WEBVTT 00:00:06.540 --> 00:00:09.900 Welcome to Did You Know, the ESCO HVAC podcast, 00:00:10.380 --> 00:00:12.660 the show where we explore the cool, the hot, 00:00:12.660 --> 00:00:16.039 and the everything in between of the HVACR industry. 00:00:16.440 --> 00:00:19.640 Each week, we dig into the innovations, the insights, 00:00:19.760 --> 00:00:22.559 and the inspiring stories that power our trade, 00:00:22.719 --> 00:00:25.199 from the classroom to the job site and beyond. 00:00:25.420 --> 00:00:27.539 This episode is brought to you by this week's 00:00:27.539 --> 00:00:30.199 amazing sponsors. Daikin Comfort Technology, 00:00:30.640 --> 00:00:34.780 perfecting the air since 1924. ServiceLogic, 00:00:34.820 --> 00:00:39.329 people first. Always. Hudson Technologies. One 00:00:39.329 --> 00:00:43.750 pound reclaimed is one pound not made. iConnect 00:00:43.750 --> 00:00:47.729 Training. Supporting HVAC and refrigeration instructors. 00:00:48.210 --> 00:00:51.250 As well as the United Association of Journeymen 00:00:51.250 --> 00:00:53.369 and Apprentices of the Plumbing and Pipefitting 00:00:53.369 --> 00:00:56.030 Industry of the United States and Canada. Built 00:00:56.030 --> 00:00:59.670 on excellence since 1889. Whether you're just 00:00:59.670 --> 00:01:01.649 getting started or you've been turning wrenches 00:01:01.649 --> 00:01:04.430 for decades like myself, there's always something 00:01:04.430 --> 00:01:07.609 new for us to learn. I'm Clifton Beck, and this 00:01:07.609 --> 00:01:12.430 is Did You Know? The ESCO HVAC Podcast. Let's 00:01:12.430 --> 00:01:15.730 dive in. Jamie Kitchen, how are you doing today, 00:01:15.849 --> 00:01:19.209 sir? I am doing fine, thank you for asking. It's 00:01:19.209 --> 00:01:22.150 great to be on here. I always love talking about 00:01:22.150 --> 00:01:24.129 refrigeration and air conditioning components 00:01:24.129 --> 00:01:26.709 and equipment, so that's probably why I work 00:01:26.709 --> 00:01:29.370 in that industry. It's funny. Yeah, no kidding. 00:01:29.530 --> 00:01:31.349 And, you know, the one we're going to talk about 00:01:31.349 --> 00:01:35.659 today is... One of the probably most misunderstood 00:01:35.659 --> 00:01:39.459 and definitely misdiagnosed components within 00:01:39.459 --> 00:01:42.920 our industry. And what could that be? I couldn't 00:01:42.920 --> 00:01:46.120 tell you how many posts I've seen for, it must 00:01:46.120 --> 00:01:48.680 be the expansion valve. It's like a meme now, 00:01:48.879 --> 00:01:52.400 right? I know. You know, the dumpster's on fire 00:01:52.400 --> 00:01:54.439 outside in the parking lot. Oh, it must be the 00:01:54.439 --> 00:01:58.659 TXV. Yeah. You know, I've spent over 20 years 00:01:58.659 --> 00:02:01.040 in the field, most of that in commercial refrigeration. 00:02:02.699 --> 00:02:05.900 And changing expansion valves is really almost 00:02:05.900 --> 00:02:08.360 as elusive as a reversing valve, of which I've 00:02:08.360 --> 00:02:11.060 placed two in my entire career. Expansion valves, 00:02:11.280 --> 00:02:13.419 yeah, I've probably replaced a hundred of them 00:02:13.419 --> 00:02:17.039 or so, but how many have I not replaced? Tens 00:02:17.039 --> 00:02:19.400 of thousands. Yeah, I mean, if you look at the 00:02:19.400 --> 00:02:23.099 install base, I mean, it's getting better. You 00:02:23.099 --> 00:02:26.020 know, whether this is too early to talk about 00:02:26.020 --> 00:02:30.069 this in the podcast, but... When SEER 13 came 00:02:30.069 --> 00:02:34.250 in back in the mid -2000s and everybody went 00:02:34.250 --> 00:02:39.370 to TXVs, the industry, Dan Foss included, woefully 00:02:39.370 --> 00:02:42.430 underestimated the amount of education and training 00:02:42.430 --> 00:02:45.129 required to get people to understand this. We 00:02:45.129 --> 00:02:47.590 just assumed it was a simple component that people 00:02:47.590 --> 00:02:50.650 knew. There was an entire generation of techs 00:02:50.650 --> 00:02:52.710 out there that had worked with nothing but pistons. 00:02:53.699 --> 00:02:56.939 Combine that with the valve that's not adjustable 00:02:56.939 --> 00:03:01.360 superheat -wise, and it just blew up in flames, 00:03:01.919 --> 00:03:06.520 right? So it was unbelievable. Well, then maybe 00:03:06.520 --> 00:03:09.960 we should step all the way back to the fundamentals, 00:03:10.340 --> 00:03:16.939 right? Okay. Like, how does a TXV work? Oh. Okay, 00:03:17.020 --> 00:03:20.000 so... remember back in science class balance 00:03:20.000 --> 00:03:22.840 of forces right you know and that's really what 00:03:22.840 --> 00:03:25.580 we have if you look at the flat saucer part soft 00:03:25.580 --> 00:03:28.340 flying saucer part on the txv inside of that 00:03:28.340 --> 00:03:31.539 he took the head off inside of that's a diaphragm 00:03:31.539 --> 00:03:36.240 a piece of tool steel metal tempered and on top 00:03:36.240 --> 00:03:40.020 of that you have one opening force and that's 00:03:40.020 --> 00:03:43.139 your sensing ball pressure now counteracting 00:03:43.139 --> 00:03:48.039 that on the bottom are two closing forces the 00:03:48.039 --> 00:03:50.800 superheat spring pressure, this is what you adjust 00:03:50.800 --> 00:03:53.819 when you're adjusting superheat, as well as the 00:03:53.819 --> 00:03:57.099 evaporator pressure. So between those two and 00:03:57.099 --> 00:03:59.699 the bulb pressure, sensing bulb pressure pushing 00:03:59.699 --> 00:04:02.759 on top, those are the forces fighting for control 00:04:02.759 --> 00:04:06.699 of the TXV. If they're equal, nothing happens. 00:04:06.960 --> 00:04:10.060 But if one becomes greater than the other, it's 00:04:10.060 --> 00:04:12.719 going to cause a deflection in that diaphragm. 00:04:12.719 --> 00:04:15.180 If the diaphragm deflects down, it's going to 00:04:15.180 --> 00:04:17.899 push on a pin. which is going to push the valve 00:04:17.899 --> 00:04:23.019 stem or the valve seat away from the orifice 00:04:23.019 --> 00:04:25.680 opening, allowing more refrigerant to flow. Okay. 00:04:25.839 --> 00:04:28.360 All right. So that would be your sensing bulb 00:04:28.360 --> 00:04:32.199 heating up. The gases in the sensing bulb, liquid 00:04:32.199 --> 00:04:35.160 change in state to vapor, takes up more volume, 00:04:35.300 --> 00:04:38.420 pressure increases, drives the valve open. Let's 00:04:38.420 --> 00:04:41.160 say you're running your cooler or your air conditioning 00:04:41.160 --> 00:04:43.850 and you remove the heat out of the space. You 00:04:43.850 --> 00:04:46.269 don't need as much load anymore. The TXV is going, 00:04:46.389 --> 00:04:48.149 hold on a second here, man. The refrigerant's 00:04:48.149 --> 00:04:51.870 leaving the evaporator cooler now. So my sensing 00:04:51.870 --> 00:04:55.470 bulb is becoming cooler. Then the evaporator 00:04:55.470 --> 00:04:57.589 and superheat spring then start to close the 00:04:57.589 --> 00:05:01.189 valve and reduce the amount of flow into the 00:05:01.189 --> 00:05:03.529 evaporator. So this will be called an adaptive 00:05:03.529 --> 00:05:07.790 control. It adapts to changes in load. And I 00:05:07.790 --> 00:05:10.009 think one of the misunderstood components of 00:05:10.009 --> 00:05:12.980 that is that sensing bulb. A lot of technicians 00:05:12.980 --> 00:05:15.939 have never been explained that that sensing bulb 00:05:15.939 --> 00:05:19.660 actually has our refrigerant in it. It has a 00:05:19.660 --> 00:05:21.899 charge of refrigerant, and that's the correlation 00:05:21.899 --> 00:05:24.000 with the pressure. When we look at the temperature 00:05:24.000 --> 00:05:26.480 -pressure relationship of refrigerants, we know 00:05:26.480 --> 00:05:28.800 that as temperature increases, so does our pressure. 00:05:28.959 --> 00:05:31.620 As temperature decreases, so does our pressure. 00:05:31.759 --> 00:05:35.699 And so we're utilizing that function via our 00:05:35.699 --> 00:05:39.680 sensing bulb. In fact, you can say all the magic 00:05:39.680 --> 00:05:43.879 happens in the sensing bulb. 100 % is what determines 00:05:43.879 --> 00:05:46.120 how that valve operates. Do you want to open 00:05:46.120 --> 00:05:48.139 slow? Do you want to close fast? Do you want 00:05:48.139 --> 00:05:51.240 to open quick on low temp? How do you want to 00:05:51.240 --> 00:05:54.000 make that work, right? Because there's a mixture 00:05:54.000 --> 00:05:57.319 of secret sauce in these bulbs. It's not just 00:05:57.319 --> 00:06:00.060 refrigerant because remember, the pressure temperature 00:06:00.060 --> 00:06:03.180 relationship is not stable. it is different at 00:06:03.180 --> 00:06:04.879 low temperature compared to high temperature 00:06:04.879 --> 00:06:07.939 so your drift would be massive between superheat 00:06:07.939 --> 00:06:10.220 and opening if you just have refrigerant we put 00:06:10.220 --> 00:06:12.660 a whole bunch of stuff in there and then we can 00:06:12.660 --> 00:06:14.699 limit the amount of liquid to make it what we 00:06:14.699 --> 00:06:17.990 would call a limited opening valve right so you 00:06:17.990 --> 00:06:20.110 don't overload the compressor we can put a piece 00:06:20.110 --> 00:06:22.709 of charcoal in there carbon so that it releases 00:06:22.709 --> 00:06:25.850 slowly so that it doesn't sure there's all kinds 00:06:25.850 --> 00:06:29.069 of things we can do it all depends on what you're 00:06:29.069 --> 00:06:31.310 trying to achieve ice machines are a good example 00:06:31.310 --> 00:06:35.050 ice machines have a very specific charge to adapt 00:06:35.050 --> 00:06:38.769 to how the evaporator temperature changes in 00:06:38.769 --> 00:06:41.449 an ice machine it starts high when you first 00:06:41.449 --> 00:06:44.110 bring water in and then it drops rapidly right 00:06:44.110 --> 00:06:47.769 at harvest time And you have to not underfeed 00:06:47.769 --> 00:06:51.569 and you certainly can't overfeed. So we adapt 00:06:51.569 --> 00:06:54.050 the bulb charges for that very specifically. 00:06:54.269 --> 00:06:55.990 Sure. In fact, we have an ice machine charge 00:06:55.990 --> 00:06:59.470 for the bulb charge. Okay. Very cool. Yeah. So 00:06:59.470 --> 00:07:01.850 that it's not as fast and swift as a modulation. 00:07:02.149 --> 00:07:05.810 Correct. Completely makes sense. All right. So, 00:07:05.949 --> 00:07:10.509 you know, the reason we went from. fixed orifice 00:07:10.509 --> 00:07:13.990 metering devices into these, you know, adjusting 00:07:13.990 --> 00:07:17.350 was really kind of for performance and efficiency, 00:07:17.589 --> 00:07:20.209 correct? Yeah, there's a couple of things. Performance 00:07:20.209 --> 00:07:22.209 is definitely one of them and efficiency is another. 00:07:22.370 --> 00:07:25.930 Now, let's back up here a little bit. If you 00:07:25.930 --> 00:07:28.269 look at refrigeration compared to air conditioning, 00:07:28.589 --> 00:07:31.550 they're kind of a different way in which how 00:07:31.550 --> 00:07:35.310 the TXV fits into there and how they deal with 00:07:35.310 --> 00:07:37.629 changes in load. So let's take your household 00:07:37.629 --> 00:07:40.139 air conditioner, right? You have your thermostat 00:07:40.139 --> 00:07:42.519 on the wall. It's reading dry bulb temperature, 00:07:42.720 --> 00:07:44.959 so it's missing 50 % of the energy in the air, 00:07:45.040 --> 00:07:47.060 but that doesn't matter. It's measuring dry bulb. 00:07:47.800 --> 00:07:52.300 And it says, hey, right, I have a load in the 00:07:52.300 --> 00:07:54.920 house. It brings the system on. So it's probably 00:07:54.920 --> 00:07:59.220 energizing the coil of a low voltage relay coil, 00:07:59.480 --> 00:08:02.959 right? And it brings that compressor on. And 00:08:02.959 --> 00:08:05.040 then it runs happily and it says, hey, it's getting 00:08:05.040 --> 00:08:07.379 cool enough in here. So then it de -energizes 00:08:07.379 --> 00:08:10.019 that relay, the compressor turns off. That's 00:08:10.019 --> 00:08:12.800 not how it works in refrigeration, usually. In 00:08:12.800 --> 00:08:16.720 refrigeration, the thermostat controls a solenoid 00:08:16.720 --> 00:08:19.699 valve in the liquid line and it closes that solenoid 00:08:19.699 --> 00:08:22.199 valve. Everything is happily running because 00:08:22.199 --> 00:08:24.319 it's downstream. It doesn't know that yet, but 00:08:24.319 --> 00:08:26.399 suddenly the liquid stops flowing through the 00:08:26.399 --> 00:08:30.040 TXV and it stops flowing into the evaporator 00:08:30.040 --> 00:08:32.639 and the evaporator gets pumped down and your 00:08:32.639 --> 00:08:35.299 low pressure control, not safety, low pressure 00:08:35.299 --> 00:08:39.539 control, then cuts that compressor off now here's 00:08:39.539 --> 00:08:40.559 where the difference between air conditioning 00:08:40.559 --> 00:08:44.440 refrigeration is in air conditioning you want 00:08:44.440 --> 00:08:47.740 that txv to stay closed because that's where 00:08:47.740 --> 00:08:50.220 a big chunk of your energy efficiency comes from 00:08:50.220 --> 00:08:53.159 is making sure that your high side stays high 00:08:53.159 --> 00:08:55.080 and your low side stays low because you don't 00:08:55.080 --> 00:08:56.779 want them to equalize because you have to spend 00:08:56.779 --> 00:09:00.899 all this energy getting them back in air conditioning 00:09:00.899 --> 00:09:04.340 keep in mind you have the evaporator pressure 00:09:04.340 --> 00:09:07.820 underneath the sensing bulb pressure on top, 00:09:08.000 --> 00:09:09.440 they're going to get pretty close to each other. 00:09:09.659 --> 00:09:13.679 But you've got your superheat spring, which is 00:09:13.679 --> 00:09:16.559 also an additional closing force. Those two, 00:09:16.700 --> 00:09:18.919 evaporator, superheat spring, is going to close 00:09:18.919 --> 00:09:21.500 that valve and keep it closed, right? And that 00:09:21.500 --> 00:09:24.059 way, you maintain that high pressure differential. 00:09:24.960 --> 00:09:27.700 Technically speaking, you could do the same thing 00:09:27.700 --> 00:09:30.340 with a piston, which is just an orifice, and 00:09:30.340 --> 00:09:33.039 put a solenoid valve in, all right? Right. And 00:09:33.039 --> 00:09:36.879 shut it down. So really, Six and one half dozen, 00:09:37.000 --> 00:09:38.740 but now you're adding something. You might as 00:09:38.740 --> 00:09:40.500 well just put a TXV in, right? Because it's the 00:09:40.500 --> 00:09:44.120 same idea. By the way, you know where the performance 00:09:44.120 --> 00:09:47.679 difference also comes from with a TXV versus 00:09:47.679 --> 00:09:51.820 a piston? I don't know. It's not as reliant on 00:09:51.820 --> 00:09:55.240 the outside ambient conditions. So what people 00:09:55.240 --> 00:09:58.120 don't realize is a piston and a TXV are backwards 00:09:58.120 --> 00:09:59.879 to each other when it comes to superheat and 00:09:59.879 --> 00:10:05.320 self -cooling. So if you look at a piston. If 00:10:05.320 --> 00:10:08.340 it's hot outside, you've got lots of condensing 00:10:08.340 --> 00:10:10.639 pressure. So it's just banging the refrigerant 00:10:10.639 --> 00:10:13.159 into the evaporator. So your evaporator superheat 00:10:13.159 --> 00:10:16.080 is very low on a hot day outside. That seems 00:10:16.080 --> 00:10:20.460 weird, right? That's great. What happens if it's 00:10:20.460 --> 00:10:24.220 raining outside and it's wet inside and it's 00:10:24.220 --> 00:10:26.980 not that hot outside? Now you really don't have 00:10:26.980 --> 00:10:29.620 any flow into your evaporator. So how are you 00:10:29.620 --> 00:10:32.480 going to remove all of this humidity in the air? 00:10:33.000 --> 00:10:35.519 right if you don't have that mass flow through 00:10:35.519 --> 00:10:39.899 your evaporator the txv unless it's freezing 00:10:39.899 --> 00:10:43.580 cold outside it's going to have enough high side 00:10:43.580 --> 00:10:46.580 pressure it's going to open up because it sees 00:10:46.580 --> 00:10:49.480 that latent heat that humidity it doesn't care 00:10:49.480 --> 00:10:51.980 if it's humidity or sensible it's going to treat 00:10:51.980 --> 00:10:53.860 it as load and it's going to open up and deal 00:10:53.860 --> 00:10:56.659 with that and so you get much better dehumidification 00:10:56.659 --> 00:11:01.279 with a txv than you would with a piston. Now, 00:11:01.299 --> 00:11:03.440 your household air conditioning is not the best 00:11:03.440 --> 00:11:06.519 way to deal with dehumidification unless it's 00:11:06.519 --> 00:11:09.000 loaded all the time, like Florida or Texas or 00:11:09.000 --> 00:11:11.659 someplace like that. But where I live, there's 00:11:11.659 --> 00:11:14.799 always these off cycles and ASHRAE says, oh, 00:11:15.019 --> 00:11:17.980 this ain't going to work very well. You need 00:11:17.980 --> 00:11:21.139 a secondary dehumidifier. So that's why you put 00:11:21.139 --> 00:11:22.960 that thing in your basement that runs and then 00:11:22.960 --> 00:11:24.720 shuts off and you forget to empty it all the 00:11:24.720 --> 00:11:28.629 time. Right. Unless you're like my son and you 00:11:28.629 --> 00:11:30.490 just run it down to like 65 degrees. Yeah, if 00:11:30.490 --> 00:11:32.509 you want to hang meat in the place, you can dehumidify 00:11:32.509 --> 00:11:34.669 it really good. But your electricity bill is 00:11:34.669 --> 00:11:39.529 probably going to be a little unconcerned. Yeah, 00:11:39.590 --> 00:11:43.769 exactly. So tell me about a new generation, the 00:11:43.769 --> 00:11:46.870 TR6 valve. Tell me a little bit about that. So 00:11:46.870 --> 00:11:52.470 with Danfoss, we have really focused on manufacturers' 00:11:52.909 --> 00:11:54.730 OEMs. And this is not a surprise to anybody. 00:11:55.320 --> 00:11:57.299 and there's always been some frustration but 00:11:57.299 --> 00:11:59.460 the reality is we're an engineering company and 00:11:59.460 --> 00:12:01.759 we speak manufacturer's language and we talked 00:12:01.759 --> 00:12:04.159 about sensitive we talk about compressors whatever 00:12:04.159 --> 00:12:07.360 you know if the engineers at a manufacturer need 00:12:07.360 --> 00:12:09.759 information they want to work with somebody we're 00:12:09.759 --> 00:12:11.440 those people so we'll go in there and design 00:12:11.440 --> 00:12:13.480 things and come up with products specific for 00:12:13.480 --> 00:12:17.559 them that do a very good job where we need we 00:12:17.559 --> 00:12:19.639 recognize we need to do better is servicing that 00:12:19.639 --> 00:12:22.419 aftermarket because now the installed base is 00:12:22.419 --> 00:12:25.600 massive millions of compressors we've sold and 00:12:25.600 --> 00:12:28.639 millions of txvs it's insane how much market 00:12:28.639 --> 00:12:32.679 share we have so now that product is starting 00:12:32.679 --> 00:12:35.360 to age out where it's going to need replacement 00:12:35.360 --> 00:12:39.220 and so this is where you get a little bit creative 00:12:39.220 --> 00:12:44.039 and universality is a big big deal in the aftermarket 00:12:44.480 --> 00:12:47.039 If you can have one code instead of five codes 00:12:47.039 --> 00:12:49.500 on your truck or your shelf, you've effectively 00:12:49.500 --> 00:12:52.360 taken that real estate space and increased the 00:12:52.360 --> 00:12:55.080 value of it. It's real estate value that everybody 00:12:55.080 --> 00:12:57.019 wants, whether it's on a truck or on a shelf. 00:12:57.120 --> 00:12:59.360 How many turns am I going to get? How much money 00:12:59.360 --> 00:13:01.159 am I going to make off of this compared to somebody 00:13:01.159 --> 00:13:04.120 else's product? So you're being compared to your 00:13:04.120 --> 00:13:07.120 competitor as far as that's concerned. So if 00:13:07.120 --> 00:13:11.159 you can take a valve like the TR6 valve, which 00:13:11.159 --> 00:13:14.529 is a... valve that we sell millions of a year 00:13:14.529 --> 00:13:16.970 into the light commercial residential market. 00:13:17.509 --> 00:13:20.129 And the OEMs want a very specific product because 00:13:20.129 --> 00:13:23.289 it has to be tested for utmost efficiency. But 00:13:23.289 --> 00:13:25.990 the aftermarket is a different game. The aftermarket 00:13:25.990 --> 00:13:28.970 wants it to work. It wants it to work well enough 00:13:28.970 --> 00:13:31.090 that people are going to be happy. But at the 00:13:31.090 --> 00:13:34.669 same time, it wants flexibility. So if you come 00:13:34.669 --> 00:13:36.610 out with a code and you can put the different 00:13:36.610 --> 00:13:39.289 connectors for that, let's say you put the TXV 00:13:39.289 --> 00:13:41.559 in the box. And you have different connectors. 00:13:41.639 --> 00:13:43.340 You have chat lift and arrow quip or whatever. 00:13:43.600 --> 00:13:45.539 And then you put the insulation tape and the 00:13:45.539 --> 00:13:48.019 bulbs drop. That's pretty standard. But remember 00:13:48.019 --> 00:13:50.860 how I said the sensing bulb charge is the secret 00:13:50.860 --> 00:13:54.399 sauce? What we did was we came up with a bulb 00:13:54.399 --> 00:13:59.139 charge so that the TXV will work with 410A, 454B, 00:13:59.320 --> 00:14:04.440 and R32. Oh, okay. Now you're getting somewhere. 00:14:04.759 --> 00:14:08.200 This just takes that universal aftermarket replacement 00:14:08.200 --> 00:14:11.289 one step further. And you can do the same thing 00:14:11.289 --> 00:14:14.809 with scroll compressors, right? Pistons are a 00:14:14.809 --> 00:14:17.350 little bit easier, but scrolls have a fixed compression 00:14:17.350 --> 00:14:21.090 ratio. So you can't just dump any refrigerant 00:14:21.090 --> 00:14:22.809 in there because it's all going to get compressed 00:14:22.809 --> 00:14:25.610 the same amount, right? It's not going to adapt. 00:14:25.850 --> 00:14:30.450 So what we did was we have 410A and 454B universal 00:14:30.450 --> 00:14:33.549 scrolls. You can't do R32 in there without a 00:14:33.549 --> 00:14:35.610 lot of work because the pressures just aren't 00:14:35.610 --> 00:14:38.929 going to work out for you. And so... This is 00:14:38.929 --> 00:14:41.970 kind of where this whole game is played. So with 00:14:41.970 --> 00:14:46.570 TXVs, the easiest way to do this, to get business, 00:14:46.850 --> 00:14:50.009 is that here's what you have installed. You got 00:14:50.009 --> 00:14:52.610 all these OEM code numbers. Here's what you need 00:14:52.610 --> 00:14:55.289 to replace all of those. And you simplify it 00:14:55.289 --> 00:14:58.129 as much as possible. As long as it's got to work, 00:14:58.309 --> 00:15:01.070 it has to be happy because nobody wants to install 00:15:01.070 --> 00:15:04.690 something and then regret it, right? This is 00:15:04.690 --> 00:15:07.129 where you have that balance. It's a little bit 00:15:07.129 --> 00:15:08.929 more like the Wild West. It's a little bit of, 00:15:08.990 --> 00:15:10.730 we could never sell a product like this to a 00:15:10.730 --> 00:15:13.450 manufacturer. They throw you at the door, right? 00:15:13.769 --> 00:15:17.169 Yeah, they want very, very specific. Sometimes 00:15:17.169 --> 00:15:20.289 ridiculously so, but it works for them. But in 00:15:20.289 --> 00:15:22.909 the aftermarket, it's a whole other thing, you 00:15:22.909 --> 00:15:26.389 know, because time is money. And so if you have 00:15:26.389 --> 00:15:28.330 the product and you can service it right away, 00:15:28.429 --> 00:15:30.629 that's a massive service you're doing to your 00:15:30.629 --> 00:15:32.789 customer. And it's a massive cost saving as well. 00:15:34.120 --> 00:15:36.100 Yeah. Well, I look at it from, you know, from 00:15:36.100 --> 00:15:38.779 that universality. You know, I was a contractor. 00:15:38.879 --> 00:15:41.179 I worked at a distributor for many years. You 00:15:41.179 --> 00:15:43.899 know, if I can keep universal parts around that 00:15:43.899 --> 00:15:46.980 can serve my customer very well in a variety 00:15:46.980 --> 00:15:48.480 of different applications, that's what I want 00:15:48.480 --> 00:15:50.960 to keep around. And that was one of the big concerns 00:15:50.960 --> 00:15:52.840 as we started making this refrigerant transition. 00:15:53.240 --> 00:15:55.159 You know, of course, the very first topic that 00:15:55.159 --> 00:15:56.919 we started hearing, oh, the pressures are going 00:15:56.919 --> 00:15:59.679 to be different again. Well. they're they're 00:15:59.679 --> 00:16:01.679 close they're different but they're close and 00:16:01.679 --> 00:16:04.120 then oh now we're going to have all these different 00:16:04.120 --> 00:16:05.600 parts that we're going to have to keep around 00:16:05.600 --> 00:16:09.120 and so when we start looking at a valve that 00:16:09.120 --> 00:16:13.159 is designed to fit those two different generations 00:16:13.159 --> 00:16:17.299 of refrigerants right our r410a as well as our 00:16:17.299 --> 00:16:20.500 r32 and r454b i think it's gonna be critical 00:16:20.500 --> 00:16:23.019 that we start looking at components like this 00:16:23.019 --> 00:16:27.029 that are easy to stock easy to use solves a lot 00:16:27.029 --> 00:16:30.070 of problems and it just simplifies the whole 00:16:30.070 --> 00:16:32.690 transition we're all trying to help make this 00:16:32.690 --> 00:16:36.409 transition smoother and this is one of the ways 00:16:36.409 --> 00:16:38.470 well whoever comes up with the best solution 00:16:38.470 --> 00:16:40.710 to me this if you want to call it capitalism 00:16:40.710 --> 00:16:42.889 or whatever but whoever comes up with the best 00:16:42.889 --> 00:16:45.710 solution that works they're the ones that are 00:16:45.710 --> 00:16:48.509 going to win right so if you can provide the 00:16:48.509 --> 00:16:51.539 service and the solution for people And let people, 00:16:51.600 --> 00:16:54.279 I often joke that Dan Foss loves to make great 00:16:54.279 --> 00:16:56.480 products and not tell anybody about them because 00:16:56.480 --> 00:16:59.860 we are a very conservative company that way. 00:17:00.759 --> 00:17:04.619 Advertise, advertise. I guess, yeah, we probably 00:17:04.619 --> 00:17:06.480 should advertise that we have this right kind 00:17:06.480 --> 00:17:09.240 of thing. So as much as you joke, we are not 00:17:09.240 --> 00:17:11.400 good at that side of the business, right? But 00:17:11.400 --> 00:17:14.809 we need to get better. Well, I'll be happy to 00:17:14.809 --> 00:17:16.269 help that because there's going to be a lot of 00:17:16.269 --> 00:17:18.930 contractors, you know, as we move into these 00:17:18.930 --> 00:17:20.910 generations of refrigerants that, you know, that's 00:17:20.910 --> 00:17:23.950 a common part to keep around. So, I mean, as 00:17:23.950 --> 00:17:26.049 a contractor, are there any things that I really 00:17:26.049 --> 00:17:29.329 need to know about or, you know, have we kind 00:17:29.329 --> 00:17:31.230 of really went through that? Yeah, I mean, you 00:17:31.230 --> 00:17:33.990 have to understand that the refrigerants are 00:17:33.990 --> 00:17:36.109 different from each other. I mean, in the sense 00:17:36.109 --> 00:17:38.910 that it's kind of like you take a couple of refrigerants, 00:17:38.910 --> 00:17:41.400 you mix them together. And then you kind of change 00:17:41.400 --> 00:17:43.299 that ratio and add something else. That's really 00:17:43.299 --> 00:17:47.200 all these are. These are not new creations. It's 00:17:47.200 --> 00:17:48.880 kind of like you take some of this, some of this, 00:17:48.880 --> 00:17:50.660 and some of this, and you mix it together. Well, 00:17:50.779 --> 00:17:53.160 let me try mixing this together. And so that's 00:17:53.160 --> 00:17:55.779 where the chemistry comes in. But inside the 00:17:55.779 --> 00:17:58.900 system, they act differently. And we all have 00:17:58.900 --> 00:18:02.079 tools now. Dan Foss, Emerson, Sporting. We have 00:18:02.079 --> 00:18:06.220 tools now that will tell you, okay, if I switch 00:18:06.220 --> 00:18:08.970 from this refrigerant to this refrigerant. You 00:18:08.970 --> 00:18:10.930 can go through all the components. We have what's 00:18:10.930 --> 00:18:13.230 called our cool selector, a cool selector software. 00:18:13.470 --> 00:18:15.769 You can download it. It's free. There's no spyware 00:18:15.769 --> 00:18:19.769 in it, trust me. So you can download this, and 00:18:19.769 --> 00:18:22.549 it will tell you what's the capacity change in 00:18:22.549 --> 00:18:25.049 that TXV, what's the capacity change in that 00:18:25.049 --> 00:18:27.569 simple line component, like a solenoid valve. 00:18:28.049 --> 00:18:30.130 Some of these are suddenly going to become oversized, 00:18:30.190 --> 00:18:33.230 because think about it. That solenoid valve, 00:18:33.450 --> 00:18:36.779 unless it's tiny, it's pilot -operated. And if 00:18:36.779 --> 00:18:38.839 it's pilot operated, it needs a minimum pressure 00:18:38.839 --> 00:18:42.019 drop across it in order to work. It's about a 00:18:42.019 --> 00:18:44.920 half a pound. All right. So if you're suddenly 00:18:44.920 --> 00:18:48.500 getting 25 percent more capacity and this stuff 00:18:48.500 --> 00:18:50.700 happens with these new refrigerants through your 00:18:50.700 --> 00:18:53.359 solenoid valve and your solenoid valve already 00:18:53.359 --> 00:18:56.420 on the edge of being too big. Now it's going 00:18:56.420 --> 00:18:58.299 to become erratic because it's going to have 00:18:58.299 --> 00:19:01.119 too low of a pressure drop to assist that opening 00:19:01.119 --> 00:19:03.859 and it's going to stick and it's going to cause 00:19:03.859 --> 00:19:07.279 grief. right all across the board and so these 00:19:07.279 --> 00:19:10.859 are the kinds of things where it's not difficult 00:19:10.859 --> 00:19:14.119 you just need the information to look at it and 00:19:14.119 --> 00:19:16.099 so we're all putting this material out there 00:19:16.099 --> 00:19:19.700 the idea is where is it how do you find it the 00:19:19.700 --> 00:19:24.680 wholesaler right really is the key to this the 00:19:24.680 --> 00:19:28.450 wholesaler Because as a manufacturer, Dan Foss 00:19:28.450 --> 00:19:30.630 does not have that relationship with the contractors. 00:19:30.910 --> 00:19:33.269 That's the wholesaler. So working with the wholesalers, 00:19:33.289 --> 00:19:35.130 educating them, providing them with the resources 00:19:35.130 --> 00:19:37.750 so that they can in turn go out and support their 00:19:37.750 --> 00:19:40.430 customers. That's how I'm going to win right 00:19:40.430 --> 00:19:43.369 in the aftermarket is making sure that the wholesalers 00:19:43.369 --> 00:19:45.529 have all the information and resources they need. 00:19:45.970 --> 00:19:48.210 At the same time, you also have to help them 00:19:48.210 --> 00:19:50.930 by creating pull. right and this is what we're 00:19:50.930 --> 00:19:53.049 doing today helps out where people are aware 00:19:53.049 --> 00:19:56.809 these products exist and they can say hey i heard 00:19:56.809 --> 00:19:59.049 some dude from danfoss talking about a universal 00:19:59.049 --> 00:20:02.490 tr6 valve right what do you know about it oh 00:20:02.490 --> 00:20:05.029 we have them right over here right and so you 00:20:05.029 --> 00:20:07.369 kind of close close that whole loop in this thing 00:20:07.369 --> 00:20:10.730 you know from start to finish and that's how 00:20:10.730 --> 00:20:13.680 you play the game in this one Yeah, no, absolutely. 00:20:14.119 --> 00:20:16.799 And it's a great solution. I encourage everyone 00:20:16.799 --> 00:20:19.539 to spend a little time, head over to DanFoss 00:20:19.539 --> 00:20:23.079 .com, learn about the products, the TR6, and 00:20:23.079 --> 00:20:24.900 check with your local distributor. If they're 00:20:24.900 --> 00:20:27.859 not already handling it, say, hey, Dan Foss has 00:20:27.859 --> 00:20:30.059 got a universal valve out here that I want you 00:20:30.059 --> 00:20:33.299 to stock for in the future. And I'll about guarantee 00:20:33.299 --> 00:20:35.279 they're going to be looking forward to that. 00:20:35.799 --> 00:20:38.579 And we have a lot of smart guys who pretend to 00:20:38.579 --> 00:20:40.460 be account managers, sales guys, and they're 00:20:40.460 --> 00:20:42.200 actually engineers and technical people like 00:20:42.200 --> 00:20:46.119 me. We're more than happy to work with the wholesaler, 00:20:46.119 --> 00:20:50.220 come out and put training on. We have all kinds 00:20:50.220 --> 00:20:53.460 of training. Most of it is how to reduce callbacks, 00:20:53.640 --> 00:20:57.400 technical training, troubleshoot training, systematic 00:20:57.400 --> 00:21:00.319 startup, things like that where you're saving 00:21:00.319 --> 00:21:02.920 time and you don't have to drive back to the 00:21:02.920 --> 00:21:05.029 job site to fix something when you're done. So 00:21:05.029 --> 00:21:06.750 that's and that's, again, kind of where this 00:21:06.750 --> 00:21:08.690 all comes down to. And we're more than happy 00:21:08.690 --> 00:21:10.990 to share this with you and take your crew through 00:21:10.990 --> 00:21:13.569 it. So there's a there's a cheap plug for me 00:21:13.569 --> 00:21:15.789 on this one. No, it should be. I mean, that's 00:21:15.789 --> 00:21:17.150 the reason that we're here. You know, it's about 00:21:17.150 --> 00:21:20.109 solving problems, creating solutions and getting 00:21:20.109 --> 00:21:22.890 you the contact to learn more to make sure that 00:21:22.890 --> 00:21:26.029 we're all successful. Jamie Kitchen, I am sure 00:21:26.029 --> 00:21:28.170 grateful for you and Dan Foss hanging out with 00:21:28.170 --> 00:21:30.009 us. And I look forward to some deeper conversations 00:21:30.009 --> 00:21:32.430 in the future. I hope so, because they're kind 00:21:32.430 --> 00:21:34.009 of just scratching the surface there, and I have 00:21:34.009 --> 00:21:35.630 to kind of hold back, because I could talk all 00:21:35.630 --> 00:21:39.789 day about this. I love it. Part two. Like that? 00:21:40.029 --> 00:21:42.690 I said part two, coming to a podcast. Yeah, exactly. 00:21:43.490 --> 00:21:47.829 Oh, absolutely. Again, whatever you guys want 00:21:47.829 --> 00:21:49.910 to hear out there, let us know, because we're 00:21:49.910 --> 00:21:54.500 more than happy to discuss it. Love it. Actually, 00:21:54.579 --> 00:21:56.339 I was talking about this is my show. I'm sorry. 00:21:57.019 --> 00:21:59.220 No, you are. I mean, that's the whole point of 00:21:59.220 --> 00:22:00.839 making a show. I have a podcast, too, taking 00:22:00.839 --> 00:22:02.559 the temperature on HVAC. Tell me a little bit 00:22:02.559 --> 00:22:04.099 about your podcast before we hop out of here. 00:22:05.200 --> 00:22:08.700 Same thing. I bring guests on. A lot of them 00:22:08.700 --> 00:22:12.099 are from within Danfoss, smart guys. I also reach 00:22:12.099 --> 00:22:15.420 out to external people. who are on the tools, 00:22:15.619 --> 00:22:18.400 who are on the design side, or even run their 00:22:18.400 --> 00:22:21.339 own businesses and own podcasts and kind of deep 00:22:21.339 --> 00:22:23.059 into the dive into that. And it's called Taking 00:22:23.059 --> 00:22:26.099 the Temperature on HVACR. And really, we're just 00:22:26.099 --> 00:22:28.880 looking at different things. And it's very, what's 00:22:28.880 --> 00:22:33.259 the word I'm looking for? Easy going. it's like 00:22:33.259 --> 00:22:35.440 a conversation like we're having today where 00:22:35.440 --> 00:22:37.380 we dive through different topics. We have a couple 00:22:37.380 --> 00:22:40.420 of laughs. We usually realize that we learned 00:22:40.420 --> 00:22:42.400 more than we, than we thought we were going to, 00:22:42.420 --> 00:22:44.740 or we know less than we thought we did. It's 00:22:44.740 --> 00:22:46.619 all of these things can happen. So I hope you 00:22:46.619 --> 00:22:49.420 can tune in and listen to us when you're driving 00:22:49.420 --> 00:22:52.119 in traffic sometime with nowhere to go. Love 00:22:52.119 --> 00:22:54.759 it. All right. Well, we thank you all for joining 00:22:54.759 --> 00:22:56.599 us and we'll catch you all on the next episode. 00:22:57.339 --> 00:22:58.319 Thank you very much.