All right, everyone. Thank you for joining us
once again on Did You Know, the ESCO HVAC podcast.
So we are spending some time at the Allied Air
DSR conference. And Brandon, how's it going?
Good, good. You know, we kind of chatted before
we got here, kind of talking about like what
topics we wanted to dive into. Because really,
you know, we're here at the conference. It's
a whole bunch of, you know, DSRs that are, you
know, learning the newest technologies, getting
comfortable with our new refrigerants and the
refrigerant detection. And so there's like all
this new buzz stuff, right? But I think kind
of at the heart, it like comes back down to the
basics, doesn't it? It always does. That's why
I like HVAC. Yeah. Because it's complicated.
but it's simple at the same time right physics
if you follow the rules and do everything right
everything works right yeah and it all starts
with the basics man just clean installs following
all the rules and uh that ensures that the equipment
works that's it i mean when we look at like the
practices that we're using the same practice
we've been using for 50 70 years It really comes
down to those right installations. Even when
we make these refrigerant transitions, like we
talk about here at Esco all the time, we don't
care if the next refrigerant's milk. We're just
going to learn how to work on it. Yeah, it's
still the refrigeration cycle. That's right.
You still have to run nitrogen while you're brazing.
All the rules still apply. It's just they become
so much more important. Everything's becoming
more efficient. More efficient means tighter
tolerances. We don't have that fudge factor anymore.
No. There's no room for that. No. I mean, let's
be honest. Like, what's the whole purpose of
a filter dryer? It's to clean up a bad install.
That is it. Yeah. If it was done right, we wouldn't
even need it. I mean, we see that now in our
VRF equipment. Exactly. I mean, think about like
a VRF, right? It's designed to have screens to
help. protect an electronic expansion valve from
debris in a catastrophic failure right that's
really it that's it because otherwise we don't
need it right if there's no moisture air introduced
or any contaminations condensables introduced
into a system then we don't really need that
filter in there right and so we've gotten used
to using those and installing those as a preventative
but Now we're getting to a point where we're
doing a lot more ductless installations. We're
doing a lot of inverter installations. And I
think it's critical for us to understand that
our installation really determines the life expectancy
of the equipment. 100%. Yeah. I mean, and overall
capacity. Yes. I mean, that's a huge thing. Right.
You know, I work for Thomas Somerville. Yeah.
So they've been in business since Lincoln was
president. Oh, wow. that's crazy to think about
yeah it started off as a foundry but we've been
doing hvac for 25 years now and formerly i was
a customer of theirs okay and uh you know just
it's it's a lot running a business helping run
a business what have you and uh i needed to change
right so they were like man we'd love to have
somebody like you yeah it's got the experience
has already been out in the field knows what
it's like knows how to communicate to people
yeah and that's that's what it was they Pretty
much approached me, telling me, like, they wanted
to do something different. Yeah. And really support
our customers. And, man, learning, one, I was
worried that I'd lose my edge. Yeah. Like, if
I'm not out there working. Yeah, if I'm not in
the field, can I stick with it? Yeah, I thought
I'd lose it. But, I mean, sharper than ever.
Yeah. But really, it shed a light on how much,
like, the industry is really hurting in an aspect.
Just people not. Knowing what they're doing,
thinking they're just going to braze a unit in,
turn it on and walk away. And that's not how
the equipment is these days. No, unfortunately,
back in the R22 days, a lot of bad habits were
masked by the equipment, right? You know, there
was just enough. fudge factor allowed in them
that they could still run it may not be running
great but they would still run but as we've you
know changed compressor types and oil types and
refrigerant types metering devices and we're
using so many more you know new very sophisticated
controls thermistors pressure transducers things
that are more critical in the system it really
gets back to we have to master the basics for
sure i mean so commonly uh i take a ton of tech
support calls. Yeah. Not to say that our customers
don't know what they're doing or anything, but
I mean, at the end of the day, a lot of them,
you know, it's an aging industry. Oh yeah. And
no, they're not used to seeing inverters and
communication boards and transducers. So when
they get a problem and something doesn't perform
the way they expect it to, it's immediately like
overload. Right. And they call. And nine times
out of ten, one of the first things I walk someone
through is just setting up proper airflow. Yeah,
absolutely. I mean, we're not just a PSC motor
with two or three speeds. Everyone assumes that
it comes in cooling speed and it's ready to roll.
Everyone, yes. So, I mean, like I said, it's
the basics. I spend most of my days going over
static pressure, how to use a volometer, checking
your sub -cooling. And when we're checking sub
-cooling, Are we in a Y1? Are we fully staged
up? Yeah, are you running 100 %? It's all day,
every day. So what are the most common tech support
calls that you're getting? So with the refrigerant
change, as Kyle Brown of Allied says, these instruction
manuals become knee pads. And people tend to
look at them. And so a lot of it is just common
setup. Like our RDS board, you've got to flip
a dip switch. You want to let it know that there's
a sensor there. I can't tell you the endless
amount of calls we've received just on, yeah,
this board's blinking red. And it's just turning
on a dip switch. And, I mean, you look like Rockstar
because in two seconds you can tell them, hey,
turn on this dip switch. Page 26, paragraph 3,
line 2. Here's the big, bold words that are telling
you that yet no one actually is looking. Yeah,
I mean, and at the end of the day, I mean. I
did a lot of high -end work when I was in the
field, a lot of very complicated machines, and
I stressed over. I would sit there and read manuals
a week before I have to go do my install. Absolutely.
It's just that doesn't seem to be the common
trend these days. No, and it's sad because that
really is what makes a good technician, right?
You know, I didn't go to trade school myself.
I didn't learn. good practices until later in
life, right? So I had to learn along the way.
Later, I went back, you know, to trade schools
to take classes and get better at what I'm doing.
I followed the same path. Yeah, you know, I wanted
to get better. But what I found was I had gotten
myself to a pretty decent point because I read
manuals. That was it. Yeah, man. It wasn't like
I was going home and reading, you know, Modern
Refrigeration. I mean, I use it as a reference
or, you know. air conditioning, refrigerating
technology. But I mean, things like what you're
doing right now, this podcast, the podcast, the
things on YouTube, like you can gain a wealth
of information just by watching your phone a
lot. But then you go and start applying that
to real life situations and you're shocked with
what you find out. And yeah, I mean, that's a
big one. Commonly, I have a lot of people trying
to change TXVs. Oh my gosh. Often the call comes
in, well, I just changed this TXV. Right. And
it didn't fix the problem. Yeah, it's because
that wasn't the issue. Yeah, let's go back to
your root. Yeah, so a lot of it is just, and
I don't want to knock anyone. Everyone starts
at a different point. And I do find that our
customer base, it is starting to change. We are
getting some younger guys involved, and they're
all very thirsty. Yeah, they're hungry. Yeah,
our new technicians are hungry for information.
And that's why, you know, we just opened up a
new training lab in Seaford, Delaware. And we
are doing our best to set up scenarios, you know.
Right. Have blowers and show people what happens.
Some things that you'll find. Yeah, yeah. What
happens when you have high static to this motor?
How do you interpret that? And all the different
scenarios you can run into. Because everybody
just, and let's be honest, if you're in the HVAC
trade, you probably are a hands -on kind of person.
Oh, yeah. So to have that stuff hands -on live
to test, I feel like it's much easier to gain
the information and the right processes troubleshoot.
You're right. When we look at the generation
of young men and women coming into the industry,
they're coming in with a lot of intellectual
skills, a lot of technology, and what they're
hungry for is those mechanical skills. Sadly,
I was just sharing a story with a couple of other
guys out on break. I had my own son, 26 years
old, he's a firefighter. Pretty manly dude. We
were working on a project at his house that he
just bought. And I'm like, hey, son, I need you
to go cut this piece of wood. It's like an inch
and five sixteenths or something. And he's like,
where's that at? I'm like, what? And he's like,
where's that at? Which one of the marks is that?
I'm like, did I fail you? Did civilization fail
an entire generation or two? It almost seems
like it. I think we did. Yeah. it's bouncing
back from it yeah you know we are i really do
feel that way and i mean inevitably if you're
not out there learning and figuring this new
equipment out yeah you're gonna fail oh absolutely
because it's not gonna run no it's not gonna
operate as it should and you know especially
with you know we just left the refrigeration
uh class upstairs and with having that larger
temperature glide with 454b I mean, you start
topping off something like that, we shouldn't
be doing it to A2L refrigerators. We shouldn't
be doing it to anything. Anyhow, we should know
what's in it. Exactly. And the amount that that
changes its operation. I mean, two extra degrees
on that temperature glide, you're losing out
on 5 ,000 BTUs an hour. Isn't that crazy? It's
insane. Think about how quickly we can make that
system inefficient just by not being educated.
Yep. I mean, in startup, everybody wants to get
the – everybody felt like when you turn the unit
on, all right, it's time to pack up the tools.
Yeah. When no, we have to let it run. There's
a lot that's got to balance out. It needs to
run. It has to balance out. Yeah. You have to
take your readings. You have to, you know, do
the startup sheet that's in the back of the manual.
Right. You know, take that time. And it's a make
or break for the equipment for sure, especially
when it comes to longevity. sure so like on the
tech support side is that like what kind of information
are you requiring from technicians are you starting
to look for more information from them to be
able to help them out uh i'm always always modeling
serial number yeah i like to get my job info
and uh we now have a searchable logged where
if you've called before on a serial number i
can pull that up so that's that's huge oh cool
allied now has that as well i can pull that up
through allied as well Um, and then, yeah, I'm
always starting off incoming voltage. It's the
basics, you know, back to the basics. Yeah. It's
what's my power coming in? Where's it stopping
at? I'm recording my pressures, all my temperatures,
sub cooling, Delta T. Uh, and you know, the other
thing is too, we need to step it up. It's not
just. Okay, we took a static pressure reading.
How did you go about reading that? Right. Where
did you get it? Exactly. Yeah. I mean, I would
love to be able to have an air hood on every
job. It's not likely. No. But, I mean, I do know
companies that are out there doing it. Yeah.
And that's a much more efficient system. Yeah,
I've been seeing a lot of developments in airflow
measuring. We've seen a lot of companies starting
to produce things like the TruFlow grid. It does
a really good job measuring airflow. We're starting
to see a lot of the manufacturers calculating
airflow in their communicating thermostats and
their communicating systems. I mean, it's critical
because with these, especially with the inverters,
man, the airflow is off on them. People will
look at an ECM, constant airflow, and go, well,
it's a little forgiving. No, no, no, it's not.
something that's going to sacrifice you know
when it's fighting against pressure especially
with where i live on uh in maryland yeah you
know i know it's not florida but i mean we get
very humid days sure and if you don't have that
thing dialed in right you're not going to get
rid of the latent load at all absolutely you
know and and that's why i find a lot of so you
get calls tech support calls on that oh all the
time really and it's critical to do a manual
J man. Yeah. And not a lot of people are doing
it. No, I agree. I'd say most or not. And I find
that a lot of people really don't understand
what a manual J is. Yeah. I know that because
we will do manual J's for people if you provide
me with the right information. Oh, wow. Cool.
So many people will just give me a room. Yeah.
It's a, it's a square. Give me some dimensions.
No windows, no insulation, what's under it, what's
above it, nothing. So, wow. That just goes to
show you like, yeah, like. we have to do a better
job of getting that info out there. I mean, that's
what we're trying to do. And that's part of our
call log tracking. I also select what was the
root cause of the issue, what was the outcome,
and what was needed to get it right. Because
that way I can actually run a report in my system
and say, oh, well, so many of these calls were
airflow signals. Yeah, with this particular thing.
So many of these calls were TXVs. Right. And
then I can curtail what our training should be
for individual customers. Yeah. And, you know,
the technology these days, it's scary. But at
the same time, if you use it right. It's very
useful. Yeah, it really is. It really is. Yeah,
I get that. You know, one of the biggest things
like with the airflow with inverters is it even
it took me a little bit of rethinking. Right.
One of our old principles was, you know, if I'm
going to try to remove some latent. Right. I'm
going to reduce airflow. Slow it down. Yeah,
you don't do that on an inverter because now
we're going to reduce capacity. These things
are going to be floating on superheat. They're
going to be looking at discharge temperatures.
And so when we start reducing an airflow, all
we're doing is reducing capacity, which is even
further reducing dehumidification. So you're
right. The whole setup is crucial. going to classes
and learning about what's changing. We're going
to see a lot of contractors getting behind. So
what are you guys doing in the training realm?
I know you're here for training to learn what's
going on, to learn how to better serve the contractors
and your clientele. What do you guys do for training?
So, well, we also deal with... lg yeah any split
so i i run that class that's a service and install
class we do that every month in two separate
locations um and then once again we're actually
working on doing training specifically for our
customers requests once again using that uh call
log software that we have to like basically generate
a report yeah build what do we need and say what
do they need yeah and so nothing is really cookie
cutter we have our basic hey here's our allied
equipment These are the dip switch settings.
This is how we charge it. And it's all your basics.
Right. And then from there, it's more of a personal
touch. Yeah. Let's go a little deeper. What are
you missing? Exactly. What can I help you understand
that you don't currently quite know? And if the
owner of the company knows that off the bat,
great. Sure. We will curtail class for that.
Yep. But so many of them, you know, you hear.
Oh, well, these units, you know, all the TXVs
are bad. These are all the time. All of them.
That's what triggers us to say, okay, let's start
looking through some of these call logs and figure
out what's actually going on. Absolutely. Oh,
by the way, have you noticed that this crew,
every single system installed is getting these
same numbers? Maybe we should take a look and
see if they understand. tip switch setups for
airflow exactly i had that exact situation happen
where uh it was thrown up that all our txvs are
bad yeah i'm like well that doesn't make sense
given the number that we sell yeah so looking
through it going back through my call logs i
was like oh yeah i've talked to five of your
uppermost technicians and all five of them we
had to adjust airflow by two three 400 cfm wow
right So what does that tell you? Yeah. After
you've already changed your TXV. Yeah. So, yeah.
And, you know, it used to always be the comparison
of mini splits to unitary. Right. But now, I
mean. It's all in the same realm. I mean, what
do you think? 10 more years? 10 more years and
everything's an inverter? If that. I've already
seen one manufacturer that has flipped their
portfolio. They went from 80 % single stage and
20 stage and a 20 % inverter to a 20 % single
stage, two stage for contractor only and 80 %
inverter in one year. It's a no -brainer. We're
electrifying America. I don't see a lot of upgrades
on our grid anywhere. No, we're going to have
to modulate the load that we put on our grid.
Yeah, I'm like with you. I don't see new cables
getting ran. So it's like, yeah, well, we're
going to have to do something. An inverter is
a good fix for that. It is. But, I mean, that
also means we need good surge protection. And
surge protection is not voltage protection. Right.
Voltage, I mean, everybody seems to be getting
on board with installing that surge protector
with an inverter. Yeah. They forget about the
ECM fan. True. And why are those still inside
on its own circuit? Exactly. But on the other
side of that is that plus or minus 10 % of what
your nameplate voltage is. If you're not protecting
that unit from that. Yep. And then you get the
guy who's like, well, I had a surge protector
on. Why'd all these boards fry? And I just took
a call today sitting in class and he has 253
volts coming in. Wow. Yeah. And it fluctuates.
It fluctuates crazy. I mean, 20 -volt swings
on the regular. So if you're not doing that and
you're not protecting that, yeah, it's going
to have some problems. That's crazy. Yeah. So
where can we learn more about your company, what
you're doing in the industry? Well, we have a
TSEO online. Okay. I'm sorry, TSC online. Uh,
that's our website for all our products and stuff.
We tie in all our service manuals that we have
for the equipment there. Um, we do have a YouTube
channel and we're not posting everything yet,
but we are going to be doing some quick videos
and stuff like that on there. Just things that,
you know, if our customers have green guys guys
that are unfamiliar maybe they couldn't make
it to a training exactly bam they can watch that
video real quick and it would be product specific
yeah just not generalized yeah that product specific
training is going to be a big deal yeah exactly
cool um that and like i said uh we regularly
upon request i go out and do trainings all the
time so yeah we're just trying to be available
and that's the big thing i answer my phone Every
night, on the weekends. If I'm not doing a class
or already on a call, I answer my phone. I get
it. That's really what it's all about, man. They
don't always even need to get an answer. But
if they have someone to call, they seem to be.
It's moral support. That's what I love about
those calls. Yeah. Tech support is really more
about moral support. Yeah. I mean, I really love
the fact of how much they appreciate it. Oh,
absolutely. I literally had a customer tell me,
I was like, man. I was hesitant about starting
my own company, but I know with y 'all's team,
we'll take care of it. Nice. And it's nice to
see that. Yeah. I completely agree. Well, I appreciate
you joining us today. Yeah. Thank you.