so the air that we're moving, it's
critical to understand what is that condition.
We always talk about we're in the job of moving
heat and we're in the air conditioning business.
Well, what are we conditioning? And I think it's
important that we understand what we're actually
working with before we try to treat. It's kind
of like a doctor, you know, someone going into
a doctor's office and going, I don't feel good.
A doctor says, let's just throw everything at
you and hope that you feel better. Good luck
with that approach. Well, that'll cost you a
lot. I think it will cost you a lot and sometimes
creates, you know, byproducts that are even more
toxic than the original conditions. And so when
the when the cure is worse than the disease.
Right. So. so i will i will just to play on your
your comment a little bit i think that there's
something really interesting about this idea
of urbanization and living in cities and living
uh where it's convenient to walk versus drive
and like there's a lot of that going on a lot
of people live in um in more densely urban environments
particularly throughout the world but in the
united states increasingly cities are one of
the one of the challenges around air quality.
We have ozone alert days. We have other PM, you
know, so particulate matter. And this has been
a common thread, I'd say, over the past two years
of any article I see on air quality. We focus
on particles, and that's really important. Particles,
PM 2 .5, those are the 2 .5 microns or smaller.
PM 1, really, you know, one micron, like these
ultrafines, are about 70 % of the health concerns
come from those kinds of particles in our breathing
zone. So if you think about 80 -20, 70 % come
from particles. The next bit comes from something
like formaldehyde, which is a building material
off gas. These things are not easy to manage.
They're invisible to see. But it starts with
good equipment maintenance. It starts with good
filtration in your home, especially if you live
in an urban environment. And so you look at these
particles, and they're really supposed to be
captured by good filters. But how well is it
working? It's hard to know. And now we're bringing,
I think, more and more sensing to that conversation
so that you can see it and make good decisions.
But anyway, I digress a little bit, but I think
the whole concept of air quality and measuring
for the contaminants that matter is what ASHRAE
is moving us towards. So, you know, we talked
about earlier about the 62 .1 in 2019 and the
mechanical codes. since 2019 i don't know if
anybody's been paying attention there was a global
pandemic so like the whole hvac world kind of
got turned on its head because part of the reason
why the pathogen gets spread in a building is
because we move air right right so so we had
to get better as a business better as an industry
and we did and those so there's been updates
in 2022 and 2025 and all i can say is that the
standards um for residential 62 .2 and 62 .1
for commercial have large amounts of information
in them now focused on indoor air quality. And
that procedure, which focuses on managing particles
and these gases that are impossible to see. And
all I can say is, if you follow the procedure,
you'll have healthier indoor air. And we just
want to make that visible and visual to people
so they can make good decisions. It's really
an opportunity, and it does directly impact a
lot of people's lives, right? Yeah. You know,
I think about the homes that we're building.
You know, we always think about a newer home
being a cleaner environment, being a fresher,
a more fresh environment, you know, because we're
making them so tight. The home that I'm in, it's
now five years old. We moved into it new. One
of the first things I did was start looking at
air monitors. And so I have a couple of different
air monitors that I have worked with from manufacturers,
tool manufacturers and test manufacturers. And
we were very intrigued when we started looking
at the air quality indoors, recognizing that
our indoor air quality was significantly worse
than our outdoor air. A lot of off gassing. We
had a lot of contamination. And so we have to
really change our mindset and think about construction
trends that have changed. We always talk about,
oh, we need better windows. We need better doors.
We need tighter homes. We need less infiltration.
We need better vapor barriers. But in that process,
we are. we're removing a lot of that cleaner
air or fresh air in many cases that we used to
rely on in a home. So it's critical that we understand
the standards for that. I know that it's not
required in our residential applications yet,
but at least we have some of our ASHRAE standards
that are leaning us into that. And we do have
jurisdictions that are now requiring us to bring
in fresh air and to treat it in homes that are
too tight and need that additional ventilation.
Yeah, you know, so this is the example of efficiency
is driving a secondary effect that may not be
what we intended, right? So building efficiency,
home energy efficiency seals the building up
tight. And while we've kept the outdoor out,
which is generally, you know, sometimes a good
thing, right? Especially from a temperature and
humidity perspective and wildlife, I guess. But
as you do that, you have to kind of look in the
mirror and realize you're the number one contaminant
of your air. The activities that we partake in,
even just digestion and respiration. We do pollute
our own indoor air. We are the leading cause
of pollutant in the home, by the way. And of
course, if you have dogs and cats and kids and,
you know, you have them all look in the mirror
because they're part of the problem. And so ventilation
and doing it efficiently is really key and bringing
in outdoor air and exchanging outdoor air. You
know, so like bathroom exhaust fans help with
this process. Right. So the 62 .1, the latest,
I'm sorry, 62 .2, the latest residential standard
from ASHRAE does include pretty hearty guidelines
on indoor air quality and how to manage that
better in your home. I know it's not required
by code anywhere, but if I were building a home
tomorrow, I would certainly break the code out
and spend some time looking with my HVAC technician
saying, what would it cost me to do X, Y, or
Z? And some of it's temperature, humidity, for
sure. Some of it's ventilation and doing. energy
recovery ventilation is a is a reasonable approach
my brother who lives in minnesota does that in
his home they just built a new home um and so
you know they want that you know they have several
kids in their house they want good air quality
and they don't want the energy bill necessarily
to open a window right right so there's so especially
in minnesota in the winter and so there's a good
balancing act that can be struck here uh when
you look at the guidance and the and the direction
that the the ashtray standards can bring to you
Yeah. Before I actually started pursuing this
educational career within industry, I was a technician
and a contractor for a couple of decades. And
I can remember early in my career, so I've shared
this story with some friends and they always
get a kick out of it. It was probably 2010 -ish,
somewhere in that ballpark. A local friend of
mine, he was a mechanical engineer, was building
his own home. He was the general contractor.
And that was when we were starting to talk about
high efficiency systems and high performing homes.
And so at the time, encapsulation was the conversational
piece. So he wanted to build the tightest home
that he could with the least heating and cooling
capacity. Build a really nice two story home
with a full basement that had, you know, like
14 inch thick insulated concrete walls, encapsulated
the entire structure all the way up to the roof
decking, the best windows, best doors he could.
Low calculation on it was very minimal, had a
geothermal system. And so, you know, he did all
of the. Construction of it, following what codes
were available in our area, didn't have any type
of an ASHRAE standard for air quality at the
time. And shortly after Thanksgiving, he gave
me a call and he said, hey, what do you know
about air quality? And I said, well, you know,
I deal with a fair amount of air quality. He
says, is there any way to measure and to help
me get some ideas of what's going on? I said,
well, what's the problem? And he says, well,
it's kind of embarrassing. I was like. I'm a
contractor. I'll be very professional about this.
What's your concern? He says, I can't fart in
my own home. And I said, okay, that's not exactly
what I was anticipating the conversation to be.
He says, just as an example, he says, any type
of fumes in my home will be there the next day.
Yeah. He said, I can't run my fireplace because
it chokes itself out in about two or three hours.
My windows have so much condensation, I cannot
boil water in my home. Wow. what do I do? I said,
well, you need some makeup air. You need a lot
of makeup air and it's going to change your entire
load on your structure and it's going to have
to be recalculated into your system. That was
the beginning of my curiosity with air quality
and the ways that we can combat these tighter
constructions. And it's crucial to have guidance.
And I use that example all the time because it
always gets a little bit of chuckle out of somebody.
But the truth of it is, as we build these tighter
homes, there are consequences. Sure. And as professionals,
we need to understand what they are and where
the resources are to learn about them. Yeah,
I think, you know, for your audience, anybody
kind of tuned in on this topic right now, I would
say the first thing anybody has a concern about
with air quality in their home, it's run your
system more. Particularly in shoulder seasons,
that depends on where you are in the country
right now, whether it's really cold outside or
not. I'm in heat pump zone. We're running the
heat because it's nice and cold today. But if
you're not running your system, you should be
circulating the air in your home. I mean, that
is number one, because air does get stale for
sure. and not having air changes is the first
biggest concern with air quality, right? So start
moving your air around. It allows particles to
get through filters that are built into your
home for a reason to help protect your air. And
then if you do have concerns like you're talking
about, whether it's odors or... odors, primarily
odors or particles or pathogens that are concerns.
There's electronic air cleaners and there's always
better filtration that you could step up to if
your system can support it. And that's where
you probably need to get the support of your
technician who knows how to do the math on that
because you don't want to do too much static
pressure on your system because you got a second
problem. But move your air. Like if I could make
one recommendation, it's move your air. It's
it's we we do testing in people's homes with
our products and. You know, whether it's ions
or UV lamps or filters, they don't do any good
if the air doesn't come meet them. You got to
move the air past these devices to actually have
an impact with your electronic air cleaners or
filters. And so that's a big deal. And I purposefully
changed thermostats out in my home to get to
one that I can set it to run at least for 15
minutes every hour. It's smart enough to just
circulate. Even if it doesn't need to condition,
it still moves the air. And we've done the math.
It's $1 to $2 a day just to move it without conditioning
load. It's not going to break the bank, and I
think your area will get a lot better because
of it. Absolutely. Audicash, I sure appreciate
you joining us with some really good education
and information. Where can we learn more about
your involvement in the industry, your products?
yeah for sure i'm the ceo of gps air so it's
gpsair .com easy peasy and for those of you that
are interested i'm kind of always doing presentations
out on the road but but you know our linkedin
page so if you find gps air on linkedin you can
see all the upcoming training opportunities you
have on 62 .1 i'm actually doing an advanced
course on this on the indoor quality procedure
next week and then The week after that, we should
have a big product launch. But anyway, tune in
to us at GPSair .com or our LinkedIn page. Very
cool. I really appreciate your time and your
education today. Thank you very much. It's always
a pleasure. Hope to interact soon. Same here.
Thank you. Thank you.