WEBVTT 00:00:05.580 --> 00:00:07.679 All right, everyone. Thank you for joining us 00:00:07.679 --> 00:00:11.039 once again on Did You Know, the ESCO HVAC 00:00:11.039 --> 00:00:13.519 podcast. So today we're spending some time with 00:00:13.519 --> 00:00:16.059 Jennifer Manzo. How are you? Hooray. How are 00:00:16.059 --> 00:00:18.620 you, Cliff? I'm doing just fine. You know, this 00:00:18.620 --> 00:00:23.179 topic is something that I absolutely love to 00:00:23.179 --> 00:00:27.539 learn about. So as much as I enjoy the industry, 00:00:27.739 --> 00:00:31.620 I'm a history nerd. And so I love learning about 00:00:31.620 --> 00:00:34.960 the history of just anything. But particular, 00:00:35.200 --> 00:00:38.380 like our own industry. And you bring a very unique 00:00:38.380 --> 00:00:41.500 perspective. And I would love for us to share 00:00:41.500 --> 00:00:44.880 that with the audience today. Absolutely. I know 00:00:44.880 --> 00:00:48.500 that this topic was kind of inspired by you, 00:00:48.560 --> 00:00:50.780 Clifton, because you came to my class, my homeschool 00:00:50.780 --> 00:00:53.719 class, and taught about HVAC history, which was 00:00:53.719 --> 00:00:55.640 amazing. Yeah, with the refrigerants. Yeah, absolutely. 00:00:56.280 --> 00:01:00.439 Yeah. So now we're kind of, I guess, in the forefront 00:01:00.439 --> 00:01:03.240 of technology as far as HVAC goes. We've kind 00:01:03.240 --> 00:01:05.239 of caught up to the rest of the world, or catching 00:01:05.239 --> 00:01:07.079 up, I should say. Catching up. That's right. 00:01:07.790 --> 00:01:09.969 And I kind of wanted to go back through with 00:01:09.969 --> 00:01:12.689 you and maybe bring the perspective of women 00:01:12.689 --> 00:01:16.290 in HVAC. I know that it's much known that we're 00:01:16.290 --> 00:01:18.209 2 % of the industry and that we're kind of the 00:01:18.209 --> 00:01:20.629 minority. But I just kind of want to put a spotlight 00:01:20.629 --> 00:01:23.030 on the fact that women have been in HVAC for 00:01:23.030 --> 00:01:26.049 literally ever. So if you're okay with that, 00:01:26.189 --> 00:01:28.989 I'd love to talk about it. No, I love that because 00:01:28.989 --> 00:01:30.569 I think it's something that everyone should be 00:01:30.569 --> 00:01:33.170 aware of because we have a very significant growth 00:01:33.170 --> 00:01:36.790 of women in the trades in general. And I'm excited 00:01:36.790 --> 00:01:39.810 about it. I love that we're finally getting to 00:01:39.810 --> 00:01:41.810 that point where we're breaking stereotypes, 00:01:42.230 --> 00:01:46.170 we're breaking stigmas and norms, and we're looking 00:01:46.170 --> 00:01:49.269 at an industry kind of like a civilization, right? 00:01:49.349 --> 00:01:51.450 We're evolving and we're turning into something 00:01:51.450 --> 00:01:55.359 better. And it's really, it's providing a lot 00:01:55.359 --> 00:01:57.459 of new benefits and new opportunities within 00:01:57.459 --> 00:02:00.140 our industry that I think many people have neglected 00:02:00.140 --> 00:02:02.420 for a long time. So yeah, I'm excited about this. 00:02:02.920 --> 00:02:07.840 Yeah, me too. All right. So I think I want to 00:02:07.840 --> 00:02:09.759 start all the way back in the very beginning, 00:02:09.860 --> 00:02:13.330 if that's okay with everybody. I mean, we talk 00:02:13.330 --> 00:02:15.650 about women in HVAC. We even talk about women 00:02:15.650 --> 00:02:18.169 innovators in HVAC, but we talk about them kind 00:02:18.169 --> 00:02:21.710 of starting at that like late 1800s hump, right? 00:02:21.870 --> 00:02:24.930 It's kind of the, that's the baseline when we 00:02:24.930 --> 00:02:27.030 talk about women getting into HVAC. And that's 00:02:27.030 --> 00:02:28.870 how we always think of it is that's when it started. 00:02:29.169 --> 00:02:32.969 It's not. So women have been in, I should say, 00:02:32.990 --> 00:02:38.349 HVAC adjacent areas since the ancient times. 00:02:38.409 --> 00:02:41.330 And I'm talking. Cavemen, women were running 00:02:41.330 --> 00:02:43.930 the fires while the men were out providing and 00:02:43.930 --> 00:02:46.610 protecting. I mean, when we talk about heating 00:02:46.610 --> 00:02:48.509 and cooling spaces, that's really what we're 00:02:48.509 --> 00:02:50.710 doing here. And ventilation, when we look at 00:02:50.710 --> 00:02:53.370 the underground civilization, Derinkuyu out in 00:02:53.370 --> 00:02:56.330 Turkey, right? That's a beautiful example. I 00:02:56.330 --> 00:02:59.360 mean, you fit. you know 20 000 people in an underground 00:02:59.360 --> 00:03:01.840 city and when they did that they had to have 00:03:01.840 --> 00:03:04.740 some people you know in certain spaces tending 00:03:04.740 --> 00:03:07.560 fires and making sure ventilation holes didn't 00:03:07.560 --> 00:03:10.139 close i mean those this underground city could 00:03:10.139 --> 00:03:12.539 not have worked without ventilation i mean obviously 00:03:12.539 --> 00:03:14.400 that was the principle but if you can't breathe 00:03:14.400 --> 00:03:18.539 yeah like that's the number one thing. And so 00:03:18.539 --> 00:03:22.020 those ventilation holes often were tended by 00:03:22.020 --> 00:03:25.159 women. Those fires that were keeping all these 00:03:25.159 --> 00:03:27.840 children warm were tended by women. And so if 00:03:27.840 --> 00:03:30.120 you look really, you really look far back, I 00:03:30.120 --> 00:03:32.639 mean, maybe women didn't invent fire. Maybe men 00:03:32.639 --> 00:03:34.979 did. Maybe they were the first ones to tend it. 00:03:35.000 --> 00:03:37.460 But women very, very quickly after learned that 00:03:37.460 --> 00:03:40.460 trade and took it over as their own. And we see 00:03:40.460 --> 00:03:42.939 even more examples of that further on in the 00:03:42.939 --> 00:03:44.780 ancient world when we get more into civilization. 00:03:45.849 --> 00:03:49.169 We see things like the priestesses of the hearth. 00:03:49.169 --> 00:03:51.090 And we talk about the priestesses of the hearth 00:03:51.090 --> 00:03:53.409 in Greek terms typically, but they were also 00:03:53.409 --> 00:03:57.169 Roman. These women were, I mean, in giant, giant 00:03:57.169 --> 00:03:59.830 temples were talking, you know, temples on a 00:03:59.830 --> 00:04:01.530 scale that if you haven't seen them, you can't 00:04:01.530 --> 00:04:03.750 believe how big they are. And they were keeping 00:04:03.750 --> 00:04:07.110 these places warm. Well, their job as priestesses 00:04:07.110 --> 00:04:09.090 of the hearth were to keep fires burning for 00:04:09.090 --> 00:04:12.900 the gods, right? That was the basis. they should 00:04:12.900 --> 00:04:14.819 keep these fires going for but we're talking 00:04:14.819 --> 00:04:17.620 24 hours a day in a climate that gets cold at 00:04:17.620 --> 00:04:20.620 night so Are they only for the gods? Probably 00:04:20.620 --> 00:04:22.259 not. You don't want to freeze to death while 00:04:22.259 --> 00:04:25.259 you're out there praying, right? So these women, 00:04:25.379 --> 00:04:28.000 that was their whole jobs. They were not to leave 00:04:28.000 --> 00:04:30.300 the hearth. And on their sleep shifts, which 00:04:30.300 --> 00:04:33.040 often only came every 24 hours, you would get 00:04:33.040 --> 00:04:35.959 a five -hour break to go sleep. And that's because 00:04:35.959 --> 00:04:38.060 you were supposed to be laying your sacrifices 00:04:38.060 --> 00:04:41.199 to the gods, and you were a servant of the gods. 00:04:41.279 --> 00:04:43.220 And so you would only sleep five hours. You would 00:04:43.220 --> 00:04:44.879 get something to eat real quick, and you'd go 00:04:44.879 --> 00:04:46.879 right back to that hearth. And you wouldn't leave 00:04:46.879 --> 00:04:48.600 it. You would stand right there. keep these herds 00:04:48.600 --> 00:04:50.819 going. And they use them for all kinds of ceremonies. 00:04:51.060 --> 00:04:53.300 They use these fires for obviously heat. They 00:04:53.300 --> 00:04:55.500 use them for all kinds of different reasons, 00:04:55.579 --> 00:04:58.660 but the same women were the same people tending 00:04:58.660 --> 00:05:01.519 those fires 24 hours a day, no matter what. And 00:05:01.519 --> 00:05:04.829 there. often forgot about in terms of textbook 00:05:04.829 --> 00:05:07.610 history. When we talk to children, they've never 00:05:07.610 --> 00:05:09.610 heard of the priestesses of the earth, but they've 00:05:09.610 --> 00:05:13.149 also never heard of even further women in HVAC 00:05:13.149 --> 00:05:14.870 situations. Alice Parker, they don't know who 00:05:14.870 --> 00:05:17.230 that is. So we're going to get into that a little 00:05:17.230 --> 00:05:19.009 bit, but I just want to start in the ancient 00:05:19.009 --> 00:05:21.389 world. Then we have women in African tribes, 00:05:21.490 --> 00:05:24.410 women all over Mesopotamia that are tending house 00:05:24.410 --> 00:05:27.129 fires, keeping their homes warm, cooking for 00:05:27.129 --> 00:05:29.709 their children. Women in Egypt would actually 00:05:29.709 --> 00:05:34.970 use... What are they called? Something pots. 00:05:35.149 --> 00:05:39.029 I have them in my presentation here. Man, I hate 00:05:39.029 --> 00:05:40.850 when that happens. It'll come to me. Anyway, 00:05:40.930 --> 00:05:43.389 they use these pots and they would have an inner 00:05:43.389 --> 00:05:46.540 circle pot and an... outer circle pot made of 00:05:46.540 --> 00:05:49.439 terracotta or clay and the outer circle would 00:05:49.439 --> 00:05:52.540 hold salt right and that salt is a great way 00:05:52.540 --> 00:05:54.620 to keep things cold and the inner circle would 00:05:54.620 --> 00:05:56.540 keep their food their vegetables and they would 00:05:56.540 --> 00:05:58.939 take these pots and they would pile them in front 00:05:58.939 --> 00:06:01.240 of the hottest where the sun was hitting on their 00:06:01.240 --> 00:06:02.800 hot you know they would pile them in front of 00:06:02.800 --> 00:06:05.879 that that wall and those pots would keep their 00:06:05.879 --> 00:06:07.800 homes warm and these women would just you know 00:06:07.800 --> 00:06:09.639 take the food out of the pots put more food in 00:06:09.639 --> 00:06:11.639 them and they would just tend these these cooling 00:06:11.639 --> 00:06:14.519 systems forever and always until they're they 00:06:14.519 --> 00:06:17.620 got old and gray, right? So though it was harder 00:06:17.620 --> 00:06:21.220 work, and we don't tend to think of that as HVACR, 00:06:21.439 --> 00:06:24.439 right? Right there, we have ventilation, we have 00:06:24.439 --> 00:06:26.680 cooling, we have heating, we have all of these 00:06:26.680 --> 00:06:28.860 different aspects and ventilation as well. If 00:06:28.860 --> 00:06:31.040 you cook in your hut, and you don't have a ventilation 00:06:31.040 --> 00:06:33.060 system, you're probably not going to be very 00:06:33.060 --> 00:06:35.180 comfortable in there or be able to breathe. So 00:06:35.180 --> 00:06:38.720 very important. As we get even further on, we 00:06:38.720 --> 00:06:41.579 get into the Middle Ages, which is really, really 00:06:41.579 --> 00:06:45.199 fun when it comes to women in HVAC. So they're 00:06:45.199 --> 00:06:48.660 castles, right? Just for a basis of what we should 00:06:48.660 --> 00:06:51.100 start with, castles, I would consider a commercial 00:06:51.100 --> 00:06:54.139 entity, not necessarily a residential, even though 00:06:54.139 --> 00:06:56.740 most rooms in castles, if you haven't been in 00:06:56.740 --> 00:06:59.139 one, they're the size of most of our homes now. 00:06:59.339 --> 00:07:02.199 So these are the spaces they're trying to keep 00:07:02.199 --> 00:07:04.879 warm. they're made of concrete they're made of 00:07:04.879 --> 00:07:07.339 rock they're not they're not ventilated well 00:07:07.339 --> 00:07:10.500 they don't have much solar infiltration so they're 00:07:10.500 --> 00:07:12.160 trying to keep these spaces warm though that 00:07:12.160 --> 00:07:14.079 was done by the women the women were the ones 00:07:14.079 --> 00:07:15.819 that tended the fires they were the ones that 00:07:15.819 --> 00:07:18.939 cleaned the chimneys um a lot of tragedy struck 00:07:18.939 --> 00:07:21.240 because of this these women weren't trained in 00:07:21.240 --> 00:07:25.699 any way to deal with a massive fire in a stone 00:07:25.699 --> 00:07:28.160 building and so what would happen is you know 00:07:28.160 --> 00:07:30.939 that creosil that soot from burning so much wood 00:07:30.939 --> 00:07:33.329 or coal would fall right back down the chimney. 00:07:33.430 --> 00:07:35.970 It would kill servants. Female servants have, 00:07:36.009 --> 00:07:38.170 you know, death certificates that say that, that 00:07:38.170 --> 00:07:40.550 say that they died because creosil fell on their 00:07:40.550 --> 00:07:42.189 head when they were tending a fire. No kidding. 00:07:42.769 --> 00:07:46.290 It's documented. Yeah. The earliest one that 00:07:46.290 --> 00:07:49.110 I found today when I was looking was from 1100. 00:07:49.170 --> 00:07:52.910 So year 1100, this was happening. Fascinating. 00:07:53.569 --> 00:07:56.769 Yes. And then even going more forward than that 00:07:56.769 --> 00:07:59.089 outside of castles, if we get into I mean, even 00:07:59.089 --> 00:08:00.990 still in castles, if we get into kind of the 00:08:00.990 --> 00:08:04.410 Renaissance, right, there were at that point 00:08:04.410 --> 00:08:07.389 we were bringing in ice and snow to cool banquet 00:08:07.389 --> 00:08:11.439 halls. Catherine de' Medici, she was known for 00:08:11.439 --> 00:08:13.939 that. She was absolutely known for it. She would 00:08:13.939 --> 00:08:16.300 beat the crap out of a servant who didn't bring 00:08:16.300 --> 00:08:18.519 enough ice to her banquet hall because it had 00:08:18.519 --> 00:08:21.519 to be perfect. The Medicis were known for just 00:08:21.519 --> 00:08:24.399 being absolutely brutal to their servantry, but 00:08:24.399 --> 00:08:26.920 also for innovation. She would say, figure it 00:08:26.920 --> 00:08:29.220 out, and a servant would go and figure it out. 00:08:29.500 --> 00:08:31.579 I mean, you didn't say no to Catherine, right? 00:08:31.720 --> 00:08:35.919 So there's tons of different women in the Renaissance 00:08:35.919 --> 00:08:38.389 times that were known for just... overseeing, 00:08:38.389 --> 00:08:40.889 you know, kind of the HVAC of their dwelling 00:08:40.889 --> 00:08:42.950 or even their whole kingdom, which is pretty 00:08:42.950 --> 00:08:45.450 awesome. And then if we talk, you know, going 00:08:45.450 --> 00:08:48.649 forward, we have obviously the godfather, right? 00:08:48.769 --> 00:08:50.950 The godfather of refrigeration, Mr. John Gorey. 00:08:51.330 --> 00:08:54.159 Well... Lots and lots of John Gorey's friends 00:08:54.159 --> 00:08:56.720 in the scientific community, the people who actually 00:08:56.720 --> 00:08:59.860 believed in his craziness, so to speak, were 00:08:59.860 --> 00:09:03.519 women. They were women. They said, OK, John, 00:09:03.620 --> 00:09:06.320 maybe this part of, you know, your craziness 00:09:06.320 --> 00:09:07.899 right now doesn't make a whole lot of sense. 00:09:07.919 --> 00:09:09.970 But maybe if we change it. and make it look like 00:09:09.970 --> 00:09:12.090 this. It will make a lot more sense. And he's 00:09:12.090 --> 00:09:14.210 known for crediting them. He's known for saying 00:09:14.210 --> 00:09:16.990 that only women would believe him that this could 00:09:16.990 --> 00:09:20.289 be done correctly. And that, I mean, is a stab 00:09:20.289 --> 00:09:22.669 at us, of course. It's just to say, you know, 00:09:22.669 --> 00:09:24.529 of the times people thought women were crazy 00:09:24.529 --> 00:09:27.629 if they were any type of progression, but Angori 00:09:27.629 --> 00:09:29.909 was crazy and look what he did for us. So it's 00:09:29.909 --> 00:09:33.049 pretty great. Wow. Yeah. That's fascinating. 00:09:33.309 --> 00:09:36.350 That's a lot. That's like a jumpstart into history, 00:09:36.470 --> 00:09:39.830 like of women in HVAC. Yeah. And I mean, you 00:09:39.830 --> 00:09:42.049 can't have one without the other, I guess, is 00:09:42.049 --> 00:09:44.169 the thing. And I'm a huge history buff too, Clifton. 00:09:44.230 --> 00:09:45.549 As you know, I'm a history teacher. It's what 00:09:45.549 --> 00:09:49.509 I do. And I think when I first got into HVAC, 00:09:49.549 --> 00:09:52.730 what kind of made me fall in love with it was 00:09:52.730 --> 00:09:54.830 the history of it, was the fact that so many 00:09:54.830 --> 00:09:57.929 people have to be so innovative and have to really 00:09:57.929 --> 00:10:01.029 dig into STEM and mathematics and science and 00:10:01.029 --> 00:10:02.669 all these things. And they have to make it work 00:10:02.669 --> 00:10:04.429 because if it doesn't, we won't have what we 00:10:04.429 --> 00:10:08.000 have today. Medicine is so important. In HVACR, 00:10:08.059 --> 00:10:11.019 right? Yep, absolutely. And so there are so many, 00:10:11.159 --> 00:10:13.519 I mean, going back, if we really look, I'm sure 00:10:13.519 --> 00:10:15.539 we can find thousands of thousands of situations 00:10:15.539 --> 00:10:17.659 where people tried to keep herbs cool, right? 00:10:18.080 --> 00:10:21.659 But Hildegard of Benin, she was born in 1098 00:10:21.659 --> 00:10:25.419 and she lived until 1179. But she was an early 00:10:25.419 --> 00:10:28.399 German woman who wrote initially about medicinal 00:10:28.399 --> 00:10:30.740 heating and cooling for food, herbs, disease, 00:10:31.100 --> 00:10:34.620 even disease treatment, right? So disease spreads, 00:10:34.740 --> 00:10:37.360 and we know this from John Gorey. disease spreads 00:10:37.360 --> 00:10:39.500 if it gets hot most of the time that's the best 00:10:39.500 --> 00:10:41.259 way for it to spread so if we don't allow it 00:10:41.259 --> 00:10:43.259 to as they would say back then fester and we 00:10:43.259 --> 00:10:46.000 can keep it cool um there's a lot more time to 00:10:46.000 --> 00:10:48.360 treat it right and so she did a lot of research 00:10:48.360 --> 00:10:50.559 on that and she ended up i just thought this 00:10:50.559 --> 00:10:52.179 was cool because she ended up being recognized 00:10:52.179 --> 00:10:55.200 as saint hildegard von binion and i think that's 00:10:55.200 --> 00:10:57.700 awesome to saint somebody who in those times 00:10:57.700 --> 00:11:00.120 probably was frowned upon for her research you 00:11:00.120 --> 00:11:05.000 know um a scientist of the time yeah And in more 00:11:05.000 --> 00:11:07.200 Spain, the other one I wanted to get into was 00:11:07.200 --> 00:11:10.100 kind of outdoor ventilation. So we don't think 00:11:10.100 --> 00:11:12.559 about this a lot in terms of HVAC, but it happens 00:11:12.559 --> 00:11:15.200 in a lot of spaces throughout the world. So in 00:11:15.200 --> 00:11:18.600 more Spain, in the Middle Ages, the women of 00:11:18.600 --> 00:11:21.600 wealthy households would manage quanats. And 00:11:21.600 --> 00:11:23.919 what quanats are is underground water channels. 00:11:24.299 --> 00:11:26.740 So these water channels would run cool water 00:11:26.740 --> 00:11:28.860 through them, and then wind towers would work 00:11:28.860 --> 00:11:32.500 with them in order to keep that. breeze i guess 00:11:32.500 --> 00:11:35.200 that they're creating down towards the bottom 00:11:35.200 --> 00:11:37.500 of the courtyard so these courtyards you would 00:11:37.500 --> 00:11:39.139 walk into them from the street and you would 00:11:39.139 --> 00:11:41.539 be noticeably cooler they would literally just 00:11:41.539 --> 00:11:43.639 whisk that heat away from you and i just thought 00:11:43.639 --> 00:11:46.240 that was such a really cool cool little thing 00:11:47.049 --> 00:11:49.690 And then obviously we have Emily du Chatelet 00:11:49.690 --> 00:11:53.669 and she was in France in the 1700s. She translated 00:11:53.669 --> 00:11:56.710 Newton and she studied heat, energy and motion, 00:11:56.950 --> 00:11:58.789 foundational physics, right? That eventually 00:11:58.789 --> 00:12:01.389 fed into thermodynamics, which made her one of 00:12:01.389 --> 00:12:03.789 the first women to theorize energy transfer. 00:12:03.990 --> 00:12:07.049 To theorize energy transfer, just a Renaissance 00:12:07.049 --> 00:12:12.149 woman in France. Yeah. We think of Newton, right? 00:12:12.269 --> 00:12:14.649 We don't think of the woman that's sitting in 00:12:14.649 --> 00:12:18.870 her castle, right? And then another really great 00:12:18.870 --> 00:12:23.090 one that I wanted to bring up was from the 1800s 00:12:23.090 --> 00:12:24.470 to the present. There's a couple that I really 00:12:24.470 --> 00:12:26.149 want to talk about here because there's some 00:12:26.149 --> 00:12:27.909 that everybody knows about that they may not 00:12:27.909 --> 00:12:30.710 know something about. But a really great one 00:12:30.710 --> 00:12:34.899 is Margaret Wilcox. Oh, sure. Born in 1838. Died 00:12:34.899 --> 00:12:38.480 in 1912. She created the first patent in HVAC 00:12:38.480 --> 00:12:42.559 in 1893 for a carriage or car heating system 00:12:42.559 --> 00:12:45.840 that diverted energy heat into the cabin. So 00:12:45.840 --> 00:12:50.259 we're talking 1893 and we're talking about reheat, 00:12:50.259 --> 00:12:53.139 right? We're talking about harnessing reheat. 00:12:53.360 --> 00:12:55.580 That's crazy. And it's not a man that's sitting 00:12:55.580 --> 00:12:58.019 there, you know, how can we use these motors 00:12:58.019 --> 00:13:00.750 and steel? No, it's a woman. that is cold in 00:13:00.750 --> 00:13:04.629 her carriage so she writes this incredible patent 00:13:04.629 --> 00:13:08.529 moving forward from her we have mary angle pennington 00:13:08.529 --> 00:13:10.970 and mary uh margaret ingalls right two of my 00:13:10.970 --> 00:13:14.090 absolute favorites these are two of my my i would 00:13:14.090 --> 00:13:17.470 say historical men okay right i want to be just 00:13:17.470 --> 00:13:22.590 yes women So Margaret Engel Pennington, obviously, 00:13:22.590 --> 00:13:25.809 was a chemist and a refrigeration engineer. Pennington 00:13:25.809 --> 00:13:29.149 began her scientific training in the 1890s. So 00:13:29.149 --> 00:13:31.570 women were not supposed to be in STEM in the 00:13:31.570 --> 00:13:36.610 1890s. Yep, absolutely. By 1895, she was already 00:13:36.610 --> 00:13:38.429 experimenting with food preservation through 00:13:38.429 --> 00:13:41.629 cooling. And later, into the 1920s, she became 00:13:41.629 --> 00:13:43.669 the refrigeration pioneer of the U .S. Department 00:13:43.669 --> 00:13:46.429 of Agriculture, designing refrigerated rail cars. 00:13:46.929 --> 00:13:48.990 Isn't that crazy? Amazing. Refrigerated rail 00:13:48.990 --> 00:13:52.580 cars. And at this time, I mean, this woman was 00:13:52.580 --> 00:13:56.679 in her 70s, 80s and 90s. It really sparked the 00:13:56.679 --> 00:13:59.840 entire movement of us moving and migrating to 00:13:59.840 --> 00:14:01.539 the West. A lot of people don't realize that 00:14:01.539 --> 00:14:03.659 refrigeration is what allowed us to be able to 00:14:03.659 --> 00:14:05.940 move to the West. And she was very fundamental 00:14:05.940 --> 00:14:10.120 in those early refrigerated boxcars. Oh, for 00:14:10.120 --> 00:14:12.419 sure. I mean, we couldn't have moved any of our 00:14:12.419 --> 00:14:14.620 humans to the West, but we definitely couldn't 00:14:14.620 --> 00:14:17.879 have moved any supplies to the West without refrigeration. 00:14:17.879 --> 00:14:19.559 We would have starved to death. And many did 00:14:19.559 --> 00:14:21.759 because they didn't weren't able to utilize it. 00:14:21.799 --> 00:14:24.460 Right. They didn't have the money. And then Margaret 00:14:24.460 --> 00:14:26.480 Ingalls, of course, anybody who doesn't know 00:14:26.480 --> 00:14:28.120 Margaret Ingalls, go and research her, please, 00:14:28.159 --> 00:14:30.879 because she's just an absolutely fantastic character 00:14:30.879 --> 00:14:34.919 in this world of HVAC that we have. She was born 00:14:34.919 --> 00:14:39.379 in 1892. She died in 1971. So when we think of 00:14:39.379 --> 00:14:41.600 the 1800s, we think it was a really, really long 00:14:41.600 --> 00:14:44.000 time ago. And it really wasn't. This woman died 00:14:44.000 --> 00:14:49.200 in 1971. And through her HVAC engineering breakthroughs, 00:14:49.200 --> 00:14:54.600 she was able to. move a lot more women into the 00:14:54.600 --> 00:14:57.399 STEM field. So she was unique in her situation 00:14:57.399 --> 00:14:59.879 where she was not afraid of anything or seemingly 00:14:59.879 --> 00:15:02.919 wasn't. She was very brave. And what she did 00:15:02.919 --> 00:15:05.850 was she brought a whole lot of other women. into 00:15:05.850 --> 00:15:07.529 this so that she wouldn't be the only one. And 00:15:07.529 --> 00:15:10.350 I've really modeled HVHX Coalition after Margaret 00:15:10.350 --> 00:15:12.710 Ingalls because of that. I think that having 00:15:12.710 --> 00:15:14.809 that female community really matters, especially 00:15:14.809 --> 00:15:16.850 in male -dominated trades, but also men need 00:15:16.850 --> 00:15:18.870 that too. Men need that community with women 00:15:18.870 --> 00:15:21.809 as well. So she symbolizes how women's access 00:15:21.809 --> 00:15:24.429 to formal engineering education at the century's 00:15:24.429 --> 00:15:26.470 end prepared to shape the modern HVAC world. 00:15:26.789 --> 00:15:29.850 So if without Margaret Ingalls going to school 00:15:29.850 --> 00:15:31.629 for engineering, it would probably have been 00:15:31.629 --> 00:15:34.269 a lot harder when I got in to have done the same. 00:15:34.860 --> 00:15:37.960 I agree. And now I want to lead into one of the 00:15:37.960 --> 00:15:41.440 absolute legendary women in HVAC, Miss Alice 00:15:41.440 --> 00:15:44.220 Parker. There's a lot more about Alice Parker 00:15:44.220 --> 00:15:48.399 than people know. So she invented, in 1919, she 00:15:48.399 --> 00:15:53.919 invented patent number US -1325907A. And what 00:15:53.919 --> 00:15:58.019 that is, is the original patent for the gas -powered 00:15:58.019 --> 00:16:02.639 furnace. Her patent didn't work. Let me just 00:16:02.639 --> 00:16:04.340 start by saying that. Her patent didn't work. 00:16:04.759 --> 00:16:07.700 how we need it to now. It didn't work to kind 00:16:07.700 --> 00:16:11.940 of trigger that modern furnace that we have today, 00:16:12.139 --> 00:16:17.220 but it was the first working pack. Yes, yes. 00:16:17.440 --> 00:16:19.679 And it's awesome. If you haven't seen the pictures, 00:16:19.759 --> 00:16:21.679 you guys go look it up because it absolutely 00:16:21.679 --> 00:16:24.120 would work, but it works in a way that you would 00:16:24.120 --> 00:16:26.460 teach about, not necessarily that you would use. 00:16:27.279 --> 00:16:30.919 But by the use of natural gas, we were using 00:16:30.919 --> 00:16:33.960 coal and wood. back then i mean look at the titanic 00:16:33.960 --> 00:16:36.419 sunk you know back in the early 1900s we were 00:16:36.419 --> 00:16:38.840 using coal and wood back then not natural gas 00:16:38.840 --> 00:16:44.120 um and then so her central furnace system provided 00:16:44.120 --> 00:16:46.080 heat throughout the entire home and not just 00:16:46.080 --> 00:16:48.059 one room that's another really important thing 00:16:48.059 --> 00:16:51.460 so every wood or coal appliance would heat one 00:16:51.460 --> 00:16:54.500 space and it was really hard to get it to heat 00:16:54.500 --> 00:16:57.659 other spaces but this patent actually did heat 00:16:58.220 --> 00:17:00.500 More than one room, which is pretty great. And 00:17:00.500 --> 00:17:03.600 she was one of the first to design suggested 00:17:03.600 --> 00:17:06.599 separate ducts to direct warm air to different 00:17:06.599 --> 00:17:09.839 areas. Not exactly in the best way we could have 00:17:09.839 --> 00:17:11.259 designed that. But still, it's the thought process. 00:17:11.740 --> 00:17:14.660 Maintaining more comfort within the home. That's 00:17:14.660 --> 00:17:17.220 really what it came down to. Yeah. And it's honestly, 00:17:17.500 --> 00:17:20.619 when I read about Alice Parker, it makes me really 00:17:20.619 --> 00:17:23.160 wonder how many other people thought of that 00:17:23.160 --> 00:17:25.039 before, but maybe didn't have the bravery to 00:17:25.039 --> 00:17:28.109 say, this is something you should be doing. Yeah. 00:17:28.230 --> 00:17:30.470 Yeah. And the other thing about Alice Parker 00:17:30.470 --> 00:17:32.869 is completely non -related to age fact, but it's 00:17:32.869 --> 00:17:36.269 so interesting. When we think of Alice Parker, 00:17:36.390 --> 00:17:38.509 we think of this iconic picture of the woman 00:17:38.509 --> 00:17:40.670 with the curly pinned back hair and she's kind 00:17:40.670 --> 00:17:43.150 of sideways looking at the camera. And that picture, 00:17:43.190 --> 00:17:46.789 that iconic picture is not Alice Parker. That's 00:17:46.789 --> 00:17:50.170 crazy. It's not Alice Parker. Alice Parker was 00:17:50.170 --> 00:17:53.430 an African -American woman. And so though we 00:17:53.430 --> 00:17:56.339 know that. Men want to showcase African -American 00:17:56.339 --> 00:17:58.539 women, especially not in STEM, especially not 00:17:58.539 --> 00:18:02.140 with such a grandiose innovation. So they actually 00:18:02.140 --> 00:18:04.859 took one of her neighbors, a picture of one of 00:18:04.859 --> 00:18:07.740 her neighbors, a white woman, and they showcased 00:18:07.740 --> 00:18:10.539 it. They put this in textbooks. They put this 00:18:10.539 --> 00:18:12.900 picture of this other woman that kind of resembled 00:18:12.900 --> 00:18:17.079 Alice Parker, if she were white, in textbooks. 00:18:17.220 --> 00:18:19.380 They put it everywhere. And it was not until 00:18:19.380 --> 00:18:21.859 one of her descendants, one of her family members, 00:18:21.940 --> 00:18:24.640 came out and said, They were, I believe Alice 00:18:24.640 --> 00:18:26.920 Parker was winning an award. I believe she was 00:18:26.920 --> 00:18:28.819 winning like one of her many awards, right? But 00:18:28.819 --> 00:18:31.039 it was, you know, long post -mortem. She had 00:18:31.039 --> 00:18:34.220 been dead for decades at the time. And her family 00:18:34.220 --> 00:18:37.700 member said, that is not Alice Parker. Stop using 00:18:37.700 --> 00:18:40.519 that picture. This is my grandmother, great grandmother, 00:18:40.599 --> 00:18:44.240 whatever it was. And so now the picture of. the 00:18:44.240 --> 00:18:46.019 real Alice Parker, they've kind of positioned 00:18:46.019 --> 00:18:47.900 it in that same way. So you can line them up 00:18:47.900 --> 00:18:49.700 side by side, which I did do in my presentation, 00:18:49.920 --> 00:18:52.700 but we're not showing that today. But yeah, she's 00:18:52.700 --> 00:18:55.619 very much an African American woman who was kind 00:18:55.619 --> 00:18:57.940 of stripped of her culture in order to innovate. 00:18:58.079 --> 00:19:00.619 So not only was she a minority as far as her 00:19:00.619 --> 00:19:03.680 gender, as far as her race, but also was just 00:19:03.680 --> 00:19:06.920 completely oppressed by the entire United States 00:19:06.920 --> 00:19:11.019 over this. And to To have her make such strides 00:19:11.019 --> 00:19:13.700 in such a crazy male -dominated field at the 00:19:13.700 --> 00:19:15.799 time and then have her entire identity stripped 00:19:15.799 --> 00:19:18.359 from her other than her name, that is something 00:19:18.359 --> 00:19:22.859 that I think that was the trigger, right? To 00:19:22.859 --> 00:19:27.019 say, maybe as a whole, as a community, as a society, 00:19:27.180 --> 00:19:30.140 we have to just let things be. things the things 00:19:30.140 --> 00:19:32.660 that they are and because of that because of 00:19:32.660 --> 00:19:35.059 you know not only alice parker making this invention 00:19:35.059 --> 00:19:37.460 but also her descendants saying no no no we're 00:19:37.460 --> 00:19:39.019 not going to allow this picture to be circulated 00:19:39.019 --> 00:19:41.599 anymore this is the real alice parker that really 00:19:41.599 --> 00:19:44.099 paved the way for other african -american women's 00:19:44.099 --> 00:19:46.180 to say hey maybe somebody will stand up for me 00:19:46.180 --> 00:19:49.579 and and if we look back in history there are 00:19:49.579 --> 00:19:52.930 probably thousands more heating and air inventions 00:19:52.930 --> 00:19:56.910 that were invented by directly by women but what 00:19:56.910 --> 00:19:59.230 happened is when they documented those and you 00:19:59.230 --> 00:20:02.470 know the scientific magazines and in the innovative 00:20:02.470 --> 00:20:05.109 newspapers and all these things it would just 00:20:05.109 --> 00:20:08.789 say this man invented it right along with mrs 00:20:08.789 --> 00:20:11.750 and it wouldn't leave a name this this was the 00:20:11.750 --> 00:20:13.569 way that they got around this if a woman invented 00:20:13.569 --> 00:20:16.609 something they would say her husband and mrs 00:20:17.189 --> 00:20:20.210 came up with this idea. And over years and years 00:20:20.210 --> 00:20:22.750 and years and years, the man's name was dominant, 00:20:22.890 --> 00:20:25.289 right? It was just spread everywhere like wildfire. 00:20:25.609 --> 00:20:27.869 And the missus was never printed to begin with. 00:20:27.990 --> 00:20:30.349 So lots of people didn't know who was married 00:20:30.349 --> 00:20:32.410 to that man, let alone who the actual person 00:20:32.410 --> 00:20:36.369 was, who invented it. So if we look back in history, 00:20:36.470 --> 00:20:38.970 there's probably a whole lot more women in HVAC 00:20:38.970 --> 00:20:42.130 stories we could tell. But for now, this is kind 00:20:42.130 --> 00:20:43.950 of what we have. And I did want to just kind 00:20:43.950 --> 00:20:46.930 of bring it to the present, Cliff. because that's 00:20:46.930 --> 00:20:49.450 what we don't talk about, right? We don't talk 00:20:49.450 --> 00:20:53.450 about women in HVAC now. And that's a catch -22, 00:20:53.630 --> 00:20:55.890 because we're also always talking about women 00:20:55.890 --> 00:20:58.569 in HVAC now. When we talk about men in HVAC, 00:20:58.589 --> 00:21:01.170 we're talking about specified men, specific men. 00:21:01.289 --> 00:21:04.250 What are they doing? What is their accomplishments? 00:21:04.470 --> 00:21:07.410 What is their roster of things that they've done 00:21:07.410 --> 00:21:09.630 in the industry? When we talk about women in 00:21:09.630 --> 00:21:12.630 HVAC, we say those words, women in HVAC. And 00:21:12.630 --> 00:21:15.859 we don't typically... single one individualized 00:21:15.859 --> 00:21:19.220 accomplishments right exactly and so i i try 00:21:19.220 --> 00:21:21.900 to do that every time i do one of these so for 00:21:21.900 --> 00:21:29.140 you getting to kind of i guess like the the 2000s 00:21:29.140 --> 00:21:32.519 we'll say okay yep so one really and i mean there 00:21:32.519 --> 00:21:34.420 are hundreds of these women that i could single 00:21:34.420 --> 00:21:36.019 out but we'd be here all day and we've got you 00:21:36.019 --> 00:21:39.059 know 10 more minutes so we've got nora magaro 00:21:39.059 --> 00:21:42.240 from from kenya this is one of my favorite stories 00:21:42.240 --> 00:21:45.720 she is a woman from kenya and she grew up in 00:21:45.720 --> 00:21:47.960 a very poor village and realized that there was 00:21:47.960 --> 00:21:52.079 a need and the need was for portable solar -powered 00:21:52.079 --> 00:21:55.819 refrigerators in order to traipse vaccines around 00:21:55.819 --> 00:22:00.960 the african you know landscape and so she decides 00:22:00.960 --> 00:22:05.009 i'm going to work with whatever foundations i 00:22:05.009 --> 00:22:07.230 can i'm going to work with whoever will will 00:22:07.230 --> 00:22:09.430 give me the time of day because she doesn't have 00:22:09.430 --> 00:22:12.009 a soapbox to stand on right so she just has to 00:22:12.009 --> 00:22:14.109 take help from wherever she can and what she 00:22:14.109 --> 00:22:16.210 ended up doing was she invented the vaxa box 00:22:16.210 --> 00:22:19.589 and the vaxa box is now widely used absolutely 00:22:19.589 --> 00:22:23.289 yeah almost every i mean almost every single 00:22:23.289 --> 00:22:27.359 vaccination um company and the ones that distribute 00:22:27.359 --> 00:22:30.460 them to Africa, all use these Vaxaboxes now. 00:22:30.660 --> 00:22:33.180 Sure. But they're solar powered. They're a solar 00:22:33.180 --> 00:22:36.480 powered refrigerator. So my question is, someday, 00:22:36.640 --> 00:22:40.000 will Nora's invention be translated to the home? 00:22:40.380 --> 00:22:43.680 And will we no longer need energy other than 00:22:43.680 --> 00:22:46.799 the sun to run our HVAC units? And who knows? 00:22:46.819 --> 00:22:49.279 Because look at what Alice Parker did, right? 00:22:49.720 --> 00:22:53.500 Who knows? And then another one of note is Miss 00:22:53.500 --> 00:22:56.890 Amy O 'Grady. right from the usa the executive 00:22:56.890 --> 00:23:00.230 director of women in hvacr um don't quote me 00:23:00.230 --> 00:23:02.910 on this but i believe that amy was also the first 00:23:02.910 --> 00:23:06.390 full -time executive director of women in hvacr 00:23:06.390 --> 00:23:10.509 um Yeah, I believe I read that as well. So she 00:23:10.509 --> 00:23:12.569 leads the national initiatives, obviously, in 00:23:12.569 --> 00:23:14.970 membership, education, workforce development 00:23:14.970 --> 00:23:17.930 to increase female representation in the HVAC 00:23:17.930 --> 00:23:21.950 trades. She is an icon. I do not know her personally, 00:23:22.130 --> 00:23:24.329 but she is one of the women that I very much 00:23:24.329 --> 00:23:27.410 look up to today and in the present day. And 00:23:27.410 --> 00:23:31.970 then we have Holly Paper. Holly Paper is from 00:23:31.970 --> 00:23:35.750 the USA. She was appointed in 2024 as the first 00:23:35.750 --> 00:23:39.250 female president of Trane's commercial HVAC division. 00:23:39.549 --> 00:23:43.609 And she is a legend. Man, is she a legend. Outspoken, 00:23:43.690 --> 00:23:47.430 very, very strong leadership within this woman. 00:23:47.509 --> 00:23:50.769 And I think that she doesn't necessarily have 00:23:50.769 --> 00:23:54.309 the community where she's at because she's one 00:23:54.309 --> 00:23:57.500 of the only, right, one of the only. presidents 00:23:57.500 --> 00:24:00.900 of a commercial HVAC division at a major manufacturer. 00:24:01.180 --> 00:24:04.359 That's a woman. But I think she's really awesome. 00:24:04.460 --> 00:24:06.420 And the impact that she's made is pioneering 00:24:06.420 --> 00:24:08.440 female leadership in one of the largest HVAC 00:24:08.440 --> 00:24:11.319 corporations in the US. Also, she serves on one 00:24:11.319 --> 00:24:13.400 of the boards, on a lot of the boards, and one 00:24:13.400 --> 00:24:16.480 of them is AHRI. So she's a very smart, very 00:24:16.480 --> 00:24:19.140 intelligent woman that really deeply cares passionately 00:24:19.140 --> 00:24:21.859 about HVAC. And I just thought that that was, 00:24:21.859 --> 00:24:24.200 those were a couple of women that really should 00:24:24.200 --> 00:24:26.759 be shared and talked about. Yeah. And social 00:24:26.759 --> 00:24:30.599 influencer, Jennifer Manzo. How can you forget 00:24:30.599 --> 00:24:32.900 about that? I mean, this is all possible because 00:24:32.900 --> 00:24:35.740 you're out here spreading the good word in society. 00:24:36.000 --> 00:24:38.380 And yeah, we're grateful to have you. Thanks, 00:24:38.460 --> 00:24:40.079 Cliff. There's lots of them. And it's really 00:24:40.079 --> 00:24:42.339 funny because I was looking on chat GPT for some 00:24:42.339 --> 00:24:44.279 that I may not have known about. And I popped 00:24:44.279 --> 00:24:48.420 up on chat GPT. As you should. I just was like, 00:24:48.500 --> 00:24:51.200 are you kidding me? But yeah, influencers, right? 00:24:51.279 --> 00:24:54.579 So now it's always been get our foot in the door. 00:24:54.859 --> 00:24:57.240 If you look at everything I've just said, it's 00:24:57.240 --> 00:25:00.000 always been get the female foot in the proverbial 00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:02.819 HVAC door. And now we're here. And not only are 00:25:02.819 --> 00:25:05.880 we here, but we're widely accepted. I mean, customers, 00:25:06.099 --> 00:25:08.160 yeah, we might have a little trouble here and 00:25:08.160 --> 00:25:11.539 there. But as a whole, and when I say I had a 00:25:11.539 --> 00:25:16.180 terrible entrance into HVAC being a female because 00:25:16.180 --> 00:25:19.460 of my gender. But once I got here and really 00:25:19.460 --> 00:25:21.740 reached out for community, I've received nothing 00:25:21.740 --> 00:25:24.819 but. absolute acceptance and love and dedication 00:25:24.819 --> 00:25:28.559 and encouragement and i think um Now the point 00:25:28.559 --> 00:25:30.819 is not getting in the door. Now is getting everybody 00:25:30.819 --> 00:25:33.000 through that door, holding it wide open and getting 00:25:33.000 --> 00:25:35.799 as many young females as possible, even not young 00:25:35.799 --> 00:25:38.519 females. If you like working with your hands, 00:25:38.599 --> 00:25:40.880 come and join the HVAC trade. Have you heard 00:25:40.880 --> 00:25:43.500 about our Lord and Savior HVAC? Because you will 00:25:43.500 --> 00:25:45.819 make good money, you will have great benefits, 00:25:45.880 --> 00:25:47.859 and you will leave something for your children 00:25:47.859 --> 00:25:49.900 that maybe you wouldn't have been able to before. 00:25:49.960 --> 00:25:52.740 I know I wouldn't have. And then on top of that, 00:25:52.819 --> 00:25:54.940 now we have this crazy thing called the internet. 00:25:55.980 --> 00:25:58.400 Now we're not just standing on that soapbox or 00:25:58.400 --> 00:26:01.180 relying on these magazines to, you know, take 00:26:01.180 --> 00:26:03.400 the misses off of our name. We're not we're not 00:26:03.400 --> 00:26:05.759 relying on the scientific papers to say that 00:26:05.759 --> 00:26:07.980 we actually are worth something. Now we have 00:26:07.980 --> 00:26:10.279 the Internet that says every single one of us, 00:26:10.319 --> 00:26:12.160 as long as we can work together, we can do this 00:26:12.160 --> 00:26:14.420 trade. We can make money and we can we can further 00:26:14.420 --> 00:26:16.559 this trade. Right. We can progress this trade 00:26:16.559 --> 00:26:19.769 into the industrial. beast that it needs to be. 00:26:20.089 --> 00:26:22.970 So women like Jess Bannister, right? HVAC Jess. 00:26:23.130 --> 00:26:26.250 She is dragging probably tens of women in every 00:26:26.250 --> 00:26:28.269 week, I would say, just based on her content 00:26:28.269 --> 00:26:31.029 alone. I know I was one of them. I was one of 00:26:31.029 --> 00:26:33.430 them. So I can honestly say that she is doing 00:26:33.430 --> 00:26:35.990 a killer job. She's Canadian. She's part of Canadian 00:26:35.990 --> 00:26:38.589 Women in HVAC. She's a great content creator. 00:26:38.710 --> 00:26:40.390 She's an apprentice. She works for her dad's 00:26:40.390 --> 00:26:42.029 company. She's out there in the field every day. 00:26:42.069 --> 00:26:44.509 She's amazing. And then we have, you know, obviously 00:26:44.509 --> 00:26:49.440 Renee from ESCO. in the education without renee 00:26:49.440 --> 00:26:52.559 and renee is gonna like she's gonna be like she's 00:26:52.559 --> 00:26:54.180 like you're talking about me in a podcast what 00:26:54.180 --> 00:26:57.160 are you doing i can't say enough about renee 00:26:57.160 --> 00:27:00.880 would i have dared to teach at esco last year 00:27:00.880 --> 00:27:03.539 probably not would i have said you know i could 00:27:03.539 --> 00:27:06.339 reach a level of edu in the education space that 00:27:06.339 --> 00:27:08.539 i have reached without renee having already done 00:27:08.539 --> 00:27:10.680 it probably not that's about that representation 00:27:10.680 --> 00:27:13.380 when women see other women doing great things 00:27:13.380 --> 00:27:16.559 we want to join in right so yeah i just uh i 00:27:16.559 --> 00:27:18.539 wanted to to bring a little bit of the female 00:27:18.539 --> 00:27:21.759 razzle dazzle to the show but also to thank esco 00:27:21.759 --> 00:27:24.500 for their absolute inclusion of women i mean 00:27:24.500 --> 00:27:27.519 there is really no bigger entity including women 00:27:27.519 --> 00:27:29.799 in the hvac space right now so thank you guys 00:27:30.490 --> 00:27:32.170 We're so grateful for it. And you know, you're 00:27:32.170 --> 00:27:34.230 right. I wouldn't even be here if it wasn't for 00:27:34.230 --> 00:27:36.740 Renee. Honestly, my career would not be doing 00:27:36.740 --> 00:27:38.880 what it is doing if it wasn't for Renee. It was 00:27:38.880 --> 00:27:43.799 her idea for me to join the team and to do social 00:27:43.799 --> 00:27:46.619 awareness for ESCO and to do the live show and 00:27:46.619 --> 00:27:50.240 podcast. I mean, it is literally, it is the brains 00:27:50.240 --> 00:27:53.559 behind what we're doing. And so, yeah, I am so 00:27:53.559 --> 00:27:55.640 glad that you spent some time with us diving 00:27:55.640 --> 00:27:58.019 into the history as well as the present with 00:27:58.019 --> 00:28:00.779 women and HVACR and just the trades in general. 00:28:00.940 --> 00:28:02.819 And I look forward to a lot of these conversations. 00:28:02.980 --> 00:28:04.700 I hope it opens people's minds. eyes a little 00:28:04.700 --> 00:28:07.220 bit and went, man, I guess I've been, I've been 00:28:07.220 --> 00:28:09.500 missing this boat for a long time. And I'm glad 00:28:09.500 --> 00:28:12.359 that I know a little bit more now. Yeah, I agree. 00:28:13.680 --> 00:28:15.519 Cool. Well, thank you so much for joining us. 00:28:15.559 --> 00:28:17.380 We appreciate you taking the time to hang out 00:28:17.380 --> 00:28:19.619 and I look forward to seeing you soon. Of course. 00:28:19.640 --> 00:28:20.180 Thanks Cliff.