WEBVTT 00:00:06.190 --> 00:00:09.529 Welcome to Did You Know, the ESCO HVAC podcast, 00:00:10.009 --> 00:00:12.289 the show where we explore the cool, the hot, 00:00:12.289 --> 00:00:15.650 and the everything in between of the HVACR industry. 00:00:16.070 --> 00:00:19.250 Each week, we dig into the innovations, the insights, 00:00:19.370 --> 00:00:22.190 and the inspiring stories that power our trade, 00:00:22.350 --> 00:00:24.829 from the classroom to the job site and beyond. 00:00:25.030 --> 00:00:27.170 This episode is brought to you by this week's 00:00:27.170 --> 00:00:29.829 amazing sponsors. Daikin Comfort Technology, 00:00:30.269 --> 00:00:34.409 perfecting the air since 1924. ServiceLogic, 00:00:34.450 --> 00:00:38.969 people first. Always. Hudson Technologies. One 00:00:38.969 --> 00:00:43.390 pound reclaimed is one pound not made. iConnect 00:00:43.390 --> 00:00:47.409 Training. Supporting HVAC and refrigeration instructors. 00:00:47.829 --> 00:00:50.869 As well as the United Association of Journeymen 00:00:50.869 --> 00:00:53.009 and Apprentices of the Plumbing and Pipefitting 00:00:53.009 --> 00:00:55.649 Industry of the United States and Canada. Built 00:00:55.649 --> 00:00:59.310 on excellence since 1889. Whether you're just 00:00:59.310 --> 00:01:01.289 getting started or you've been turning wrenches 00:01:01.289 --> 00:01:04.049 for decades like myself, there's always something 00:01:04.049 --> 00:01:07.250 new for us to learn. I'm Clifton Beck, and this 00:01:07.250 --> 00:01:12.069 is Did You Know? The ESCO HVAC Podcast. Let's 00:01:12.069 --> 00:01:14.969 dive in. Hello, everyone. Thank you so much for 00:01:14.969 --> 00:01:18.310 joining Did You Know? The ESCO HVAC Podcast. 00:01:18.969 --> 00:01:21.709 We've been spending a lot of time talking about 00:01:21.709 --> 00:01:24.010 transitions that we're making with equipment, 00:01:24.150 --> 00:01:27.370 with refrigerants, and sometimes we'll talk about 00:01:27.370 --> 00:01:30.129 the regulations and the driving forces behind 00:01:30.129 --> 00:01:32.209 that. So today we're spending some time with 00:01:32.209 --> 00:01:34.469 Audie Cash. How are you, sir? Hey, good to see 00:01:34.469 --> 00:01:36.569 you. Good to be here. How are you? I'm doing 00:01:36.569 --> 00:01:39.189 wonderful. I think I'm just about as confused 00:01:39.189 --> 00:01:41.609 as everybody else in the industry. Join the party. 00:01:41.829 --> 00:01:44.290 Yeah. We're all trying to stay up to date and 00:01:44.290 --> 00:01:45.510 we're trying to look for the right resources 00:01:45.510 --> 00:01:50.049 to make sure we understand how regulations and 00:01:50.049 --> 00:01:52.969 codes are changing, not just the installation 00:01:52.969 --> 00:01:55.310 environment, but even the whole manufacturing 00:01:55.310 --> 00:01:58.560 side. And, you know, you and I were kind of discussing 00:01:58.560 --> 00:02:01.299 some of the regulations that's driving this. 00:02:01.760 --> 00:02:05.140 We've got a lot of ASHRAE committees and subcommittees. 00:02:05.439 --> 00:02:09.000 And we have guidelines and we have regulations 00:02:09.000 --> 00:02:11.159 and some of that getting moved into codes. And 00:02:11.159 --> 00:02:13.560 we have some areas that have not updated their 00:02:13.560 --> 00:02:18.199 codes. And it's kind of a mess. It's complicated. 00:02:18.419 --> 00:02:20.900 I'll agree with you. Yeah. But when you have 00:02:20.900 --> 00:02:22.620 the right sources and you have the people that 00:02:22.620 --> 00:02:25.120 are dedicated to breaking it down and understanding 00:02:25.120 --> 00:02:31.259 it, There's a lot of partnerships being made 00:02:31.259 --> 00:02:33.539 in the industry right now with professionals 00:02:33.539 --> 00:02:37.280 who are trying to sort through and understand 00:02:37.280 --> 00:02:39.840 and share content. And that's very much what 00:02:39.840 --> 00:02:42.139 you've been doing for the last couple of years. 00:02:42.659 --> 00:02:46.419 So let's, I guess we can start on things. Let's 00:02:46.419 --> 00:02:49.639 just start on things like 90 .1 or 62. Let's 00:02:49.639 --> 00:02:52.460 talk about some of the guiding forces within 00:02:52.460 --> 00:02:56.310 our industry and what's shaping those. Yeah, 00:02:56.310 --> 00:02:59.530 your opening statement is true. There's a lot 00:02:59.530 --> 00:03:02.449 going on, and it feels like it can be like a 00:03:02.449 --> 00:03:05.669 word and number soup if you're kind of new to 00:03:05.669 --> 00:03:08.430 it or if you're kind of coming in and out, depending 00:03:08.430 --> 00:03:11.650 upon where you are in the design cycle for projects. 00:03:11.750 --> 00:03:13.729 One of the things that we've been spending a 00:03:13.729 --> 00:03:17.169 lot of time on is understanding how 90 .1, which 00:03:17.169 --> 00:03:20.909 is really energy and energy code, drive decision 00:03:20.909 --> 00:03:24.139 -making for building efficiency. Yes. And how 00:03:24.139 --> 00:03:26.719 the ventilation standards are trying to keep 00:03:26.719 --> 00:03:29.419 up with these energy objectives. And you do have 00:03:29.419 --> 00:03:31.460 challenges in certain markets and states in particular 00:03:31.460 --> 00:03:34.159 where the mechanical code or the energy code 00:03:34.159 --> 00:03:36.719 are kind of out of sync. ASHRAE does progress 00:03:36.719 --> 00:03:39.580 these forward in a purposeful way to try to help 00:03:39.580 --> 00:03:42.800 designers achieve higher and greater building 00:03:42.800 --> 00:03:44.979 designs and better building efficiencies. Right. 00:03:45.060 --> 00:03:47.000 But if they're out of sync, it can be even harder. 00:03:47.259 --> 00:03:50.620 But that's why. We see some states progressing 00:03:50.620 --> 00:03:54.439 their mechanical codes now. About 20 states have 00:03:54.439 --> 00:03:59.800 adopted the 2019 version of their 62 .1, which 00:03:59.800 --> 00:04:01.300 is a ventilation, so that we're catching up. 00:04:01.659 --> 00:04:04.919 But that's a lot of states left. And I think 00:04:04.919 --> 00:04:08.460 in the end, a designer that's trying to design 00:04:08.460 --> 00:04:10.379 a building has got a lot of decisions to make. 00:04:10.819 --> 00:04:14.460 The mechanical code and the standards are the 00:04:14.460 --> 00:04:16.420 first place that they will go to to get good 00:04:16.420 --> 00:04:18.579 insights, I think. Yeah. And I think a lot of 00:04:18.579 --> 00:04:22.439 the industry is unaware of the fact that across 00:04:22.439 --> 00:04:25.819 the country, we have standards and codes that 00:04:25.819 --> 00:04:29.879 do not follow consistency. And when we think 00:04:29.879 --> 00:04:32.319 about that, like we're talking about adopting 00:04:32.319 --> 00:04:37.000 2019 standards, six -year -old standards, just 00:04:37.000 --> 00:04:42.120 now thinking about adopting 2019 standards. And 00:04:42.120 --> 00:04:44.459 so when we think about what's changed even since 00:04:44.459 --> 00:04:47.379 2019, there's been a lot just in the last couple 00:04:47.379 --> 00:04:51.879 of years. And so we have manufacturers and engineers 00:04:51.879 --> 00:04:55.339 that are really struggling with how do I build 00:04:55.339 --> 00:05:00.939 products that will be universally accepted and 00:05:00.939 --> 00:05:03.500 can fit some of these variety of different codes? 00:05:03.600 --> 00:05:06.060 And that's a difficult thing to do when you're 00:05:06.060 --> 00:05:08.699 a manufacturer, I can assume. Oh, it really is. 00:05:10.459 --> 00:05:12.439 I think if anybody's ever played hockey before, 00:05:12.519 --> 00:05:13.759 they know they want to skate to where the puck 00:05:13.759 --> 00:05:16.939 is heading. I think that's the hardest part because, 00:05:17.019 --> 00:05:18.839 you know, by the time you design a product, launch 00:05:18.839 --> 00:05:21.540 a product, things are going to change. And if 00:05:21.540 --> 00:05:23.740 you're designing for the 2019 version, eventually 00:05:23.740 --> 00:05:26.660 2022, 2025 will come along. And so you want to 00:05:26.660 --> 00:05:29.800 be as broad as possible. The good news is a lot 00:05:29.800 --> 00:05:32.579 of products that are in development are focused 00:05:32.579 --> 00:05:34.579 on energy efficiency. I think that trend started. 00:05:35.560 --> 00:05:37.480 And as long as you're focused more on energy 00:05:37.480 --> 00:05:39.579 efficiency, lower watts to do the same amount 00:05:39.579 --> 00:05:41.579 of work. you're moving in the right direction 00:05:41.579 --> 00:05:45.120 broadly because we know that's what 90 .1 is 00:05:45.120 --> 00:05:47.959 really driving us to is lower watts per square 00:05:47.959 --> 00:05:51.040 foot in a design. And so alternative technologies, 00:05:51.220 --> 00:05:54.480 and we've seen the popularity of DOAS systems 00:05:54.480 --> 00:05:56.980 or what we call decoupled systems, which obviously 00:05:56.980 --> 00:06:00.819 drive a lot of energy savings. And you see what 00:06:00.819 --> 00:06:02.839 we're driving towards is the indoor air quality 00:06:02.839 --> 00:06:06.120 procedure, which is reducing outdoor air by adding 00:06:06.120 --> 00:06:07.879 air cleaning, which of course can be a substantial 00:06:07.879 --> 00:06:10.959 savings because outdoor air. can be up to 40 00:06:10.959 --> 00:06:14.019 % of a building's energy use, right? I'm sorry, 00:06:14.139 --> 00:06:17.019 of an HVAC system's use. So that's a lot of opportunity. 00:06:17.910 --> 00:06:21.069 Yeah, absolutely. I just came back from an equipment 00:06:21.069 --> 00:06:24.089 manufacturer technical training. So I spent a 00:06:24.089 --> 00:06:27.649 week with Bosch as they're making this transition 00:06:27.649 --> 00:06:30.569 with the Johnson Controls and Hitachi team. And 00:06:30.569 --> 00:06:32.529 even looking at their technical training center 00:06:32.529 --> 00:06:34.449 that they have, their Ducted Systems Academy 00:06:34.449 --> 00:06:36.970 out in Norman, Oklahoma, we were talking about 00:06:36.970 --> 00:06:38.569 what equipment that they were bringing in. They're 00:06:38.569 --> 00:06:40.149 like, well, that whole corner over there is going 00:06:40.149 --> 00:06:42.209 to be DOAS equipment because now we have to really 00:06:42.209 --> 00:06:46.009 start focusing on where can we educate on energy 00:06:46.009 --> 00:06:48.459 reduction and what What type of systems can be 00:06:48.459 --> 00:06:52.040 implemented that will focus on that? And so they're 00:06:52.040 --> 00:06:56.079 lining up an entirely new realm of DOAS just 00:06:56.079 --> 00:06:58.779 because of things like this. So where are we 00:06:58.779 --> 00:07:02.040 in the industry and where are we headed? Yeah. 00:07:02.100 --> 00:07:05.399 So I think big picture, we are continuing to 00:07:05.399 --> 00:07:08.600 move forward with energy efficiency as a primary 00:07:08.600 --> 00:07:11.060 goal. Carbon reduction, which I think was more 00:07:11.060 --> 00:07:12.860 popular, maybe less so in the last couple of 00:07:12.860 --> 00:07:15.920 years, isn't really going away. whether it's 00:07:15.920 --> 00:07:19.600 municipalities, some states, or even end users. 00:07:19.720 --> 00:07:22.600 It's just good practice. And I think where we're 00:07:22.600 --> 00:07:24.579 really going as an industry is to find the way 00:07:24.579 --> 00:07:27.220 to intersect between good energy efficiency and 00:07:27.220 --> 00:07:30.180 good return on investment. Am I applying my dollars 00:07:30.180 --> 00:07:33.100 in a practical way for efficient HVAC equipment? 00:07:33.680 --> 00:07:36.699 The reason decoupled systems have become so popular 00:07:36.699 --> 00:07:38.939 and DOAS systems have become so popular is because 00:07:38.939 --> 00:07:41.519 they do ventilation fairly well, fairly cost 00:07:41.519 --> 00:07:44.060 -effectively. And it reduces an indoor air quality 00:07:44.060 --> 00:07:46.220 concern, which is often too much moisture in 00:07:46.220 --> 00:07:48.819 a design or too much humidity. Building pressurization 00:07:48.819 --> 00:07:51.199 and moisture management is a big commercial concern. 00:07:51.720 --> 00:07:55.560 And so as these pieces of equipment become better, 00:07:55.620 --> 00:07:57.779 more sophisticated, able to lower the moisture 00:07:57.779 --> 00:07:59.579 content in the air as it gets delivered to a 00:07:59.579 --> 00:08:02.040 space, you get better designs, better, more efficient 00:08:02.040 --> 00:08:05.639 designs. And that's why I think that investment 00:08:05.639 --> 00:08:08.519 in that area and really all going to this idea 00:08:08.519 --> 00:08:11.399 of ventilation being an HVAC being the number 00:08:11.399 --> 00:08:13.920 one concern. from an energy perspective. So do 00:08:13.920 --> 00:08:15.839 that really well. See, the lighting industry 00:08:15.839 --> 00:08:18.019 went to LED and suddenly they stopped. They were 00:08:18.019 --> 00:08:20.259 the bad guys for a while. Like the biggest watts 00:08:20.259 --> 00:08:22.879 per square foot were lights. Oh, not anymore. 00:08:23.319 --> 00:08:26.879 So HVAC is sort of in the crosshairs as the leading 00:08:26.879 --> 00:08:30.759 energy consumer. And so the idea of seeking strategies 00:08:30.759 --> 00:08:33.600 or equipment that drive efficiency is not going 00:08:33.600 --> 00:08:37.120 to be going away anytime soon. We don't see major 00:08:37.120 --> 00:08:39.240 leap. You don't see major technology leaps, right? 00:08:40.110 --> 00:08:43.529 25 % reduction in HVAC load, that's not a thing. 00:08:44.429 --> 00:08:46.549 Physics doesn't really allow us to do that. So 00:08:46.549 --> 00:08:48.409 we just try to find better ways to ventilate 00:08:48.409 --> 00:08:52.450 and condition buildings for these tighter sort 00:08:52.450 --> 00:08:55.850 of energy times. Yeah, I believe exactly what 00:08:55.850 --> 00:08:57.750 you're saying. I believe that we are making that 00:08:57.750 --> 00:09:00.269 transition right now to focusing on the efficiency 00:09:00.269 --> 00:09:03.110 of the structure from the HVAC perspective. I 00:09:03.110 --> 00:09:06.490 just did a complete training series for a very 00:09:06.490 --> 00:09:10.750 large utility on the West Coast. Because they've 00:09:10.750 --> 00:09:14.049 spent the last decade focusing all of their training 00:09:14.049 --> 00:09:19.250 efforts on LED light conversions. Sure. And they 00:09:19.250 --> 00:09:21.490 have determined that they have been successful 00:09:21.490 --> 00:09:25.690 with this 10 -year campaign. And so now they're 00:09:25.690 --> 00:09:28.490 moving all of their efforts into education on 00:09:28.490 --> 00:09:31.929 building performance as well as equipment performance. 00:09:32.169 --> 00:09:34.889 And there's going to be a balance of understanding 00:09:34.889 --> 00:09:37.830 how to do that. Because in the commercial realm, 00:09:38.200 --> 00:09:42.659 We have a lot of regulations on air management, 00:09:42.840 --> 00:09:46.629 infiltration, understanding how much. external 00:09:46.629 --> 00:09:48.669 air to bring into a structure. We're working 00:09:48.669 --> 00:09:50.789 on that in residential. We have some areas that 00:09:50.789 --> 00:09:53.909 are already moving forward with their own requirements 00:09:53.909 --> 00:09:58.350 for fresh air based on the tightness of the home. 00:09:58.690 --> 00:10:01.929 So the residential realm, which a lot of our 00:10:01.929 --> 00:10:03.809 audience today, and we're glad that everyone's 00:10:03.809 --> 00:10:05.730 joining us from the residential sector. We do 00:10:05.730 --> 00:10:07.610 have some commercial technicians as well joining 00:10:07.610 --> 00:10:10.990 us. We have engineers. And I'm wanting particularly 00:10:10.990 --> 00:10:15.649 our residential consumers to understand that 00:10:16.000 --> 00:10:18.379 We're moving into a place where it's going to 00:10:18.379 --> 00:10:21.500 be required for you to understand the quality 00:10:21.500 --> 00:10:25.120 of the air and the structure and how to, like 00:10:25.120 --> 00:10:28.600 you were saying, reduce some of that air that 00:10:28.600 --> 00:10:30.720 you're bringing in because of the amount of energy 00:10:30.720 --> 00:10:32.759 it costs to not just bring it in, but then to 00:10:32.759 --> 00:10:35.600 treat it. Like any air we're bringing in, we're 00:10:35.600 --> 00:10:37.700 going to have to dehumidify, we're going to have 00:10:37.700 --> 00:10:41.379 to temper. So how can we do a better job working 00:10:41.379 --> 00:10:44.039 with the air that we have? And that's really 00:10:44.039 --> 00:10:47.220 been your focus for the last few years. Yeah, 00:10:47.259 --> 00:10:51.679 spot on. You know, I think the transition on 00:10:51.679 --> 00:10:53.799 the commercial side will be a lot of conversations 00:10:53.799 --> 00:10:55.940 about ventilation and making sure ventilation 00:10:55.940 --> 00:10:59.190 is appropriately. balanced with the needs of 00:10:59.190 --> 00:11:01.529 the space. And one of the best areas you can 00:11:01.529 --> 00:11:04.009 do that is to balance your outdoor air with indoor 00:11:04.009 --> 00:11:07.230 air cleaning. And the one thing that ASHRAE has 00:11:07.230 --> 00:11:09.769 supported for 20 years or more, and frankly, 00:11:09.830 --> 00:11:12.350 doesn't get enough adoption, is this idea of 00:11:12.350 --> 00:11:15.090 balancing outdoor air and air cleaning so that 00:11:15.090 --> 00:11:17.970 you can reduce outdoor air, which will lead to 00:11:17.970 --> 00:11:20.389 sort of, I would say, incredible equipment savings, 00:11:20.570 --> 00:11:22.009 return on investment, those kinds of things. 00:11:22.169 --> 00:11:24.710 And in any existing structure, especially older 00:11:24.710 --> 00:11:27.570 buildings, bringing in more outdoor air may not 00:11:27.570 --> 00:11:29.590 even be easy to do. Like you almost literally 00:11:29.590 --> 00:11:31.570 have to make a bigger hole in the building. And 00:11:31.570 --> 00:11:34.710 that doesn't go over well. It drives cost, right? 00:11:34.889 --> 00:11:36.929 And I think as you point out, Clifton, in people's 00:11:36.929 --> 00:11:39.610 homes, indoor air quality is sort of an afterthought. 00:11:39.690 --> 00:11:42.309 We think about temperature. We think of humidity. 00:11:43.230 --> 00:11:45.429 Maybe those are the things that we feel comfortable 00:11:45.429 --> 00:11:48.250 at home. But one of the things that we're trying 00:11:48.250 --> 00:11:51.070 to move forward to your point is how well is 00:11:51.070 --> 00:11:53.230 your system or how well is your home ventilated? 00:11:53.690 --> 00:11:55.830 And so we're bringing more and more air quality 00:11:55.830 --> 00:11:58.850 monitoring, measuring and responsiveness even 00:11:58.850 --> 00:12:01.809 into homes. It used to be, I'd say that's mostly 00:12:01.809 --> 00:12:05.629 a commercial thought process, but it's not that 00:12:05.629 --> 00:12:07.950 expensive anymore. The cost of sensors, like 00:12:07.950 --> 00:12:10.409 the miniaturization of sensors and sensing technology 00:12:10.409 --> 00:12:14.669 is right here today. And so homeowners can be 00:12:14.669 --> 00:12:16.669 informed. The one thing that we've been talking 00:12:16.669 --> 00:12:18.970 about, and we haven't frankly launched it yet, 00:12:19.029 --> 00:12:20.809 but this is early days for us. But one of the 00:12:20.809 --> 00:12:23.059 things we've been talking about is. Making a 00:12:23.059 --> 00:12:25.320 third number. People pay attention to temperature. 00:12:25.500 --> 00:12:27.620 They pay attention to humidity. But what about 00:12:27.620 --> 00:12:30.879 your indoor air quality score? How good is your 00:12:30.879 --> 00:12:33.659 air? How good is the air? I agree. And it's frankly 00:12:33.659 --> 00:12:36.620 not hard to do. And as we've done studies out 00:12:36.620 --> 00:12:39.000 in the real world with real people's homes, it's 00:12:39.000 --> 00:12:41.000 disturbingly bad at times and people don't know. 00:12:41.299 --> 00:12:45.200 So we will see some major progress, I think. 00:12:45.600 --> 00:12:48.039 Particularly if you look at ventilation. Yeah, 00:12:48.039 --> 00:12:49.879 well, we look at the quality of the air outdoors. 00:12:50.039 --> 00:12:52.179 It's not like the air that we had, you know, 00:12:52.179 --> 00:12:55.639 50 or 60 years ago where we preferred bringing 00:12:55.639 --> 00:12:57.659 in all of our outside air. You know, and many 00:12:57.659 --> 00:12:59.879 times we're talking about, you know, manufacturing 00:12:59.879 --> 00:13:01.500 environments. We're talking about commercial 00:13:01.500 --> 00:13:05.080 buildings that are in high volume areas and that 00:13:05.080 --> 00:13:09.340 outside air may not be as. good as what we would 00:13:09.340 --> 00:13:11.720 think that it is. And, you know, many parts of 00:13:11.720 --> 00:13:13.440 the world, particularly if you look at the Asian 00:13:13.440 --> 00:13:18.080 homeowners, it's a norm to have indoor air monitoring 00:13:18.080 --> 00:13:22.080 so that they understand how to better treat the 00:13:22.080 --> 00:13:24.200 air internally. And that's, you're right. It's 00:13:24.200 --> 00:13:26.440 just now starting to become more of a standard. 00:13:26.919 --> 00:13:30.320 I've been working with a lot of OEMs as well 00:13:30.320 --> 00:13:32.820 as third -party companies in the industry that 00:13:32.820 --> 00:13:37.429 are, you know, very much about System performance. 00:13:37.850 --> 00:13:40.250 And it's intriguing the amount of conversations 00:13:40.250 --> 00:13:43.210 that start out as system performance that lead 00:13:43.210 --> 00:13:46.490 directly into air performance. You know, air 00:13:46.490 --> 00:13:49.289 is a driving force behind our comfort, no matter 00:13:49.289 --> 00:13:51.110 whether you're a ducted system or a ductless 00:13:51.110 --> 00:13:55.049 system. And so the air that we're moving, it's 00:13:55.049 --> 00:13:57.409 critical to understand what is that condition. 00:13:57.649 --> 00:13:59.690 We always talk about we're in the job of moving 00:13:59.690 --> 00:14:01.370 heat and we're in the air conditioning business. 00:14:01.549 --> 00:14:03.870 Well, what are we conditioning? And I think it's 00:14:03.870 --> 00:14:05.970 important that we understand what we're actually 00:14:05.970 --> 00:14:07.870 working with before we try to treat. It's kind 00:14:07.870 --> 00:14:09.529 of like a doctor, you know, someone going into 00:14:09.529 --> 00:14:11.350 a doctor's office and going, I don't feel good. 00:14:11.389 --> 00:14:12.769 A doctor says, let's just throw everything at 00:14:12.769 --> 00:14:15.549 you and hope that you feel better. Good luck 00:14:15.549 --> 00:14:17.570 with that approach. Well, that'll cost you a 00:14:17.570 --> 00:14:19.889 lot. I think it will cost you a lot and sometimes 00:14:19.889 --> 00:14:22.889 creates, you know, byproducts that are even more 00:14:22.889 --> 00:14:27.029 toxic than the original conditions. And so when 00:14:27.029 --> 00:14:29.230 the when the cure is worse than the disease. 00:14:29.330 --> 00:14:33.269 Right. So. so i will i will just to play on your 00:14:33.269 --> 00:14:35.029 your comment a little bit i think that there's 00:14:35.029 --> 00:14:37.710 something really interesting about this idea 00:14:37.710 --> 00:14:40.309 of urbanization and living in cities and living 00:14:40.309 --> 00:14:43.629 uh where it's convenient to walk versus drive 00:14:43.629 --> 00:14:45.409 and like there's a lot of that going on a lot 00:14:45.409 --> 00:14:49.590 of people live in um in more densely urban environments 00:14:49.590 --> 00:14:51.190 particularly throughout the world but in the 00:14:51.190 --> 00:14:55.009 united states increasingly cities are one of 00:14:55.009 --> 00:14:56.940 the one of the challenges around air quality. 00:14:57.159 --> 00:15:00.620 We have ozone alert days. We have other PM, you 00:15:00.620 --> 00:15:03.039 know, so particulate matter. And this has been 00:15:03.039 --> 00:15:05.360 a common thread, I'd say, over the past two years 00:15:05.360 --> 00:15:08.419 of any article I see on air quality. We focus 00:15:08.419 --> 00:15:11.480 on particles, and that's really important. Particles, 00:15:11.519 --> 00:15:14.940 PM 2 .5, those are the 2 .5 microns or smaller. 00:15:15.460 --> 00:15:17.779 PM 1, really, you know, one micron, like these 00:15:17.779 --> 00:15:22.600 ultrafines, are about 70 % of the health concerns 00:15:22.600 --> 00:15:24.399 come from those kinds of particles in our breathing 00:15:24.399 --> 00:15:28.639 zone. So if you think about 80 -20, 70 % come 00:15:28.639 --> 00:15:31.720 from particles. The next bit comes from something 00:15:31.720 --> 00:15:33.899 like formaldehyde, which is a building material 00:15:33.899 --> 00:15:37.139 off gas. These things are not easy to manage. 00:15:37.220 --> 00:15:39.720 They're invisible to see. But it starts with 00:15:39.720 --> 00:15:41.720 good equipment maintenance. It starts with good 00:15:41.720 --> 00:15:44.500 filtration in your home, especially if you live 00:15:44.500 --> 00:15:46.639 in an urban environment. And so you look at these 00:15:46.639 --> 00:15:49.320 particles, and they're really supposed to be 00:15:49.320 --> 00:15:53.769 captured by good filters. But how well is it 00:15:53.769 --> 00:15:56.509 working? It's hard to know. And now we're bringing, 00:15:56.669 --> 00:15:58.889 I think, more and more sensing to that conversation 00:15:58.889 --> 00:16:01.429 so that you can see it and make good decisions. 00:16:02.149 --> 00:16:04.590 But anyway, I digress a little bit, but I think 00:16:04.590 --> 00:16:08.750 the whole concept of air quality and measuring 00:16:08.750 --> 00:16:11.889 for the contaminants that matter is what ASHRAE 00:16:11.889 --> 00:16:13.990 is moving us towards. So, you know, we talked 00:16:13.990 --> 00:16:17.230 about earlier about the 62 .1 in 2019 and the 00:16:17.230 --> 00:16:19.830 mechanical codes. since 2019 i don't know if 00:16:19.830 --> 00:16:21.250 anybody's been paying attention there was a global 00:16:21.250 --> 00:16:25.370 pandemic so like the whole hvac world kind of 00:16:25.370 --> 00:16:27.870 got turned on its head because part of the reason 00:16:27.870 --> 00:16:29.730 why the pathogen gets spread in a building is 00:16:29.730 --> 00:16:32.470 because we move air right right so so we had 00:16:32.470 --> 00:16:34.710 to get better as a business better as an industry 00:16:34.710 --> 00:16:36.710 and we did and those so there's been updates 00:16:36.710 --> 00:16:40.809 in 2022 and 2025 and all i can say is that the 00:16:40.809 --> 00:16:45.470 standards um for residential 62 .2 and 62 .1 00:16:45.470 --> 00:16:48.600 for commercial have large amounts of information 00:16:48.600 --> 00:16:51.159 in them now focused on indoor air quality. And 00:16:51.159 --> 00:16:54.039 that procedure, which focuses on managing particles 00:16:54.039 --> 00:16:57.659 and these gases that are impossible to see. And 00:16:57.659 --> 00:16:59.820 all I can say is, if you follow the procedure, 00:16:59.980 --> 00:17:03.000 you'll have healthier indoor air. And we just 00:17:03.000 --> 00:17:04.859 want to make that visible and visual to people 00:17:04.859 --> 00:17:07.220 so they can make good decisions. It's really 00:17:07.220 --> 00:17:09.440 an opportunity, and it does directly impact a 00:17:09.440 --> 00:17:12.089 lot of people's lives, right? Yeah. You know, 00:17:12.109 --> 00:17:14.829 I think about the homes that we're building. 00:17:15.309 --> 00:17:17.329 You know, we always think about a newer home 00:17:17.329 --> 00:17:21.049 being a cleaner environment, being a fresher, 00:17:21.089 --> 00:17:24.130 a more fresh environment, you know, because we're 00:17:24.130 --> 00:17:28.640 making them so tight. The home that I'm in, it's 00:17:28.640 --> 00:17:31.339 now five years old. We moved into it new. One 00:17:31.339 --> 00:17:33.859 of the first things I did was start looking at 00:17:33.859 --> 00:17:36.720 air monitors. And so I have a couple of different 00:17:36.720 --> 00:17:39.839 air monitors that I have worked with from manufacturers, 00:17:40.480 --> 00:17:43.240 tool manufacturers and test manufacturers. And 00:17:43.240 --> 00:17:46.119 we were very intrigued when we started looking 00:17:46.119 --> 00:17:48.680 at the air quality indoors, recognizing that 00:17:48.680 --> 00:17:52.619 our indoor air quality was significantly worse 00:17:52.619 --> 00:17:57.769 than our outdoor air. A lot of off gassing. We 00:17:57.769 --> 00:18:01.410 had a lot of contamination. And so we have to 00:18:01.410 --> 00:18:05.049 really change our mindset and think about construction 00:18:05.049 --> 00:18:08.569 trends that have changed. We always talk about, 00:18:08.569 --> 00:18:10.589 oh, we need better windows. We need better doors. 00:18:10.670 --> 00:18:13.829 We need tighter homes. We need less infiltration. 00:18:13.869 --> 00:18:16.230 We need better vapor barriers. But in that process, 00:18:16.490 --> 00:18:22.220 we are. we're removing a lot of that cleaner 00:18:22.220 --> 00:18:25.380 air or fresh air in many cases that we used to 00:18:25.380 --> 00:18:28.279 rely on in a home. So it's critical that we understand 00:18:28.279 --> 00:18:32.660 the standards for that. I know that it's not 00:18:32.660 --> 00:18:35.480 required in our residential applications yet, 00:18:35.539 --> 00:18:37.740 but at least we have some of our ASHRAE standards 00:18:37.740 --> 00:18:40.220 that are leaning us into that. And we do have 00:18:40.220 --> 00:18:43.640 jurisdictions that are now requiring us to bring 00:18:43.640 --> 00:18:46.319 in fresh air and to treat it in homes that are 00:18:46.319 --> 00:18:49.539 too tight and need that additional ventilation. 00:18:50.059 --> 00:18:53.859 Yeah, you know, so this is the example of efficiency 00:18:53.859 --> 00:18:56.460 is driving a secondary effect that may not be 00:18:56.460 --> 00:18:58.160 what we intended, right? So building efficiency, 00:18:58.420 --> 00:19:00.940 home energy efficiency seals the building up 00:19:00.940 --> 00:19:03.690 tight. And while we've kept the outdoor out, 00:19:03.890 --> 00:19:07.529 which is generally, you know, sometimes a good 00:19:07.529 --> 00:19:08.930 thing, right? Especially from a temperature and 00:19:08.930 --> 00:19:13.390 humidity perspective and wildlife, I guess. But 00:19:13.390 --> 00:19:16.250 as you do that, you have to kind of look in the 00:19:16.250 --> 00:19:18.369 mirror and realize you're the number one contaminant 00:19:18.369 --> 00:19:21.349 of your air. The activities that we partake in, 00:19:21.410 --> 00:19:25.059 even just digestion and respiration. We do pollute 00:19:25.059 --> 00:19:26.799 our own indoor air. We are the leading cause 00:19:26.799 --> 00:19:29.460 of pollutant in the home, by the way. And of 00:19:29.460 --> 00:19:31.220 course, if you have dogs and cats and kids and, 00:19:31.240 --> 00:19:33.039 you know, you have them all look in the mirror 00:19:33.039 --> 00:19:35.839 because they're part of the problem. And so ventilation 00:19:35.839 --> 00:19:39.259 and doing it efficiently is really key and bringing 00:19:39.259 --> 00:19:42.160 in outdoor air and exchanging outdoor air. You 00:19:42.160 --> 00:19:44.519 know, so like bathroom exhaust fans help with 00:19:44.519 --> 00:19:49.220 this process. Right. So the 62 .1, the latest, 00:19:49.359 --> 00:19:51.759 I'm sorry, 62 .2, the latest residential standard 00:19:51.759 --> 00:19:54.599 from ASHRAE does include pretty hearty guidelines 00:19:54.599 --> 00:19:56.900 on indoor air quality and how to manage that 00:19:56.900 --> 00:19:58.859 better in your home. I know it's not required 00:19:58.859 --> 00:20:00.779 by code anywhere, but if I were building a home 00:20:00.779 --> 00:20:03.460 tomorrow, I would certainly break the code out 00:20:03.460 --> 00:20:06.220 and spend some time looking with my HVAC technician 00:20:06.220 --> 00:20:08.460 saying, what would it cost me to do X, Y, or 00:20:08.460 --> 00:20:10.940 Z? And some of it's temperature, humidity, for 00:20:10.940 --> 00:20:13.660 sure. Some of it's ventilation and doing. energy 00:20:13.660 --> 00:20:16.740 recovery ventilation is a is a reasonable approach 00:20:16.740 --> 00:20:19.279 my brother who lives in minnesota does that in 00:20:19.279 --> 00:20:21.740 his home they just built a new home um and so 00:20:21.740 --> 00:20:23.779 you know they want that you know they have several 00:20:23.779 --> 00:20:25.259 kids in their house they want good air quality 00:20:25.259 --> 00:20:26.819 and they don't want the energy bill necessarily 00:20:26.819 --> 00:20:29.500 to open a window right right so there's so especially 00:20:29.500 --> 00:20:31.400 in minnesota in the winter and so there's a good 00:20:31.400 --> 00:20:33.740 balancing act that can be struck here uh when 00:20:33.740 --> 00:20:35.559 you look at the guidance and the and the direction 00:20:35.559 --> 00:20:37.920 that the the ashtray standards can bring to you 00:20:38.460 --> 00:20:43.160 Yeah. Before I actually started pursuing this 00:20:43.160 --> 00:20:47.579 educational career within industry, I was a technician 00:20:47.579 --> 00:20:50.420 and a contractor for a couple of decades. And 00:20:50.420 --> 00:20:53.839 I can remember early in my career, so I've shared 00:20:53.839 --> 00:20:55.400 this story with some friends and they always 00:20:55.400 --> 00:21:00.099 get a kick out of it. It was probably 2010 -ish, 00:21:00.140 --> 00:21:03.039 somewhere in that ballpark. A local friend of 00:21:03.039 --> 00:21:06.539 mine, he was a mechanical engineer, was building 00:21:06.539 --> 00:21:09.259 his own home. He was the general contractor. 00:21:09.740 --> 00:21:12.279 And that was when we were starting to talk about 00:21:12.279 --> 00:21:14.880 high efficiency systems and high performing homes. 00:21:15.259 --> 00:21:18.880 And so at the time, encapsulation was the conversational 00:21:18.880 --> 00:21:21.420 piece. So he wanted to build the tightest home 00:21:21.420 --> 00:21:23.839 that he could with the least heating and cooling 00:21:23.839 --> 00:21:26.799 capacity. Build a really nice two story home 00:21:26.799 --> 00:21:29.460 with a full basement that had, you know, like 00:21:29.460 --> 00:21:33.640 14 inch thick insulated concrete walls, encapsulated 00:21:33.640 --> 00:21:36.859 the entire structure all the way up to the roof 00:21:36.859 --> 00:21:39.039 decking, the best windows, best doors he could. 00:21:39.220 --> 00:21:42.420 Low calculation on it was very minimal, had a 00:21:42.420 --> 00:21:45.440 geothermal system. And so, you know, he did all 00:21:45.440 --> 00:21:48.279 of the. Construction of it, following what codes 00:21:48.279 --> 00:21:50.640 were available in our area, didn't have any type 00:21:50.640 --> 00:21:53.019 of an ASHRAE standard for air quality at the 00:21:53.019 --> 00:21:56.619 time. And shortly after Thanksgiving, he gave 00:21:56.619 --> 00:21:59.440 me a call and he said, hey, what do you know 00:21:59.440 --> 00:22:02.220 about air quality? And I said, well, you know, 00:22:02.279 --> 00:22:03.980 I deal with a fair amount of air quality. He 00:22:03.980 --> 00:22:06.480 says, is there any way to measure and to help 00:22:06.480 --> 00:22:08.279 me get some ideas of what's going on? I said, 00:22:08.299 --> 00:22:10.539 well, what's the problem? And he says, well, 00:22:10.559 --> 00:22:13.000 it's kind of embarrassing. I was like. I'm a 00:22:13.000 --> 00:22:14.900 contractor. I'll be very professional about this. 00:22:15.779 --> 00:22:17.539 What's your concern? He says, I can't fart in 00:22:17.539 --> 00:22:21.359 my own home. And I said, okay, that's not exactly 00:22:21.359 --> 00:22:23.160 what I was anticipating the conversation to be. 00:22:23.279 --> 00:22:26.140 He says, just as an example, he says, any type 00:22:26.140 --> 00:22:29.059 of fumes in my home will be there the next day. 00:22:29.400 --> 00:22:32.980 Yeah. He said, I can't run my fireplace because 00:22:32.980 --> 00:22:35.339 it chokes itself out in about two or three hours. 00:22:35.519 --> 00:22:38.920 My windows have so much condensation, I cannot 00:22:38.920 --> 00:22:43.380 boil water in my home. Wow. what do I do? I said, 00:22:43.440 --> 00:22:46.279 well, you need some makeup air. You need a lot 00:22:46.279 --> 00:22:48.279 of makeup air and it's going to change your entire 00:22:48.279 --> 00:22:49.799 load on your structure and it's going to have 00:22:49.799 --> 00:22:53.460 to be recalculated into your system. That was 00:22:53.460 --> 00:22:57.720 the beginning of my curiosity with air quality 00:22:57.720 --> 00:23:01.680 and the ways that we can combat these tighter 00:23:01.680 --> 00:23:04.559 constructions. And it's crucial to have guidance. 00:23:04.779 --> 00:23:06.680 And I use that example all the time because it 00:23:06.680 --> 00:23:08.519 always gets a little bit of chuckle out of somebody. 00:23:08.819 --> 00:23:12.460 But the truth of it is, as we build these tighter 00:23:12.460 --> 00:23:15.640 homes, there are consequences. Sure. And as professionals, 00:23:15.859 --> 00:23:17.819 we need to understand what they are and where 00:23:17.819 --> 00:23:20.599 the resources are to learn about them. Yeah, 00:23:20.640 --> 00:23:22.420 I think, you know, for your audience, anybody 00:23:22.420 --> 00:23:24.920 kind of tuned in on this topic right now, I would 00:23:24.920 --> 00:23:27.039 say the first thing anybody has a concern about 00:23:27.039 --> 00:23:29.039 with air quality in their home, it's run your 00:23:29.039 --> 00:23:32.039 system more. Particularly in shoulder seasons, 00:23:32.099 --> 00:23:33.460 that depends on where you are in the country 00:23:33.460 --> 00:23:35.299 right now, whether it's really cold outside or 00:23:35.299 --> 00:23:38.400 not. I'm in heat pump zone. We're running the 00:23:38.400 --> 00:23:41.440 heat because it's nice and cold today. But if 00:23:41.440 --> 00:23:43.779 you're not running your system, you should be 00:23:43.779 --> 00:23:45.839 circulating the air in your home. I mean, that 00:23:45.839 --> 00:23:48.579 is number one, because air does get stale for 00:23:48.579 --> 00:23:52.210 sure. and not having air changes is the first 00:23:52.210 --> 00:23:55.549 biggest concern with air quality, right? So start 00:23:55.549 --> 00:23:57.869 moving your air around. It allows particles to 00:23:57.869 --> 00:23:59.829 get through filters that are built into your 00:23:59.829 --> 00:24:02.849 home for a reason to help protect your air. And 00:24:02.849 --> 00:24:04.289 then if you do have concerns like you're talking 00:24:04.289 --> 00:24:08.410 about, whether it's odors or... odors, primarily 00:24:08.410 --> 00:24:11.170 odors or particles or pathogens that are concerns. 00:24:11.369 --> 00:24:13.630 There's electronic air cleaners and there's always 00:24:13.630 --> 00:24:15.789 better filtration that you could step up to if 00:24:15.789 --> 00:24:17.069 your system can support it. And that's where 00:24:17.069 --> 00:24:19.470 you probably need to get the support of your 00:24:19.470 --> 00:24:21.349 technician who knows how to do the math on that 00:24:21.349 --> 00:24:23.089 because you don't want to do too much static 00:24:23.089 --> 00:24:24.609 pressure on your system because you got a second 00:24:24.609 --> 00:24:28.230 problem. But move your air. Like if I could make 00:24:28.230 --> 00:24:31.369 one recommendation, it's move your air. It's 00:24:31.369 --> 00:24:34.930 it's we we do testing in people's homes with 00:24:34.930 --> 00:24:37.950 our products and. You know, whether it's ions 00:24:37.950 --> 00:24:42.849 or UV lamps or filters, they don't do any good 00:24:42.849 --> 00:24:44.650 if the air doesn't come meet them. You got to 00:24:44.650 --> 00:24:47.849 move the air past these devices to actually have 00:24:47.849 --> 00:24:49.930 an impact with your electronic air cleaners or 00:24:49.930 --> 00:24:53.390 filters. And so that's a big deal. And I purposefully 00:24:53.390 --> 00:24:55.490 changed thermostats out in my home to get to 00:24:55.490 --> 00:24:58.309 one that I can set it to run at least for 15 00:24:58.309 --> 00:25:00.250 minutes every hour. It's smart enough to just 00:25:00.250 --> 00:25:03.230 circulate. Even if it doesn't need to condition, 00:25:03.430 --> 00:25:05.589 it still moves the air. And we've done the math. 00:25:06.519 --> 00:25:09.759 It's $1 to $2 a day just to move it without conditioning 00:25:09.759 --> 00:25:12.079 load. It's not going to break the bank, and I 00:25:12.079 --> 00:25:13.240 think your area will get a lot better because 00:25:13.240 --> 00:25:16.940 of it. Absolutely. Audicash, I sure appreciate 00:25:16.940 --> 00:25:19.759 you joining us with some really good education 00:25:19.759 --> 00:25:22.259 and information. Where can we learn more about 00:25:22.259 --> 00:25:25.559 your involvement in the industry, your products? 00:25:26.220 --> 00:25:29.019 yeah for sure i'm the ceo of gps air so it's 00:25:29.019 --> 00:25:32.900 gpsair .com easy peasy and for those of you that 00:25:32.900 --> 00:25:35.480 are interested i'm kind of always doing presentations 00:25:35.480 --> 00:25:38.900 out on the road but but you know our linkedin 00:25:38.900 --> 00:25:41.599 page so if you find gps air on linkedin you can 00:25:41.599 --> 00:25:43.339 see all the upcoming training opportunities you 00:25:43.339 --> 00:25:46.200 have on 62 .1 i'm actually doing an advanced 00:25:46.200 --> 00:25:48.799 course on this on the indoor quality procedure 00:25:48.799 --> 00:25:52.000 next week and then The week after that, we should 00:25:52.000 --> 00:25:53.960 have a big product launch. But anyway, tune in 00:25:53.960 --> 00:25:57.339 to us at GPSair .com or our LinkedIn page. Very 00:25:57.339 --> 00:25:59.339 cool. I really appreciate your time and your 00:25:59.339 --> 00:26:01.480 education today. Thank you very much. It's always 00:26:01.480 --> 00:26:03.519 a pleasure. Hope to interact soon. Same here. 00:26:03.559 --> 00:26:04.700 Thank you. Thank you.