Thank you so much for joining us on Did You Know,
the ESCO HVAC podcast. So today we're going to
be spending some time with our friends at the
newly organized Bosch Home Comfort Group. How
are you guys doing? Hey, doing great. Good morning.
Great. Matt Schlegel and Jason Carter are joining
us. We've had conversations before kind of based
on the Johnson Controls platform. Now we have
this amazing new organization that is going to
be merging technologies. All of our friends from
both sides are now going to be in one brand umbrella.
And so there's so many things for us to talk
about, so many products that are going to be
coming to market. fact that we're really merging
to bring technologies together. And one of the
things that we've discussed quite a bit in the
past is heat pumps and heat pumps, especially
in rooftop units, commercial package units. And
now we start looking at, well, what are some
solutions to really merge markets, right? A big
talk in the industry right now is dual fuel applications
because it helps satisfy both sides of the aisle.
Right. Because we've got a lot of I wouldn't
call it controversy or debate. I just call it
perspectives within the industry. Like we're
all trying to get to a place where we can manage
our energy consumption better. Right. And how
do we do that? And I personally, I like the whole
dual fuel applications. So let's talk about some
solutions in the in the dual fuel market, especially
when we get into the commercial side. Yeah, absolutely,
Clifton. I think you hit the nail on the head.
Controversial, maybe not the right decision,
but everyone's got an opinion. Everyone's got
kind of their viewpoint and what they want to
see going forward. And I think one of the things
we've really focused on is how can we provide
solutions that we can give to our customers today
instead of waiting for advanced development several
years down the road? Obviously, that work is
going to go on, too. But what can we get to our
customers today? it may be more importantly what
can we do that's going to be economically feasible
so one of the things that's great with a dual
fuel application is you're going to be seeing
existing technology. You're going to be seeing
the heat pumps that we use today, the furnaces
that we use today just combined in a way that
we haven't done before, which is going to be
not just a solution to provide decarbonization,
provide better efficiency, provide more options
in terms of how you're going to operate your
unit, but it's going to do it, like I said, in
an economically feasible way. That means that
decarbonization is not going to be an expensive
hurdle that even someone who's interested can't
get over that hurdle. One of the really cool
things with dual fuel is when we start looking
at energy management, most people don't realize
that in some locations, the electricity prices
fluctuates drastically throughout the day. And
so if we are actually looking at heating and
cooling from an energy perspective, especially
on the heating side, and we're trying to maximize
our efficiency, a lot of times it's... looking
at the utility cost for different times of the
day. Especially if I'm way out west, I could
have gas that's more efficient during one part
of the day and electricity that is more efficient
at another part of the day. And having that flexibility
to go in between, it's a big move when we start
looking at energy management. Yeah, agreed, Clifton.
You know, and so some of the things that us as
manufacturers want to do is we want customers
to feel comfortable with that and be able to
switch as needed. So controls become a big piece
of this so that you can switch seamlessly between
heat pump. and gas when it makes sense so we
set up the controls where you can do that and
then also bringing in some tools that help you
calculate that so you know so a customer can
put in all right my utility is this much if it's
natural gas or if it's electric, and you can
kind of make those decisions so that you can
run it the most efficiently as possible based
on utilities. But then also, you know, you can
look at, all right, if I have goals as far as
decarbonization, I can look at that as well,
which one makes the most sense. And then also
from an efficiency standpoint, you definitely
nailed it with. talking about the efficiencies
there, because that's going to play a big role
too. As we make this transition into these heat
pumps that can do colder climates, where are
we running the most efficient? And that obviously
translates into how much it costs a customer
to run that heat pump, or in this case, a dual
fuel type of heat pump. Yeah, you know, when
we look at like the driving forces behind these
transitions, there's a lot of things. You know,
we've got refrigerant transitions. We've got
regulatory transitions like through the technology
transition rule. We've got compliance for, you
know, local codes and regulations. We have electric
energy providers, the utilities that are looking
for better ways to manage, you know, energy utilization.
and we start looking at that whole comfort thing,
it really brings it into something that I've
been trying to help our educators understand
and especially contractors is that for a long
time, we always use the word balance point as
that point at which the... The load on the structure
is not being met by the equipment, and so we'll
change equipment to be able to meet that comfort.
But as we move into a new age, there's another
balance point that really needs to be discussed,
and it's that energy balance point. It's not
just about comfort anymore. It's about energy
consumption. Here in the United States, a lot
of homeowners struggle. with the algorithms and
the calculations that are designed by equipment
manufacturers abroad, because many of them are
based on set points that can go a little bit
more out of the... american comfort zone you
know we like for things to be like one degree
from set point right and a lot of places around
the world will allow that to go you know two
three four or five degrees away from set point
because of the energy right and so in america
we haven't really looked at that but i think
consumers are starting to be more aware of that
and and i feel and i'm curious are you seeing
more of a driving force for dual fuel coming
from the consumer as well So it's it's interesting.
I think there are a couple of major driving forces
when we put together a business case and we're
trying to figure out who's going to use this,
who wants it, who's really driving us. And in
this case, really driving us from a date perspective
to get it out as fast as possible. There are
going to be two kind of mainstreams that pushed
us. One is going to be in the consumer world.
particular regions have specifically pushed us,
and you alluded to it with utility companies,
there are some rebates out there for heat pumps,
for dual fuel heat pumps that are off the charts
massive. In the Northeast, there's a couple of
states that are going to have rebates, some going
up to $2 ,500 per ton. of a rebate for this.
So when you're looking at the unit and you're
looking at a rebate of that size, it is very
large. And then if you go north of the border
into Canada as well, we have partners in Canada
that have been working with us very closely,
really, really driving the need for dual fuel
again, because of rebates and because of local
municipal requirements, pushing government buildings,
pushing things to utilize heat pumps. And we
know those climates today, the solution has to
be dual fuel because they're simply not a cold
climate rooftop today that can operate in the
northeast, that can operate north of the border
in Canada. And then the other driver, though,
which is very interesting and we're very active
with is some of our national accounts. So we
have partners on the national account side. They
have footprints across the country. They have
their decarbonization goals, their energy goals.
And we know the HVAC system overall. rooftop
units play a big part in energy consumption and
in emissions. And so for some of our national
account partners, not necessarily the easiest
way, but the biggest bang for their buck to reduce
some of their carbon footprint, reduce their
emissions, is to work with us, the manufacturer,
the providers of HVAC, to make sure we give them
solutions that are going to help decrease their
footprint. So consumers are one part of it. Some
of it is, again, the social side wanting to uh
decrease their footprint some of it is the economics
and just the rebates that are out there uh but
then again a big push is from our national account
partners and what they're looking for from corporate
goals corporate synergy what they're looking
at and how we play as partners with them Yes.
On that corporate aspect, I guess I hadn't really
thought about that because, I mean, you have
some very, very large nationwide companies that
are focusing on their carbon credits, their carbon
footprint, goals as a company to reduce energy
consumption, to reduce their impact. And so they
are starting to include that into their budget.
You know, what can we do? And the HVAC system
is such a large consumer that, you know, as that
when I was a contractor, a technician, you know,
it always fathomed me that, you know, I would
be on these large commercial projects and, you
know, some of these multifacility projects and
every package unit was, you know, gas heat with
AC. Every one of them. And they do change out
projects and they put in a gas heat with AC and
you're looking at it going, you know, for not
very much more money, this system could actually
be running as a heat pump. And so it's nice to
see that we're finally getting to that point
where not just the consumer, but the corporate
America is very comfortable with transitioning
into heat pump technologies. And Clifton, I want
to mention, too, so you mentioned gas heat with
AC or AC with gas heat and change outs. And that's,
I think, one area, too, where dual fuel is very
important, because when we start looking at replacements,
we know the commercial rooftop market. I mean,
a vast majority of it is replacements. It's change
outs. And when you're replacing an AC with gas
heat and you want to move to heat pumps, if you're
in a climate where you need supplemental heating
in the past, a heat pump with electric heat.
you're looking at a pretty big infrastructure
change on that building. You're looking at changing
out your wire sizes, changing out breakers, pretty
much overhaul of the electrical because that
heat pump with electric heat backup has such
a higher requirement for your electrical load
that in the past, it really just wasn't feasible
unless you wanted to. double or triple the cost
of your replacement because you're paying for
upgrading all of your electrical systems and
not just the rooftop unit itself. So I think
that's one area, too, where some of our partners
have been very interested in dual fuel is it
allows them to bring heat pumps onto their roof
without having to go through those mass changes.
And when you look at some of the larger stores
out there, I mean, the cost to change out your
electric heat pump with electric heat backup
and a double trip. the cost of your project,
where with dual fuel, you can now not necessarily
have to upgrade your electrical, but you get
the benefits of the heat pump for, I'm not going
to say a majority, but for a lot of the heating
season where you're able to operate your heat
pump. Yeah, I've seen that myself in the residential
application. You know, just a couple of months
back, I'd completed an installation for my own
son, you know, purchased a purchased a home and
had a older gas furnace with, you know, single
stage gas furnace, single stage AC. And we actually
went with a York two stage gas furnace, two stage
heat pump. And what we're seeing on those analytics
that both his, you know, of course, we're not
into the gas season yet, but his electrical.
assumption is fractional already. And, you know,
it was a hundred amp service, you know, so it
was a home built in the 1950s. And so we looked
at, you know, what are your options? Can we go
with a super high efficient heat pump with a
little bit of electric resistance? Well, then
we're going to have to upgrade the electrical
panel as well as the electrical service to the
structure versus our two stage that is really
satisfied the demand for that. So I'm very anxious
to see. what our two stage gas application does
as we move into the winter. So we look at a commercial
application. We're really doing the same thing,
right? We're looking at an existing single stage
gas application and a single stage AC application.
So what are some of the solutions when we start
looking at those traditional system replacements
that were single stage heat, single stage cool?
Yeah, so it is. We've upgraded. Right. So we're
no longer having to do the single stage, everything.
And a lot of regulatory things in the regulatory
initiatives have started to influence that a
bit as well. As Matt said, as you said, rebates,
utilities drive some of that. But then also,
you know, from a regulatory standpoint, we've
had. We've had... requirements where we've had
to do more staging of cooling. And then along
with that, we've had to do more staging with
heating. And one of the exciting things I think
that we can do now with, you know, on the heat
side, talking about single stage is you can do
multiple stages on heating, on natural gas heating,
but then you can also do modulating. So talking
about comfort, talking about how we keep occupants
comfortable as we shift to heat pumps, that is
one of the things that we can do very easily,
but probably even more easily than looking at
an electric heater that you're trying to do some
kind of turndown with. You're able to do that
a lot easier with natural gas. again just being
able to to use the heat pump when it makes sense
using the mechanical heating when it makes sense
and then using the the gas when it makes sense
so you can pair them together gives you more
stages gives you more flexibility and really
is going to allow you to to not be stuck in that
world of single stage cooling single stage heating
you know now you're going to be able to stage
and and modulate in ways that you've never been
able to in the past and it's going to keep everyone
more comfortable it's going to save you money
and uh yeah i mean it's it really have a lot
of uh different options there when it when it
comes to that as opposed to in the past and and
really with with uh packaged rooftops it i i
think that it's even an easier uh you know you
were talking about the on the residential side
which thank you for buying york i appreciate
that uh and uh but it it is just such an easy
uh change out even compared to residential you
know you're you're able to upgrade um but you
don't have to go back and and look at refrigerant
piping uh you know and all those pieces you really
have a package that we've done all the engineering.
We've got all of it in a nice, neat package for
you to put on the roof. And a lot of times we
don't even have to go about. really messing with
the structure of the roof. We've got options
that allow you to replace existing units without
having to go with an adapter curb or rip out
the existing roof curb that is there. And you're
able just to really plug that unit in and take
the existing one that's... that's there, take
it off, put the new one on without having to
disturb the roof. And that can get really expensive
and then and then upgrade it. So now you've got
upgraded heating, upgraded Cooling. And as you
said, you know, being able to do more with it
than you were in the past where you're just stuck
with this single stage gas, single stage cooling
and really be able to make a difference for the
owner, the customer in the long run for doing
them a service. Yeah. You know, you're talking
about. the sizing and having multiple stages
and capacities. You know, one of the things that
was always of concern as a contractor when we
were looking at system design as well as system
replacement is, you know, the common starting
point for a package unit was in the five ton
range. and there were many applications where
i might need five ton on the coldest day but
majority of the time i'm not and so there are
so many oversized package units out in the world
right now that could really benefit from a multi
-stage cooling capability. And we've all been
into those, you know, those buildings, those
restaurants, those stores, when you walk in and,
you know, the air is just devastatingly cold
and you can hear it over everything in the room.
And many times it was just because of the application.
There might not have been a, say, three ton component
that had the gas heat capability that they needed.
So they went with the five ton with 100 ,000
or 120 ,000 BTUs. gas heat and it was just blasting
all the time, summer and winter versus now that
that business owner can actually have a quieter,
more comfortable space by adding some stages
to that. Absolutely. Very cool. What types of
capacities are we talking about? Like what type
of range of sizes are available with dual fuel
systems? Yeah. So the first product we've released
with dual fuel, it's our pro platform. Historically
under the York channel was predator, but, but,
you know, we had a name change a couple of years
ago. It's the pro platform. So the heat pumps,
they are going to run from six and a half to
12 and a half tons. And one of the great things.
So, like I said before. It's our current heat
pump design matched with our current furnace
design. So all of the gas heat options that you
have on the AC models today are going to be available
there. So stainless steel options, all of the
heat sizes in that 6 .5 to 12 .5 ton heat pump.
And the one other thing, just while we're talking
options added in, the other thing that we've
added alongside of dual fuel is our hot gas reheat
option. In the past, that's been consolidated
only to AC models. But we're really wanting to
open the door with heat pumps. broader application
we see hot gas reheat kind of pick up and dehumidification
pick up so we've made sure to introduce hot gas
reheat in this as well with this release. So
the pro platform is going to be six and a half
to 12 and a half tons. And we do have plans to
work on smaller tonnage equipment. It's not released
yet. So we'll have to kind of put an asterisk
by that and say it's coming, wait for it. But
today, six and a half to 12 and a half tons under
my product. And I can let Jason talk a little
bit more about choice in the larger tonnage.
Sure. Yeah, thanks, Matt. So with the Choice
product, it is a product that ranges from 12
.5 tons to 25 tons in the heat pump realm. And
so when we release it, it will have all of those
tonnages up to 25 tons. And we were one of the
first manufacturers to come out with a 25 -ton
heat pump. had them out in the market. They've
been run through the paces. And so now adding
the gas option to those heat pumps is just an
added plus. And then also with our product launch,
we will also have a direct drive option, which
is going to allow us to control even better,
make it more serviceable. And really, we were
talking earlier about kind of the plug and play
of packaged products. Having that direct drive
ECM motor is going to make that even better.
fan and motor is going to make that even an easier
type of installation and adjustment out there
in the field so we're we're very excited about
that and to have that offering available yeah
absolutely i love that combination where can
we learn more about both of these product lines
Yeah, absolutely. So we do have our public website.
So depending on the brand you're looking at,
York .com, Luxair .com, all of those are out
there. The other area for contractors or customers
that are using our product today, we have the
solution navigator web page. And that's where
they'll be able to find kind of the most detail.
And you'll get some great information out there.
We've updated all of our technical literature,
our technical guides, installation manuals. All
of that is going to have the specifics for dual
fuel added into the heat pump literature. And
there's one other tool that's out there today.
It is an Excel spreadsheet, but we're expanding
how it operates. But Jason alluded to it a little
bit earlier. We're kind of calling it our dual
fuel estimator. And it's basically a tool that
we have where a customer can go in, where a potential
customer can go in even and select the tonnage
equipment they're looking at. and put in a little
bit of information about their location so that
we can pull the right heating and cooling data
for their area. And this tool is actually going
to run a comparison for an AC with gas heat,
a heat pump with electric heat, and then now
the dual fuel heat pump with gas heat and allow
customers to put in information. You know, we
talked about utility rates earlier. If they know
their rate for their electric and their gas,
they can put their utility rate in. They can
even, if they know the emissions for how their
electricity is generated, they can put in emissions
data for their electricity and their gas. And
that system is going to go through and that estimator
is going to give them information on basically
an estimated annual cost of utilities and the
estimated annual emissions associated with those
three types of products. So it'll give you basically
those two numbers for an AC with gas heat, heat
pump with electric heat backup. And then the
dual fuel heat pump. So you can just see what
you can expect to both save in terms of utility
costs and the emission reductions that you can
expect with that dual fuel heat pump. And there's
one other thing that you can plug into that calculator.
You mentioned it earlier, the kind of buzzword
around it. But the one thing that's new with
our product with dual fuel in terms of the controls
and setup is inputting the balance point. So
a customer will go in when they install that
unit. The one thing that's new is inserting that
balance point. So it's basically the outdoor
air temperature at which you want the unit to
switch from heat pump heating to gas heat. It
defaults to 40 degrees, but we allow a range.
You talked about, you know, especially from foreign
manufactured products here in the U .S., we may
be a little uncomfortable with the range because
they allow a little more discomfort than we might
typically see here. We've opened up the range
here. So that balance point can be set anywhere
from zero degrees Fahrenheit to 65 degrees Fahrenheit.
Obviously, the cooler you set it, the longer
you're going to operate your heat pump. But again,
that's just the temperature. Let's say you set
it to 32 degrees. Nice, easy number to pick.
If the outdoor air is above 32 degrees, you're
running your heat pump as a heat pump. Once you
hit 32 degrees or below, it switches to gas heat.
The reason I bring that up when talking about
the tool. So in the tool, you can set the balance
point that you want to use. And that will actually
give you the calculations based on that balance
point. So our customers can use it both to compare
the three different categories of units, but
they can also use it if they've already made
the decision they're going to purchase a dual
fuel unit, but they want to look at the impact
of that balance point. They can use the tool
to test different balance points, see what it
does for their emissions, see what it does for
the utility costs, and hopefully help to drive
the decision a little bit. the one piece it doesn't
do is it doesn't tell you how comfortable you're
going to be in the space obviously so that's
the the kind of human factor they have to decide
for themselves but it will give them kind of
the hard numbers the utility cost associated
with it and the emissions associated with it
at those different temperatures. Yeah. And that's
a lot of great information that I know is going
to be going into the design of buildings going
forward because so many building engineers are
looking for those specifications. It's going
to be a more common requirement going forward
is understanding what those emissions levels
are. Awesome. Well, gentlemen, I really appreciate
you joining us today. I'm grateful that you're
keeping us up to date with the changes in dual
fuel RTUs, and I look forward to catching one
out in the wild in the near future. Absolutely,
Clifton. Great to talk to you. Thank you so much
for having us on.